thoughts on omniscience (and determinism vs free will)

[gilbert4321]

I believe that God's way of thinking is beyond our understanding and even if he told us it wouldn't make any sense because we are not capable of understanding.

[CloverfieldMonster95]

@Frettsy what about Molinism?

[JeevesMorris1]

Yay for believing in "predestination"

[daveme7]

While listening-I will give advice someone gavetome one day-do not read books for Calvinism against Arminianism or for Arminianism against Calvinism and only study the scriptures begging God to teach you the truth.

[thesirdanny]

One of the biggest things for me in understanding this was learning about Quantum Physics AND pairing that with my reading of Leibniz's work.

Learning the meanings of the words by which we qualify someone with the title of God is incredibly helpful too. In such research you will no doubt come across references to Leibniz's work due to the depth and wide reaching nature of it.

[Frettsy]

@thesirdanny I have not read any Leibniz - will have to check that out.

[ICarnagezI]

Who cares about predestination? God desires all to be saved. And if you love God then you try your best to help. Not tell people that there presdestined to hell. What is wrong with you people? Predestination is a arguement that no one can win.OnlyGODknows

Isaiah 55:8-9“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,”  declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[Frettsy]

@ICarnagezI ...wha? I didn't mention hell once. but now that you mention it, you're wrong. we are all by our sinful natures condemned to hell. only by God's grace and mercy are we saved from that rightful justice and punishment. and yes, we can know. by your argument, nobody can know anything; of course that's not the case. the Bible speaks specifically on this issue multiple times; it is up to us to interpret it in the best way we can.

[ICarnagezI]

@Frettsy Nobody can win this arguement. Cuz you say verse that talks about being chosen and I can say John 3:16 or any verse that says WHOEVER.

[Frettsy]

@ICarnagezI of course nobody can "win"... somebody is always going to have a differing opinion. that does not mean there's no merit in discussing it and trying to come to the truth. you may not find any value in it, but others who are perhaps more intellectually curious do.

[dfpolis]

You are assuming that God can change. If he could he would not be perfect because any change would make Him more or less perfect. God being omniscience means that God knows all reality, but to know what we choose does not mean we do not choose it. Rather God knows what we choose because we choose it. God is outside of time and so sees all time at once. God wills who will be saved freely, but not blindly. We do not merit salvation, but we can cooperate with it. Failure to do so is sin. Peace, DP

[Frettsy]

@dfpolis where am I assuming that God can change? in that He would learn of new events daily? I am not so sure that this implies that His countenance or personality would change, per se. we know that God knows all reality, however, future events are not yet reality, so He does not *necessarily* have to know them. also you note that "God is outside of time", which I too have believed, but do you have any Scriptural basis for this?

[dfpolis]

@Frettsy God is not a physical being, but an intentional being. Thus, any changes would be in what He knows or wills. What else could change in an intentional being, a pure mind? Future events are not yet part of the reality available to us now because our brains encode data from the past. That does not mean that the space-time continuum cannot be seen as a whole from outside of space-time, as we look at maps from outside the map's plane. “I the LORD do not change" Malachi 3:6

[Frettsy]

@dfpolis again I ask, is there any Scriptural basis for the idea that God is outside of time? I truly am interested in getting to the bottom of this. I'm not saying whether your assertions are right or wrong, because I believe it is possible; I am just seeking Biblical confirmation. cheers :)

[dfpolis]

@Frettsy Mal 3:6 shows God is unchanging, & so timeless. In Exod 3:14 & John 8:58 the nature of God is tense-less existence, "I AM". Also look at Genesis 1: Time, for the Hebrews living before clocks, was measured by the passage of day and night. In Gen 1 God creates before there is a day and night, acting outside of time. God gave us minds, and expects us to use the talents He gives us -- especially to understand the meaning of His word. Peace, Dennis

[Frettsy]

@dfpolis the most glaring contradiction I can see in that line of logic is this: if He created us with free will, then did He know everything we were going to do *before He created us*? in other words, if He created the closed system of space/time known as the universe, He would have learned its outcome no earlier than at least that point, no?

I agree with your last statement about "God gave us minds", but am unsure as to why you posted it there; can you explain?

[dfpolis]

@Frettsy Before and after belong to changing things: this happened before the change, that after. In God there is no change, so He sees all reality always. We are limited & live and know sequentially. If I really choose He sees what I choose because I choose it. If I am not free, He knows that. All God needs to know for me to be free is that i have many options in my power, and the new line of action is originated by me. He knows this. So, I am free. Deut 30:19 is clear that we can choose life.

[Frettsy]

@dfpolis this is very contradictory, though. if God created me out of nothing, and if I have true free will, then He did NOT know what all of my actions would be ***before I was created***. it's that simple. something doesn't add up.. something has to change.

[dfpolis]

@Frettsy There is no before and after in God. Yes, He loves us enough to create us even knowing we can sin. But, there is never a time when God does not know what we do choose, because God sees all creation at once.

[dfpolis]

@Frettsy I posted the mind bit because we cannot expect that everything will be spelled out just as we want it in Scripture. We need to use logic to work out what it implies for the question at hand. Here we need to work out how to affirm 2 things Scripture tells us: (1) God is omniscient and (2) we have the power to choose life or death. To reject either is to reject revelation. There are many other cases like this. E.G., we can't earn salvation, but we need works of charity to be saved Mat 25.