Wow everyone posting on this thread is confusing his thesis that college degrees are impratical with the supposed thesis of "you shouldn't go to college."
I am continually amazed that people are willing to earn and save enormous amounts to pay the exhorbitant yearly tuition for the sacred cow of college. Sure, right now, everyone's drunk the Kool-aid, so you may get penalized without it. But is that reason enough to keep this stodgy old baccalaureate system going?
Murray gets it right---the B.A. is BS. It's time to get free of the mental box we've been residing in and get creative about higher education.
self taught is a lost art not many people are programmed to learn anything they want with out going to college. the knowledge is there. internet, books, library's, amazon.com has books on where you can learn to make your own device to diagnostic your own car, with out buying the device for a price. YOU, have to put in the effort! start getting out there and seeing what you can learn.
America's financial system, industries, and governments are run by guys who got their B.A. degrees in political science or business administration or economics and similar bullpuckey subject areas.
Effectively none of them foresaw the 2007-2008 collapse of the residential housing bubble.
The one prominent person who did - and spoke about it without fear or hesitation - was Ron Paul, who got his undergrad degree in biology and went on to medical school to become a doctor.
@sundancekid122 Theoretically you need to registered as a PE, but my boss has failed several times to pass the test and as she passed me in promotion, even though I have been liscensed for nearly a decade
I would say in about 5-8 years from now, Mr, Ray, will be working for me! Get prepared, Mr. Ray, because I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????
Do you work in cross border IT consultancy? Do you trade directly with IBM? Are you into Dell? Do you know how to Trade Options Futures Forex & stocks? Are you going to bring me a company to buy? If you answered no to any of those YOU WILL NEVER EMPLOY ME, I am a CEO of two companies and I own them you racist cunt
I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????
@AtheosRecords what kind of a reply is that? I reply with science and you reply with banalities, punctuated with some kind of belief that you have won the argument before it has begun?
Please jackass skank... you are no educated mind... that is why I have nothing to discuss with you.
Chat fact and scientific issues and youd be lost with me, unless you know the difference between an Assay and an essay? No didnt think so . racist skank.lol wtf do u think you are? You're a nothing.
The invention of the internet really changed things.
Without it college would seem a lot more necessary to me. But since the age of 8 a simple google search has offered me more knowledge than school ever has.
@imanintelect That is really shortsighted and narrowminded thinking. It isnt about memorizing random pieces of information--its a venue for improvement, whether it be critical thinking, writing or speaking. There are some idiots who graduated-no doubt. But they will be thinned out. They wont hold a candle to the ones who took full advantage of the entire higher ed. system. Most Universities are a network-dont sell it short thinking its all nonsense.
@MultiHellojohn You dont have to agree completely. Just understand that theres more than one way to learn. One can learn from an instructor and other students as well as reading and online video tutoring. I do think College is more about earning money, but there are loopholes in the system that we can exploit.
shut up you silly fool. you wouldnt keep up..you dare to call me psuedo-scientific and yet look at the nonsensical video you support. Tell me,how do any of these tests select for black or white when we have no definition in science of a black or white person? Fuck off and think that through before you even begin to attempt to try that shit with me jackass
Just not prepared to waste my time with a jackass who thinks a degree means little. lol Clearly uttered from someone who hasn't experienced the process.
@MacPr0xnxx0 no your not. People should be jealous of you. In 10 years, you could be help to run a state. Forget these idiots on here. Finish Poli Sci, get an internship, and someone will end up paying for your law degree.
Actually I'm LIVING PROOF that you don't need college to earn a decent living.
I took a civil service test (only high school diploma required) in 2003, and now I got a job as a NYC subway train operator.
My base salary is $66,674, but there are so many extras ("bonus time", "deadhead time", etc) that regularly boost my annual salary to over 70K for only 40hrs work.
If I put in the amount of hours the average corporate drone does I would easily earn six figures.
diversifying students is why most colleges will say they require 32 credits, which in Lehman terms means more classes for students to take....thus more paid professors.....thus more money for the college and the unnecessary college courses teachers supposedly teach.
you achieve goals from confidence,persistance and mindset, and not from doing what people tell you, such as "You have to go to college if you ever wanna get anywhere in this world." This is what separates the successful from the unsuccessful, and I'm thankful I learned this at such an early age.
@Quex01 and my neighbor bob and friend didnt go to college and they now work at wal-mart making minium wage.....there are very few people that did stuff without going to college majority of people that don't go to college don't invent things or become well known
@thatguy126 I know people that went to college, and still ended up in $9.00 an hour jobs. I should know, I meet them all the time at my security job. Almost everyone there has a degree/B.A., or is getting one.
@TheMedievalMan valid point...all i was trying to do is say how the argument of a "few successful people that did not go to college should be enough persuasion for someone else not to go to college" is not a very strong one
Disregard my previous statement because I've just realized that I did learn a lot of valuable things even though I learned more outside of college. I would never discourage someone from pursuing their education. However, I also understand that college is not for everyone. College is a perfect setting to be around other intellectual minds and exchange ideas with them. College is not only valuable from what you learn inside the classroom. It's also valuable in regards to the interaction.
@Ilikemustard Do you know whats funny? The fact that the public library is payed for by taxes, and that anyone with a card can go in and become an autodidact self educated. How many do you know take advantage of it?
@MultiHellojohn Oh yeah, you mean that part in the bar where he argues with that guy about agrarian/capitalist societies in history or whatever. And then he says about overpriced education vs $1.50 library card, I think is what he says. I watched that movie not too long ago. Havent you ever noticed when a movie gets brought up by someone, for some odd coincidence, its a movie you watched relatively recently?
@TheMedievalMan How would someone even know what to look for with just a library card? I don't mean subject headings, I mean, how does one determine which materials are worthwhile and which are too shallow to be of use without wasting a great deal of time?
@scottandrewhutchins I disagree. College has become a money making scam. Most who acquire degrees in certain fields, dont even use it for what they studied for. I know of a guy I was friends with in High School. He came back with a Masters, and got a job working for the Supermarket I used to work for. He couldnt find anything else. My Mother knows a friend with enough education to be a lawyer, shes unemployed and in debt. I wouldnt go because its a waste of my money.
@TheMedievalMan I thought that way the first few years out of grad school, but now one of my grad school colleagues is paying to relocate me to work for him.
Again, my point was that autodidacticism is necessarily restricted because it has no external guidance. It's extremely valuable, but when it's entirely self-driven, you often ignore things you should be looking at.
@scottandrewhutchins True, but thats why I try and look at things from an outside-the-box view. I read as much as I can on the opposite side of what I personally believe. If I want to attack Feminism for example, I look at Feminist authors. If I want to attack Afro-centric pseudo-history. I look at what Afro-centric authors have to say. If you read more on the opposing view, you will be more knowledgeable than those who only read what their own side tells them.
@scottandrewhutchins I consider myself a "traditional free-thinker". Conservatism & Progressivism has had many different meanings throughout history, it changes even among generations. To be conservative is to follow yesterdays trends & ideas, to be progressive is to create new ones. Chesterton said tradition is the democracy of the dead, its the ideas that have proven to work over time. One should be careful about following too strictly any political/social ideology.
@TheMedievalMan you know what i dont get. why do so many people force their kids in to college? they should be teaching their kids HOW to think for themselves rather than WHAT to think at college what the hell? i never understood it
@MultiHellojohn Many of these parents want whats best for their children. And they have been led to believe by their culture that whats best is lots of college. College is good, but like all things, it can be misused & too much can become wasteful, like drinking alcohol. The best kind of college is a two year degree in a community college. But the degree has become like the second high school diploma now that so many people are doing it. I'll eventually attend when I have the time & money.
@Ilikemustard Not true. It depends on what you are learning. Studying by yourself has its limits. Interaction with others (students and teachers) can go a long way to enhance learning. Much of our adult lives revolve around interaction with others. College costs have skewed the importance, but degrees are not unimportant.
@Ilikemustard Except for they still are required by many scientific fields for good and no you can't teach yourself differential equations nor can you test yourself on differential equations.
How can you not teach yourself differential equations? Is there some magical force preventing you from teaching yourself differential equations? There are plenty of resources on the internet.
Yes, I already know differential equations (I was taught them in university, but they are irrelevant to my profession, computer science, so I don't even need to know them).
@Ilikemustard Yes, its quite difficult to attempt to learn without a person who has already master it and guide you through a formulated process. They are actually relevant to computer game physics and topographic maps like temperature. You may have never used them but they are relevant.
If I ever needed to use them (and I didn't know how to use them yet) I would learn how to use them. And I would probably be more efficient about it than my university.
@Ilikemustard Let me repeat myself once again... its quite difficult to teach yourself differential equations. It's certainly not impossible but its tremendously difficult to learn that level of mathematics without another person such as a tutor or teacher to evaluate you in order to see if you actually understand it. There's certainly no laws preventing me from joining the NFL but that doesn't mean I can given my level of fitness or in academia's world: intellect.
Thank God. Until now i thought i was the only one who wasn't being brainwashed. Even my parents say get a degree - no one will hire you without it - its the only way you'll succeed. I wish that they had an open mind like me. But there brainwashed because they come home from their crappy job and watch tv and go to bed, and go to their crappy jobs. This is the life of those that don't question the truth that they are being fed. I do not want to end up like this.
hey man when it comes time to try to live and work outside of the US you will find countries will not trust you enough to allow you a visa because yea educational background kinda matters.. Anyway cheers and goodluck
@FaidleyEthan this was on top comments so i saw this....your parents are not completely wrong you should get a degree so you can have the CHOICE of working a crappy job or not
bottom line people, what we truly desire is not "KNOWLEDGE" it is higher salaries. in other words-"MONEY". think about it, at the end of the day, what pays the bills, rent, taxes, child support, mortage, food, gas, shoes, clothes, ...etc? exactly, it is money, not some paper known as a degree, no matter what level it is. if we as americans truly desire knowledge, the 1# hobby in this country would be "READING", not watching T.V, movies, surfing the internet, and of course shopping.
I went to college and it was fun and I learned stuff, but nothing that I could not have learned on my own much more cheaply or for free. We live in a society drowning in information. Also college did not teach me how to think well. It was life that did that.
I joined the military for college in 2002. Now while in graduate school I discovered that most of my classmates are less intelligent than the people I served in the Navy with. My military service so far has been monetarily rewarding than my BA in sociology. I work as a laborer and going to a grad program in education. My classmate's historical knowledge is laughable at best. Sadly I feel getting a masters in education is pointless because of the war on unions and austerity measures.
great points i remember getting on the job training for basic computer programming for my current job and knew a few friends who took semesters learning stuff i learned in almost a month!
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
Fastest way to drive down the value of a university education is to educate more people and issue more degrees. Supplying more graduates (no matter what the career path) without increasing demand will surely lead to lower wages and a lot of frustrated uemployed grads.
College measures how willing you are to give up time to the system. That's why employers look at how well you do in college. They want people who are used to being strained and being told what to do. So the problem is really with careers in general, and who can change that.
We have to stop building education around buildings. The "virtual" classroom redefines education & teaching methodology. It's not necessary for one teacher to repeat a lecture multiple times daily before a limited live audience or have multiple teachers lecturing on the same course. Also, the "urbanization" of primary education which aggregates student populations, over time, increases tensions & costs for no other reason except to centralize which is not necessary for a quality education.
Also, doesn't this encourage people to cheat and do whatever it takes to get a piece of paper minted?
It's weird people say you learn people skills and how to live on your own. What's a job and an apartment for? That's real life right there, not a place with amenities. That sounds like vacation to me and you pay for that more than education.
It seems like a delaying of growing up. Yet, they say you grow up there. Then, you get penalized by debt. Not everyone can be laws, docs, and engineers.
Obama's drive for universal university education smacks too closely to national military service in more authoritarian regimes such as Iran or North Cyprus,the purpose of which is really indoctrination of national ideology, not personal&national security or well being as it is made to appear to be.
this man SPEAKETH the truth. I'm a management major but for some reason my university thinks its cool or whatever to make me take classes like astronomy 101 and history......and my question is...
Let's continue to improve the system and improve the country by making knowledge more accessible via youtube. Less importance on the paper and more importance on knowledge and relationships.
@whichdegree4me Actually youtube isn't really the answer. We just need to make hubs more sophisticated and widely more open sourced. Why give youtube your videos when you can have bandwidth from all over. Think of it as a torrent of sources in one place on multiple subjects all open-sourced. It would be on a global scale. OSINT by Robert D Steele has some merit. He has an hour lecture on here. It's pretty loaded and you may disagree.
This guy is right and i'll use art for an example. Art college's are just too high over 100,000 dollors for a 4 year degree that's just nuts. Why waist the money sure you can learn neat stuff in game design and animation but you can also learn that on your own. Just pen up your own studo hire profosonal artist to teach you and try out for a company because trust me tey won't pass out on great talent they don't really care about education.
I know alot of people that went to college.They make less than me and there in debt up to there eyeballs in loans.It works out for alot of people but it doesn't seem to go that well for alot more out there.Seems like a sick joke being played on people.If you have a 4 yr degree i feel you should make $75 plus a year.If not you wasted your time imo.For the record i'm a lineman that makes $50 plus with a general highschool diploma.Thats above average for my area.Charlotte N.C.
Bravo! This man is sensible. Ladies and Gentlemen, I was homeschooled. The bottom line is that I never did an ounce of school work after the age of 12 or 13, and my curriculum was spotty even before that. Nevertheless, I still managed to score above average in English and Grammar on my ACT. The fact is that the practical knowledge necessary to succeed in life is seldom covered by formulized school algorithms. It is learned from experience.
I have an idea! Videotape college professors' lectures, AND/OR put them on CD-ROM/DVD , make plenty of them, and you can rent for FREE at the PUBLIC LIBRARY! Only show up for tests and final! Only attend for classes with LABS (e.g. chemistry, biology). Have options to RENT textbooks/organize to rent/share cost with friends! Get "PowerPoint slides" of instructor lectures, too! Nope, that would put college professors and colleges out of PROFIT!
@ticks4ticks4 Too late it's already happening. They have lectures series from top universities on DVD at some of the public libraries. I learn best on my own. And through discourse.
The title is an inaccurate description of the clip. He just says that the current system is a waste and we should just have to take only the classes we need.
This is why GE's are bull crap. We should be able to take the classes just for our major. This alone would cut the amount of time we spent in college.
My cousin and her husband is in 300k debt total, both are Doctors. But not making that much in return. How long do you think it's going to take them to pay back, 50 years?
@mikester9er I don't think so. It' will take much longer than that. You have to put in consideration that they now have kids, mortgage loan, car loan, bills, and INTEREST. As far as i know, they don't even make that much as we think.
Isn't it a little unfair that Murray went to Havard University and after went on to get a P.D to now be telling others that they don't need university. Murrary choose to enrich himself in a rich educational enviornment. Graduates are statistically more likely to earn more money than non-graduates.
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 It might not necessarily be why they earn more money. It could be that those people are smart and are bound to be successful anyway and only go to college because society tells them that that is what smart people do.
@91BROWNIE91 It's surely true that graduates do have above average IQs. However a rich educational environment must help too. Also in order to access the very top incomes, except for sport, it seems to me that you must at the very least be a graduate, otherwise companies will not be interested in you. If somebody was very clever but never went to university I do think it would be much harder for him/her to do equally as well as somebody just as clever as him who did go to university.
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 Yes you're rite. I've seen a lot of this stuff on the internet about how college is unecesarry and a waste of time but me personally, I'm going to stick it out anyway I'm already finished with my freshmen year. And my mother makes barely any money so every dime of my university schooling is covered by free grants so I would be stupid not to go.
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 I received a BA in Systems Programming at a non-traditional college/technical institute and for every Junior Developer job I’ve applied for (it appears that my BA is not good enough) or entry-level Developer job—companies are not interested in my credentials (BA) as they are in my lack of experience, therefore, I’ve agree with Murray’s conclusions and proposition.
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 Like Murray said.... it's easier when you have an academic environment, your parents can afford it, etc... not everyone gets into harvard and gets a P.D
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 He said that if a student had the time and the financial freedom to go for more than a few years he knew it could be a good investment. It's for all the students that don't have those things working in their favor that he believes a year or two would sufice for ( at least when it comes to entering most career fields).
He's not putting the educational system on trial but employers. It's totally true that once jobs in the early 90's required a BA or BS now require Masters. Seriously, you cannot even be seen for an interview at GOOGLE or YAHOO or ILM, PIXAR without a super high degree of education. That's their business platform and it could be applauded or frowned upon. I don't know but it seems like more and more of the upper class gets dibs on the most lucrative jobs. 2 degrees and no work for 2 years. Thanks
@Jinxguy1000 Only a fool who doesnt have a degree in the first place would utter and dismiss its value. The truth is that a degree shapes your mind, it opens up methodology and approaches to thinking that stay with you for the rest of your life. Sure, it can be developed without a degree but dont forget the value you gain interacting daily with people of similar mind.
@Raybanmonster Charles Murray graduated w/ a BA in History from Harvard, and a PhD in Poly Sci from MIT. If you spent 30 seconds researching the person making the comments in this video, you would have known this.
@Raybanmonster "Only a fool who doesnt have a degree in the first place would utter and dismiss its value." - you
Well, Charles Murray has a degree. From a prestigious school. Two, actually. He dismisses the value. Your entire comment was void of substance after this.
So what? you are entitled to your opinion. Good for you. Now when you have a factual and sensible point to make , make it and stop the personal nonsense..
@jrsub3 I think the main issue at heart here is that education is good in that it provides a framework for an approach to thinking, a method to approach problem solving and that pattern tends to stay with you throughout life and it is an definite ADVANTAGE. That ISNT to say people cannot attain various or better forms of that skill themselves, if they are inclined to want to develop such skill directly or indirectly themselves some deliberate some as a consequence of current endeavours.
Bachelor degrees as an academic foundation provide training in transferable skills, which a straightforward knowledge based vocational accreditation does not ordinarily offer. In an economy where the technological knowledge is said to double every seventy two hours, and where most of the jobs in the next decade probably dont exist yet; it is essential that we train tomorrows generation in broad based academic process skills, rather than just stuffing their heads with transitional data.
The core economic value of Higher Learning Institution is not the number of BA graduates it produces but the quality of its research base; and in particular those aspects most associated with raising the scientific and technological capabilities of the society. In most universities the research departments are effectively subsidised by the bachelor fees and to a greater extent by liberal arts majors because these courses are extremely cost effective to put on.
That's a good point. Its sort of an educational Catch22: In order to denounce a BA, you need to have a BA to be seen as having gravitas on the subject.
I don't know where logloglife went but he/she made good logical points.
Again, I point out the obvious: Murray is a Harvard grad.
It is easy for people who have degrees to say that education doesn't matter. Unfortunately, it does matter. A number of jobs require a Bachelor's degree and unless you want to buy a fake one, you need to go to college to get certain jobs and careers.
Being a freelance writer, I can tell you that having a college degree matters.
Being someone who formally did freelance writing without a degree, i can confirm that it indeed helps to have a degree as your work, no matter the strength of it, is ill taken seriously.
Sad but true. I went to a small state college where I got a BA degree and when I was writing and working in Seattle even smaller weekly, community and ethnic publications pretty much required a BA as a starting point-for freelance work.
That's what surpised me a little-smaller pubs requiring a degree. I think its part of the weeding out process that has taken place in the job market.
It makes more sense to hire a college-educated freelancer than one with a HSD though its nonsense.
It's a pretty good point. Why does engineering take just as long as pottery? 4 years is simply too long. I don't get the mystical number 4 as if people grasp it in 4 years. Not everyone is a mathematician and those who are should go to college with other mathematicians to converse over math ideas. Education isn't bad, you can get it from a library. Also, I don't see how 4 years of school automatically makes you stand out. There is no way to measure what is really being learned.
Education is not a waste of time. It is the institutionalized, bureaucratic system which holds a monopoly on intelligence certification (in essence what a degree is) that is the waste. 300 student classes, Scantron cards, debt, and for what? Society would benefit more if there were more libraries and gathering spaces that weren't attached to a commercial function.
Education historically has always been for the rich. Modern day colleges and Universities are still dominated by the rich and act as a filtration system because the world needs its ditch diggers.
As a hiring manager, some of the dumbest people that come into my office have college degrees. A college degree says nothing to me without work history.
It would help if the commercials for vocational schools didn't feature people who seem kinda retarded. It adds to the idea that vocational schools are to be laughed at. The way they over do trying to have an appeal to "that kind of person". It's embarrassing.
Yeah, but why parade it? I guess "they" can't tell the difference... but I hate feeling embarrassed *for* other people when they're being fatuous. I don't have tv for that reason. The commercials are just way too insipid and it's stressful.
I am sorry you are so sensitive. Actually, "they" (why was they put in quotes it is a well defined group of people) probably don't care as long as they have job opportunities.
Honestly, I don't see why either is bad. In general people have come to accept that some people are smarter than others (ironically Murrays the bell curve supports this idea). If they don't know that is probably better for them (less humiliation, if they even care). I know a welder who doesnt abhor his status or engage in self-loathing, he freely admits he is not intellectually inclined and he seems perfectly happy (albeit in the vacuous ignorance is bliss sort of way).
The government has educational programs as described by Charles Murray. It's called the military training programs. Cut out all the BS and teach what you really need to know to do your specific job. The rest of it can be learned OJT. One of the most successful programs is the US Navy Nuclear Engineering Program.
And by the time you're out of elementary and grammar school, your desire to learn has been so flattened it's no wonder that kids who go to college of an attitude of, "look, I just wanna get this done and get the degree and get the job, ok. Don't pester me with 'the wonder of learning'". The only thing you learn in school is how to obey orders.
I don't really openly discuss my plans with them, because I don't really fit into their league.
I really don't care if they think I'm less intelligent than them. Technical school is more practical, and at least I'll have work while they're drowning in student loans unemployed.
I've read some of the other comments. It's good to see other people who are down-to-earth. If only my friends were like you.
It's all such a fun experience, but when you put on that cap and gown, and are handed that piece of paper, you owe a ton of money, and nobody wants to hire you because you don't have any practical skills.
It just becomes a fancy piece of paper.
I'm quite different from my friends. In fact, I might be the only one that has a practical mindset. You know, one that doesn't plan on wasting time and money on rubbish.
@independence442 Even if someone does want to hire you... it doesn't take 4 years to learn how to be a librarian, or to use an x-ray machine... School is a jobs creation scheme. So many unnecessary jobs would go away if University wasn't bloated with all kinds of easy A majors. Today, the University is a way to make jobs for "professors" etc. and to make billions for loan lenders, and the govt. (Obama) takes its marching orders from the bankers.
At least at technical school you'll learn something useful.
I'm so glad that I followed my senses not to go to a university. It's expensive, and you are forced to take courses unrelated to your major that are useless in reality.
Sadly, all of my friends are jumping on the college bandwagon. Quite a few are majoring in something totally worthless, and they'll get 50K+ into debt. Who's gonna hire them?
At least at technical school you'll learn something useful.
I'm so glad that I followed my senses not to go to a university. It's expensive, and you are forced to take courses unrelated to your major that are useless in reality.
Sadly, all of my friends are jumping on the college bandwagon. Quite a few are majoring in something totally worthless, and they'll get 50K+ into debt. Who's gonna hire them?
He speaks the truth. The BA is overrated. It's not really right to call someone a dummy just because they don't have one. You don't need a BA to be smart.
Look at Bill Gates. He doesn't have a college degree, but look where he is today!
Also, a BA doesn't have much worth in the real world. An employer doesn't care what crazy subjects you studied at college, they want you to have taken courses related to the field!
All college does is train you to be a disciplined employee. It doesn't round you out. You don't even learn crap. I have a degree in business and can't remember crap!!! All college does is trains you for 4 years to be on time, meet deadlines, and work hard....same thing you're gonna do in the corporate world and that's what employers are gonna want! ...slaves!
I fully believe college is a waste of time and money. I have 4 friends who are college grads and I didn't even finish high school and I make twice what they make. Granted their is no way most people get that lucky but there goes 100% of my motivation to ever open a text book again.
Do you not understand the logical fallacy present in your argument? If your friends are not intelligent/motivated enough to do well in college than college is not the problem they are. Similarly, if they are not interested in jobs that have a ba requisite or academics then they shouldn't have gone. How is college a waste for a prospective research mathematician?
I've learned more from the internet and the discovery channel than I did my first two years of college. I agree fully with this video. Why make students repeat high school classes for two years just so you can get to your core classes. By the time you get there you are basically depressed and don't care anymore. My first two years killed my motivation and made me not want to continue my education.
@GTRrocker666 ..Bullshit useless impractical bullshit classes ..they dont prepare for the working world..it is a crock of shit!!!..and theres no jobs anyway..u learn nothing like high school..its a fuckin money makin lie..and they fail u over bullshit..meticulous critical teachers that are assholes..your gunna need a Ph D to work in Burger King soon
@GTRrocker666 The goal is to have young people BY THE BALLS!
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
@centurion180ad nah, I think liberal politcans just have a utopia mentailtiy which is why you have the idea of "all to college"... Not a banker conspiracy
@GTRrocker666 I agree the history channel and discovery channel are great sources of information... Keep in mind if they didn't show actual facts, then people would tune out and hence loose money... You dont see this economic system in ideological professors... Which is why they fail
if i want to be a quantum physicists then i should only have to take classes THAT HAVE TO DO with quantum physics. NOT ENGLISH NO HISTORY quantum physics
i want to be a historian so what do i need HISTORY CLASSES and some basic college lvl english. not math... not a "foreign language"
Yeah scientific literacy is pointless..... Its not like technology is becoming more and more prevalent in our society,and in a democratic society people should not have even elementary knowlege of science. In fact who needs high school most people don't use algebra or need to learn about literature. In fact people only need to learn how to read and write on a basic level lets just throw most children into trade schools after 6th grade.
Arguments about this tend to be tragi-comedies because people are proceeding from the false assumption that forced schooling is necessary to "git an education". The kids who grew up in the 80s when computers came on the scene became whiz kids without classes. If it's out there in the world and relevant to people's lives, especially kids, they're going to master it as long as you stay out of their way. School (as we have them) just aren't necessary for humans.
Good idea actually. Technology can be more easily learned in small courses designed to teach people to use more or less the exact things they need to know for the work they are doing. It's impossible to prepare people for everything and chances are by the time they've been in the workforce for 5 years they'll have forgotten most of what they learned and the rest will be outdated.
Hell, my grandfather designed an electrical substation with a 6th grade formal education and a whole lot of reading.
fuck college I don't need it you don't need it you just need a plan and pull it off.
TheTrueLeaderOfAll 1 week ago
Only go to college to become a doctor.
Anything else is a waste of time and money.
StanwoodSpartans 2 months ago
Well Said!!
ReverendDoGood 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Knowledge must be nurtured.
6lue5kies 2 months ago
This is man who gets it.
lindsaymccutcheon 2 months ago
Wow everyone posting on this thread is confusing his thesis that college degrees are impratical with the supposed thesis of "you shouldn't go to college."
movcrit 3 months ago
I am continually amazed that people are willing to earn and save enormous amounts to pay the exhorbitant yearly tuition for the sacred cow of college. Sure, right now, everyone's drunk the Kool-aid, so you may get penalized without it. But is that reason enough to keep this stodgy old baccalaureate system going?
Murray gets it right---the B.A. is BS. It's time to get free of the mental box we've been residing in and get creative about higher education.
cellwaves 3 months ago
One good thing about being self taught is that at least it is free to learn and you don't have to worry about having to pay back the student loan.
Mrbrianjohnson951 3 months ago
self taught is a lost art not many people are programmed to learn anything they want with out going to college. the knowledge is there. internet, books, library's, amazon.com has books on where you can learn to make your own device to diagnostic your own car, with out buying the device for a price. YOU, have to put in the effort! start getting out there and seeing what you can learn.
rukus100821 3 months ago
He is absolutely right I got my degree just to get noticed by employers but didn't learn a dam thing in college everything I know is self taught.
JimmyRose1 4 months ago
AGREEEEED!!!
talleyho12 4 months ago
Let's see....
America's financial system, industries, and governments are run by guys who got their B.A. degrees in political science or business administration or economics and similar bullpuckey subject areas.
Effectively none of them foresaw the 2007-2008 collapse of the residential housing bubble.
The one prominent person who did - and spoke about it without fear or hesitation - was Ron Paul, who got his undergrad degree in biology and went on to medical school to become a doctor.
Hm.
RichMatarese 4 months ago 4
Only problem is the damn employers demand degrees for the sake of a paper. It's a catch-22.
Superseadragon 5 months ago
@Superseadragon I have two degrees and I managed to get 22 interviews from several thousand resumes. I think only cronies can get hired these days.
scottandrewhutchins 1 month ago
@scottandrewhutchins so it seems
Superseadragon 1 month ago
This guy is doing good work in discouraging you retards from pursuing higher education. Kudos to him.
toxzen 6 months ago
yeah but you need a piece of paper to practice engineering. FAIL
sundancekid122 6 months ago
@sundancekid122 Theoretically you need to registered as a PE, but my boss has failed several times to pass the test and as she passed me in promotion, even though I have been liscensed for nearly a decade
USExceptionalism 6 months ago
This guy reminds me of Alexander Hamilton
Freedom21stCenturi 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords
I would say in about 5-8 years from now, Mr, Ray, will be working for me! Get prepared, Mr. Ray, because I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????
Do you work in cross border IT consultancy? Do you trade directly with IBM? Are you into Dell? Do you know how to Trade Options Futures Forex & stocks? Are you going to bring me a company to buy? If you answered no to any of those YOU WILL NEVER EMPLOY ME, I am a CEO of two companies and I own them you racist cunt
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
@Raybanmonster [Start Quote] "cunt" [End Quote]
I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????I'm going to make you wear a clown costume to work!"???????
HeCameHeSawGROID 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords what kind of a reply is that? I reply with science and you reply with banalities, punctuated with some kind of belief that you have won the argument before it has begun?
Please jackass skank... you are no educated mind... that is why I have nothing to discuss with you.
Chat fact and scientific issues and youd be lost with me, unless you know the difference between an Assay and an essay? No didnt think so . racist skank.lol wtf do u think you are? You're a nothing.
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
The invention of the internet really changed things.
Without it college would seem a lot more necessary to me. But since the age of 8 a simple google search has offered me more knowledge than school ever has.
imanintelect 7 months ago 2
@imanintelect That is really shortsighted and narrowminded thinking. It isnt about memorizing random pieces of information--its a venue for improvement, whether it be critical thinking, writing or speaking. There are some idiots who graduated-no doubt. But they will be thinned out. They wont hold a candle to the ones who took full advantage of the entire higher ed. system. Most Universities are a network-dont sell it short thinking its all nonsense.
torr5962 7 months ago
@torr5962 i don't agree. learning for me has been 95% books. 5% online video tutoring. end of.
MultiHellojohn 5 months ago
@MultiHellojohn You dont have to agree completely. Just understand that theres more than one way to learn. One can learn from an instructor and other students as well as reading and online video tutoring. I do think College is more about earning money, but there are loopholes in the system that we can exploit.
torr5962 4 months ago
people dumb as a box of rocks have degrees. theres people with degrees in and out of jail also.
SuperDeluxe80 7 months ago
Let's start a movement to change things. Type Reform Higher Education Now in the search box on Facebook or click CollegeReform below.
CollegeReform 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords
shut up you silly fool. you wouldnt keep up..you dare to call me psuedo-scientific and yet look at the nonsensical video you support. Tell me,how do any of these tests select for black or white when we have no definition in science of a black or white person? Fuck off and think that through before you even begin to attempt to try that shit with me jackass
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords
Is that what you thought when thinking of the facebook ceo?
You are denigrating education as if it is beneath you. Are you really that stupid?
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords
Just not prepared to waste my time with a jackass who thinks a degree means little. lol Clearly uttered from someone who hasn't experienced the process.
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
@AtheosRecords
sure... anything you say.
Raybanmonster 7 months ago
s0 i'm getting a BA in political science s0 basically i'm screwed
MacPr0xnxx0 7 months ago
@MacPr0xnxx0 no your not. People should be jealous of you. In 10 years, you could be help to run a state. Forget these idiots on here. Finish Poli Sci, get an internship, and someone will end up paying for your law degree.
torr5962 7 months ago
@torr5962 ya I'm gonna take your advice :))
MacPr0xnxx0 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Actually I'm LIVING PROOF that you don't need college to earn a decent living.
I took a civil service test (only high school diploma required) in 2003, and now I got a job as a NYC subway train operator.
My base salary is $66,674, but there are so many extras ("bonus time", "deadhead time", etc) that regularly boost my annual salary to over 70K for only 40hrs work.
If I put in the amount of hours the average corporate drone does I would easily earn six figures.
ejdf870 7 months ago
Degree means your appilcation will be looked at twice......at McDonalds :D
vfIskullangel 8 months ago
when we had a good economy it was worth it. now it is definitely not.
gearofduty2012 9 months ago
diversifying students is why most colleges will say they require 32 credits, which in Lehman terms means more classes for students to take....thus more paid professors.....thus more money for the college and the unnecessary college courses teachers supposedly teach.
tcsebert 10 months ago
you achieve goals from confidence,persistance and mindset, and not from doing what people tell you, such as "You have to go to college if you ever wanna get anywhere in this world." This is what separates the successful from the unsuccessful, and I'm thankful I learned this at such an early age.
FaidleyEthan 10 months ago
DEGREES ARE WORTHLESS.
You can learn much more studying by yourself with access to a library and the internet.
Ilikemustard 10 months ago 47
@Ilikemustard Karl Benz, inventor of a car and James Watt, inventor of a locomotive, had very little formal education.
Quex01 6 months ago
@Quex01 and my neighbor bob and friend didnt go to college and they now work at wal-mart making minium wage.....there are very few people that did stuff without going to college majority of people that don't go to college don't invent things or become well known
thatguy126 5 months ago
@thatguy126 I know people that went to college, and still ended up in $9.00 an hour jobs. I should know, I meet them all the time at my security job. Almost everyone there has a degree/B.A., or is getting one.
TheMedievalMan 5 months ago
@TheMedievalMan valid point...all i was trying to do is say how the argument of a "few successful people that did not go to college should be enough persuasion for someone else not to go to college" is not a very strong one
thatguy126 5 months ago
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Thedarksecret1 5 months ago
Disregard my previous statement because I've just realized that I did learn a lot of valuable things even though I learned more outside of college. I would never discourage someone from pursuing their education. However, I also understand that college is not for everyone. College is a perfect setting to be around other intellectual minds and exchange ideas with them. College is not only valuable from what you learn inside the classroom. It's also valuable in regards to the interaction.
Thedarksecret1 5 months ago
@Ilikemustard Do you know whats funny? The fact that the public library is payed for by taxes, and that anyone with a card can go in and become an autodidact self educated. How many do you know take advantage of it?
TheMedievalMan 5 months ago
@TheMedievalMan so friggin true. i say this all the time. watch good will hunting. he says exactly that haha
MultiHellojohn 4 months ago
@MultiHellojohn Oh yeah, you mean that part in the bar where he argues with that guy about agrarian/capitalist societies in history or whatever. And then he says about overpriced education vs $1.50 library card, I think is what he says. I watched that movie not too long ago. Havent you ever noticed when a movie gets brought up by someone, for some odd coincidence, its a movie you watched relatively recently?
TheMedievalMan 4 months ago
@TheMedievalMan How would someone even know what to look for with just a library card? I don't mean subject headings, I mean, how does one determine which materials are worthwhile and which are too shallow to be of use without wasting a great deal of time?
scottandrewhutchins 1 month ago
@scottandrewhutchins Look at reviews. Also, recommendations from internet forums that specialize on discussion of certain subjects.
TheMedievalMan 4 weeks ago
@TheMedievalMan Having earned 2 degrees and been an autodidact when not in school, I don't think that either can adequately replace the other.
scottandrewhutchins 4 weeks ago
@scottandrewhutchins I disagree. College has become a money making scam. Most who acquire degrees in certain fields, dont even use it for what they studied for. I know of a guy I was friends with in High School. He came back with a Masters, and got a job working for the Supermarket I used to work for. He couldnt find anything else. My Mother knows a friend with enough education to be a lawyer, shes unemployed and in debt. I wouldnt go because its a waste of my money.
TheMedievalMan 4 weeks ago
@TheMedievalMan I thought that way the first few years out of grad school, but now one of my grad school colleagues is paying to relocate me to work for him.
Again, my point was that autodidacticism is necessarily restricted because it has no external guidance. It's extremely valuable, but when it's entirely self-driven, you often ignore things you should be looking at.
scottandrewhutchins 4 weeks ago
@scottandrewhutchins True, but thats why I try and look at things from an outside-the-box view. I read as much as I can on the opposite side of what I personally believe. If I want to attack Feminism for example, I look at Feminist authors. If I want to attack Afro-centric pseudo-history. I look at what Afro-centric authors have to say. If you read more on the opposing view, you will be more knowledgeable than those who only read what their own side tells them.
TheMedievalMan 4 weeks ago
@TheMedievalMan It sounds like you're a right-wing extremist.
scottandrewhutchins 4 weeks ago
@scottandrewhutchins I consider myself a "traditional free-thinker". Conservatism & Progressivism has had many different meanings throughout history, it changes even among generations. To be conservative is to follow yesterdays trends & ideas, to be progressive is to create new ones. Chesterton said tradition is the democracy of the dead, its the ideas that have proven to work over time. One should be careful about following too strictly any political/social ideology.
TheMedievalMan 4 weeks ago
@TheMedievalMan you know what i dont get. why do so many people force their kids in to college? they should be teaching their kids HOW to think for themselves rather than WHAT to think at college what the hell? i never understood it
MultiHellojohn 4 months ago
@MultiHellojohn Many of these parents want whats best for their children. And they have been led to believe by their culture that whats best is lots of college. College is good, but like all things, it can be misused & too much can become wasteful, like drinking alcohol. The best kind of college is a two year degree in a community college. But the degree has become like the second high school diploma now that so many people are doing it. I'll eventually attend when I have the time & money.
TheMedievalMan 4 months ago
@Ilikemustard Not true. It depends on what you are learning. Studying by yourself has its limits. Interaction with others (students and teachers) can go a long way to enhance learning. Much of our adult lives revolve around interaction with others. College costs have skewed the importance, but degrees are not unimportant.
torr5962 4 months ago
@Ilikemustard well said, I learned this by myself also.
MysTeri0usMatT7 4 months ago
@Ilikemustard Except for they still are required by many scientific fields for good and no you can't teach yourself differential equations nor can you test yourself on differential equations.
movcrit 3 months ago
@movcrit
How can you not teach yourself differential equations? Is there some magical force preventing you from teaching yourself differential equations? There are plenty of resources on the internet.
Yes, I already know differential equations (I was taught them in university, but they are irrelevant to my profession, computer science, so I don't even need to know them).
Ilikemustard 3 months ago
@Ilikemustard Yes, its quite difficult to attempt to learn without a person who has already master it and guide you through a formulated process. They are actually relevant to computer game physics and topographic maps like temperature. You may have never used them but they are relevant.
movcrit 3 months ago
@movcrit
If I ever needed to use them (and I didn't know how to use them yet) I would learn how to use them. And I would probably be more efficient about it than my university.
Ilikemustard 3 months ago
@Ilikemustard Let me repeat myself once again... its quite difficult to teach yourself differential equations. It's certainly not impossible but its tremendously difficult to learn that level of mathematics without another person such as a tutor or teacher to evaluate you in order to see if you actually understand it. There's certainly no laws preventing me from joining the NFL but that doesn't mean I can given my level of fitness or in academia's world: intellect.
movcrit 3 months ago
Thank God. Until now i thought i was the only one who wasn't being brainwashed. Even my parents say get a degree - no one will hire you without it - its the only way you'll succeed. I wish that they had an open mind like me. But there brainwashed because they come home from their crappy job and watch tv and go to bed, and go to their crappy jobs. This is the life of those that don't question the truth that they are being fed. I do not want to end up like this.
FaidleyEthan 10 months ago 29
@FaidleyEthan
hey man when it comes time to try to live and work outside of the US you will find countries will not trust you enough to allow you a visa because yea educational background kinda matters.. Anyway cheers and goodluck
lordblazer 6 months ago
@FaidleyEthan this was on top comments so i saw this....your parents are not completely wrong you should get a degree so you can have the CHOICE of working a crappy job or not
thatguy126 5 months ago
this is a really good idea. how come we dont adopt a system like this?
snowboarder12653 10 months ago
bottom line people, what we truly desire is not "KNOWLEDGE" it is higher salaries. in other words-"MONEY". think about it, at the end of the day, what pays the bills, rent, taxes, child support, mortage, food, gas, shoes, clothes, ...etc? exactly, it is money, not some paper known as a degree, no matter what level it is. if we as americans truly desire knowledge, the 1# hobby in this country would be "READING", not watching T.V, movies, surfing the internet, and of course shopping.
sasquatch13ja 10 months ago
I went to college and it was fun and I learned stuff, but nothing that I could not have learned on my own much more cheaply or for free. We live in a society drowning in information. Also college did not teach me how to think well. It was life that did that.
kaunas88 11 months ago 2
I joined the military for college in 2002. Now while in graduate school I discovered that most of my classmates are less intelligent than the people I served in the Navy with. My military service so far has been monetarily rewarding than my BA in sociology. I work as a laborer and going to a grad program in education. My classmate's historical knowledge is laughable at best. Sadly I feel getting a masters in education is pointless because of the war on unions and austerity measures.
dinamo4889 11 months ago
great points i remember getting on the job training for basic computer programming for my current job and knew a few friends who took semesters learning stuff i learned in almost a month!
yasinpatel12345 11 months ago
And this is coming from a guy who went to Harvard and got a PhD from MIT
xbabybananax 11 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
The goal is to have young people BY THE BALLS!
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
Bankers are the enemy, folks.
centurion180ad 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The goal is to have young people BY THE BALLS!
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
Bankers are the enemy, folks.
centurion180ad 1 year ago
Comment removed
centurion180ad 1 year ago
Fastest way to drive down the value of a university education is to educate more people and issue more degrees. Supplying more graduates (no matter what the career path) without increasing demand will surely lead to lower wages and a lot of frustrated uemployed grads.
Cubatraveler 1 year ago
I learned more through math remedials in college than in high school.
jshjamaar 1 year ago
College measures how willing you are to give up time to the system. That's why employers look at how well you do in college. They want people who are used to being strained and being told what to do. So the problem is really with careers in general, and who can change that.
SHAenima 1 year ago 2
We have to stop building education around buildings. The "virtual" classroom redefines education & teaching methodology. It's not necessary for one teacher to repeat a lecture multiple times daily before a limited live audience or have multiple teachers lecturing on the same course. Also, the "urbanization" of primary education which aggregates student populations, over time, increases tensions & costs for no other reason except to centralize which is not necessary for a quality education.
bondurango 1 year ago
Also, doesn't this encourage people to cheat and do whatever it takes to get a piece of paper minted?
It's weird people say you learn people skills and how to live on your own. What's a job and an apartment for? That's real life right there, not a place with amenities. That sounds like vacation to me and you pay for that more than education.
It seems like a delaying of growing up. Yet, they say you grow up there. Then, you get penalized by debt. Not everyone can be laws, docs, and engineers.
Shrunkenhead61 1 year ago
Obama's drive for universal university education smacks too closely to national military service in more authoritarian regimes such as Iran or North Cyprus,the purpose of which is really indoctrination of national ideology, not personal&national security or well being as it is made to appear to be.
drfan2004 1 year ago
this man SPEAKETH the truth. I'm a management major but for some reason my university thinks its cool or whatever to make me take classes like astronomy 101 and history......and my question is...
WHY!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?
livingisaight 1 year ago
This guy's mistake is he assumes, based on no evidence, that anyone in congress gives a shit.
McDicker96 1 year ago
Let's continue to improve the system and improve the country by making knowledge more accessible via youtube. Less importance on the paper and more importance on knowledge and relationships.
whichdegree4me 1 year ago
@whichdegree4me Actually youtube isn't really the answer. We just need to make hubs more sophisticated and widely more open sourced. Why give youtube your videos when you can have bandwidth from all over. Think of it as a torrent of sources in one place on multiple subjects all open-sourced. It would be on a global scale. OSINT by Robert D Steele has some merit. He has an hour lecture on here. It's pretty loaded and you may disagree.
Shrunkenhead61 1 year ago
This guy is right and i'll use art for an example. Art college's are just too high over 100,000 dollors for a 4 year degree that's just nuts. Why waist the money sure you can learn neat stuff in game design and animation but you can also learn that on your own. Just pen up your own studo hire profosonal artist to teach you and try out for a company because trust me tey won't pass out on great talent they don't really care about education.
PeteNelman1 1 year ago
I know alot of people that went to college.They make less than me and there in debt up to there eyeballs in loans.It works out for alot of people but it doesn't seem to go that well for alot more out there.Seems like a sick joke being played on people.If you have a 4 yr degree i feel you should make $75 plus a year.If not you wasted your time imo.For the record i'm a lineman that makes $50 plus with a general highschool diploma.Thats above average for my area.Charlotte N.C.
nesbian1 1 year ago 3
Bravo! This man is sensible. Ladies and Gentlemen, I was homeschooled. The bottom line is that I never did an ounce of school work after the age of 12 or 13, and my curriculum was spotty even before that. Nevertheless, I still managed to score above average in English and Grammar on my ACT. The fact is that the practical knowledge necessary to succeed in life is seldom covered by formulized school algorithms. It is learned from experience.
JoshuaH688 1 year ago
I have an idea! Videotape college professors' lectures, AND/OR put them on CD-ROM/DVD , make plenty of them, and you can rent for FREE at the PUBLIC LIBRARY! Only show up for tests and final! Only attend for classes with LABS (e.g. chemistry, biology). Have options to RENT textbooks/organize to rent/share cost with friends! Get "PowerPoint slides" of instructor lectures, too! Nope, that would put college professors and colleges out of PROFIT!
ticks4ticks4 1 year ago
@ticks4ticks4 Too late it's already happening. They have lectures series from top universities on DVD at some of the public libraries. I learn best on my own. And through discourse.
dutytocareforothers 1 year ago
@ticks4ticks4 That's actually a good idea. Since people want to learn so much, learn for free/less pressure.
RSSFeedify 1 year ago
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fugiboo 1 year ago
The title is an inaccurate description of the clip. He just says that the current system is a waste and we should just have to take only the classes we need.
This is why GE's are bull crap. We should be able to take the classes just for our major. This alone would cut the amount of time we spent in college.
mikester9er 1 year ago
My cousin and her husband is in 300k debt total, both are Doctors. But not making that much in return. How long do you think it's going to take them to pay back, 50 years?
ferrari4sale 1 year ago
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mikester9er 1 year ago
@mikester9er I don't think so. It' will take much longer than that. You have to put in consideration that they now have kids, mortgage loan, car loan, bills, and INTEREST. As far as i know, they don't even make that much as we think.
ferrari4sale 1 year ago
@ferrari4sale well you didn't tell me that part :P If you're not going to making paying off loans a priority, then yea they can last for decades.
mikester9er 1 year ago
lol the BA punishes students hahahaha
jgtheman84 1 year ago
Isn't it a little unfair that Murray went to Havard University and after went on to get a P.D to now be telling others that they don't need university. Murrary choose to enrich himself in a rich educational enviornment. Graduates are statistically more likely to earn more money than non-graduates.
STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 1 year ago
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 It might not necessarily be why they earn more money. It could be that those people are smart and are bound to be successful anyway and only go to college because society tells them that that is what smart people do.
91BROWNIE91 1 year ago
@91BROWNIE91 It's surely true that graduates do have above average IQs. However a rich educational environment must help too. Also in order to access the very top incomes, except for sport, it seems to me that you must at the very least be a graduate, otherwise companies will not be interested in you. If somebody was very clever but never went to university I do think it would be much harder for him/her to do equally as well as somebody just as clever as him who did go to university.
STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 1 year ago
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 Yes you're rite. I've seen a lot of this stuff on the internet about how college is unecesarry and a waste of time but me personally, I'm going to stick it out anyway I'm already finished with my freshmen year. And my mother makes barely any money so every dime of my university schooling is covered by free grants so I would be stupid not to go.
91BROWNIE91 1 year ago
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 I received a BA in Systems Programming at a non-traditional college/technical institute and for every Junior Developer job I’ve applied for (it appears that my BA is not good enough) or entry-level Developer job—companies are not interested in my credentials (BA) as they are in my lack of experience, therefore, I’ve agree with Murray’s conclusions and proposition.
TuKeinD 1 year ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33
"Graduates are statistically more likely to earn more money than non-graduates."
Another idiot who fell for the "statistical contortion" marketing trick.
dz1ncha 1 year ago
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 Like Murray said.... it's easier when you have an academic environment, your parents can afford it, etc... not everyone gets into harvard and gets a P.D
iamemocore 1 year ago
@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 He said that if a student had the time and the financial freedom to go for more than a few years he knew it could be a good investment. It's for all the students that don't have those things working in their favor that he believes a year or two would sufice for ( at least when it comes to entering most career fields).
The2768Cassia 9 months ago
Having a type- A personality and being well liked among higher management will get you farther along than any BA/BS/BBA. THAT IS THE PAINFUL TRUTH.
meinside99 1 year ago
you don't need a degree in sociology to be knowledgeable in the subject, the same goes for English, Philosophy, and History. I
DaMostEnigmatic 1 year ago
He's not putting the educational system on trial but employers. It's totally true that once jobs in the early 90's required a BA or BS now require Masters. Seriously, you cannot even be seen for an interview at GOOGLE or YAHOO or ILM, PIXAR without a super high degree of education. That's their business platform and it could be applauded or frowned upon. I don't know but it seems like more and more of the upper class gets dibs on the most lucrative jobs. 2 degrees and no work for 2 years. Thanks
JMillion 1 year ago
The only reason why it's important to have a degree is that everyone THINKS it's important. Have you seen some of the people who graduate these days?
Jinxguy1000 1 year ago 33
@Jinxguy1000 Only a fool who doesnt have a degree in the first place would utter and dismiss its value. The truth is that a degree shapes your mind, it opens up methodology and approaches to thinking that stay with you for the rest of your life. Sure, it can be developed without a degree but dont forget the value you gain interacting daily with people of similar mind.
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
@Raybanmonster You post this comment after watching a video of a Harvard graduate who believes that the B.A. "has value, but shouldn't".
jrsub3 1 year ago
@jrsub3 ??? wtf are you talking about? lolol.
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
@Raybanmonster Charles Murray graduated w/ a BA in History from Harvard, and a PhD in Poly Sci from MIT. If you spent 30 seconds researching the person making the comments in this video, you would have known this.
jrsub3 1 year ago
@jrsub3 so???
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
@Raybanmonster "Only a fool who doesnt have a degree in the first place would utter and dismiss its value." - you
Well, Charles Murray has a degree. From a prestigious school. Two, actually. He dismisses the value. Your entire comment was void of substance after this.
jrsub3 1 year ago 2
@jrsub3
So what? you are entitled to your opinion. Good for you. Now when you have a factual and sensible point to make , make it and stop the personal nonsense..
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
@Raybanmonster There was nothing personal there.
You said only a fool who doesn't have a degree would bash a degree.
Dr. Murray has a PhD.
Therefore, what you said is wrong. Maybe you think Dr. Murray is still a fool, but he's not bashing a degree because he doesn't have one.
jrsub3 1 year ago 2
@jrsub3 I think the main issue at heart here is that education is good in that it provides a framework for an approach to thinking, a method to approach problem solving and that pattern tends to stay with you throughout life and it is an definite ADVANTAGE. That ISNT to say people cannot attain various or better forms of that skill themselves, if they are inclined to want to develop such skill directly or indirectly themselves some deliberate some as a consequence of current endeavours.
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
Bachelor degrees as an academic foundation provide training in transferable skills, which a straightforward knowledge based vocational accreditation does not ordinarily offer. In an economy where the technological knowledge is said to double every seventy two hours, and where most of the jobs in the next decade probably dont exist yet; it is essential that we train tomorrows generation in broad based academic process skills, rather than just stuffing their heads with transitional data.
johnsammyanfal 1 year ago
@johnsammyanfal i dont want to wait Tomorrow to get a job i want to get one today.
TheJoelef 1 year ago
The core economic value of Higher Learning Institution is not the number of BA graduates it produces but the quality of its research base; and in particular those aspects most associated with raising the scientific and technological capabilities of the society. In most universities the research departments are effectively subsidised by the bachelor fees and to a greater extent by liberal arts majors because these courses are extremely cost effective to put on.
johnsammyanfal 1 year ago
it's a good point but the hypocrisy of it is shown by the fact, we probably wont take his anti BA points seriously unless he holds one himself.
palkom13 1 year ago
That's a good point. Its sort of an educational Catch22: In order to denounce a BA, you need to have a BA to be seen as having gravitas on the subject.
Sad but true.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
I don't know where logloglife went but he/she made good logical points.
Again, I point out the obvious: Murray is a Harvard grad.
It is easy for people who have degrees to say that education doesn't matter. Unfortunately, it does matter. A number of jobs require a Bachelor's degree and unless you want to buy a fake one, you need to go to college to get certain jobs and careers.
Being a freelance writer, I can tell you that having a college degree matters.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago 3
Being someone who formally did freelance writing without a degree, i can confirm that it indeed helps to have a degree as your work, no matter the strength of it, is ill taken seriously.
palkom13 1 year ago
Sad but true. I went to a small state college where I got a BA degree and when I was writing and working in Seattle even smaller weekly, community and ethnic publications pretty much required a BA as a starting point-for freelance work.
That's what surpised me a little-smaller pubs requiring a degree. I think its part of the weeding out process that has taken place in the job market.
It makes more sense to hire a college-educated freelancer than one with a HSD though its nonsense.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
It's a pretty good point. Why does engineering take just as long as pottery? 4 years is simply too long. I don't get the mystical number 4 as if people grasp it in 4 years. Not everyone is a mathematician and those who are should go to college with other mathematicians to converse over math ideas. Education isn't bad, you can get it from a library. Also, I don't see how 4 years of school automatically makes you stand out. There is no way to measure what is really being learned.
Ironkettle 1 year ago 2
Education is not a waste of time. It is the institutionalized, bureaucratic system which holds a monopoly on intelligence certification (in essence what a degree is) that is the waste. 300 student classes, Scantron cards, debt, and for what? Society would benefit more if there were more libraries and gathering spaces that weren't attached to a commercial function.
Popsfresh 2 years ago 2
Education historically has always been for the rich. Modern day colleges and Universities are still dominated by the rich and act as a filtration system because the world needs its ditch diggers.
Jinto117 2 years ago 2
As a hiring manager, some of the dumbest people that come into my office have college degrees. A college degree says nothing to me without work history.
benzo771 2 years ago 19
@benzo771 College is work. Research. Turning in assignments on deadlines. Finishing each semester with passing grades.
dutytocareforothers 1 year ago
@dutytocareforothers I'd get all A's and B's without even trying. Equating college to a full time job is absolutely laughable.
jrsub3 1 year ago
@jrsub3 Your just jealous, an academic record is exactly what youd wish for your child if you had any, dont be so mean and stupid.
Raybanmonster 1 year ago
It would help if the commercials for vocational schools didn't feature people who seem kinda retarded. It adds to the idea that vocational schools are to be laughed at. The way they over do trying to have an appeal to "that kind of person". It's embarrassing.
prayfertrey 2 years ago 2
I hate to tell you this but in general they are less intelligent. Look at the stats for iq correlation with college and trade school.
logloglife 2 years ago
Yeah, but why parade it? I guess "they" can't tell the difference... but I hate feeling embarrassed *for* other people when they're being fatuous. I don't have tv for that reason. The commercials are just way too insipid and it's stressful.
prayfertrey 2 years ago
I am sorry you are so sensitive. Actually, "they" (why was they put in quotes it is a well defined group of people) probably don't care as long as they have job opportunities.
logloglife 2 years ago
@logloglife "...they probably don't care as long as they have job opportunities."
Wow, you're mean! But you're probably right. I don't know what's worse, that they're stupid, or that they'll never know.
prayfertrey 2 years ago
Honestly, I don't see why either is bad. In general people have come to accept that some people are smarter than others (ironically Murrays the bell curve supports this idea). If they don't know that is probably better for them (less humiliation, if they even care). I know a welder who doesnt abhor his status or engage in self-loathing, he freely admits he is not intellectually inclined and he seems perfectly happy (albeit in the vacuous ignorance is bliss sort of way).
logloglife 2 years ago
Agreed, although there seem to be those who do resent "the smart kids".
prayfertrey 2 years ago
The government has educational programs as described by Charles Murray. It's called the military training programs. Cut out all the BS and teach what you really need to know to do your specific job. The rest of it can be learned OJT. One of the most successful programs is the US Navy Nuclear Engineering Program.
YoSoydePinas 2 years ago
And by the time you're out of elementary and grammar school, your desire to learn has been so flattened it's no wonder that kids who go to college of an attitude of, "look, I just wanna get this done and get the degree and get the job, ok. Don't pester me with 'the wonder of learning'". The only thing you learn in school is how to obey orders.
prayfertrey 2 years ago 7
Wow simple and brilliant.
yak6ex 2 years ago
(Continued)
I don't really openly discuss my plans with them, because I don't really fit into their league.
I really don't care if they think I'm less intelligent than them. Technical school is more practical, and at least I'll have work while they're drowning in student loans unemployed.
I've read some of the other comments. It's good to see other people who are down-to-earth. If only my friends were like you.
independence442 2 years ago 4
(Continued)
It's all such a fun experience, but when you put on that cap and gown, and are handed that piece of paper, you owe a ton of money, and nobody wants to hire you because you don't have any practical skills.
It just becomes a fancy piece of paper.
I'm quite different from my friends. In fact, I might be the only one that has a practical mindset. You know, one that doesn't plan on wasting time and money on rubbish.
independence442 2 years ago 3
@independence442 Even if someone does want to hire you... it doesn't take 4 years to learn how to be a librarian, or to use an x-ray machine... School is a jobs creation scheme. So many unnecessary jobs would go away if University wasn't bloated with all kinds of easy A majors. Today, the University is a way to make jobs for "professors" etc. and to make billions for loan lenders, and the govt. (Obama) takes its marching orders from the bankers.
prayfertrey 2 years ago 4
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At least at technical school you'll learn something useful.
I'm so glad that I followed my senses not to go to a university. It's expensive, and you are forced to take courses unrelated to your major that are useless in reality.
Sadly, all of my friends are jumping on the college bandwagon. Quite a few are majoring in something totally worthless, and they'll get 50K+ into debt. Who's gonna hire them?
independence442 2 years ago 2
(Continued)
At least at technical school you'll learn something useful.
I'm so glad that I followed my senses not to go to a university. It's expensive, and you are forced to take courses unrelated to your major that are useless in reality.
Sadly, all of my friends are jumping on the college bandwagon. Quite a few are majoring in something totally worthless, and they'll get 50K+ into debt. Who's gonna hire them?
independence442 2 years ago
He speaks the truth. The BA is overrated. It's not really right to call someone a dummy just because they don't have one. You don't need a BA to be smart.
Look at Bill Gates. He doesn't have a college degree, but look where he is today!
Also, a BA doesn't have much worth in the real world. An employer doesn't care what crazy subjects you studied at college, they want you to have taken courses related to the field!
There's nothing wrong with technical school.
independence442 2 years ago
All college does is train you to be a disciplined employee. It doesn't round you out. You don't even learn crap. I have a degree in business and can't remember crap!!! All college does is trains you for 4 years to be on time, meet deadlines, and work hard....same thing you're gonna do in the corporate world and that's what employers are gonna want! ...slaves!
cheddarbean 2 years ago
I fully believe college is a waste of time and money. I have 4 friends who are college grads and I didn't even finish high school and I make twice what they make. Granted their is no way most people get that lucky but there goes 100% of my motivation to ever open a text book again.
euvi85 2 years ago
Do you not understand the logical fallacy present in your argument? If your friends are not intelligent/motivated enough to do well in college than college is not the problem they are. Similarly, if they are not interested in jobs that have a ba requisite or academics then they shouldn't have gone. How is college a waste for a prospective research mathematician?
logloglife 2 years ago
I've learned more from the internet and the discovery channel than I did my first two years of college. I agree fully with this video. Why make students repeat high school classes for two years just so you can get to your core classes. By the time you get there you are basically depressed and don't care anymore. My first two years killed my motivation and made me not want to continue my education.
GTRrocker666 2 years ago 19
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@GTRrocker666 ..Bullshit useless impractical bullshit classes ..they dont prepare for the working world..it is a crock of shit!!!..and theres no jobs anyway..u learn nothing like high school..its a fuckin money makin lie..and they fail u over bullshit..meticulous critical teachers that are assholes..your gunna need a Ph D to work in Burger King soon
5tonyvvvv 1 year ago
@GTRrocker666 The goal is to have young people BY THE BALLS!
Soaked into debt so deep, that they would never dare to voice a moral or contradictory concern to a corporation employer. Once they are forced into performing a horrible immoral task, the corporation slave-masters have them for life.
It's //all// criminal activity, and the God Damn BANKERS are the root cause.
Bankers are the enemy, folks.
centurion180ad 1 year ago
@centurion180ad nah, I think liberal politcans just have a utopia mentailtiy which is why you have the idea of "all to college"... Not a banker conspiracy
dadecountyhustler305 11 months ago
@GTRrocker666 I agree the history channel and discovery channel are great sources of information... Keep in mind if they didn't show actual facts, then people would tune out and hence loose money... You dont see this economic system in ideological professors... Which is why they fail
dadecountyhustler305 11 months ago
@GTRrocker666 same here. it really takes a toll on your ability to continue on
19trojan88 11 months ago
Government compulsory schooling and taxes to support education from preschool to colleges is the problem Murray is a libertarian
358Liberty 2 years ago
i agree completely, lots of ppl become succesful without having to pay for classes that they dnt ne, or jst college in general
E12191G 2 years ago
I agree, we have so many subpar ignoramuses in college today that couldn't have even mastered high school 50 years ago it is a joke.
jakefree25 2 years ago
our education sucks its down the drain.
the idea of "well rounded education" is stupid.
if i want to be a quantum physicists then i should only have to take classes THAT HAVE TO DO with quantum physics. NOT ENGLISH NO HISTORY quantum physics
i want to be a historian so what do i need HISTORY CLASSES and some basic college lvl english. not math... not a "foreign language"
xfvkemosx 2 years ago 7
Yeah scientific literacy is pointless..... Its not like technology is becoming more and more prevalent in our society,and in a democratic society people should not have even elementary knowlege of science. In fact who needs high school most people don't use algebra or need to learn about literature. In fact people only need to learn how to read and write on a basic level lets just throw most children into trade schools after 6th grade.
logloglife 2 years ago
Arguments about this tend to be tragi-comedies because people are proceeding from the false assumption that forced schooling is necessary to "git an education". The kids who grew up in the 80s when computers came on the scene became whiz kids without classes. If it's out there in the world and relevant to people's lives, especially kids, they're going to master it as long as you stay out of their way. School (as we have them) just aren't necessary for humans.
prayfertrey 2 years ago 3
Good idea actually. Technology can be more easily learned in small courses designed to teach people to use more or less the exact things they need to know for the work they are doing. It's impossible to prepare people for everything and chances are by the time they've been in the workforce for 5 years they'll have forgotten most of what they learned and the rest will be outdated.
Hell, my grandfather designed an electrical substation with a 6th grade formal education and a whole lot of reading.
ghjjfsbf 1 year ago