Kata TOMARI PASSAI (Old style) - Okinawa Shorinjiryu

[uminchu7th]

@okinawashorinryu: Sensei was getting devious in his old age. I knew a longtime student of Soken sensei also who said Soken sensei acted the same way.. when he got older, everyone was coming to his house at any hour, so he kept his redbelt and gi ready to take a photo to get them away from him. I actually think Pat McCarty started bullshitting people with photos first back in the '80s.

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@uminchu7th Yeah, I asked Sensei about McCarthy... He said he never heard about him ever before... Sensei didn't care about the foreign visitors to his dojo and just cared about his close students...

[uminchu7th]

@okinawashorinryu, there was the perkins group that came and kept taking photo's and interviewing and that french guy from shotokan, but I'm not sure who the guy was who was from England or where ever who sent that photo sensei was confused over, with the shorinji ryu patch on the karate uniforms.. do you remember it?

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@uminchu7th Yeah, I remember... The guy sent a photo of his group to our dojo with our patch, even though he knew he wasn't allowed. I had a good laugh... They hold a sign "Great Britain" but we didn't have a dojo there, and Joen-sensei asked me "Who's this guy?" and I told him... And Sensei never mentioned him ever again..

I think he was called himself "Harry Davis".. A guy who runned a piracy radio years ago... With anti-US propaganda and ended up on the Feds list..

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@uminchu7th He begun his karate practise in the late 1990s... Joshinmon as I recall... I met Ikeda Hoshu and his daughter once.. They didn't like this guy.. I think he was cut off by the help of a guy that lives in Tokyo...Now he just try to bother people by his rude behaviour...

[uminchu7th]

Shoshin Nagamine learned the way Arakaki and Shimabukuro learned from Kyan sensei back in early 1920's then learned from Kyan sensei direct in mid 1930's but said he decided to preserve the old way. I'd have a very hard time believing 20 yr old students of Kyan sensei would have changed the Passai, Chinto and Kusanku of someone as respected as Kyan sensei, especially back in them days. Kyan sensei taught his students differently at different times. He changed (developed) the kata.

[hughradcaux]

@uminchu7th "I'd have a very hard time believing 20 yr old students of Kyan sensei would have changed the Passai, Chinto and Kusanku of someone as respected as Kyan sensei".Exactly, especially by one who told me he was "shocked" when he saw personal variations (ie even vertical fist of Tatsuo and 3/4 fist of Zenryo) transmitted post war. JN said this was specifically against what Kyan had said about kata should be transmitted neutrally (ie never with shosho or gyosho personal variations)

[uminchu7th]

I practiced Matsubayashi ryu(5th dan) for 20 yrs prior to training at Joen Nakazato's dojo (7th dan) in Chinen, Oki, I also practice Uechi ryu (6th dan) all in Okinawa where I still live. What happened in the 60's, I don't know but Joen sensei or seniors of 40 yrs + in sensei's dojo never talked of changes to any kata. My theory is Kyan taught both slightly different, and he taught Arakaki and Shimabukuro different in the 1920's. Shoshin Nagamine eludes to this in his book on Okinawan masters.

[hughradcaux]

@uminchu7th I specifically asked Joen sensei because Seibukan accused him of changing kata. He said he Zenryo (and Tatsuo) were taught the same kata by Kyan, and that the issue of change as accused by Seibukan was on the basis of when they saw him doing Zenryo's version. He said he was confident to change it back because unlike Zenryo, JN had continued practice while a POW and post war. Being captured by the British he was allowed to practice karate, unlike those on Okinawa or under US control

[uminchu7th]

"Okinawashorinjiryu" is a direct student of Joen Nakazato, there is no other non okinawan/japanese blooded student of Joen Nakazato. I am also a direct student of Joen Nakazato, I am of half Okinawan decent on my mothers side, and speak Japanese. Sensei spoke no english and hated "business karate men" from overseas that wanted interviews. Some even wore his patch, and claim lineage to him. Many interviewers misquoted him since they simply didn't understand each other.

[hughradcaux]

@uminchu7th Thats not the case here. It was very important to understand what the basis of Seibukan's claims were about JN changing kata. He said at its root was Zenryo being his sempai and so when they joined in 50s JN went along despite ZS changes, but when the group split he "had confidence" to revert to the way Kyan taught it. I think its to his credit that he changed it back from what he saw as "slight changes" made by Zenryo and that he explained plausibly why THEY THINK he changed kata

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux Directly after WWII, Joen-sensei where not in Okinawa. He were in southern part of Japan. When he returned to Okinawa and started to teach in the 1950s, the kata were not Zenyo-style. I have several photos from 1950s to show the opposite of what you say, and I hope that I can publish them some day. You don't need to respond to this anymore. It's useless, because this thread will just continue forever. If you have something more to say, then email me instead.

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux Furthermore, Joen-sensei did not speak any English at all. Only japanese with an okinawan dialect that made it difficult even for japanese people to understand him sometimes. There must have been an misunderstanding between you and your translator, since you don't speak Japanese yourself.

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux You conducted two interviews with my teacher whom I almost spent a decade training with. It's funny to see how you try to lecture me about the history of my own style. You abuse people, offend them in person and then threaten them that if they respond to it, you gonna do something. It's obvious for anyone reading this post.

[hughradcaux]

@okinawashorinjiryu It's well documented that Nakazato was Zenryo Shimabukuro's #2 in the original Shorinji-ryu group that had Tamotsu as the guy on the mainland, ie. before the Shimabukuro name change to Seibukan. This is WHY JN was overseeing Tamotsu in the first place. Tamotsu had learned the kata from ZS quickly ZS asked JN to check Tamotsu's kata (in Chatan, on Saturdays) When are you going to get it? JOEN NAKAZATO TOLD ME THIS HIMSELF! No one else,no rumor and ..no, sir you WERE NOT there

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux Do you speak Japanese?

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux Joen-sensei where not belonging to Zenryo's group. Tamotsu were a student of Zenryo. It's true Joen-sensei went to Zenryo's place every saturday for one month, to teach only Tokumine nu Kun to Tamotsu. They all chosed the name Shorinji-ryu for Kyan-sensei's Karate, but they all had their own styles of Kyan's karate. Later, Zenryo changed to Shorin-ryu to differ himself from Tamotsu. But Joen-sensei never learned kata from Zenryo, or did it Seibukan way. Never. This is not true.

[hughradcaux]

@okinawashorinjiryu No. Nakazato said the name was his idea but was adopted by the group. I agree Tamotsu was a student of Zenryos and that Zenryo was taught Tokumine by Nakazato. But you are wrong about Nakazato not doing the kata Zenryo's way. He didnt learn kata from Zenryo but did it Zenryo's style post war. He addressed this specifically. This is WHY Seibukan say he changed it. According to JN it was Zenryo which had made some small changes, changes which JN reversed once independent of ZS.

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux I heard different from my teacher Joen-sensei, so I can never agree on what you say. It's useless to continue this topic.

[okinawashorinjiryu]

@hughradcaux I must respond to WHY Joen-sensei in the first place was asked by Zenryo to teach Tokumine nu Kun to Tamotsu. It is because Zenryo did NOT know Tokumine nu Kun. And Joen-sensei himself told this.

He said the reason why Zenryo never learned all the kata properly was that he was busy with his work and family duties and seldom show up at Kyan's house for training. Zenryo begun practise in 1935, and Joen-sensei in 1937, and since '37 Zenryo didn't participate to often in the training

[hughradcaux]

The debate that Nakazato "changed the kata" is more subtle than it appears. Changed from what? to what? Nakazato said this came from joining with fellow Kyan student Zenryo Shimabukuro post war. Zenryo headed the group with Nakazato VP. They did the kata the way Zenryo did it (now called Seibukan) JN said yes he did change it.: from the way Zenryo did it, which he said had had some minor changes made "back to the way I remember Kyan sensei did" saying, "I am confident I have Kyan sensei's kata"

[hughradcaux]

@okinawashorinjiryu. Sir, I'm not sure if you are accusing Joen Nakazato of lying or me. Either way, my comments come directly from interviewing him in person on two different occasions at his home. He was a 2-time Pres. of the largest karate assn Okinawa Renmei, a respected Intangible Cultural Asset designated by the Japan Govt, even Village Mayor, but alas you appear to have bought into a story of someone else, who wasnt personally a student of Kyan, or at least wasnt there at the time.

[ZentokukaiDelaware]

Very similar to Seibukan version.

[SithV1]

Very unique version of Passai/Bassai kata.

[kidesqu]

se reconocen movimientos similares a bassai dai.

[GreedyButler]

Hi Jesse,

Long time listener, first time commenter.

The Tomari no Passai kata above is *very* similar to Chito-ryu Bassai, yet Chito-ryu Bassai is reported to originate from Shuri-te. All of the other Tumari Passai videos I see on youtube more closely resemble Matsumura no Passai, and this is the only one I can find that is so close to the version I am learning in Chito-ryu. What is with the "Old Style" comment in the title of the video?

[KARATEbyJesse]

@GreedyButler It basically means it's more close to the original than 99.9% of the stuff out there. Of course, debate exists whether Nakazato Joen sensei changed/forgot movements etc, but he DID learn this form directly from Kyan Chotoku, the "resurrector" of Tomari-te... ;)

[karatekatatraining]

Great video! This is what I would call " a real tradition karate practise " There is mushin kime in every move :-)

[Goju1990]

Hi Jesse !

I have a question. Have u some videos of Shorei Ryu Katas ? It would be so interesting to see Katas of Shorei Ryu

[KARATEbyJesse]

@Goju1990 Shorei-ryu is generally considered Naha-te (Goju-ryu, Toon-ryu etc), of which there is plenty to find on Youtube! ;) I don't have that much.

[Yamtendo]

Awesome. It's a lot like Tomari Bassai. Weird huh. :D

[NewEnglandBudo]

Real neat job! Plus he keeps the cadence of the kata moving without pretty pauses for the judges!

[feelmychi]

Reminds me of Bassai Dai on *so* many levels!