Watch clips of "The Atomic States of America"; a new documentary released in January 2012 at the Sundance Film Festival. See Flash Transcrip @ democracynow,org/2012/1/24/the_atomic_states_of_america_exploring
P.S. Decades before Fukushima reactors began spewing radioisotopes, Brookhaven's Graphite Research Reactor secretly blanketed Suffolk County, NY with similar fallout from 1952 & 1957 when 29 uranium fuel rods exploded!
@bnsnid Ever check the vertical copper-drains in a 100-year old house? You may be eating too many beans? I know more cold water is used in a house; GFX only extracts the heat from hot & tepid drain water before it reaches the sewer pipe.
@gfxinventor im a plumber and ive seen copper drains in a 50 year old house, never in a 100 year old house. It usally wont last that long, it turns paper thin you can stick your finger right through it. Thats why its very rare to see someone putting it in a new building and i have never seen anyone put copper drains in a new house around here. Its also very expensive and not worth the cost. Thats what im mean when i say its not practical.
@bnsnid There are thousands of all-copper GFX's and GFX-knockoffs installed worldwide. We can make their drains out of thin-wall stainless, but not one customer asked for this.
@bnsnid Why not both? A GFX can increase the capacity of solar (photon) water heaters. By reducing the size of their photon-collectors, a GFX could lower the overall cost in northern climates -- or reduce the amount of photon-energy dumped in hot climates like Hawaii.
@gfxinventor it is an interesting idea, still not sure its practical but i do like seeing different ideas. I do think stainless would be the better way to go. Conservation and heat recovery is were the future of plumbing is going. thanks for the post.
If water has been in the house for some time, ie sat in toiled systems etc it's temperature would have come close to that of room temperature, add to that shower water etc, this comes to be a good idea, if the cost of product & insulation is right.
It's a home buildable item. It's great that it's a coiled tube, but it could be concentric tubes, metal is good, plastic would work ..... and lag the ' waste ' water to kept it as hot as possible prior to this point.
@magna59 Any vented, double-wall heat exchanger will work if it can pass sewage. The first GFX was made in 1980 with concentric tubes, but it's efficiency was much lower than the coil & tube design and couldn't be certified for use with potable water because it had only a single wall. The outer tube was plastic and inner tube copper DWV; cheap but unsafe like some modern Canadian knockoffs not certified for use for drinking water.
The problem is that the more complicated the system, the more that can go wrong. We need to put our efforts into something much simpler than collecting warm, grey water. If you use the same money, you can heat your water for FREE (or at least augment it) with a passive solar collector using thermosiphoning and then you won't have to worry about waste heat.
@gfxinventor Should the exterior of this unit not be lagged to stop heat losses in a cold basement as all drain lines are not adjacent to a cosy warm boiler...
@gamebent : It's cold water going into the water heater ANYWAY.....so there's no loss if that happens, but there's a gain if there's hot water in the drain. The idea is that if the water is flowing in this system, then it is heading toward the water heater....if it's doing that, then SOMEONE in the house has the hot water on....and that water is assumed to be going down the drain somewhere.
@davisjt1977 RMI's Home Energy Brief #5 is for residential applications and illustrates how a GFX can improve the performance of all types of residential water heaters -- even solar. It's opened by this link on the GFX Home page: "Rocky Mountain Institute’s Home Energy Brief #5 "Water Heating" (2004)".
@Darthreloy Hundreds of GFX's are operating in Army Barracks, as indicated in the letter to President Obama linked to the GFX Home Page. If you can prove GFX is a "SCAM", you should write him and ask for a tax refund if you pay US taxes.
@gfxinventor I can see it in a barracks, but a residence? Unless everyone in the house takes a shower one right after another, there is little to no savings. I have seen many so-called energy savers in mechanical rooms that have been unhooked because they are more trouble or more expensive than originally thought. Spend better by installing a high efficiency WH or boiler, insulate, seal up doors and windows, these will serve a homeowner better. Bob Villa is a retard anyway.
This is a simple heat exchanger, it works. It doesn't create hot water, it simply reduces the demand on the hot water heater by slightly warming the incoming ground water using the heat energy in the outgoing drain water. It works as advertised and those who say otherwise are ignorant to the laws of thermodynamics.
What IS ridiculous is the price of these units! The guy in Bob's video claims the cost is "about $175". Go to GFX's site and they're charging $680 for that unit, with warnings of
@superspeeder When the Bob Vila movie was filmed, the S3-60 shown used $60 worth of copper. Today the coil alone costs over $200 bucks if we buy 700-foot rolls. America mandates the use of expensive NSF-61 copper. Canadians can use any copper because they don't have an NSF-61 standard -- which most plumbers never heard of anyway. Neither did Home Depot or Loew's; for cheap, toxic copper boosts their profit margins.
@gfxinventor Materials went from $60 to ~$260 ($200 coil plus 3" pipe) up $200 so price goes up $535? Assuming your cost was $120 (materials $60 + $60 Labor). Now your material costs are $260; add in labor of $70 (inflation) and your cost is $330. This means your profit per unit is now $380, up from about $60. Nice trick! Nobody can afford new ideas if the cost is prohibitive. If you gouge someone will import these from China and sell them for 1/2 your price. GFX will be history, patents or not.
@superspeeder I wonder if this "technology" receives govt funding, as in a tax credit. If yes, therein lies your answer. People bilking the govt while whining the govt uses too much money. There should be NO tax credit for "green" systems. Why should I pay for someone else's choice of water heater? Tax credits mask the TRUE cost of these systems...the only way they get ANY ROI is with tax credits, ie. debt-based funding. Like "green" solutions? Good! pay for them yourself!
@superspeeder one point , it will be more efficent if the system is put horizontally ? so hte drain water doesn't go out so quickly and give nmore heat to the system ?
@al595 Exactly what I was thinking, but looking at this idea, although it looks like a good idea, really it doesn't look efficient enough to make any different. There's better ways to recover heat from showers.
You did and I quote! "Patented schemes like yours". Schemes being the key word here! Not idea, plans or even schematics but SCHEMES! Let' talk fact's! The only time this works is when a large volume of hot water is being used! Fact; The heater is still working to heat the water. Fact; Heat exchangers can/do work in reverse! If hot water is in the supply line it will be cooled when cold water is used(the toilet is flushed!). Which kinda defeats the purpose of installing it in the frist place!
@MrJackal64 How does "schemes" translate to "scammer"? Fact 1: is correct, a pasive GFX works best when "a large volume of hot water is being used" -- like during a shower. But an active GFX-Star system work whenever its Delta-T controller detects hot wastewater entering a GFX -- just the way a solar water is activated after the Sun rises. Fact 2 is also correct, but a GFX makes the heater work less. Fact 3 is also correct, wastewater is cooled before it enters the sewer.
@gfxinventor His explanation is kinda goofy right. Fact, fact, hahaha. A large volume wont due anyone any good. A normal amount for a long period of time is more like it. Then there is the flushing the toilet thing, god damn dumb. At the most a flushing toilet would lower the heat recovery for 30 seconds or so. I can see that it does work, it's just not worth it.
Ok I see! Now I'm the scammer because your trying to sell something that is designed for commercial use (place's that use large amounts of hot water for example a car wash!) to the residental consumer! And by the way meteoritenow! The heat exchanger has been around for quite a while, in fact the boiler in the video works with a heat exchanger! To be perfectly clear! What I'm saying is that for a single family home this is a waste of time, effort, money. A solar water heater would work better!
@MrJackal64 Who called you a "scammer"? Your conclusion my invention "is a waste of time, effort, money" is erroneous. It was developed and evaluated by DOE consultants for residential use because this application will save the most energy. Visit gfxtechnology. com/NEU-Solar. pdf to verify a GFX increases a solar water heater's performance & capacity, according to measurements by Northeast Utilities on an existing solar house taken from 11/17/96 to 3/30/97. The combination works "better".
It is a great new idea to gain the energy otherwise lost. It should have a mini water heater jacket encasing the GFX and insulation on the feed line from the GFX to the water heater. Anyone who makes a negative comment on the GFX is a fool and does not know how things actually function and should keep there comments off here because you will mislead others with your wrong opinion.
@meteoritenow Thank you. Insulation is needed only if a GFX is to be mounted in an area that's colder than the cold water supply and/or in humid basements to prevent condensation. We used to ship GFX's with a thin-wall PVC jacket to prevent condensation, but PVC is not allowed in many commercial applications, so we stopped.
I'm affraid I do know and understand that the average person showers for 15-20 minutes. Inorder for this to be truly effective/efficent you would have to put the coils inside an insulated catch tank before release into the sewer pipe or at the very least run it horizontal with a restrictor to slow the flow of the gray water which in turn would more than likely cause a problem with clogging! I'm sure it works great if someone wants to come out if the shower looking like a lobster.
@MrJackal64 Patented schemes like yours were cited by the USPTO examiner that first rejected my patent application. All but one fell victim to fouling. It received the DOE/OERI Grant before mine, but couldn't pass plumbing codes mandating vented, double construction to prevent drinking water contamination. Unlike a GFX, it could not pass sewage. Visit gfxtechnologycom to see graphs based on complex math models first developed by a DOE consultant - then try to make or by one like you describe.
I have to agree with Maxwinner69! Total waste of copper that could have been better used in a solar water heater which would be a much more efficent way to preheat water going into the boiler.
@MrJackal64 That's because you don't understand water heating. RMI's Home Energy Brief #5 shows how a GFX will improve the performance of any solar water heater; for a fraction of its cost. This has been third-party verified in the Utility Field Test linked to our Website. Same goes for an expensive HPWH, according to another Utility Study.
such a stupid Idea... small scale, your savings would be nothing! I build boilers, Nuke, steam gens and huge industrial boilers.. There is nothing to help transfer the heat from the 2 metals. that's like taking a luke warm pipe and trying to heat the other by simply touching them against one another. Let alone you have to heat the base metal prior to the cold water inside. Trust me waste of copper your best insulating all your hot water lines. not with this cheap crap.
@Maxwinner69 FYI: GFX NOW SPECIFIED AS ONE OF 14 LEED MEASURES FOR ARMY BARRACKS. In 2009, the US Army Corps of Engineers issued a revised building code mandating “GFX shall be provided on all shower drains and Laundry drains.” To date, hundreds have been installed -- or are scheduled to be installed -- in Fort Lewis, Fort Lee, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning and others.
what would be even better than that would be a totally dedicated heat exchanger. film transfer of energy is extremely inefficient. on top of this it should be applied on horizontal pipes with some kind of stopper to temorarily hold the water in place so more transfer of energy can occur..the incoming water should be directed to the hot water heater to reduce the load on the unit not to add to it afterwards when this minor raise in temperature is mute in reducing the electric load.
@circusboy90210 FYI: GFX NOW SPECIFIED AS ONE OF 14 LEED MEASURES FOR ARMY BARRACKS. In 2009, the US Army Corps of Engineers issued a revised building code mandating “GFX shall be provided on all shower drains and Laundry drains.” To date, hundreds have been installed -- or are scheduled to be installed -- in Fort Lewis, Fort Lee, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning and others.
@circusboy90210 You missed the point; a GFX has to pass sewage and handle drinking water, so a conventional heat exchanger will not be approved for this application. If you have a way to make it "alot more" efficient, I'd love to see it.
@gfxinventor no I did not miss the point like I said if you put this in a horizontal pipe their will be more time for this volume of water . install it on the pipes that handle only hot water, commodes do not tranfer any usefull amount of heat & have solids to clog a conventional heat exchanger. in a heat exchanger there is not exchange of pathogens & copper kills microbes. eliminate the fecal matter problem ie the commode & you will have more water that is only hot to transfer energy.
@circusboy90210 In that case you don't understand how a GFX works because its efficiency drops dramatically when its drainpipe is filled with water. It will also foul. Not only do falling films have a much higher heat transfer coefficient, they are fast moving and keep the walls clean.
@gfxinventor if this is the case then the idea is mute again (I want to believe0 however the amount of water that clings to the walls of the pipe does not have enough volume to transfer very much heat. I would make an industry installing these . really though the really big applications are more likely to produce any real amount of transfer.(like places that use larrge amounts of energy. the amount of copper required might set off the small amount of energy saved in a home.
@circusboy90210 The amount of water that clings to the walls of a GFX's drainpipe has exactly enough volume to transfer the maximum amount of heat because the film thickness and velocity automatically adjust. A passive GFX system has little storage, so it works best for showers and other continuous-flow applications like commercial, flight-type dishwashers. GFX's have been used in active systems similar to solar water heaters using Delta-T controllers, pumps & storage tanks.
@circusboy90210 Visit the GFX website and click on the graph labeled "%-EFF vs. GPM". Our equations are trade secrets to make life difficult for IP-thieves that pass off my invention as Power-Pipe, ECO-GFX, GFX-Lite, etc. Their protector, NRCAN, fabricated sets of equations based on inconsistent measurements. If you like, send me an email with your contact information/credentials and I'll send you their reports - with NRCAN math models predicting over 100% efficiency at low flow rates.
@gfxinventor trade secrets???? this is not rocket science , a heat exchanger is not a complicated endeavore. your not the first person to think of this idea. I"M sure the romans had something like this.
@circusboy90210 I know it's not "rocket science" since I used to help design rockets & and nuclear reactors, which use lot of heat exchangers. Since you think it's not a complicated endeavor, may I suggest that you buy a GFX and develop your own equations.
@gfxinventor reverse engineering can be achieved through photographs. I"m not interested in wasting time in something that is not effective on a small scale. I wish you the best of luc with that though .
@dodgedart74 Solar water heaters can't be used for all Army Barracks, which is why they are not specified as one of 14 LEED measures. To see the complete list visit the GFX Website and click on this link 14 Lead Measures & U.S. Army Barracks Specification
@angryadrien you must be a tweaker, cause everyone here is interested in the technology in this system, not the value of copper in it.. anyways add time to your equation and yes, it does eventually pay itself off,
@angryadrien yes one of the reasons other than volume of heat per income volume/temperature. cannot really see these working on anything less than an apartment building or high flow.
an analogy of this would be why the sparks shed from a sparkler don't burn you even though they are 7000 degrees. they don't have enough mass. the mass of water goinng down a drain is probably not enough to make any real dent in the incoming waters temp.
Not true if the air surrounding a GFX's coil is above that of incoming cold water. This is usually the case, so insulating the coil is unnecessary, unless condensation is a problem.
All of the installatioins shown for this unit have been uninsulated. You have to insulate the coil and the pipe that goes to the water heater. Not insulating this is a mistake.
this is just wrong . the cost of makeing it , installing it , replaceing it when it springs a leak . . for what a little bit of heat ? .be real people , want to save ? turn your water heater down a little . if everybody did this we would save a lot .and not have to make and install new products.... DONT BE BRAINWASHED you dont need to buy something ,to do the right thing !
42 guitars - when you're not showering (or running the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc.), you're not using energy to heat water anyway. You can only save energy you would otherwise be using!
Watch clips of "The Atomic States of America"; a new documentary released in January 2012 at the Sundance Film Festival. See Flash Transcrip @ democracynow,org/2012/1/24/the_atomic_states_of_america_exploring
P.S. Decades before Fukushima reactors began spewing radioisotopes, Brookhaven's Graphite Research Reactor secretly blanketed Suffolk County, NY with similar fallout from 1952 & 1957 when 29 uranium fuel rods exploded!
gfxinventor 3 weeks ago
sewer gas eats through copper drain lines, and more coldwater is used in a house hold than hot. this isnt a practical idea.
bnsnid 3 weeks ago
@bnsnid Ever check the vertical copper-drains in a 100-year old house? You may be eating too many beans? I know more cold water is used in a house; GFX only extracts the heat from hot & tepid drain water before it reaches the sewer pipe.
gfxinventor 3 weeks ago
@gfxinventor im a plumber and ive seen copper drains in a 50 year old house, never in a 100 year old house. It usally wont last that long, it turns paper thin you can stick your finger right through it. Thats why its very rare to see someone putting it in a new building and i have never seen anyone put copper drains in a new house around here. Its also very expensive and not worth the cost. Thats what im mean when i say its not practical.
bnsnid 3 weeks ago
@bnsnid There are thousands of all-copper GFX's and GFX-knockoffs installed worldwide. We can make their drains out of thin-wall stainless, but not one customer asked for this.
gfxinventor 2 weeks ago
@gfxinventor you would be better off using a solar waterheater as a secondary.
bnsnid 3 weeks ago
@bnsnid Why not both? A GFX can increase the capacity of solar (photon) water heaters. By reducing the size of their photon-collectors, a GFX could lower the overall cost in northern climates -- or reduce the amount of photon-energy dumped in hot climates like Hawaii.
gfxinventor 2 weeks ago
@gfxinventor it is an interesting idea, still not sure its practical but i do like seeing different ideas. I do think stainless would be the better way to go. Conservation and heat recovery is were the future of plumbing is going. thanks for the post.
bnsnid 2 weeks ago
I take cold showers.
dinnerandashow 4 weeks ago
@dinnerandashow Do your girlfriends?
gfxinventor 3 weeks ago
@gfxinventor
I like her clean.
dinnerandashow 2 weeks ago
If water has been in the house for some time, ie sat in toiled systems etc it's temperature would have come close to that of room temperature, add to that shower water etc, this comes to be a good idea, if the cost of product & insulation is right.
magna59 2 months ago
It's a home buildable item. It's great that it's a coiled tube, but it could be concentric tubes, metal is good, plastic would work ..... and lag the ' waste ' water to kept it as hot as possible prior to this point.
magna59 2 months ago
@magna59 Any vented, double-wall heat exchanger will work if it can pass sewage. The first GFX was made in 1980 with concentric tubes, but it's efficiency was much lower than the coil & tube design and couldn't be certified for use with potable water because it had only a single wall. The outer tube was plastic and inner tube copper DWV; cheap but unsafe like some modern Canadian knockoffs not certified for use for drinking water.
gfxinventor 2 months ago
The problem is that the more complicated the system, the more that can go wrong. We need to put our efforts into something much simpler than collecting warm, grey water. If you use the same money, you can heat your water for FREE (or at least augment it) with a passive solar collector using thermosiphoning and then you won't have to worry about waste heat.
ZehaasSram 2 months ago
So what happen when cold water goes down the pipe? Does it cool off the heat you collected from the hot water?
gamebent 3 months ago
@gamebent Yes, so tell the kids not to flush the toilet someone is taking a shower.
gfxinventor 3 months ago 2
@gfxinventor Should the exterior of this unit not be lagged to stop heat losses in a cold basement as all drain lines are not adjacent to a cosy warm boiler...
malachy1847 3 weeks ago
@gamebent : It's cold water going into the water heater ANYWAY.....so there's no loss if that happens, but there's a gain if there's hot water in the drain. The idea is that if the water is flowing in this system, then it is heading toward the water heater....if it's doing that, then SOMEONE in the house has the hot water on....and that water is assumed to be going down the drain somewhere.
sabriath 3 months ago
weareDEVO
notoriouslizw 4 months ago
The bottom line is: What is the return on investment? Depending on your climate it is 5 to 10 years.
davisjt1977 4 months ago
@davisjt1977 Payback depends on usage and can be less than a year in commercial, industrial and military applications.
gfxinventor 4 months ago
@davisjt1977 I am referring to single family residential.
davisjt1977 4 months ago
@davisjt1977 RMI's Home Energy Brief #5 is for residential applications and illustrates how a GFX can improve the performance of all types of residential water heaters -- even solar. It's opened by this link on the GFX Home page: "Rocky Mountain Institute’s Home Energy Brief #5 "Water Heating" (2004)".
gfxinventor 4 months ago
SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!
Darthreloy 5 months ago
@Darthreloy Hundreds of GFX's are operating in Army Barracks, as indicated in the letter to President Obama linked to the GFX Home Page. If you can prove GFX is a "SCAM", you should write him and ask for a tax refund if you pay US taxes.
gfxinventor 4 months ago
@gfxinventor I can see it in a barracks, but a residence? Unless everyone in the house takes a shower one right after another, there is little to no savings. I have seen many so-called energy savers in mechanical rooms that have been unhooked because they are more trouble or more expensive than originally thought. Spend better by installing a high efficiency WH or boiler, insulate, seal up doors and windows, these will serve a homeowner better. Bob Villa is a retard anyway.
Darthreloy 4 months ago
This is a simple heat exchanger, it works. It doesn't create hot water, it simply reduces the demand on the hot water heater by slightly warming the incoming ground water using the heat energy in the outgoing drain water. It works as advertised and those who say otherwise are ignorant to the laws of thermodynamics.
What IS ridiculous is the price of these units! The guy in Bob's video claims the cost is "about $175". Go to GFX's site and they're charging $680 for that unit, with warnings of
superspeeder 9 months ago
@superspeeder When the Bob Vila movie was filmed, the S3-60 shown used $60 worth of copper. Today the coil alone costs over $200 bucks if we buy 700-foot rolls. America mandates the use of expensive NSF-61 copper. Canadians can use any copper because they don't have an NSF-61 standard -- which most plumbers never heard of anyway. Neither did Home Depot or Loew's; for cheap, toxic copper boosts their profit margins.
gfxinventor 9 months ago
@gfxinventor Materials went from $60 to ~$260 ($200 coil plus 3" pipe) up $200 so price goes up $535? Assuming your cost was $120 (materials $60 + $60 Labor). Now your material costs are $260; add in labor of $70 (inflation) and your cost is $330. This means your profit per unit is now $380, up from about $60. Nice trick! Nobody can afford new ideas if the cost is prohibitive. If you gouge someone will import these from China and sell them for 1/2 your price. GFX will be history, patents or not.
superspeeder 8 months ago
@superspeeder I wonder if this "technology" receives govt funding, as in a tax credit. If yes, therein lies your answer. People bilking the govt while whining the govt uses too much money. There should be NO tax credit for "green" systems. Why should I pay for someone else's choice of water heater? Tax credits mask the TRUE cost of these systems...the only way they get ANY ROI is with tax credits, ie. debt-based funding. Like "green" solutions? Good! pay for them yourself!
kenfo0 8 months ago
@superspeeder one point , it will be more efficent if the system is put horizontally ? so hte drain water doesn't go out so quickly and give nmore heat to the system ?
al595 5 months ago
@al595 Exactly what I was thinking, but looking at this idea, although it looks like a good idea, really it doesn't look efficient enough to make any different. There's better ways to recover heat from showers.
Oldbmwr100rs 4 months ago
An endless hot shower with endless hot water? bahahahahahaha
fudgedogbannana 9 months ago
Who drinks tap water these days?
gfxinventor 9 months ago
@gfxinventor er....intelligent people?
kenfo0 8 months ago
Simply flush the toilet after taking a shower, like thousands of satisfied customers do.
gfxinventor 9 months ago
What about If I just want a nice cold glass of water to drink?
Alex1M6 9 months ago
@Alex1M6 I assume, if it's installed correctly, it only heats the water going into the water heater.
lrd9999 8 months ago
Date & Info @ gfxtechnology,com says otherwise.
gfxinventor 10 months ago
Idiotic...........The water in the vertical pipe would be present for mere seconds and would be mostly cold water
Will not work
9057979 10 months ago
You did and I quote! "Patented schemes like yours". Schemes being the key word here! Not idea, plans or even schematics but SCHEMES! Let' talk fact's! The only time this works is when a large volume of hot water is being used! Fact; The heater is still working to heat the water. Fact; Heat exchangers can/do work in reverse! If hot water is in the supply line it will be cooled when cold water is used(the toilet is flushed!). Which kinda defeats the purpose of installing it in the frist place!
MrJackal64 1 year ago
@MrJackal64 How does "schemes" translate to "scammer"? Fact 1: is correct, a pasive GFX works best when "a large volume of hot water is being used" -- like during a shower. But an active GFX-Star system work whenever its Delta-T controller detects hot wastewater entering a GFX -- just the way a solar water is activated after the Sun rises. Fact 2 is also correct, but a GFX makes the heater work less. Fact 3 is also correct, wastewater is cooled before it enters the sewer.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor His explanation is kinda goofy right. Fact, fact, hahaha. A large volume wont due anyone any good. A normal amount for a long period of time is more like it. Then there is the flushing the toilet thing, god damn dumb. At the most a flushing toilet would lower the heat recovery for 30 seconds or so. I can see that it does work, it's just not worth it.
Darthreloy 4 months ago
Ok I see! Now I'm the scammer because your trying to sell something that is designed for commercial use (place's that use large amounts of hot water for example a car wash!) to the residental consumer! And by the way meteoritenow! The heat exchanger has been around for quite a while, in fact the boiler in the video works with a heat exchanger! To be perfectly clear! What I'm saying is that for a single family home this is a waste of time, effort, money. A solar water heater would work better!
MrJackal64 1 year ago
@MrJackal64 Who called you a "scammer"? Your conclusion my invention "is a waste of time, effort, money" is erroneous. It was developed and evaluated by DOE consultants for residential use because this application will save the most energy. Visit gfxtechnology. com/NEU-Solar. pdf to verify a GFX increases a solar water heater's performance & capacity, according to measurements by Northeast Utilities on an existing solar house taken from 11/17/96 to 3/30/97. The combination works "better".
gfxinventor 1 year ago
It is a great new idea to gain the energy otherwise lost. It should have a mini water heater jacket encasing the GFX and insulation on the feed line from the GFX to the water heater. Anyone who makes a negative comment on the GFX is a fool and does not know how things actually function and should keep there comments off here because you will mislead others with your wrong opinion.
meteoritenow 1 year ago
@meteoritenow Thank you. Insulation is needed only if a GFX is to be mounted in an area that's colder than the cold water supply and/or in humid basements to prevent condensation. We used to ship GFX's with a thin-wall PVC jacket to prevent condensation, but PVC is not allowed in many commercial applications, so we stopped.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
I'm affraid I do know and understand that the average person showers for 15-20 minutes. Inorder for this to be truly effective/efficent you would have to put the coils inside an insulated catch tank before release into the sewer pipe or at the very least run it horizontal with a restrictor to slow the flow of the gray water which in turn would more than likely cause a problem with clogging! I'm sure it works great if someone wants to come out if the shower looking like a lobster.
MrJackal64 1 year ago
@MrJackal64 Patented schemes like yours were cited by the USPTO examiner that first rejected my patent application. All but one fell victim to fouling. It received the DOE/OERI Grant before mine, but couldn't pass plumbing codes mandating vented, double construction to prevent drinking water contamination. Unlike a GFX, it could not pass sewage. Visit gfxtechnologycom to see graphs based on complex math models first developed by a DOE consultant - then try to make or by one like you describe.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
I have to agree with Maxwinner69! Total waste of copper that could have been better used in a solar water heater which would be a much more efficent way to preheat water going into the boiler.
MrJackal64 1 year ago
@MrJackal64 That's because you don't understand water heating. RMI's Home Energy Brief #5 shows how a GFX will improve the performance of any solar water heater; for a fraction of its cost. This has been third-party verified in the Utility Field Test linked to our Website. Same goes for an expensive HPWH, according to another Utility Study.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
such a stupid Idea... small scale, your savings would be nothing! I build boilers, Nuke, steam gens and huge industrial boilers.. There is nothing to help transfer the heat from the 2 metals. that's like taking a luke warm pipe and trying to heat the other by simply touching them against one another. Let alone you have to heat the base metal prior to the cold water inside. Trust me waste of copper your best insulating all your hot water lines. not with this cheap crap.
Maxwinner69 1 year ago
@Maxwinner69 FYI: GFX NOW SPECIFIED AS ONE OF 14 LEED MEASURES FOR ARMY BARRACKS. In 2009, the US Army Corps of Engineers issued a revised building code mandating “GFX shall be provided on all shower drains and Laundry drains.” To date, hundreds have been installed -- or are scheduled to be installed -- in Fort Lewis, Fort Lee, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning and others.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
would it work for moonshine? condenser.
eyechubcunt 1 year ago
@eyechubcunt Sure. One farmer asked if he could also use it to pasteurize cider filled with debris. Two good applications for a GFX.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
what would be even better than that would be a totally dedicated heat exchanger. film transfer of energy is extremely inefficient. on top of this it should be applied on horizontal pipes with some kind of stopper to temorarily hold the water in place so more transfer of energy can occur..the incoming water should be directed to the hot water heater to reduce the load on the unit not to add to it afterwards when this minor raise in temperature is mute in reducing the electric load.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 FYI: GFX NOW SPECIFIED AS ONE OF 14 LEED MEASURES FOR ARMY BARRACKS. In 2009, the US Army Corps of Engineers issued a revised building code mandating “GFX shall be provided on all shower drains and Laundry drains.” To date, hundreds have been installed -- or are scheduled to be installed -- in Fort Lewis, Fort Lee, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning and others.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor this can be implemented alot better than it is. made alot more effecient which is the whole point.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 You missed the point; a GFX has to pass sewage and handle drinking water, so a conventional heat exchanger will not be approved for this application. If you have a way to make it "alot more" efficient, I'd love to see it.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor no I did not miss the point like I said if you put this in a horizontal pipe their will be more time for this volume of water . install it on the pipes that handle only hot water, commodes do not tranfer any usefull amount of heat & have solids to clog a conventional heat exchanger. in a heat exchanger there is not exchange of pathogens & copper kills microbes. eliminate the fecal matter problem ie the commode & you will have more water that is only hot to transfer energy.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 In that case you don't understand how a GFX works because its efficiency drops dramatically when its drainpipe is filled with water. It will also foul. Not only do falling films have a much higher heat transfer coefficient, they are fast moving and keep the walls clean.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor if this is the case then the idea is mute again (I want to believe0 however the amount of water that clings to the walls of the pipe does not have enough volume to transfer very much heat. I would make an industry installing these . really though the really big applications are more likely to produce any real amount of transfer.(like places that use larrge amounts of energy. the amount of copper required might set off the small amount of energy saved in a home.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 The amount of water that clings to the walls of a GFX's drainpipe has exactly enough volume to transfer the maximum amount of heat because the film thickness and velocity automatically adjust. A passive GFX system has little storage, so it works best for showers and other continuous-flow applications like commercial, flight-type dishwashers. GFX's have been used in active systems similar to solar water heaters using Delta-T controllers, pumps & storage tanks.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor show me the mathematics or I will beta test one if you pay me as an outside consultant to verify your claim.s
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 Visit the GFX website and click on the graph labeled "%-EFF vs. GPM". Our equations are trade secrets to make life difficult for IP-thieves that pass off my invention as Power-Pipe, ECO-GFX, GFX-Lite, etc. Their protector, NRCAN, fabricated sets of equations based on inconsistent measurements. If you like, send me an email with your contact information/credentials and I'll send you their reports - with NRCAN math models predicting over 100% efficiency at low flow rates.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor trade secrets???? this is not rocket science , a heat exchanger is not a complicated endeavore. your not the first person to think of this idea. I"M sure the romans had something like this.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 I know it's not "rocket science" since I used to help design rockets & and nuclear reactors, which use lot of heat exchangers. Since you think it's not a complicated endeavor, may I suggest that you buy a GFX and develop your own equations.
gfxinventor 1 year ago
@gfxinventor reverse engineering can be achieved through photographs. I"m not interested in wasting time in something that is not effective on a small scale. I wish you the best of luc with that though .
circusboy90210 1 year ago
solar water heaters ware more practical than this, but it is a good idea. but not THE idea.
dodgedart74 1 year ago
@dodgedart74 Solar water heaters can't be used for all Army Barracks, which is why they are not specified as one of 14 LEED measures. To see the complete list visit the GFX Website and click on this link 14 Lead Measures & U.S. Army Barracks Specification
gfxinventor 1 year ago
that amount of copper must have cost a fortune! Way beyond the value of the energy it saves.
angryadrien 2 years ago
@angryadrien you must be a tweaker, cause everyone here is interested in the technology in this system, not the value of copper in it.. anyways add time to your equation and yes, it does eventually pay itself off,
dodgedart74 1 year ago
@dodgedart74 what the heck is a tweaker and why would you call me that? don't be a jerk.
There are many other ways to achieve results, depending on your budget, available space and intent.
I have not attempted this method but if someone has, please comment about your results.
The area seems insufficient for enough heat transfer to make it a worthwhile project, but if you have numbers to back it up, please post.
I am interested in the technology but I am a skeptic on this one.
angryadrien 1 year ago
@angryadrien yes one of the reasons other than volume of heat per income volume/temperature. cannot really see these working on anything less than an apartment building or high flow.
an analogy of this would be why the sparks shed from a sparkler don't burn you even though they are 7000 degrees. they don't have enough mass. the mass of water goinng down a drain is probably not enough to make any real dent in the incoming waters temp.
circusboy90210 1 year ago
@circusboy90210 I agree. thanks.
angryadrien 1 year ago
Not true if the air surrounding a GFX's coil is above that of incoming cold water. This is usually the case, so insulating the coil is unnecessary, unless condensation is a problem.
gfxinventor 2 years ago
All of the installatioins shown for this unit have been uninsulated. You have to insulate the coil and the pipe that goes to the water heater. Not insulating this is a mistake.
STARFIRESOLAR 2 years ago
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this is just wrong . the cost of makeing it , installing it , replaceing it when it springs a leak . . for what a little bit of heat ? .be real people , want to save ? turn your water heater down a little . if everybody did this we would save a lot .and not have to make and install new products.... DONT BE BRAINWASHED you dont need to buy something ,to do the right thing !
CactusBobsWorld 2 years ago
Comment removed
CactusBobsWorld 2 years ago
wouldnt youhave to insulate every waste pipe in the house....why dont they makea water wheel inside the tubeand collect the energy that way?
crob227 2 years ago
it all sounds good but what about when your not showering its great if your showering all day long !
42guitars 3 years ago
42 guitars - when you're not showering (or running the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc.), you're not using energy to heat water anyway. You can only save energy you would otherwise be using!
peduncle2 2 years ago