Really this is a bad discussion on both sides. Todd's right of course. Hard to read the bible and not believe in hell if you believe the bible. But Todd really lost focus. Should have just gone to every verse where Jesus warns about hell and the bible warns about hell.
As it was Todd let Pagitt just vomit this New Age gobblygook that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
Gobbledygook? i agree doug did little to give us a picture of 'here and there'; IMHO, one on one interviews should be kept to a surface level of content, debating deep theology and all things spiritual can only be done, in Spirit and in Truth, when other witnesses are present in an open atmosphere of mutual love and respect and without agenda from either party.
Todd Friel doesn't let him get a word in. He's really arrogant...
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
To "Fdparis21" denying "eternal judgment" is denying hell. Do you understand that Scripture describes these two as one in the same? It most certainly is.
Todd Pagitt is a moron!!! Why would anyone follow this guy?! He denies the doctrine of hell. He denies the doctrine of judgement. He doesn't even understand orthodox Christianity!
lmao if as a christian a pastor speaks about the word makes it more confusing and makes it sound philosophical instead of the unwavering word of God...run!!! They've obviously reached whatever they are saying philosophically...it's what i've noticed in all these emergent "pastors".
Todd says that Pagitt's view of hell is "outside of orthodox historic Christianity". I wonder if Todd realizes that the Easter ORTHODOX church holds a very similar view of hell that Doug believes in and that the Orthodox church is very historical!!!!!
Trying to make out who 'won' with a tiny snippet of an interview that is handily cut off by music? Fail. Perhaps a better question would have been "Who will be *here* *then* at the recreation of all things (New Earth, New Jerusalem etc.)
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels… And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:41, 46) Seems pretty clear to me.
How hard is it to answer a question. If there is a heaven and hell who will be there? He will not answer because they believe that everyone will be there. There is no punishment. All we need to really worry about is our own walk with God. God will judge Doug on his misleading of his followers.
there is not a drop of evidence that hell is eternal and if you think so then by all mean send my a message and I will gladly refute your argument : )
(3.) & why does it say in the New Testament "every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" ? Why does it say that God created all things for his pleasure, are you saying it pleases our sovereign God to damn us to eternal torture? If God doesn't want us to go to hell, and is omnipotent, why wouldn't he just nip our existence in the bud? Why did early orthodox Christians accept what we now call "universalism"?
(2.) Gehenna was also the place where people partook in the gross sacrifice of children to the false god Molech. Every time Jesus speaks of punishment, it's directed to the Jews under the covenant. & tell me this, is hell exists, why isn't it present in the Old Testament? Sheol & Hades which means the grave are present, & why doesn't God mention in Genesis, that he also created a place of eternal torture?
(1.) Hell is the second death, the first death is the death of the body, where the soul awaits the day of judgement. The second death is the spiritual death, the real death. Jesus doesn't preach about Hell, Jesus preaches about "Gehenna" and it's directed towards the Jews under the Mosaic covenant with God. Gehenna was a real geographical place, the valley of Himmon, where a large fire always burned because people would discard their waste there....
A new heaven is symbolic in revelations for upper realms, such as political realm. Earth being the nature of man since we come from earth or lower realm under heaven. Thus GOD through Christ will make a new political system with new leaders(refering to the disciples and faithful followers, Abraham etc) to educate man of the things of GOD so that when all believe, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of GOD. Alot of people dont read revelation as a book of symbles. A catholic mistake
@detailplus the fact that hell is a reoccuring belief in other religions does not prove it is not real. on the contrary it further supports that their must be a place of eternal punishment sense almost of religions on earth agree on this. the only problem is they get their info from demonic sources and we get it from God. i dont know how the battle in heaven is in any way relvelant to this topic. heaven is not symbolic it is literal. you are overallorgizing scripture when it need not be
@detailplus the book of revelations is not a book of allegories. it uses metaphores figurative language and symbols to communicate concrete truths. Any scholar in escatology will tell you this. get any book or commentary on the book of revelations and you'll see it for yourself. Revelations 20:10 reads-And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever
@FollowTheCloud doug paggit is part of an unorthodox heretical stream of christianity that is not biblical & it has been rejected over the course of christian history by all bible scholars preachers and teachers. if u study church history u will see this to be an absolute fact,Doug paggit is the leader of a form of liberal christianity. It is the same liberalism of the past, in a new wrapping paper. but its always the same.Their is nothing new under the sun (ecclesiastes) history repeats itself
Doug sounds like someone who doesn't believe that the Bible is Spirit-inspired, so he sees it as internally inconsistent. Based on that belief, it makes sense that he would believe what he believes. That solidly places him in heretic country, without a doubt.
But Todd sounds like a clanging cymbal. There's absolutely no love in his argument, and actually pushes away people like me that don't know anything about him, despite the fact that I happen to agree with him. (1 Corinthians 13:1)
Doug: "God will create a new Heaven and a new Earth."
Todd: "So, who's going to be there?"
Doug: "There?"
Ugh. Doug just got finished saying that God is going to create a new Heaven and a new Earth. Todd asks who's going to be in this new Heaven and new Earth and uses the word "there" to condense "new Heaven and new Earth" into an easier-to-say phrase. Doug then denies that he's talking about a "place", except he denies that he meant a "place". Uh...yeah. Right. Todd wins, hands down.
Doug Pagitt is pretending to have some sort of theological superiority, that he clearly only wishes he had, while he is perverting the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ with a bewitched delusion and another spirit and another gospel and another Jesus other than that given to us in the Bible. II Co 11, Gal. 1 & 3
After reading "A Christianity Worth Believing," I understand a lot more of what Doug Pagitt is trying to say here...but it still isn't seem biblical one bit. His constant mantra of, "You're a Platonic Dualist!" against Todd Friel is about as unfounded and nonsensical as it was in his book when he made the case Christianity took that turn without any evidence that it did.
Pagitt is the one who is uncomfortable with the idea of "place" in the concepts of heaven, earth and hell and then accuses the host with embracing Platonic dualism. He's the one with a Platonic cosmology!
I agree Todd Friel is dangerous. I can't say that I detected an ounce of humility in his conversation with Doug. Also the "early church" did not even have the New Testament so I'm not sure that Todd is correct in his understanding of how the "early church" interpreted Scripture.
@rescueiscoming the early church had the apostles and their writings-doug is wrong-read the Bible-there is a Heaven and hell-unbelievers WILL go to hell-those who have heard of Jesus and reject His saving Grace will go to hell
the point of balance here is that some religious bigots are so obsessed with hell as a means of terrorizing people into becoming religious, that if it did notexist they would have had to invent it.
for this kind of fanatic has nothing but fear of hell.
hell is real, but focussing on it, as i have heard hell fire preachers do, is heresy
Doug'S "MYSTICAL" stance on everything is ludicrous. It is man's wisdom at best, based on an occult experienced worldview of the universe and that man (he/Doug) is the center of all things, versus Jesus Christ and His Word.
Yes Pagitt is in doubt and denial and seems to teaching doubt and denial to his congregation BUT Friel comes across as a condescending, smarmy dork. We MUST interact with reason, intelligence and fairness. If the goal is to expose and correct, then surely there are better ways to phrase the questions rather than be condescending and patronizing. Stop snide communication and lack of real dialogue and talk to each other.
wow!! Todd Friel is super obsessed with the "good Buddhist"
This guy (todd) is a crappy philosopher.
The tenets of his philosophical understanding of the scriptures is a stark distinction between "us" and "them", and its no wonder the world hates Christians, the thought that we go around saying that "we are saved" and "good buddhists (and other un-christian groups) are not saved and will go to hell"
The fear of the hereafter; the fear of being tortured in some hellhole of eternal fire, the fear of the clergy and the authority of the Church, this hideous, hideous fear, is the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is in fact, the money machine that keeps the wealth flowing into the Christian coffers).
pagett is a circumventing satanic demon to reconstitute concepts. that is pure insane lunacy. you pagett are a filthy game playing word perverting fool that obviously hates clear straight truth. because there is no truth in you or your father known as slew foot.
@LaneCh The way Todd Friel deals with those who disagree with him is fundamentally unChristian and unreasonable. He just sounds like one of those shock jocks who are uninformed and graceless. He never engaged with Doug Pagitt. He only had dogmatic slogans to say. His tone is always sarcastic.. he's ridiculous really. The Reformed Christians in the US are some of the most hypocritical ppl you'll ever see.
Pagitt is the one who is uncomfortable with the idea of "place" in the concepts of heaven, earth and hell and then accuses the host with embracing Platonic dualism. He's the one with a Platonic cosmology!
@SteelersSuckBig Take a look at Revelation 20:15 and Revelation 21:27 and then read both chapters in their entirety and I am sure you will see that Mr. Pagitt looses the debate with the Bible.
@SteelersSuckBig DOUG PAGGIT ONLY WON IF YOURE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE TOPIC,,,HES A SNAKE,,,A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING,,,ONLY A LIAR OR A TYRANT TWISTS THE PLAIN MEANING OF WORDS,,,WORDS TO LIVE BY,,,GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THAT
This is why the EC is so very scarry. When asked specific questions, he would not give a specific answer. The EC is not a Christian church. Can't be. The denouncing of hell and heaven and all come to salvation through Christ. Everyone, sinners, budhists, muslims etc. I have been searching for an answer. My mind is made up. This is sad. They are moving away from truth. He is heritical in his doctrine. He needs to denounced & turned over to satan for a season. Pray for his salvation
Funny they believe in Luther when Luther was devoted the Virgin Mary but Tod Friel. And the early church father believed Mary was the Mother of God not in the manner how Protestants say Mother of Christ to separate Mary's true role as Mother of the one true God and called her Virgin through out her life.
Christians, by faith in Jesus, will be in the first resurrection, and those who have not believed will fall into judgment at the end of the 1,000 year millenium. There is a time element after this 1,000 year period where Satan is let loose for a season (Isaiah refers to a time when the infant of days will live to be a 100 years old, and if being a sinner, he is cursed. Could this be the period of the Lord's major work along with the resurrected saints?
this todd guy is way too patient with his guest.. he tried to give every possible opportunity for doug to explain where hes coming from, yet the guest just constantly repeats his nonsense over and over again...
i don't know a whole lot about Doug Pagitt bui I do know that the idea of hell is relativily new. It is not to be found in the OT and was not the accepted teaching of the early christian church, and that means the first 400-500 years.....it's scary to think outside the "religious box" that most christians live in but it is benificial. Peace to all!!
Psalms 9:17 the wicked shall be turned into hell. Isaiah 66:24 gives the same description as Mark 9:43-44 . There are 30 ref to Hell in the OT. Duet 32:22 says it's burns. Sheol-Hebrew Hell -Greek Luke 16:19 Jesus talks about the 2 parts of Hades which after His death & resurrection the Abraham's bossom or paradise side was done away with because he led the OT saints out of there Matt 27:52 & Eph 4:8-10. As Jonah 2:2 Jesus was in the belly of the earth psalm 16:10 Acts 2:27
Peace be with ou Boom, regards to your post, you bring up an excellent point. Unfortunately there are those who would call you a heretic for even bringing this historic fact to life. I know this fictional place does not exist as fellow Christians would have you believe.
Ballony. It was not fully developed as we read it in the scriptures, but was understood to exist from oral interpretation of the scriptures. Just like there is a resurrection which the sadducees opposed. But Jesus said "God said 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' God is not the God of the dead but of the living." And likewise Jesus said hell was a place "where the worm dieth not and the fires are not quenched."
Pagitt dances like a blind ballerina. He dances around the questions making a 20 minute conversation when all he has to really say is, "I an pretty much a universalist"
Pagitt denies so much Scripture; for example, the Lake of Fire, Paul listing people that will not inherit the Kingdom of God, Christ reffering to eternal (not internal) hell.
Pagitt could not argue directly because he knows enough about the Bible. He should have just been like the Mormons and say, "here is something new"
Doug Pagitt is the head pastor of Solomon's Porch (church) in South Minneapolis. His Emerging Church movement is definitely not based on the Bible but his own personal interpretation of what the Bible stands for, mixed with with a hotch-potch of secular philosophies.
He is very good at using confusion, bringing into the discussion Plato & Socrates, and then using divertionary tactics to prevent Todd Friel from getting his opinion on bible topics.
The OT has no understanding of a burning hell. Pre christian paganism had the idea of a burning hell with demons and torture. It's the antichrist who will be tortured for eternity, the others will be destroyed at the second death.
Psalms 9:17 the wicked shall be turned into hell. Isaiah 66:24 gives the same description as Mark 9:43-44 . There are 30 ref to Hell in the OT. Duet 32:22 says it's burns. Sheol-Hebrew Hell -Greek Luke 16:19 Jesus talks about the 2 parts of Hades which after His death & resurrection the Abraham's bossom or paradise side was done away with because he led the OT saints out of there Matt 27:52 & Eph 4:8-10. As Jonah 2:2 Jesus was in the belly of the earth psalm 16:10 Acts 2:27
The bible is a book of revelation. Neither Noah, Abraham or Moses saw things fully but only from the revealed perspective God allowed—they saw only glimpses. The prophets saw more, but they all longed to see what we now understand. The NT was the revelation of the OT. The Jews didn't see the gentile church age. Peter didn't understand God's purpose for the gentiles until he saw the Holy Spirit rest on the soldier's family. Jesus, the Son of God revealed Hell in it's fullness. I'll trust Him.
doug paggit was scared to give straight forward answers to straight forward questions becuase he is a heretic and he is teaching false doctrines and he doesnt want to be exposed.
todd friel serves God, doug paggit serves man in the name of God. you wont find doug paggits gospel in the bible. youll find it in mystic books and people of other religions trying to tell us what the bible says. you dont go to the unregenerate to interpret the bible. thats when everything goes wrong.
@FollowTheCloud ABSOLUTELY MY BROTHER/SISTER. ABSOLUTELY! What Todd was speaking was correct. Jesus said "I go to prepare a PLACE..." Place! So it is a place. And there will be alot who will not enter it. He was upset because he's a liar and the truth is not in him. He's a eccumenical liar! And he is teaching new age lies! It's universalism and it's the WIDE GATE that Jesus warned us of.
@FollowTheCloud you will find hell in almost every pagan religion and in mystic books. Babylonians started hell back with nimrod. Jesus said that in the last days(not last hours) people will believe in fables(stories made up by man). Hell has always been a side road of the truth(distraction). Pls tell me what revelations is talking about when it describes a war in heaven against lucifer and Gabriel?? or is it Michael?? thankyou, I wait for your reply
@FollowTheCloud if you cant understand revelations how can you understand other scripture.The bible is a puzzle thats needs its pieces put together. Because you believe hell is for the devil and his angles.Well, where did the devil come from? how did he get there or is he there yet??hells origin started with babylon beliefs. Can you show me where the devil is mentioned in old testament please? im bringing up surounding topics because there the same piece of the puzzle.revelation is not litural.
Christians so misunderstand that the judgment spoken of in the NT had to do with Old Covenant Israel which took place in AD70 and continues today... the Jews are still in torment and gnashing their teeth.
The New Heavens and Earth have to do with the New Covenant and Christ's presence within us. Jesus Himself said the Kingdom of God is within us!
Mainstream Christianity is described in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Don't get angry... pray about it and let the Lord show you.
The fact that Christians think they could enjoy Heaven knowing that good people (some of them friends and family!) are suffering eternal torture in Hell speaks volumes. It's unconscionable. The fact that they actually get excited about it makes them monsters. Christians don't weep for "the lost", they revel in imagining what they think is their fate. Revel in it!! Christianity is utterly bereft of compassion. What a horrible, ugly, wicked religion.
I agree. I totally understand where you're coming from. I hope you won't let Christians block your view of Christ. I'm a Christian and guys like Todd Friel enfuriate me! We're not all like him. If Jesus were to talk to people like Todd Friel I'm sure he'd talk to him like he spoke to the Pharisees in the Bible. I apologize for people like him.
Friel is not nearly intelligent enough to understand scripture, and Pagitt is too intelligent to make his viewpoints understood by anyone but himself. I get where he's coming from, because the idea of "Hell" as we know it is a Western creation based on a Hellenestic understanding of soul/body relationships. The early church didn't believe in souls. Read your Bible and forget about Calvin, Luther, and especially Augustine. They didn't write scripture.
(Part Two)In Adam all died in Christ all are made alive.(1 Corinthians 15:22)
All references to punishment have to be seen through this and a hundred
others verses and (the context of the love of God which we cannot even comprehend)
- verses that speak the same language, including whole paragraphs and books (you would notice) if you have a heart of flesh and not of stone.--dont get lost due to the sin of pride (the us verses them mentality).
@muti7777 Yeah I'm not sure whats wrong with asking that either. I think Pagitt was trying to get him to ask who will experience it. All of Pagitt's answers were so vague.
@muti7777 revelations is a book of symbles. Heaven doesnt mean GODs place of dwelling. Please fill free to ask a question. Revelations is not an easy book and needs alot of observing. Angles in revelations doesnt always mean angles either, same with clouds, waters, seas, sun, moon etc. thankyou
Friel takes it upon himself to set everyone's doctrine straight... not to mention he's completely twisting Pagitt's words (re-listen to the part about the Muslim funeral... what Pagitt says and what Friel says at the end). I don't get what the hell Pagitt is saying either... I'll be honest... both of these guys get on my freaking nerves.
People. Please understand. Todd Friel is a radio personality/entertainer. The stations he works for have to generate revenue, or, they will shut down. He is for entertainment purposes. He would be summarily dismissed from an actual scholarly discussion among real Biblical scholars who concern themselves with archaeology, historical research, etc. Friel is a silly little entertainer, and, a bad one at that. A "never was" stand up comiedian. He is a coward.
He's an entertaining guy. He's funny and has a goofy attitude. The rest of what you said I have to disagree with. He street preaches the gospel to people he doesn't know. Which is terrifying if you haven't tried it. So i don't think he's a coward. You say he is a "never was" comedian, which is probably a good thing. He was a worldy comedian before he was saved and I'm glad his comedian career failed and he got saved so that he could spend his life glorifying God. Which he does daily. God bless
Yeah they're interested in all that, but you forgot one very very important thing that real scholars are, or should be, concerned about.... SCRIPTURE. and that's all Todd is concerned about. This guy has misinterpreted what scripture has said about judgment and repentance. So be cool man cuz Friel isn't requesting something unreasonable, just the word of GOD! Which you can find in your handy Bible. God bless bro!
hahaha, Todd Friel quotes people in the last 500 years... who were all greatly influenced by platonism. He doesn't quote ANY early Christian who came before Augustine, before Clement, before Platonism took over Christianity... when the Early Church was more similar to the New Testament Writers.... and NONE of the great orthodox guys were Platonic Dualists.
"quoting" Jesus, out of context, without exegesis, doesn't count. Todd didn't do ANY exegesis, he simply quoted 4 different things and put them together.
I'm not confused. Besides, I wasn't talking about the Scriptural references. Todd himself directly said "so these historic Christians wouldnt agree with me?" and then he quotes a bunch of guys after 1500, instead of the early church. My point is you can't appeal to tradition and only go back 500 years, there is 1500 years of tradition before.
Again sir, Friel is a Orthodox Reformed Protestant Christian, just like Martin Luther, John Edwards, and John Calvin, who were, you guessed it, late Christians. Their system of theology, which is based strictly, and I mean strictly, from scripture, is exactly that of which Friel practices. Hey man Im not tryin to get on your case either brother, I just love theological conversations that's all. Check those guys out that I mentioned btw. God Bless you!
the word "hell" appears 32 times in the old testament and 23 times in the new testament. 55 all up. The concept seems to originate in the bible, so to say differently would be...different I guess
The word "hell" never came off the lips of Jesus or any of his disciples. Why? because it is an English word of Germanic etymology. Furthermore, any studied Biblical scholar can tell you the word was regrettably and wrongly used to mistranslate three very separate and distinct Hebrew and Greek words. This isn't hard to read and acknowledge. Simply study the truth of how translators (who are unfortunately UNINSPIRED) performed sloppy work in doing this. Historical fact.
I think this is part of the problem with the Protestant rejection of Purgatory. I ran across a writing of mine from a couple years ago when I was interested in all this "Emergent" stuff. I said that I don't presume to hope for universal Heaven, but universal Purgatory -- the "purifying fire" of 1Pe 1:7. Most people won't make it to Purgatory though, because they aren't turned towards God, they don't pursue God. Pagitt expresses this same hope by replacing Hell with Purgatory.
have you ever told lie ? have you ever looked at a woman-----sorry i forgot this only works when you threaten them with hell , hell was invented by catholics and enforced by Calvinism.
and no the early church fathers didnt teach it ,Paul who brought the gospel to us didnt mention it once.
You're blind and refuse to see the truth. So when Jesus spoke about hell in the gospels it was a figment of our imagination? REPENT AND BELIEVE! You belong to your father the devil...
"REPENT AND BELIEVE! You belong to your father the devil... "
What is that? Because someone doesn't believe in hell, they're a child of the devil? Too bad that's not what ANY creed states. The creeds are the accepted doctrinal boundaries of the church universal. Sorry, can't call someone a child of the devil for not believing in hell. Also, Jesus didn't talk about hell. He never once used the word. Do some homework. He used the word Gehenna. Hell (hel) is equal to hades in greek. Not gehenna.
Well sir since we derive a lot of the English language, and the Bible, from Greek,and Hebrew and Latin, I didn't forget about them, it only make since that atleast one word from the language. And Christ talks plenty about punishment for our sins, as does Paul, even though he is not as important. Check out the book of John as well as Romans. Thats where Friel got a lot of his verses from. But hey dont take my word for it, check it out for yourself. God Bless my man!
Thank goodness i've never heard of this Doug Pagitt guy before, i hope never to come across him again. What doesn't he understand about the question? He can't understand the word "there" or "place"
These Emergent guys are the tools being used to undermine Christians' faith and bring people into the one world religion. So much of what I've read by these Emergent folks is identical to New Age philosophies/beliefs.
ima Christian Universalist this guy Todd doesnt have a clue hes so wrapped up in Christian fundamentalism which maligns the character of God unbelievable
It would be nice to think that God would be merciful and save all people regardless of their religious faith, but the sad fact is that it ain't gonna happen...Jesus is very clear that there is a path that leads to DESTRUCTION...it is a broad path. many will go into it. Universalism is taught nowhere in the Bible. Was Jesus maligning the character of God when he said this? how about Matthew 25: 46? How do these verses, and many others, fit into the Universalist doctrine of salvation?
Christian fundamentalism maligns the character of God?
Gal.1:8,9 But even if we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be ACCURSED. As we have said before, so now I say again, if ANYONE preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be ACCURSED.
Sorry bob701z, but the apostle Paul disagrees with you, and so emphatically so, that he said it twice. Tell me do you think Paul is maligning the character of God?
Your problem is that you are believing in a false gospel which is supported by mistranslated Bibles and scriptures. Historians who are honest will agree, that you believe in a manufactured religion not the true Gospel of Inclusion...sorry bro :(
1 Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
When you look at the people that Todd listed, many of them exsisted in the last 500 years. There are still 1,500 years of Church history before that. To simply cut out 1,500 years of teaching (for better or worse), is dangerous. When we develop our worldview, we look to find evidence to support our views. Whether Emergent, fundamental, Catholic or Orthodox.
Todd Friel is dangerous. He treats scripture with the same disregard for context and intention that other radio personalities treat the words of politicians. He does propoganda instead of theology and values self-proclaimed victory over truth. It is apalling.
"JameSteve is dangerous. He treats scripture with the same disregard for context and intention that other radio personalities treat the words of politicians. He does propaganda instead of theology and values self-proclaimed victory over truth. It is appalling."
Now if I were to assert that, would it have any merit whatsoever if I didn't back it up with anything?
Todd Friel is a challemging but Bible believing Christian who suts through the nonsense that deceved apostates put up to blur the truth- Well done Todd
Todd Friel is not a christian. I don't think most Fundies really are. They are a lot more Gnostic than Christian. They think that if you believe or "know" the right doctrine, or right things, then you get to go to heaven. That is not what "saved by faith" means at all. So....
What is your definition for a "fundie" Someone who is a Bible believing Christian who believes in the literal Bible? Instead of twisting with new age words what it syas? Pagitt forgets Jesus was in Hell and speaks the most about it- Gnashing of teeth and weeping? not in the new world- Hell is real
theres no secret knowledge my friend, god is light he has revealed to us everything we need to know about him. and there is no private interpretation of scripture.
Sorry - this conversation should have been interesting and clear. I think that part of the reason it was unclear is because the interviewer used a strategy of cornering the interviewee with closed ended questions. The interviewer took for granted that the categories used to articulate his own perspective is sufficient to articulate the difference between his perspective and the perspective of others. Consequently, the perspective of the interviewee is unclear.
Interesting question. I see nothing wrong with close ended questions except when used to corner when cornering is not conducive to understanding where someone is coming from. I don't think the listeners had a clear understanding of where the interviewee is coming from. I also don't think the interviewee had a clear idea of where the interviewer is coming from. Why could not the interviewer facilitate a more fruitful dialog where at the end everyone understands each other's perspective?
I see. A little background info might help: Pagitt is part of the emerging church, and him and his group have been putting out things like this for the last few years. Friel knew where he was coming from which is why he was so blunt, and Pagitt was clear about it, too. (cont...)
Really this is a bad discussion on both sides. Todd's right of course. Hard to read the bible and not believe in hell if you believe the bible. But Todd really lost focus. Should have just gone to every verse where Jesus warns about hell and the bible warns about hell.
As it was Todd let Pagitt just vomit this New Age gobblygook that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
Pagitt must read "The Message" as his bible.
JacobBecomesIsrael2 2 weeks ago
Has Doug ever even read the Bible???
astherrien 2 weeks ago
Gobbledygook? i agree doug did little to give us a picture of 'here and there'; IMHO, one on one interviews should be kept to a surface level of content, debating deep theology and all things spiritual can only be done, in Spirit and in Truth, when other witnesses are present in an open atmosphere of mutual love and respect and without agenda from either party.
KingdomUploader 2 months ago
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Todd Friel doesn't let him get a word in. He's really arrogant...
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
To "Fdparis21" denying "eternal judgment" is denying hell. Do you understand that Scripture describes these two as one in the same? It most certainly is.
jamesbellamy1013 5 months ago
Todd Pagitt is a moron!!! Why would anyone follow this guy?! He denies the doctrine of hell. He denies the doctrine of judgement. He doesn't even understand orthodox Christianity!
jamesbellamy1013 5 months ago
lmao if as a christian a pastor speaks about the word makes it more confusing and makes it sound philosophical instead of the unwavering word of God...run!!! They've obviously reached whatever they are saying philosophically...it's what i've noticed in all these emergent "pastors".
stop08it 6 months ago
Todd says that Pagitt's view of hell is "outside of orthodox historic Christianity". I wonder if Todd realizes that the Easter ORTHODOX church holds a very similar view of hell that Doug believes in and that the Orthodox church is very historical!!!!!
brendos444 7 months ago
@brendos444 I agree with you 100%
poetaredimido 4 months ago
I think Todd could of did a little better than that but it's ok.
gergertube 7 months ago
pagitt didn't deny hell, he denied eternal torment
fdparis21 7 months ago
This man is confusing...
UliponNiCristo 7 months ago
Trying to make out who 'won' with a tiny snippet of an interview that is handily cut off by music? Fail. Perhaps a better question would have been "Who will be *here* *then* at the recreation of all things (New Earth, New Jerusalem etc.)
mikeyjnz 8 months ago
John MacArthur should have done this Doug was asking to be put away, Todd made very hard work out of putting this heretic away he seemed ill-prepared
jmanexpress 10 months ago
He looks to the created, Socrates and Plato, to explain the Creator!?!?!?
AcaiBunch 10 months ago
Poor Todd is going to get that view of hell- up close and personal!! Poor Todd!! LOL!!
rickw1100 10 months ago
this Doug guy needs to watch what hes saying lol hes gonna be judged hard core by all mighty GOD!!!
ghosthunter5656 10 months ago
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels… And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:41, 46) Seems pretty clear to me.
DKrauter 10 months ago
How hard is it to answer a question. If there is a heaven and hell who will be there? He will not answer because they believe that everyone will be there. There is no punishment. All we need to really worry about is our own walk with God. God will judge Doug on his misleading of his followers.
DKrauter 10 months ago
ole Dougie the heretic
kushisaac 11 months ago
Jesus said he goes to prepare a PLACE FOR US that WHERE(there is that word Doug does not like again) he is we may be also.
GodLovesUs100 11 months ago
there is not a drop of evidence that hell is eternal and if you think so then by all mean send my a message and I will gladly refute your argument : )
Dwrancho144 1 year ago
(3.) & why does it say in the New Testament "every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" ? Why does it say that God created all things for his pleasure, are you saying it pleases our sovereign God to damn us to eternal torture? If God doesn't want us to go to hell, and is omnipotent, why wouldn't he just nip our existence in the bud? Why did early orthodox Christians accept what we now call "universalism"?
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
(2.) Gehenna was also the place where people partook in the gross sacrifice of children to the false god Molech. Every time Jesus speaks of punishment, it's directed to the Jews under the covenant. & tell me this, is hell exists, why isn't it present in the Old Testament? Sheol & Hades which means the grave are present, & why doesn't God mention in Genesis, that he also created a place of eternal torture?
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
(1.) Hell is the second death, the first death is the death of the body, where the soul awaits the day of judgement. The second death is the spiritual death, the real death. Jesus doesn't preach about Hell, Jesus preaches about "Gehenna" and it's directed towards the Jews under the Mosaic covenant with God. Gehenna was a real geographical place, the valley of Himmon, where a large fire always burned because people would discard their waste there....
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
A new heaven is symbolic in revelations for upper realms, such as political realm. Earth being the nature of man since we come from earth or lower realm under heaven. Thus GOD through Christ will make a new political system with new leaders(refering to the disciples and faithful followers, Abraham etc) to educate man of the things of GOD so that when all believe, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of GOD. Alot of people dont read revelation as a book of symbles. A catholic mistake
detailplus 1 year ago
@detailplus the fact that hell is a reoccuring belief in other religions does not prove it is not real. on the contrary it further supports that their must be a place of eternal punishment sense almost of religions on earth agree on this. the only problem is they get their info from demonic sources and we get it from God. i dont know how the battle in heaven is in any way relvelant to this topic. heaven is not symbolic it is literal. you are overallorgizing scripture when it need not be
FollowTheCloud 1 year ago
@detailplus the book of revelations is not a book of allegories. it uses metaphores figurative language and symbols to communicate concrete truths. Any scholar in escatology will tell you this. get any book or commentary on the book of revelations and you'll see it for yourself. Revelations 20:10 reads-And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever
FollowTheCloud 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud doug paggit is part of an unorthodox heretical stream of christianity that is not biblical & it has been rejected over the course of christian history by all bible scholars preachers and teachers. if u study church history u will see this to be an absolute fact,Doug paggit is the leader of a form of liberal christianity. It is the same liberalism of the past, in a new wrapping paper. but its always the same.Their is nothing new under the sun (ecclesiastes) history repeats itself
FollowTheCloud 1 year ago
3:07 "Unbelievable..."
"I agree it's unbelievable, sir. You're right."
PWND
localvandals 1 year ago
Doug sounds like someone who doesn't believe that the Bible is Spirit-inspired, so he sees it as internally inconsistent. Based on that belief, it makes sense that he would believe what he believes. That solidly places him in heretic country, without a doubt.
But Todd sounds like a clanging cymbal. There's absolutely no love in his argument, and actually pushes away people like me that don't know anything about him, despite the fact that I happen to agree with him. (1 Corinthians 13:1)
12centuries 1 year ago
Doug: "God will create a new Heaven and a new Earth."
Todd: "So, who's going to be there?"
Doug: "There?"
Ugh. Doug just got finished saying that God is going to create a new Heaven and a new Earth. Todd asks who's going to be in this new Heaven and new Earth and uses the word "there" to condense "new Heaven and new Earth" into an easier-to-say phrase. Doug then denies that he's talking about a "place", except he denies that he meant a "place". Uh...yeah. Right. Todd wins, hands down.
scarletsmith 1 year ago
Todd is WWWAAAYYYY too patient... idk what I'd do!!!
pari1angel 1 year ago
This guy is spouting eastern philosophy, even if he doesnt know it. Nothing he says can be supported by scripture.
Bmarch08 1 year ago
Doug Pagitt is pretending to have some sort of theological superiority, that he clearly only wishes he had, while he is perverting the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ with a bewitched delusion and another spirit and another gospel and another Jesus other than that given to us in the Bible. II Co 11, Gal. 1 & 3
TheWingwind 1 year ago
Wow, isn't amazing that nearly half of the people that watched part 1 of this video didn't find it interesting enough to watch part 2?
hmmmm... :)
HeReformedMe 1 year ago
After reading "A Christianity Worth Believing," I understand a lot more of what Doug Pagitt is trying to say here...but it still isn't seem biblical one bit. His constant mantra of, "You're a Platonic Dualist!" against Todd Friel is about as unfounded and nonsensical as it was in his book when he made the case Christianity took that turn without any evidence that it did.
HenryvKeiper 1 year ago
@HenryvKeiper *doesn't seem...
typo there.
HenryvKeiper 1 year ago
Pagitt is the one who is uncomfortable with the idea of "place" in the concepts of heaven, earth and hell and then accuses the host with embracing Platonic dualism. He's the one with a Platonic cosmology!
BreadandSham 1 year ago
Dough is unsure of Biblical doctrine..
Megalophyta 1 year ago
Thanks for sharing, Lane! Love all your video posts.
baumbe 1 year ago
I agree Todd Friel is dangerous. I can't say that I detected an ounce of humility in his conversation with Doug. Also the "early church" did not even have the New Testament so I'm not sure that Todd is correct in his understanding of how the "early church" interpreted Scripture.
rescueiscoming 1 year ago
@rescueiscoming the early church had the apostles and their writings-doug is wrong-read the Bible-there is a Heaven and hell-unbelievers WILL go to hell-those who have heard of Jesus and reject His saving Grace will go to hell
jstan442 1 year ago
Fundamentalists are delusional!
SkepticalBliss 1 year ago
Doug pagitt makes no logical sense whatsoever
marushamomma 1 year ago
the point of balance here is that some religious bigots are so obsessed with hell as a means of terrorizing people into becoming religious, that if it did notexist they would have had to invent it.
for this kind of fanatic has nothing but fear of hell.
hell is real, but focussing on it, as i have heard hell fire preachers do, is heresy
Strefanash 1 year ago
perhaps the question should have been not WHERE will God send his enemies, but WHAT will he DO to them.
pagitt is hung up on the idea of places, so dont ask him about places.
what will God DO to unrepentant unbelievers
Strefanash 1 year ago
pagitt avoids the question. he is a fool. The Bible is absolutely clear. hell is real., pagitt does not like what the bible says so twists it.
his playing with dualistic platonism is simply dishonest
there is no disputing this
Strefanash 1 year ago
Doug'S "MYSTICAL" stance on everything is ludicrous. It is man's wisdom at best, based on an occult experienced worldview of the universe and that man (he/Doug) is the center of all things, versus Jesus Christ and His Word.
dloper1000 1 year ago
Having a conversation with an emergent, and actually defining ANYTHING is like trying to nail jello to a wall.
benhuey 1 year ago
Yes Pagitt is in doubt and denial and seems to teaching doubt and denial to his congregation BUT Friel comes across as a condescending, smarmy dork. We MUST interact with reason, intelligence and fairness. If the goal is to expose and correct, then surely there are better ways to phrase the questions rather than be condescending and patronizing. Stop snide communication and lack of real dialogue and talk to each other.
LatinSkinz 1 year ago
wow!! Todd Friel is super obsessed with the "good Buddhist"
This guy (todd) is a crappy philosopher.
The tenets of his philosophical understanding of the scriptures is a stark distinction between "us" and "them", and its no wonder the world hates Christians, the thought that we go around saying that "we are saved" and "good buddhists (and other un-christian groups) are not saved and will go to hell"
I can't believe this is even considered media!!!
I am thoroughly disappointed!
jimiswatching 1 year ago
Pragitt never had anyone ask him what he actually believes: he wasn't able to get away with his answers like he does with his followers/members.
Creationcreed 1 year ago
The fear of the hereafter; the fear of being tortured in some hellhole of eternal fire, the fear of the clergy and the authority of the Church, this hideous, hideous fear, is the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is in fact, the money machine that keeps the wealth flowing into the Christian coffers).
GodAllInAll1 1 year ago
wow! pagitt is an idiot
CrystalIrismusic 1 year ago
pagett is a circumventing satanic demon to reconstitute concepts. that is pure insane lunacy. you pagett are a filthy game playing word perverting fool that obviously hates clear straight truth. because there is no truth in you or your father known as slew foot.
zobcity01 1 year ago
Doug Pagitt clearly won this debate. No contest whatsoever.
SteelersSuckBig 1 year ago
@SteelersSuckBig Why?
LaneCh 1 year ago
@LaneCh I agree. How did Doug win this? Doug just butchered the Bible.
TonberryKitchenKnife 1 year ago
@LaneCh I know this is old Lane, but he never answerd your question of, "why" did he?
HeReformedMe 1 year ago
@LaneCh The way Todd Friel deals with those who disagree with him is fundamentally unChristian and unreasonable. He just sounds like one of those shock jocks who are uninformed and graceless. He never engaged with Doug Pagitt. He only had dogmatic slogans to say. His tone is always sarcastic.. he's ridiculous really. The Reformed Christians in the US are some of the most hypocritical ppl you'll ever see.
brendos444 8 months ago
@LaneCh bc you just talked over him the whole time and put words in his mouth. You used verses that supported his belief
fdparis21 7 months ago
Pagitt is the one who is uncomfortable with the idea of "place" in the concepts of heaven, earth and hell and then accuses the host with embracing Platonic dualism. He's the one with a Platonic cosmology!
BreadandSham 1 year ago
@SteelersSuckBig Yes, do tell why?
Bmarch08 1 year ago
@SteelersSuckBig ...you're being sarcastic right?
TheArcaneMystery 1 year ago
@TheArcaneMystery i sure hope he is...
pari1angel 1 year ago
@SteelersSuckBig doubt it.
TheBraxton61 1 year ago
@SteelersSuckBig when he refused to define anything at all or when todd kept pointing at what Jesus said?
anonazero 11 months ago
@SteelersSuckBig : Really? REALLY? Haha. Ok.
MrSB1274 11 months ago
@SteelersSuckBig Take a look at Revelation 20:15 and Revelation 21:27 and then read both chapters in their entirety and I am sure you will see that Mr. Pagitt looses the debate with the Bible.
pastormarkm 8 months ago
@SteelersSuckBig If you consider being a satanic master of word twisting and theology avoidance winning.
1111UltraViolet1111 7 months ago
How in the world he won??? Doug is very confusing...
UliponNiCristo 7 months ago
@SteelersSuckBig DOUG PAGGIT ONLY WON IF YOURE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE TOPIC,,,HES A SNAKE,,,A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING,,,ONLY A LIAR OR A TYRANT TWISTS THE PLAIN MEANING OF WORDS,,,WORDS TO LIVE BY,,,GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THAT
candiceevans1 5 months ago
@SteelersSuckBig I agree SteelersSuckbig
poetaredimido 4 months ago
This is why the EC is so very scarry. When asked specific questions, he would not give a specific answer. The EC is not a Christian church. Can't be. The denouncing of hell and heaven and all come to salvation through Christ. Everyone, sinners, budhists, muslims etc. I have been searching for an answer. My mind is made up. This is sad. They are moving away from truth. He is heritical in his doctrine. He needs to denounced & turned over to satan for a season. Pray for his salvation
4858mf 1 year ago
Funny they believe in Luther when Luther was devoted the Virgin Mary but Tod Friel. And the early church father believed Mary was the Mother of God not in the manner how Protestants say Mother of Christ to separate Mary's true role as Mother of the one true God and called her Virgin through out her life.
syg33142 2 years ago
Christians, by faith in Jesus, will be in the first resurrection, and those who have not believed will fall into judgment at the end of the 1,000 year millenium. There is a time element after this 1,000 year period where Satan is let loose for a season (Isaiah refers to a time when the infant of days will live to be a 100 years old, and if being a sinner, he is cursed. Could this be the period of the Lord's major work along with the resurrected saints?
theresa4019684 2 years ago
wow thats gotta be frustrating
simplesamuel 2 years ago
this todd guy is way too patient with his guest.. he tried to give every possible opportunity for doug to explain where hes coming from, yet the guest just constantly repeats his nonsense over and over again...
AgentOrange04 2 years ago 2
i don't know a whole lot about Doug Pagitt bui I do know that the idea of hell is relativily new. It is not to be found in the OT and was not the accepted teaching of the early christian church, and that means the first 400-500 years.....it's scary to think outside the "religious box" that most christians live in but it is benificial. Peace to all!!
boomac62 2 years ago
what/where is Sheol in the OT?
anthonyschmidt 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Psalms 9:17 the wicked shall be turned into hell. Isaiah 66:24 gives the same description as Mark 9:43-44 . There are 30 ref to Hell in the OT. Duet 32:22 says it's burns. Sheol-Hebrew Hell -Greek Luke 16:19 Jesus talks about the 2 parts of Hades which after His death & resurrection the Abraham's bossom or paradise side was done away with because he led the OT saints out of there Matt 27:52 & Eph 4:8-10. As Jonah 2:2 Jesus was in the belly of the earth psalm 16:10 Acts 2:27
lanejeta 2 years ago
Peace be with ou Boom, regards to your post, you bring up an excellent point. Unfortunately there are those who would call you a heretic for even bringing this historic fact to life. I know this fictional place does not exist as fellow Christians would have you believe.
SwordofManticorE 2 years ago
Ballony. It was not fully developed as we read it in the scriptures, but was understood to exist from oral interpretation of the scriptures. Just like there is a resurrection which the sadducees opposed. But Jesus said "God said 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' God is not the God of the dead but of the living." And likewise Jesus said hell was a place "where the worm dieth not and the fires are not quenched."
hagiospaulos 2 years ago
Ok Doug is messed up!
justme228 2 years ago 4
Pagitt dances like a blind ballerina. He dances around the questions making a 20 minute conversation when all he has to really say is, "I an pretty much a universalist"
Pagitt denies so much Scripture; for example, the Lake of Fire, Paul listing people that will not inherit the Kingdom of God, Christ reffering to eternal (not internal) hell.
Pagitt could not argue directly because he knows enough about the Bible. He should have just been like the Mormons and say, "here is something new"
kappitts 2 years ago 4
This has been flagged as spam show
Doug Pagitt is the head pastor of Solomon's Porch (church) in South Minneapolis. His Emerging Church movement is definitely not based on the Bible but his own personal interpretation of what the Bible stands for, mixed with with a hotch-potch of secular philosophies.
He is very good at using confusion, bringing into the discussion Plato & Socrates, and then using divertionary tactics to prevent Todd Friel from getting his opinion on bible topics.
opsvideo2008 2 years ago 5
The OT has no understanding of a burning hell. Pre christian paganism had the idea of a burning hell with demons and torture. It's the antichrist who will be tortured for eternity, the others will be destroyed at the second death.
Pfsif 2 years ago
Psalms 9:17 the wicked shall be turned into hell. Isaiah 66:24 gives the same description as Mark 9:43-44 . There are 30 ref to Hell in the OT. Duet 32:22 says it's burns. Sheol-Hebrew Hell -Greek Luke 16:19 Jesus talks about the 2 parts of Hades which after His death & resurrection the Abraham's bossom or paradise side was done away with because he led the OT saints out of there Matt 27:52 & Eph 4:8-10. As Jonah 2:2 Jesus was in the belly of the earth psalm 16:10 Acts 2:27
lisagabel 2 years ago 2
The bible is a book of revelation. Neither Noah, Abraham or Moses saw things fully but only from the revealed perspective God allowed—they saw only glimpses. The prophets saw more, but they all longed to see what we now understand. The NT was the revelation of the OT. The Jews didn't see the gentile church age. Peter didn't understand God's purpose for the gentiles until he saw the Holy Spirit rest on the soldier's family. Jesus, the Son of God revealed Hell in it's fullness. I'll trust Him.
jasoncasper16 2 years ago
doug paggit was scared to give straight forward answers to straight forward questions becuase he is a heretic and he is teaching false doctrines and he doesnt want to be exposed.
todd friel serves God, doug paggit serves man in the name of God. you wont find doug paggits gospel in the bible. youll find it in mystic books and people of other religions trying to tell us what the bible says. you dont go to the unregenerate to interpret the bible. thats when everything goes wrong.
FollowTheCloud 2 years ago 7
@FollowTheCloud What were you listening to? That was a WIN? ha wow... I'm feel bad for you..
reillyjj 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud ABSOLUTELY MY BROTHER/SISTER. ABSOLUTELY! What Todd was speaking was correct. Jesus said "I go to prepare a PLACE..." Place! So it is a place. And there will be alot who will not enter it. He was upset because he's a liar and the truth is not in him. He's a eccumenical liar! And he is teaching new age lies! It's universalism and it's the WIDE GATE that Jesus warned us of.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud you will find hell in almost every pagan religion and in mystic books. Babylonians started hell back with nimrod. Jesus said that in the last days(not last hours) people will believe in fables(stories made up by man). Hell has always been a side road of the truth(distraction). Pls tell me what revelations is talking about when it describes a war in heaven against lucifer and Gabriel?? or is it Michael?? thankyou, I wait for your reply
detailplus 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud if you cant understand revelations how can you understand other scripture.The bible is a puzzle thats needs its pieces put together. Because you believe hell is for the devil and his angles.Well, where did the devil come from? how did he get there or is he there yet??hells origin started with babylon beliefs. Can you show me where the devil is mentioned in old testament please? im bringing up surounding topics because there the same piece of the puzzle.revelation is not litural.
detailplus 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud heaven is symbolic because, why would GOD destroy a litrual heaven which HE dwells in that is not polluted or corrupted??
detailplus 1 year ago
@FollowTheCloud I agree w/ you. Besides, he's not just a heretic, he's a coward, since he won't be clear about his heretical beliefs
dudufaria 5 months ago
Good for Doug Pagitt!
Christians so misunderstand that the judgment spoken of in the NT had to do with Old Covenant Israel which took place in AD70 and continues today... the Jews are still in torment and gnashing their teeth.
The New Heavens and Earth have to do with the New Covenant and Christ's presence within us. Jesus Himself said the Kingdom of God is within us!
Mainstream Christianity is described in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Don't get angry... pray about it and let the Lord show you.
Peace
ChristianNewsWatch 2 years ago
Doug Pagitt is a heretic. Period.
Chrystalwuzhere 2 years ago
I don't like this conversation. I don't like it how Doug won't just answer the question. Doug> Modern day pharisee
moonjp 2 years ago
This is how a Christian talks to another Christian?! Friel is not listening, nor does he show any respect. He's like a modern day Pharisee.
ryanvh1 2 years ago
The fact that Christians think they could enjoy Heaven knowing that good people (some of them friends and family!) are suffering eternal torture in Hell speaks volumes. It's unconscionable. The fact that they actually get excited about it makes them monsters. Christians don't weep for "the lost", they revel in imagining what they think is their fate. Revel in it!! Christianity is utterly bereft of compassion. What a horrible, ugly, wicked religion.
xTRUExHATEx 2 years ago
I agree. I totally understand where you're coming from. I hope you won't let Christians block your view of Christ. I'm a Christian and guys like Todd Friel enfuriate me! We're not all like him. If Jesus were to talk to people like Todd Friel I'm sure he'd talk to him like he spoke to the Pharisees in the Bible. I apologize for people like him.
ryanvh1 2 years ago
The guy called the Torah (the OT books) the koran?!?!? And he thinks Todd is confused??? Wow
LadyGreenEyes964 2 years ago
Friel is not nearly intelligent enough to understand scripture, and Pagitt is too intelligent to make his viewpoints understood by anyone but himself. I get where he's coming from, because the idea of "Hell" as we know it is a Western creation based on a Hellenestic understanding of soul/body relationships. The early church didn't believe in souls. Read your Bible and forget about Calvin, Luther, and especially Augustine. They didn't write scripture.
postlukecore 2 years ago
(Part Two)In Adam all died in Christ all are made alive.(1 Corinthians 15:22)
All references to punishment have to be seen through this and a hundred
others verses and (the context of the love of God which we cannot even comprehend)
- verses that speak the same language, including whole paragraphs and books (you would notice) if you have a heart of flesh and not of stone.--dont get lost due to the sin of pride (the us verses them mentality).
bernhardkirt 2 years ago
Why can't Doug just answer Todd's questions? The Word of God does not bow to Dante's Inferno.
RockSprites 2 years ago
Dougs right and Todds wrong!!!
nusphere 2 years ago
Listening to these gentlemen is tantamount to a Klansman and a Nazi debating over who is the real racist.
kevinneslund 2 years ago
Got to give Todd Friel credit being about to deal with such insanity. He'd be better off trying to reason with a dog than this guy.
elavaney 2 years ago 2
Dualistic platonic relationship with the cosmos? Huh!!!???
mdkbdshan 2 years ago
i dont know what dough believes but i'm sure that he is ignorant of the Scriptures.
yurama2001 2 years ago
The new heavens and the new earth... isn't a place? What's wrong with asking who'll be "there"? Socrates and Plato? huh?
muti7777 2 years ago 6
@muti7777 Yeah I'm not sure whats wrong with asking that either. I think Pagitt was trying to get him to ask who will experience it. All of Pagitt's answers were so vague.
streetlightcollusion 1 year ago
@muti7777 revelations is a book of symbles. Heaven doesnt mean GODs place of dwelling. Please fill free to ask a question. Revelations is not an easy book and needs alot of observing. Angles in revelations doesnt always mean angles either, same with clouds, waters, seas, sun, moon etc. thankyou
detailplus 1 year ago
???... what?! The stuff Doug says, wow.. i couldn't make this stuff up if tried.
TruthinTension 2 years ago 2
Friel takes it upon himself to set everyone's doctrine straight... not to mention he's completely twisting Pagitt's words (re-listen to the part about the Muslim funeral... what Pagitt says and what Friel says at the end). I don't get what the hell Pagitt is saying either... I'll be honest... both of these guys get on my freaking nerves.
JaboBabo 2 years ago
does this guy doug know what the bible says? it seems he has great difficulty in dealing with basic concepts...?
Does this guy know that romans is in the bible? I wonder?
loudmouthspeaker 2 years ago 6
Doug doesn't understand what a place is... I'd go crazy talking to this guy lol
1989dman 2 years ago
People. Please understand. Todd Friel is a radio personality/entertainer. The stations he works for have to generate revenue, or, they will shut down. He is for entertainment purposes. He would be summarily dismissed from an actual scholarly discussion among real Biblical scholars who concern themselves with archaeology, historical research, etc. Friel is a silly little entertainer, and, a bad one at that. A "never was" stand up comiedian. He is a coward.
kevinneslund 2 years ago
is this one actual radio or internet radio?
1989dman 2 years ago
He's an entertaining guy. He's funny and has a goofy attitude. The rest of what you said I have to disagree with. He street preaches the gospel to people he doesn't know. Which is terrifying if you haven't tried it. So i don't think he's a coward. You say he is a "never was" comedian, which is probably a good thing. He was a worldy comedian before he was saved and I'm glad his comedian career failed and he got saved so that he could spend his life glorifying God. Which he does daily. God bless
dirtysocks007 2 years ago
Yeah they're interested in all that, but you forgot one very very important thing that real scholars are, or should be, concerned about.... SCRIPTURE. and that's all Todd is concerned about. This guy has misinterpreted what scripture has said about judgment and repentance. So be cool man cuz Friel isn't requesting something unreasonable, just the word of GOD! Which you can find in your handy Bible. God bless bro!
henryflow52 2 years ago 3
hahaha, Todd Friel quotes people in the last 500 years... who were all greatly influenced by platonism. He doesn't quote ANY early Christian who came before Augustine, before Clement, before Platonism took over Christianity... when the Early Church was more similar to the New Testament Writers.... and NONE of the great orthodox guys were Platonic Dualists.
Arminian100 2 years ago
"He doesn't quote ANY early Christian who came before Augustine, before Clement, before Platonism took over Christianity"
Todd quoted Jesus... you didn't.
You sound as confused as Doug Pagitt. Go back to God's Word, my friend.
theheins 2 years ago
"quoting" Jesus, out of context, without exegesis, doesn't count. Todd didn't do ANY exegesis, he simply quoted 4 different things and put them together.
I'm not confused. Besides, I wasn't talking about the Scriptural references. Todd himself directly said "so these historic Christians wouldnt agree with me?" and then he quotes a bunch of guys after 1500, instead of the early church. My point is you can't appeal to tradition and only go back 500 years, there is 1500 years of tradition before.
Arminian100 2 years ago 3
Brilliant observation man!!! Keep it up!!!
henryflow52 2 years ago
Again sir, Friel is a Orthodox Reformed Protestant Christian, just like Martin Luther, John Edwards, and John Calvin, who were, you guessed it, late Christians. Their system of theology, which is based strictly, and I mean strictly, from scripture, is exactly that of which Friel practices. Hey man Im not tryin to get on your case either brother, I just love theological conversations that's all. Check those guys out that I mentioned btw. God Bless you!
henryflow52 2 years ago 6
the word "hell" appears 32 times in the old testament and 23 times in the new testament. 55 all up. The concept seems to originate in the bible, so to say differently would be...different I guess
BenPeckover 2 years ago
The word "hell" never came off the lips of Jesus or any of his disciples. Why? because it is an English word of Germanic etymology. Furthermore, any studied Biblical scholar can tell you the word was regrettably and wrongly used to mistranslate three very separate and distinct Hebrew and Greek words. This isn't hard to read and acknowledge. Simply study the truth of how translators (who are unfortunately UNINSPIRED) performed sloppy work in doing this. Historical fact.
kevinneslund 2 years ago
lol...Todd: "Are we here?..Am I real?..Do I exist???" Poor Todd...it must be hard talking to a guy who doesn't know the definition of a place!
TheSilentWarrior 2 years ago
I think this is part of the problem with the Protestant rejection of Purgatory. I ran across a writing of mine from a couple years ago when I was interested in all this "Emergent" stuff. I said that I don't presume to hope for universal Heaven, but universal Purgatory -- the "purifying fire" of 1Pe 1:7. Most people won't make it to Purgatory though, because they aren't turned towards God, they don't pursue God. Pagitt expresses this same hope by replacing Hell with Purgatory.
PilgrimToChrist 2 years ago
have you ever told lie ? have you ever looked at a woman-----sorry i forgot this only works when you threaten them with hell , hell was invented by catholics and enforced by Calvinism.
and no the early church fathers didnt teach it ,Paul who brought the gospel to us didnt mention it once.
see what about hell by sozo2 before you disagree
God bless
tonythatjesusloves 2 years ago
You're blind and refuse to see the truth. So when Jesus spoke about hell in the gospels it was a figment of our imagination? REPENT AND BELIEVE! You belong to your father the devil...
simone56 2 years ago
Jesus spoke about Gehenna , not hell if you have the time watch " what about hell 1 to 4 by sozo2
God bless
tonythatjesusloves 2 years ago
"REPENT AND BELIEVE! You belong to your father the devil... "
What is that? Because someone doesn't believe in hell, they're a child of the devil? Too bad that's not what ANY creed states. The creeds are the accepted doctrinal boundaries of the church universal. Sorry, can't call someone a child of the devil for not believing in hell. Also, Jesus didn't talk about hell. He never once used the word. Do some homework. He used the word Gehenna. Hell (hel) is equal to hades in greek. Not gehenna.
Arminian100 2 years ago
Well sir since we derive a lot of the English language, and the Bible, from Greek,and Hebrew and Latin, I didn't forget about them, it only make since that atleast one word from the language. And Christ talks plenty about punishment for our sins, as does Paul, even though he is not as important. Check out the book of John as well as Romans. Thats where Friel got a lot of his verses from. But hey dont take my word for it, check it out for yourself. God Bless my man!
henryflow52 2 years ago 3
lols this was great that doug guy is funny
pabloh619 2 years ago
Thank goodness i've never heard of this Doug Pagitt guy before, i hope never to come across him again. What doesn't he understand about the question? He can't understand the word "there" or "place"
Chriskg1989 2 years ago 2
this would be funny, if it wasn't so... ridiculous
LoveStruckTonight 2 years ago 2
"Your problem is that you are believing in a false gospel which is supported by mistranslated Bibles and scriptures."
I don't suppose you'd happen to have a translation that was done properly, would you?
OneEyedJack1970 3 years ago 3
These Emergent guys are the tools being used to undermine Christians' faith and bring people into the one world religion. So much of what I've read by these Emergent folks is identical to New Age philosophies/beliefs.
brigitteyvette 3 years ago
I have heard very few blasphemies this large....wow.....
littleredbirdy 3 years ago
Todd is too simple minded for this conversation with Doug
DTDB1225 3 years ago
Well sir or ma'am explain Isiaiah 14:12-13...Heaven is a place!
Zonebone 3 years ago
ima Christian Universalist this guy Todd doesnt have a clue hes so wrapped up in Christian fundamentalism which maligns the character of God unbelievable
bob701z 3 years ago
Does the Bible malign the character of God? talking about hell and judgment and repentance?
jaykarroll 3 years ago 2
It would be nice to think that God would be merciful and save all people regardless of their religious faith, but the sad fact is that it ain't gonna happen...Jesus is very clear that there is a path that leads to DESTRUCTION...it is a broad path. many will go into it. Universalism is taught nowhere in the Bible. Was Jesus maligning the character of God when he said this? how about Matthew 25: 46? How do these verses, and many others, fit into the Universalist doctrine of salvation?
Soldier7of7Christ 3 years ago 2
Christian universalist is an oxymoron. Repent & Believe in the true saving Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in Scripture.
BonzaiJakab 3 years ago 3
Christian fundamentalism maligns the character of God?
Gal.1:8,9 But even if we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be ACCURSED. As we have said before, so now I say again, if ANYONE preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be ACCURSED.
Sorry bob701z, but the apostle Paul disagrees with you, and so emphatically so, that he said it twice. Tell me do you think Paul is maligning the character of God?
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
Your problem is that you are believing in a false gospel which is supported by mistranslated Bibles and scriptures. Historians who are honest will agree, that you believe in a manufactured religion not the true Gospel of Inclusion...sorry bro :(
bob701z 3 years ago
This dude is unbelievable.
brenden7 3 years ago 2
Pagitt has virtually no ability to communicate with ordinary people in western society.
mayartay 3 years ago 4
Ha ha! Exactly.
HenryvKeiper 3 years ago 3
This man Doug worships himself, he will learn one day he isn't God when he is cast into the lake of fire.
maxtube22 3 years ago 5
Holy Bible:
1 Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
maxtube22 3 years ago 2
This guy Pagitt is unbelievable. Just what on earth does he believe???????? And people follow this person?
Cookey77 3 years ago 4
Which seminary did Doug Pagitt go to?
They should seriously take that place down..
It was so sad to see Pagitt's ministry reveal itself as a misguided one.
I hope that they can emerge toward God some time soon.
Thanks for putting this video up, LaneCh.
This reminded me that we should really watch out for all misguided teachings.
chaznation 3 years ago
It is almost impossible to have a conversation with Pagitt...!
ExceptYeRepent 3 years ago 3
When you look at the people that Todd listed, many of them exsisted in the last 500 years. There are still 1,500 years of Church history before that. To simply cut out 1,500 years of teaching (for better or worse), is dangerous. When we develop our worldview, we look to find evidence to support our views. Whether Emergent, fundamental, Catholic or Orthodox.
rdwarmboe 3 years ago
Todd Friel is dangerous. He treats scripture with the same disregard for context and intention that other radio personalities treat the words of politicians. He does propoganda instead of theology and values self-proclaimed victory over truth. It is apalling.
JameSteve 3 years ago
"JameSteve is dangerous. He treats scripture with the same disregard for context and intention that other radio personalities treat the words of politicians. He does propaganda instead of theology and values self-proclaimed victory over truth. It is appalling."
Now if I were to assert that, would it have any merit whatsoever if I didn't back it up with anything?
LaneCh 3 years ago
emergent church equals 2 timothy 4:3-4
billiefan2000 3 years ago
Todd Friel is a challemging but Bible believing Christian who suts through the nonsense that deceved apostates put up to blur the truth- Well done Todd
pianohbc 3 years ago
Todd Friel is not a christian. I don't think most Fundies really are. They are a lot more Gnostic than Christian. They think that if you believe or "know" the right doctrine, or right things, then you get to go to heaven. That is not what "saved by faith" means at all. So....
tool2scream05 3 years ago
Does one have to believe that Jesus Christ is literally risen from the dead flesh and blood to be saved?
LaneCh 3 years ago
What is your definition for a "fundie" Someone who is a Bible believing Christian who believes in the literal Bible? Instead of twisting with new age words what it syas? Pagitt forgets Jesus was in Hell and speaks the most about it- Gnashing of teeth and weeping? not in the new world- Hell is real
pianohbc 3 years ago
theres no secret knowledge my friend, god is light he has revealed to us everything we need to know about him. and there is no private interpretation of scripture.
fishboi87 3 years ago
Sorry - this conversation should have been interesting and clear. I think that part of the reason it was unclear is because the interviewer used a strategy of cornering the interviewee with closed ended questions. The interviewer took for granted that the categories used to articulate his own perspective is sufficient to articulate the difference between his perspective and the perspective of others. Consequently, the perspective of the interviewee is unclear.
dpaszak 3 years ago
Do you believe in close ended questions?
LaneCh 3 years ago
Interesting question. I see nothing wrong with close ended questions except when used to corner when cornering is not conducive to understanding where someone is coming from. I don't think the listeners had a clear understanding of where the interviewee is coming from. I also don't think the interviewee had a clear idea of where the interviewer is coming from. Why could not the interviewer facilitate a more fruitful dialog where at the end everyone understands each other's perspective?
dpaszak 3 years ago
I see. A little background info might help: Pagitt is part of the emerging church, and him and his group have been putting out things like this for the last few years. Friel knew where he was coming from which is why he was so blunt, and Pagitt was clear about it, too. (cont...)
LaneCh 3 years ago