I want to limit my responses to atleast three at a time for the sake of time.
I think this isn't a intellectual problem but an emotional problem. People from all spectrum of human intelligence believe or don't believe so this can't be the deciding factor. What I do see is that people who don't believe also don't like religion. If they where attracted to religion they would be theists but their not they remain atheist. This is all in the emotional arena.
I won't speak for others, but my atheism is a product of my intellect and rejection of emotional arguments for such things as afterlives. I'm an atheist as I have not been presented with credible evidence for the existence of any god or gods. Heck, even if some afterlife was shown to occur for us, that would not necessitate the existence of a deity. Two separate questions.
As for not liking religions, well, depends on the religion and what it advocates.
@rohanwotan2 There is nothing wrong with emotional arguments especially when they are good and true. I believe you made a few emotional arguments about how you disliked seeing your mother suffer through anxiety and despair because she was afraid of the Catholic hell. Wasn't it your feelings of unjust and anger about what your mom went through that was the motivator for you rejecting your faith? If you saw Catholism in a brighter light like most do would you still intellectually reject it?
My Mother's death didn't cause me to leave christianity. She died when I was 16 or so and I was a christian till I was about 21-22. Arguments based on emotion tend to be bad arguments because they are not necessarily based in fact....if a specific argument happens to be true, it is by luck, not by design.
What exactly is a seeing catholicism in a "brighter light"? Show the evidence that crackers turn into flesh and why eating said flesh is good.
@rohanwotan2 "Arguments based on emotion tend to be bad arguments"
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Wasn't it how you saw your mom suffer from her Catholicism that was one of the deciding factors for you becoming an atheist?
"crackers turn into flesh"
Remarks like that sound very childish and this is why I don't think atheism is an intellectual position. I hear these kinds of remarks from atheists all the time.
Once again, my mother died when I was 16 or so, I didn't give up christianity until 21-22. Are you even reading my responses?
As for "crackers turning into flesh" sounding childish, take that up with the catholic church. It's their dogma, not mine. Pointing out the ridiculous aspects of patently absurd propositions is not "childish". it's holding people and institutions accountable for the drivel they produce.
@rohanwotan2 You talked about your mothers negative experience with Catholism and how you hated seeing her suffer for it. I'm assuming it's relevant to your decision in becoming an atheist. The question I've been trying to ask you is how important was that experience in determining you becoming an atheist. My follow up question is if your mother's Catholism was a positive force in her life would you have remained religious yourself or still become an atheist when you did.
I'm not sure her experience with catholicism was negative, at least from her perspective. Yes, she was filled with fear, but she embraced that fear and accepted it wholesale. Her experience with catholicism and her death had zero impact on my becoming an atheist. My experience of the world, the inherent contradictions within all theistic religions and the inescapable evidence that each and every one is hokum is what led me inevitably to atheism.
@rohanwotan2 In your video you said that you dwelled on your mothers fate and how it tormented you. I can't imagine how this did not impact your decision into becoming an atheist. "My experience of the world" that also includes the experience you had being tormented by the idea of your mom suffering in hell but you want me to believe this is the one exception to the rule, the one experience that didn't matter in your rejection of religion. I find that hard to believe.
The question of hell, especially in my Mother's case, was problematic, that is true. However at that time, I felt it must indicate a more compassionate god than allowed by the catholic church and most forms of christianity. That is why, in part, I noted that some may deny that I was a christian at that time. But I was still a theist, with at least the "god the father" vision of a god. Very far from an atheist or agnostic, by any measure.
@rohanwotan2 I suppose you did answer my question but I'm still not certain what to make of your reply. Did you say that your theism was a more positive force in your life at the time then your mothers view of her Catholism? If this is true why didn't your positive view of God comfort you and put your hellfire visions of the afterlife at rest? Why did your mothers vision of the afterlife trump your positive view of God?
Whether it was a positive force or not can be debated. As for the threat of hell, it is Jesus that provides that, so why would you think faith in god would alleviate it? Jesus is part of the alleged triune nature of god, so it is god himself that created, manages and maintains hell. And this isn't my mothers view of the afterlife, it is catholic dogma and also that of most christian sects like baptists, etc. I just happened to figure out neither god nor hell exists.
@rohanwotan2 You can tell us if your view of the afterlife was a postive or negative force in your life, yes it can be both but in the final analysis did it bring greater comfort or despair in your life. There are many ways to interpret what's in the bible and I take it holistically. To me the message of the bible is one of hope and salvation and God is just and fair. Yes there is a hell but you can avoid it and even get out of it once you repent your sins and call out to Jesus or God.
"Would a belief in an afterlife make me happier? I don't think so"
That's the part I'm having difficulty understanding. From what I know of the majority of human beings find comfort in the idea of an afterlife. If you where a theist you're saying you would rather be obliterated at the moment of death instead of existing as an immortal being in a higher state of existence with your loved ones. That can't be right so what is really going on here? I'm honestly at a lost.
Why would want to exist forever? And how exactly is such life achieved, as presumably we go to it without our constituent atoms? What does one do after say, the first quadrillion years of existence? And what if that quadrillion years is spent being roast alive again and again, with only infinity lying ahead?
And what happens when the universe experiences heat death? Where exactly does this afterlife occur? And why believe such a life exists, without evidence thereof?
@rohanwotan2 I think there is alot of false dilemmas presented here as the problems you presented wouldn't exist in a higher realm outside physicality. I don't think boredom exist with God. I've heard heaven described as dimensions of unending possibilities and actualities so why not look at it like that, why gravitate to a more negative view? I don't see the justification to assume that if there was a heaven it would have to suck so bad that oblivion is better.
I've presented false dilemmas? How are you able to declare them false? Present your evidence for the existence of any "dimension outside physicality". Basically all you are doing is presenting a modification of Pascal's Wager, using updated terminlogy doesn't make it any more convincing.
Show evidence that ANY version of heaven exists. Or perhaps evidence of ANY afterlife existing. You assume a lot of things: an afterlife, heaven, a god, specifically the christian one.
@rohanwotan2 No one knows how heaven is really like but from the Christian/Catholic interpetration I never heard of it described the way you did. We are both having a "for the sake of discussion" discussion where for the moment we grant the assertions are real (heaven, afterlife, etc). From what we know of heaven there are no problems, no strife in heaven. Where did you get your information that oblivion is better then heaven and why should I believe it?
Where did I agree that the assertion of a heaven existing is to be taken as granted? As for what you believe, that is up to you. You seem prepared to accept propositions without them being supported by evidence, simply because they "feel good" or are comfortable to you. I'm not willing to do that. Demonstrate the truth of the claims. Now, I've asked this several times.....provide the evidence that supports your claims. Do you have any?
@rohanwotan2 If you don't want to have a arguendo (sake of argument) about the afterlife then how do you justify your negative opinions of the afterlife if it does exist. You are appealing to a double standard where it's ok for you to assert your negative opinions of the afterlife but I'm not allowed to talk about the afterlife in a positive way because you say it's not real. A particular movie may be be fiction or non fiction but both are open for discussion.
You can make any claim you like about an afterlife. I've asked for two things: evidence of such an afterlife and an explanation of what this afterlife entails and how it is achieved. You've provided zero evidence and only assertions on the other count.
So, just tell me, why is it you believe an afterlife exists. What convinced you that such a thing is a valid proposition?
@rohanwotan2 I do have evidence on why I believe in God and why I consider myself a Christian. I do suppose it's fair to answer your questions as you answer mine but I don't want this topic to overtake the others we have. I believe in God for several reasons. I guess I will list the top three
Jesus Christ
Finely Tuned Universe
Near Death Experiences
Also from a personal perspective the Universe and life makes much more sense if there is God underneath it all.
I appreciate the answers, thank you. The answers create a host of questions, and some 400 characters is far too small a space. Let me say that I find the exchange enjoyable and stimulating, however, the format (that of Youtube and character limits) makes it clumsy. While PMs would simply the matter, it would cheat viewers of the exchange. Perhaps a video response or series of them is in order? Your thoughts?
@rohanwotan2 I'm enjoying the discussions as well as I never get the oppurtunity in my private life to debate atheism and I still have many questions and doubts about atheism I want to explore. We can chat online and record the conversation so others can enjoy it too. I'm not experience in setting this kind of stuff up but if you are I am willing to go along. I do have a mic and I'm usually free in the evenings and weekends.
Fair enough. Obviously this might take a bit of work, but I think a solution can be found that keeps folks (if any) following this conversation (now or in the future) in the loop, yet make it easier for us both to communicate. I don't know how my comments are presented by YT, but yours show up somewhat randomly placed. Not your fault by any means, simply a limitation of YT. But it does make it very hard for me to follow. I'll PM you later on ideas.
@rohanwotan2 If you have any ideas be free to send me a tell on my youtube mailbox, I'll do the same. I imagine it's not that hard as people do this kind of stuff all the time online.
I've always wondered how atheists handle the lose of loved ones, thank you for posting this video. The tools you used for going through the grieving process are universal to all humans, theist or not we all go through the same process.
Theists are different only that they add more tools to their grieving process in some cases it helps and in some it doesn't. I would prefer obliteration vs eternal torment. I have more questions if you don't mind having a discussion about this subject.
@rohanwotan2 One of the best coping tools I have as a Christian is the idea that my loved ones have a eternal soul and bodily death is only a long good bye and we will all be reunited in the hereafter. I say it's the best coping method is because it gives me the most sense of peace and hope.
As an atheist you don't share this belief. Do you find lacking this coping strategy impedes the healing process in someway? and do you think if you believed what I do that you could be a happier person?
@Theism411 Excellent questions. Having been a believer when I lost my Mother and now dealing with loss as an atheist, I actually find the process easier to deal with as an atheist. Now, it must be borne in mind that I'm 45 now, and was only a teen when Mom passed, so maturity surely plays a part as well. But, no, lacking a belief in an afterlife has not impeded my ability to accept my loss.
Would a belief in an afterlife make me happier? I don't think so......continued on next post
I don't deny that a belief in an afterlife can provide comfort, at least in some cases. However, my concern lies with the truth of the belief. And if it is only comfort that is sought, why choose the christian afterlife? Why not the Norse one or the Greco-Roman one? Why not reincarnation? The plain fact is, no one really knows what happens to our conciousness when we die.....but I don't know of any conciousness without a brain to support it.
@rohanwotan2 Christians believe the afterlife is true but for the sake of argument let's talk about the placebo effect. If I take a sugerpill that cures my chronic pain I don't care about the truth of it, I care about the practical help it actually gave me. We don't know for certain if a afterlife exists but for many believing in it gives real comfort, real hope and has benefetial health effects such as reduced depression and anxiety. So why not reap the benefits and live a life as a believer?
Good question, but it presumes that all religions address are matters of an afterlife. Religions do not hesitate to provide strictures about this life as in what we may eat, who we may have sex with, when we may do so and in what manner. Also, who we may or may not draw cartoons of, who we can associate with and all manner of nonsense and stupidity. For example, there are active movements to have creationism taken as literal and true. This would simply eviscerate science.
@rohanwotan2 If you claim to be a reasonable man how can you be so unreasonable and brush all of religion with the same brush? Some religions do what you said and some don't. But back to the original discussion you didn't address the placebo effect that some religious people experience that have positive benefits. The fact is there are many Catholics who find comfort in their religion and it gives practical benefits. You or your mom could have been one of those hundreds of millions but why not?
So if it makes us happy, it should be endorsed? I've seen folks on various drugs and intoxicants and they're pretty happy, at least while they're high, so should all of society be forced to take drugs? The problem with your placebo assertion is the same as with drugs....the effect isn't based in reality and causes one to become detached from reality. You can believe whatever you like if it makes you happy....but don't try to assert that it's real or reality. I choose reality.
@rohanwotan2 If the happiness improves a persons life then why not endorse it? Drugs and other abuses don't improve life ultimately it ruins it. The Placebo effect is a real phenomenon tested and validated by science so I don't see how you can say "the effect isn't based in reality". Happiness is living in reality and the placebo effect is a fact. I agree living a lie sucks but the placebo effect is not a lie it's the power of the mind to heal.
And being detached from reality improves ones life in what way? Happiness is not a sufficient goal to hold a belief. If it were, why not believe in the moslem paradise? People may "feel" better because of the placebo effect, but in terms of an afterlife, it simply is not based in reality...if you think it is, provide your evidence for an afterlife......like I've asked for previously.
@rohanwotan2 Like I've said before the placebo affect is reality and many people actually believe in an afterlife, what detachment of reality are you talking about? You are asserting there is no afterlife but that is only your opinion not a fact. If I was a muslim maybe I would believe in the Islamic afterlife and so would you. The practical benefit of the placebo effect still stands and the reality of a afterlife still stands. It would appear theism is useful and a rational position to hold.
The detachment from reality is that if you believe any proposition without sufficient evidence you are, by definition, deluded. I don't accept that belief in an afterlife or deity has a positive utility for the believer, but even if that were the case, the utility of the proposition has no bearing on the truth of the proposition. Dan Dennett's book "Breaking The Spell" is an excellent examination of the utility question. ISBN 0-670-03472-X.
@rohanwotan2 Many religious people have suffecient evidence to be persuaded into believing their religion to be true. No one believes in something they know is false. This is why I reject your "detachment from reality" argument because God and the afterlife is their reality and it's mine. Reality is concensus not a dictate. The life lived under the reality of God is a practical, benefitial life then one lived in a reality with out God. This is my point
Reality is not a consensus. Something is real or it is not. In the Medieval and Dark Ages most people believed the Earth was flat.....it is not. What a group of people believe has no bearing on the truth of the claim. Whether believers know their beliefs are false is not the issue....the issue is whether or not their beliefs are true. Crackers do not become flesh, 3 day old corpses do not resurrect and snakes do not talk. These things are simply not possible.
@rohanwotan2 This topic sheds light on why we differ in opinion so much about the afterlife. Dreams is a reality, you are in your dream you exist in it or you are the dreamer. Like in the Matrix people plugged into the matrix live their life in the reality of the computer simulation. This shows that your consciousness can operate in different states of total reality in all its forms.
Say you can never wake up from a dream is the dream your reality?
So god doesn't exist, we're in a computer program? Or this is the dream of a brain in a jar? Really, you want to go down this rabbit hole? Because both those arguments do not require the existence of a deity, you get that, right?
@rohanwotan2 I'm not advocating that we are living in a "artificial" reality, I was just saying that our consciousness can inhabit different levels of reality like in dreams or possible simulations. That is why the world of atoms and energy is not the only reality but one of many and this is why I object to your term what is real because I'm assuming you only mean what is physical and what is not. Dreams are as real as the physical universe when you're inside a dream just with different rules.
I want to limit my responses to atleast three at a time for the sake of time.
I think this isn't a intellectual problem but an emotional problem. People from all spectrum of human intelligence believe or don't believe so this can't be the deciding factor. What I do see is that people who don't believe also don't like religion. If they where attracted to religion they would be theists but their not they remain atheist. This is all in the emotional arena.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
I won't speak for others, but my atheism is a product of my intellect and rejection of emotional arguments for such things as afterlives. I'm an atheist as I have not been presented with credible evidence for the existence of any god or gods. Heck, even if some afterlife was shown to occur for us, that would not necessitate the existence of a deity. Two separate questions.
As for not liking religions, well, depends on the religion and what it advocates.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 There is nothing wrong with emotional arguments especially when they are good and true. I believe you made a few emotional arguments about how you disliked seeing your mother suffer through anxiety and despair because she was afraid of the Catholic hell. Wasn't it your feelings of unjust and anger about what your mom went through that was the motivator for you rejecting your faith? If you saw Catholism in a brighter light like most do would you still intellectually reject it?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
My Mother's death didn't cause me to leave christianity. She died when I was 16 or so and I was a christian till I was about 21-22. Arguments based on emotion tend to be bad arguments because they are not necessarily based in fact....if a specific argument happens to be true, it is by luck, not by design.
What exactly is a seeing catholicism in a "brighter light"? Show the evidence that crackers turn into flesh and why eating said flesh is good.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 "Arguments based on emotion tend to be bad arguments"
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Wasn't it how you saw your mom suffer from her Catholicism that was one of the deciding factors for you becoming an atheist?
"crackers turn into flesh"
Remarks like that sound very childish and this is why I don't think atheism is an intellectual position. I hear these kinds of remarks from atheists all the time.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Once again, my mother died when I was 16 or so, I didn't give up christianity until 21-22. Are you even reading my responses?
As for "crackers turning into flesh" sounding childish, take that up with the catholic church. It's their dogma, not mine. Pointing out the ridiculous aspects of patently absurd propositions is not "childish". it's holding people and institutions accountable for the drivel they produce.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 You talked about your mothers negative experience with Catholism and how you hated seeing her suffer for it. I'm assuming it's relevant to your decision in becoming an atheist. The question I've been trying to ask you is how important was that experience in determining you becoming an atheist. My follow up question is if your mother's Catholism was a positive force in her life would you have remained religious yourself or still become an atheist when you did.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
I'm not sure her experience with catholicism was negative, at least from her perspective. Yes, she was filled with fear, but she embraced that fear and accepted it wholesale. Her experience with catholicism and her death had zero impact on my becoming an atheist. My experience of the world, the inherent contradictions within all theistic religions and the inescapable evidence that each and every one is hokum is what led me inevitably to atheism.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 In your video you said that you dwelled on your mothers fate and how it tormented you. I can't imagine how this did not impact your decision into becoming an atheist. "My experience of the world" that also includes the experience you had being tormented by the idea of your mom suffering in hell but you want me to believe this is the one exception to the rule, the one experience that didn't matter in your rejection of religion. I find that hard to believe.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
The question of hell, especially in my Mother's case, was problematic, that is true. However at that time, I felt it must indicate a more compassionate god than allowed by the catholic church and most forms of christianity. That is why, in part, I noted that some may deny that I was a christian at that time. But I was still a theist, with at least the "god the father" vision of a god. Very far from an atheist or agnostic, by any measure.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 I suppose you did answer my question but I'm still not certain what to make of your reply. Did you say that your theism was a more positive force in your life at the time then your mothers view of her Catholism? If this is true why didn't your positive view of God comfort you and put your hellfire visions of the afterlife at rest? Why did your mothers vision of the afterlife trump your positive view of God?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Whether it was a positive force or not can be debated. As for the threat of hell, it is Jesus that provides that, so why would you think faith in god would alleviate it? Jesus is part of the alleged triune nature of god, so it is god himself that created, manages and maintains hell. And this isn't my mothers view of the afterlife, it is catholic dogma and also that of most christian sects like baptists, etc. I just happened to figure out neither god nor hell exists.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 You can tell us if your view of the afterlife was a postive or negative force in your life, yes it can be both but in the final analysis did it bring greater comfort or despair in your life. There are many ways to interpret what's in the bible and I take it holistically. To me the message of the bible is one of hope and salvation and God is just and fair. Yes there is a hell but you can avoid it and even get out of it once you repent your sins and call out to Jesus or God.
Theism411 9 months ago
"Would a belief in an afterlife make me happier? I don't think so"
That's the part I'm having difficulty understanding. From what I know of the majority of human beings find comfort in the idea of an afterlife. If you where a theist you're saying you would rather be obliterated at the moment of death instead of existing as an immortal being in a higher state of existence with your loved ones. That can't be right so what is really going on here? I'm honestly at a lost.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Why would want to exist forever? And how exactly is such life achieved, as presumably we go to it without our constituent atoms? What does one do after say, the first quadrillion years of existence? And what if that quadrillion years is spent being roast alive again and again, with only infinity lying ahead?
And what happens when the universe experiences heat death? Where exactly does this afterlife occur? And why believe such a life exists, without evidence thereof?
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 I think there is alot of false dilemmas presented here as the problems you presented wouldn't exist in a higher realm outside physicality. I don't think boredom exist with God. I've heard heaven described as dimensions of unending possibilities and actualities so why not look at it like that, why gravitate to a more negative view? I don't see the justification to assume that if there was a heaven it would have to suck so bad that oblivion is better.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
I've presented false dilemmas? How are you able to declare them false? Present your evidence for the existence of any "dimension outside physicality". Basically all you are doing is presenting a modification of Pascal's Wager, using updated terminlogy doesn't make it any more convincing.
Show evidence that ANY version of heaven exists. Or perhaps evidence of ANY afterlife existing. You assume a lot of things: an afterlife, heaven, a god, specifically the christian one.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 No one knows how heaven is really like but from the Christian/Catholic interpetration I never heard of it described the way you did. We are both having a "for the sake of discussion" discussion where for the moment we grant the assertions are real (heaven, afterlife, etc). From what we know of heaven there are no problems, no strife in heaven. Where did you get your information that oblivion is better then heaven and why should I believe it?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Where did I agree that the assertion of a heaven existing is to be taken as granted? As for what you believe, that is up to you. You seem prepared to accept propositions without them being supported by evidence, simply because they "feel good" or are comfortable to you. I'm not willing to do that. Demonstrate the truth of the claims. Now, I've asked this several times.....provide the evidence that supports your claims. Do you have any?
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 If you don't want to have a arguendo (sake of argument) about the afterlife then how do you justify your negative opinions of the afterlife if it does exist. You are appealing to a double standard where it's ok for you to assert your negative opinions of the afterlife but I'm not allowed to talk about the afterlife in a positive way because you say it's not real. A particular movie may be be fiction or non fiction but both are open for discussion.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
You can make any claim you like about an afterlife. I've asked for two things: evidence of such an afterlife and an explanation of what this afterlife entails and how it is achieved. You've provided zero evidence and only assertions on the other count.
So, just tell me, why is it you believe an afterlife exists. What convinced you that such a thing is a valid proposition?
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 I do have evidence on why I believe in God and why I consider myself a Christian. I do suppose it's fair to answer your questions as you answer mine but I don't want this topic to overtake the others we have. I believe in God for several reasons. I guess I will list the top three
Jesus Christ
Finely Tuned Universe
Near Death Experiences
Also from a personal perspective the Universe and life makes much more sense if there is God underneath it all.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
I appreciate the answers, thank you. The answers create a host of questions, and some 400 characters is far too small a space. Let me say that I find the exchange enjoyable and stimulating, however, the format (that of Youtube and character limits) makes it clumsy. While PMs would simply the matter, it would cheat viewers of the exchange. Perhaps a video response or series of them is in order? Your thoughts?
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 I'm enjoying the discussions as well as I never get the oppurtunity in my private life to debate atheism and I still have many questions and doubts about atheism I want to explore. We can chat online and record the conversation so others can enjoy it too. I'm not experience in setting this kind of stuff up but if you are I am willing to go along. I do have a mic and I'm usually free in the evenings and weekends.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Fair enough. Obviously this might take a bit of work, but I think a solution can be found that keeps folks (if any) following this conversation (now or in the future) in the loop, yet make it easier for us both to communicate. I don't know how my comments are presented by YT, but yours show up somewhat randomly placed. Not your fault by any means, simply a limitation of YT. But it does make it very hard for me to follow. I'll PM you later on ideas.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 If you have any ideas be free to send me a tell on my youtube mailbox, I'll do the same. I imagine it's not that hard as people do this kind of stuff all the time online.
Theism411 9 months ago
I've always wondered how atheists handle the lose of loved ones, thank you for posting this video. The tools you used for going through the grieving process are universal to all humans, theist or not we all go through the same process.
Theists are different only that they add more tools to their grieving process in some cases it helps and in some it doesn't. I would prefer obliteration vs eternal torment. I have more questions if you don't mind having a discussion about this subject.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Thanks very much for the kind words. And I certainly encourage questions and expressing your point of view, so fire away!
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 One of the best coping tools I have as a Christian is the idea that my loved ones have a eternal soul and bodily death is only a long good bye and we will all be reunited in the hereafter. I say it's the best coping method is because it gives me the most sense of peace and hope.
As an atheist you don't share this belief. Do you find lacking this coping strategy impedes the healing process in someway? and do you think if you believed what I do that you could be a happier person?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411 Excellent questions. Having been a believer when I lost my Mother and now dealing with loss as an atheist, I actually find the process easier to deal with as an atheist. Now, it must be borne in mind that I'm 45 now, and was only a teen when Mom passed, so maturity surely plays a part as well. But, no, lacking a belief in an afterlife has not impeded my ability to accept my loss.
Would a belief in an afterlife make me happier? I don't think so......continued on next post
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2
Continued from above.....
I don't deny that a belief in an afterlife can provide comfort, at least in some cases. However, my concern lies with the truth of the belief. And if it is only comfort that is sought, why choose the christian afterlife? Why not the Norse one or the Greco-Roman one? Why not reincarnation? The plain fact is, no one really knows what happens to our conciousness when we die.....but I don't know of any conciousness without a brain to support it.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 Christians believe the afterlife is true but for the sake of argument let's talk about the placebo effect. If I take a sugerpill that cures my chronic pain I don't care about the truth of it, I care about the practical help it actually gave me. We don't know for certain if a afterlife exists but for many believing in it gives real comfort, real hope and has benefetial health effects such as reduced depression and anxiety. So why not reap the benefits and live a life as a believer?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Good question, but it presumes that all religions address are matters of an afterlife. Religions do not hesitate to provide strictures about this life as in what we may eat, who we may have sex with, when we may do so and in what manner. Also, who we may or may not draw cartoons of, who we can associate with and all manner of nonsense and stupidity. For example, there are active movements to have creationism taken as literal and true. This would simply eviscerate science.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 If you claim to be a reasonable man how can you be so unreasonable and brush all of religion with the same brush? Some religions do what you said and some don't. But back to the original discussion you didn't address the placebo effect that some religious people experience that have positive benefits. The fact is there are many Catholics who find comfort in their religion and it gives practical benefits. You or your mom could have been one of those hundreds of millions but why not?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
So if it makes us happy, it should be endorsed? I've seen folks on various drugs and intoxicants and they're pretty happy, at least while they're high, so should all of society be forced to take drugs? The problem with your placebo assertion is the same as with drugs....the effect isn't based in reality and causes one to become detached from reality. You can believe whatever you like if it makes you happy....but don't try to assert that it's real or reality. I choose reality.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 If the happiness improves a persons life then why not endorse it? Drugs and other abuses don't improve life ultimately it ruins it. The Placebo effect is a real phenomenon tested and validated by science so I don't see how you can say "the effect isn't based in reality". Happiness is living in reality and the placebo effect is a fact. I agree living a lie sucks but the placebo effect is not a lie it's the power of the mind to heal.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
And being detached from reality improves ones life in what way? Happiness is not a sufficient goal to hold a belief. If it were, why not believe in the moslem paradise? People may "feel" better because of the placebo effect, but in terms of an afterlife, it simply is not based in reality...if you think it is, provide your evidence for an afterlife......like I've asked for previously.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 Like I've said before the placebo affect is reality and many people actually believe in an afterlife, what detachment of reality are you talking about? You are asserting there is no afterlife but that is only your opinion not a fact. If I was a muslim maybe I would believe in the Islamic afterlife and so would you. The practical benefit of the placebo effect still stands and the reality of a afterlife still stands. It would appear theism is useful and a rational position to hold.
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
The detachment from reality is that if you believe any proposition without sufficient evidence you are, by definition, deluded. I don't accept that belief in an afterlife or deity has a positive utility for the believer, but even if that were the case, the utility of the proposition has no bearing on the truth of the proposition. Dan Dennett's book "Breaking The Spell" is an excellent examination of the utility question. ISBN 0-670-03472-X.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 Many religious people have suffecient evidence to be persuaded into believing their religion to be true. No one believes in something they know is false. This is why I reject your "detachment from reality" argument because God and the afterlife is their reality and it's mine. Reality is concensus not a dictate. The life lived under the reality of God is a practical, benefitial life then one lived in a reality with out God. This is my point
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
Reality is not a consensus. Something is real or it is not. In the Medieval and Dark Ages most people believed the Earth was flat.....it is not. What a group of people believe has no bearing on the truth of the claim. Whether believers know their beliefs are false is not the issue....the issue is whether or not their beliefs are true. Crackers do not become flesh, 3 day old corpses do not resurrect and snakes do not talk. These things are simply not possible.
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 This topic sheds light on why we differ in opinion so much about the afterlife. Dreams is a reality, you are in your dream you exist in it or you are the dreamer. Like in the Matrix people plugged into the matrix live their life in the reality of the computer simulation. This shows that your consciousness can operate in different states of total reality in all its forms.
Say you can never wake up from a dream is the dream your reality?
Theism411 9 months ago
@Theism411
So god doesn't exist, we're in a computer program? Or this is the dream of a brain in a jar? Really, you want to go down this rabbit hole? Because both those arguments do not require the existence of a deity, you get that, right?
rohanwotan2 9 months ago
@rohanwotan2 I'm not advocating that we are living in a "artificial" reality, I was just saying that our consciousness can inhabit different levels of reality like in dreams or possible simulations. That is why the world of atoms and energy is not the only reality but one of many and this is why I object to your term what is real because I'm assuming you only mean what is physical and what is not. Dreams are as real as the physical universe when you're inside a dream just with different rules.
Theism411 9 months ago
Romans 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
stealthblack6 10 months ago
@stealthblack6
I don't know who marked you comment as spam, but I've marked it as "Not Spam".
You're still full of shit and have provided no new insight. Try again.
rohanwotan2 10 months ago