Stephen Fry & Christopher Hitchens - Blasphemy

[bsktool]

@megamarsvin

#4 likely and all bets are off concerninghow planet earth got populated and how long it took.

Not only that. We’d need to start thinking about a possible purpose in our existence.

Uhoh!

[bsktool]

@megamarsvin

#3 mainstream religion are probably wrong. If anything, for most unbelievers, they are most likely one of the main reasons for rejecting the idea of God.

But we don’t need to worry about them, I see them as something of a red herring. The real issue is, can Creation be ruled out. Is the Original Eternal Source a “not-nothing-as-we-know-it” condition or a living thing, a being. Forget about whether it’s bearded and sits on a cloud. If it’s a being then creation is ...(see #4)

[bsktool]

@megamarsvin

#2 science stands now, the possibility is being totally ruled out of something which surely is just as possible as the atheist alternative. The dating of fossils, the development of the phylogenetic tree, these are based on the flat out assumption that creation couldn’t have happened. Without these two painstakingly constructed platforms the theory of evolution would start to look a little shaky.

As for your 2nd point, I agree with you that a lot of beliefs pushed by...(see #3)

[bsktool]

@megamarsvin

#1 Thanks for your post mega-m, I don’t know that I agree with you completely. The annoying difficulty is that until the God hypothesis is at least acknowledged, no real science, in those areas in which this question has a bearing, can be done anyway.

That’s not to denigrate science’s many achievements, but it’s not out of the question that some scientific endeavours may be wandering up a dry gulch and getting further and further from the truth.

The way atheist ...(see #2)

[bsktool]

#3 … about some sort of eternal source of the universe and life, which is itself living, as an alternative to the atheist science hypothesis of an eternal “special nothing” which facilitated the universe creating itself (no explanation is offered for how life came to exist), then it’s pretty much 50/50. Any scientist who refuses to even admit to the rationality of testing such a high-probability alternative should be in a different line of work.

[megamarsvin]

@bsktool I think few scientists would have a problem with imagining "god" as representing the basic laws of the universe, Einstein's god if you will. But it's something which we can't (currently) test, we can't use to make predictions, an idea we can't falsify.

Therefor it can be an interesting philosophical debate but no real science can be done with it.

What's more this holds almost no relation to any mainstream religion, all of which make outrageous claims of magic and miracles.

[bsktool]

#2 … stating their opinion; which is fine also.

As to your counterclaim about the invisible dragons hypothesis, I would not be inclined to test such a one because I regard it as being so unlikely as to not be worthwhile investigating. But maybe you know something I don’t know in that area.

The God hypothesis, in its most basic form, stripped of all the luggage that has come to be associated with It in the religion industry, is not at all outrageous. If we’re just talking....(cont. in #3)

[bsktool]

@daverowbotham

Hi Dave, I appreciate your challenging me on what I said about needing to allow the hypothesis that God is real. There is absolutely no need for anyone to do so and if you’re not inclined to (without incontrovertible etc) then that’s fine.

But this is how science works. We take a hypo, that may seem unlikely but not outrageously so, and then test it. Until a researcher has done this they don’t really have grounds to deny it’s veracity, they’re just ....(cont. in #2)

[holidaysinsweden]

Is it Fry that Hitchens tells to "Shape up!" in the end of thr clip?

[n0iwont]

@holidaysinsweden ...no ! it's Hitchens who says it ..

[ciaranthebest]

lol stephens gay

[bsktool]

@ruandanj Hi. No; you won't find such proof anywhere I'm afraid.

Stephen asks "When a child has bone cancer, how can you say there is a loving God?"

It's a great question and good on him for asking. Dallas answers it consummately.

You're right in suggesting that one must first allow the hypothesis that God exists. The approach I recommend is to allow the hypothesis for now and then deal with such objections one by one as they arise. But look out, you may end up believing, as I have :)

[daverowbotham]

@bsktool I'll allow the hypotheses that god exists once there is incontravertable scientific evidence. The problem with your argument is I can easily counter with "you must first allow the hypotheses that there are invisible dragons and deal with such objections one by one as they arise", it is an intellectually bankrupt idea.

[racdula]

Religion is poison.

[Muskateering]

Stephen Fry is so awesome, his views an atheism and 'if there was a god' are bang on the money. I wish I had his level of IQ!

[bsktool]

@Muskateering

If you did maybe you wouldn't think him so awesome :)

[bsktool]

(put the usual htt-etc prefix in front of that url - youtube doesn't seem to like it verbatim)

[bsktool]

This'll take you to a page which contains 4 lecture/interviews with Dallas Willard, head of philosophy department at USC. mppc.org/learn/sermons

He talks about the problem of pain and suffering and how it can be reconciled with God.

They do the same interview 4 times. I find it's worthwhile listening to all 4 because Dallas is talking off the top of his head and he tends to expand on his ideas each time through.

If you know Stephen Fry's email address maybe email it to him.

[ruandanj]

@bsktool Does Dallas prove that "God" exists before divulging his, dare i say, wisdom?

[bsktool]

Sometimes you can drown in truth. Even if everything you say is true you may not have all the truth. I believe there is a loving God. I believe that, despite the fact that our churches are more or less corrupt, and that tragedies abound in the world. It's not obvious. It takes a bit of study. Studying is where you stay quiet and read/listen-to what hasn't occurred to you yet or you haven't yet heard/read. As distinct from stating all the things that you and most everyone knows to be true. :)

[FreeThinker148]

What I loved and still love the most about Hitchens and miss dearly is just how much of an adult he was. You can go your whole life without meeting one. I came across him and now he's gone. : (

[adolthitler]

"Faggotry causes earthquakes." Did the earth move for you?

[kochos777]

3.14 that is a fucking library... i want that in my ideal home

[bluexepnos]

@kochos777 pi?

[kochos777]

@bluexepnos pi? i'm afraid I don't understand

[bluexepnos]

@kochos777 lol

[JunkMale57]

@kochos777 I think I share your sentiment and high regard for the library, but my first thought was, "Wow, I'd like to have a library like that near me where I could lounge in one of those easy chairs and engage in spirited debates with other intellectual people."

[kochos777]

@JunkMale57 You're point being? Are you claiming to be more intelligent than me because you chose an option more realistic? Because I kept my statement short, with lack of punctuation and capitalization, ergo I must be stupid? I am a realist and the one time I step forward and show some optimism I have to be judged? To be honest I'm still not sure as to the point of what you are tying to say. Please elaborate so I am sure of whether to feel insulted or to compare your comment to your username.

[ceclovitch]

where can i find this full debate?

[TheRogueMod]

RIP Christopher.

[MegaJskinner]

huh huh, he said faggotry

[lacontrabasse]

The Creator is certainly capricious, but, it seems, has a conscience, as is confirmed by this recent message.

The Creator has posted a video on YouTube. The message comes to you directly, without the need for transcription or interpretation by bronze-age scribes, or analysis by Stephen Hawking.

The video tells you how you came to be here, outlines the meaning and purpose of your life, and gives you an insight into the future of humankind.

See ' God says sorry. '

[ProGuitarTuition]

hmm, I am surprised neither of them offered their own explanation rather than accepting religion as ingrained into the evolution of consciousness. Humans intelligence is based on empirical explanation and communication. Seeing something that is inexplicable still require explanation as our fore bearers did so with astronomical events, and other natural occurrences. The creation of deities was the best that could be concluded with little other technical knowledge. My two pence :)

[papermermaid]

@ProGuitarTuition

we are programmed to make and find patterns. just because one does not exist doesn't mean that one should be adhered to it. <3 deprogram youself

[ProGuitarTuition]

@papermermaid Not sure if you have missed my point, I am not justifying religion indeed I am a staunch atheist. They merely seem to too willingly accept religions inerrant basis in human psychology and I think it is a by product of something else rather than the root. You can't turn off pattern finding, that is asking to turn off the ability to interpret art, understand maths or even play music as is my profession.

[ProGuitarTuition]

@ProGuitarTuition So the idea of deprogramming yourself in terms of pattern finding at a subconscious level is ludicrous, or do I need my partner who is a neuro clinical psychologist to show you some brain scans ;)

[Strike86]

I love it when there's a video in the recommended videos section with a creationist argument, and the response to it was so overwhelmingly negative that they disable commenting and rating to prevent further embarassment.

[timewilltell7]

i admire their patience with the religiotards

the interesting thing is so many people of these religions are intelligent and you'll be having a normal conversation and suddenly they come up with these nonsensical biblical ideologies and statements which make me look at the person as if theyve suddenly gone mad

i dont think someone who doesnt "believe" can be true friends with a "believer" as this cult is so ingrained - believers are trained to think less of sane people - thats the cult

[yamenhawit]

Genius statement: "Nothing proves evolution more than the survival of religious belief; it shows we are still fearful, partially formed animals with terror of death and the dark."

[Shad3251]

@yamenhawit That's a very good point

[johnpetermalcolm]

@yamenhawit

We?

I am in awe of the "chosen one" who speaks for ALL of humannkind.

Enlighten us mortals; oh Mighty, and Powerful "Chosen One". Is HE truly the Messiah, or is he just a very naughty boy?

If you are afraid of death, then you are afraid of life.

If you are afraid of the dark, then you are a child.

I can believe that YOU are a partially formed animal; half Jessie, & half Pussy.

For "Magic Man In The Sky's" sake, forget the computer for at least one night, and get laid.

[yamenhawit]

@johnpetermalcolm What the fuck? lol You are obviously missing the point...

[MrVarsityphysics]

@yamenhawit But then again, nothing refutes evolution more than the survival of Evangelical Christians. How do you make it with that flawed an understanding of physics?

[yamenhawit]

@MrVarsityphysics Haha.. Also a valid point!

[Shadowman4710]

@MrVarsityphysics You don't. They are dying out.

[ForYeensSake]

@yamenhawit I think DNA proves it more, but it is one of the better points hitchens ever made. And his weakest points were already ridiculously strong :P

[yamenhawit]

@ForYeensSake Yeah, for sure.

[applecrumping33]

bible 2.0. bible 4.1.6 beta upgrade. portable bible in 3d. the PSB 3d. bible redux directors cut. bible:behind the scenes. hahahahahaha what a fucking joke.

[jjoneil73]

Intellect, common sense, logic, sound reasoning & scientific facts will govern our morality as a species and NOT a fabricated story created by irrational, illiterate, delusional men!

[01110110010110110101]

@jjoneil73 if the bible suited you more you'd follow that, regardless of truth or facts, you slimy profane hypocritical fuck.

[ImMichaelTaylor]

Blasphemy, blas for you, blas for everyone !

[Voxnulla]

@ImMichaelTaylor Izzard win !

[InformationMinister]

Wtf is it with bible bashers doning the name jedi__ etc, haven't they heard the part of the bible that casts down the worship of false idols?

[Boredonthejob]

@InformationMinister Is that a serious question?

[InformationMinister]

@Boredonthejob No not really, just something I said while drunk...I was celebrating my birthday. More to the point, it was just something I felt obliged to point out given i've met a few users by the name of Jedi__ and they've always been on the christian side (effectively I was pointing out the obvious), might be the same person with different profiles, not sure. Hope this answers your question. :]

[sukruoosten]

i obvious know why people try to deny god

they look at the world who is wicked en all of diseases wars suffering hunger en thirst problems en i can go on for days !!!

but you must realize the atheist takes away THE HOOP FOR JUSTICE 100%

which will occur in the second earth en heavens !!!!!

dna made us so we cant even trust our own minds

end rapers mass murderers 9/11 those people get away with punishment !!!!

no GOD knows ALL

en jezus will judge us ALL

[splicedenergy]

@sukruoosten Jesus is a myth

[sukruoosten]

@splicedenergy proof it

[Forceofhabbit]

@sukruoosten Proof Leprechauns and fairies.

[sukruoosten]

@Forceofhabbit proof how life can star with non living materials hahahahaahahaah

now that takes FAITH !!!!!!!

dont call evolution science its a religion

you assume en hope it happened long ago en far away NO PROOF

end proof there is no everlasting father (God)

[TheAllmanbrothersfan]

@sukruoosten wow another stupid, misinformed and downright dumb follower of jebus lmao btw which version of the bible do you subscribe to?

[Omnislash2000]

@sukruoosten

What most athiests have a problem with, is the thiests proof of God.

There is no proof that Yahweh exists over Allah, or Zeus, or Rahma...

Which is real?

Modern, secular, intelligent human beings, who have had an education need evidence to believe in fairy tales.

Take the desert people of the past of Judea and pagan lands. They grunted at each other as a language, they burned their own children alive, they stoned people, they were animals. They believed in God. Why should we?

[splicedenergy]

@splicedenergy Adam and eve, noah, moses, the devil, talking snakes, trees of knowledge etc etc are all made up

[TehPonynaut]

@sukruoosten

Jesus will judge us all and i will judge your spelling.

F. See me after class.

[sukruoosten]

@TehPonynaut if i were to take lessons on the English language

will you try opening the bible once a day for 1 hour

what do you say

good deal right ????

[AAgetTanked]

@TehPonynaut "jesus will judge us" - if your worshiping your "god" / "jesus" so your not "judged badly" then your in it for the wrong reasons kiddo - ps. religion = good people doing bad things.

[mp3talon]

omg cant get better than this !

[carissav1]

I am glad that there are such intelligent people around to make these arguments in opposition to religion. We don't have enough of this in America. We are surrounded by those who blindly believe something for no other reason than that it is written down. All the while trying to force these beliefs and ways of life down everyone else's throat. GET WELL SOON HITCH! WE NEED YOU!

[Pinage]

@carissav1 The only well known, outspoken American atheist I can think of is Harris and even he is dwarfed by Hitchens, Fry and Dawkins.

[juikm]

@Pinage Hitchens is an American citizen now. Has been since 2002 I think.

[comicreaper]

@carissav1 i forgot where i read this but i thought it was funny. "Religion is like a penis. It's okay to have one, it's okay to be proud of it. Just don't whip it out in public or try to shove it down children's throats."

[wesmatron]

@comicreaper LOL Perfect

[JohnF30Music]

@comicreaper christopher hitchens said this during a debate that's on youtube

[dakulol]

@comicreaper LOL love it

[drprasad79]

two brilliant guys!thanks for the upload

[TheJediCharles]

We're fast approaching a time we could see the pole reversal of the Crusades and the Inquisition, where religious intolerance will reach a fury and popular acceptance.

High brows like these could benefit from learning from a lowly cretin like myself that religious intolerance is not a virtue.

The issue is being able to see the value of a world view held dear that we don't share in, regardless of what side of the fence one is on.

Man, these guys ooze contempt.

[FairAdvantage]

@TheJediCharles 2/2 silence or destroy all opposition in the case of Islam, foster shame and self-denigration in the case of Christianity (original sin?), and in some cases, to willfully ignore the progress we make as a species.

Given those religious commands (and they are often commands, or at least assertions), it's easy to understand where they're coming from. They're antitheists. That means they see religion as a threat to human liberty and safety.

It's not elitism. They believe this stuff.

[samenobangohan]

Why is it that being critical of religion is usually equated to religious intolerance? They (we) believe that religion should not be inmune for criticism, and that the actions of religious people, in particular religious authority should not be inmune of criticism either. 

Religious intolerance is a different matter; people are told what to believe and risk discrimination/persecution/pun­ishment for not complying. Believe what you want, but lets be respectfully critical of one another.

[TheJediCharles]

"Nothing proves evolution more than the survival of religious belief."

It's utterly sick the level of elitist, snobby contempt his ilk has for religious thought. He actually, literally regards himself as a higher human being than one who believes in a religion. I'm assured he'd reject the opposite conclusion upon examining the same data that it's not our primeval fear of the dark but our pre-progamming to seek God. Humans are born with a spiritual nature, he must find it another odd accident.

[FairAdvantage]

@TheJediCharles 1/2

"He actually, literally regards himself as a higher human being than one who believes in a religion."

I don't recall him saying that. Having a dissenting opinion doesn't make one an elitist. If by "higher" you mean more morally upright, consider their position. They're secular, atheistic humanists comparing themselves to people whose holy book commands them to discriminate against homosexuals, limit the freedoms of others, condemn anyone who disagrees to eternal suffering,

[Alexdurrant7]

@TheJediCharles That's not his point. Read Dennett's book, 'Breaking The Spell', if you want to understand where Hitchens is coming from here.

[LeGaben]

@TheJediCharles were not god with faith. faith is tought. wich imo prooves that god doenst exist.

[TheJediCharles]

@LeGaben

In terms of language, there is little difference between faith and belief. Both are holding to an idea without 100% proof, and perhaps only suggesting that faith is a bit stronger. With that, even Atheists have belief and faith because they cannot prove everything either and hold to ideas and explanations that are if anything more far-flung than that of religious persons.

Ideas can be taught, but the urge to believe in something greater than ourselves is as natural as thirst for water.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Thats funny. You mean he thinks hes god? You go through life holding beliefs you claim come from a higher being. Religion was born out of innocent ignorance. If people thousands of years ago knew how the planet worked, do you honestly think they would make sacrifices to appease gods they thought caused volcanoes and other disasters?

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

You very likely could not have gotten my point more wrong had you grunted.

Your 2nd sentence is an assumption you got wrong. Your 3rd is yet another assumption, as I revealed nothing about my belief, and could be Atheist myself, and am only commenting on his statements, and as such my belief's are irrelevant. Your 4th is simply changing the subject to a theological debate.

So start over, this time reacting only to what I said and not what you claim I said and wish to argue.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles OK, your talking complete bollocks.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

...and you're blinded by theological lines. You remind me of Stalin's quote "there are no enemy's on the left." Either a remark is offensive or it's not, and his remark is offensive and elistist, and it should not matter what you believe to see that. You don't have to be black to be offended anyone uses the n word.

You don't have to be religious to be offended by religious intolerance.

But, it's in vogue these days, sadly.

Good day.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles you mean your offended by it, that doesnt make it offensive, or elitist. Theres nothing more elitist than religion.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

I'm not offended by it. It's definitionally, patently offensive. I quote him, "nothing proves evolution more than the survival of religious belief." He has put religious thought on the whole lower than non-religious thought on the very ladder of our species. He said that religious persons are lower beings.

Are you saying that when a religious person says Atheists are lower beings it's not offensive?

Come now, be intellectually honest and morally consistent.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

Nothing more elitist than religion? So, when the Communists were marching the Christians, religious Jews, Muslims, and what have you into the gulag, that's not elitist?

The issue here is intolerance of others. Period. Both sides of the big fence have their numbers, there's intolerant ones on both sides to the peril of all and there's kindly, mutually-respectful ones on both sides. I'm against intolerance which is destructive to all. You? Just religion, ergo, intolerant.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Im only intolerant of fools. Your forgetting the little inconvenient fact of how many people have died over the ages as a direct result of religion. Its started more wars, caused more pain and suffering then any other regime, no matter how nasty. It seems your intolerant of the facts. Some of the very worst acts of violence and depravity have been acted out in the name of religion. Religion has its hands stained with oppression and subjegation.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

I see you're not interested in reacting to my specific comment and keeping on that topic but wish to drag us to the lowest denominator. If you're not interested in my original comment, go away. I didn't sign up for you to badger me with your free-wheeling, anti-religious fanaticism.

Go find another target for your anger.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Im not angry with you, quite the opposite, Im amused. I see your very intolerant to people disagreeing with you. How elitist. How do you come to the ludicrous conclusion im a fanatic?? Thats the ramblings of the liberal left if ever Ive heard it. Typical extreme rhetoric designed to deflect away from reasoned debate. Im surprised you havent included "Racist" or "Extremist" yet. If you post a thread, expect a reply, thats the nature of youtube.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

Utterly laughable. You just accused me of being politically left-of-center? Wow, you should give up pigeon-holing, you don't have the knack.

Son, you're a fanatic because you refuse to accept that you've changed the subject. Your preoccupation is oozing out of your pores, which is attack religious people.

I don't have to be lead by the nose to what you wish to debate in order to say I stand by my comment and am prepared to debate THAT.

Until you learn to focus, leave me alone.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles I sincerely hope you recognise the rank hypocrisy in your argument.

[TheJediCharles]

"Nothing proves evolution more than the survival of religious belief."

It's utterly sick the level of elitist, snobby contempt his ilk has for religious thought. He actually, literally regards himself as a higher human being than one who believes in a religion. I'm assured he'd reject the opposite conclusion upon examining the same data that it's not our primeval fear of the dark but our pre-progamming to seek God. Humans are born with a spiritual nature, he must find it another odd accident.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles I think your confusing "Spiritual" with "Curious". Humans are Curious by nature. Religion comes by way of indoctrination.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

I chose my words carefully. I'd ask you if you're confusing spiritual nature with religion.

Forget religion. Do you reject that humans are impressed with a natural drive towards something greater than our own species, a greater purpose, a hunger for an all-unifying meaning and significance? Why would any species evolve such a quality? Scientists don't know why we even evolved a consciousness at all, to say nothing about our propensity towards belief that we continue after death.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Mans quest is for answers, to everything, to be able to understand everything, why we are here, whats our part in the whole thing etc. We have the intelligence to be able to get answers to alot of our most prominent questions, but not all. I dont think that makes mankind spiritual. Some people believe they are spiritual, but to say we are spiritual persae, I disagree. But Hitchens and fry are debating religion fundamentally, not spirituality.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

Here's a hypothetical for you; suppose humanity was "reset". Suppose we dumped off "purified people", perhaps functional children, who have no language, were raised in a lab, given just what was needed to stay alive at arms length, and then dumped off on a new Earth-like planet and allowed to re-civilize themselves.

Do you actually believe after 200,000 years they would not have the beginnings of religion again?

Do you really believe that? Is that not then "our nature"?

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Basically your rehashing mans early existence in an hypothetical scenario. Without the knowledge base we have amassed today, then there would be the same irrational fears as there was before, and Im sure someone would conjure up a mythical figure to blame/worship in the hope that appeasement/sacrifice stops tragedy. That doesnt make them spiritual by nature. Its mankinds extraordinary curiosity, coupled with higher intelligence that defines our nature. We are curious by nature.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

Well, if you think that there is no difference between curiosity and spirituality, what have you got against people being inherently curious en masse?

If one person alone believing in something he cannot prove doesn't bother you (sure it does, but let's give you credit), and if two people believe in something doesn't bother you, what in the world bothers you so much that you have so much contempt for people exercising their curiosity as a collective?

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles Who states theres no diff between curiosity and spirituality? I certainly havent. Ive stated we are a curious species by nature. Your the one who said we are spiritual, which I disagree with. People believing in god are not expressing curiosity, more like absolutism in a theology without any facts to back up their beliefs. I'd argue it has been mans quest for knowledge that threatens the beliefs of religious people today. I dont belive in god, do you?

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

I don't care what your belief's are and mine should be irrelevant to you.

Science doesn't threaten religious beliefs that I've seen, but intolerance from either side is very much a threat to everyone.

I'm bored with your attempt to personalize this and make this a theological combat between us and will close "with you" in saying you've provided nothing to make Fry's remark less of how I described them.

Have a good day, and I hope you find a happy path through life.

[Pocketwatchable]

@TheJediCharles I havent tried to make it personal at all. I dont need to know if you believe in god or not tbh, its plain by your comments what you believe.I just think your agruments flawed. I find it ludicrous your trying to make out im in some way making personal attacks on you, when youve tried to smear both these men in previous posts. "The pot calling the kettle black" springs to mind.

[TheJediCharles]

@Pocketwatchable

...again, offered NOTHING to the matter of Fry's comments being offensive.