Mishkutenok & Dmitriev versus Gordeeva & Grinkov

[Lena14121]

Я абсолютно согласна, что Гордеева и Гриньков были лучшими и в Калгари, и в Лиллехаммере. У них конечно замечаются небольшие ошибки, но зато они более артистичны и техничны. По этим критериям Мишкутенок и Дмитриев им проигрывают.

[noevoe978]

(Cont)

Lastly, since when did "passion" become the defining factor on who should win competitions? Last time I checked, technique and artistry were both important. Neither should get in the WAY of the other. In M&Ds case, I believe the artistry did get in the way. And while it made for a passionate performance, I would argue that it made for a messy one, technically, as well.

Both programs were amazing, but in the end, G&G's performance was (bare facts) technically harder, and skated clean.

[noevoe978]

I'm sick of seeing comments that say M&D had more passion. Why is that? Because they swung their arms around willy nilly? That's not how I equate passion.

Their choreography was DISTRACTING to a point where it was messy and, at that point, passion should not be rewarded. G&G, on the other hand, WERE passionate - IMO - but they remained poised and clean. And people keep pointing out how "noticeable" G&G's mistakes were. I'd argue they were so apparent because of how clean they skated otherwise.

[naialah]

contano l eleganza e la passione. non cado nel tranello con chi fa delle pose per sbalordire il pubblico. insomma m & d non li trovo cosi eleganti sono un po pesanti

[kookykrumbs]

M&D's lifts didn't look so good. It looked like it took a lot of effort for them. Either Natalia was too heavy, or Artur was not very strong.

[bagman817]

My god, man, it was 1994 and one of the skaters is dead. Maybe they shouldn't have won, who cares at this point?

[officeaddict33]

@bagman817 - I think the point is to compare different versions of greatness.  Both pairs will godown in history as great.

[oravaskvirel]

"under the present scoring system GG would lose..." Based on the 2011 EC example, this statement is more than questionable. S&S made several minor mistakes and missed one whole element but won. They did have several deductions but their SP and the quality of other elements and skating in general outweighted those of K&S.

[oravaskvirel]

I long ago kind of stopped arguing, yet can't keep from yet another comment. What really amazes me is the ever lasting comments regarding the unfairness and favoritism of judges. Come on, guys. How one could bribe 8 out of 9 judges!In 2002, just one bribed judge was enough for a huge scandal. If talking about favoritism, then it might be fair to blame the Belorussian judge who was the only one to place MD first allegedly because Natalia was from Belorussia.

[lizzydarcy72]

M & D will always be the Olympic champions for me. G & G were favored because skating officials wanted to keep the fairy tale of the photogenic couple in love who always wins the gold. They were a great pair, but I got sick of hearing how perfect and beautiful they were. I half expected EG was going to be pushed on me again when she took up with IK.

[lastsundaydrive]

"Part III There was a lot of cross-overs from element to element." if not cross overs then what do you want them to do? FLY?

"program was lacking personality and character" Obviously you've not done your research.

Also ice-katers are always flexible but all those awkward kicks and leg-lifts just show case ugly crotch. Not to mention M&D's pair spin where he put his leg over her.. just messy, cheap trick.

[gusieczka]

@lastsundaydrive

'"program was lacking personality and character" Obviously you've not done your research.'

Research?? Do I need to do a research to find a program interesting/captivating? I wrote that it is a matter of taste, I do not understand your angry tone about my opinion.

[gusieczka]

@lastsundaydrive

'Also ice-katers are always flexible but all those awkward kicks and leg-lifts just show case ugly crotch. '

Yes, it happens that when skaters try to contort their bodies, it often results in an ugly position. Yet, this is not the case of Nathalia. She was very flexible, yet she always managed to hit a beautiful position.

'Not to mention M&D's pair spin where he put his leg over her.. '

Just paraphrasing you: what did you want him to do? FLY?

[gusieczka]

@lastsundaydrive

'There was a lot of cross-overs from element to element." if not cross overs then what do you want them to do? FLY?'

Have you heard of transitions??

[gusieczka]

PART I

This 'comparison' is very one-sided and biased. First, the SP - G&G had a big mistake in spins. M&D clean. In LP - again, sbs unsynchronized (and there is so much raving about their perfect unison), wobble and unsynchro in jump sequence. Singled salchow. No triple side by side jump. M&D mistakes: slight wobble on step sequence (recovered very well by him, in character of the music), his 'stops' at the throw jumps, and I am not sure about the two-foot landing on 2A.

[gusieczka]

PART II

Yet, it’s less mistakes that 'weigh' less and they were not disturbing the program as much as G&G mistakes.Even if G&G had better flow,lines and lifts,it shouldnt make up in marks for numerous mistakes they made.Especially that MD were not novice junior skaters that would only stroke slowly from one board to another.And they had strong sides too-her flexibility that she WAS ABLE to use in the program.Katia maybe was flexible, but obviously she wasnt able to incorporate that in the skate

[gusieczka]

PART III

Additionally M&D had original moves that often stem from Natalia’s flexibility and Arthur’s creativity and personality. And synchronization! Wow, that was perfect unison! Finally, the least important part (since it is a matter of taste) G&G program, although pretty and elegant, was lacking personality and character. There was a lot of cross-overs from element to element. All in all, M&D were clear winners that night.

[LLLLutz]

@wwDevichan

Mishkutenok&Dmitriev won in 1992 with mistakes since there was no one better - those who skated cleaner, weren't at the same level in the presentation .

In 1994 it wasn't so - both Gordeeva & Grinkov and Mishkutenok & Dmitriev were equally great artistically, each pair in their own way, but M&D also skated cleaner.

[Fabstaire]

@LLLLutz umm no they are bit equal artistically; technically and artistically G&G have no equal. Did they make a few minor mistakes, yes, but i'd rather watch their glorioius elegant Moonlight than that over emoted all over the place badly costumed M&D circus show

[LLLLutz]

@Fabstaire

It's up to your personal taste. G&G had an advantage at basic skating- flow and edging, as well as their lines were more polished. M&D had far more innovative and difficult choreography on their side, while G&G program was fairly empty between the elements and kind of old-fashioned. What do you prefer- is only a matter of taste.

[signorinakitty]

mi dispiace ma non mi piace il gioco del confronto e trovo ki ha caricato il video di parte. G&G sono sempre splendidi e raffinati, leggeri e delicati ma li ho sempre trovati ripetitivi M&D hanno sperimentato si sono cimentati con grandi novità e alle olimpiadi la loro potenza e drammaticità, il loro sincronismo merita di essere premiato, men3 ho trovato giusta la loro vittoria agli europei dove sono stati paradisiaci, in questa gara meritavano il terzo posto

[kookykrumbs]

Gordeeva and Grinkov were better looking. So there.

[BigdealXXIII]

These 2 pairs belong to the best 4 ever in the History in ANY book (together with the Protapopovs and Shen-Zhao in my opinion).

It is just an unfortunate thing they had to compete each other.

G-G was the more elegant "leading role models" like Pamina-Tamino in the "Zauberflöte. M-D robbed everybody's heart with their passion and down-to-earth style Á la Papagena-Papageno.

[artlife1010]

I agree. Mishkutenok & Dmitriev deserved first; Brasseur & Eisler second, and G&G third. But as we all know, the placements are "predfetermined", i.e., FIXED.

[signorinakitty]

@artlife1010

i agree whit you!

[nephertiti77]

@SvetlanaMillionaya Hi, It's called "The a la menthe". And, ok i'll think about S&P and B&S video :)

[oravaskvirel]

That would be great!!! We all are wating!

[SvetlanaMillionaya]

Wow I can't believe Moskvina said something so wide off the mark (that "G&G will not mark an era")!! She is usually so sharp! Great vid, I always wondered about this result, it's great to see solid evidence to back it up. I like M&D lots too, but I do take issue when people say they expressed music better/more passionately, the styles were different that's all. More drama doesn't necessarily mean better, one subtle gesture can say so much.

[DarcyTV1]

I definitely thought that Mishkutenok & Dmitriev deserved the gold that year. But then, for some reason, I often think the silver skate is the better one.

[nephertiti77]

Well, the comparison between G&G and M&D has upset quite a few people. Therefore I think I'll pass on this one.

[mom232000]

thank you for the comparison. you explained the reasons why the judges would have given G & G higher marks. i can definitely see how easy they make skating look. they make is look very easy.

[nephertiti77]

I honestly blame moskovina for lack of foresight. She had to include more difficult elements. My favourite part in M&D program was at the end, when Arthur open his "heart" and then jumps twist and turn to catch Natalia. simply beautiful

[beckylink]

Ekaterina was a true beauty which may have swayed people in her favor. ;) If you got it, USE it!! hehe

I do want to say that I was soooooo sad when Sergei died. That was heartbreaking. too young. too talented. too nice. too much in love to be lost... A great loss felt by all fans of beautiful skating..

[beckylink]

Wow I tried to post and it got lost...annoying!!!

I said that I am sure you're right about most of what you say. And I can appreciate the beauty and the oneness of G&G. Your tributes to Sergei are touching and heartfelt and well deserved. I still believe that M&D took skating to another level artistically because they could actually make me CRY from the sheer beauty and passion..! Dmitriev was indeed the standout in a sense but M w her flexibility and beauty, held her own.

[nephertiti77]

To be honest with you, I think that the judges have been quite unfair with them in so mamy occasions. And their skating will never be replaced.

[beckylink]

Well it's obvious who YOU favor (are obsessed with..!).

Yes there are a lot of technicalities that G&G did very well and they were elegant and fine.

But the passion and beauty was on the side of M&D and everybody knew it in the stands. People whether judges or NOT, can't be easily fooled or moved to ovation.

M&D were the best pairs skaters ever, as they truly tell a story every time they are on the ice, and they MOVE people...to chills, to tears. It is way beyond skating w them; it is art.

[nephertiti77]

Hi Becky, you got me there :)

M&D skated the performance of their life with this program. And they deserved the standing ovation because they moved everybody with this performance, and this is a gold medal performance. I think the problem lies on the fact that Moskovina didn't include as many difficult element as Zoueva did for G&G.

[pick5667]

So well people when you post your comments make sure you check HOW TO WRITE RUSSIANS LAST NAMES- Moskvina! NOT MOSKOVINA!!! she does not have any relation to MOSCOW city!!!!

[xtracex77]

I love both pairs, but MD just had that passion behind them on this night. Their performance was unbelievable. They should have won.

[1malmis]

Geez, get lives!

[jerrm4]

Wow, you really think it only happen in 2002. It been going on way longer than that. They only got caught in 2002.

[stanhope84]

@jerrm4

Exactly, the judges got caught in 2002 and that is why the scoring system changed. You posted that the scoring system changed because of the 1990 worlds competition. This is not correct.

[Krawi6]

They were both very good, but on this occasion that evening M&D were the better pair. More passion, more art and the public in the hall thought so too.

[jerrm4]

Are you kidding, G&G did NOT win fairly and this is not the first time. Take a look at 1990 worlds. I was there and everybody was talking about the judging was so unfair. It's obvious that judges were being bride. That's why the scoring system changed. My opinion, The wrong team won.

[drewson88]

G&G won fair & square!! Thats my opinion!! M&D are excellent skaters as well...but clearly G&G are the superior of the 2!!

[jerrm4]

This was the good old days when judges were being bride and the out come was already known before anybody skated. The new scoring system would put M&D ahead of G&G.

G&G is overrated. Of course it's easier to lift and throw a 80 pound woman. Sergei was a better and higher level skater than his wife and it shows. Another overrated skater is Kristi Y. Midori skates faster, stronger and her jumps were a whole lot higher than Kristi. Again, in the new scoring system Midori would have won.

[jerrm4]

Are you kidding? Do you see her using the wrong edge when she jumps. Also their lifts were not as creative as M&D. Her death spiral is weak. Tell me what G&G signature move is? Because they don't have one!!!!!

[stanhope84]

@jerrm4

Their split triple twist, to name one. Also, you don't explain why G&G's death spiral is weak. Here is why it is strong: in both the back outside and forward inside, her back is well-arched, he is in a low pivot, and they flow in and out with great speed. Those are all the qualities of a good death spiral. If you don't like G&G's style, fine. But you obviously don't know skating technique if you think G&G's death spiral is weak.

[dylanvalente]

I think it's clear M&D outskated G&G both technically and artistically. G&G made two mistakes (very minor) while M&D made no obvious mistakes (at one point Artur seemed to slip just a bit on the footwork, but you can't tell if it's a mistake). M&D were so passionate and dramatic. If both teams skated flawlessly, I could see there being a debate. But I think it came down to who skated first. It might have been different if M&D had skated after G&G.

[gandy74]

I remember this evening very vividly....the Lillehammer spectators were actually HOWLING in excitement and approval toward the conclusion of M&D's performance. I've NEVER heard a reaction like that for ANY skating performance,let alone pairs.

M&D should have taken Gold that night..I know it... you know it... the whole world knew it.

[beckylink]

I agree gandy, this was a night I'll never forget. M&D were so rousing and emotional and beautiful...they should have won. Everybody knew it except the lame judges who wanted it to be GG. Nothing against them as they were very special too. But not as passionate. M&D brought tears to my eyes it was so beautiful.. the only other time that happened was Oksana's SP (black swan) and in the exhibition. (white; Swan Lake) What a special time for skating... I miss those days.. saw the tour..AMAZING!

[nephertiti77]

The judges have way too much power in this sport. Judges have indeed a trained eye. But, by the way judges thought back then, it's very likely that M&D had created doubs in the judges minds, by missing a lift in their SP just a month before the Oly, at Euros, and then, as per other sources, they minght have confirmed the second place by missing the lift of their SP, during practise time. I'm talking about that unfortunate lift were poor Natalia hit the ice very hard.

[TUMuenchen]

nephertiti77, thank you for this video. I enjoyed it.

[mamadoenut]

judges couldn't see beyond the physical beauty of G&G

[MelleAndKev]

I like the footage that you have of G&Gs split triple twist from Calgary... it's at a different camera angle than the footage that they usually show of that program.

[bunnyrabbit9999]

I really appreciate this video and the debate at hand. If there ever was an Olympics where two golds should have been awarded this one is the one. While I adore G&G and believe they were technically superior, I believe that M&D were artistically superior. But really, I don't think there is anyone who would wish ill will on G&G--they were universally cherished. Someone had to win and it was a great, memorable, well-fought battle for the ages.

[mfelix87]

what is the name of this song? it's been stuck in my head since i first saw this video!

[nephertiti77]

Hi,

the song is called "the a' la menthe".

[nephertiti77]

Hi everyone, just to let you know that although it looks like we have two libralady1010, the one pro G&G it's spelt with capital "i", and should not be confused with libralady1010 who favours M&D. if you want to know who is who, just click on their usernames. And pls stop flagging down libralady1010 pro M&D. thank you

[Apollo2077]

Hi liberlady1010 - Nephertiti's reputation is not on the line in this instant as it's not her problem if someone has chosen to have a user name similar to yours - there are loads of usernames which are similar on youtube, and indeed all over the internet. I wouldn't worry about what others write. As nephertiti said above, if they click on each profile, they will see it's a different account. If you happen to get negative messages regarding someone else's comments, just explain that it's not you.

[libralady1010]

Getting to you is it " Thing?" A clown...you can join the circus. 6 redflags in 13 minutes. That's close to a record even for your pitiful person.

[oravaskvirel]

Piccolopiero, I totally back up with you on this matter. Such things are unacceptable. Whoever has hacked Libralady's account must watch this video once again to remember that "Our honor is our honesty" (Sergey Grinkov)

[LovelySouthStar]

I am visiting my parents. My Mother did NOT write those glowing posts of G&G.

All of you-ok,cl-u like them. she respts

them,likes M&D better.

[nephertiti77]

libra, which one are the post you didn't write?

[nephertiti77]

Hi Libra, and thank you for your nice comments. I must say that yesterday I couldn't post a comment with the full name of TA1996, this system must have very powerful filters.

[libralady1010]

Please everyone...I am surprised and sad at what happened to our yt friend and all the videos a few days ago. Think everyone knows whom I am speaking of. I hope this comes to a satisfactory resolution very soon. He is a true fan of Skating w/an awesome collection. Why the powers that be are suddenly doing this-don't know. He only does this strictly as a fan of Skating. Some prefer chocolate,some vanilla.

[nephertiti77]

Hi,

I'm actually chatting with him right now. I'm very upset about it myself!!!!

[nephertiti77]

and by the way, he thanx everyone for the good thoughts

[Piccolopiero]

Hatula, they are not your favourite skaters, ok. But we are talking about Lillehammer, and Nephertiti has given a CLEAR technical analysis of the two programs, and you should just bow to the facts: they deserved the gold medal.

[nephertiti77]

M&D did a simple sit spin into a standing up spin. G&G did a flying camels into a back sit spins into a single loop into a sit position-back sit spins for a total of 15 rotations against the 9 of M&D. They lost and regain the unison only on the last few rotations, coming out of it in perfect unison.

[nephertiti77]

Well, G&G didnt really have a simple step sequence. It was done by holding hands and a great speed which meant that if one of them tripped on the ice, the other one would be dragged down as well.

[nephertiti77]

hatula87 G&G had convinced the word that they were great. I merely put that on a video montage.

But unfortunately, to highlight their greatness 10 minutes are not enough...

[chicvirgo86]

THAT WAS FANTASTIC!!!!!! how did you get such awesome footage??

[nephertiti77]

Lots of research my friend :)

[oravaskvirel]

Actually, this video has helped me to spot same "trademark" inferiority skating with all Moskvina's students: even Berezhnaya&Sikharulidze who were claimed to be "a perfect blend of G&G and M&D" had same problems with spirals, stopping before throws and probably something else.

[hatula87]

B&S had the best spirals ever among pairs, better than G&G and they had the best entry into throws- first they did a perfect pair spiral all rink lenght and without losing ANY speed they immidiately entered the throw. No other pair was/is able of performing such a move.

[libralady1010]

I have to say that split position in the air was not very attractive. Zhuk also coached Stanislav Leonivich who had a tiny partner @ the 1980 Games. He was G&G's first coach. I know he was in Cinncinati w/them in 1987 as I saw them at the Skaters' Market and in Halifax in 1990.

[oravaskvirel]

May I correct you? Stanislav Leonovich was G&G's second coach. Zhuk was first. They left him for Leonovich because of the difficult personality and drinking habits of Zhuk...

[libralady1010]

I mis-spoke. Zhuk was Leonovich's coach while he was skating. I know Zhuk was Rodnina's coach for a time until she/they left him for Tarasova before the 1976 Olympics. You have to understand:-we had very limited information for a long time. The federations-like federations all over the world, only tell what they want you to know.

[libralady1010]

Kaz never had the flexibility of Natalia. She was limber-no argument there but Natalia was in a class by herself when it came to flexiblity.

[oravaskvirel]

Jesus, thanks god there was somebody who took his/her time to make this video. Discussions are all well and good but now it is so clear. A mere textbook of figure skating. And in a perfect quality. Thank you!!!