I have to ask; in your discussion of obedience, ultimately, what is dictating it? After a couple of minutes of thought, my answer has to be, my mortality. i.e., Time. That's why there are schedules. That's why we often get paid by the hour. Orchestration becomes important because of timing. The tyrant is time. But the captains of industry utilize it to maximize profits to them in their lifetime. Time is their tyrant as well. Obedience is to that. Am I mistaken?
Cool, I think it is interesting that some respected people in society have had a good healthy disrespect for authority. Like Einstein, Richard Feynman, R. Buckminster Fuller, Da Vinci, Newton, Jackson Pollack, John Lennon, etc. Don't you find that peculiar?
i agree with the philosophies of what you say in the vids 1,2 &3, but do wonder how, as a minority, kids can grow into adulthood and function as members of society, a society full of obedience, rules etc..
Another reason tests and grades are bullshit is that they're not good at working out whether the child actually has a good understanding. It's ok for working out if the child memorised a bunch of facts, but.. so what? In real life, you can look up facts on Google.
To clarify a common error: In most cases, when a kid wants to go outside (or wants to do most other stuff), a discussion about it won't be necessary. It's only when you think kid might be mistaken, or might want to know something before deciding, or whatever.
That said, giving advice is great. It's just that lots of people bore kids by giving them unwanted advice or being under the impression you have to talk about *everything* (and thus not letting kid do what he wants during the discussion).
I agree - schools could do things better, but letting kids do whatever they want isn't conducive to learning. There's balance. INDISCIMINATE disobedience is a recipe for chaos. Even the home schooling example depends on the child respecting the parent's decision. If kids consistently say "I want to go outside" does the parent allow that? No. There should be room for creativeness and free thinking. Children should be able to ask why things are being done a certain way, and not "just because."
wrong, kids need to learn the value of informed decision making and self disipline, obedience then becomes unnessasary as you have the ballance, with no indiscriminate behaviour & no chaos.
Happened upon your education series and agree 100% with everything you've said so far. How do "free schools" live up in terms of obedience? I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between a free school and a Montessori school as I haven't looked into them much as of yet.
If you ever write 'aaron0883's Republic', I'll be first in line to pick it up.
really interesting opinion you have there...obidience is a coplicated theme to talk about...
you should read Harold Saxe Tuttle: Obedience: A Necessary Convenience, Isaiah Berlin: rousseau and Donelda J. Stayton et al.: Infant Obedience and Maternal Behavior: The Origins of Socialization Reconsidered
very interesting readding if u r interested in learning more abouth obidience theories and stuff..^_^
I think you're a thinker. Wise words. Quite a tragedy the damage social structures do by failing to teach about the relationships among power, authority, and truth.
obedience IS necessary in society however, think about it. What about the factory workers, we need to produce? If you train all society to be free thinkers, everyone would notice that working in a factory, and beong controlled is a terrible job, and no one would be willing to do it. I am slightly social darwinist, and I don't think that we should get rid of the stupid and obedient, but rather that they should be kept aside doing tasks such as these so that the "greater society" can grow.
We do not need obedient workers. We can treat people with respect. People can have self respecting relationships and do a job for their own self advancement ... like they do now. Also, I do not care about "society" ... "society" can rot, I only care about the individual.
you can have someone be obedient to you, and still treat them with respect though...also, these individuals make up a 'society' so that argument is not valid, on the basis that your ideals of education are meant for a society, not an individual. Also, if we catered to every individual's learning whims, the resource cost would be too great, I think what you stand for is great, however you are not seeing the big scheme of things, society needs to have obendience. and hey my pitch, how about...
those who commit wrong deeds, such as murder, are those whom obedience is needed for. I was wrong in saying that a free speaking free thinking outspoken intelligent community could work in factories and such...There would I expect be willing volunteers, however if there weren't any willing, every individual would have to do his own part, and work in a factory for however long.
No way. People should work where they want to work, and if a business can not attract willing participants than they can offer more money. Obviously you have a socialistic view of the world. I find that view wrong on many levels ... however, I do not wish to debate that subject on my education videos.
I am not socialistic at all, merely playing devils advocate here...I must say though, offering more money is a bribe is it not? I thought you were against this.....
not at all. Offering more money is not a bribe it is getting paid the correct amount, because people get jobs for money. People should learn for learning, not for money or gold stars. When you turn learning into a way to get money or gold stars it defeats itself and children just fake to be knowledgeable to get approval .... no one efficiently learns unless they are interested in the topic.
right...but basically kids are getting 'paid' for the correct amount of work..they do the 5 page essay, they get 3 gold stars, they do a 3 page essay, they get 1 and one half. <---I am not saying that kids should get gold stars, I am just pointing out the fact that you seem to stop having this respect once the kid reaches adulthood. Now you seem to seriously be getting my points wrong, I am merely trying to make your argument stronger because I strongly agree with you, however I see these flaws.
When i do work. i do doing it for money. When i learn an idea ... I do it for my personal growth. There is a large difference between these two things. If I work at a factory I am doing it so I can provide for myself. therefore, I do not do it for the joy of working. We should learn because we are interested. There is a huge difference between these two things. I support children getting jobs for money ... I just don't support children learning for rewards.
This was good, but what about the kids that are lazy, and don't neccessarily want to learn even though it helps their personal growth and outcome later in life...what if rewards for learning pushed them to learn, and in they end when they looked back on their childhood, they realize that without the rewards,they would neither be successful nor happy...the rewards helped them did they not?So rather then a bribe, thinkof it as motivation for those less fortunate then those as curious as you or me.
I have more videos to make in my series ... but i do not believe in education in the realm it is what-so-ever. I do not believe in schools, or teachers as we know them. Children should be self-directed. Also ... there is no such thing as society, only individuals. My pitch is not for society. It is for individuals. No society has a brain or feelings ... only individuals do.
I've been thinking about your videos on education and using force against children almost continually for the past few days now, trying to flesh out some of the implications. I have a bunch of points:
1. What do you do before the kid can talk or reason?
2. What kind of rules and boundaries do you think are appropriate? From what I've observed, children with few boundaries become spoiled brats--complete whim-worshippers.
3. Would you set no rules at all for kids? No bedtimes, they get to eat candy whenever they want, go wherever they want whenever they want? I don't see how a child is going to be equipped to make decisions on their own if they haven't had adults making some of their decisions for them. It's like asking them to (pardon the cliche) reinvent the wheel. Asking them to take responsibility for decisions they're not qualified to make sets them up for failure.
4. Great points on obedience and how obedience obliterates morality. Profound stuff.
5. I also really like what you said about coercion in schooling. It's absolutely true. I had the worst guilt trips loaded on me by high school teachers and councelors over unfinished homework and undone reports; I could neither bring myself to obey nor disregard their psychological manipulation.
5.(cont.) The vast majority of the learning I've done has been on my own; school was a major psychological distraction (kept trying to motivate myself to do "what I was supposed to" and kept failing over and over).
6. Overall, a fantastic trio of videos. I'm sure I'm forgetting some points, but they'll come to me. Thanks!
7. Oh yeah, the power tools example: Would you really let a six-year-old decide for himself whether he's big enough to play with power tools? "Billy, you can't lift it, and you could cut your fingers off." "No, I wouldn't." "Ok Billy, it's your decision." Yes, parents should reason with kids all day long, as long as necessary, but in the end the parent has to set certain non-negotiable boundaries.
I think that the school is a lot better, but there are still several fundamental problems with it. 1. It is democratically run in many ways (tyranny of the majority). 2. It is still compulsory. 3. I do not believe in a place for learning, I believe in learning by doing things (this will be a topic in future videos). i believe that a place like this would be an awesome social environment for children in many respects, but I am against there being places for 'learning' in any way.
I actually think that you are on to something, but kind of opposite. I believe that obedience is the main virtue demanded by the state because obedience is the main virtue demanded by parents and schools.
Your getting into what I call the "theory" of transferable loyalties. Children are naturally trusting, which is commonly misinterpreted as obedience, then parents teach children actual obedience, and they in this process, shape a childs view of morality and his or herself. The next step in reasoning is to realize that the state is of man, therefore the men involved would have to have a means by which to gain the loyality of the populace. The parental loyalty complex fills this role for the state
Great book!!!
blackvitruvianman 5 months ago
I get in trouble all the time not even for doing anything wrong just for questioning things.
yellowunlimited 1 year ago 4
your math example is awesome ...
i got a 75/100 just caused i dont show to class...
but when i take test i get 95..
Er1ckAmaya 1 year ago
great video..
i continue to be amazed by how well u have grasped all this.
its just fucked up that other people dont get it.. and even worse for students.
ssips720 2 years ago 3
I have to ask; in your discussion of obedience, ultimately, what is dictating it? After a couple of minutes of thought, my answer has to be, my mortality. i.e., Time. That's why there are schedules. That's why we often get paid by the hour. Orchestration becomes important because of timing. The tyrant is time. But the captains of industry utilize it to maximize profits to them in their lifetime. Time is their tyrant as well. Obedience is to that. Am I mistaken?
RichardRoy2 2 years ago
Cool, I think it is interesting that some respected people in society have had a good healthy disrespect for authority. Like Einstein, Richard Feynman, R. Buckminster Fuller, Da Vinci, Newton, Jackson Pollack, John Lennon, etc. Don't you find that peculiar?
dgferguson 3 years ago
i agree with the philosophies of what you say in the vids 1,2 &3, but do wonder how, as a minority, kids can grow into adulthood and function as members of society, a society full of obedience, rules etc..
VidsOfTheKids 3 years ago
Another reason tests and grades are bullshit is that they're not good at working out whether the child actually has a good understanding. It's ok for working out if the child memorised a bunch of facts, but.. so what? In real life, you can look up facts on Google.
TheLulie 3 years ago 2
To clarify a common error: In most cases, when a kid wants to go outside (or wants to do most other stuff), a discussion about it won't be necessary. It's only when you think kid might be mistaken, or might want to know something before deciding, or whatever.
That said, giving advice is great. It's just that lots of people bore kids by giving them unwanted advice or being under the impression you have to talk about *everything* (and thus not letting kid do what he wants during the discussion).
TheLulie 3 years ago
I agree - schools could do things better, but letting kids do whatever they want isn't conducive to learning. There's balance. INDISCIMINATE disobedience is a recipe for chaos. Even the home schooling example depends on the child respecting the parent's decision. If kids consistently say "I want to go outside" does the parent allow that? No. There should be room for creativeness and free thinking. Children should be able to ask why things are being done a certain way, and not "just because."
catlady999 3 years ago
wrong, kids need to learn the value of informed decision making and self disipline, obedience then becomes unnessasary as you have the ballance, with no indiscriminate behaviour & no chaos.
VidsOfTheKids 3 years ago
"Or they rebel."
My childhood in a box.
SuperHurra 3 years ago
and mine, and i believe it to be the single reason for my open mindedness,strong will, ability to think for my self and desire to walk my own path.
VidsOfTheKids 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You have little experience in a classroom. It shows.
livetime77 3 years ago
I wish that I had less experience than I do have. I would feel better about myself.
aaron0883 3 years ago 3
why feel bad, at least you got thru it with an open mind.
VidsOfTheKids 3 years ago
@livetime77 you suck aaron is right kthx
CFrostyTheSnowman 1 year ago
Obedience is genetically selected for in social animals. I agree with all your other points however.
Here:
/watch?v=XocsgyxYbbQ
NoCryingNowYes 3 years ago
You're slowly becoming my new intellectual hero
NoCryingNowYes 3 years ago
Happened upon your education series and agree 100% with everything you've said so far. How do "free schools" live up in terms of obedience? I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between a free school and a Montessori school as I haven't looked into them much as of yet.
If you ever write 'aaron0883's Republic', I'll be first in line to pick it up.
pog0 3 years ago
really interesting opinion you have there...obidience is a coplicated theme to talk about...
you should read Harold Saxe Tuttle: Obedience: A Necessary Convenience, Isaiah Berlin: rousseau and Donelda J. Stayton et al.: Infant Obedience and Maternal Behavior: The Origins of Socialization Reconsidered
very interesting readding if u r interested in learning more abouth obidience theories and stuff..^_^
lovefordeath 3 years ago
I think you're a thinker. Wise words. Quite a tragedy the damage social structures do by failing to teach about the relationships among power, authority, and truth.
patternsinchaos 3 years ago
obedience IS necessary in society however, think about it. What about the factory workers, we need to produce? If you train all society to be free thinkers, everyone would notice that working in a factory, and beong controlled is a terrible job, and no one would be willing to do it. I am slightly social darwinist, and I don't think that we should get rid of the stupid and obedient, but rather that they should be kept aside doing tasks such as these so that the "greater society" can grow.
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
We do not need obedient workers. We can treat people with respect. People can have self respecting relationships and do a job for their own self advancement ... like they do now. Also, I do not care about "society" ... "society" can rot, I only care about the individual.
aaron0883 3 years ago
you can have someone be obedient to you, and still treat them with respect though...also, these individuals make up a 'society' so that argument is not valid, on the basis that your ideals of education are meant for a society, not an individual. Also, if we catered to every individual's learning whims, the resource cost would be too great, I think what you stand for is great, however you are not seeing the big scheme of things, society needs to have obendience. and hey my pitch, how about...
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
those who commit wrong deeds, such as murder, are those whom obedience is needed for. I was wrong in saying that a free speaking free thinking outspoken intelligent community could work in factories and such...There would I expect be willing volunteers, however if there weren't any willing, every individual would have to do his own part, and work in a factory for however long.
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
No way. People should work where they want to work, and if a business can not attract willing participants than they can offer more money. Obviously you have a socialistic view of the world. I find that view wrong on many levels ... however, I do not wish to debate that subject on my education videos.
aaron0883 3 years ago
I am not socialistic at all, merely playing devils advocate here...I must say though, offering more money is a bribe is it not? I thought you were against this.....
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
not at all. Offering more money is not a bribe it is getting paid the correct amount, because people get jobs for money. People should learn for learning, not for money or gold stars. When you turn learning into a way to get money or gold stars it defeats itself and children just fake to be knowledgeable to get approval .... no one efficiently learns unless they are interested in the topic.
aaron0883 3 years ago
right...but basically kids are getting 'paid' for the correct amount of work..they do the 5 page essay, they get 3 gold stars, they do a 3 page essay, they get 1 and one half. <---I am not saying that kids should get gold stars, I am just pointing out the fact that you seem to stop having this respect once the kid reaches adulthood. Now you seem to seriously be getting my points wrong, I am merely trying to make your argument stronger because I strongly agree with you, however I see these flaws.
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
When i do work. i do doing it for money. When i learn an idea ... I do it for my personal growth. There is a large difference between these two things. If I work at a factory I am doing it so I can provide for myself. therefore, I do not do it for the joy of working. We should learn because we are interested. There is a huge difference between these two things. I support children getting jobs for money ... I just don't support children learning for rewards.
aaron0883 3 years ago
This was good, but what about the kids that are lazy, and don't neccessarily want to learn even though it helps their personal growth and outcome later in life...what if rewards for learning pushed them to learn, and in they end when they looked back on their childhood, they realize that without the rewards,they would neither be successful nor happy...the rewards helped them did they not?So rather then a bribe, thinkof it as motivation for those less fortunate then those as curious as you or me.
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
hey Aaron, you wasted ur time talking to stankylittleangus,
he is a troll
SpicyHam 2 years ago
I have more videos to make in my series ... but i do not believe in education in the realm it is what-so-ever. I do not believe in schools, or teachers as we know them. Children should be self-directed. Also ... there is no such thing as society, only individuals. My pitch is not for society. It is for individuals. No society has a brain or feelings ... only individuals do.
aaron0883 3 years ago
I've been thinking about your videos on education and using force against children almost continually for the past few days now, trying to flesh out some of the implications. I have a bunch of points:
1. What do you do before the kid can talk or reason?
2. What kind of rules and boundaries do you think are appropriate? From what I've observed, children with few boundaries become spoiled brats--complete whim-worshippers.
nine9s 3 years ago
3. Would you set no rules at all for kids? No bedtimes, they get to eat candy whenever they want, go wherever they want whenever they want? I don't see how a child is going to be equipped to make decisions on their own if they haven't had adults making some of their decisions for them. It's like asking them to (pardon the cliche) reinvent the wheel. Asking them to take responsibility for decisions they're not qualified to make sets them up for failure.
nine9s 3 years ago
4. Great points on obedience and how obedience obliterates morality. Profound stuff.
5. I also really like what you said about coercion in schooling. It's absolutely true. I had the worst guilt trips loaded on me by high school teachers and councelors over unfinished homework and undone reports; I could neither bring myself to obey nor disregard their psychological manipulation.
nine9s 3 years ago
5.(cont.) The vast majority of the learning I've done has been on my own; school was a major psychological distraction (kept trying to motivate myself to do "what I was supposed to" and kept failing over and over).
6. Overall, a fantastic trio of videos. I'm sure I'm forgetting some points, but they'll come to me. Thanks!
nine9s 3 years ago
7. Oh yeah, the power tools example: Would you really let a six-year-old decide for himself whether he's big enough to play with power tools? "Billy, you can't lift it, and you could cut your fingers off." "No, I wouldn't." "Ok Billy, it's your decision." Yes, parents should reason with kids all day long, as long as necessary, but in the end the parent has to set certain non-negotiable boundaries.
nine9s 3 years ago
just as neccessary laws are established in our system...granted I am not saying all laws are neccessary in the slightest.
stankylittleangus 3 years ago
Well I'm not sure if a ten year old can see above the dashboard, and yeah coordination might be a problem too.
But yeah good video. I agree 99% except the part about the car, but I get the point.
FistsoFuckinFreedom 3 years ago
Ask a dog owner if obedience is natural
leitermann 3 years ago
Dogs and children are not comparable, but one must also factor in the threat of violence and the "trust" factor, which masquerades as obedience.
MatthewLeee 3 years ago
Well then how might you define 'obedience'?
leitermann 3 years ago
doing as one is told dispite any other input.
the definition of trust can be looked up on any online dicitonary.
MatthewLeee 3 years ago
There are some videos on here called 'Voices from the New American Schoolhouse'. Search for it and you'll find them.
It's about a school where the children are allowed to do whatever they want, it seems.
EntertainedWatcher 3 years ago
I think that the school is a lot better, but there are still several fundamental problems with it. 1. It is democratically run in many ways (tyranny of the majority). 2. It is still compulsory. 3. I do not believe in a place for learning, I believe in learning by doing things (this will be a topic in future videos). i believe that a place like this would be an awesome social environment for children in many respects, but I am against there being places for 'learning' in any way.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Call it "Decentralized learning".
MatthewLeee 3 years ago
Obedience is a virtue in schools, because obedience is the sole virtue demanded by the state. I don't think this is coincidental.
Fuck authority. (Did I type that out loud?)
Great video.
LibertyIsNotGiven 3 years ago
I actually think that you are on to something, but kind of opposite. I believe that obedience is the main virtue demanded by the state because obedience is the main virtue demanded by parents and schools.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Your getting into what I call the "theory" of transferable loyalties. Children are naturally trusting, which is commonly misinterpreted as obedience, then parents teach children actual obedience, and they in this process, shape a childs view of morality and his or herself. The next step in reasoning is to realize that the state is of man, therefore the men involved would have to have a means by which to gain the loyality of the populace. The parental loyalty complex fills this role for the state
MatthewLeee 3 years ago