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  • Finally I'll be able to get healthcare. I havent had a checkup in 9-years. God bless Obama and the democrats. Republicans bray all the time about the "right to life",but that is just empty rhetoric, and an attempt to control women's sexuality, as the religious love to do.

  • time for odumbo to shut up and get the hell out of our personal business and lives. Get out of the white house asap you lying sack of dog dung. The honeymoon is over and your chickens are coming home to roost!!!!

  • The American people are not on board! He thinks that he won by more than 51%. That means that 49% of Americans don't want this. Don't fool your self into thinking it was 100%.

  • a comment on these negative Obama comments:

    you folks are, depressingly, not only ignorant, but downright stupid. Run down to your nearest 7-11 and pick up a brain, would you?. No use in trying to speak intelligently to you idiots. It's a good thing that you only have one vote each.

    A registered independent voter.

    (why can't you idiot-proof the USA? They keep coming up with new and improved idiots!)

  • What an arrogant PRICK.

    All these Yale and Harvard assholes need to fuck off.

    Give me a president who graduated from the University of Texas or Arizona State.

  • What the hell does Barack Obama know about Leading? He's been a follower and hangeron since childhood....For sure he wont get in next time, but I doubt he will be allowed to complete this term. ummmm Impeachent...such a beautiful word!

  • we need to vote all of these losers out in 2010 and the idiot in 2012. and no we arent going to let you pass this piece of shit bill mr odumbass. you need to take all your czars and move to your homeland,kenya and start your own marxist country,they love you there and we hate your ass here

  • Verbally molest your congressmen during their recess. Let them know that if they vote for this socialist monstrosity that they will not be able to win next election. Nothing scares them more than being threatened with having to actually work for a living. If they pass this there needs to be language in the bill making it law for congress, president & union workers to have gov medical ins. They are supposed to "WORK FOR US" not be our overlords!!!!

    The gov that governs least governs best

  • On page 425 of the proposed bill, it says that everyone on social security (will include all senior citizens & SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 yrs to learn & to choose from ways to end your suffering (and your life). Yes, they are going to push SUICIDE to cut Medicare spending! Health care will be denied based on age. $500 bil will be cut from seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and sickest will be cut first

  • My wife is a nurse and she is not onboard.

  • Stop Barack Obama from stealing the wealth of the working man to fund his spending sprees and wasteful agendas.

    The man is a consummate liar and thief.

  • Why does Nancy pelosi and the rest of the dems refuse to sign House Resolution 615. Because the Bill they want you to have is not good enough for them.WAKE UP PEOPLE!

  • Nancy refuses to sign because she knows it would be political suicide. Defeat Nancy Pelosi in the next election.

    End her politicial career forever!

  • President Obama, what it taking so long to pass universal healthcare?? This is why why I voted for you!! I have not spoken to anyone who is against universal healthcare!!

  • Not against universal healthcare? How/who will pay for it? Certainly not the leeches that expect it. Quit digging into my pocket and get a real JOB

  • Same here, everyone I speak to is not happy with their Heath insurance and wants a Public plan because its better then nothing!

  • This guy thinks he is king.

  • And the unwashed masses think he is too

  • Watch the Movie "Sicko" and then put things on balance and then criticize and or opposed the president but not until you learn all the facts

  • the american people are NOT on board

  • how true. osama bama can say it a million times, but that don't make it so. people don't want a government run healthcare system.

  • Also, in Europe you can go to one of 27 different countries to get health care, why would anyone from the EU come here?

    I have many European friends, and they are UNIVERSALLY horrified when I tell them about how health care is in the US.

  • Ted-

    That is an extremely bad argument. So what you want to take away everyone's guns and make them eat health? That might be nice, but I just want to make sure people have equal opportunity to health care. Besides as the top cause of death in the US are heart disease, cancer and stroke - not violent deaths; that doesn't even make top ten.

    As for the infant mortality rate, I used the CIA world fact book, sorry if the US government doesn't agree with you.

  • Funny, I used the Danish governments stats from their report to the WHO and then compared that against other European countries. I'm right.

    Yes, if you don't include those dead under 7 days old or under weight, their infant mortality is lower. Denmark, ie, is 5.4 (out of 1,000) and we are 6.9 but Denmark's infant mortality rate for those under 7 days or under weight is 15.3.

  • The guns and butter argument was meant to be sarcastic and our health-related deaths isn't much worse, especially given how much worse our diet and exercise are.

  • Interesting the government health care works pretty well in Western Europe. They have higher life expectancy (US #42) and lower infant mortality and pay half of what we do (16% vs 8% GDP).

    But if it troubles all of you so greatly to have a higher standard of living, I guess you deserve the system you've got. Enjoy your decreased lifespans, social-darwinists.

  • Only b/c the skew the #s, at least as far as infant mortality rates. In Europe, a baby that dies b4 the age of 7 days or doesn't attain a certain weight is not considered a viable person and therefore is not included in mortality rates.

    As for life expectancy, our lives are shortened by our more violent society and poor eating habits, not by the health care system that Europeans travel here to take part of.

  • "not by the health care system that Europeans travel here to take part of."

    We have the best surgeons, hospitals etc. The issue isn't whether America is at the leading edge of technological advances. We always have been. The issue is the fact that it is extremely difficult for many people to afford to be treated with top notch quality care. The fact that rich foreigners travel to America to get medical treatment is not an argument that supports the status quo.

  • Yeah, me too.

    But D'ohBama care seeks to limit access to tests and treatments to some people. (Page 52) This doesn't sound like more accessible...

    Add in the fact that the more government and insurance is involved in maintenance healthcare the more expensive it gets; why would we want more?

    You get more maintenance care by skipping insurance and paying cash while maintaining catastrophic care for real emergencies.

  • "But D'ohBama care seeks to limit access to tests and treatments to some people. (Page 52) This doesn't sound like more accessible..."

    Stop repeating what republican politicians and pundits tell you. First of all politicians, both democrats and republicans, don't give a rats ass about us. They're humans. Most humans tend to care only about themselves. So when money is involved you can bet that those fuckers will screw us over. The public option is bad for private ins. comps. who buy politicians

  • Well of course politicians are selfish greedy ego monsters; I used to be one (small time), I know that.

    That's why we should all weigh their statements for the likelihood of truthfulness - determined by the amount of verifiable facts - and their conclucsions weighed to see if that is a logical conclusion.

    It's not logical to say that D'ohBama care will improve the treatment of patients if, as a matter of law, patients will be denied treatment under his plan.

    More to follow.

  • Its also not logical to say that D'ohBama care protects patient choice if, under the plan, the first time there is ANY change in your plan (change jobs, job changes plans, add a dependent) you lose your right of choice.

    Nor is it logical to say that private insurance is protected if, under the plan, you have to tell the IRS what type of plan you have and if you're not in an "approved" plan you are fined $2,500 and then forced into an approved plan.

    D'ohBama is not a logical person.

  • "Its also not logical to say that D'ohBama care protects patient choice if, under the plan, the first time there is ANY change in your plan (change jobs, job changes plans, add a dependent) you lose your right of choice."

    That part isn't true. You will always have a choice.

  • Wrong, I can't - at this moment - recall if it is on page 16 or 52, but it is clear that you lose choice in this plan.

  • choice of what? Be clear. Because I don't think you even know what you're talking about. You're just regurgitating the false information disseminated by republican propagandists. Be specific in what you mean by "loss of choice".

  • "You get more maintenance care by skipping insurance and paying cash while maintaining catastrophic care for real emergencies."

    That makes sense for home insurance. I don't know about health. But I like that you're thinking outside the box. The problem is, insurance companies will not like that. And they pay a lot of money to make sure that politicians let them keep their lucrative job.

    I don't know. It doesn't sound like a bad idea but it might have flaws that I haven't taken into account.

  • Sure it works; it also costs less.

    Anecdotal story: My boss' son is a dentist here in Vegas. He has the latest equipment and techniques but charges FAR less (sometimes HALF) of other dentists. Why? How does he still have a paycheck to cover his Porsche and Land Rover?

    He refuses to do ANY business with insurance companies. No insurance paperwork, lower overhead. It costs him less money to run his shop so then he can charge less while also paying his employees more!

    It works!

  • that would drive private insurance companies out of work except a few who handle insurance for catastrophic situations. I wouldn't mind that. I don't know why we should pay insurance for little doctor visits. The point of insurance is to have a safety net for when things go FUBAR and the surgery costs a million dollars. I don't need insurance for a doctor visit that would otherwise cost only 50 bucks if it wasn't for insurance companies making profits off of them.

  • obama doesn't get it. nobody wants this socialistic proposal. it is true that this doesn't work and yes, if you're old and you need life saving treatment, then it sucks to be you.

  • the next generation of americans will be laughing at you and looking at you with contempt for opposing the public option.

    Just like today's generation looks at the segregationists of the 60's and look at them with disgust. You're not gonna get any respect from your grandkids I'll tell you that right now.

  • poker, when the next generation & the generation after them realize they are responsible for paying back the trillions because of obamus's reckless & liberal spending, it is people like you who support this phony we have in the white house that will not get respect. They'll be asking why did you do it to us. Keep drinking the obamus kool aid.

  • Average Americans are scientifically and financially illiterate. You're probably guilty of both but your financial illiteracy is very transparent.

    I suggest that you read "Rich dad Poor dad". The only way to improve cash flow is to spend money. If you want to go broke stop investing money altogether. Also what you're spending money on is extremely important. Rich people spend money on assets that generate more money. Poor people spend way too much on liabilities that make them poorer.

  • if you have any elderly loved ones, this plan will kill them. my father just had a 4x bypass at 75 years old. under obamas plan, he would be put to the end of the list and would probably die waiting... NO to this damn government health care.

  • end of WHAT list? What you are spouting is lies and scare tactics. Stop your bullshit.

  • YOU stop YOUR bullshit. theyre doing this shit in canada and europe, and ITS NOT WORKING. DO YOUR HOMEWORK or go live somewhere else

  • 0:19 one little correction...we, the american people are not on board.

    In fact many Democrats, are not on board.

  • Speak for yourself.

  • %72 is "on board". %51 would be "on board". So more is still "on board".

  • Comment removed

  • I hope that BHO knows that he will be hearing from US if this healthcare sham is passed

  • Speak for yourself.

  • Obama: It is time for us to fuck up people.

  • I am optimistic. So far there has been no viable opposition to the fix. We hear too much from the greedy fearful douche bags in the right wing, but they hate America and want us to fail.

  • Yes, Great D'ohBama, keep pushing for Socalized healthcare. I love watching your poll numbers drop.

    Eventully, every American that doesn't blindly follow the liberal lie will be saying "D'oh! We elected who?"

  • time for us to fuck up.....

  • I want Ron Paul in office NOW

  • lol

  • Canada is kicking ass and taking names!

  • Obama, all i have to say to you is Speak For Your Fucking Self. The American people know that your crazy health care system will bankrupt our country in a time of recession. Not to mention put more government control into our (already too much government controlled lives). Please send letters to your congressman and state officials to tell them your thoughts. Obama speaks as if he just ignores us and our views as America. This has to stop.

  • I will tell you what I told the other guy. Latest poll says 70% of Americans want the public option.

  • When is the last time anyone you know filled out any of these polls your hearing about. Poll's mean nothing

  • The polls are scientific. They take a groups of people from diffrent states and they poll them. Thats not just how they do it though. There is a math equation that they do. Its pretty accurate. CNN said Obama was ahead of McCain by about 7% he won by about 6.8%. I find it funny though. Righys tend to dismiss these polls when they dont agree with them. But polls that say Obamas ratings are down are the only thing I hear from rightys.

  • haydh shut the fuck stupid bitch, 70% of american want healthcare, your probably a spoiled bitch, who can buy healthcare, who can buy education, not all people are so fucking privalage. So get your ass out of your big asshole motherfucker, Im tired of son of bitchs like you.

  • jaydh78: You mean like it's bankrupted Canada? Take a look at the relative debt/deficit as a percentage of GDP between the two countries, not to mention the ratio of personal debt - in part because so many Americans end up financially ruined trying to provide health care for themselves, especially in a time of crisis. Do your research!

  • I don't remember Canada declaring bankruptcy. If times get hard, we'll sell you Alberta.

  • Re-read my post. The question to jaydh78, who claimed the public option would bankrupt the US, was rhetorical.

  • Lolz. That would kill the Canadian Economy. What does Canada have that Canada needs to sell?

    Oil. The largest exporter of Oil in the world, Alberta. More than Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and any other Middle Eastern Country. But *they* don't want you do know that.

  • The price of oil these days is not making it very profitable to extract it from the tar sands. What an environmental disaster it is too, and a total waste of fresh water resources. I would be happy to see Canada no longer involved in this shameful project.

  • Comment removed

  • I recommend listening to Donald Trump's suggestions about O.P.E.C before you go on an Oil rant.

  • well fishhead06, Canada wasn't in the middle of a FINANCIAL CRISIS when they implemented their health care system, nor did they spend almost 2 trillion dollars on stuff that has obviously not stimulated our economy. Obama also pledged before he took office, that he would not raise taxes to anyone making under 250 thousand. (lie) Everything he is doing is going to sink us farther in the hole were already in. Lets be clear I'm not saying Obama got us into this, but is defiantly making it worse

  • Someone in power is finally listening to the people, not ignoring them, jaydh78.

  • woops sorry I was trying to say 9% call themselves conservatives.

  • Man... (F)(U)(C)(K) OBAMA!!!

    "The American people are on board"

    my A55!!

    I don't know where Obama is getting his sources from but the last time I checked.. the American people were waking up from their comas at an alarming rate.

    Our Troops are starting to drop out of the Military!! LOL!!

    Obama, Kiss your second term GOODBYE!!

  • last poll said 70% of Americans want a public option. So I would have to say hes right. Americans are on board.

  • what rubbish are you talking about? it is seriously wayyy too early to write off Obama winning a second term yet. unless something really bad happens / becomes apparent to the public of happening in the next 3 years Obama will likely DESTROY in 2012. the GOP is in shambles right now, until they get their act together it's a free ride for 44.

  • Asphyxiafeeling..

    Now, you said that "Unless something really bad happens/ becomes apparent to the public ECT.. that Obama will DESTROY in 2012."

    Haven't you seen the ratings of CNN and MSNBC??? LOL

    (FOX NEWS IS KILLING IT RIGHT NOW!! )

    Again, the American people are waking up from their comas.

  • Also I would like to point out to you the latest poll dont of American scientist. (% call themselves conservatives. 55% call themselves liberals. And heres the biggy. 14% call themselves ultra liberals. LOL I like that.

  • Thats right, and Congress will be hearing from us until they pass Universal HealthCare!!!

  • i'm not on board

  • Obama continuing to bankrupt this nation. Please, add one more project so we can all suffer.

  • do you believe that an economic crisis can be over within a few months?

  • I feel like this guy has my back

  • That's right Mr. President tell 'em how it's gonna go down. lol

  • i am jesus

  • Christians who are against health care for all Americans hate Jesus

  • You think Obama should resign? But Cheney/Bush was okay with you?

    Send Sarah Palin some money!!! Thats about your speed.

  • Still beating that tired old drum tao? is there something in your water that induces you to repeat that tired and laughable mantra, i.e. if you oppose Obama you automaticly support ,"or were a supporter of " Bush? intelectual honesty will bring you to the conclusion that there is 0 difference between dems and repubs. C"mon 20 billion to impose an electronic medical database on every U.S. citizen? , do you support that ? indefinite detention, on and on , this is big bro. on ritalin . peace

  • You should maybe ask yer shrink to change the dosage of yer meds, ' cause the current amount just ain't doin' the trick.

  • drug free and never needed a shrink. neither drugs nor shrinks work .

  • Gee, feeling more delusional than usual today I see.

  • No, that's how he usually is.  =P

  • US dollar since 1971 has had no backing (Gold)

    Its all paper.

    So when it implodes so does all the rest of the "paper" its based on.

    That's a Truth...

  • A U.S. Army Reserve major from Florida scheduled to report for deployment to Afghanistan within days has had his military orders revoked after he argued that he should not be required to serve under a president who has not proved his legitimacy under Article II of the Constitution. ("No person, except a natural-born citizen,...shall be eligible...")

  • So, he's a pussy who wans to argue about birth certificates that have already been shown instead of defending and serving his country? Haha, good story. Tell that racist redneck republican pussy to get to work and stop being a little bitch.

  • He didn't want to proceed with his deployment because if captured by the enemy he would be a war criminal and have no protection under the Geneva Convention.

    Obama's status as Commander and Chief is in Jeopardy.

    Also anybody that doesn't want to be deployed can use the same argument in court.

  • No, he's the President, that argument is not valid in any way. His order's have been revoked only in the sense that he is no longer being allowed to serve overseas (thankfully...we don't need anti-Americans in the Army), and has a court hearing this Thursday in which he will most likely be court-martialed for refusing an order and renouncing his Commander in Chief. You can keep dreaming if you think this guy is leading some sort of military coup.

  • My interpretation on what's going on is this "volunteer" wanted to serve but because Obama hasn't provided proof of his eligibility his "Commander and Chief Status in in question.

    If the "volunteer" known knew that Obama isn't' eligible he could be regarded as a "war criminal" if captured and have no protection under the Geneva Convention.

    So the burden of proof was on the "Military" to prove Obama is a valid "Commander and Chief".

    Otherwise they would have proven it instead of rescinding orders

  • Your interpretation is demonstrably wrong.

    This "coward birther" volunteered for Afghanistan long after President Obama was elected and sworn into office. A couple of weeks after volunteering, he squawked like a chicken and then informed the military he wasn't going to go. And after that, he filed an unnecessary lawsuit with nutbag birther lawyer and grifter Orally Taintz, and the military refused to play along with the publicity stunt. His employer humiliated by this, he was fired.

  • Excellent Smithers....

    Registration of a Live Birth - Needed to prove Obama is qualified to hold "President Title".

    Has this document been proved to taxpayers for their inspection.

    Well shut my mouth no it hasn't.

  • oh that's rich, a right-wing pussy is all of a sudden concerned with the Geneva Conventions. bet your weren't saying that during the cheney-torture debates.. LOL

    why do right wingers HATE America so much?

  • I don't hate anybody my question is why do the folks in power hate the US constitution so much ?

    Anybody passing themselves off as a President and not able to produce a simple document will have his title taken away.

    Otherwise Treaties like the Geneva convention are in suspension until you get a legitimate President .

    Its a matter of law not pussy...unless there are no laws ???

    The FACT that Cheney, Bush are free men shines even more light on Obama's administration. (Deceptive)

  • He has shown the birth certificate, this was resolved forever ago.

    No republican can claim love of the constitution. On your watch, you sad idly by and smiled as Bush and Cheney tied down the constitution and RAPED it with the Patriot Act, The Military Commissions Act, and The Protect America Act. Republican's have done more damage to the constitution and our way of life than any terrorist could have EVER HOPED to do.

  • "He has shown the birth certificate " - Yes

    The short version of the Birth Certificate doesn't proof that he's "Natural Born" - Registration of a live Birth does.

    - Why isn't media explaining the difference ????

    Yes, good point why isn't Bush and his crew on trial for the murder of 5,000 patriots, fraud, coercion, etc Bush broke ever law on the books.

  • I don't know if he's a pussy or not, but it was never his intention to serve in Afghanistan.  He actually requested to serve in Afghanistan in May, they processed his request, and when his orders came through in June he refused to go, citing this reason.

    Obviously his intention was never to serve in Afghanistan. His intention was to create an excuse to send another whack-job "birther" court challenge to Obama through the courts.

  • I know. The birther is a pussy, like all birthers.

  • Gee how much they paying for the gig ?

  • You have to admire how dedicated he is to pushing this even with the cowards in congress dragging their feet.

  • Oh lordy! JESUS IS BLACK !!!

    lol jk jk jk

  • Well he certainly wasn't a smooth-haired blue-eyed white guy...

  • JESUS IS MUSLIM

  • LOL most likely!

    problem is muhamed came after Jesus had been crucified.

    Islam is derived from christianity

  • Jesus is Lord

  • I heard he was a zombie

  • obama may be a zombie

  • Wait if jesus is lord then what is god?

  • Jesus is God in flesh... John 1:1-8

  • Jesus hates turdinlasvegas

  • jesus was just a dude. God is a delusion

    -Common Sense for dummies chapter 3 page 72

  • One day, you will change you mind.

    I hope that day comes before you meet your Maker; otherwise, you'll regret your obstinance.

  • how do I go about explaining this to you....

    How do you teach calculus to a retard? You can't. By the same token I don't think I can teach someone ignorant how belief in biblical god is childish.

    Let's just put it this way. 93% of the members of the national academy of sciences don't believe in god. MENSA members and college professors are significantly less likely to believe in god. Also only 6% of scientists are republicans according to the recent poll by Pew Research.

    idiots believe in god

  • I don't know if your post worked for your intended target, but I like it!

  • So what? I really don't care what MENSA thinks.

    "The fools shall be made wise and the wise, fools."

    Belief in God, or even a god, is not a matter for science anyway; its about faith. If you could prove God's existence with science, you wouldn't have faith - you'd have proof.

    But faith is a necessary element of salvation, for "We are saved by grace through FAITH." If you could prove God's existence, no one could be saved from thier sins. God isn't cruel; he wants you to be saved.

  • Besides, popularity doesn't make someone right.

    NAZIs were popular in Germany in 1940; that didn't make them right.

    It was once a popular belief that lead could be turned into gold; that didn't make it true.

    America thought our president is a great man, but he's still a dolt - foolish enough to believe that Socialism will help rather than destroy.

    Popularity doesn't mean a thing. In this case, it just means a bunch of people who think they're smart are acutally fools.

  • It's not a matter of popularity.

    It's a simple fact that the more you know about nature the less you're likely to believe in god. And the lower your level of education is the more likely you are to believe in god.

    "The fools shall be made wise and the wise, fools."

    That contradicts reality. Another example of how the bible fails to describe reality. Do you not see that even among christians the more fundamental someone is the less intelligent they are likely to be?

  • "America thought our president is a great man, but he's still a dolt - foolish enough to believe that Socialism will help rather than destroy."

    Give your best proof that Obama is a socialist. Name just one please.

  • This "heathcare"plan scam...'Nuf said

  • I asked you what makes obama a socialist and your reply is "healthcare"?

    If you think having public healthcare option makes America a socialist country then the presidents who created public schools, income tax, food stamps, etc were socialists dumbass. If you want to call obama a socialist be my guest. But don't lie and say this is a completely new direction we're going in. We've always had the same elements in government. And you don't think the current healthcare system is a scam?

  • Yes, we've been tending more and more socialist over the decades.

    Thats how we got into the mess...!

  • Was voting for Bush a socialist move?

  • You're an idiot. If you think that public education, income tax, welfare or any other government programs led to the housing market collapse and the downfall of major banks then you're beyond any help because you're simply not rational.

    "just fewer than 500 were rejected, during that time (before Nicea), for inaccuracies."

    Books that christians didn't like back then were burned and eradicated forever. But we do know they cherry picked what went into the bible.

  • You're nuts. Christians were burning books?

    That is an act of government and Christians, at that time, were enemies of the state.

    Go get a real education; be prepared to learn something contrary to the public-school propoganda you've been fed.

  • You're right. The early christians were eager to kill pagans and heretics but they never burned any of their books that were critical of christianity. They never would have gone that far.

    Riiiightt. I have a better explanation. Look up Arian controversy.

    Emperor constantine took the position that Jesus is god "The Father and I are one"-John 10:30

    Arius said he was a prophet "the Father is greater than I"-John 14:28

    Guess who won? The one with the power.

  • "Reconstructing the life and teachings of Arius is problematic. None of Arius' original writings remain in existence. Emperor Constantine ORDERED THEIR BURNING while Arius was still living, and any that survived were later destroyed by his opponents (the Church). Those works which have survived are quoted in the works of churchmen who denounced him as a heretic, leading some but not all scholars to question their reliability."

  • Constantine was a Catholic, which separated itself from Christianity prior to Nicea.

  • "Constantine was a Catholic, which separated itself from Christianity prior to Nicea."

    How is this relevant? They burned books that were opposed to the trinity doctrine that you believe today. You believe in the trinity because of Constantine because he was the one who made it the official doctrine.

    "You have no evidence that Christians were burning books prior to Nicea"

    I don't? To me the precise timeline is irrelevant. But since you care you should learn about Marcion.

  • "Emperor Constantine ORDERED THEIR BURNING while Arius was still living, and any that survived were later destroyed by his opponents (the Church)."

    The church did burn books that were critical of chrsitainity. There is no way to know how many and what information was lost. The only reason we know about Marcion and Arius is because their detractors documented about what they believed. But obviously you can't count on people to give an accurate description of their enemies.

  • They burned books that were critical of catholicism.

    The catholics also burned a lot of Christians with their books.

  • "They burned books that were critical of catholicism."

    They burned Arius's books which opposed the doctrine of trinity. They also excommunicated Marcion and burned his books for heresy and called him the "first born of Satan".

    These are just people we know only because christians documented who they were: heretics. So we're lucky to even know that such people existed. If there were any other heretics who weren't documented by the christians we wouldn't be able to learn about them today.

  • You keep making a distinction between catholics and christians.

    Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity. More than half of all christians are catholics. The fact that you disagree with them does not mean they are not christians. I don't hear catholics saying that protestants aren't christians.

    You might be able to get away by saying that mormons aren't christians but you sound like an idiot when you say catholics aren't christians.

  • You don't know much about Catholism then.

    Part of their dogma is that their "church" is the only way to Heaven, which is one telling reason why catholics cannot accurately claim to be Christian for Jesus said that He was the way, the truth and the life; not some church.

  • By your definition the only christians are the people who subscribe to what you subscribe to.

    If you think catholics aren't christians based on your opinion that their idea of christianity is not what jesus intended to convey then you must say that pentecostals, methodists, puritans, calvinists, anglicans, lutherans, etc are all non-christians. Assuming that you don't subscribe to any of the above asinine doctrines.

    You're all equally stupid and delusional if you ask me. I'm fair.

  • Don't get me wrong, some (perhaps even most) in those denominations are Christians, but that doesn't make their church Christ-Like. The catholic church certainly isn't Christ-Like.

  • "You're nuts. Christians were burning books?"

    Am I nuts because I believe what historians say about christians burning heretical books based on evidence? Or are you willfully ignorant?

    Is it just a coincidence that facts don't matter to fundamentalist christians and republicans?

    Oh wait a minute.... fundamentalist christians are almost exclusively republicans. Are you seeing what I'm seeing here? No of course not. You don't care about facts.

  • You have no evidence that Christians were burning books prior to Nicea, which was your claim. Yet you say I have a problem with facts?

    Look in the mirror, fool.

  • "You have no evidence that Christians were burning books prior to Nicea, which was your claim."

    Making stuff up again. I said early christains burned books. I didn't specifically say christians were burning books prior to nicea. You really don't care about facts do you?

  • Christians weren't burning books; Catholics were burning books.

    And THAT didn't happen until AFTER Nicea.

    Please try to keep up.

  • Marcion was before Nicea.

    And it doesn't matter if it were the christians burning books or the catholics. Because I'm not making the argument that christians were evil. We already know they were sadistic bastards who tortured and burned non-believers alive(You really think they burned heretics but not their books?).

    I am merely countering the claim by christians that the bible is a special book that has been free of any contamination or criticism in the past.

  • There you go with your public-school propoganda again.

    No, Christians have not been burning heretics. In fact, it was Christians who were most often burnt at the stake by Catholics.

  • First of all I have gone over this with some christians previously, but I still don't get why you guys don't call catholics christians. They accept that jesus was the son of god and worship him.

    I hope you answer that for my benefit, but the answer is really irrelevant here. Because We know catholics killed heretics gratuitously and without mercy. So that brings down the credibility of the origin and legitimacy of the bible because it honest scrutiny and criticism were punishable by death.

  • "Go get a real education; be prepared to learn something contrary to the public-school propoganda you've been fed."

    Why do you guys hate education so much?

    93% of national academy of science members don't believe in god and none of the remaining 7% are fundamentalist christians.

    Is that because you guys are too stupid to make it that far in education? Or is it because knowledge cures irrationality?

    Either way it sure does show how your opinions come from the position of ignorance.

  • I LOVE education. I just not a heard follower.

    You should read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions". Most scientists are the dumbest smart people around.

  • "Most scientists are the dumbest smart people around."

    You people don't care about facts. You believe what you want to believe. You're an idiot if you actually believe that claim. The fact that some people with extremely unbalanced intellect become scientists doesn't mean most are dumb. You're the idiot. And no you don't love education. You love propaganda.

  • teddy poo bear -- most people didn't agree with nazism in germany -- but they had strict measures for people who spoke out against them that kept people from doing so. political prisoners got torture that makes cheney look like santa claus. well maybe not. i still fondly remember being very vocal about bush/cheney in 2002 and getting my house raided. its fun having police boots pushing your face into your driveway.

  • Did you get raided for speaking out? (Why didn't I get raided too then???) or for some other reason......

    My guess is it was something else...

  • The history of alchemy is long and misunderstood. While the gold thing is a popular wives tale, the alchemists were the founders of chemistry. they also sought  wisdom and health -- predating aristotle and hippocrates. they discovered lots of great stuff we still use today -- from glass and pottery glazes to liquer. please don't poop on alchemists..

  • dude think about it. How can god and jesus be one in the same.

    think about it logically, are you and your father one in the same?

    The answer is very very simple.

    Jesus is the SON of christ, he is not to be worshipped God is to be worshipped. Jesus NEVER ONCE told anyone to pray to him. and I dare you to find me ONE scripture where jesus said to pray to him and not god.

    The philosophy of the tri un godis a concept created by man to skirt around the "sin" of worshipping more than one god.

  • So, the wisemen (Matt 2:11), the lepers (M 8:2), ruler (M 9:18), disciples (M 14:33 & 28:9), James' and John's mom (M 20:20), the angels (Heb 1:6) were all wrong?

    Philip, an apostle, once asked Jesus to show him God the Father. (John 14:8) Jesus' response? "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, show us the Father." (J 14:9)

    A few lines later: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do" (J 14:13)

    You were saying?

  • you do know that the bible was written by men right? Its autheticity is HIGHLY questionable, considering that the church at the time of transcribing the bible was obsessed with maintaining power and influence. You also know that the books of the bible were specifically chosen, and several books rejected by the council of nicaea

    Think about it logically, its highly plausible that the scripture WAS altered to make worshiping jesus as god, not be considered a sin (i.e worshiping more than one god)

  • I would consider your argument if I hadn't already thought and researched the issue.

    Did you realize the opinions of the Supreme Court aren't actually written by the Justices or that the letters from the President aren't actually written by him? Does that make those writings invalid just because others wrote what those people told them to write? The writers of the Bible were, mostly, no better than scribes, writing what God told them to.

  • then how do you explain the scriptures they chose to reject when compiling the bible?

    Dude please.... They werent scribes writing what god told them in the least. They were men assembling and creating a religion.

    They later came up with bullshit doctrines to explain away inconsistencies picked up by worshipers who decided to exercise their right to think.

    And also up till now you havent shown me ONE scripture where jesus exalted him self as lord and equal to God.

    He never once did it.

  • Guess you're not really open to debate, otherwise you'd realized I already provided evidence contrary to your contentions.

  • Secondly, there are just more than 5,000 known, 1st century writings of the New Testament (originals and copies of originals in various languages of the day); or, writings that could be judged by writers themselves or their contemporaries.

    Out of those 5,000-odd writings, just fewer than 500 were rejected, during that time (before Nicea), for inaccuracies. Majority text Bibles are based on those that weren't rejected by 1st century Christians.

  • Its also similar to what the catholics to do with Mary. Do you know several catholics pray to mary? and see her as a divine figure? she has NO divinity.

    Also if Jesus and God are one in the same why would Jesus pray to himself? Why would he give us the, "our father" prayer?

    I dont think Jesus wanted us to worship him he wanted us to worship God.

    In this case I think Islam got it right, they dont see Jesus or Muhammed as God but as a messenger from god.

  • The purpose of the "our father" prayer was a response to the disciples request for instruction on how to pray.

    Jesus is God and faith in His finished work on Calvary Mtn and subsequent resurrection is the only means to salvation. "For there is no other name, under Heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved."

  • There is NO scriptural reference for a reason to pray to her; in fact, Jesus said she needed him for salvation as much as any of the rest of us.

    Yes, she is blessed amongst women; but she was still just a woman. A very Godly woman and perhaps the best woman ever, but she was just as need of the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ as I am and you are.

  • Dont get me wrong, im not some athesist out to attack christianity or anyones faith, Im simply saying that one should study it and think deeply about whats being said and not just take things at face value.

    Christianiy is so corrupted in fact all religions are so corrupted, that if one truly wants to be a follower of God, one should keep an open mind and study all 3 religions, absorb whats common to all 3 and reject whats irrelevant and false. One should study judism, christianity and islam.

  • 'Pubs are already saying they have a better/alternative plan... which is: attacking their characterizations of the Democratic plan. (Not unlike their 19-page "alternative budget".)

    No plan. Zip. "Just Say 'No'."