If people were rallied enough to do this, do you think that striking against major corporations would be an effective start to a purposeful revolution in changing the fiscal disparity?
What do you think people should do to achieve this desire of redistributing the wealth?
I think all the Occupy Movements are saying 'as a society we can do better' without offering a solution. Part of their concerns are focused on the robinhoodtax and Direct Democracy (voting on issues not representatives). I think the answer is to invent a complete new economic and societal system, rather than imposing more than a century old capitalism or socialism theories. But imposing a new theory is impossible. Thankfully the 'new system' (society/economics) seems to be self-evolving.
you are very good looking it is very hard to concentrtate and no i am not an idiot i have a 5.0 gpa and do interneships in hospitals point is im not stupid but you are very, very good looking just thought i should say that :D
HI. @rhymingwithoranges sent me. Love the title. Love the passion. But I think you failed to imagine Occupy Wall Street or the issues complexly. You ask them to come forth with a simple demand (as in, out with Mubarak, in with elections), but you know full well—and state eloquently—that the issues are complex. The movement is wise enough to know that simplistic answers are inadequate to the problem.
@mickeleh Please give the movement credit for imagining the problem complexly and not falling into an unthoughtful call for simplistic solutions. Vague as it may be, the movement has changed the political conversation in the US from debt and austerity, to economic injustice and jobs. This alone is a major achievement.
@mickeleh It's true, they haven't fallen into a call for simplistic change, and that is to their credit. And you're right, they have changed the conversation, which again is great. But I can't shake the feeling that the protests are lacking something. You're right, maybe calling them simplistic is overstating it. I didn't mean to make that the point of the video, but I still think the movement needs to be more introspective, analysing the failings of the 99% as well as the 1%.
@mickeleh My point was that kind of protest works with simple achievable goals that's what is was designed for, things like removing Mubarek. Tangible goals. What it doesnt deliver, is the broad, complex social changed required to solve their concerns.
In addition to this like I say in the video I dont think theyre attacking the real issue. Theyre the 99% looking up at the corporates as though it's only their fault. No, it's everyone's fault for allowing advertising money to influence politics
It was only today that I realised (from the radio) that the Occupy movement is deliberately apolitical. They distance themselves from radicals of all colours. What they want is for the bankers (I think it's the banks more than the corporations they're focussing on) to come up with their own reform. Why tell the banks how to run their business? It's obvious they've got it badly wrong and now they have to correct it. The pressure is there because it doesn't look as if they want to.
By Rosa Parks refusing to give up her sit on a bus she sparked a movement. No one knew what would happen, it wasn't required for that movement to provide a soundbite and a road map, or to be clear and have a plan. No one expected the movement to, four years later, evolve into a comprehensive civil rights act or, one year later, into the voting rights act. So, even if the Occupy end today, I think it is the spark of something, an awakening that, year later might evolve into something great.
@blurredsilence That is a defined aim, equality in official treatment of african americans, for example, not having to give up your seat on the bus. Occupy doesn't need a rad map, but it does need a goal beyond 'reduce this'. they were also very different forms of protest, OWS is the equivalent of Rosa Parkes refusing to get off the bus until her de,ands were met.
@Seamalicous my bad, i thought OWS's aim was pretty self evident: social equity, that is, improved standards of living through fair participation in gains. 'Reduce this' is just one of the ways they suggest equity might be achieved. check this article: globalguerrillas. typepad. com /globalguerrillas/2011/10/journal-why-the-us-middle-class-is-broken. html
intellectually stimulating as always! i agree alot with what you have to say about the 'occupy' movements. i'm not convinced of the simple lift and shift strategy of the international incarnations of the movement - especially down here in NZ. quite a few of my peers are involved with the occupy movements over here in NZ, and when questioned as to their goals for the protest i was truly surprised of the disparity of their answers.
Occupy wall street is all about critical thinking. And I think it has been successful, and will be in the future. It raises critical thinking no matter how much money you have, what religion you believe in and most importantly which state, country or continent you live at.
You know how you told me you missed me? Well, I missed you too. I have nothing to disagree with in this video. I am also bloody tired: so I'm happy for you to do the talking. Catch up some time.
Great to see another spark of life from your channel. Love the ever changing hair and that your still letting new petals of mind flower into new perspectives on reality. Seems you have a new environment around you?
You raise some really good points, but I disagree with you on one very important thing. The protestors do have a broader purpose than just calling attention to a principle. It's their response to the tea party movement and their call to action for the democrats in congress. They are waiting for taxes to be raised on the wealthy, for investments to be made in jobs, etc. This "silent majority," as they've recently been branded, is finally taking control, and that gives me hope as an American.
Very interesting point you make... The world has never, ever seen communications like we have today, characterized in its most extreem by an individual's ability to express a short but cogent thought to a gazillion other people instantly, 24 hours a day, and have it recorded for others to read as well. We do need to examing your questions about whether or not the way we organized our governments a couple hundred years ago, or more, meet the demands of that kind of interconnectivity. Well said!
(continued) We in the US have already provided lots of cover for these people. Extended unemployment benefits now are over 99 weeks. I have my own small business, so I don't get any government largesse. Maybe some of these whiners should do the same. And I am tired of hearing from the college grads who have a lot of debt--no one told them to take huge student loans, and maybe the college they went to was just plain inferior. You don't have to say "Don't get me wrong" so much., Cheers.
Wow..nice to see you again..looking better than ever. How old are you now? Anyway, you are quite correct that the Occupy movement is more a motley group of naysayers and protesters, with a smattering of anarchists and pro-Palestinian nuts tossed in for good measure. But what is their point, really? I think it is just to complain about their bad luck. Economies are good, and bad. If they lost their job, how is it some corporation's fault? Since when is there some "right" to a good job?
That was a really great comeback video. Many teenagers loose some of their impetus as they grow older, you acually gained some and you're still as sharp an forthright and as you used to be. Very encouraging to see you back on Youtube
the movement does have demands,very logical ones at that. i think that the problem we have in understanding the direction of the protests is the virtually non-existent media coverage that it has been granted. the media is not our friend and are masterful in their deception and twisting of our views and opinions. whats easier and more effective than arguing a point of view?distorting and dwarfing the issues being raised in the first place is. it is very tactful
@ianorourkeart Demands like, reducing the influence of corporations on the political system? I wouldn't call that well defined, it's logical, but you can't stage a sit in to reach an undefined aim.
@Seamalicous That is a very logical and obvious demand. But in no way is it the singular reason for these protests. I'm sensing somehow that you don't fully understand the extent of what this crash really was and how it came about, who won and who lost out and why. How these people are continuing to push laws for deregulation on derivatives etc. corporations are fine by me, they 'create' useful things!! but bankers have been creating their own money out of thin air, which everyone else pays for!
You’re such a clever little poppet. You must read books and stuff.
You "hit the nail on the head" the Occupy movement has good intention but lacks direction. If you are going to take on the top end of town you need a cunning plan with real achievable goals or else you are just making noise.
The issues the "Occupy" folks should home in on are:
1. the undue influence that major donor corporations have on politicians
2. the lack of sensitible regulations and oversight that would have prevented many of the economic problems we now face.
Reagan was the last president to actually put new controls of corporate behaviour. Every president since then (even Clinton) has been chipping away at the laws and enforcement mechanisms. Putting the horse back in the barn won't be easy.
1. As I say, is that really a function of the donations themselves, or the impact we allow paid advertising to have on us?
2. Australian. I win :P But seriously, that's very important, but in order for the protest to be effective they need to pick specific goals and hone in on them. If there's no way to end the protest, why would politicians really take their concerns seriously?
yes - we the people have made corporations as big as they are but you are missing the important fact that most of the population are manufactured idiots. again, not exactly our fault as it is educated ignorance. just look at the media and popular culture. ---- but the fact remains that financial institutions should be operating for the good of the people...not the good of those who run them alone. we do not live in a democracy, we actually live in a giant ponzi scheme. its that simple and sick
@ianorourkeart But it's down to individuals to change that, starting with the political system. But Occupy Wall St seem to be victimizing the public, without actual aims.
@Seamalicous its a very tall order. but the occupy wall street protesters are certainly not 'victimizing' people, that's a really ridiculous comment. these bankers plunged the entire world into a very serious recession, caused trillions of dollars worth of damage, 30 million people lost their jobs, cost the american public 160 billion dollars in taxes, ploughed their companies into the ground and ruined their country knowingly. and they walk away with their fortunes intact? Come on!
@ianorourkeart I look at victimization in a slightly odd way. What they're doing, is creating a victim complex about these things. We are subject to the system, the system damages us. I find it much more useful to empower people, not by waiting indefinitely in a square, but by saying, my life made the system, and by changing the way I conduct my everyday life, I can change it back.
@Seamalicous yea that's a good point mate, and I think that it's very important for us all to try and do that individually in some way. but i think that a:) its just not a possibility that everyone would do that b:) we would just be damaging our economies in return. we need to get these guys out - and change the entire system to a logical one. have you seen "inside job" with matt damon narrating? its very good (and scary), needs to be watched! you can torrent it. check out the youtube trailer
Long time, man. Good to see you back! It has always been a pleasure to engage your thoughts.
I see these protests as the beginning of what could be a long road - details to be defined as needed along the way. Right now, they are putting the politicians on notice. One of the biggest and most important challenges we face is to separate corporate money from both our political process AND our government. Ultimately these protests will translate into votes that move us in that direction.
@l0gically But votes for what? Most of the supporters define themselves as independant, and both sides of politics are guilty of what they're protesting against.... At the moment it seems like a hostage situation with no demands.
Fair question. Votes that sever the tie between corporate money, big media, and elections. In other words, when politicians have to start worrying about the fact that a well-funded campaign will mean far less than what they actually do while in office, we'll be moving in the right direction. I realize that this hasn't been specifically articulated by OWS, but it's certainly a fundamental problem.
@l0gically But is this movement really going to achieve that? I agree it's a problem, but it's not a problem with corporations, it's a problem with us, the people. The protests are directed the wrong way, and are aiming for a revolution, without concrete aims, and I'm not sure that it achieves it's purpose.
@Seamalicous "But is this movement really going to achieve that?"
I can't say that it will. And to be honest, the more I read, the less confident I am. I was reading an article just this morning about how politicians regularly embellish things like their military service, and once their dishonesty is discovered, voters just brush it off. So in some sense, I don't see any real change until voters pull their heads out of their arses.
@l0gically I agree that it possibly marks the beginning of something, a little warning signal from The People, but what Seamus is saying here is that people are too receptive to the gaudy advertisement campaigns. The fact that expensive ad campaigns equate to votes is the issue, and that's got more to do with the political apathy that voters have than some non-existent phenomenon that expensive campaigns equate to a better candidate.
@Idolsofwood Right. And it just might happen, because last I heard, the OWS has so far received about $350K in cash donations. This kind of funding (though it's miniscule in comparison to the campaigns), lends legitimacy to the effort, and could well lead to the kind of organization that will be necessary to make this happen.
"We have to find a way as people of engaging with topics as they are and not as they appear to be. It's not something that was better in the past. It's always been like that. Conversations about political Issues have never been straightforward and they should never be straightforward. But I just don't think that Occupy Wall Street is digging into the real issue here." - The question remaining is: As a frustrated protestor, what would you specifically ask for and do?
@tjostone I want to protest for the kind of thing John Stewart was advocating at the Rally to Restore Sanity this time last year, just some reason in any of this debate, and I don't think Occupy Wall St is adding that reason.
@Seamalicous So you would be the one who holds a big sign saying "Be reasonable! All of you."? Or how should a person go on about being the spark of reason?
Reason in my eyes is not to buy cars that pollute the environment, not to borrow money, not to buy devices, clothes, toys produced by means of exploitation, not to have planet-filling children, to spend money and time on education rather than on entertainment and fashion, to be aware of the things state and corporations do... but good luck.
@tjostone That's pretty close to my definition of reason. This is the reason I came back, so that I could record my thoughts for reason and discuss them with people. I'm coming back on the premise of trying to look at issues with a little more complexity than they get. So, adding voices that encourage balance in debates, and not balance in the sense of Fox News, countering (what they see as) extremist voices with more extremism, but actual balance, and I'm glad to know I'll have your help :)
@Seamalicous It'll be difficult. People are mostly not ready for that kind of reason. Me too. I have a computer, a mobile phone and other things the prices of which have probably profited from exploitation. It's hard too follow what my government and the corporations I buy from do - any real information is muffled by heaps of less important "news" or "advertisment". And I am distracted by what the people I care about care about. And I'm lazy and do what everyone does. Reason is hard.
@Seamalicous Do you really believe there can be a true democracy in a capitalistic nation? It doesn't make sense to me. When the "lawmakers" are being paid by the lobbyist?
@yescandles There can be, when we just make the money not matter. That's what I was talking about in the video, if the voters can look past the glitz of the advertising, then the influence of the corporations dramatically lessons. We can change this, without hysterical protests, but by genuinely researching and participating in politics.
Didn't you used to be extremely cute? Oh, you still are! Duh. Now then what were you saying..?
(j/k) I agree that corporations contribute to our well being, the issue is one of regulation. Unrestrained laissez faire capitalism is as crazy as communism. OWS is as well defined as Tea Party. The key is that they will begin to provide a focus for the middle class which is drastically weakened.
The problem I have with OWS is that there is no unified momentum. Their demands are nebulous and varied and the only real glue to their cause is that they are generally discontent with something fiscal. They have about a million enemies and their "movement" is too fragmented to be purposeful. That's not kool-aid drinking, that's pretty much the reality of the situation at this stage.
There's plenty to take to the streets about, they're just kinda doing it wrong.
@Idolsofwood Exactly, half the things they're protesting aren't even things you can protest against, falling agriculture prices for instance, it just doesn't have a direction that makes it something I can really believe in.
@Seamalicous Right. It's great that they're politically active and aren't anchored by the apathy that plagues most of the public, but they won't get anywhere this way.
And what the hell is with Occupy Melbourne? What do Australians have to complain about economically? Those people are utterly clueless.
By the way, this is your best video in terms of quality and message. I talked in PMs with you ages ago about the Whitlam Dismissal and other stuff, and you've gotten even sharper since.
@Idolsofwood Exactly, Occupy Melbourne is just ridiculous. We have stuff to winge about, but it's more the debate stuff that I was talking about, 'National Conversations' *shiver* I remember the PMs, great to see you're still active :) The idea of Occupying places is an ok one, but it has to be finite in some way I think.
@Seamalicous Did you watch Q&A from NT last week? It was awesome. The topics covered there are contentious enough for peaceful, advertisement-protests, and there are other issues worth taking to the streets about I guess, but if we're going to complain about how our economy works then we seriously need some perspective.
Do you have any idea what you're going to study (if anything)?
@Idolsofwood I've given up on QandA, the one good episode every now and then doesn't quite do it for me. As long as Sophie Mirrabella keeps popping up, I'll keep switching off. Sounds like a good one though, I might look it up on Iview. Yeah, our economy is in really great shape comparatively.
I'm looking to study either Law or Policy next year.
@Seamalicous Oh I love that shit. When politicians act like children it's just about one of the funniest things I see in a given week. Mirabella can drown in a nearby lake though.
You'd be suited to law. I was going to do that but settled for a finance degree. Avoid at all costs.
@Seamalicous Someone to make sense... well, how about Herman Cain? That guy makes perfect sense all the time and never contradicts himself ever.
I didn't know what to do, and it seemed a secure degree in terms of employment (it kinda isn't). If I could go back I would. I'd like to teach more than anything.
If people were rallied enough to do this, do you think that striking against major corporations would be an effective start to a purposeful revolution in changing the fiscal disparity?
What do you think people should do to achieve this desire of redistributing the wealth?
MIG800watts 2 months ago
I think all the Occupy Movements are saying 'as a society we can do better' without offering a solution. Part of their concerns are focused on the robinhoodtax and Direct Democracy (voting on issues not representatives). I think the answer is to invent a complete new economic and societal system, rather than imposing more than a century old capitalism or socialism theories. But imposing a new theory is impossible. Thankfully the 'new system' (society/economics) seems to be self-evolving.
markwhalanaus 2 months ago
you are very good looking it is very hard to concentrtate and no i am not an idiot i have a 5.0 gpa and do interneships in hospitals point is im not stupid but you are very, very good looking just thought i should say that :D
smartfreak97 3 months ago
HI. @rhymingwithoranges sent me. Love the title. Love the passion. But I think you failed to imagine Occupy Wall Street or the issues complexly. You ask them to come forth with a simple demand (as in, out with Mubarak, in with elections), but you know full well—and state eloquently—that the issues are complex. The movement is wise enough to know that simplistic answers are inadequate to the problem.
mickeleh 3 months ago
@mickeleh Please give the movement credit for imagining the problem complexly and not falling into an unthoughtful call for simplistic solutions. Vague as it may be, the movement has changed the political conversation in the US from debt and austerity, to economic injustice and jobs. This alone is a major achievement.
mickeleh 3 months ago
@mickeleh It's true, they haven't fallen into a call for simplistic change, and that is to their credit. And you're right, they have changed the conversation, which again is great. But I can't shake the feeling that the protests are lacking something. You're right, maybe calling them simplistic is overstating it. I didn't mean to make that the point of the video, but I still think the movement needs to be more introspective, analysing the failings of the 99% as well as the 1%.
Seamalicous 3 months ago
@mickeleh My point was that kind of protest works with simple achievable goals that's what is was designed for, things like removing Mubarek. Tangible goals. What it doesnt deliver, is the broad, complex social changed required to solve their concerns.
In addition to this like I say in the video I dont think theyre attacking the real issue. Theyre the 99% looking up at the corporates as though it's only their fault. No, it's everyone's fault for allowing advertising money to influence politics
Seamalicous 3 months ago
It was only today that I realised (from the radio) that the Occupy movement is deliberately apolitical. They distance themselves from radicals of all colours. What they want is for the bankers (I think it's the banks more than the corporations they're focussing on) to come up with their own reform. Why tell the banks how to run their business? It's obvious they've got it badly wrong and now they have to correct it. The pressure is there because it doesn't look as if they want to.
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
I'd have to agree, he is really cute.
crabby1113 3 months ago
@crabby1113 omg right ok i sound like such a hormonal teengae girl
smartfreak97 3 months ago
Im sorry my last comment sounded dumb... But im gonna check out the rest of ur videos and come up with better comments
ShiShi108 3 months ago
Ur cute ;)
U need to make videos more often
-American
ShiShi108 3 months ago
@ShiShi108 Yup, completely adorable.
HandInGlove2 3 months ago in playlist HandInGlove2's favorites
By Rosa Parks refusing to give up her sit on a bus she sparked a movement. No one knew what would happen, it wasn't required for that movement to provide a soundbite and a road map, or to be clear and have a plan. No one expected the movement to, four years later, evolve into a comprehensive civil rights act or, one year later, into the voting rights act. So, even if the Occupy end today, I think it is the spark of something, an awakening that, year later might evolve into something great.
blurredsilence 4 months ago
@blurredsilence That is a defined aim, equality in official treatment of african americans, for example, not having to give up your seat on the bus. Occupy doesn't need a rad map, but it does need a goal beyond 'reduce this'. they were also very different forms of protest, OWS is the equivalent of Rosa Parkes refusing to get off the bus until her de,ands were met.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous my bad, i thought OWS's aim was pretty self evident: social equity, that is, improved standards of living through fair participation in gains. 'Reduce this' is just one of the ways they suggest equity might be achieved. check this article: globalguerrillas. typepad. com /globalguerrillas/2011/10/journal-why-the-us-middle-class-is-broken. html
blurredsilence 4 months ago
you talk a lot of sense, and it's nice to have you back
LukeWoolley 4 months ago
intellectually stimulating as always! i agree alot with what you have to say about the 'occupy' movements. i'm not convinced of the simple lift and shift strategy of the international incarnations of the movement - especially down here in NZ. quite a few of my peers are involved with the occupy movements over here in NZ, and when questioned as to their goals for the protest i was truly surprised of the disparity of their answers.
glad you're back!
nevin117 4 months ago
Yay! Welcome back!
lewis8000 4 months ago
missed you buddy! welcome back .. don't disappear this time! ! ! Your comments were awesome as always! i'm sharing this on facebook
wwc04 4 months ago
Oops. Accidentally hot.
DivineGrief 4 months ago
Great comeback! Nice to hear your thoughts, don't disappear again!
johansabent 4 months ago
how's your parrot doing?
robkneff 4 months ago
Occupy wall street is all about critical thinking. And I think it has been successful, and will be in the future. It raises critical thinking no matter how much money you have, what religion you believe in and most importantly which state, country or continent you live at.
kaalimatozz 4 months ago
Comment removed
kaalimatozz 4 months ago
I suggest you watch my featured vid of Dylan Ratigan articulating some of the objectives of OWS. Then look into what Chris Hedges has said.
DynaCatlovesme 4 months ago
You know how you told me you missed me? Well, I missed you too. I have nothing to disagree with in this video. I am also bloody tired: so I'm happy for you to do the talking. Catch up some time.
rhymingwithoranges 4 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges Skype me sometime, now that you're back in the first world ;)
Seamalicous 4 months ago
Great to see another spark of life from your channel. Love the ever changing hair and that your still letting new petals of mind flower into new perspectives on reality. Seems you have a new environment around you?
JadeiteGracie 4 months ago
You raise some really good points, but I disagree with you on one very important thing. The protestors do have a broader purpose than just calling attention to a principle. It's their response to the tea party movement and their call to action for the democrats in congress. They are waiting for taxes to be raised on the wealthy, for investments to be made in jobs, etc. This "silent majority," as they've recently been branded, is finally taking control, and that gives me hope as an American.
theshortbassplayer 4 months ago
@theshortbassplayer That's a very interesting way of looking at it. Thanks for commenting :)
Seamalicous 4 months ago
Very interesting point you make... The world has never, ever seen communications like we have today, characterized in its most extreem by an individual's ability to express a short but cogent thought to a gazillion other people instantly, 24 hours a day, and have it recorded for others to read as well. We do need to examing your questions about whether or not the way we organized our governments a couple hundred years ago, or more, meet the demands of that kind of interconnectivity. Well said!
ehvee1 4 months ago
(continued) We in the US have already provided lots of cover for these people. Extended unemployment benefits now are over 99 weeks. I have my own small business, so I don't get any government largesse. Maybe some of these whiners should do the same. And I am tired of hearing from the college grads who have a lot of debt--no one told them to take huge student loans, and maybe the college they went to was just plain inferior. You don't have to say "Don't get me wrong" so much., Cheers.
nexttsar 4 months ago
Wow..nice to see you again..looking better than ever. How old are you now? Anyway, you are quite correct that the Occupy movement is more a motley group of naysayers and protesters, with a smattering of anarchists and pro-Palestinian nuts tossed in for good measure. But what is their point, really? I think it is just to complain about their bad luck. Economies are good, and bad. If they lost their job, how is it some corporation's fault? Since when is there some "right" to a good job?
nexttsar 4 months ago
That was a really great comeback video. Many teenagers loose some of their impetus as they grow older, you acually gained some and you're still as sharp an forthright and as you used to be. Very encouraging to see you back on Youtube
Insightcollector 4 months ago
@Insightcollector Haha, think I just got lucky today :) Thanks for the nice comment.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
the movement does have demands,very logical ones at that. i think that the problem we have in understanding the direction of the protests is the virtually non-existent media coverage that it has been granted. the media is not our friend and are masterful in their deception and twisting of our views and opinions. whats easier and more effective than arguing a point of view?distorting and dwarfing the issues being raised in the first place is. it is very tactful
ianorourkeart 4 months ago
@ianorourkeart Demands like, reducing the influence of corporations on the political system? I wouldn't call that well defined, it's logical, but you can't stage a sit in to reach an undefined aim.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous That is a very logical and obvious demand. But in no way is it the singular reason for these protests. I'm sensing somehow that you don't fully understand the extent of what this crash really was and how it came about, who won and who lost out and why. How these people are continuing to push laws for deregulation on derivatives etc. corporations are fine by me, they 'create' useful things!! but bankers have been creating their own money out of thin air, which everyone else pays for!
ianorourkeart 4 months ago
You’re such a clever little poppet. You must read books and stuff.
You "hit the nail on the head" the Occupy movement has good intention but lacks direction. If you are going to take on the top end of town you need a cunning plan with real achievable goals or else you are just making noise.
coollikeyodais 4 months ago
good to see you again :)
zaielle 4 months ago
The issues the "Occupy" folks should home in on are:
1. the undue influence that major donor corporations have on politicians
2. the lack of sensitible regulations and oversight that would have prevented many of the economic problems we now face.
Reagan was the last president to actually put new controls of corporate behaviour. Every president since then (even Clinton) has been chipping away at the laws and enforcement mechanisms. Putting the horse back in the barn won't be easy.
ProFriend 4 months ago
@ProFriend
1. As I say, is that really a function of the donations themselves, or the impact we allow paid advertising to have on us?
2. Australian. I win :P But seriously, that's very important, but in order for the protest to be effective they need to pick specific goals and hone in on them. If there's no way to end the protest, why would politicians really take their concerns seriously?
Seamalicous 4 months ago
yes - we the people have made corporations as big as they are but you are missing the important fact that most of the population are manufactured idiots. again, not exactly our fault as it is educated ignorance. just look at the media and popular culture. ---- but the fact remains that financial institutions should be operating for the good of the people...not the good of those who run them alone. we do not live in a democracy, we actually live in a giant ponzi scheme. its that simple and sick
ianorourkeart 4 months ago
@ianorourkeart But it's down to individuals to change that, starting with the political system. But Occupy Wall St seem to be victimizing the public, without actual aims.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous its a very tall order. but the occupy wall street protesters are certainly not 'victimizing' people, that's a really ridiculous comment. these bankers plunged the entire world into a very serious recession, caused trillions of dollars worth of damage, 30 million people lost their jobs, cost the american public 160 billion dollars in taxes, ploughed their companies into the ground and ruined their country knowingly. and they walk away with their fortunes intact? Come on!
ianorourkeart 4 months ago
@ianorourkeart I look at victimization in a slightly odd way. What they're doing, is creating a victim complex about these things. We are subject to the system, the system damages us. I find it much more useful to empower people, not by waiting indefinitely in a square, but by saying, my life made the system, and by changing the way I conduct my everyday life, I can change it back.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous yea that's a good point mate, and I think that it's very important for us all to try and do that individually in some way. but i think that a:) its just not a possibility that everyone would do that b:) we would just be damaging our economies in return. we need to get these guys out - and change the entire system to a logical one. have you seen "inside job" with matt damon narrating? its very good (and scary), needs to be watched! you can torrent it. check out the youtube trailer
ianorourkeart 4 months ago
@ianorourkeart The change I'm talking about is doing things like having debate about issues in a meaningful way, starting with youtube :)
Seamalicous 4 months ago
Long time, man. Good to see you back! It has always been a pleasure to engage your thoughts.
I see these protests as the beginning of what could be a long road - details to be defined as needed along the way. Right now, they are putting the politicians on notice. One of the biggest and most important challenges we face is to separate corporate money from both our political process AND our government. Ultimately these protests will translate into votes that move us in that direction.
l0gically 4 months ago
@l0gically But votes for what? Most of the supporters define themselves as independant, and both sides of politics are guilty of what they're protesting against.... At the moment it seems like a hostage situation with no demands.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous "But votes for what?"
Fair question. Votes that sever the tie between corporate money, big media, and elections. In other words, when politicians have to start worrying about the fact that a well-funded campaign will mean far less than what they actually do while in office, we'll be moving in the right direction. I realize that this hasn't been specifically articulated by OWS, but it's certainly a fundamental problem.
l0gically 4 months ago
@l0gically But is this movement really going to achieve that? I agree it's a problem, but it's not a problem with corporations, it's a problem with us, the people. The protests are directed the wrong way, and are aiming for a revolution, without concrete aims, and I'm not sure that it achieves it's purpose.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous "But is this movement really going to achieve that?"
I can't say that it will. And to be honest, the more I read, the less confident I am. I was reading an article just this morning about how politicians regularly embellish things like their military service, and once their dishonesty is discovered, voters just brush it off. So in some sense, I don't see any real change until voters pull their heads out of their arses.
l0gically 4 months ago
@l0gically I agree that it possibly marks the beginning of something, a little warning signal from The People, but what Seamus is saying here is that people are too receptive to the gaudy advertisement campaigns. The fact that expensive ad campaigns equate to votes is the issue, and that's got more to do with the political apathy that voters have than some non-existent phenomenon that expensive campaigns equate to a better candidate.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood "The People, but what Seamus is saying here is that people are too receptive to the gaudy advertisement campaigns"
And I would agree. But maybe OWS is the beginning of an age of enlightenment. It's too soon to tell.
l0gically 4 months ago
@l0gically Only if someone corrals it in the right direction from here. Or just a direction would be good.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood Right. And it just might happen, because last I heard, the OWS has so far received about $350K in cash donations. This kind of funding (though it's miniscule in comparison to the campaigns), lends legitimacy to the effort, and could well lead to the kind of organization that will be necessary to make this happen.
l0gically 4 months ago
"We have to find a way as people of engaging with topics as they are and not as they appear to be. It's not something that was better in the past. It's always been like that. Conversations about political Issues have never been straightforward and they should never be straightforward. But I just don't think that Occupy Wall Street is digging into the real issue here." - The question remaining is: As a frustrated protestor, what would you specifically ask for and do?
tjostone 4 months ago
@tjostone I want to protest for the kind of thing John Stewart was advocating at the Rally to Restore Sanity this time last year, just some reason in any of this debate, and I don't think Occupy Wall St is adding that reason.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous So you would be the one who holds a big sign saying "Be reasonable! All of you."? Or how should a person go on about being the spark of reason?
Reason in my eyes is not to buy cars that pollute the environment, not to borrow money, not to buy devices, clothes, toys produced by means of exploitation, not to have planet-filling children, to spend money and time on education rather than on entertainment and fashion, to be aware of the things state and corporations do... but good luck.
tjostone 4 months ago
@tjostone That's pretty close to my definition of reason. This is the reason I came back, so that I could record my thoughts for reason and discuss them with people. I'm coming back on the premise of trying to look at issues with a little more complexity than they get. So, adding voices that encourage balance in debates, and not balance in the sense of Fox News, countering (what they see as) extremist voices with more extremism, but actual balance, and I'm glad to know I'll have your help :)
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous It'll be difficult. People are mostly not ready for that kind of reason. Me too. I have a computer, a mobile phone and other things the prices of which have probably profited from exploitation. It's hard too follow what my government and the corporations I buy from do - any real information is muffled by heaps of less important "news" or "advertisment". And I am distracted by what the people I care about care about. And I'm lazy and do what everyone does. Reason is hard.
tjostone 4 months ago
@tjostone It is hard, but I feel that if we at least start talking the talk, then together we can walk the walk.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous And I'm glad that you're addressing the issue. :)
tjostone 4 months ago
BTW Obama has taken pride in having such a large percentage of his funding coming in small individual donations.
philipem01 4 months ago
@philipem01 For sure, he's raised from individuals, but I think the fact that the money is such a crucial factor is counterproductive to democracy.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous Do you really believe there can be a true democracy in a capitalistic nation? It doesn't make sense to me. When the "lawmakers" are being paid by the lobbyist?
yescandles 4 months ago
@yescandles There can be, when we just make the money not matter. That's what I was talking about in the video, if the voters can look past the glitz of the advertising, then the influence of the corporations dramatically lessons. We can change this, without hysterical protests, but by genuinely researching and participating in politics.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@philipem01 Presidential candidates are allowed $2500.00 per individual donation. His donations were as much from large groups as any of them.
yescandles 4 months ago
@yescandles There's simply too much money required for them to do anything else.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@yescandles But while I don't have the research in front of me I am pretty sure the vast amount of his contributions were under $100.
philipem01 4 months ago
Didn't you used to be extremely cute? Oh, you still are! Duh. Now then what were you saying..?
(j/k) I agree that corporations contribute to our well being, the issue is one of regulation. Unrestrained laissez faire capitalism is as crazy as communism. OWS is as well defined as Tea Party. The key is that they will begin to provide a focus for the middle class which is drastically weakened.
philipem01 4 months ago
@philipem01 Absolutely, regulation is paramount, but what regulations are these protests hoping to achieve?
Seamalicous 4 months ago
Wow Seamus, been a while.
The problem I have with OWS is that there is no unified momentum. Their demands are nebulous and varied and the only real glue to their cause is that they are generally discontent with something fiscal. They have about a million enemies and their "movement" is too fragmented to be purposeful. That's not kool-aid drinking, that's pretty much the reality of the situation at this stage.
There's plenty to take to the streets about, they're just kinda doing it wrong.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood Exactly, half the things they're protesting aren't even things you can protest against, falling agriculture prices for instance, it just doesn't have a direction that makes it something I can really believe in.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous Right. It's great that they're politically active and aren't anchored by the apathy that plagues most of the public, but they won't get anywhere this way.
And what the hell is with Occupy Melbourne? What do Australians have to complain about economically? Those people are utterly clueless.
By the way, this is your best video in terms of quality and message. I talked in PMs with you ages ago about the Whitlam Dismissal and other stuff, and you've gotten even sharper since.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood Exactly, Occupy Melbourne is just ridiculous. We have stuff to winge about, but it's more the debate stuff that I was talking about, 'National Conversations' *shiver* I remember the PMs, great to see you're still active :) The idea of Occupying places is an ok one, but it has to be finite in some way I think.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous Did you watch Q&A from NT last week? It was awesome. The topics covered there are contentious enough for peaceful, advertisement-protests, and there are other issues worth taking to the streets about I guess, but if we're going to complain about how our economy works then we seriously need some perspective.
Do you have any idea what you're going to study (if anything)?
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood I've given up on QandA, the one good episode every now and then doesn't quite do it for me. As long as Sophie Mirrabella keeps popping up, I'll keep switching off. Sounds like a good one though, I might look it up on Iview. Yeah, our economy is in really great shape comparatively.
I'm looking to study either Law or Policy next year.
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous Oh I love that shit. When politicians act like children it's just about one of the funniest things I see in a given week. Mirabella can drown in a nearby lake though.
You'd be suited to law. I was going to do that but settled for a finance degree. Avoid at all costs.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago
@Idolsofwood I couldn't handel the depression anymore, I just wanted someone to make sense.
oooo... hard luck... Why finance?
Seamalicous 4 months ago
@Seamalicous Someone to make sense... well, how about Herman Cain? That guy makes perfect sense all the time and never contradicts himself ever.
I didn't know what to do, and it seemed a secure degree in terms of employment (it kinda isn't). If I could go back I would. I'd like to teach more than anything.
Idolsofwood 4 months ago