What people don't realize is that the CIA has been stopping disasters since the late 60's. They have prevented wars between America and other countries that people don't even know about. I don't care if they tortured people because quite frankly they would be doing there job by protecting something way bigger... America. Killing and torturing a few men is a small sacrifice compared to millions of innocent Americans dieing. Think of the bigger picture...
Use of power drills, cutting out of eyes, peeling off of skin, electric shocks, breaking fingers, extraction of fingernails, castration, breaking and dislocation of bones.
The London newspaper further noted “graphic nature of images may explain the US President Obama’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.”
Maj. Gen. Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.
This is EXACTLY what TENET INSTRUCTED HIS PEOPLE TO DO:
... an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another shows a male translator raping a male detainee...photographs depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube... a team of CIA, Military Intelligence officers and private consultants under the employ of the US govt.... "Their main and specific mission was to give the interrogators new techniques..."
Ok, news articles, whatever u want to call it, but you won't find the info on FOX NEWS...or CNN...or any crappy fake news agencies that I am aware of. On a vid I found, a guy gives sources about how SPECIAL FORCES, joint US and Brits, have been dressing up like the Taliban terrorists to carry out crimes to keep the FAKE war on terror LIE going, at least since 2005.(Tenant is a CREEP!) They ARE the terrorist. The title of the vid is:
British Special Forces caught posing as Arab "Terrorists"
This man has "sexual deviant" written all over his face. Do a search for CIA protected pedophile program. Your tax dollars fund it. Everyone knows the CIA kills and bombs people then blames it on some flavor of the month terrorist group THEIR media worked ahead of time to build up or frames some whistle blower. Everyone knows the CIA are and have been OUT OF CONTROL and that they are SAVAGES above the law. They are above the law and are THE problem. They are sociopaths. They prevent WORLD PEACE
THIS MAN IS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR, and just to get things straight, if THEY don't torture, they HIRE by private contractors to torture. They have a LENGTHY disgusting track record for not only TORTURE, but for MURDER, RENDITION KIDNAPPING & TORTURE, then there is the RAPE of too many NON CONSENTING adults FORCED to take part in espionage. Cathy O'brien and Mark Phillips are former CIA insiders who went into hiding from that program alone, then came out to go before Congress. They are on Utube.
"LISTEN TO ME, WE DONT TORTURE PEOPLE....WE DONT...NOPE.....(water boarding?) WE DONT TORTURE i mean TALK ABOUT OUR TORTURE TECHNIQUES......but.... WE DONT TORTURE PEOPLE....This Moron just had an oxymoron....... He admits water boarding torture is a "technique"...MORON
They cut their eyes out, peel their skin off, pull out their fingernails and toenails, break their fingers, burn them with blowtorches, torture them with powerdrills.
I could tell you all things about this wanker and the rest of the CIA that would curl your teeth.
Type into youtube/internet ' CIA CAUGHT' and see what comes up. You might be surprised. Then ask Obama why this murdering fucker gets away with lying to you all... Or arent you allowed to ask the government 'who works for you' real questions?
Tenet denies torture? I hope there is a full public Senate hearing into what was going on during the Bush Years. In the late 70's Senator Church was investigating the CIA and it was revealed that the CIA had a secret brainwashing program code named MKUltra. They paid a Dr Cameron In Montreal to carry it out. 9 of us sued the CIA in the 80's and they settled out of court after 8 years. I am telling my story on you tube called youkilledyourmother
yes, by all means lets have a soviet style show trial of bush, chenney and we can drag in clinton. that's a precedent our nation has really needed to setl with any luck sooner rather then late the United States can be the world's largest bannana republic.
if somebody harmed you, i;m sorry, but you must see the ramifications of such a stunt, right?
and in order to do what?
elections may not be so civil and ordely if people contemplated going to jail.
It's not a stunt. They do torture and when they do it to lawabiding americans and canadians then it should be made public. Waterboarding was not the only form of torture and that will be revealed in a public enquiry
AP is reporting that George Bush was advise from "Jack" from the hit TV show "24" on how to torture people. Could that be the reason why Mr. Tenet refuses to talk about interrogation technique?
listen. would you rather us interrogate possible terrorist on plans that could take hundreds or thousands of lives or have their plot succeed? you tell me.
we tortured sheik bin al libi, and got him to confess falsely that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and as a result 3000+ of our soldiers died in the ensuing war. We don't torture to interrogate. we torture people to extract false confessions for political purposes . We tortured Kalid Sheik Mohom to try to get him to falsely link Saddam to Al Qaeda to cover Dick Cheney's ass for political reasons.
Do you support torture to extract false confessions for political purposes?
Mental torture is so much worse, I can only imagine how those prisoners must think about all those waterboardings just by watching a lake/ river, or by drinking a glass whenever they are thirsty.
And this for the rest of their lives.
Screw dehuminizing words like "terrorist" and "war-criminal", they are just human like you, and some innocent.
Same with gov. ops. like "war on drugs" and "war on terror", its unrealistic and unwinnable, fighting poor people in bushes and caves, wtf?
"I wont talk about specific techniques, we do not torture."
Come on now George...
"Ok, we did, but it was only because we were afraid of the palpable fear after 9/11 and Rumsfelds 'known unknown' speech really scared the shit out of us."
This is what you get when there's so many liberals around. I'm sure nobody would be complaining if it were suspected former Nazis or something who were tortured. It's the same deal here because they tortured suspected al Qaeda terrorists. Both are war criminals. What they did wasn't fun for the people that did it either, but I sort of think they did what they needed to do to get information in the interest of our national security.
They aren't going to come out and admit it and say we did this and that. They aren't going to tell how they do what they do, that's what makes their operations covert and makes them effective. But once again, they did not interrogate American citizens, they interrogated suspected war criminals. Then people bitch about the rights of suspected war criminals without even thinking about the fact that these people might know where the guy is that killed thousands by flying planes into two buildings.
And it doesn't even begin to compare to the way our soldiers were treated as POWs by other countries in years past. It's an ugly business, but they did what they had to do. I do not blame them one bit.
Of course they did what people think they did. I admit, the CIA does abuse their power from time to time, but I feel that these people should be protected in the interest of national security. It probably wasn't fun for the ppl who had to interrogate them, but they needed to do what they did in order to get information in order to find their enemies and save American lives. It's not like they did this to Americans, they did it to war criminals.
He is full of crap. Him and Dicky were in constant contact--that being Dicky was always going to CIA HQ. Now we learn that Cheney's office had files on terror suspects with dates going back to 02. They were desperate for information and were willing to do anything to obtain it--true or untrue. Yes. This guy needs to be under oath and cross-examined.
"On July 5 2001, White House summoned officials of a dozen federal agencies to the Situation Room. 'Something really spectacular is going to happen here, and it's going to happen soon,' the government's top counterterrorism official, Richard Clarke said, The alerts of the early and mid-summer -- described by two career counterterrorist officials as the most urgent in decades -- had faded to secondary concern by the time of Bush's extended Crawford vacation."
You could tell he was well-coached on this. "We do not torture" and then "I will not discuss specific techniques". So if he ever gets called on this at a later date, he will say waterboarding wasn't defined as torture. By not discussing specific techniques, he never has to defend that thinking.
"We do not torture people", was the same line shrub rehearsed and then tried to spring on the Mexicans...from the booing he recieved I think no one there bought it either! This is what Tenet is trying to say,
Boo-hoo (put yourself in my place!) "I didn't know what was going on in the US and no one else did either so it was necessary to (not) torture people to get the information I needed"...the necessity of obtaining this information erased the reality of what I did to get it! Deny everything
Guess what guys, it is an inside job, with the nukes in the states as well.The Jesuits have them everywhere ready to go, the ground based nukes are the bad ones, the ones we lob at enemies are just dirty nukes, not chain reaction nukes.Those can only be done from the ground.Look into it, before you are part of one.
Why would anyone trust anything George Tenet says? He helped Bush cherry pick the intelligence on Iraq to create a fraudulent case for war. This guy's a professional liar with no credibility. Great reporting, CBS!
CIA doesn't torture? Either Tenet is the dumbest director in history, or he's simply lying to save face.
CIA's Buzz Krongard was one of the insiders with Zakheim, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Krongard knew enough to make a killing in the put options. Tenet may have been set up. Yet I do find it difficult to believe that a CIA director is unable to notice how all FBI/CIA investigations into Osama gets derailed when too close.
The reason they don't "torture" is that "torture" is illegal. Since they ARE the law, EVERYTHING is legal. So they can crush a man's nuts and drown him, and it is not torture because everything is good.
Ok, he doesn't torture but He won't talk about techniques, and then he walks us through what amounts to a defense of torture -- "We were/are scared". I'd have more respect if they just said the truth.
"I don't talk about techniques... and we DON'T torture people!" See the way he can't stop his finger from going to his mouth? Classic unconscious "tell" of a freaking liar. Was he trying a Jedi mind-trick there or what?
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
AMEN!!
If there ever is another attack on the scale (or, heaven forbid, a LARGER scale) of the attacks of September 11, 2001, the only people to blame are those that ignore the fact that WE ARE AT WAR, AND WAR WAS DECLARED AGAINST US, and those that don't understand that when WAR is on, the rules change.
It is better that one man perish than an entire nation be held hostage by the Islamofacist Jihadists.
You are a big lier!!! Struggle with this; April 28th Impeach Bush/Cheney and all their henchmen for war crimes against the American people and against humanity! "We the People" are America, you pr%ck! We the People" don't torture other humans! "We the People" have the congress back; and you can get ready for a "Hat Trick" come 2008!
"I don't talk about techniques and we do not torture people." lol sounds like an oxymoron to me.
whitehottoddy 2 months ago
American beauty.
LionTipu 2 months ago
What people don't realize is that the CIA has been stopping disasters since the late 60's. They have prevented wars between America and other countries that people don't even know about. I don't care if they tortured people because quite frankly they would be doing there job by protecting something way bigger... America. Killing and torturing a few men is a small sacrifice compared to millions of innocent Americans dieing. Think of the bigger picture...
TheBigjohnny84 4 months ago
holy shit this guy is straight up evil. I'm glad I'm voting for Ron Paul, the least I could do is get this guy out of his job.
BootyBot 4 months ago
Use of power drills, cutting out of eyes, peeling off of skin, electric shocks, breaking fingers, extraction of fingernails, castration, breaking and dislocation of bones.
youngdones 5 months ago
The London newspaper further noted “graphic nature of images may explain the US President Obama’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.”
Maj. Gen. Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.
AND YOUR TAX DOLLARS PAID FOR ALL OF IT.
This was done thru TENET'S ORDERS!
letstalkaboutstuff 5 months ago
This is EXACTLY what TENET INSTRUCTED HIS PEOPLE TO DO:
... an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another shows a male translator raping a male detainee...photographs depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube... a team of CIA, Military Intelligence officers and private consultants under the employ of the US govt.... "Their main and specific mission was to give the interrogators new techniques..."
letstalkaboutstuff 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ok, news articles, whatever u want to call it, but you won't find the info on FOX NEWS...or CNN...or any crappy fake news agencies that I am aware of. On a vid I found, a guy gives sources about how SPECIAL FORCES, joint US and Brits, have been dressing up like the Taliban terrorists to carry out crimes to keep the FAKE war on terror LIE going, at least since 2005.(Tenant is a CREEP!) They ARE the terrorist. The title of the vid is:
British Special Forces caught posing as Arab "Terrorists"
letstalkaboutstuff 5 months ago
This man has "sexual deviant" written all over his face. Do a search for CIA protected pedophile program. Your tax dollars fund it. Everyone knows the CIA kills and bombs people then blames it on some flavor of the month terrorist group THEIR media worked ahead of time to build up or frames some whistle blower. Everyone knows the CIA are and have been OUT OF CONTROL and that they are SAVAGES above the law. They are above the law and are THE problem. They are sociopaths. They prevent WORLD PEACE
letstalkaboutstuff 6 months ago
THIS MAN IS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR, and just to get things straight, if THEY don't torture, they HIRE by private contractors to torture. They have a LENGTHY disgusting track record for not only TORTURE, but for MURDER, RENDITION KIDNAPPING & TORTURE, then there is the RAPE of too many NON CONSENTING adults FORCED to take part in espionage. Cathy O'brien and Mark Phillips are former CIA insiders who went into hiding from that program alone, then came out to go before Congress. They are on Utube.
letstalkaboutstuff 6 months ago
liar !!!
TheZombiedanceparty 7 months ago
this man lies.it´s so obvious.i can see it in his eyes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TheZombiedanceparty 7 months ago
"LISTEN TO ME, WE DONT TORTURE PEOPLE....WE DONT...NOPE.....(water boarding?) WE DONT TORTURE i mean TALK ABOUT OUR TORTURE TECHNIQUES......but.... WE DONT TORTURE PEOPLE....This Moron just had an oxymoron....... He admits water boarding torture is a "technique"...MORON
HeadmoMusic 9 months ago
What a liar. They don't torture.? one lie after another in our empire of lies
blowbackinevitable 1 year ago
They cut their eyes out, peel their skin off, pull out their fingernails and toenails, break their fingers, burn them with blowtorches, torture them with powerdrills.
youngdones 1 year ago
george, you've been taken over. that's obvious.
miasria 1 year ago
Fat Fucker.Aint shit.
sweetcrook 1 year ago
this jackass says he doesn't know what's going on around US???? cmon
masterdan13 1 year ago
@masterdan13 You're saying Islamist cells are easy to penetrate and spy on?
Redcarpet01 8 months ago
wow this guy is a prick.. and awfully defensive
Kopihucky 1 year ago
fucking jew liar
munk25 1 year ago
Stop qualifying your reason for tourture.
scfloyd1 1 year ago
Excellent facial expressions. no movement of eye brows. However that chin touching movement blown him away. His lying but a ppro liar not doubt
Lukeclout 2 years ago
what an asshole lo!L
dude the CIA sounds awesome but i no there corrupt. -.-
theEBKman 2 years ago
I could tell you all things about this wanker and the rest of the CIA that would curl your teeth.
Type into youtube/internet ' CIA CAUGHT' and see what comes up. You might be surprised. Then ask Obama why this murdering fucker gets away with lying to you all... Or arent you allowed to ask the government 'who works for you' real questions?
KJS72 2 years ago
EVIL
JacoPastorius0 2 years ago
In today's news the CIA will ne investigated vis a vis torture
photo986 2 years ago
Tenet denies torture? I hope there is a full public Senate hearing into what was going on during the Bush Years. In the late 70's Senator Church was investigating the CIA and it was revealed that the CIA had a secret brainwashing program code named MKUltra. They paid a Dr Cameron In Montreal to carry it out. 9 of us sued the CIA in the 80's and they settled out of court after 8 years. I am telling my story on you tube called youkilledyourmother
photo986 2 years ago
yes, by all means lets have a soviet style show trial of bush, chenney and we can drag in clinton. that's a precedent our nation has really needed to setl with any luck sooner rather then late the United States can be the world's largest bannana republic.
if somebody harmed you, i;m sorry, but you must see the ramifications of such a stunt, right?
and in order to do what?
elections may not be so civil and ordely if people contemplated going to jail.
theMETALDOVE 2 years ago
It's not a stunt. They do torture and when they do it to lawabiding americans and canadians then it should be made public. Waterboarding was not the only form of torture and that will be revealed in a public enquiry
photo986 2 years ago
So many dumbshit comments and ignorant people out there. Only furthers my anti-populist sentiments.
plummerjones 2 years ago
George comes across as a late middle-aged jock who managed to get his tough-guy job because of connections. In other words, he's stupid but lucky.
freedomsfart 2 years ago
AP is reporting that George Bush was advise from "Jack" from the hit TV show "24" on how to torture people. Could that be the reason why Mr. Tenet refuses to talk about interrogation technique?
GOTGLOCK29 2 years ago
For lying to protect G W Bush Bush
Bush gave this traitor a medal
Now America is on the international list of Countries that torture ,put there by Canada.
you have 12 lawyers that signed the memos
allowing torture .
you are harboring 12 men who are war criminals and who committed crimes against humanity .
until such time as the American people hand these people over to the international courts
their crimes against humanity is on your collective heads.
Make no mistake about this.
dave777blaster 2 years ago 2
listen. would you rather us interrogate possible terrorist on plans that could take hundreds or thousands of lives or have their plot succeed? you tell me.
tennisrox29 2 years ago
we tortured sheik bin al libi, and got him to confess falsely that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and as a result 3000+ of our soldiers died in the ensuing war. We don't torture to interrogate. we torture people to extract false confessions for political purposes . We tortured Kalid Sheik Mohom to try to get him to falsely link Saddam to Al Qaeda to cover Dick Cheney's ass for political reasons.
Do you support torture to extract false confessions for political purposes?
ciantgock 2 years ago 2
Just can't wait until that shithole of a nation collapses on its own ignorance and consumes itself.
DoubleDX 2 years ago
Oh yeah, i was soooo afraid, zzeee pulbable fear of our own ignorance, it wasn't me it wasn't me it wasn't me.... Coward!
Antoshik81 2 years ago
PALPABLE :)
wsm1986 2 years ago
American CIA has always been harmful to wold peace.
WashMitt 2 years ago 2
You sir are an unread idiot. WOW. Simply WOW.
plummerjones 2 years ago
Mental torture is so much worse, I can only imagine how those prisoners must think about all those waterboardings just by watching a lake/ river, or by drinking a glass whenever they are thirsty.
And this for the rest of their lives.
Screw dehuminizing words like "terrorist" and "war-criminal", they are just human like you, and some innocent.
Same with gov. ops. like "war on drugs" and "war on terror", its unrealistic and unwinnable, fighting poor people in bushes and caves, wtf?
aces9876 2 years ago
"We do not torture. The CIA does not torture".
What about waterboarding?
"I wont talk about specific techniques, we do not torture."
Come on now George...
"Ok, we did, but it was only because we were afraid of the palpable fear after 9/11 and Rumsfelds 'known unknown' speech really scared the shit out of us."
EricIndiana 2 years ago
This is what you get when there's so many liberals around. I'm sure nobody would be complaining if it were suspected former Nazis or something who were tortured. It's the same deal here because they tortured suspected al Qaeda terrorists. Both are war criminals. What they did wasn't fun for the people that did it either, but I sort of think they did what they needed to do to get information in the interest of our national security.
hogger129 2 years ago
Comment removed
hogger129 2 years ago
They aren't going to come out and admit it and say we did this and that. They aren't going to tell how they do what they do, that's what makes their operations covert and makes them effective. But once again, they did not interrogate American citizens, they interrogated suspected war criminals. Then people bitch about the rights of suspected war criminals without even thinking about the fact that these people might know where the guy is that killed thousands by flying planes into two buildings.
hogger129 2 years ago
Comment removed
hogger129 2 years ago
And it doesn't even begin to compare to the way our soldiers were treated as POWs by other countries in years past. It's an ugly business, but they did what they had to do. I do not blame them one bit.
hogger129 2 years ago
Of course they did what people think they did. I admit, the CIA does abuse their power from time to time, but I feel that these people should be protected in the interest of national security. It probably wasn't fun for the ppl who had to interrogate them, but they needed to do what they did in order to get information in order to find their enemies and save American lives. It's not like they did this to Americans, they did it to war criminals.
hogger129 2 years ago
He is full of crap. Him and Dicky were in constant contact--that being Dicky was always going to CIA HQ. Now we learn that Cheney's office had files on terror suspects with dates going back to 02. They were desperate for information and were willing to do anything to obtain it--true or untrue. Yes. This guy needs to be under oath and cross-examined.
gwg5640 2 years ago
""We did not know"??!!
"On July 5 2001, White House summoned officials of a dozen federal agencies to the Situation Room. 'Something really spectacular is going to happen here, and it's going to happen soon,' the government's top counterterrorism official, Richard Clarke said, The alerts of the early and mid-summer -- described by two career counterterrorist officials as the most urgent in decades -- had faded to secondary concern by the time of Bush's extended Crawford vacation."
highvibration 2 years ago
funny i never felt any fear about any threat from anywhere outside the country
IRSFRAUDEXPOSED 2 years ago
You could tell he was well-coached on this. "We do not torture" and then "I will not discuss specific techniques". So if he ever gets called on this at a later date, he will say waterboarding wasn't defined as torture. By not discussing specific techniques, he never has to defend that thinking.
gt6303c 2 years ago
This guy should go to jail, period.
skullsvcrossbones 2 years ago
Tenet - guilty as hell.
Silberdachs 2 years ago
Tenet, you bet, that guy first says that "We Do Not Torture", then says that our torture saved lives. Kinda makes your head spin!
peaceispatriotic7 2 years ago
evidence shows
not words
sunlightallgodsworld 2 years ago
Comment removed
angeloconn 2 years ago
"We do not torture people", was the same line shrub rehearsed and then tried to spring on the Mexicans...from the booing he recieved I think no one there bought it either! This is what Tenet is trying to say,
Boo-hoo (put yourself in my place!) "I didn't know what was going on in the US and no one else did either so it was necessary to (not) torture people to get the information I needed"...the necessity of obtaining this information erased the reality of what I did to get it! Deny everything
mycomind 3 years ago
See how he tired to divert the conversation. He openly lied about not torturing people.
amirforman 3 years ago 3
Guess what guys, it is an inside job, with the nukes in the states as well.The Jesuits have them everywhere ready to go, the ground based nukes are the bad ones, the ones we lob at enemies are just dirty nukes, not chain reaction nukes.Those can only be done from the ground.Look into it, before you are part of one.
growsitwell 3 years ago 2
lol
Does this bastard thinks that someone in the world believe him?
BiffTheUnderstudy 3 years ago 8
Why would anyone trust anything George Tenet says? He helped Bush cherry pick the intelligence on Iraq to create a fraudulent case for war. This guy's a professional liar with no credibility. Great reporting, CBS!
hyperrreal 3 years ago
CIA doesn't torture? Either Tenet is the dumbest director in history, or he's simply lying to save face.
CIA's Buzz Krongard was one of the insiders with Zakheim, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Krongard knew enough to make a killing in the put options. Tenet may have been set up. Yet I do find it difficult to believe that a CIA director is unable to notice how all FBI/CIA investigations into Osama gets derailed when too close.
3theThird 4 years ago 3
Our government is so loving. Watch the documentary "The Road to Guantanamo".
truthamerica911 4 years ago 2
They don't "torture". They use the "Ministry of Love". LOL!
truthamerica911 4 years ago 2
The reason they don't "torture" is that "torture" is illegal. Since they ARE the law, EVERYTHING is legal. So they can crush a man's nuts and drown him, and it is not torture because everything is good.
truthamerica911 4 years ago 12
@truthamerica911 You're just mad it worked!
gunzrkewl 1 year ago
Ok, he doesn't torture but He won't talk about techniques, and then he walks us through what amounts to a defense of torture -- "We were/are scared". I'd have more respect if they just said the truth.
homeopt 4 years ago 3
"I don't talk about techniques... and we DON'T torture people!" See the way he can't stop his finger from going to his mouth? Classic unconscious "tell" of a freaking liar. Was he trying a Jedi mind-trick there or what?
vibradiant 4 years ago 3
haha ya right!
zhossain1 4 years ago
Did you see the tears in the interviewer's eyes?
MisterQuebec 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
AMEN!!
If there ever is another attack on the scale (or, heaven forbid, a LARGER scale) of the attacks of September 11, 2001, the only people to blame are those that ignore the fact that WE ARE AT WAR, AND WAR WAS DECLARED AGAINST US, and those that don't understand that when WAR is on, the rules change.
It is better that one man perish than an entire nation be held hostage by the Islamofacist Jihadists.
ScottKin 4 years ago
You are a big lier!!! Struggle with this; April 28th Impeach Bush/Cheney and all their henchmen for war crimes against the American people and against humanity! "We the People" are America, you pr%ck! We the People" don't torture other humans! "We the People" have the congress back; and you can get ready for a "Hat Trick" come 2008!
wiskawind 4 years ago