Peter's Keys, and No Salvation Outside the Church

[jconder45]

Some good stuff, but wrong on 'the keys". The early church was practically unanimous that the power of the keys, while given to Peter on the occasion of Matt. 16:18, were also given to the rest of the Apostles. Paleocrat leaves out the part where Christ gives Peter the power "to bind and loose", yet that is expilcitly given to ALL the apostles and disciples in Matt. 18. St. Augustine says that Peter in Mat. 16:18 took the keys on behalf of the Whole Church.

[Z1GGYK3V]

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans

The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ. (Matthew 6:5-13). - i have loads more of these traditions made up by the Catholic Church

[hockeyrulesus]

@Z1GGYK3V So, you have loads of Anti Catholic Propaganda. Nothing new.

[Z1GGYK3V]

The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius

So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

[hockeyrulesus]

@Z1GGYK3V

When something is proclaimed a Dogma of the Catholic Church, it doesn't mean this is when it was first believed, but this is when it was made official, usually because of Heresies, denying the doctrine.

The Eucharist, for example, was always believed by Christians and can be found in the writings of the 1st century Christians like Ignatius 107AD "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ"

[hockeyrulesus]

@Z1GGYK3V Read John 6:22-64

[RockyBalboa211]

@Z1GGYK3V: If it was decreeded then it must had been done all along prior to the decree.

[Z1GGYK3V]

The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence

There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read 1st John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Romans 8:1). 1439

[defgill]

your traditionalist? or novous ordor?

[Childinfaith]

@defgill

He has rejected Sedevacantism if that is what you are referring too.

[ALURnswrsRNURpryrs]

Bravo!!

If anyone wishes to disagree with you on ANY of these points they are in COMPLETE DENIAL.

[daltonagre]

Bible, Jesus and God are the names that Protestants gave to themselves. I live in Brazil.

[johnthreesixteen316]

What I find most interesting about catholics is that they claim the RCC has the authority and not the Bible. Yet, when you ask them how they can prove that the RCC has the authority, they quote the Bible! Circle reasoning. They can't have it both ways.

[mysteriumaenigma]

@johnthreesixteen316 - Where does the bible say that the bible is the Authority?

Bible says that church is the authority.

So what the Catholics say is perfectly logical.

You Protestants say completely illogical stuff. You say bible is the authority, even though bible does not say that. Then you also say church doe snot have authority, when in reality bible says that church has authority. You protestants are the ones who violate bible.

[johnthreesixteen316]

If you read the WHOLE Bible you will see that Christ gave the keys to ALL of the apostles, not just Peter.

[mysteriumaenigma]

@johnthreesixteen316 - Where does the bible say that other apostles were given the key also?

Keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter. Matthew 16:19.

In Old days Kings gave the prime minister the keys of the kingdom when the king had to go to a different kingdom. Kings did that to give the prime minister the authority to run the kingdom on the king's behalf during the king's physical absence.

[Ritsaart]

Okay I am not catholic. I am calvinistic. I am however not anti-catholic. I have had a good experience with catholic Christians so I am not against them.

The problem is. How far does papal infallibility go? The pope commanded a lot of bad things in the past.

Because I am a Calvinist I am going to hell you say?

I think this is stupid. St Augustine is goin to hell then, because he does not agree with your doctrine.

[DeepThawts]

Papal infallibility is incredibly limited. It only applies to statements made in his role as the successor to Peter, and only when making a definitive statement on matters of faith (which he does not do without much prayer and consultation with his brother bishops). This is such a serious matter, it has only happened twice in the church's history. It has nothing to do with the pope's level of impeccability (lack of sin). The pope is an ordinary human being who sins as we all do.

[Ritsaart]

Well, the infallibility of the pope is not a fact in the early church. We cannot even find in the early church writings that Peter was the pope. Also one of his successors, Clement, did not have superior authority. The first pope is st Constantine.

You said it only happened twice in the church. The pope alone isn't problem. It is the whole infallibiliy of the church. I don't find things like: purgatory and veneration in the bible. I have to read the catholic theology into it to see it.

[DeepThawts]

Purgatory is in the Bible. You won't find it in there by that name, any more than you will find the word "Trinity" or "Pope" in there. But you find the concepts in there just fine.

Even if the concepts weren't in there, would it matter? The Bible is not a complete historical record of the Church and its teachings, and the early Church fathers never pretended otherwise. Why, I wonder, do some Christians treat it as if it were?

[Ritsaart]

Well purgatory is not in the bible. There may be some verses that could be interpreted in that way but I think that it contradicts the rest of scripture.

I do not have problem with tradition but the problem comes when the church starts CONTRADICTING what earlier fathers and the bible itself says. If what the church says is infallible. A pope cannot later on change doctrines from earlier popes. Writings of St Clement who was a POPE are a slap in the face of todays Roman church.

[DeepThawts]

1Cor. 3:13-15: "Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

That is, those who accept Christ but have imperfections will suffer loss, but will still be saved. That's pretty clear.

[TheBradTobin]

besides the bible we dicover truth by reason and it is clearly unreasonable to believe that there is no purgatory

[Ritsaart]

The Roman catholic doctrine of justification totally fits with purgatory. But it is read into scripture.

The reformed faith alone theology does not fit with purgatory. Maybe there will be some kind of purging to test the works but we are presented blameless before God. The justification is not obtained by works, it is only by faith in the finished work of Christ. To believe that we need to be purged from sin is against the Word of God. Sin is only washed away by the Blood of Christ.

[CatholicConversion]

Actually, the fathers closest to the apostles such as irenaeus, ignatius, Polycarp I believe all wrote about apostolic authority and papal succession.

I will post them if you'd like.

[Ritsaart]

Well I want to know if they talked about papal infallibility but I dont think they did.

Clement according to your theology was the fourth pope. There is not really that much evidence that he was.

[CatholicConversion]

Well, I would also like to point out that when protestants typically point to a church father who "disagrees" with Catholic doctrine, they are usually speaking of something in which wasn't ruled upon by the church.

Never mind that these same church fathers absolutely agree in the authority of the church on matters of faith and morals.

So basically, if informed of the church's position they would conform such beliefs.

This is often left out of the protestant argument.

[iamlondon]

Hi, have you considered a vocation to the priesthood?

Drop me a line, I'll tell you why I ask the question.

[berrytc44]

Shadows can heal people so how much more relics? Sir the meaning of the Acts passage that you are speaking of is that the Spirit had come to earth and was making his mark on the world! That does not mean we should take bones of old saints and use them as a way of healing or what have you is a jump that your legs are not long enough to make!

[Childinfaith]

To bad scripture doesn't agree with you.

[jas03000]

alot of rambling about an old book that is full of myths.

[Agila1]

"Now this isn't good, this is bad"

true XD

[deliveringit]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. He said "You are Kephas, and upon this Kephas I will build my Church." Kephas means "rock" in Aramaic. The Bible records that Peter was also called Kephas. See John 1:42 or Gal 2:9. End of argument.

[steve2746]

deliveringit--You said---Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. HMMM I wonder why

atthew did'nt know this when he wrote his gospel? He could've used the same greek word for rock instead of using two different greek words!!!!!!!

[deliveringit]

IF you think Jesus spoke Greek, sir, then you are just plain wrong. No one seriously thinks Jesus spoke Greek. You failed to address my main argument that the BIBLE ITSELF says in Jn 1:42 that Peter's name was Kephas which is a transliteration of the Aramaic.

[paleocrat]

Agreed. Jesus most certainly would have spoken the vulgar language of the culture, and this would have been Aramaic. Greek was merely the language the book of Matt. was written in, as his audience spoke and read that language.

[dhood999]

Peter's key my friend was the Gospel, those that believed this truth ... that they were chosen before the foundations of the earth and not based on any good they done but the free mercy of God to be in Christ and saved from sin ... that key is the Gospel that saves ... not the corporate church that makes even Christ to submit to them

[Estaban333]

Prayer to the Saints: I have never met anyone who would not ask a friend to pray for them - I cannot see the difference between doing that and asking a good friend who is no longer on earth to do the same.

[tario26]

@Estaban333 the differnce is, one friend is alive and can hear you and the other one is in the ground and can't hear you....big difference...Jesus Christ desires that we pray to God by speaking from your heart, not a hail mary or our father, just speak, talk and ask God for things from your heart, this is what he desires, not a repetition of a hail mary 100 times over...Praying to mary or saints will profit you nothing, only God can hear and answer those prayers!

[Estaban333]

@tario26 So you believe. So how did Moses and Elijah talk with Jesus at the Transfiguration? I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." Matt. 22:32

[tario26]

@Estaban333 wherever they are they have no God given power to hear prayers....only God can hear and answer prayers...have you ever tried building a prayer relationship with God and speaking to him from your heart rather then read a scripted prayer like the hail mary or such? This is what God really wants to hear you speak, talk and ask him things from your heart and build a relationship, you won't regret it

[Estaban333]

@tario26 Of course I talk to God in my own words, what do you think Catholics do? I also talk to Our Lady and the saints, the fact that you don't think they hear me is inconesquential. Goodbye

[Reldur2]

THe Catholic Church considers most protestants christians excluding mormons and jehovah's witnesses

[paleocrat]

Christians outside of the Church. We do not recognize their ecclesial assemblies as churches. We do not recognize their ordinations. We believe that much of what they teach is heresy. They lack most all of the Sacraments except for baptism, and this is only for sacramental churches.

[migo53333]

Hey Mr. Paleocrat..How is it that Catholiscim is on a steady decline, especially in the USA...how would a God allow that to happen to His one true church.....humans= confusion..

[paleocrat]

If we use that line of reasoning, then we would have to conceded that Islam is the right religion, for it is steadily increasing and has just surpassed Catholicism in numbers worldwide. This reasoning presumes that numbers substantiate truth claims. This is a serious fallacy.

Yes, humans are awfully fragile. Truth isn't always en vogue. Traditions are maligned, and the faith of our fathers forgotten. But this is consistent with both Scripture and history. Modernism is taking its toll, big time

[migo53333]

you dont understand where i am coming from...you dont need religions or these massive organizations to experienc God and spirituality...if you mentally need it, so be it....spirituality does not consist of rules and regulations....someday maybe you will see and feel this....

[paleocrat]

Uh, your comment had absolutely nothing to do with people not needing religious organizations. You just poked a shot at the decline among American congregations, and put it in the form of a question. I answered it, and instead of admitting the foolishness of the argument (if you can call it that), you run to something else.

I hope you never use that argument/question again (seeing that it sucks), but I think you will.

[migo53333]

are those ties you wear from the Rush Limbaugh Sears collection....this country is going in the shitter...

[paleocrat]

What does my tie have to do with anything? No, it is not a Rush Limbaugh collection tie. I was unaware that he had a line of ties. I do not listen to his program. Personally, I don't care for him or his political ideology.

[migo53333]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve Mr. Paleocrat?

[paleocrat]

That has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't waste time on matters not immediately related to the topic at hand. Sorry.

[migo53333]

Thats because you know where Im going with it....You obviously didnt answer the question, but you still had the same amount of time to type a diferent response...

[paleocrat]

No, I just get tired of people wasting my time by asking questions after question that have nothing to do with the video at hand.

I have answered that question elsewhere. I have given my answer on videos, in comment sections, on my radio program, and on my blog.

btw- I have no idea where you are going with anything. You haven't demonstrated even the smallest degree of coherence. Your comments are sporadic.

[paleocrat]

Demonstrate how this has to do with the primacy of Peter or Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. If you do, I would be more than willing to deal with it. Otherwise, I will not entertain what has the full appearance of a rabbit trail leading to a personal hobby horse. This sounds fair to me.

[migo53333]

No Religion is the right Religion!!! spirituality must prevail....but I know your the type that would not even understand what i am talking about..which is pretyy sad and scarey!!!

[pairunoyd]

it is weird that soooo many riches were bestowed upon this great nation, made up mostly of protestants, early in its formation. Might not mean much, but its interesting...

[B0thergirl]

Protestants and all religions are not of Christ. Christ said we are not to have any religion (practice) except to care for Widows (destitute, bereft) and orphans(bereaved of protection) that means not only to look after those who are rejected but also to those who do not know Christ.

[B0thergirl]

Sorry I posted the previous post in the wrong place.

[BenAliGtor]

Want the ultimate objection to the Catholic Church- the one that cannot be refuted? The type of individual that the Roman Catholic Church attracts and produces. I have yet to see a single convert to Roman Catholicism within the last 500 years whose life is worthy of admiration or emulation.

[virumdei]

The Catholic Church is the Church for the everyman, look at Blessed John XXIII who was a mason and is now beatified, or Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton Who Converted from Anglicanism, or John Cardinal Newman, or G.K. Chesterton, or

[BenAliGtor]

"The Catholic Church is the Church for the everyman, look at Blessed John XXIII who was a mason and is now beatified, or Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton Who Converted from Anglicanism, or John Cardinal Newman, or G.K. Chesterton, or "

John Henry Newman followed his male lover, Ambrose St. John, into Catholicism. Chesterton was a glutton, drunk, racist and antisemite.John XXIII was born Catholic.Seton seems to have been a princiled individual, but her canonization was merely a political gesture.

[virumdei]

Give me your proof of such claims!

[perhibeo]

You haven't done your homework; Catholic converts, G.K.Chesterton, Graham Greene, Ernest Hemingway, Bobe Hope, John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Francis J. Beckwith,Clare Boothe Luce, Rene Girard, Thomas Howard, Frederick Hart,Dave Brubeck, Richard Crashaw, Etc..Etc..

[B0thergirl]

And Laura Ingraham political radio personality

[B0thergirl]

My mother is worth admiration and emulation. She suffered great pain and was handicapped since she was 40 years old. She trusted in God and wore a smile everyday except is times of enormous pains. Most of the time you could never tell she was suffering. She was a Catholic. Now you know of one worth admiring. Do you know many Catholics?

[jyn088not]

Peter who was married - Mark 1:30 also seen in Luke and Matthew - was the apostle to the Jews - says Galatians 2:7-8 - while Paul was the apostle of the Gentile world . Paul withstood Peter to the face note in 2:11 of Galatians - not something one does to an infallible potentate . 666 was the number of the Latins in true Greek alphanumeric and the Latin king appointed the original Popes .

[B0thergirl]

The worse thing that happened to the Catholic church was to be make a home in pagan Rome. Oh and to make one man head of the church. Man did that not Jesus. But then again nothing can happen outside the will of God.

[PatronRepo]

Jesus is the head of His church (Col 1:18) and Peter and his successors have the keys/authority (Mt 16:19).

Have you ever pondered how quickly the pagan Roman Empire was replaced by Christianity? The Gospel changed the world then, but perhaps people underestimate or generally try to ignore it.

[B0thergirl]

You mean how fast Pagan Rome bastardized the Christian church. For instance the changing dates of celebrations and incorporating veneration of graven images. All saints day used to be in May but was move to October when pagans celebrated the dead. Christianity is filled with paganism's. Luther and other reformist fought to bring christianity back to its roots. Thank God.

[chantguy520]

Jesus Made Peter the head of the Church. After Peter it was Linus then Anacletus then Clement. Unbroken succession all the way up to Benedict XVI. The bible and history refutes your opinion. Matt 16:18 Read the Church fathers.

[B0thergirl]

chantguy520 wrote "Matt 16:18 "

This does not prove your point because you and other have misinterpreted this verse. Translation refutes your opinion.

[chantguy520]

The early church fathers did not misinterpret this verse. All of the successors to the apostles believed Peter to be the first pope. These were the very men appointed by the apostles themselves to carry on the faith. You are in error. It is not my opinion it is the opinion of Christ's true Church. I have scripture the fathers and 2000 years of history on my side. You do not. Your theology did not exist until the 16th century.

[Gutcheckcoming]

umm no they didnt they fabricated it in the 3rd century, the verse can't be misinterpreted because it never said peter was the rock the church would be built on Jesus is.Our theology existed before the catholic church perverted it. Go bow to a few idols catholics saying they are the true church is laughable.

[chantguy520]

"fabricated in the 3rd century" Who says? You!!! This false opinion exists only in your mind and has not the slightest resemblance to reality. The historic Church was Catholic from the get go!!! "Peter not the rock?" Have you ever even read this verse? Jesus plainly says that Peter is the rock that He will build His Church on.

Catholics do not worship idols!!! You do not even know what Catholics believe. You are making a fool of yourself.

[Gutcheckcoming]

it does not say peter is the rock at all peter is the petros and on this petras ie Christ he will build his church.

[chantguy520]

Your answer only exposes your ignorance of biblical Greek. Here is a quote from R Sungenis's web site(catholicapologeticsintern­ational) that demolishes your erroneous opinion:

"petros" is a proper name that can only be used once in order to leave room for the noun "petra" to identify the application of the proper noun "petros." We do the same in English. We don't say: "John is a John," we say, "John is a boy."

Also see utube vid: Peter IS the ROCK-a quick GREEK PRIMER

[chantguy520]

Your answer only exposes your ignorance of biblical Greek. Here is a quote from R Sungenis's web site(catholicapologeticsintern­ational) that demolishes your erroneous opinion:

"petros" is a proper name that can only be used once in order to leave room for the noun "petra" to identify the application of the proper noun "petros." We do the same in English. We don't say: "John is a John," we say, "John is a boy."

Also see utube vid: Peter IS the ROCK-a quick GREEK PRIMER

[Gutcheckcoming]

That is not a true statement at all ,greek purposely uses gender when the same words have completely different meanings as it does in that verse. That debate ended long ago and the catholics have no leg to stand on in it.

[chantguy520]

Matt 16;19 (KJV) says: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

The word "this" refers back to Peter, Jesus is not referencing himself. You are bending the meaning of the Gospels. If Jesus said "I am the rock and on this rock I will build my Church" You would have a point. Other wise you are the one who has no leg to stand on. If I am wrong prove it by facts not unproven opinions.

[Gutcheckcoming]

again this debate ended long ago you have no understanding of the exogesis of the passage nor the reason for changing genders, peter is later described clearly as one of several pillars of the Church and Christ is the cornerstone and the rock. You are just wrong based on the greek text where gender is applied to show different meanings.

[chantguy520]

Exactly when and how did this debate end long ago? As far as I know all of the early church fathers said Peter is the Rock. There was no debate until the 16th century. I will take the early church fathers view of the passage over your erroneous opinion. Peter's name was Simon and Jesus changed it to Peter (Rock)

Is Jesus the Rock? Yes. Did he make Simon the Rock? Yes. Did Jesus rename Simon? Yes or no? What did he rename him? The reason for the two genders is the proper Noun Peter.

[Gutcheckcoming]

again the reason for the genders is to express differences not for proper nouns. Peter is clearly assigned as a pillar with john and james not the rock of the church which is clearly stated as Christ, if you take one verse out of context to rationalize all the wickedness the catholic church does and has done i pity you.

[chantguy520]

Did Jesus change the name of a man called Simon bar Jonah?

Yes or No.

[planset333]

the church fathers were false teachers... thats putting your trust in man...

(gates of Hades shall not prevail against it)

the amount of problems and false doctrine contrary to scripture in catholicism proves that the gates of hades DID prevail against it..

i dont even have to list more than one.. just look at the pope kiss the quran.. and dont even try to justify that.. your supposed to hate every false way...

[chantguy520]

The church Fathers were the very ones who put the cannon of sacred scripture together. So I guess you believe a bible put together by false teachers.

[chantguy520]

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. So according to you Jesus is a liar.

[planset333]

no ... actually that means that Jesus wasn't talking about the Catholic Church as his Church.. Jesus didn't lie at all.. but the gates of hell obviously prevailed against the catholic church.. not the True church of Christ though.. That is the real Church... catholic church is not talked about in the scriptures.. you got it twisted and perverted just like paul warned of..

[chantguy520]

The Catholic Church was the only Church until the protestant revolt. If you can prove otherwise I will leave it today.

[planset333]

prove otherwise? with what? historical documents?

is that what your trust is in? read Colossians 2:8

also, the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.. Acts 11:26

no catholic church was ever mentioned in the bible.. its a trick man.. catholicism is a religion that leads to hell...

[Childinfaith]

Is the Bible not also a document?

[Childinfaith]

True. But does it say it is sufficient and how did I suggest it wasn't inspired?

[B0thergirl]

Peter was not the bedrock of the church. He was Jesus' stumbling stone/rock. He was slow to convert and was not willing to give up his life for Jesus so he denied him 3 times. He was the weakest of the Apostles next to Judas however they both fulfilled what God wanted them to do in order to bring about the salvation of the world. Paul even said that none were of higher rank than the other.

[abddfrthg]

So our Divine Savior also has established His Supreme Court, His Supreme Judge, to give us the true meaning of the Scriptures, and to give us the true revelation and doctrines of the Word of Jesus. The Son of the Living God has pledged His Word that this Supreme Court is infallible, and therefore, the true Catholic never doubts.

[abddfrthg]

In every well-ruled country there must be such a thing as this..a Supreme Law, Supreme Court, Supreme Judge, that all the people abide by. All are bound by decisions, and without that, no government could stand. Even amnog the Indian tribes such a condition of affairs exists. How are they kept together? By their chief, who is their dictator.

[zodigital]

Found it at Blue Letter Bible:

1) a stone

a) of small stones

b) of building stones

c) metaph. of Christ

Looks like more than a small stone? Which one should I go with?

[paleocrat]

Petros means stone. The problem rests with the use of gender in Greek. Remember, Christ was in all likelihood not speaking Greek. It is far more likely that he was speaking Aramaic. So what we have is something Jesus said in one language being translated into another language.

So why Petros? Because any other rendering of would have given Peter a female name.

We should take note that Cephas would be synonymous with Petra in Greek.

[zodigital]

Once again, thank you for taking the time to explain things clearly. I think I may need to take classes in order to have a better understanding of what I read in New Testament scripture.

[MRKetter81]

And once again you fail to prove that Rome is the only carried authority after the apostles.

This circal gets big enough, I can see why so many people cant see it, but it logicaly falls to peaces.

[paleocrat]

a. You must keep in mind that these are responses to specific claims made in certain videos. It was not meant to be exhaustive.

b. All reasoning is circular in so far as your conclusion must be in harmony with your starting point. Otherwise, your conclusion would then become your new starting point. Presuppositionalism 101.

[uhaveatwistedreality]

Thanks for posting your videos, they are keepers!

[pjos111]

Reject the catholic faith!!!!!! You are saying we are lost if we don`t accept your beliefs! WOW you sound like your a GOD. Wise up!

Tell me will GOD hold it against me for Not praying to Saints or Mary.

[pjos111]

I think most people who are not Catholic believe this. That Jesus is our saviour only. That he, only, died for our sins. That he is Our mediator only. That because of what Jesus Has done for us is why we will get to heaven. Its all about Jesus Jesus Jesus. There is one way to God and Jesus is the way. Satan has built many other ways.

[paleocrat]

I can say this much: God will hold against you the fact that you knowingly and willingly denied and slandered the dogmas of the his Church.

[B0thergirl]

It's funny to me that those who are first to curse people are Catholic. I have met a few. Not very Christian. Jesus would say pray for the person and yourself so that both of you can know my love better. Jesus did not institute a religion man did. Man got off course. We are to preach the Gospel, not dogmas. We all have that responsibility. Please read Romans 2:1-7.

[B0thergirl]

John 2:25-27 Christ has given us the promise of eternal life. 26 I'm writing to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 The anointing you received from Christ lives in you. You don't need anyone to teach you something else. Instead, Christ's anointing teaches you about everything. His anointing is true and contains no lie. So live in Christ as he taught you to do.

[PatronRepo]

If you love Him, follow His commandments. John 14:15 Which commandments do you follow, and how can you be sure that damaged human nature isn't keeping you from following a commandment?

[paleocrat]

Furthermore, the church has for 2,000 years (1,500 years older than your religion) adhered to something called Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church there is no salvation). In our day of gross secular pluralism and the ecumenism that followed, this is not en vogue. Regardless, it stands as a dogma of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

[B0thergirl]

Wow. You are way off the mark. Gods Church consist of all Christians. It is not a building, human organization or denomination. Church by the way comes from the word circle. It a circle of faith driven believers. God only cares what is in your heart. No amount of works can win his favor.

[pjos111]

You are not to pray to Saints Full stop. What you do is a doctrine of men. By the way the Bowls aere the prayers of the Saints. Where does it say the saints On EARTH!!

[pjos111]

Where did GOD give us instuction to pray to those that have left the world? Where? You can`t answer this. There is Nowhere in the old or new testament that says we should pray to Saints or Angels or Mary. The reason you refuse to accept this is because you are in comfort with yourself and refuse Gods word by making your own rules.

[paleocrat]

Due to the fact that I have videos dealing with the tomfoolery of Sola Scriptura, I will not answer your remarks which happen to rely upon that absurd doctrine for their rationale.

[B0thergirl]

Agreed. "Intercession of Saints" means the living faithful. all believers are sanctified (Meaning holy). Our sanctification is not due to anything we do but faith (given by God) in who Jesus is and what he did.

[B0thergirl]

We are not to pray to the faithful. We are to ask the faithful to pray for us. I guess I didn't read your argument correctly the first time.

[seltian]

And that's what we do when we pray to saints. That's what the Hail Mary says: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

[B0thergirl]

Mary is not alive to hear you. She sleeps like the rest of those who have passed from this life.

[seltian]

"'He is not a God of the dead, but of the living.'" (Matthew 22:32)

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

[B0thergirl]

What have these verses got to do with the topic.

[seltian]

It means that those in heaven are alive. Especially in 1 Corinthians, Paul is basically saying that in Heaven, he will be more alive then he is on Earth.

[B0thergirl]

That is not what those verses say. You would really have to stretch you imagination to believe they do.

[seltian]

I think they say that pretty clearly. I should also point out that there's no Scriptural evidence to say that the dead are unconcious.

[B0thergirl]

Jesus refers to those who have die as sleeping. He was able to wake them up by calling them for example Lazarus. When sleeping we are unconscious.

[Smh96]

Then explain the heavenly saints described in Revelation. They clearly are not asleep or unconscious.

The problem is that "soul sleep" advocates take the FIGURATIVE language of "sleep" as applied to dead people LITERALLY, when it is solely phenomenological language, describing things according to how they APPEAR to US - eg: "The sun is setting."

[datnyone]

*Catholics worship many gods..saints/mary/priests/pope­s..show me in the Bible where believers prayed to those who have died in the faith..moses? David? it cant be found its not Biblical but pagan

I live in NYC and see catholica praying to about 5 "Jesus'" the Baby Jeus, heart of Jesus..the one on the cross etc..they are confused aboutt hereal JESUS CHRIST..

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." -1st John 5:21

"Ye worship ye know not what..." -John 4:22

[Rebelexterminator]

In addition, sacraficing, became irrelivant with the sacrafice of Jesus. He is our intermediary, the only one who can play that role. No being, besides him, who lived, or is living can play that role. Saints were humans, who have sinned, just as all of us, they are not worthy intermediaries, only Jesus is. The term saint may be in the Bible, but it has been tagged on people by the catholic church, not by God, it has been given its meaning by the catholic church, not by God.

[paleocrat]

We believe that Jesus, and he alone, is the mediator of redemption between God and man. This does not mean that he doesn't use others in other areas such as the sacraments, prayer, or reconciliation.

I have no comment on the saint issue. I think your understanding of the Catholic Church (and the Scripture) needs much more help than a simple post here can offer.

[pjos111]

I used to be catholic and it took me 36 years to see the truth about the catholic faith or should I say Man made doctrines.

[paleocrat]

I used to be a Protestant pastor and it took me 28 years to figure out that protestant religious were heretical, blasphemous, and not part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

[B0thergirl]

If it was the work of the Holy Spirit that you found the way to the Roman Catholic Church then there was a purpose for that. Not that is is the end of your journey. If it was through human knowledge alone be aware you may have been deceived. I wish you the best and am praying for you and all of us who love the Lord.

[B0thergirl]

It is part of the catholic church (Universal church of believers in Jesus Christ) but just not The Roman Catholic church. We are given our faith by God. The Holy Spirit guides us. We can not come to the Lord by our own choice. Nothing happens outside the will of God. Every thing and person has a purpose according to the will of God.

[Rebelexterminator]

What about the catholic church changing the sabbath day from saturday to sunday? And the catholic church is not "the" church, paul was not "the" first pope of "the" church,not by Gods authority, only by the "authority" of the catholic church itself.

By whos authority is the catholic church Gods church except by its own? The catholic church has no authority to forgive sins, sins are between us and God, not between us, the priest, and God.

[paleocrat]

The Christian practice of celebrating the Lord's Day (Sunday) has its roots in the first century and was practiced by those who knew, learned, and were appointed as leaders in the Church by the apostles themselves. There was never an outcry over this. No sector of Christianity every got ticked off and said, "No, Jesus or the apostles never wanted this!" This is telling...

[paleocrat]

Well, we believe that it is "the Church" and that She alone has rights to that sacred title. Protestant congregations are not churches, nor are they part of the Church.

[paleocrat]

Who said Paul was the first Pope? Confession, as I have feebly demonstrated, is not only Biblical but historically apostolic.

[B0thergirl]

True, confession is required because holding on to spiritual condemnation from knowledge of sin stands in the way of spiritual closeness to God. Confession is for our sake not for Gods. Same for prayer. We can only be convicted of sins of which we have knowledge.

[B0thergirl]

The papacy came from the government of Rome as a way to unite and subjugate the country. It was purely political It had nothing to do with Jesus' plan to preach tie Gospel to all creatures. The Apostles were to scatter and pass the torch to everyone.

[Muzaloth]

regarding prayers of the saints on earth offered up by the elders in heaven, I have to agree with you, at least on this point.. how would they have them to offer up if they were not given to them, it's a strong argument to your credit and sheds light on this verse which was previously a mystery to me..

[tizzidale]

Well, it seems the debate is ended :)

[Pomosapien]

Catholicism, like most of Protestanism, is dependent upon the Old Testament/Jewish structure for its survival, which explains their adherence to supposed positions of authority.

[tizzidale]

We're not dependent upon "supposed" positions of authority but upon what Christ actually established. The apostles had the *authority* to determine how to treat the Gentile Christians, for example. "For the son of man is as a man who takes a journey, and gives *authority* to his servants."

[B0thergirl]

We were all meant to be made Apostles "messengers" of Christ. The Catholic Church usurped the authority Christ gave to all the (Church) believers. [Church mean circle of believers.]

[paleocrat]

They don't "need" them. All the verses indicate is that they had received them and that they were presenting them to God.

[paleocrat]

Sure it makes the garment special. That is why the people brought handkercheifs and aprons from the apostles to the sick and the possessed. If it was just faith, then why were objects brought to them?

[B0thergirl]

It wasn't the garment that was powerful it was the faith of those who reached out to touch it that was powerful. It wasn't the oil the priest put on my forehead that healed my knees it was my obedience to and faith in the direction of the Holy spirit. Within 5 minutes I had no more crippling pain.

[Pomosapien]

In Matthew 16:19, Jesus declared to all (i.e., please notice that the Greek word for "you" is PLURAL) that while His Church will be built by Him, it will include those, like Peter, who receives the revelation of who Christ is. Amazingly, this inclusion includes the benefit of this local expression of community, His Body, the awesome responsibility of "binding and loosing," which is a corporate responsibility...not the sole discretion of a flawed man sitting on a throne of man, playing God.

[paleocrat]

You are making an either/or out of a both/and. Peter was given the keys. This was singular. Yet Jesus uses the plural when talking about binding and loosing. This goes to show that there was both a unique function for Peter (alone) as well as for the apostolic college as a group. This is Catholic ecclesiology! What is absent from the text is any indication that this was given to the "whole" people of God. That is absurd.

[Pomosapien]

Wrong again. The Greek word for "you" is PLURAL, not singular.

But keep on believing what you've been taught and hopefully Peter will meet you in heaven and welcome you in.

It's amazing, though, how Paul didn't place ANY weight in Peter or his supposed "position" as Christ's favorite. I wonder if Paul is "outside the catholic church" on that one.

[tizzidale]

In Matthew 16:9, in conferring the keys, the "you" is singular. Where are you getting this misinformation?

[Pomosapien]

It was not Peter who came up with the revelation but God. Jesus referred to Peter as a "rock" (Greek word for "pebble") and to HIMSELF as a "rock" (Greek word for a large, bedrock) upon which He will build His Church. It takes a great imagination to stretch Jesus' words to even imply that Peter, alone, would be the architect of the Church.

[paleocrat]

This is silly. The only reason Matthew used the word Petros was to keep the masculine significance of the name. Was Christ's intention to call him pebble? No. For starters, he did not speak to him in Greek. He spoke to him in aramaic, as we see by Peter being refered to as Cephas, or Kepha, which means "massive stone." Hmm... sounds familiar.

[Pomosapien]

And where do you think Jesus got the name "Cephas" or "Peter?" Jesus gave him that name which means "little stone."

Don't become offended by the facts, just accept them.

[paleocrat]

Cephas does not mean little stone. It is transliterated from Kepha which means "massive stone." The word "evna" means little pebble. Furthermore, if the translator wanted to indicate that Peter was a small stone, he would have used the word "lithos" rather than "petros." In the end, you argument falls on its face.

[zodigital]

Can you provide us with the references for this? I've been checking Strong's Concordance online, and it only says: 4074. Petros pet'-ros apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock. Compare 2786.

[B0thergirl]

I had time to study. Jesus did call Peter Stone/Rock. Later he made that clearer by saying Peter was a stumbling stone. If Peter betrayed/denied Christ 3 times to save his own life. Peter was the weakest among the Apostles next to Judas. Jesus chastised Peter more than once. Christ had to die to build his church so backhandedly Peter had a lot to do with it. Peter was also a rock because he was slow to convert.

[B0thergirl]

Sorry for the typos.

[Pomosapien]

The Word of God, like God Himself, NEVER changes. And yet, with each successive pope and the power which he yields, the rules seem to change. To address "paleocrat's" (What's with the "CRAT?" Political maybe?) remarks about the "keys of the kingdom" being given to Peter, as if to signify some sort of transfer of power, all paleo needs to do is to read the verse in CONTEXT and reference it in the Greek.

[paleocrat]

I have read the verse in context, and will show this below. And yes, the "crat" is political. It means "Ancient (or old) Rule (or Law)."

[CajunPunk]

Thanks for your reply.