Genesis - Firth of Fifth - Phil's mistake in Rome

[jensen91865]

THEY ALSO DIDNT PLAY THE ENTIRE SONG OF FITH OF FITH

[jensen91865]

FUCK STUERMER!!!

[nerolupo70]

the guitarist is very poor; he don't have the sensitivity of the first hackett.. banks in this concert seemed unwilling.

[jensen91865]

OOPS

[jensen91865]

THEY MADE A MISTAKE ALRIGHT THEY DIDNT GET HACKETT AND GABRIEL!!!!!!!!!

[jensen91865]

AND TO GET PETER GABRIEL BACK

[jensen91865]

I THINK WHAT MIKE REALLY MEANT WAS TO GET SECURITY TO THROW THAT RICKENBACHER TWIDDLER HACKETT WANNABE DARYL STUERMER OFF THE STAGE AND GET STEVE HACKETT BACK

[bublikespain]

dear me phil...

[wishyouwerehere1986]

nel video del dvd inquadrano phil collins che sorride, sarà stato per quello...

[jmorrell22]

it a combination of errors, but Mike Rutherford started the ball rolling. The guitar solo is so unmelodic it's painful.

[scifiwriter98]

Stuermer never could play Hackett's guitar parts. His playing on the 1980 live version of "Ripples" is unlistenable.

[ozoshah]

by the way, the great groups don't follow the drummer, the drummer follows the band, hahaha.

[ozoshah]

i dont care, to me genesis finished in 1977. ;)

[Ardakapalasan]

@ozoshah genesis started in 1977, right about the time peter gabriel finished

[NeilThompson30]

@Ardakapalasan - oh shut up you tart - get the crappy year right as well - 1975

[kamwrites]

Maybe I just can't hear the drums well on my computer, but I don't see what the fuss is about. There seems to be a stumble on Tony's part, but things get right back on track.

[Enie009]

A lot of different views on this issue. My opinion: the backing band has to keep the tempo steady, whatever the soloist does. There is absolutely no room for "rubato" in a 5-piece rockband playing an uptempo tune. Tony has timing problems here indeed but Phil should have been confident that Tony manage to get back on track.

[acobaco]

I think we can forgive him

[Skyboatpilot]

*shakes head* shoving all those notes into the guitar solo... He ruins it. It's supposed to be atmospheric!

Off topic, I know, but still...

[TheExcelsior1]

@Skyboatpilot Daryl Stuermer never got this solo right even though he's an unquestionablly top-notch guitarist. Saw him try it twice (82 & 92) and was disappointed both times. But enough criticism! A great band (the best, for me) and sorely missed.

[eskimospy77]

@TheExcelsior1 if Daryl Stuermer is disappointed at how he plays the guitar solo in Firth of Fith I'd have to say that he's being to hard on himself. I think that he does excellent. I'm only disapponited in that he feels disappointed. If only he would see his mastery the way I do.

[Skyboatpilot]

*shakes head* shoving all those notes into the guitar solo... He ruins it. It's supposed to be atmospheric!

Off topic, I know, but still...

[Rrrrrrrrrico]

I like to see people like them making mistakes...maybe because it gives me more confidence, I'm not perfect but neither are they. It makes them sympathetic...although they are either way :D

[fishwithfredo]

Tony stumbles and gets off beat. Phil stays on beat for a few seconds, then attempts to correct. As this is happening, Tony catches up. They pass each other going in opposite directions. Watch Mike. He's using his body almost like a conductor would use a baton to get everyone back on the same page. At least they kept playing and got it fixed.

[Nyamej]

This is gem of an example on how the drummer/rhythm section can recover from a soloist's flub. Given that the complexity, speed and style of the passage doesn't leave much space for "restitching" - not to mention there's a gazillion fans who have this music emblazoned to memory - it's a fantastic teaching example to music students. Listen to how Collins extends the fill. WATCH Rutherford look up to find his way back in.

Retitle to "Textbook Recovery Over Banks' Solo" :)

[frk75]

usualy when it comes to tempo problems, its often tony's fault, i heard tony doing tempo mistakes a lot in a lot of other bootlegs. now in that case, i can confirm phil was the problem. having played this songs regulary with my own tribute, i can confirm you have to slow down just a little bit during that section, its part of the original groove, but phil slowed way too much. it was his mistake all the way.

[marupheus]

Phil didn't mess up! Tony originally goofed at approximately 30secs into the video where there is a brief but small gap in his piece causing him to speed up. Mike then messed up cause he didn't follow Tony's lead and compensate like Phil was trying to do. Phil was caught in the middle, and if he is at any fault it's that he should have stayed with Tony's lead all the way through instead of trying to go back to Mike's tempo. This video needs to be renamed to Tony and Mike's mistake in Rome!

[kjelici9]

This is what I resent on DVDs of live shows - you can't hear what they actually played, the whole show could have been dubbed... On some footages you can actually see that the drummer and/or other players aren't actually PLAYING what we are SEEING...

But mind that, it wouldn't be great if we had only a bad recording to "enjoy"...

Best wishes from a Genesis/Collins/Gabriel fan (also a drummer)!

[rasputin1917]

Fault two: ..Mike, not realizing why Phil started speeding [because Phil was actually following Tony's speed-up] tried to pull back to the original timing. This must mean that his in-ear monitor did not have Tony's top solo keyboard loud enough. So the second fault lies with the stage monitor engineer who did not ask Mike if he has enough keys in his monitor mix. This oversight caused Mike to unnecessarily expose the band to a timing error, that should have passed noticed. LOS ENDOS

[rasputin1917]

Fault one: Tony is nervous about the passage and momentarily tries to slightly rush it. This is not a major drawback, can happen to anyone and can easily be covered if properly followed by half-competent accompanying musicians. Now not even for one second I could think that Mike HEARD the speed-up and didn't instinctively cover for his momentarily nervous mate, Tony. I don't think he could hear Tony's solo but was listening to the drums and must have been surprised that Phil started speeding...

[rasputin1917]

Continued: at 0:29 Phil follows Tony in the slight speed-up, as a natural reflex, in order to cover for him, but Mike, who probably is not hearing Tony's solo clearly enough on stage [and the speed-up] in order to follow him as well, "rebels" and tries to pull back to the original timing, causing the bass to lag more and more behind. Poor Phil is caught in the middle, not knowing who to follow. So the verdict is:

[rasputin1917]

NO ,,, IT IS F O R SURE: MIKE RUTHERFORD.S fault really... TONY plays solo, so anyone that plays solo in any type of music HAS to be followed by the rest. NOW, it goes as such: During his solo, at 0:28 he speeds up slightly, due to the technical difficulty of the passage. The problem lies that the others accompanying him should have followed suit, but here is what happened:

[MNori]

Nick Davis, the producer of When in Rome DVD, said in the bonus material that Tony fell out of the planet on Firth solo and the band fell behind him. It is edited on the DVD usung footage of othrer gigs. See you guys

[AL5522]

es humano tambien...!!!! genio!!!

[MNori]

It´s not Phil´s mistake. It´s Tony´s. Just hear and you will know.

[FabulousJohnson]

@MNori Phil goes off beat first @0:28, then Tony tries to fall on beat with Phil's mistake @0:31, but by then phil is a half measure off then they pull it together by 0:39.

[dulcimerkj52]

@WillowLane11 @alanjpearson

CHILDREN, sit back, relax, and enjoy some good music, and remember: arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics...even if you win, YOU'RE STILL RETARDED!! Peace :)

[WillowLane11]

@dulcimerkj52 Your so right man, I tried to make peace with him but he continued being an arrogant fool, I will just ignore him, his increasingly pathetic responses are getting boring anyway.

[alanjpearson]

OK sonny, I'm bored with your infantile insults, didn't take you long to revert. You don't know when to stop your "my dick is bigger than yours" contest. I've been around twice your length of time on this planet and forgotten more than you know about music or anything else for that matter. No doubt your are an air guitar merchant who can only imagine what it's like to play any instrument, never mind live in front of hundreds of people. Run along and play with your Lego bricks. PS My IQ is 148.

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Oh really an IQ of 148, yet you still manage to make mistakes that would only be expected from a child- ''...your are...''. Frankly bitch, I don't give a shit how long you've been around, in fact, you poor man, it sounds like amnesia is setting in. PS, if you would like to know how long my dick is (king serpent), ask your mother, I plowed her last night.

[alanjpearson]

@WillowLane11 You are all mouth. I would love to meet you and give you the slapping you deserve. Luckily most other Genesis fans are a pleasure to meet. Foul mouthed little upstarts like you should be shot at birth.

[alanjpearson]

Well done yourself - you managed to get through an entire insult without an expletive. I'm so glad to be able to educate someone of your limited intelligence. We can agree to disagree. As for better use of Genesis time, I play in a Genesis tribute so there is no doubt I can better use my time.

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Look bitch, the only thing I find entertaining and educational is the way you try to change the subject and completely ignore what I say, when confronted. How about instead of trying to copy Genesis, you create your own music, although I understand it would be hard for someone like you with such limited intelligence- prick.

[alanjpearson]

Well we are learning a lot about you "willowlane11" - hiding behind your gay pseudonym. 1) You can't spell 2) You have no musical taste 3) You think you know everything and everyone - you have no idea who I am. Stuermer isn't fit to wipe Steve Hacketts boots. And you have a foul mouth.

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Holy shit your a dumb son of a bitch. Firstly, how do you know that ''willowlane11'' is a ''homosexual false name''. Secondly, At least I don't spell ''didn't''-''fifn't. Thirdly, I don't think I know everything and everyone, I have no idea why you think that I think I do. There is no such thing as ''good or bad taste'' let alone ''no taste''-you stupid shit. I like Hackett as well but I think that Stuermer is an overall better guitarist.

[alanjpearson]

@WillowLane11 Well we learn some more about you. Judging by your limited vocabulary, intelligence and intolerance for alternate opinion, you are American, less than 25 years of age and IQ about 100. I know it is difficult, but try constructing a sentence without a redneck expletive in it and when you go back to school this week, ask your teacher about "compare and contrast". You might learn something.

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Congratulations, even though your foolish presumptions were extremely broad you still only managed to get one correct-I'm under 25. Your pathetic argument and even more pathetic accusations have as many holes in them as a sieve. Although I'm finding it entertaining and rather educational I think it is time we agree to disagree and terminate this little battle of ours, our time could be better utilized embracing GENESIS- surely even you agree with me there.

[potbrownies1663]

who gives a fuck. dude who posted this needs a life

[alanjpearson]

@willowLane11 So now who is being judgmental about others then, you moron? Don't preach to me you little prick - I'm just as entitled to have an opinion as anyone. By any standards that solo is crap. GFY

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Cunts fuck listen hear pearson, I agree everybody has a right to his own opinion, but to say that Stuermer massacred the solo is a load of fucking bullshit. I have a right to be judgmental about you because you are a nobody, where as for you to judge Stuermer, a man who achieves more in an hour than you achieve in a lifetime, is fucking bullshit!

[Hypnopomp]

It's hard to tell who's at fault, really. Mike flubs some notes, too, and actually the whole thing is a disaster between 0:26 - 0:39.

@rasputin1917:

You're right: Daryl plays the solo just as badly as he always did.

[AmerkFlack]

Love Phil - he missed a beat. That (to some who don't play drums) is a mildly complex drum line...not wicked hard but easily "fk-up-able" and unfortunately, the nature of the time in that music you literally have to wait to get back on beat - which Phil did flawlessly.

[theworshipsinger]

Brilliant recovery of a very easy and common human error, particularly early in tour It's live music after all!

[RadDudeski69]

As for Daryl's solo, he already played it like this on the 1992 tour, so I guess the guys liked it this way. If he had played it note-by-note the way Steve used to play it, we'd all be here blaming him because he just copied and pasted the original solo.

[RadDudeski69]

I wouldn't say it was Phil's fault. I listened to the actual recording from the Encore Series CD a hundred times and my opinion is that Tony slowed down a little and then played faster again, and, maybe because of that, Phil went out of time and had to stop for a split second. I was there and all my friends and me looked at each other, equally surprised by what happened and by how quickly they got back on track (hats off for that!).

[alanjpearson]

Brill - nice to see the boys are human.

But it's a shame someone fifn't push Stuermer off the stage for massacring the solo - prick.

[rasputin1917]

@alanjpearson tony is playing the solo, on synth, not daryl when phil has to stop to re-catch the tempo

[WillowLane11]

@alanjpearson Mother fucking bitch, go back to school and learn how to spell. By the way, Daryl Stuermer is the best guitarist Genesis ever had playing for them. I think that judgmental pricks like you should be denied oxygen.

[flavy1000]

Jjaaa! That`s true...great musicians can make "fails" too=)

Phil was playing in his"own planet" ja