Re: Homeschooling?

[EnochEmery251]

It's very unpopular to be against school. It happens very often where somebody will become agitated when you imply school isn't necessary or desirable. High schoolers are what I'm thinking of right now, as I'm in high school. It saddens me that so many are virulent defenders of school. I just had a particularly bad day at school, and my local friends are no help in that area.

[ninjafretshadow]

you prison mataphor.this happens at labor jobs.''prison lifestyle''.honor among theives[if your in that group.no snitching.sneaking from the man.higharchy.who raises kids in public schools.where does entertainment trends come from.[thug life]baggy pants.were did this come from.ahh i should make my own vid.

[DaLeftLibertarian]

I sort of agree with you on your views on public schools, but remember that prisons doesn't represent the average person since most of the persons there got some moral issues and are more violent than the average indiviudal.

[UnhealthySalad]

While I feel somewhat as you do, I wouldn't say that people are DEformed in public school. I don't believe in the dichotomy of "natural" and "unnatural" social development. If I did, then I'd side with those who say that the home schooled are the ones that are deformed, as public schooled outnumber all others. But as I said, I don't think that way. Public schooling is just as "perverse" as any other way, i.e. it's not. But I don't agree with it, I didn't like it when I was there etc. etc.

[givebirthathome]

A bit of further information-- even though schools do make most of their inmates crazy, my experience of several homeschooled children is that when they went to school, they tended to be quite popular. They're not wet behind the ears about social interaction! But particularly if "unschooled", these kids tend to be quite confident, and fun to be around and people find that attractive.

[IndividualAutonomy]

excellent

[DaveDoggOwns]

The whole socialization against homeschooling is bullshit. I became less and less sociable the longer I stayed in school because of all the anti-social people around who will put you down as soon as you make a mistake.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Why are you impying that a child relationship to his/her parents is not like a prison? Both public schooling and homeschooling are prisons. The only difference is who is guarding your cell.

[XOmniverse]

I don't think its necessarily a prison at home for a child. Depends on whether the parents are any good.

[UnschoolingEagle]

Actually Dave I somewhat agree with you. When I watch shows like Nanny 911, your read various parenting forums, everything about parenting these days is all about control. Sure, parents may hit less then they used to, but they have just moved to more psychological bullying. Dave you should look up radical Unschooling, it's great and I feel the best type of relationship between parent/child.

[FrailHumanCondition]

I agree with this, and have had the exact same feelings during my years of state schooling.

[Individualism101]

You're a strong thinker xomniverse. I think we've all got PTSD from our "public school" prison terms.

[danielsondanielson]

The other thing about education is, that various people do various life careers. Many will end up in large companies, in large govermental organisations or agencies, in large hospitals, in the military, or, indeed, possibly also in jails. In such places they may be able to benefit of various depraved habits and abusive models of social interaction they will have learnt and assumed during their f***ed up education in public schools. Who knows...

[FatGermanBastard]

It's just wrong to say the experience is the same for everyone at public school or that it is similar to prison. Just because you didn't get along in public school doesn't mean nobody gets along or at least doesn't get along in any good way. I for one never had much of a problem with any of the other kids. I hated some aspects of school (grades, sports) but as far as the social interaction is concerned it was fine for me.

[DeraJa]

You have accused an awful lot from a very short video. Do you think you are being a bit presumptuous?

[XOmniverse]

No. I think public school does this to everyone, including myself.

[DeraJa]

I don't think you can make blanket statements like that though. Everyone reacts to different environments differently. It may tend to make people like that but the tone of your video is accusatory, and absolutist. For example, Some people go to prison, and come out with degrees in higher education. There are people like Stanley Williams who was the founder of the cirps, but later was nominated for the Nobel peace prize. You don't know what is going on in someone's head from a 3min vid.

[XOmniverse]

I don't buy into the total psychological subjectivism you're arguing here. Humans are pretty similar, fundamentally. And so are public schools.

[DeraJa]

all I am saying is humans aren't as homogeneous as you seem to think they are. And because of that, you can't say everyone is going to end up in the same place after living through the same experiences. You got a pretty good theory there, but I don't think you have enough information to say to what degree it applies to this guy you are talking to.

[Rose0883]

DJ, while I agree that certainly people will turn out differently even if they were largely raised in the same environment, the environment still* did have large blanket affects on most personalities if you look really closely. This blanket social programmming I'm talking about is a lack of overall empathy for oneself and for other people, and a huge lack of self-knowledge from being raised in an environment where one is told what to do every second of the day.

[Rose0883]

Even if some kids had a decent time in school b/c they never got picked on- they still witnessed other kids getting bullied around and were demeaned by being treated like sheep; all of which HAD to produce an emotional response of repression in regards to themselves and non-empathy for what went on around them. Otherwise, it would make healthy ppl feel depressed that they were forced into this environment like slaves where the ugly get beat up and you're looked at as cattle.

[FatGermanBastard]

But people get bullied in their everyday lifes, too. Isn't it important for kids to learn how to deal with this type of stuff ? Maybe if XO had not been bullied at school they would do it to him at work now...but since he learned to handle it they don't (I assume).

[XOmniverse]

The types of coping mechanisms you end up developing during childhood abuse end up being a major roadblock in the achievement of happiness.

I don't think its important to abuse children so that they can learn to deal with abuse, no. Should we rape children so they learn how to deal with rape?

[FatGermanBastard]

Rape ? Jail ? Man you must have had a horrible time at school ! Of course if someone is violently bullied I would agree that home schooling is an alternative for that specific person and I would emigrate to a country that allowed home schooling if it happened to my (yet unborn) kids.

Under regular circumstances I would absolutely send my kids to public school though and I do think it's important for kids to learn how to ward off mockeries unless they hopelessly can't cope with it at all.

[XOmniverse]

Ok, so why should children learn to cope with mockery by being mocked, but not learn to cop with rape by being raped?

[FatGermanBastard]

Just like you have to box in order to learn boxing but you don't have to get shot in order to learn to shoot a gun.

Rape is not something the average adult has to deal with and being raped is not helpful in learning how to defend against rape.

Mockery is something many adults experience if they have not learned how to defend against it. The only way to learn to defend against it is by practicing it and making experiences.

[XOmniverse]

So if rape were commonplace, being raped would be useful for learning how to deal with being raped?

[FatGermanBastard]

No XO ! As I said in my last comment: Rape is not an efficient method to learn how to defend against rape but the only way to learn how to defend against mockery is by practicing your behaviour when you experience the situation.

In order to learn boxing you need to receive punches.

But in order to learn shooting you don't need to be shot.

There are situations that can only be prepared for theoretically (rape defense). Others are more efficiently learned practically (mocking defense).

[FatGermanBastard]

Note: When I wrote "practicing it" I didn't mean "by mocking others" but I meant "by defending when others mock you".

[XOmniverse]

Ok, so to use your boxing example.

If having your ass kicked was a common occurrence, would getting your ass kicked be a positive thing?

[FatGermanBastard]

There are two differences between being raped/ass kicked and being mocked:

- The probability of being confronted with the threat.

- The efficiency of the method of defense.

Mockery: High probability to be confronted with / Experiencing such situations: Efficient method to train defense.

Rape: Low probability to be confronted with / Being raped: Inefficient method to train defense.

That's why I don't agree with your example.

[XOmniverse]

I presented a scenario in which getting your ass kicked was a common occurrence. Care to answer my question?

[FatGermanBastard]

Eventhough learning a defense against a common threat has pragmatic value having your ass kicked is not an efficient method to learn how to defend against it.

Therefore being confronted with such a situation would not have any pragmatic value.

[XOmniverse]

See, the fundamental problem with your argument is that you haven't presented a reason that being mocked is necessary to learn how to cope with being mocked other than "being mocked is likely to happen."

When I apply the same logic to rape, being physically beaten, etc. the absurdity of it becomes obvious.

This notion that abuse is somehow GOOD FOR YOU because it helps you deal with abuse is absurd on its face. You might as well eat poison to learn how to deal with being poisoned.

[FatGermanBastard]

No I never argued that being mocked is an efficient method of learning how to cope with it BECAUSE being mocked is likely to happen.

I didn't argue that one claim is supposed to justify the other.

These were two different claims:

Claim one: It is useful to be prepared for a situation which is likely to happen.

Claim two: Being confronted with mockery is an efficient method of preparing against it.

I never claimed that there is an explanatory relationship between these two claims.

[XOmniverse]

Why is being confronted with mockery an efficient method for preparing against it, but being confronted with rape not? What is unique about mockery?

[FatGermanBastard]

Well because getting others to respect you is a social skill that requires personal experience. Can you think of another method to learn social skills than by making personal experience ?

Being raped is not an efficient method for learning how to defend against it because the profit/loss ratio is bad and more efficient methods with a better profit/loss ratio are available (such as learning martial arts).

[XOmniverse]

I don't think the type of people who mock people for no good reason are the type of people you should be driven to earn the respect of.

[FatGermanBastard]

Problem: Contact with such people can not be entirely avoided. Having the social skill to turn a negative relationship into a neutral one does have pragmatic value and is a necessity under certain circumstances and experience is required to achieve this skill.

[DeraJa]

that just sounds like repressing your emotions. It is like saying suck in up, and deal with it, because you ain't finding anything better. Somewhat depressing.

[Rose0883]

FGB: I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your premise that 1. it can be dealt with by experiencing being mocked and building resistance or comebacks to it, and 2. that it is good to make something neutral btwn you and someone who has mocked you w/out them apologizing for it. If parents want to teach their kids to know that they are good, and that other ppl are jerks who mock, and teach them how to defend themselves should the situation arise, then that's great parenting.

[Rose0883]

But, (working from the premise that there are other options) you don't throw your kid in a lion's cage and say 'this is going to help you in the real world' w/out giving him proper training beforehand and having a damn good reason why he has to fight lions in the future. At this point, ppl try to use the argument that "it's the real world that we are going to have to deal w/these ppl", and this is the reason most ppl are so miserable- they work w/jerks and ppl they dislike who bring them down.

[Rose0883]

I sincerely see that this is most if not every work situation these days, but it is not a 'reality' that I recognize as inevitable- the goal should be to stay away from aweful ppl so you can be as happy as possible. I don't think doing public school training for 12 yrs is a healthy way (or a sufficient use of time) to prepare for such situations. If you ignore a dislike for someone, you are saying 'my experience in this scenario is not accurate or valid', and betraying your own emotions imo.

[WeAreDevo456]

Well said. I've learned long ago that trying to earn the respect of those who mock you is almost impossible and often not even worth the effort. Once you've been deemed "uncool" by the student body, you're practically fucked forever.

[Rose0883]

I truly believe the best way to help a child learn to ward off mockeries is to show him that he is a respectable, valuable human being well deserving of proper respect- his own self respect will lead him to defend himself to the death. That, along with your words of advice, would be plenty enough preparation for the real world. But I don't think there is such a thing as public school 'under regulard circumstances'- just b/c your kid doesn't get beat, it doesn't make the place ok to put him in.

[FatGermanBastard]

I think it's a combination of both. Self esteem without experience is not sufficient and experience without self esteem is not going to work either.

I think kids mocking each other is like baby tigers biting each other. It's a normal element of their development. They are testing out how far they can go. Sure...there are kids who arouse the others' hunting instinct and then they receive serious bites and it's all fucked up for them. That's survival of the fittest. Sad but true.

[Rose0883]

The support and love of parents IS experience of strength and actual self-worth- of course when a person experiences a jerk irl, it will be new practice ground, but it's bullshit to say that it's 'survival of the fittest'- it's only survival of the fittest when uninterested parents throw their kids into horrible state run institutions where things run like a power hierarchy. That's not real life, thats a hell you are taught to believe you need to 'put up with' instead of finding alternatives.

[Rose0883]

And trust me, being the victim of a lot of teasing myself, it's not as meaningless as ' little tigers biting each other'- it's real, and it hurts, and it doesn't leave you until you work to get rid of it. Being sent to public school turns you into a very cold person, accepting of mistreatment if it fits into your placement in the hierarchy, when it's impossible to respect yourself if you let 'the boss' treat you like crap just b/c you need to to keep your job. This is most ppl's 'reality'.

[FatGermanBastard]

For the average kid it really is just harmless play. It all comes down to whether you present yourself as another playing tiger or as prey. Once they see you as prey you are fucked. And before you are telling me: "Kids shouldn't have to be like tigers if that's not what they are" - well yeah but welcome to reality. The truth may hurt but it's the only one you get.

[FatGermanBastard]

Jerks are everywhere - at work, university, in public offices or when you need to find a parking lot on a busy day. If you can't deal with that you are going to have a hard time in life. One needs to learn to deal with jerks. Running away from reality as a kid will not work.

[Rose0883]

You keep missing what I'm saying- my point is that I think your reality is inaccurate as far as kid's natural nature. They become like that from being PUT in bad environments, and no it is not reality to have to deal with these ppl your entire life. Sometimes sure, you will deal with jerks, and you can deal with that when the time comes, but to me saying 'that's why public school is useful!' is a copout b/c thats sure as hell not the only way to learn to deal with jerks.

[FatGermanBastard]

1. I'm not missing what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.

2. I didn't say public schools are the only place to learn it. But to oppose public schools based on the fact that children encounter challenging situations is not a convincing argument at all IMO.

3. It's not reality to have to deal with those people ? Statistics show that 1 in 6 employees are victims of workplace bullying in the USA. How can you say it's not reality ??

[Rose0883]

Not only by sending them to public schools are you basically saying you would rather be rid of them for convenience, but you are actually allowing them to be put in environments where not only are they constantly degraded and belittled by teachers, but have to suffer being around emotionally diseased peers who go through the same thing and take it out on each other. And no it's not a reality to force yourself into similar environments like school your entire life, even if those places do exist.

[Rose0883]

For ex. working for yourself like I do- yes I encounter jerks every once in a while and it's no big deal, but it's not the bulk of my environment whatsoever. Obviously my argument is not that you should oppose public schools b/c a child has to face a challenging situation every now and then, but that the entire environment is overall sick and no place for a kid to be, and that there are few good reasons for parents to send them there since there are alternatives.

[Rose0883]

I don't mean to get upset at you, but overall it doesn't sound like you have much empathy for children and the state of their emotions, and I can't have much empathy for that. I imagine you having kids in the future, and it really doesn't seem like you will take their emotions seriously at all, but rather consider it 'puppy hurt' or whatever you might label it, and that is just killer and will wreak emotional havoc on your kids from time to come, along with making them feel very alone.

[FatGermanBastard]

I said in a previous post I would even emigrate and leave the country to home school my kids if the kid proved to be hopelessly unable to cope with such situations. I think you are just frustrated because I'm not adapting your opinion. Dealing with this type of frustration is something that requires experience as well so hopefully you can make something out of this. You can't expect someone to take you seriously if you are making judgements about a person you don't know in the slightest.

[FatGermanBastard]

Are you suggesting that everyone should get self employed in order to avoid challenging social situations ? Or in other words: Adjust their entire lifestyle to avoid confrontation with difficult people ? That's exactly what I want to protect my kids from. I don't want my kids to lock themselves away and hide from the outer world.

[Rose0883]

You not adapting my opinion is definitely part of the frustration- I keep offering solutions, and even many times agreeing with your points, yet it doesn't seem like you're curious at all to come to a helpful conclusion in this debate. It's perfectly appropriate to make judgements about you from the current tradjectory of your personality- if you wont do what I said then that's great and you will be a better parent for it, but theres no issue about me being 'taken seriously' from what I've said.

[Rose0883]

"Dealing with frustration is something that requires experience as well so hopefully you can make something out of this"

Come on buddy... don't go all 'wise parent' on me here. I have no problem being open about my frustration. Again, you are strawmanning me to say that I am suggesting ppl avoid any confrontation, when my argument is that there is no reason to place yourself in an overall twisted environment when there are other much more positive options, like homeschooling or unschooling.

[FatGermanBastard]

If a regular school and a regular job are "twisted environments" then that already covers what about 85% of the people spend most of their time with so I'm not making a straw man argument. Those limitations you impose on yourself seem pretty heavy to me.

[UnschoolingEagle]

@FatGermanBastard If I encountered bullying by a fellow employee or employer, I would first confront them, then if that fails I would try to get them removed, then I quit. I have yet to get to the quitting. By the way, this wasn't always my view, I used to just sit and take it, because that was my only option in school. If I told on them, I got mocked by all my peers. If I defended myself, I got in trouble by teachers. School is not good for teaching how to handle those situations.

[FatGermanBastard]

Bullying can occur in very subtle ways. Ways that you can't get someone fired for. Do you think quitting your job and running away is a good solution ? I don't think it is.

[UnschoolingEagle]

Confronting them works. If nothing is done then I quit and no longer sit their and take abuse. You act as if I ran away at first sign of danger. After taking every non-violent approach the only option is to leave. If I can't get them fired because of "subtle" bullying and I can't get them to stop through non-violent communication, what should I do? Sit there and take it like I was always told to do? No I respect myself too much to allow someone to "bully" me so I quit and find another job.

[UnschoolingEagle]

Like I said though, I have never had to quit because of "work bullies". Talking to them, or if worse comes to worse, talking to a higher up always works. Like I said though, school teaches you to sit there and take it, because confronting them gets you in trouble and telling on them gets you in trouble with peers.

[FatGermanBastard]

I think such situations need to be avoided upfront. In the beginning when someone is new people are always careful. The first time someone makes fun of you you need to make it clear that you are not accepting this type of behaviour. If you do that consequently such behaviour will never get established. Of course if everyone else is already used to making fun of you it's too late. New colleagues will adapt the behaviour.

[Rose0883]

Hell yeah it's a good solution- if you wrestle in mud with a pig, the only outcome is that the both of you get dirty- except the pig actually enjoys it and your life is more miserable. You cannot stay in the kind of degrading environments you are talking about and be truly happy imo. I don't disagree with defending yourself, I disagree with power hierarchies if you can avoid them, which everyone should try to do b/c they aren't conducive to happiness.

[FatGermanBastard]

I have a question for you. When I am thinking of all the situations where I meet jerks the idea of avoiding such situations seems a serious limitation of my freedom to me. By letting them dictate what places I go to and what type of job I have I would be giving them way more power than they deserve.

So my question: Do you truly feel free ? Actually I don't even want an answer. Just answer to yourself and be honest with yourself.

[Rose0883]

I will definitely answer that for you: Yes.

In fact, I feel more free with the knowledge that I have the option of making sure I'm respected in whatever environment I'm in, or leaving. I don't even think you FGB actually stand up to ppl as much as this convo dictates, b/c if you did you would get fired since we both agree that most work places have shitty ppl, meaning shitty bosses that you have to put up with mistreatment from.

[Rose0883]

That's incredibly more free than feeling the need to submit myself to such places just b/c that's the bulk of what's available. How about making your own options? If a person is smart then they will figure out a way to keep themselves respected, b/c it is logically impossible if you have to kiss the boss's ass all the time out of worry for any rhyme or reason he could come up with to fire you.

[FatGermanBastard]

Kissing ass is the exact opposite of what I am talking about. Kissing ass is when you run away and hide from them and let them chose your school and job for you and leave the field to them. Because you hide and run jerks rule the world.

What if Martin Luther King would have ran away and avoided dealing with jerks ?

What if Ghandi would have avoided dealing with jerks ?

What if Nelson Mandela would just have ran away and avoided dealing with jerks ?

Whose ass did these guys kiss ?

[Rose0883]

Well props if you get away with not doing that, I just don't see how it's possible when a boss (who is usually a jerk) is the final arbiter of what you can or can't say, unless you aren't worried about being fired.

Now we're closer to the same page though- Nelson Mandela went to jail for speaking out. If you are saying you're willing to make sacrifices such as possibly losing your job as a means of retaining your respect them I fully support you. That's the leverage I've always held.

[Rose0883]

If you can pull it off, meaning even your boss wouldn't dare disrespect you, then I think you've got a good thing- it's just usually impossible from my perspective given how 85% of workplaces run, as you said.

I think I'm a million times more free than the average person who usually has to fold one way or another to the nature of their boss. I can go where I want and say what I want, while avoiding situations that I just have no desire to be in at all, like a corporate workplace for ex.

[FatGermanBastard]

I'm self employed too. I have no problem with you being self employed. Only with your seeing it as a way to avoid difficult interaction.

I used to work in an office. They bullied each other a lot but they never had a problem with me and I did not have to kiss any asses for that. I just talked to them at eye level. I think people only kiss asses to compensate their lack of social skill. Of course some bosses are just idiots. I would quit such a job, too. That's not what I mean.

[FatGermanBastard]

People kiss their bosses asses because they lack the ability to deal with jerks.

Don't you think people like King, Ghandi or Mandela were inspired to do what they did because they were mocked and hated it and don't you think they succeeded in what they did because they learned efficient strategies to deal with jerks in their everyday lifes.

What if Mandela had said: "Dealing with jerks is too painful. I'll get self employed, home school my kids and put a big bubble around me."

[Rose0883]

Then he overall would have been a happier man, privately enjoying his life, and someone else would have stepped up to the plate and made the sacrifice to deal with the shit he had to for whatever reason inspired them. It's not too painful, it's unideal to happiness. Aside from that, I even hold the view that by pulling out, you are in fact fighting with indifference and winning, since the person who is the most happy overall is the person who wins in the end.

[Rose0883]

Also, I actually believe that we would have way more people speaking out against mistreatment if ppl were raised in healthier environments to begin with. They would recognize mistreatment much faster since they never internalized other ppl's criticisms from a young age, and would be much quicker to speak out against it in their everyday lives, eventually making better environments for everyone by being better people who treat others and themselves with much respect.

[FatGermanBastard]

White people were raised in healthier environments than blacks at the time of slavery and Apartheid. But who stood up against it ? King, Mandela, Malcom X. I could give you thousands of examples that refute your claim.

[Rose0883]

No no, from my perspective it way supports my claim, not refutes it- whites were raised during that time to think slavery was the norm and ok. If they were raised in what I call a *good* environment, they would have been appalled at the mistreatment. Also, I don't appreciate the belittling with the 'rand nonsense' comment- you are starting to resort to degrading my intelligence to prove your points, w/out an understanding of what I do or don't believe about Rand's philosophy.

[FatGermanBastard]

Part 1:

No your argument was that if someone is raised as a free person who is treated like a valuable being his ability to recognize abuse would be better developed and they would be more encouraged to fight against it.

So let's compare:

1. Blacks and whites both were raised with the same indoctrination.

2. Blacks were treated like shit. They were not treated as valuable beings.

3. Whites were treated as valuable beings.

[FatGermanBastard]

Part 2:

So that means that the only difference between blacks and whites was that whites were treated good and blacks were treated bad. Both were indoctrinated. If your theory was true whites would be more likely to recognize their indoctrination and stand up against it. But history has shown that this was not the case.

Nobody understands abuse as well as the person being abused.

[Rose0883]

Right, whites were taught they were valuable, and taught that blacks were *not*- thus my point stands. If whites were taught to treat ppl with equal respect, which would be considered a good environment with good values, then they would recognize the hypocrisy and abuse. The point is that they were *not* raised with good values, they were raised in a racist environment.

[FatGermanBastard]

Yes and blacks were taugth whites are valuable and blacks are not too plus they were treated badly.

So by your line of reasoning you'd rather expect whites to see the incorrect indoctrination, wouldn't you ?

I mean both blacks and white were not raised with good values. Both were raised in a racist environment. Though whites treated good and blacks bad so you'd expect whites to see that the values they are raised with are bad first, not the blacks, wouldn't you ?

[Rose0883]

With all intents and purposes of explaining the school environment, kids are essentially taught to be 'racist-like' against those who don't fit in, those who are weak, etc., and that kind of thing is what is responsible for power hierarchies.

I think this will be my last comment. You are fighting against me and we aren't getting anywhere. I want to have conversations w/ppl where they are interested in hearing my ideas instead of combatting them, otherwise there's no point.

[FatGermanBastard]

But blacks and whites were both told this. If two groups are subject to the same indoctrination and one group is treated as valuable and good while the other group is not treated as valuable then by your logic you would expect those that are treated as valuable to recognize their incorrect indoctrination first. But the opposite happened. The blacks - despite being subject to the same indoctrination - recognized it first.

I'm interested in your ideas. Just not adapting them unless I agree.

[FatGermanBastard]

Ah you don't know Mandela if that's what you believe. Do you think Mandela would have been a happy man sitting in his backyard collecting stamps ? Forget all the nonsense you learned in Ayn Rand books for a second. Couldn't it be that the man needed to sacrifice himself in order to pursue his personal happiness ?

For me Mandela is a winner. He pursued his individuality, his self fulfilment without compromise. I am sure the man is way more happy than we ever will be.

[Rose0883]

The only way a person should sacrifice themselves for some larger goal like King or Ghandi is if living with the alternative is even worse- that still, is working within what is and isn't in their best interest.

If Mandela found true fulfillment in his large accomplishments, then I think that's great, though I'm not sure I'd agree that he was happier than anyone I'd compare him to. I think we many times have a false idealization of the overall happiness of ppl who are considered 'heroes'.

[FatGermanBastard]

I apologize if my comment about Rand offended you. Seeing you are Aaron's girlfriend (?) and XO's friend and you made a positive review about an Ayn Rand book I thought you must belive in her ideas about self sacrifice (that are really poor IMO).

[FatGermanBastard]

Google for CNN's article named "Nelson Mandela has one regret". As his wife says - quote:

"Absolutely. More than comfortable. He is so happy with himself. At the end of his life also he realizes, although he doesn't express it. He realized that he achieved the things he had as goals in life."

and

"Yeah, really. It's peace, fulfillment. Best way to characterize it is to be at peace with himself, but also at peace with the world"

To me (even as a moral nihilist) it makes perfect sense.

[skater3shefik]

im public schooled and i met some homeschoolers who are 10X way more outgoing then me.

home schooling dosent affect you social life, unless if you dont even go outside, wich alot homeschoolers do.

i dont like public school.... too many distraction (girls,friends, piece of string... because teacher is boring as fuck}

and this one teacher is too old to even work their..... she always loses my papers... so i dont even bother to do the work..

and its really stressful too..

[PacifistCirclePit]

i don't think homeschooling is right for everyone though, some people get stomped and picked on at home more than during school. i think it depends on your personality and your family at home.

[DeraJa]

oh course if someone has dumb shit parents they shouldn't be homeschooling. What is most important to me, is finding practical alternatives to public schooling. Homeschooling is simply one strategy.

[PacifistCirclePit]

I agree, I'm just ignorant to other alternatives.

[PacifistCirclePit]

Primary school (elementary) for me did nothing other than to cram religion down my throat which my father was not aware of and hes an atheist. high school just messed up any self esteem and confidence i had and i grew to become very socially awkward. its only since i changed schools that i had any ounce of confidence back. however, instead of raging paramilitary sympathizers i got stuck up arrogant drones. but drones are easier to put up with. i should have been home schooled.

[OpineTime]

Public school was very prison like, students fighting teachers, gangs, weaker or smarter kids bullied, weapons being sneaked around, barely edible lunch.

My first year in public junior high school I witnessed a student get his skull banged in with the sharp end of a hammer, two girls ripping out each other earrings while fighting, and countless children (including myself) robbed by older students. I also saw quite a bit of drug use, there were actually 12 year old drug dealers.

[FatGermanBastard]

If my parents had home schooled me I would not be able to write this comment since I wouldn't be able to speak English - my parents don't speak a word of English. My math skills would be limited to multiplication up to 10. Sure I hated it sometimes but I owe a lot to public school.

If I imagine the average American or European parent educating their kids themselves I bet shows like "America's Next Top Hooker" would sell even better and hardly anyone would know what a book is.

[nadeau]

@FatGermanBastard

The why do home school kids always win those spelling bees. Maybe you're parents were stupid because they went to government run schools.

[FatGermanBastard]

No they were uneducated (not stupid) because their parents were farmers and in the 1960s farmers believed that children need to work at the farm rather than waste time doing homework and learning for school (which was considered laziness).

[Rose0883]

I think I understand your concern FGB, but even if there was fundamental learning that you got out of public school, this doesn't speak against the actual emotional difficulties one would go through by being sent there at all. Besides, there are plenty of alternatives where one can still learn more than their parents in a much safer environment. That, or one's parents should at LEAST offer to pay for therapy once their kid is old enough to realize what problems being sent to school created.

[FatGermanBastard]

I don't think there would have been an alternative for me. If your parents have no money and no education what alternatives do you have ?

[XxxNuMbxxX0301]

Then Germany would be a more popular tourist attraction than it currently is. After all, Germany is essentially a massive whore-house.

[RowanFortuneWood]

This is a well argued response. I must say I am very impressed by the array of videos made in answer to ubergossen's question. It is certainly a good thing to have so many videos uploaded to YouTube discussing home-education and informing more people of the option.

[fede2]

schools can be abusive but so can homes as far as i'm concerned. i don't believe there's an inherent upper-hand in either one. it depends on what sore of person you are and the sort of enviornment under which you function better.

[baxterandcotton]

I'm a crim. justice major (not something I recommend to fellow anarchists, unless you don't mind being in a fit of rage in every class). My professors frequently use public schools as models for creating "pro-social" people. I don't know what planet they are from.The worst part is that both correctional facilities and schools offer services which they know are damaging to students/inmates. EX, almost all schools offer DARE, but it is criminogenic. It increases the likelihood of drug use.

[baxterandcotton]

Incarceration facilities are inherently criminogenic, and there are some great studies on why incarceration increases recidivism. Heck, even you graduating early is very much part of incarceration culture- its like parole. And when you have these contrived experiences like incarceration or traditional school it is very hard to adjust to life when they are over- graduation or release from incarceration, causing people stress. The parallels just go on and on.

[drew335533]

I think the horrible nature in public schools for because because the kids are forced to go to school there. There usually isn't any other kind of school for them to go to. Also, when a kid tries to defend themselves from bullying, they are usually shut down by the teacher for doing so. It creates an atmosphere where kids that stand up for themselves are looked down upon and are scared for questoning the teacher.

[drew335533]

In all honesty, I think it can be done sucesfully in private, becaues this creates more areas for the kids to go. Most problems exist with public schools because there is no other place for the kids to go and thus they have to stay there. Private schools sometimes can be just as bad, but there are a few that don't avocate the atmosphere a student standing up for themselves and questining the teacher.

[ubergossen]

I thanks for the video response. I made a follow up video that actually talked about the issue a little, if you have time to check it out.

And I've experienced all of the prison things you talked about in elementary school, apart from being raped.

[Stargazer5781]

GREAT job!

[Hatesfury08]

I'm totally going to home school my kids.

[Mastikator]

Why not unschool them? :P

[RationalDischarge]

VERY insightful video!

I'm never going to subject a child of mine to the spirit-crushing Kinder-Gulags.