This is just silly. Anyone who thinks they can't be Christian because what the bible says is too hard already believes in the bible.
Plus, there are those of us who aren't Christian not because there's something special about Christianity but because we're something else. Our religion space is already filled, and we're quite happy where we are. We're not "unbelievers," we just believe in different things.
What on Earth is Mr Piper on about? I know a lot of rational people and not a single one shuns christianity because they don't think they could manage it! Give me a break lol.
Creationism is at once a simplistic and wishful explanation of what “must have happened”, and a call to believe in the most complex of contrivances. It requires you to imagine a mind in a void, perfect and complete, right and benevolent (though to whom?). Yet this entity “suddenly” felt a need to alter its perfect state and create time, space, and “something” – which was a universe of astonishing chance and hazard, and some central creatures of poor, inadequate quality.
@StrumstickJoe I think you'll find a different account of how the universe (including man) was created in you read the first chapter of the Bible. There is no chance in God's universe, only His providential hand in all things. Man was created in the likeness of God, which means perfect, but sin has ruined him and the world. God was not altered by creating the world, He remains perfect and Holy
@bengphoenix When an entity creates something, I think y there has to be a reason.
Why am I debating the reality of genesis with what appears to be an otherwise intelligent person? You have to overcome the desperate need to find a meaning to life; and a destination for it.
I am here for the same reason as a leaf, or a stone, or a planet, and my destiny is the same as those things.
That makes me happy enough. Despite my importance today, and my sentience, I am no more than a transient happening.
@StrumstickJoe If you were consistent with your worldview then you would be constrained to a lifetime of utter despair. You can thank God that in His mercies he allows you some joy and pleasure in life, luxuries you will not have in hell. The fact that you attempt to have discourse testifies to the inescapable fact that each human life has meaning. Otherwise why would you bother to respond, or to read, or to eat or sleep for that matter? Are you satisfied with such blatant contradictions?
@StrumstickJoe To your own demise. The fact still remains that you cannot give an account for why you ascribe meaning to your life when the universe as a whole (of which you are a part) has no meaning. It's an irreconcilable contradiction, yet you continue to press your worldview.
@StrumstickJoe Do you not see the blatant condradiction in your Godless worldview? You say that the universe had no Creator, no Mind from which meaning derived , yet you ( as only one infintesimal part of this meaningless physical universe) still ascribe meaning to the words you speak. Where does the meaning come from? It wasn't there to begin with, according to you, so how is it a reality now? Far from magical, what you are describing is simply impossible......without God, that is
@bengphoenix We are all godless. We were born atheists. some of us stayed that way! What's wrong with that?
I think that many animals ascribe meaning to the sounds they make; what you can't get your head round is the the human primate is many hundreds, if not thousands of times more articulate than all the others BUT is on the same scale, and that's the important thing. We are not created by a god, and the universe was not created with us in mind because we are the chosen ones.
@UrukEngineer I hope God will call you my friend and heal you of blindness, I really do. I gave you multiple pieces of evidence regarding Higher Intelligence and I can give many more. Scientists and atheists bash on darwin and big bang, because its busted. Just google and voila. Science is about "seeking the truth", not "defending my own truth". That's why I respect you and watch your vids, but you don't reply to my issues, but you wave with Scientific Method. This is what I use and do brother!
Regarding your ant analogy. I notice that you prefaced it with "Imagine...." Your evidence is just imaginary. It is exactly the same basis on which your religious hypothesis is based. Your tendency to anthropomorphise is a truly human trait. You see a higher intelligence at work, when there is none.
To me, a lack of a creator makes the universe and life all the more special and important.
@UrukEngineer I type the way I do because you cannot understand the bold truth of God when told literally. Christians themselves begin as kids in this. The possibility of monkeys typing a Charles Dickens book is 1 to the trillionth or smaller. The possibility of SOMETHING coming out of NOTHING is 0, but for your sake let's say there is a possibility. The next stap is to create a planet on the right scale of the sun. When it fails by the trillionth of a trillionth of 1 percent, everyone dies. Etc
@UrukEngineer One other thing. You say: atheists don't need to prove anything. I think you're wrong. Why would you make up a name for people who believe in nothing? If I don't think unicorns exists, then why should I call myself a "anti-unicornist" on almost all video's I watch? Don't you just open a discussion about the very thing you seek to ignore, by doing so?
@Hendrikvanslooten Religion gives a full explanation for the universe in one go. Science just rolls back ignorance, exposing understanding through logical steps. There is much we don't understand, but we have a process by which we discover and expand. You don't need a god to explain things, they just remain inadequately explained.
Of course the onus is on the religious tp prove why people should believe in a non-logical explanation.
@UrukEngineer Example 2. The Miller-Urey (10:00) experiment IS repeatable with more realistic early-Earth gases. In fact one gets MORE diverse proto-life chemicals.
How do I know? I cross-reference data using multiple alternative sources on the internet. Did you do that, or just, through blind-faith or did just believe this video?
I could go on, but I feel I the video is not credible.
@UrukEngineer Now don't go in defense mode, stay "Scientific" on me here. Check the The Cambrian Explosion. Check the odds of having our universe without higher intelligence. Or does your car simply appears out of nothing over few billion years? We haven't found any yet :-). Our body is much more complex. Check the language in DNA. Check Darwin's comment on complex biological systems. If you know how ink chemically attaches to paper, you still haven't figured out who wrote today's newspaper.
("If you know how ink chemically attaches to paper, you still haven't figured out who wrote today's newspaper.") Are you saying that just because you know HOW the universe came to be, does not mean that you know WHY?
@UrukEngineer Imagine you drew a painting. It's a nice painting and it's your design. You even put your signature on it. You leave it standing and ants crawl over it. They sniff on the painting and discover after many years how the ink chemically attached to the paper. They say; no one created this painting, because we can proof how it came to being! The ants in this story are humans, tiny dots in the amazing galaxy God has created. He leaves his signature in DNA, in space, everywhere.
@UrukEngineer You make it look like religion and science are two separate things. In all my years I've embraced science, because it's shows me more and more the beauty of God. Now using pseudo-science and stating "we don't have all the answers (almost none actually) and come up with a theory where EVERYTHING rises from NOTHING", sounds like an OPINION to me. Movies have creators, paintings have creators, everything gets created. Then read the 1st law of thermodynamics.
@UrukEngineer No one can understand love, but yet it is very real. God MADE love, so how can we explain Him? God MADE time. He is not limited to time. God MADE space. He is not limited by space. Most people seek God to be a entity in the skies. The Bible teaches differently. God says; I have always been. I AM the beginning and the end. Imagine that; something we can't solve. That's why a theory pops up every now and then to give the illusion of control. It's a human trait trying to explain God.
@UrukEngineer Although I don't smoke, though it would be even better to do so then to believe that "this substance" just popped out of nothingness. Just like that :-).
@UrukEngineer I just gave you an answer, but I feel like it has no added value, given your responses so far. The question you're asking is like the question “what does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated. He simply exists. So:
@Hendrikvanslooten You don't evenly apply your own logic. You dismiss the hypothesis that the universe can appear from nothing. Yet you claim that god just exists and does not need a beginning. This is just a way of avoiding the uncomortable logic that for there to be a god he had to be created.
@UrukEngineer I dismiss nothing and it's not MY logic. If I would rely on human logic, I would get crazy theory's which require even more faith than acknowledging the fact that there is a Creator (which is not bound by time and space, never mind "logic") and that everyone can have a personal relationship with Him because He always comes to man to. So far you've been bashing on God. Please you tell me what caused big bang for and where we come from and what's our heading/purpose? I'm curious :-)
@Hendrikvanslooten Henrik, I am impressed by your command of the English language, but not by your logic.
It seems that you don't realise the implications of the Scientific Method. It starts from a knowledge of nothing. Observe phenomena, postulate hypothesis, test, observe and then adjust hypothesis. This slowly rolls back the blanket of ignorance. Just because a cause is not YET known does not mean that it must be "god. These gaps are slowly closing.
@UrukEngineer I know the method and is not rocketscience. Plan, test, evaluate is an almost universal procedure. In life, in business, everywhere. However, so far I've not had reason to throw away faith in God. But I wasn't really asking about the method, I was just wondering what YOU believe/have found out so far. So thank you for your answer (just saw it come in). Never occurs to you that you will never finds these gaps? In the meanwhile bashing people who DO fill the gaps, isn't science.
@Hendrikvanslooten Hendrik, here's what one christian said to me yesterday:
"oh God, I cry everyday for the wrath of God descending upon people like you. you will shed more tears than every tear ever shed on earth, screaming in pain" @petter1669
Check it out for yourself:
"Don't Waste Your Life - John Piper"
Petter1669 is every bit as convinced as you that he is a true christian. Do people who had out that kind of "bashing", deserve to be criticised?
@Hendrikvanslooten Two major gaps in current understanding are the cause of the Big Bang and what started Life. Science does not need god to explain what happened from those 2 points. The evolution of the universe and the evolution of life are natural consequences of those first events. There is no "plan".
Therefore there is NO heading/purpose....except that which we set ourselves. It is this fact that the religious mind has greatest difficulty in accepting.
@Hendrikvanslooten I watched all of your video. It used "facts" but did not draw logical conclusions. Example 1; the Kalam Constant (24:00). "Nothing can exist without a cause". The programme concludes god must have caused the universe. However it fails to use the same logic to ask what "caused" god?
@UrukEngineer Interesting movie you gave me. It raises questions and I love it. No questions = no answers. You would earn kudo's back from me by being just as open minded and view the video I gave to u :-). It deals with the conditions for the origin of life and it interviews atheists, not theists. Darwin himself said; if there are any biological processes found which couldn't have been formed by continuos little tweaks, then my theory is useless. And the proof shows just that, for years now.
The beliefs and practices of the Hindu pre-classical era (1500–500 BCE) are called the "historical Vedic religion". Modern Hinduism grew out of the Vedas, the oldest of which is the Rigveda, dated to 1700–1100 BCE.
The oldest material in the Old Testament may date from the 13th century BCE. The rest of Old Testament reached its current form at various points between the 5th century BCE (the first five books) and the 2nd century BCE.
@UrukEngineer Lol the hindu's again. First a question: what does BCE means? Second another question: If a book was written now about WW II, would it mean it didn't happen more then 50 years ago? Same story with the Bible. God has always been here and since he created man, God was being called upon. Now also imagine me writing a book and you writing a book. We both might write about unicorns, but it still would be different books with different styles. Same thing in the Bible.
@Hendrikvanslooten "BCE" is Before Common Era. It is a non-christian way of refering to "BC" Before Christ.
The bible that you read has indeed been evolving since 13thC. However its roots were polytheistic. It was not a monotheistic bible until around 600 BCE. That was when your god, the god of the Jews, of Christians and Muslims was created.
Here is a great explanation on YouTube: 3.3.3 Atheism - A History of God (Part 1)
@UrukEngineer Oke. The age of the Bible isn't the age of God. Because God has no age. You say: prove it. I say: disprove it. I'm not denying there's faith involved. But so does atheism. A kid who believes he can't ride a bike and won't ride a bike, will not learn how to ride a bike. Same story @ discovering God. I will watch your video! Will you watch one I just looked up for you?; youtube.com/watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw. Shorter video (about nice book): youtube.com/watch?v=rKrTK_WUiCo
@Hendrikvanslooten I watched your Kirk Cameron video. At 17 he stopped being an Atheist. One has to wonder how much intellectual rigour he had put into becoming an Atheist in the first place. He admitted that he wanted "to be cool". Lightweight!
For every one convert from Atheism, there are thousands to it.
@UrukEngineer As you well know that was not the video I gave first. Next to that you haven't read the book yet. Kirk's not 17 anymore. The 1st link is a must see. What's there to lose? :-).
I don't care about what the masses do, I care about you right now. People are being beaten in Egypt when they rise up for their rights, and "the masses" are watching Britain Got's Talent or other crap (talking about lightweights). So please be honest to yourself and watch this; /watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw
@UrukEngineer I believe you were the one who said: "Atheists are not non-believers. They believe in facts. CHRISTIANS are non-believers in evidence." Well I'm giving you all the facts you need, but you respond as I foretold with the unicorn; just some excuse :-). You spend 1.5 hours on each movie, and some movies suck. You don't have an hour to respect yourself and find out more about what's going on in this world? Please don't call Kirk a lightweight then :-). PS: I don't mean to be rude
@Hendrikvanslooten "Darwin himself said; if there are any biological processes found which couldn't have been formed by continuos little tweaks, then my theory is useless. And the proof shows just that, for years now."
To the best of my knowledge every single one of those creationist examples have been disproven. However testing the hypothis is welcome as it is the Scientific Method. What examples do you believe science has failed to debunk?
@UrukEngineer I will watch your video, but after 2 minutes I have more questions then I could type! Examples: God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; definitely not the same one! 00:53> "according to the evidence, this god began evolving from human ideas"> where's is that evidence? Furthermore; people do micro-evolve. The plague was the will of God? No it wasn't. It was caused because people ignored the 3500 year old hygiene-rules from God (OT) and weren't advanced in science.. You watching? :-)
@Hendrikvanslooten Thanks for watching the video. Most religious types don't bother to listen. Kudos to you.
""according to the evidence, this god began evolving from human ideas"> where's is that evidence?"
The author list his sources in the text that accompanies the video. Michael Freidman and Karen Armstrong are respected academics who specialise in textual examination of old belief systems.
@UrukEngineer Also: do you think paleographic, radiocarbon, and stratigraphic evidence are real evidence as accurate as when you would count each year that would go by from point zero? Seen a lot of mammoths from which the ribs where apparently 450 million years old (lol), and the legs were 300 million years old. Must have been a hard time for the fellow, no wonder they're extinct :-)! Hard time to tell age from tablets as well. I'm at 5 minutes and still no questions rose I couldn't answer.
"You say: prove it. I say: disprove it. I'm not denying there's faith involved. But so does atheism" Nonsense. Religion makes outrageous claims, that an invisible god created everything. It is for religion to prove, not others to disprove. Atheism does not need to be proved as such. It is simply that there is no need for a god to explain the universe.
@Hendrikvanslooten "Seen a lot of mammoths from which the ribs where apparently 450 million years old (lol), and the legs were 300 million years old. "
Religion kills all that is good. All religion. Not just christianity or islam but all religion. Every religion has asked for faith killings...the jihad for the muslims, the inquisition and the crusades for cristianity. It's not about being non-believevers, it's about not believing in a god that is by all intents and purposes evil, gelous, (thou shall not have any other gods befor me admits the existens of other gods, but does not want you to believe in those) and petty. I AM AN ANTI-THEIST
@warprodigis Definie religion. If I smash a store in the name of Obama, surely Obama is not to blame? Same story if somedone does it because it's the so called will of God. If people exploid poverty to justify jihad (which so called christians did in dark ages), it's not about finding thé Truth, it's about power, control and money. Read the Bible and you will no such thing being told. People are shown TRUTH & LOVE and are willing to share. Man itself isn't originally into sharing. Isn't that odd
@UrukEngineer The goal of an atheist is to spread the opinion that God does not exist. Atheist couldn't exist without believers. Even better, you have no reason to exist if (what you say is true and) God doesn't exist. Yet you do exist. You are like people who say there aren't any blue apples, but yet you have the urge to ensure everyone there really aren't any! However, we are not talking about apples, we are talking about the Highest power, master of Everything & everyone.
@UrukEngineer :-). No I wouldn't believe you just like that. But if I talked with you about unicorns and I already made up my mind, you could even show me a unicorn and I'd say; hologram! Fake! See my point? There really IS supernatural love with God. Otherwise people wouldn't risked their lives for thousands of years. When you're looking for truth, something that is and stays REAL, plz read the gospels. Or "fill" yourself with things that will perish, like fashion and wealth. Ask God to guide!
@Hendrikvanslooten Can you see the hollowness of your reason for faith?
You said "There really IS supernatural love with God. Otherwise people wouldn't risked their lives for thousands of years." This is not a reason to believe.
On this basis Hinduism and Buddism are MORE correct than chrisyiainty. In fact why not worship Apollo?
So why did you chose a younger religion.
Why do you believe? What proof have you for your "unicorn"?
@UrukEngineer I think you judge too soon and bring damage to yourself by doing so. Hinduism and Buddism aren't older then the Old Testament :-). The point with almost all religions is finding the godliness inside yourself. With Christ, you don't live for yourself anymore but you live to Love your fellow man as much as yourself and God above all. In some religions there is much "love" as well, but only as a way to get to a higher class. So it's still egocentric and a tool. With Christ it's a goal
@UrukEngineer And Islam, founded 700 years AD (so thousands of years later than the Old Testament), presents a god which is angry and distant. The One and Only God however comes to us, every time! The God which isn't limited by time, because he created time itself. The God that created the quadrillions of stars. Each time he will come and take care of those who realize they need His Light. But alot of people grow a hardened heart, because acknowledging God exists means accepting His will/rules..
@Hendrikvanslooten Sounds like a nice guy your god. Sadly there is no evidence to suggest that he exists, or if he does, that he is as nice as you say.
The OT god is vengeful and jealous. Is he not the same god in NT? Are they different gods? Why do you just pick the bits from the bible that YOU want to believe?
@UrukEngineer There is plenty of evidence. Man's fleshy being however can't even deal with nature, a creation of God. We mess up all ecosystems and ignore the beauty by embracing "rationality". Well, I'm rational. Only my rationality doesn't include fear, so it's open minded and allows looking things at a spiritual level as well. But if you want "rationality", check the statistics of murder/rape/suicide vs. believers in Christ for lets say last 50-100 years? The OT God is the exact same as NT.
In Mar 97 based on a survey data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Atheists were a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) but were disproportionately fewer in the prison populations (0.21%)
@UrukEngineer I didn't say that. I said there WAS less crime (in totality) at the moment when more people read the gospels more often. Otherwise I wouldn't refer to the last 50-100 years. If I said: christians commit less crime, you could simply take research data from last year or so. BTW you switch subjects often :-). I try to reply as good as possible, but please also allow yourself to think about it, instead of attacking via another way :-). BTW christians aren't always followers of Christ
To all those who are brand new Christians & those who have been justified by faith please DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GARBAGE! This is a religous spirit & has led many to doubt their salvation, exchange their faith which satan is greatly after for a lie, to "prove" your saved via Washer, Piper, Macarthur & the like. Keep your Armor on please!!! I have videos that challenge these heretical teachings of TULIP Calvinism, Armenianism & the like The wrath Washer is exhibiting is not of God but of the flesh
Hate to split hairs, but Jesus is grace, by virtue of the fact that came to save us from God's wrath (Rom 1:18, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:8)...if we didn't need saving from God's wrath, what did we need saving from...hell? John 3:36 says that for those who aren't in Christ, "the wrath of God remains on them". Which is juxtaposed against eternal life, which means that the people who are in hell are experiencing the wrath of God. Without the wrath of God, His grace is superficial.
That's the paradox, it seems the more outrageous the claim is, the more evidence should be supplied to support it.Claiming that God wrote a book for us qualifies as pretty damn strong claim, so from my perspective that book has to be simply Perfect..
However, it has SO many flaws, yet people accept it so easily without thinking anyway..Just pisses me off.
As to the video . . . yeah . . . I don't think its our 'inability' to live up to Leviticus that prevents unbelievers from converting. Its a little thing called honesty. Oh, and actual laws preventing the stoning of people for thought crimes.
Minor details. . .
Love these straw man arguments, tailored expertly to a flock of credulous sheep.
How can people follow a book which says that God who's supposed to be almighty and all forgiving and all-knowing and the most perfect being in the universe has no problem with slavery, sexism and 'putting people to death' for smallest of crimes is beyond me...
Sure, it's nice to comfort yourself with idea of eternal life in a happy place where you will be able to meet your dead relatives, but Bible is a joke.
You are hypocrits for believing the good parts, but ignoring the atrocious ones
@ModeLTU You like most most atheists and agnostics haven't even studied the bible enough to answer these questions if you take the time to study it you'll get your answer
@the1qb I mean, from my perspective extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence.Claiming that a book was given to us by the CREATOR OF THE FREAKING UNIVERSE counts as pretty damn extraordinary to me.
If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity." (as well as many others) prove to me that unless God has some sort of mental disorder (Oh noes Im going to hell for saying that), Bible was written by men, not God
@ModeLTU To describe it would be very long however look at the hebrew law on violent intervention, and to briefly describe it it's fairly simple. The law makes a very specific point that a woman shouldn't grab the testicles of another man it doesn't say a woman can't intervene it says she can't grab the other man's testicles which has more to do with sexual immorality then the act of intervening in defense of the husband
@the1qb I mean, just the fact that it tells something completely unrelated to fighting (why are genitals mentioned at all?) shows that the writer has no idea what he's talking about.
Are we just gonna go back and forth when I post some absolute nonsense from the bible and you reply and try to defend it?..
What about the part about cutting her arm off?Or other 'laws' which require 'putting people to death' for every little 'sin' they commit?
@ModeLTU firstly not every sin has capital punishment i don't know where you even got that from. Secondly, I'm not defending the bible i'm explaining it because you had a very valid question that needed answering. I too had questions about the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and Exodus so i did my homework, I look into these things so that i might know the truth and be able to explain it to people that have questions, in fact answering question over time has given me greater biblical knowledge
@the1qb I meant verses like this "For six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death." or Deut 21:18-21 btw.
I consider that sort of harsh.A lot of people should be put to death if we followed "God's" word.
@the1qb Again, unless God isn't actually all that perfect, verses like that just confirm to me that it was men who wrote them.They wanted to control people by instilling fear of something unexplainable onto primitive people.
And it was a good plan at the time when society wasn't all that developed.I'm sure some people didn't commit crimes just because they were afraid that even if they get away with it in this world "there's a man up in the sky watching you and he will judge you accordingly"
@ModeLTU Firstly, he's not in the sky your attempting to trivialize God. It is not about fear it's about love. When you love Christ you naturally follow his law and he renews you. It's a beautiful thing to experience this. However, you should have a healthy fear of God because you will be judged so you should always re-examine yourself as it says in the new testament to make sure you are in christ. The bible wasn't written to make an argument for God's existence it was written to teach us
@the1qb I get the 'respect someone who's higher and more advanced than you' part.
However, you're completely missing my point.
"The bible wasn't written to make an argument for God's existence it was written to teach us".
Well, I don't follow it and think it's a load of bollocks BECAUSE I think that God wasn't the one who inspired it.And I draw that conclusion by actually reading it.
You just automatically assume that there is God.That's your problem
@the1qb Of course I'd want there to be a place which equals all the wrongs.Which allows parents to see their dead sons who went to war and died because some power hungry bastards sent them to die.
Which rewards people who were born unlucky (without arms and legs, for example) for 'passing the test' and give them eternity in happiness.
But just because a story makes us feel fuzzy and comforts us about our fear of death, doesn't make it true.
@the1qb It's a good way to run from the cold reality."Oh, this really sucks, my goverment is fucking me over...Oh well, I just have to 'pass this test', believe in JC and I will have eternal life in heaven afterwards".That's what people who created religions depend on.
On people who will rather comfort themselves with delusions than face the truth which says that we simply DON'T KNOW.
@ModeLTU Speak for yourself my friend i know what i know. I don't worship the bible I worship Christ. I could say your delusional for not believing in God because that's your way of circumventing the fear of judgement upon death. There is one thing i do know and that is that Christ does what he says he'll do and that's a guarantee that i am making to you. Living for Christ isn't easy believe me it's by far the hardest thing to deny yourself to serve him then to do whatever you'd like
So do you agree that Bible has a lot of problems in it as I don't see you refuting any of my points?
Now my question is...IF THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY SOURCE WHICH GIVES YOU 'EVIDENCE' THAT GOD EXISTS (And that Jesus Christ is God's son), HOW CAN YOU STILL BELIEVE IT?
@ModeLTU I refuted your points already that's not the issue i was pointing out that the bible isn't what i worship so no i didn't say there were problems with it. The bible is not the only proof God exists i don't know where you got that from. Christ does what he said he'll do in transforming lives and lastly modern scholarship almost universally agrees that Jesus of Nazareth existed the debate is whether or not he was who he said he was. I don't ignore parts of the bible i refuted your argument
@the1qb Christ is connected to the Bible quite strongly.He says that we shouldn't ignore old testament, for example.So if Bible isn't word of God = Jesus Christ isn't the son of God.Which would mean that all the parts where he claims that 'believing' in him will grant you eternal life is bs, right?
How did you refute my points btw?How can you explain II Kings 2:23-24 verse?
@the1qb It's like, I'm presenting the evidence that Bible isn't actually a word of God, which means that EVERYTHING written in it is a load of bullocks written by a bunch of primitive men, and yet you just somehow ignore it and continue your senseless "Christ is my savior I have to believe him" babble..
Choosing the right part and ignoring the wrong doesn't make it real.
I'm just lost at your thought proccess and logic..
@ModeLTU I also love that because you lose you feel the need to say that i'm somehow brainwashed i came to my conclusion on my own accord and no else's so your proposition is absurd and is more or less a way of getting the last word while retreating
@the1qb I guess the debate we're having here is that you justify the actions, which 'God' didn't have trouble with.For me those actions discredit Bible.
From my perspective, putting people to death because they work on sundays or oking the mauling of 42 children because they made fun of the bald man proves that Bible has nothing to do with anything divine.
Again, because God is supposed to be perfect.I think that A SINGLE mistake is enough to discredit Bible as word of God.
@ModeLTU Firstly, Bethel where this 2kings event happened was a center for Baal worship which is an abomination to God. secondly when translated from original hebrew properly they were young men not children, thirdly they called him bald not because he was bald but because baldness was associated with leprosy which is seen as a curse, thirdly they told him to ascend and leave like elijah did and in the process mocked a just and holy God as well as his prophets and in doing so brought judgement
@ModeLTU It's not clear to us because you read into the bible with your cultural presuppositions and norms so when you deposit them into a far different culture with different norms it will seem odd, when you study rome they killed thousands in the coliseum and we say that's brutal but it was normal to them. We for example place almost not negativity towards adultery when in ancient times it was punishable by even death
@ModeLTU He didn't change any views this further tells me you lack any level of biblical scholarship and you completely lack the fundamental concepts of the teachings of the bible. Firstly, it clearly states in the bible that the wage of sin is death. So firstly when you sin you are now 100% open to judgement. So firstly once you see that all of us should be in Hell for our sin then you gain a true understanding of the bible
@ModeLTU Firstly, God isn't sexist you can see this through the actions of Christ. Secondly homophobic isn't even a word in my dictionary that would be like saying liarphobic or pedophilaphobic it's a sin. Pedophilia is wrong however pedophiles say they can't help it, rapists say they can't help it so is it cool for them to do what they want too. Lastly the Christ clarified that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. Lastly, God can bring judgement when he wants it's his call
@the1qb The fact that God wanted to punish homosexuals means that he's either ignorant about human biology or just likes to punish people for being different.Which doesn't make a lot of sense for a omniscient being.
And Bible has plenty of sexist verses.Just because people realised that they can't push that shit through any more and wrote 'new testament' to try and help sell their product better, doesn't justify the abominations in the old one.
@the1qb Unless Christ has superiority over God (which I'm quite sure isn't the case), JC's explanations for atrocities in the old testament are irrelevant.
Saying that JC 'fixed' what God already said yet again means that either God isn't all that smart (views towards slavery or homosexualism) or he wasn't the one to say that.
@ModeLTU Firstly, there has been no discovered genetic link to homosexuality, this genetic excuse is a cop out for a wide array of immoralities from adultery to theft so this argument is simply pathetic and not true people choose their actions. Thirdly, i could just say pedophiles have thier brains wired to like children. This however, just like your argument isn't an argument at all. Lastly, I'm not afraid to question the bible i don't take a literal interpretation on at least
@the1qb yourself by thinking that wrong doing has no consequence because it has very harsh penalties. God has also made provision to allow you to cleansed of your sins if you don't want to take this free gift that's fine but your condemning yourself
@ModeLTU You have a conscious given by God to every man because we are made in his image and we know the difference between right and wrong. Rather we choose to follow it is your choice there is plenty of evidence look at the propheticness of the bible or the historical corroboration or the shroud of turin which is absolutely incredible. Lastly just saying you accept Christ does nothing. You have to give everything you are to him and then you are saved, it is absolutely the most beautiful event
@the1qb "and we know the difference between right and wrong".Apparently God doesn't know the difference between right and wrong himself, as I was pointing out.
His understanding of what is right and wrong only advances as fast as society's norms advance.I think you get what I mean by that.
Let's not start talking about the "prophecies"..They are vague, ambiguous, have no names, dates and most of them were written so that it could refer to ANY event in the future.
@the1qb That's the idea of writing a good prophecy.It's like I said "There will be a great war, it will last for days, tons of blood will be shed and one side will emerge victorious!".That sounds pretty impressive right?
Obviously, it is considered a big joke by anyone smart.
It usually takes a lot of interpretation to make the prophecies fit with the events.
I mean, you didn't even refute any of my points.You sort of ignore them and continue talking about how 'JC saved you'
@ModeLTU Daniel Prophecy of Alexander the great's empire is one very specific one. However, i can tell you haven't read the bible so i would ask you to read it in it's entirety
@the1qb Of course I haven't read the Bible.Few verses are enough for me to realize that it wasn't God who wrote it.We can look at it as a source of inspiration or whatever, but I get really pissed when people assume that it was actually God who inspired it.
Can you quote the part where the prophecy mentions Alexander the Great?
From the sources I found, prophecy mentions something vague about a 'mighy king' who will rule in the future.
@ModeLTU A few verses are just enough to misinterpret if i grab any book and take a couple of passages out of context then of course it'll look funny. Which is why it needs to be read entirely. Your refuting something you know nothing about which makes no sense. Second of all in Daniel chapter 11 is the exact perfect description of what happens to Alexander a few centuries later so look it up
It's clear that "God" tells that anyone who curses at their parents should be put to death.That homosexuals should be put to death.That all the 'enemies' of God should be put to death.
That's enough for a rational mind to realize that it wasn't God who said it,yes, even if later he promises us eternal life and damnation if we don't believe it.
@the1qb DA 11:3 "Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
DA 11:4 "And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.
@the1qb People like you are too naive and too easily impressed.
Give me ONE prophecy which ISN'T written in an ambiguous and vague way which also features location, date or names.
Just ONE.
DA 11:27 "Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time."
@ModeLTU Did you read the whole chapter it talks about the daughter of the king of the south in Daniel 11:6 and how it corresponds perfectly with history. Did you even read the chapter and see how it fits with the actual history. You have to actually look which takes more then 5 minutes when you look you'll see the incredible accuracy of specific events
@the1qb@the1qb I mean, how is this a prophecy?Look at the history.People were cruel and mean to each other for ages.OF COURSE the guy who wrote this prophecy knew that.This sort of vague description is a joke, not a prophecy.
These sort of 'prophecies' can be applied and interpreted in many ways, that's the WHOLE damn idea.
@ModeLTU Don't waste your time, chances are those authors wrote the books after the actual events, or were edited later to fit with history.
This debate has been raging for years, and theists will continue defending their nonsense. You can fight and fight and fight, and when it comes down to it, they'll admit your reasoning is sound, but, unfortunately for your reasoning, God exists anyway, so tough.
Go get a 12 pack and do something stupid, thats my plan.
@Reerrpad5515 Yea, I'm sort of starting to get the picture slowly..
I guess I wish for too much.
I mean, I don't try to talk about whether there is some sort of spirit up there which created the universe or whatever.But it seems like it should be PAINFULLY obvious to anyone rational that Bible is sort of, well, a joke.
@ModeLTU Its beautifully written, foundational for english literature, and has plenty of golden nuggets from our history from which we can derive moral intuitions. The problem is that Christians really just don't deserve it, because for them, its meaningless unless God exists. They can't separate the wheat from the chafe because every word is supposedly divinely inspired/authored, so they can't approach it as a valuable resource, they must approach it as THE source. Clearly problematic.
@the1qb "Virtually any prediction a person can make will come true given enough time. I can tell you the Earth will be hit by a large meteor. When it eventually happens, will that make me some sort of prophet or fortune teller? No, it will just mean statistics finally caught up with my prediction."
Pretty much all the prophecies are vague and were written with the intention to possibly apply to MULTIPLE events in the future.
That's EXACTLY why there are no names, dates or locations
@the1qb That's because people who wrote that realized that if they wrote down an accurate date or location and then that prophecy didn't come true, they were screwed.It's easier to use this specific tricky and ambiguous style of writing.
Again, it was GOD, the omniscient being who inspired people to write down those so called prophecies, right?.He knows everything.Why couldn't he give us something concrete and obvious?It doesn't make any sense from my perspective.
@the1qb It was obvious we were gonna agree to disagree from the very beginning.I think you get the truth in your subconscious, you just don't want to get it out and admit the reality.
I'd like JC to come to earth and save 3 y olds dying from cancer or something.This blind worshipping without any evidence is useless and hypocritical.
But like I said, you can make people believe antyhing when you give them answers to the (currently) unanswerable questions and promise them eternal life..Oh well
@ModeLTU It is the most beautiful thing because though they die a horrible death they get to forever share in glory with Christ. The funny thing is that if there is no God then a kid dying from cancer isn't sad because we're just accidents anyways we have no worth no value no meaning. So before you deny Christ think of what you asserting in his place
@the1qb Well, that's exactly my point.People like you simply have hard time admitting the cruel reality, which says that we are just another species of animals (albeit more advanced one) and when we die we most likely simply vanish forever.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I would LOVE if there was actually God, if all the wrongs were undone and people who deserved better, but simply were unlucky, got rewarded at least after death.
@the1qb@the1qb I'd like God to present at least SOME proof if he wants smart people to believe him.Old book which tells us that it was inspired by God doesn't really qualify when it also has no problem with slavery, sexism and killing people because "Lord" wanted that.
I mean, it amazes me how easily people will follow if you put down the "just worship and you will get eternal life in a happy place, I promise! ;) " stamp on it and give comfort and salvation about death
@the1qb I mean, how does saying and accepting JC change who you are as a person?
Are you implying that you would have done more bad things in your life if you didn't believe that God will not like it and punish you for that?
It's easy to delude yourself and not accept the reality which doesn't give us an explanation.
Repeating "you are condemning yourself" doesn't make smart people believe you.That trick is the oldest trick in the book.EVERY religion says the same, that's the idea
@the1qb Just because they want to taste that "Sweet sin and hurt our beloved father", right?COME ON.
Think man, think.It's a FACT that homosexuals don't choose what they are attracted to.Just because you choose not to believe doesn't make it a reality.
So yea, you are saying that God REALLY wants to kill us for every sin we commit, but he holds that urge back, because he wants to give us a 2nd chance eh?
@the1qb "Lastly, God can bring judgement when he wants it's his call".
Fear mongering much?
Again, that's the difference between me and you.You are afraid to question, as consciously or subconsciously you fear that God will hear your doubts and punish you for it.
Yea, it's possible he's a bloodthirsty arrogant douchebag who has no problem killing or commanding to kill a bunch of people if they don't agree with him.
But yet again, IMO it's more likely that it wasn't God at all
@ModeLTU the first chapters of genesis. You however want a user friendly God who doesn't punish people when the reality is sin is incredibly serious and just because society has taken a different stance doesn't change the reality that sin has a price. God would be just in killing you at your first sin if he wanted he however shows grace in giving us time to repent and turn to him. Once you understand that God owes you nothing you owe him it will change your life and you can stop deluding
@ModeLTU Secondly as you read in the new testament the law brought the knowledge of sin and the penalty. This does not however mean the doctrine of forgiveness didn't exist. The laws were shown to be the most that a crime could or should be punished by. Just as today even though their is a maximum penalty it is not always carried out however it is still just if the maximum penalty was given. SO when you see from the proper perspective there is nothing unreasonable at all
@the1qb Oh, you mentioned God DIDN'T change his views?O_o
Ok, why aren't 'disobedient sons' getting stoned to death nowadays?
What about slavery?
You're saying that all of that were just society's norms?
So then again I ask you, why would God need to accomodate his views to the human standards back in the day?Why would he not say simply tell everyone that slavery was wrong?
It seems that some things like killing and stealing were prohibited, but others like slavery were ok in God's eyes
@ModeLTU upon themselves. Them jeering Elisha in and of itself wouldn't have brought this upon them. However, them being Baal worshipers and them attacking the prophets of God, by telling him to ascend they were threatening his life, however this is somewhat lost in the english translations. All their sins and inequities brought judgement upon themselves. God didn't do anything unjust
@the1qb I mean, the guys who wrote the Bible messed up.They wanted to instil fear of some invisible entity who 'will judge everryone afterwards'.And those horrific stories worked quite well on majority of the population back in the day.
Saying that anyone who disagrees with his parents should be stoned to death helped to maintain the respect for authority, for example.
If Bible was written in modern days they couldn't say that anyone who disagrees with them should be put to death
@the1qb Nowadays it's all about "forgiveness and showing people the true way" eh?
Back in the day Lord would have no problem killing a bunch of people instead of being forgiving and helping to reach the true way.
So it's either that the morals of the God change and grow only as fast as human morals do or (more logical explanation) bible wasn't inspired by God at all.
Slavery is another topic in that context.It was okeyed in bible many times.
@the1qb And I'm not talking about any other "Gods".By God I don't mean some sort of entity, a spirit, whatever you'd like to call it.I mean THE Judeo-Christian God.
Ok, we can say that Bible isn't the only proof that specific God exists.But any flaw in the Bible should nulify his existence, right?You can't say that Bible wasn't written by God, but Jesus Christ is still son of God who will grant us eternal life, right?
@the1qb The difference between me and you is that you automatically assume that it was "God" who said those things, because you're afraid that if you don't accept it, God will punish you.That's called fear mongering..
I question whether it was actually God who inspired people to write those things.
@the1qb Think about verse like "Col 3:22-24" (I won't quote, takes too much space)
Isn't this EXACTLY what you would say to your slaves to convince them that God wants them to obey you?
Oh, reward is also mentioned.That's pretty important tool to brainwash people.
It's waaay easier to control a bunch of primitive people and abuse them if you convince them that 'as long as you follow these commands from (supposed) god' you will gain eternal life in heaven and all the wrongs will be perished
@ModeLTU I would like to say you've greatly misinterpreted one of the most beautiful passages in the bible and this same message was expanded a little inthe book of Ephesians. Paul is telling everyone that no matter what your situation it doesn't matter, you must give your life to Christ you must make your life a living testament to him in everything you do including your work, because any wrong done to you will be repaid and any wrong you do must be punished so submit to christ and live for him
@the1qb In modern world we have..Wait for it..LAW ENFORCEMENT!If you commit crimes you will get punished according to the law.
Ok, that's a fair point.Why does Paul insist that slaves should listen to their masters no matter what then?It specifically mentions the authority issue and makes sure that slaves FEAR the authority.Slaves are way less likely to rebel if they believe that "God" wants them to be in the position they are in.
Oh, btw, why are we talking about slavery as if it's normal?
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Thanks for the upload. I have a suggestion on how to talk with non believers: SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH.
We never much cared for your Iron Age barbarism, human sacrifice, the degradation of women, genocide, or the master/slave relationship.
Peace
northoforacle 1 month ago
This is just silly. Anyone who thinks they can't be Christian because what the bible says is too hard already believes in the bible.
Plus, there are those of us who aren't Christian not because there's something special about Christianity but because we're something else. Our religion space is already filled, and we're quite happy where we are. We're not "unbelievers," we just believe in different things.
Naiant 2 months ago
let's all stop fighting and just love each other!!! :)
MsNerdsrus 2 months ago
What on Earth is Mr Piper on about? I know a lot of rational people and not a single one shuns christianity because they don't think they could manage it! Give me a break lol.
whatchalamagopagoop 4 months ago
Creationism is at once a simplistic and wishful explanation of what “must have happened”, and a call to believe in the most complex of contrivances. It requires you to imagine a mind in a void, perfect and complete, right and benevolent (though to whom?). Yet this entity “suddenly” felt a need to alter its perfect state and create time, space, and “something” – which was a universe of astonishing chance and hazard, and some central creatures of poor, inadequate quality.
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@StrumstickJoe I think you'll find a different account of how the universe (including man) was created in you read the first chapter of the Bible. There is no chance in God's universe, only His providential hand in all things. Man was created in the likeness of God, which means perfect, but sin has ruined him and the world. God was not altered by creating the world, He remains perfect and Holy
bengphoenix 5 months ago
@bengphoenix When an entity creates something, I think y there has to be a reason.
Why am I debating the reality of genesis with what appears to be an otherwise intelligent person? You have to overcome the desperate need to find a meaning to life; and a destination for it.
I am here for the same reason as a leaf, or a stone, or a planet, and my destiny is the same as those things.
That makes me happy enough. Despite my importance today, and my sentience, I am no more than a transient happening.
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@StrumstickJoe If you were consistent with your worldview then you would be constrained to a lifetime of utter despair. You can thank God that in His mercies he allows you some joy and pleasure in life, luxuries you will not have in hell. The fact that you attempt to have discourse testifies to the inescapable fact that each human life has meaning. Otherwise why would you bother to respond, or to read, or to eat or sleep for that matter? Are you satisfied with such blatant contradictions?
bengphoenix 5 months ago
@bengphoenix I have no idea what you are talking about.
I thank "god" for nothing.
(I like that "he allows you some pleasures")
I find the concept of loving something you fear to be sado-masochistic.
Why do you threaten me with hell - can you not see that that is a control mechanism to keep the young and vulnerable in line?
I refute it all, and I deny the holy sprite!
There!
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@StrumstickJoe To your own demise. The fact still remains that you cannot give an account for why you ascribe meaning to your life when the universe as a whole (of which you are a part) has no meaning. It's an irreconcilable contradiction, yet you continue to press your worldview.
bengphoenix 5 months ago
@bengphoenix Sorry to repeat old chap, but you're not listening:
"You have to overcome the desperate need to find a meaning to life; and a destination for it.
I am here for the same reason as a leaf, or a stone, or a planet, and my destiny is the same as those things.
That makes me happy enough. Despite my importance today, and my sentience, I am no more than a transient happening."
No contradiction there.
There is no meaning to life; no soul; no afterlife.
Is that clear?
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
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bengphoenix 5 months ago
@bengphoenix Well they do to me!
And I hope their reasoned, unmagical logic means something to even just a few people who read them.
I could use the remark "fail" to every believer in mysticism that I ever encounter, couldn't I?
But I don't because it would indicate that I had no backup for my argument, it would show lack of thought - and it would be just a cheap shot.
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@StrumstickJoe Do you not see the blatant condradiction in your Godless worldview? You say that the universe had no Creator, no Mind from which meaning derived , yet you ( as only one infintesimal part of this meaningless physical universe) still ascribe meaning to the words you speak. Where does the meaning come from? It wasn't there to begin with, according to you, so how is it a reality now? Far from magical, what you are describing is simply impossible......without God, that is
bengphoenix 5 months ago
@bengphoenix We are all godless. We were born atheists. some of us stayed that way! What's wrong with that?
I think that many animals ascribe meaning to the sounds they make; what you can't get your head round is the the human primate is many hundreds, if not thousands of times more articulate than all the others BUT is on the same scale, and that's the important thing. We are not created by a god, and the universe was not created with us in mind because we are the chosen ones.
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@bengphoenix
bengphoenix 5 months ago
Thanks for posting.
NorthrupTalon2 9 months ago
WAT????!!!!
bringonthewrath 11 months ago
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@bringonthewrath Which part doesn't make sense?
Abhorsen27 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer I hope God will call you my friend and heal you of blindness, I really do. I gave you multiple pieces of evidence regarding Higher Intelligence and I can give many more. Scientists and atheists bash on darwin and big bang, because its busted. Just google and voila. Science is about "seeking the truth", not "defending my own truth". That's why I respect you and watch your vids, but you don't reply to my issues, but you wave with Scientific Method. This is what I use and do brother!
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Hmmm, I thought I DID reply to your issues.
Regarding your ant analogy. I notice that you prefaced it with "Imagine...." Your evidence is just imaginary. It is exactly the same basis on which your religious hypothesis is based. Your tendency to anthropomorphise is a truly human trait. You see a higher intelligence at work, when there is none.
To me, a lack of a creator makes the universe and life all the more special and important.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I type the way I do because you cannot understand the bold truth of God when told literally. Christians themselves begin as kids in this. The possibility of monkeys typing a Charles Dickens book is 1 to the trillionth or smaller. The possibility of SOMETHING coming out of NOTHING is 0, but for your sake let's say there is a possibility. The next stap is to create a planet on the right scale of the sun. When it fails by the trillionth of a trillionth of 1 percent, everyone dies. Etc
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer One other thing. You say: atheists don't need to prove anything. I think you're wrong. Why would you make up a name for people who believe in nothing? If I don't think unicorns exists, then why should I call myself a "anti-unicornist" on almost all video's I watch? Don't you just open a discussion about the very thing you seek to ignore, by doing so?
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Religion gives a full explanation for the universe in one go. Science just rolls back ignorance, exposing understanding through logical steps. There is much we don't understand, but we have a process by which we discover and expand. You don't need a god to explain things, they just remain inadequately explained.
Of course the onus is on the religious tp prove why people should believe in a non-logical explanation.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Example 2. The Miller-Urey (10:00) experiment IS repeatable with more realistic early-Earth gases. In fact one gets MORE diverse proto-life chemicals.
How do I know? I cross-reference data using multiple alternative sources on the internet. Did you do that, or just, through blind-faith or did just believe this video?
I could go on, but I feel I the video is not credible.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Now don't go in defense mode, stay "Scientific" on me here. Check the The Cambrian Explosion. Check the odds of having our universe without higher intelligence. Or does your car simply appears out of nothing over few billion years? We haven't found any yet :-). Our body is much more complex. Check the language in DNA. Check Darwin's comment on complex biological systems. If you know how ink chemically attaches to paper, you still haven't figured out who wrote today's newspaper.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Sorry, I don't follow what you are saying.
("If you know how ink chemically attaches to paper, you still haven't figured out who wrote today's newspaper.") Are you saying that just because you know HOW the universe came to be, does not mean that you know WHY?
Is that your point?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Imagine you drew a painting. It's a nice painting and it's your design. You even put your signature on it. You leave it standing and ants crawl over it. They sniff on the painting and discover after many years how the ink chemically attached to the paper. They say; no one created this painting, because we can proof how it came to being! The ants in this story are humans, tiny dots in the amazing galaxy God has created. He leaves his signature in DNA, in space, everywhere.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer You make it look like religion and science are two separate things. In all my years I've embraced science, because it's shows me more and more the beauty of God. Now using pseudo-science and stating "we don't have all the answers (almost none actually) and come up with a theory where EVERYTHING rises from NOTHING", sounds like an OPINION to me. Movies have creators, paintings have creators, everything gets created. Then read the 1st law of thermodynamics.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten "everything gets created" even you don't believe that!
Who then created god?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer No one can understand love, but yet it is very real. God MADE love, so how can we explain Him? God MADE time. He is not limited to time. God MADE space. He is not limited by space. Most people seek God to be a entity in the skies. The Bible teaches differently. God says; I have always been. I AM the beginning and the end. Imagine that; something we can't solve. That's why a theory pops up every now and then to give the illusion of control. It's a human trait trying to explain God.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten "That's why a theory pops up every now and then to give the illusion of control. It's a human trait trying to explain God."
Hendrik, it sounds like you've been smoking too much of that substance that is legal in Amsterdam but banned in the UK.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Although I don't smoke, though it would be even better to do so then to believe that "this substance" just popped out of nothingness. Just like that :-).
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten How did god pop out of nothingness, Hendrik?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
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Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I just gave you an answer, but I feel like it has no added value, given your responses so far. The question you're asking is like the question “what does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated. He simply exists. So:
1. everything out of nothing
2. everything out of Everything (God)
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten You don't evenly apply your own logic. You dismiss the hypothesis that the universe can appear from nothing. Yet you claim that god just exists and does not need a beginning. This is just a way of avoiding the uncomortable logic that for there to be a god he had to be created.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I dismiss nothing and it's not MY logic. If I would rely on human logic, I would get crazy theory's which require even more faith than acknowledging the fact that there is a Creator (which is not bound by time and space, never mind "logic") and that everyone can have a personal relationship with Him because He always comes to man to. So far you've been bashing on God. Please you tell me what caused big bang for and where we come from and what's our heading/purpose? I'm curious :-)
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Henrik, I am impressed by your command of the English language, but not by your logic.
It seems that you don't realise the implications of the Scientific Method. It starts from a knowledge of nothing. Observe phenomena, postulate hypothesis, test, observe and then adjust hypothesis. This slowly rolls back the blanket of ignorance. Just because a cause is not YET known does not mean that it must be "god. These gaps are slowly closing.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I know the method and is not rocketscience. Plan, test, evaluate is an almost universal procedure. In life, in business, everywhere. However, so far I've not had reason to throw away faith in God. But I wasn't really asking about the method, I was just wondering what YOU believe/have found out so far. So thank you for your answer (just saw it come in). Never occurs to you that you will never finds these gaps? In the meanwhile bashing people who DO fill the gaps, isn't science.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten "In the meanwhile bashing people who DO fill the gaps (with god) , isn't science." True.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Hendrik, here's what one christian said to me yesterday:
"oh God, I cry everyday for the wrath of God descending upon people like you. you will shed more tears than every tear ever shed on earth, screaming in pain" @petter1669
Check it out for yourself:
"Don't Waste Your Life - John Piper"
Petter1669 is every bit as convinced as you that he is a true christian. Do people who had out that kind of "bashing", deserve to be criticised?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Two major gaps in current understanding are the cause of the Big Bang and what started Life. Science does not need god to explain what happened from those 2 points. The evolution of the universe and the evolution of life are natural consequences of those first events. There is no "plan".
Therefore there is NO heading/purpose....except that which we set ourselves. It is this fact that the religious mind has greatest difficulty in accepting.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten I watched all of your video. It used "facts" but did not draw logical conclusions. Example 1; the Kalam Constant (24:00). "Nothing can exist without a cause". The programme concludes god must have caused the universe. However it fails to use the same logic to ask what "caused" god?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Interesting movie you gave me. It raises questions and I love it. No questions = no answers. You would earn kudo's back from me by being just as open minded and view the video I gave to u :-). It deals with the conditions for the origin of life and it interviews atheists, not theists. Darwin himself said; if there are any biological processes found which couldn't have been formed by continuos little tweaks, then my theory is useless. And the proof shows just that, for years now.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
The beliefs and practices of the Hindu pre-classical era (1500–500 BCE) are called the "historical Vedic religion". Modern Hinduism grew out of the Vedas, the oldest of which is the Rigveda, dated to 1700–1100 BCE.
The oldest material in the Old Testament may date from the 13th century BCE. The rest of Old Testament reached its current form at various points between the 5th century BCE (the first five books) and the 2nd century BCE.
Hinduism is much older than christianity.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Lol the hindu's again. First a question: what does BCE means? Second another question: If a book was written now about WW II, would it mean it didn't happen more then 50 years ago? Same story with the Bible. God has always been here and since he created man, God was being called upon. Now also imagine me writing a book and you writing a book. We both might write about unicorns, but it still would be different books with different styles. Same thing in the Bible.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten "BCE" is Before Common Era. It is a non-christian way of refering to "BC" Before Christ.
The bible that you read has indeed been evolving since 13thC. However its roots were polytheistic. It was not a monotheistic bible until around 600 BCE. That was when your god, the god of the Jews, of Christians and Muslims was created.
Here is a great explanation on YouTube: 3.3.3 Atheism - A History of God (Part 1)
Check it out. What have you got to lose? :)
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Oke. The age of the Bible isn't the age of God. Because God has no age. You say: prove it. I say: disprove it. I'm not denying there's faith involved. But so does atheism. A kid who believes he can't ride a bike and won't ride a bike, will not learn how to ride a bike. Same story @ discovering God. I will watch your video! Will you watch one I just looked up for you?; youtube.com/watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw. Shorter video (about nice book): youtube.com/watch?v=rKrTK_WUiCo
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
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Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten I watched your Kirk Cameron video. At 17 he stopped being an Atheist. One has to wonder how much intellectual rigour he had put into becoming an Atheist in the first place. He admitted that he wanted "to be cool". Lightweight!
For every one convert from Atheism, there are thousands to it.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
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Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer As you well know that was not the video I gave first. Next to that you haven't read the book yet. Kirk's not 17 anymore. The 1st link is a must see. What's there to lose? :-).
I don't care about what the masses do, I care about you right now. People are being beaten in Egypt when they rise up for their rights, and "the masses" are watching Britain Got's Talent or other crap (talking about lightweights). So please be honest to yourself and watch this; /watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten v=ppIgFEFUpjw is an hour long!!!
What is there to lose? My sanity for a start.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I believe you were the one who said: "Atheists are not non-believers. They believe in facts. CHRISTIANS are non-believers in evidence." Well I'm giving you all the facts you need, but you respond as I foretold with the unicorn; just some excuse :-). You spend 1.5 hours on each movie, and some movies suck. You don't have an hour to respect yourself and find out more about what's going on in this world? Please don't call Kirk a lightweight then :-). PS: I don't mean to be rude
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten "Darwin himself said; if there are any biological processes found which couldn't have been formed by continuos little tweaks, then my theory is useless. And the proof shows just that, for years now."
To the best of my knowledge every single one of those creationist examples have been disproven. However testing the hypothis is welcome as it is the Scientific Method. What examples do you believe science has failed to debunk?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I will watch your video, but after 2 minutes I have more questions then I could type! Examples: God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; definitely not the same one! 00:53> "according to the evidence, this god began evolving from human ideas"> where's is that evidence? Furthermore; people do micro-evolve. The plague was the will of God? No it wasn't. It was caused because people ignored the 3500 year old hygiene-rules from God (OT) and weren't advanced in science.. You watching? :-)
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
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@Hendrikvanslooten Thanks for watching the video. Most religious types don't bother to listen. Kudos to you.
""according to the evidence, this god began evolving from human ideas"> where's is that evidence?"
The author list his sources in the text that accompanies the video. Michael Freidman and Karen Armstrong are respected academics who specialise in textual examination of old belief systems.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Also: do you think paleographic, radiocarbon, and stratigraphic evidence are real evidence as accurate as when you would count each year that would go by from point zero? Seen a lot of mammoths from which the ribs where apparently 450 million years old (lol), and the legs were 300 million years old. Must have been a hard time for the fellow, no wonder they're extinct :-)! Hard time to tell age from tablets as well. I'm at 5 minutes and still no questions rose I couldn't answer.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
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@Hendrikvanslooten Hendrik mate.
"You say: prove it. I say: disprove it. I'm not denying there's faith involved. But so does atheism" Nonsense. Religion makes outrageous claims, that an invisible god created everything. It is for religion to prove, not others to disprove. Atheism does not need to be proved as such. It is simply that there is no need for a god to explain the universe.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
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@Hendrikvanslooten "Seen a lot of mammoths from which the ribs where apparently 450 million years old (lol), and the legs were 300 million years old. "
Where?!
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
Religion kills all that is good. All religion. Not just christianity or islam but all religion. Every religion has asked for faith killings...the jihad for the muslims, the inquisition and the crusades for cristianity. It's not about being non-believevers, it's about not believing in a god that is by all intents and purposes evil, gelous, (thou shall not have any other gods befor me admits the existens of other gods, but does not want you to believe in those) and petty. I AM AN ANTI-THEIST
warprodigis 1 year ago
@warprodigis Definie religion. If I smash a store in the name of Obama, surely Obama is not to blame? Same story if somedone does it because it's the so called will of God. If people exploid poverty to justify jihad (which so called christians did in dark ages), it's not about finding thé Truth, it's about power, control and money. Read the Bible and you will no such thing being told. People are shown TRUTH & LOVE and are willing to share. Man itself isn't originally into sharing. Isn't that odd
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
Atheists are not non-believers. They believe in facts. CHRISTIANS are non-believers in evidence.
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
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Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer The goal of an atheist is to spread the opinion that God does not exist. Atheist couldn't exist without believers. Even better, you have no reason to exist if (what you say is true and) God doesn't exist. Yet you do exist. You are like people who say there aren't any blue apples, but yet you have the urge to ensure everyone there really aren't any! However, we are not talking about apples, we are talking about the Highest power, master of Everything & everyone.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Your English is fine. Much better than my Dutch.
If I believed in unicorns would the fact that I told you that they existed be enough to convince you?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer :-). No I wouldn't believe you just like that. But if I talked with you about unicorns and I already made up my mind, you could even show me a unicorn and I'd say; hologram! Fake! See my point? There really IS supernatural love with God. Otherwise people wouldn't risked their lives for thousands of years. When you're looking for truth, something that is and stays REAL, plz read the gospels. Or "fill" yourself with things that will perish, like fashion and wealth. Ask God to guide!
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Can you see the hollowness of your reason for faith?
You said "There really IS supernatural love with God. Otherwise people wouldn't risked their lives for thousands of years." This is not a reason to believe.
On this basis Hinduism and Buddism are MORE correct than chrisyiainty. In fact why not worship Apollo?
So why did you chose a younger religion.
Why do you believe? What proof have you for your "unicorn"?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I think you judge too soon and bring damage to yourself by doing so. Hinduism and Buddism aren't older then the Old Testament :-). The point with almost all religions is finding the godliness inside yourself. With Christ, you don't live for yourself anymore but you live to Love your fellow man as much as yourself and God above all. In some religions there is much "love" as well, but only as a way to get to a higher class. So it's still egocentric and a tool. With Christ it's a goal
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer And Islam, founded 700 years AD (so thousands of years later than the Old Testament), presents a god which is angry and distant. The One and Only God however comes to us, every time! The God which isn't limited by time, because he created time itself. The God that created the quadrillions of stars. Each time he will come and take care of those who realize they need His Light. But alot of people grow a hardened heart, because acknowledging God exists means accepting His will/rules..
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Sounds like a nice guy your god. Sadly there is no evidence to suggest that he exists, or if he does, that he is as nice as you say.
The OT god is vengeful and jealous. Is he not the same god in NT? Are they different gods? Why do you just pick the bits from the bible that YOU want to believe?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer There is plenty of evidence. Man's fleshy being however can't even deal with nature, a creation of God. We mess up all ecosystems and ignore the beauty by embracing "rationality". Well, I'm rational. Only my rationality doesn't include fear, so it's open minded and allows looking things at a spiritual level as well. But if you want "rationality", check the statistics of murder/rape/suicide vs. believers in Christ for lets say last 50-100 years? The OT God is the exact same as NT.
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
@Hendrikvanslooten Christian's commit less crime. That's a bold claim.
In Mar 97 based on a survey data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Atheists were a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) but were disproportionately fewer in the prison populations (0.21%)
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I didn't say that. I said there WAS less crime (in totality) at the moment when more people read the gospels more often. Otherwise I wouldn't refer to the last 50-100 years. If I said: christians commit less crime, you could simply take research data from last year or so. BTW you switch subjects often :-). I try to reply as good as possible, but please also allow yourself to think about it, instead of attacking via another way :-). BTW christians aren't always followers of Christ
Hendrikvanslooten 11 months ago
In the words of a brilliant stranger:
Using the Bible to prove God exists is like using a Harry Potter book to prove Hogwartz is a real school
Iswearillpoop 1 year ago
click 1:38 to jump straight to the sermon
lueling 1 year ago
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To all those who are brand new Christians & those who have been justified by faith please DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GARBAGE! This is a religous spirit & has led many to doubt their salvation, exchange their faith which satan is greatly after for a lie, to "prove" your saved via Washer, Piper, Macarthur & the like. Keep your Armor on please!!! I have videos that challenge these heretical teachings of TULIP Calvinism, Armenianism & the like The wrath Washer is exhibiting is not of God but of the flesh
PureGraceEvangelism 1 year ago
@PureGraceEvangelism If there is no wrath, there is no grace.
micahalb 1 year ago
@micahalb No, if there is no Jesus there is no Grace.
PureGraceEvangelism 1 year ago
@PureGraceEvangelism
Hate to split hairs, but Jesus is grace, by virtue of the fact that came to save us from God's wrath (Rom 1:18, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:8)...if we didn't need saving from God's wrath, what did we need saving from...hell? John 3:36 says that for those who aren't in Christ, "the wrath of God remains on them". Which is juxtaposed against eternal life, which means that the people who are in hell are experiencing the wrath of God. Without the wrath of God, His grace is superficial.
micahalb 1 year ago
That's the paradox, it seems the more outrageous the claim is, the more evidence should be supplied to support it.Claiming that God wrote a book for us qualifies as pretty damn strong claim, so from my perspective that book has to be simply Perfect..
However, it has SO many flaws, yet people accept it so easily without thinking anyway..Just pisses me off.
Oh well
ModeLTU 1 year ago
As to the video . . . yeah . . . I don't think its our 'inability' to live up to Leviticus that prevents unbelievers from converting. Its a little thing called honesty. Oh, and actual laws preventing the stoning of people for thought crimes.
Minor details. . .
Love these straw man arguments, tailored expertly to a flock of credulous sheep.
Baaaaaa-d argument.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
i do believe that receiving is not a synonym for faith
fishstickscc 1 year ago
How can people follow a book which says that God who's supposed to be almighty and all forgiving and all-knowing and the most perfect being in the universe has no problem with slavery, sexism and 'putting people to death' for smallest of crimes is beyond me...
Sure, it's nice to comfort yourself with idea of eternal life in a happy place where you will be able to meet your dead relatives, but Bible is a joke.
You are hypocrits for believing the good parts, but ignoring the atrocious ones
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU You like most most atheists and agnostics haven't even studied the bible enough to answer these questions if you take the time to study it you'll get your answer
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, from my perspective extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence.Claiming that a book was given to us by the CREATOR OF THE FREAKING UNIVERSE counts as pretty damn extraordinary to me.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb In my opinion a SINGLE mistake discredits Bible as word of God.It has to be perfect.
And verses like "Deut 25:11-12
If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity." (as well as many others) prove to me that unless God has some sort of mental disorder (Oh noes Im going to hell for saying that), Bible was written by men, not God
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU
the1qb 1 year ago
@ModeLTU To describe it would be very long however look at the hebrew law on violent intervention, and to briefly describe it it's fairly simple. The law makes a very specific point that a woman shouldn't grab the testicles of another man it doesn't say a woman can't intervene it says she can't grab the other man's testicles which has more to do with sexual immorality then the act of intervening in defense of the husband
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, just the fact that it tells something completely unrelated to fighting (why are genitals mentioned at all?) shows that the writer has no idea what he's talking about.
Are we just gonna go back and forth when I post some absolute nonsense from the bible and you reply and try to defend it?..
What about the part about cutting her arm off?Or other 'laws' which require 'putting people to death' for every little 'sin' they commit?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU firstly not every sin has capital punishment i don't know where you even got that from. Secondly, I'm not defending the bible i'm explaining it because you had a very valid question that needed answering. I too had questions about the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and Exodus so i did my homework, I look into these things so that i might know the truth and be able to explain it to people that have questions, in fact answering question over time has given me greater biblical knowledge
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I meant verses like this "For six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death." or Deut 21:18-21 btw.
I consider that sort of harsh.A lot of people should be put to death if we followed "God's" word.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Again, unless God isn't actually all that perfect, verses like that just confirm to me that it was men who wrote them.They wanted to control people by instilling fear of something unexplainable onto primitive people.
And it was a good plan at the time when society wasn't all that developed.I'm sure some people didn't commit crimes just because they were afraid that even if they get away with it in this world "there's a man up in the sky watching you and he will judge you accordingly"
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Firstly, he's not in the sky your attempting to trivialize God. It is not about fear it's about love. When you love Christ you naturally follow his law and he renews you. It's a beautiful thing to experience this. However, you should have a healthy fear of God because you will be judged so you should always re-examine yourself as it says in the new testament to make sure you are in christ. The bible wasn't written to make an argument for God's existence it was written to teach us
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I get the 'respect someone who's higher and more advanced than you' part.
However, you're completely missing my point.
"The bible wasn't written to make an argument for God's existence it was written to teach us".
Well, I don't follow it and think it's a load of bollocks BECAUSE I think that God wasn't the one who inspired it.And I draw that conclusion by actually reading it.
You just automatically assume that there is God.That's your problem
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Of course I'd want there to be a place which equals all the wrongs.Which allows parents to see their dead sons who went to war and died because some power hungry bastards sent them to die.
Which rewards people who were born unlucky (without arms and legs, for example) for 'passing the test' and give them eternity in happiness.
But just because a story makes us feel fuzzy and comforts us about our fear of death, doesn't make it true.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb It's a good way to run from the cold reality."Oh, this really sucks, my goverment is fucking me over...Oh well, I just have to 'pass this test', believe in JC and I will have eternal life in heaven afterwards".That's what people who created religions depend on.
On people who will rather comfort themselves with delusions than face the truth which says that we simply DON'T KNOW.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Speak for yourself my friend i know what i know. I don't worship the bible I worship Christ. I could say your delusional for not believing in God because that's your way of circumventing the fear of judgement upon death. There is one thing i do know and that is that Christ does what he says he'll do and that's a guarantee that i am making to you. Living for Christ isn't easy believe me it's by far the hardest thing to deny yourself to serve him then to do whatever you'd like
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, I feel like an idiot here..
You don't worship bible, you worship Christ.Ok.
So do you agree that Bible has a lot of problems in it as I don't see you refuting any of my points?
Now my question is...IF THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY SOURCE WHICH GIVES YOU 'EVIDENCE' THAT GOD EXISTS (And that Jesus Christ is God's son), HOW CAN YOU STILL BELIEVE IT?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU I refuted your points already that's not the issue i was pointing out that the bible isn't what i worship so no i didn't say there were problems with it. The bible is not the only proof God exists i don't know where you got that from. Christ does what he said he'll do in transforming lives and lastly modern scholarship almost universally agrees that Jesus of Nazareth existed the debate is whether or not he was who he said he was. I don't ignore parts of the bible i refuted your argument
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Christ is connected to the Bible quite strongly.He says that we shouldn't ignore old testament, for example.So if Bible isn't word of God = Jesus Christ isn't the son of God.Which would mean that all the parts where he claims that 'believing' in him will grant you eternal life is bs, right?
How did you refute my points btw?How can you explain II Kings 2:23-24 verse?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb It's like, I'm presenting the evidence that Bible isn't actually a word of God, which means that EVERYTHING written in it is a load of bullocks written by a bunch of primitive men, and yet you just somehow ignore it and continue your senseless "Christ is my savior I have to believe him" babble..
Choosing the right part and ignoring the wrong doesn't make it real.
I'm just lost at your thought proccess and logic..
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb I guess I'm the one being stupid and naive to hope that decades of brainwashing can be cured by simply talking sense into people..
This defense mechanism of not admitting your own mortality is rooted too deep.
good luck have fun in life, sir
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU I also love that because you lose you feel the need to say that i'm somehow brainwashed i came to my conclusion on my own accord and no else's so your proposition is absurd and is more or less a way of getting the last word while retreating
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I guess the debate we're having here is that you justify the actions, which 'God' didn't have trouble with.For me those actions discredit Bible.
From my perspective, putting people to death because they work on sundays or oking the mauling of 42 children because they made fun of the bald man proves that Bible has nothing to do with anything divine.
Again, because God is supposed to be perfect.I think that A SINGLE mistake is enough to discredit Bible as word of God.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Firstly, Bethel where this 2kings event happened was a center for Baal worship which is an abomination to God. secondly when translated from original hebrew properly they were young men not children, thirdly they called him bald not because he was bald but because baldness was associated with leprosy which is seen as a curse, thirdly they told him to ascend and leave like elijah did and in the process mocked a just and holy God as well as his prophets and in doing so brought judgement
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, holy shit, we are arguing about that it's NOT wrong to kill people because they don't have same beliefs as you do..
And no, I wasn't convinced with your explanation anyway.
Why isn't it made CLEAR that those weren't children.Why is one of the most popular translations saying "children", not "youth"?
It is shown that calling prophet bold and getting themselves killed is CORRELATED.
Sure, it is disrespectful.Calling God "all loving and forgiving" is amazingly hypocritical
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb though.
Didn't you notice that most verses in bible require A LOT and I mean A LOT of interpretation to justify them?
Baldness being associated with leprosy?
How can I know it was actually the case in that context?
WHY isn't it made clear?
Why most of the translations say "children" and not "youth"?
Why does everything have to be so ambiguous, IT'S GOD, the smartest and most perfect being who's in charge here.He should know better.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU It's not clear to us because you read into the bible with your cultural presuppositions and norms so when you deposit them into a far different culture with different norms it will seem odd, when you study rome they killed thousands in the coliseum and we say that's brutal but it was normal to them. We for example place almost not negativity towards adultery when in ancient times it was punishable by even death
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Well, that's exactly my point.
Society at that time had different social norms that nowadays.
But why did God have to accomodate himself to the people?Why couldn't he just say 'slavery is wrong'?
Why aren't people agreeing that we should stone "disobedient sons" anymore?
You're telling me that God supposedly changed his views later?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb He's omnipotent and omniscient, but couldn't foresee things which are universally accepted as immoral nowadays?
The fact that God's morals could only progress as fast as human morals could is pretty suspicious from my perspective.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU He didn't change any views this further tells me you lack any level of biblical scholarship and you completely lack the fundamental concepts of the teachings of the bible. Firstly, it clearly states in the bible that the wage of sin is death. So firstly when you sin you are now 100% open to judgement. So firstly once you see that all of us should be in Hell for our sin then you gain a true understanding of the bible
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb "Proper perspective".That's a nice phrase.
I mean, supposed God supports killing people if they work on sunday.Come on.
Why aren't people getting killed for that today?God commanded us to do that!
I mean, the whole idea is to be judged after death isn't it?This life is just a test, remember?
It's like one bilionth part of our overall existence, since there's eternal life and all.
Why is it SO important for God to kill those sinners or non-believers then?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb You're telling me that he STILL wants people who work on sunday, are gay or curse at their parents to 'be put to death'?
It is clearly stated in the old testament.
It can't be undone, he said those things.
So it's either.
1. God isn't all forgiving, but actually rather sadistic, sexist and homophobic.
2. He isn't omniscient, as he couldn't understand why homosexuals are the way they are, or the idea of slavery.
3. Bible isn't the word of God.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Firstly, God isn't sexist you can see this through the actions of Christ. Secondly homophobic isn't even a word in my dictionary that would be like saying liarphobic or pedophilaphobic it's a sin. Pedophilia is wrong however pedophiles say they can't help it, rapists say they can't help it so is it cool for them to do what they want too. Lastly the Christ clarified that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. Lastly, God can bring judgement when he wants it's his call
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Ok, I guess I used homophobic in a wrong way.Homosexualism is just as 'wrong' as dwarfism.
Sure, it's not natural, but anal or oral sex isn't either.
People don't choose to be homosexuals.It depends on the genetics, it's NOT a choice, like many christians like to believe.
It's not perverted, like pedophilia, homosexuals just have their brains wired to be attracted to the same sex.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb The fact that God wanted to punish homosexuals means that he's either ignorant about human biology or just likes to punish people for being different.Which doesn't make a lot of sense for a omniscient being.
And Bible has plenty of sexist verses.Just because people realised that they can't push that shit through any more and wrote 'new testament' to try and help sell their product better, doesn't justify the abominations in the old one.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU And secondly, have you read the new testament at all
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Unless Christ has superiority over God (which I'm quite sure isn't the case), JC's explanations for atrocities in the old testament are irrelevant.
Saying that JC 'fixed' what God already said yet again means that either God isn't all that smart (views towards slavery or homosexualism) or he wasn't the one to say that.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Firstly, there has been no discovered genetic link to homosexuality, this genetic excuse is a cop out for a wide array of immoralities from adultery to theft so this argument is simply pathetic and not true people choose their actions. Thirdly, i could just say pedophiles have thier brains wired to like children. This however, just like your argument isn't an argument at all. Lastly, I'm not afraid to question the bible i don't take a literal interpretation on at least
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb yourself by thinking that wrong doing has no consequence because it has very harsh penalties. God has also made provision to allow you to cleansed of your sins if you don't want to take this free gift that's fine but your condemning yourself
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb It seems that you think that everyone who doesn't follow your religion is a sinner and a bad person who enjoy 'sinning'..
Killing, stealing and adultering isn't accepted because they hurt the society, NOT because invisible man hates that.
Piranhas don't go around and kill each other just because they haven't read the Bible.
There are norms required for society to exist.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU You have a conscious given by God to every man because we are made in his image and we know the difference between right and wrong. Rather we choose to follow it is your choice there is plenty of evidence look at the propheticness of the bible or the historical corroboration or the shroud of turin which is absolutely incredible. Lastly just saying you accept Christ does nothing. You have to give everything you are to him and then you are saved, it is absolutely the most beautiful event
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb "and we know the difference between right and wrong".Apparently God doesn't know the difference between right and wrong himself, as I was pointing out.
His understanding of what is right and wrong only advances as fast as society's norms advance.I think you get what I mean by that.
Let's not start talking about the "prophecies"..They are vague, ambiguous, have no names, dates and most of them were written so that it could refer to ANY event in the future.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb That's the idea of writing a good prophecy.It's like I said "There will be a great war, it will last for days, tons of blood will be shed and one side will emerge victorious!".That sounds pretty impressive right?
Obviously, it is considered a big joke by anyone smart.
It usually takes a lot of interpretation to make the prophecies fit with the events.
I mean, you didn't even refute any of my points.You sort of ignore them and continue talking about how 'JC saved you'
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU You obviously haven't read the old testament because you can see how many detailed prophecies their are
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb I'll just repeat myself, I just realise that Bible has way too many flaws to be a work of an actual God.
Ok then give me some examples of the fulfilled prophecies.I already have the reply ready to the "amazing" city of Tyre 'prophecy' btw.
Let me quote a point some another person made.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Daniel Prophecy of Alexander the great's empire is one very specific one. However, i can tell you haven't read the bible so i would ask you to read it in it's entirety
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Of course I haven't read the Bible.Few verses are enough for me to realize that it wasn't God who wrote it.We can look at it as a source of inspiration or whatever, but I get really pissed when people assume that it was actually God who inspired it.
Can you quote the part where the prophecy mentions Alexander the Great?
From the sources I found, prophecy mentions something vague about a 'mighy king' who will rule in the future.
How is that specific in any way?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU A few verses are just enough to misinterpret if i grab any book and take a couple of passages out of context then of course it'll look funny. Which is why it needs to be read entirely. Your refuting something you know nothing about which makes no sense. Second of all in Daniel chapter 11 is the exact perfect description of what happens to Alexander a few centuries later so look it up
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb How is that misinterpretation?
It's clear that "God" tells that anyone who curses at their parents should be put to death.That homosexuals should be put to death.That all the 'enemies' of God should be put to death.
That's enough for a rational mind to realize that it wasn't God who said it,yes, even if later he promises us eternal life and damnation if we don't believe it.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb DA 11:3 "Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
DA 11:4 "And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.
How is that accurate?
Didn't you get any of the points I made?
Why doesn't it say WHEN or WHERE or the NAME?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb People like you are too naive and too easily impressed.
Give me ONE prophecy which ISN'T written in an ambiguous and vague way which also features location, date or names.
Just ONE.
DA 11:27 "Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time."
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Did you read the whole chapter it talks about the daughter of the king of the south in Daniel 11:6 and how it corresponds perfectly with history. Did you even read the chapter and see how it fits with the actual history. You have to actually look which takes more then 5 minutes when you look you'll see the incredible accuracy of specific events
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb @the1qb I mean, how is this a prophecy?Look at the history.People were cruel and mean to each other for ages.OF COURSE the guy who wrote this prophecy knew that.This sort of vague description is a joke, not a prophecy.
These sort of 'prophecies' can be applied and interpreted in many ways, that's the WHOLE damn idea.
I'm amazed how gullible people are, I really am
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Don't waste your time, chances are those authors wrote the books after the actual events, or were edited later to fit with history.
This debate has been raging for years, and theists will continue defending their nonsense. You can fight and fight and fight, and when it comes down to it, they'll admit your reasoning is sound, but, unfortunately for your reasoning, God exists anyway, so tough.
Go get a 12 pack and do something stupid, thats my plan.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
@Reerrpad5515 Yea, I'm sort of starting to get the picture slowly..
I guess I wish for too much.
I mean, I don't try to talk about whether there is some sort of spirit up there which created the universe or whatever.But it seems like it should be PAINFULLY obvious to anyone rational that Bible is sort of, well, a joke.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Its beautifully written, foundational for english literature, and has plenty of golden nuggets from our history from which we can derive moral intuitions. The problem is that Christians really just don't deserve it, because for them, its meaningless unless God exists. They can't separate the wheat from the chafe because every word is supposedly divinely inspired/authored, so they can't approach it as a valuable resource, they must approach it as THE source. Clearly problematic.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
@the1qb "Virtually any prediction a person can make will come true given enough time. I can tell you the Earth will be hit by a large meteor. When it eventually happens, will that make me some sort of prophet or fortune teller? No, it will just mean statistics finally caught up with my prediction."
Pretty much all the prophecies are vague and were written with the intention to possibly apply to MULTIPLE events in the future.
That's EXACTLY why there are no names, dates or locations
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb That's because people who wrote that realized that if they wrote down an accurate date or location and then that prophecy didn't come true, they were screwed.It's easier to use this specific tricky and ambiguous style of writing.
Again, it was GOD, the omniscient being who inspired people to write down those so called prophecies, right?.He knows everything.Why couldn't he give us something concrete and obvious?It doesn't make any sense from my perspective.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb It was obvious we were gonna agree to disagree from the very beginning.I think you get the truth in your subconscious, you just don't want to get it out and admit the reality.
I'd like JC to come to earth and save 3 y olds dying from cancer or something.This blind worshipping without any evidence is useless and hypocritical.
But like I said, you can make people believe antyhing when you give them answers to the (currently) unanswerable questions and promise them eternal life..Oh well
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU It is the most beautiful thing because though they die a horrible death they get to forever share in glory with Christ. The funny thing is that if there is no God then a kid dying from cancer isn't sad because we're just accidents anyways we have no worth no value no meaning. So before you deny Christ think of what you asserting in his place
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Well, that's exactly my point.People like you simply have hard time admitting the cruel reality, which says that we are just another species of animals (albeit more advanced one) and when we die we most likely simply vanish forever.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I would LOVE if there was actually God, if all the wrongs were undone and people who deserved better, but simply were unlucky, got rewarded at least after death.
Why wouldn't I?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb @the1qb I'd like God to present at least SOME proof if he wants smart people to believe him.Old book which tells us that it was inspired by God doesn't really qualify when it also has no problem with slavery, sexism and killing people because "Lord" wanted that.
I mean, it amazes me how easily people will follow if you put down the "just worship and you will get eternal life in a happy place, I promise! ;) " stamp on it and give comfort and salvation about death
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, how does saying and accepting JC change who you are as a person?
Are you implying that you would have done more bad things in your life if you didn't believe that God will not like it and punish you for that?
It's easy to delude yourself and not accept the reality which doesn't give us an explanation.
Repeating "you are condemning yourself" doesn't make smart people believe you.That trick is the oldest trick in the book.EVERY religion says the same, that's the idea
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Oh man..
You are pretty damn behind in understanding that humans are animals and are often driven by primitive instincts.
Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is like comparing stabbing someone to death and a boxing match.
One of them hurts others, other than is just done for the pleasure.
Besides, do you really think people would CHOOSE to be gay?
Are you nuts?
Why would anyone choose to risk to get rejected by the society, be laughed at and abused?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Just because they want to taste that "Sweet sin and hurt our beloved father", right?COME ON.
Think man, think.It's a FACT that homosexuals don't choose what they are attracted to.Just because you choose not to believe doesn't make it a reality.
So yea, you are saying that God REALLY wants to kill us for every sin we commit, but he holds that urge back, because he wants to give us a 2nd chance eh?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
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@the1qb And I say "every little sin" because according to God, we should be put to death by cursing at our parents, for example.
He has the right to do so because we are all sinners, but he doesn't so, so we should be thankful and worship and do whatever he says?
I mean, isn't that a relationship based on FEAR MONGERING?
I think it fits the definition pretty accuratelly.
How is that not savage and arrogant on God's part?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
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@the1qb "Lastly, God can bring judgement when he wants it's his call".
Fear mongering much?
Again, that's the difference between me and you.You are afraid to question, as consciously or subconsciously you fear that God will hear your doubts and punish you for it.
Yea, it's possible he's a bloodthirsty arrogant douchebag who has no problem killing or commanding to kill a bunch of people if they don't agree with him.
But yet again, IMO it's more likely that it wasn't God at all
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU the first chapters of genesis. You however want a user friendly God who doesn't punish people when the reality is sin is incredibly serious and just because society has taken a different stance doesn't change the reality that sin has a price. God would be just in killing you at your first sin if he wanted he however shows grace in giving us time to repent and turn to him. Once you understand that God owes you nothing you owe him it will change your life and you can stop deluding
the1qb 1 year ago
@ModeLTU Secondly as you read in the new testament the law brought the knowledge of sin and the penalty. This does not however mean the doctrine of forgiveness didn't exist. The laws were shown to be the most that a crime could or should be punished by. Just as today even though their is a maximum penalty it is not always carried out however it is still just if the maximum penalty was given. SO when you see from the proper perspective there is nothing unreasonable at all
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb Oh, you mentioned God DIDN'T change his views?O_o
Ok, why aren't 'disobedient sons' getting stoned to death nowadays?
What about slavery?
You're saying that all of that were just society's norms?
So then again I ask you, why would God need to accomodate his views to the human standards back in the day?Why would he not say simply tell everyone that slavery was wrong?
It seems that some things like killing and stealing were prohibited, but others like slavery were ok in God's eyes
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU upon themselves. Them jeering Elisha in and of itself wouldn't have brought this upon them. However, them being Baal worshipers and them attacking the prophets of God, by telling him to ascend they were threatening his life, however this is somewhat lost in the english translations. All their sins and inequities brought judgement upon themselves. God didn't do anything unjust
the1qb 1 year ago
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@the1qb Why aren't we going around and killing people who worship "false gods" nowadays then?
"However, them being Baal worshipers and them attacking the prophets of God, by telling him to ascend they were threatening his life"
Really?
How do you make THAT distinction?
I mean, it seems passages always require a LOT of interpretation to justify them.
How come it isn't made more clear.
God should be smart enough to realise that people will read these later and ask questions
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb I mean, the guys who wrote the Bible messed up.They wanted to instil fear of some invisible entity who 'will judge everryone afterwards'.And those horrific stories worked quite well on majority of the population back in the day.
Saying that anyone who disagrees with his parents should be stoned to death helped to maintain the respect for authority, for example.
If Bible was written in modern days they couldn't say that anyone who disagrees with them should be put to death
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Nowadays it's all about "forgiveness and showing people the true way" eh?
Back in the day Lord would have no problem killing a bunch of people instead of being forgiving and helping to reach the true way.
So it's either that the morals of the God change and grow only as fast as human morals do or (more logical explanation) bible wasn't inspired by God at all.
Slavery is another topic in that context.It was okeyed in bible many times.
Any modern human realises it's wrong
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb And I'm not talking about any other "Gods".By God I don't mean some sort of entity, a spirit, whatever you'd like to call it.I mean THE Judeo-Christian God.
Ok, we can say that Bible isn't the only proof that specific God exists.But any flaw in the Bible should nulify his existence, right?You can't say that Bible wasn't written by God, but Jesus Christ is still son of God who will grant us eternal life, right?
Do we follow the same train of thought here?
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb The difference between me and you is that you automatically assume that it was "God" who said those things, because you're afraid that if you don't accept it, God will punish you.That's called fear mongering..
I question whether it was actually God who inspired people to write those things.
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@the1qb Think about verse like "Col 3:22-24" (I won't quote, takes too much space)
Isn't this EXACTLY what you would say to your slaves to convince them that God wants them to obey you?
Oh, reward is also mentioned.That's pretty important tool to brainwash people.
It's waaay easier to control a bunch of primitive people and abuse them if you convince them that 'as long as you follow these commands from (supposed) god' you will gain eternal life in heaven and all the wrongs will be perished
ModeLTU 1 year ago
@ModeLTU I would like to say you've greatly misinterpreted one of the most beautiful passages in the bible and this same message was expanded a little inthe book of Ephesians. Paul is telling everyone that no matter what your situation it doesn't matter, you must give your life to Christ you must make your life a living testament to him in everything you do including your work, because any wrong done to you will be repaid and any wrong you do must be punished so submit to christ and live for him
the1qb 1 year ago
@the1qb In modern world we have..Wait for it..LAW ENFORCEMENT!If you commit crimes you will get punished according to the law.
Ok, that's a fair point.Why does Paul insist that slaves should listen to their masters no matter what then?It specifically mentions the authority issue and makes sure that slaves FEAR the authority.Slaves are way less likely to rebel if they believe that "God" wants them to be in the position they are in.
Oh, btw, why are we talking about slavery as if it's normal?
ModeLTU 1 year ago