No longer an issue of morals

[AllTheLoveGoneBlack]

I agree with you 100%.

[cannibalcountry]

I think a great model is the Swedish model. I have friends in Sweden and they live in an area where prostitution was a HUGE problem and it brought all kinds of drugs as well. When they made BUYING prostitutes illegal but decriminalized prostitution - it cleaned up the problem A LOT. Some women who still work as prostitutes in Sweden have actually complained about not having enough business. They might think that's a problem but I think it's a good thing.

[Orkaney]

In Norway the government recently made buying sexual services a crime. Our otherwise understaffed police force occasionally drives around fining buyers of street prostitutes. Sex sales are only slightly reduced because of this.

If you want to stop prostitution you need to understand the market. Some people want unconditional sex, some people need money. Of course, there are plenty of other reasons.

[cannibalcountry]

In Sweden - the same model actually did wonders. I think the best policy is cracking down on the demand. Because it's the demand that is a problem. In Amsterdam and Las Vegas - sex trafficking and underage/child prostitution have steadily risen since prostitution was legalized.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Liek you said "trafficking underage/child prostitution"

Not Adult prostitution. The connection is one of crime, and it's unfair of you to cconnect the two.

One is about the legal consent of adults, the other is about abuse and rape of minors

[cannibalcountry]

Why is it unfair to connect the two? Clearly - places where it's legal to buy prostitutes still, child prostitution, sex trafficking demand is increased. Maybe because those places attract all the perverts?

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Erm but you chose places where they Child prostitution is illegal. And has nothing to do wit constential adult pornorgahpy or prostitition.

I am not going to get into a slippery slope argument with you over the difference between consent and abuse and why one should be legal and the other should be a crime. Work it out for yourself

[cannibalcountry]

SO are you claiming that if we legalize child prostitution it will give children more protection?

[AsheIsTheRaven]

I'lll say this one more time

You know my answer as I made it clear

Conseting adult prostition, legal, yes

Child prostitution, no

and I have already given the reasons why over and over

We are done. You are too stupid to comprehend even the simplest of things

[cannibalcountry]

Nice - calling people stupid makes you win.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

No people being stupid makes me win when they can't figure out the obvious

[cannibalcountry]

You are claiming that if we legalize prostitution of adult women - than it will erase all of the harms within it but clearly that didn't happen in Amsterdam and now it's like a hub for adult women being sex trafficked.

[cannibalcountry]

The problem is whether or not people can identify who is consenting and who isn't. Can you tell by looking in a window in the Red Light district who chose to be there and who didn't?

[Orkaney]

This model is copied from Sweden, yet it's only policed occasionally, our police force is too far stretched as it is. There's a perfectly good law concerning pimps but it's never used. Why shoud this law be any better?

If prostitution and drugs were taken seriously in this country and dealt with humanely it wouldn't have been a problem at all. Instead we have politicians saying "Look, we're doing something politically correct!". What a waste of oxygen...

[AsheIsTheRaven]

I am very impressed that you have taken a step beyond the moral issue. I don't agree with you on the moral issue, but it takes a great deal of courage to look beyond the moral issue to a realistic issue.

May I ask one thing though, I was an escort in my younger days, and whilst I didn't have paid sex with my clients, I am of no illusion that was the intent of my female clients. Maybe it was prostitution to a certain degree, but I in no way felt used

[AsheIsTheRaven]

when you make something illegal, people will break the law. When the law is broken there is no rule, regulation or even safety in place to help anyone. It creates the victim.

When you legalize Prostitution you take away the victim, you take away the abuse and you take away the need to break rules, laws and increase the ability to provide protection and safety of all involved.

Hasn't it occurred to you that because it's illegal is the main reason why it's open to exploitation?

[cannibalcountry]

That isn't true at all. In Las Vegas and in Amsterdam - child/underage prostitution has been rising. In Amsterdam the numbers went from 5,000 underage prostitutes to 15,000 in only five years. Also - sex trafficking is a HUGE problem in Amsterdam. Many of the women working in Red Light district were trafficked. Also - in vegas - we see the same problem of child/underage prostitutes being a big problem. Legalizing prostitution only protects adult women a little.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Wow, where the hell do you get these "statistics"

Only protects them a little? Okay first of all your Amsterdam figures are way off. Second of all Prostitution is still a grey legal area in Las Vargas, partically certain areas. Third of all, explain that to the Higly successful, legal and well look after sex industry in Australia.

Only protects women a little my ass. I am getting fed up with people who hate something to the point that they

a: Don't think

b: Believe what they want to hear

[cannibalcountry]

I've actually researched this extensively.

[cannibalcountry]

You said: "When you legalize Prostitution you take away the victim"

The way I see it - legalizing prostitution seems to make it easier for people to victimize children and women who were sex trafficked (it isn't only children who are sex trafficked - think before you speak).

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Wow, talk about the twisting of words

If you have no common sense to know the difference between consential adults who know what they are getting into, and innocent children who are open to abuse and why one shoudl be a crime and why the other doesn't need to be, then this conversation is over. I have no time for idiots who refuse to even comprehend the obvious

[cannibalcountry]

YOU DID NOT SPECIFY ADULTS.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Did I need to?

Are you so stupid as to have every little word spelled out for you? Do I have to give you a lecture word for word about he difference between killing in a war and murder?

You're just trying to paint a picture of me, but too colour blind to even get that right

[cannibalcountry]

I think that if legalizing prostitution for adult women increases the demand for prostitution of children and trafficked women - than it is NOT the route to take. That's my opinion. I stand by it strongly and firmly. And guess what? I think that 90% of the women prostituting aren't consenting to it. Which includes if they started prostituting as minors - as it seems MOST do.

In the US - the average age for someone to start prostituting is 13.

[cannibalcountry]

And YES, you should specify because not only women and not only consenting adults are prostituted.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Then you are an idiot

[cannibalcountry]

How does legalizing prostitution protect ADULT women from being trafficked into areas where it is legalized?

[cannibalcountry]

I keep trying to send you the links but I think they have them disabled. But I have legit sources for all of my numbers. So seriously - don't mock me.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

I mock someone who cannot tell the difference between consent and abuse.

Child rape and legal prostitution for consenting adults has no connection

[cannibalcountry]

Australia isn't much better.

[AsheIsTheRaven]

And finally, this issue has NOTHING to do with the child porn industry, Which IS A DIFFERENT SUBJECT ALTOGETHER

This topic is about the legal industry of consenting adults.

I hear the same argument from the anti gay camp, largely because they want there to be a connection

[cannibalcountry]

I'm not anti-gay. WTF?

[AsheIsTheRaven]

No but you are using their aurgiments

[cannibalcountry]

WTF? NOPE! I'm looking at how legalizing prostitution under different models and how they have helped or not helped. Guess what model has worked the best? The swedish one (in terms of bringing down ADULT AND CHILD exploitation).

[cannibalcountry]

Also - I have not said one thing against the "morality" of prostituting. I'm looking at it from a practical sense - and including children and trafficked women in it... Clearly you'd rather close your eyes to THEIR problems.

[stealthbadger]

Beautifully stated. We live in the real world, and we need to address the suffering that we can see and affect, not try and impose an ideal that some people might not even want.

Whether or not prostitution is or is not pure exploitation is irrelevant. End the conditions that make prostitution a necessity, coerced condition, or trap, and let it exist or whither away as it will.

Making it illegal and not protecting sex workers as human beings only ensures that it will be exploitation.

[StanMarsh1]

I very much agree with you. Morality doesn't even factor in it for me, I don't like prostitution and would never visit one, but legalising it, it seems to me, will make the women safer, and that's all I care about.

I'm also with you in that my opinion on this can be changed, but I haven't heard any better alternatives.

[nelliediddle]

I agree with your video 100%

Amhemsley I'd love to see where you get your information ( thats not me being sarcastic I truly am interested.)

I am completely against the subjugation of humans, but the fact is helping the people who are actually in the situation is alway more important to me, regardless of my philosophical/theological( or the lack there of)/political views

[YogiToad]

She will see this,but I wanted to chime in and have you hear it nellliddiddle......prostitutio­n is not a matter of morality.Not a matter of law,but a matter of love. If women were loved enough,their would not be a need for prostitution,or the use of woman for sex objects. If a man loves a woman,she will never be looked upon as a sex object.If man loved woman,then there would be no prostitutes. It's a lack of love in humanity,and prostitution reflects this.

[nelliediddle]

OK but how does that help the PEOPLE ( becuase women are not the only ones in this profession) who are already trapped in this world?

[YogiToad]

It's a subjective perception nelliediddle, what is the difference between a man that loves you and one that does not? Therein lies the answer.

[GizzardTheWizard]

But you're not helping ANYONE by saying that! This is not a discussion on why prostitution happens or some vague subjective concept of love, this is a discussion on how we can help people who are being exploited.

[nelliediddle]

I Understand it's subjective, thats actually kind of my point. You say love, another says economics, another talks about political views. BUT how does that help the PEOPLE who are already trapped in this world?

it feels a little like "just say no."

but thats my opinion

[amhemsley]

Legalised prostitution does not help prostitutes. Look at Germany, they legalised it in 2002 and it has lead to massive exploitation and abuse. So much so they are fighting to reverse the laws.

On the other hand Sweden which has some of the strictest laws against prostitution has improved the situation.

The countries with legal prostitution have the highest rates of human trafficking for sex work, the highest rates of drug addiction. Legal prostitution hurts these people more.

[GizzardTheWizard]

Do you have links? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see how that works out.

[amhemsley]

I'll send a PM.

[stealthbadger]

If I'm remembering correctly, a great deal of Germany's problem is that even though it's legalized, the law enforcement framework to protect the workers is not there the same way that it is for machinists or nurses. Legalizing it without also legitimizing the workers as workers does not help.

[amhemsley]

Actually the big part of Germany's problem is how much human trafficking has increased in order to fill the market.

[stealthbadger]

Except for the small part of those who are trafficked not being protected by labor laws, and the social stigma attached to the profession. It's far more complicated and unpleasant than you make it appear.

[amhemsley]

So your solution is to legitimise the exploitation?

As I pointed out Sweden has massively strict laws against prostitution and has reduced the human trafficking problem, while Germany's legalisation has just increased it.

Your solution just increases the amount of suffering.

[stealthbadger]

You're not reading.

My solution is to extend worker protection laws and legal/social benefits to those workers. Legitimize them and give them equal access to the enforcement mechanisms of the law, and make sure that the legal system doesn't continue its selective enforcement of what rights sex workers DO have.

The problem is not the sex workers, it's the people who abuse them - and the ones who stand aside and let the abuse happen.

[amhemsley]

Your solution does not work. It's been tried and resulted in more exploitation.

You are standing aside and letting the abuse happen if you think legalisation is appropriate.

[stealthbadger]

You're deluded if you think selective enforcement isn't a problem, the same way it's a problem in minority communities the world over - crimes against those outside of the mainstream are seen as less important than crimes against "upstanding citizens," and this perpetuates exploitation.

It in no way is standing aside if you help people out of situations where they can't make choices.

[amhemsley]

You aren't helping them out, your damning more to the same problem with legalisation. Look at Germany and how much of a problem it caused.

[stealthbadger]

You're arguing in circles in order to avoid counter-arguments, which could mean any one of a few things: you have nothing else to contribute, you're refusing to think outside of your preconceptions, or you're stringing me along. What arguing in circles doesn't do is help people who are suffering; it only helps the speaker cling to a feeling of righteousness that is undeserved.

I understand your passion, but passion needs to translate to real assistance or it is meaningless.

[amhemsley]

Because you refuse to acknowledge how legalisation has failed over and over. You have no evidence to back up your claim.

[stealthbadger]

Actually, I do. The largest example of this is that over half of the current sex workers are either not German citizens, or over 18, as required by law, apparently because it's not an enforcement priority compared to other types of crime. This depresses the wages of the legal workers as well as makes it dangerous for them to organize for their working conditions. (cont)

[stealthbadger]

Also, the recent short-lived unemployment insurance scandal equating prostitution with any other low-wage job (which is a farce, since its risks are much greater) underscores this same problem - prostitutes are not seen as "deserving" protection by the government when compared with "normal" citizens, which perpetuates the problem.

I'm very carefully looking at the evidence. I suggest you do the same.