CNN/ YOUTUBE Debate q for Mitt Romney (War & Faith)

[gundyrage]

Stupid question.

[eligarf]

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[mjr256]

Wow, you got a guy on this forum who's both a 9/11 truther & a Ron-zombie--that's a powerful combination of irrationality.

[JustAsk70]

Not sure what you mean by that but I take it as some kind of insult. Responding to my comments with an insult just weakens your credibility and your point. Nevertheless - let me propose you are just as religious as Mitt Romney - just a different religion. You claim he is wrong for applying his religion to others - however you are doing the same with with Atheism.

[JustAsk70]

And Davis, its unfair to blame most of the conflicts in the world today on religion - they are in fact tribal in nature, not religious although religion is used as a rallying cry. You could use nationalism, religion, even Athiesm as a rallying cry for a war - but at their essence wars are almost exclusivly tribal.

[mjr256]

Speaking of naive comments. With spin like that, you should lobby for Big Tobacco.

[JustAsk70]

Hey Davis - if you could please comment on the fact that more people have died directly because of anti-religious ideologies in the past 60 years (Soviet Communism, Nazism) than have ever died because of religious motivated wars in over all of history.

[mjr256]

How many times must this argument be thoroughly refuted before disingenuous Christians stop using it? Hitler was a Roman Catholic, supported by the "infallible" Pope at the time. Secular Denmark was one of the few nations moral enough to take in Jews. & the other 20th century dictators demanded absolute obedience to the state like how religion demands absolute obedience to the church.

[JustAsk70]

So Hitler perpetrated the Holocaust in the name of Christ? New to me - in fact I don't think, in everything I have ever read of Hitler - he ever invoked religion to justify what he was doing. National Socalism touted the absense of religion - the state was the religion.

[l0gically]

He certainly did. Keep reading.

[JustAsk70]

From Wikipedia: "In later life, Hitler often praised the Christian heritage, German culture, and a belief in Christ. But his private statements, as reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but critical of Christianity...[81] Rather, Hitler advocated a "Positive Christianity",[83] a belief system purged from what he objected to in traditional Christianity, and which reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews."

[l0gically]

From the horse's mouth: "So I believe that I act in the spirit of the Almighty God: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

[JustAsk70]

So by using that language you belive that Hitler perpetrated the Holocaust because of Christianity? Did he intend to spread Christianity throughout Christian Europe? Could he not have invoked Christianity as a tool to legitmatize Nazism as he used anti-communism, anti-Judaism, ect.?

[l0gically]

I believe he used his faith, his belief that god was "on his side" to justify his actions. But that's entirely the problem...religion is at the root of so MUCH tragedy.

[JustAsk70]

war in Korea, Sudan, Rawanda, Vietnam, Tibet - no religion - these conflicts exist in the absense of religion. Its ok to critize, but not to critize absolutely.

[JustAsk70]

That is an interesting theory that you believe in, but a) its YOUR theory b) even if it was true, it doesn't say anything for religion - just about Hitler's warped since of truth. In fact- hitler used science to prove non-Aryans were inferior genetically.

[JustAsk70]

- on the entire page, "Christian" or "Catholic" shows up in relation to Hilters opponents, not hitler, and never in regards to Nazi ideology. The paraphrase above is the only comment, deep in the essay on hitler, that comments on his religion.

[OregonDARRYL]

George Carlin said long ago that religion is mental illness. That means an athiest would probably make the best president. I want a prez who discusses issues rationally with fellow legislators, rather than listening for voices. The primate is not ready to stand on his own, he must worship the big silverback (god).

[JustAsk70]

OregonDARRYL - you have a very outdated interpretration of faith and religion. Its not the same thing for everyone - and the religion you describe appears to predate human writing. Anway - George Carlin is a self described unhappy, unhopeful comedian - why would you quote him?

[mjr256]

I imagine he quoted Carlin because Carlin is a rare voice of reason in world full of delusional people who right now in the present day seek to do great harm to people who don't share their deluded views in the name of imaginary gods in hopes that the world can be restored to what it once was in the dark ages before superstition was overcome by science.

[JustAsk70]

So science is your religion - thats fine - but you are essentially as one-sided as they are by calling them delusional. Obviously you think you are right, just as you claim they think they are right. I think you discount everything they say because you see them as delusional simply because they are religous.

[lookingforananswer]

JustAsk70, Why do you believe everyone must have a religion?

[JustAsk70]

Its a matter of symantics - I am defining religion (per this conversation) as an absolute perspective from which others are judged and deemed "incorrect" in some way. Mir and others claim that religious people are "deluisonal" which would sugguest that they are, in his or her perspective, wrong and their "religion" or perspective therefore is the right one. And I am not saying Mir is wrong, just that Mir's perspective is limited.

[JustAsk70]

to clarify - (I wrote this quickly and forgot to proof) Mir and others claim that religious people are "deluisonal" which would sugguest that the religious are, from Mir's perspective - wrong, and Mir's "religion" or perspective is the right one.

[mjr256]

I love this argument because if the worst claim against science and reason is that it's just another religion, it pretty much proves my point that religion is a bad thing. So thanks for agreeing w/ me. 2nd, you seem to be defining all ideology and perspectives deemed to be "true" as relgions, so does that make this stance itself a religion? And are you a member of the 2 + 2 = 4 religion?

[JustAsk70]

I absolutely do agree with you in the sense that many religious people see the world from an absolutest perspective. That doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong. You, however, make them wrong by calling them delusional - and that comes simply from your limited perspective on religion. FYI I never said Science/Reason was bad or contrary to Religion - in fact I belive they all coexist very harmoniously.

[OregonDARRYL]

Science is NOT a religion. Science is the OPPOSITE of religion. Science looks and learns from all available provable fact. Religion closes off evolving knowledge in favor of ancient and questionable doctrines. Nice try though.

[JustAsk70]

I agree - science is not a religion. They each explain a very different truth. You are reducing science to say that it can explain everything - and everything it can't explain is essentially wrong - therefore you are using Science as your "religion".

[OregonDARRYL]

You still haven't told me which religion is the "right" one. Funny how most people think the one that they were "trained" with as a vulnerable child is "the one". Funny huh?

[wiskawind]

"Funny huh?" Not in the long term if your counting collateral damage. "Blind Faith," and "Thou shall not temp the Lord thy God;" have taken many sheeple over the cliff! To question, is a sin in its self, or so they say! (smile)

[JustAsk70]

The right one is all of them. They all say the same thing. Its people who say the others are wrong - Judaism, Christianity and Islam all come from the same place. Have you ever pondered what they all replaced? You never answered my challenge that its tribe, and ideology, that cause conflict - not religion per say.

[OregonDARRYL]

"Tribe and Idology"? Yes, and poverty and other motivators. But religion is the one that keeps on giving - death and destruction. Don't all those "religious" fools realize that their God made those "other" people too. Of course, God also makes a lot of animals that eat each other while still alive. Lots of blood, murder, rape, and disease in "God's" world, huh?

[OregonDARRYL]

"Outdated interpretation"? Is religion evolving? Good! There is no choice in light of scientific fact - oh, and the fact that there is zero evidence supporting ANY religious doctrines. Religion shall die, and man can then rejoice when the walls of hate (religion) are torn down.

[JustAsk70]

Wow - hate = religion? I am sorry your view of the idea of religion is so...jaded. I guess you feel that religion doesn't add positivly to peoples lives everyday? Do you really believe that religion causes the hate in the world - or could it be something more animalistic - more tribal - in people and religion/state/ideology/family­/ect. are the way people identify with tribe?

[OregonDARRYL]

It's this simple... religions can't get along with each other, that's why they war. That's why I can't get along with religion, and am at "war" with ALL of them. Again, "god" can be found without "religion". Religions are about control and not "goodness".

[JustAsk70]

I respectfully disagree. You are discounting the billions of people world wide that gain inner peace, moral compasas and a sense of community via their religions. I have lived in all over the world and never felt people controled by their religion. In some cases religion is used by bad people to control, but religion for most that practice it is liberating. Sorry you have had such a bad experience with it.

[OregonDARRYL]

I'm not talking about what religion may do for the individual seeking emotional comfort (which I find elsewhere), I'm talking about how religions don't accept each other and how mankind suffers for that. It's time to embrace truth and religion prevents that.

[JustAsk70]

I guess we should just agree to disagree. This will be my last post. People do use religion to justify conflicts, but they also use lots of other ideologies. I have seen lots of people very elevated through religion. And who gave you the right to decide what is truth? There is no evidence to disprove G-d as there is no evidence to disprove life in other galaxies. I hope that anti-religion thing works out for you. Peace. BTW - I am not a Christian of any flavor.

[mjr256]

Whether something is comforting says nothing about whether it is true. Some people find heroin comforting; that doesn't mean they should use it. Maybe you're the type of person who'd rather be comforted by falsehood than enlightened by real truth--if you are, I pity you--but I will not just sit back & let "comforters" like the religious teach generations of children comforting lies instead of the truth.

[JustAsk70]

Just a thought - its not "religions" that can't get along with each other - its people that can't get along with each other. People identify with lots of things including, but not limited to, a religion. EX - Israel is full of religious and very secular Jews, Palestinians are both Christian and Muslim. The primary reason they don't get along is about tribe, not religion.

[JustAsk70]

So I guess you are saying that we have proved everything there is to prove? We can explain everything scientifically? Can we disprove any religion? I guess by your defination, people will all be happy and war will end post religion?

[OregonDARRYL]

One can have faith and spirituality without joining a club. Gee, which club is right and which are wrong? How about me and "the force" communicate without others interpreting life for me? Thanks, but no. I'll think for myself. If you choose to be led by long dead writers who had wonderful imaginations, that's fine, but that doesn't make their irrational rants true.

[JustAsk70]

I completely agree with your first two statements. As for the rest, I will restate that I think you have an outdated view of religion and by stating you are at war with them - you are doing just what you claim you hate they do. That is - imposing your beliefs on others. Anyway - best of luck with your "war" if it brings you hapiness & peace.

[OregonDARRYL]

But I am a "Liberal", so my war against religion will not be violent. That's what separates humanists from old-fashioned "kill 'em for god" bunch of programmed robots in the Christian and Muslim worlds.

[OregonDARRYL]

Great question Davis. Allow me to answer it. Faith is only rational in that some claim it offers them comfort. But faith is the greatest divider of humanity for that same reason - the insatiable need for psychological comfort. I believe we will evolve out of this need - or we will destroy each other.

[Lucidtomr]

Nice Davis. Hmm, I wonder, do most Jewish people dislike the idea of Zionism? Or is it only the Rich people who like Zionism regardless of their religion. I think Zionism leads to more wars, more terrorism on innocent people done by governments, eventually leading to the New World Order which is 1 world 1 government no freedoms slaves to the rich corporate elite.

[JustAsk70]

I never like to be critical of someones opinion, but what does Zionism have to do with more wars, terrorism, ect? Zionism is about Jews building a homeland - period. Do you propose war and terrorism would end without Israel? I ask you what came before Israel? Sorry but yours is a very naive comment.

[Lucidtomr]

:sigh: The Balfour Declaration allowed Jewish people to use Terrorism on the Palestinians, the Irgun Terrorist which is main faction of the Israeli government. Not all jews are terrorist, as some like Davis are peaceful moral Jews, but endorsing Israel to use terrorism on countries that didn't attack like Syria or kidnapping innocent women and children of Lebenon. That breeds wars.

[JustAsk70]

That is incorrect - 1) Balfour established the idea of two states 2) Irgun was a very small milita that was ultimately defeated (militarly) by the Haganah which ultimately became the IDF 3) the thing that breeds wars is very hateful, uninformed, close-minded attitudes about other people - such as the attitude you express about Jews & Israel.

[yougottabFNkiddingme]

davis, you and patcondell have got to do a bit together.

peACEveryonEverywherEVERYday; even idiots like PatriotFuXtahoodle.

[SparklestheClown]

Good question!

[PeaceProfit]

We*Balance human needs with the planets health by abandoning the 4-F's of mans social agenda, Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fear, and adopt the 4-R's of the natural world, Respect, Regard, Relevance and Resolve . . . which all*ways creates cooperative, balanced, healthy, united and free relationships.

*Brave*

Yes it Tis a Brave New*World

And so we must be brave and not afraid

To Globalize NOT Religion Culture nor Government

But Humanity

One*World of Cooperatist creating Cooperatism

L.O.V.E.

[samwillsonbiz]

I'm Mormon and Supporting Ron Paul.

Regarding this question: I Think its valid, I don't believe its about war, as mormons we dont believe we have to fight to have the New jerusalem here. Christ will come and create it here, that's the rational. Read the 11th article of faith: We claim the privilege in worshiping almight God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

[sonicflyingmachine]

Theoretically, he would bring the troops home to protect his perceived holy land and to make sure that the temple gets built on schedule. Probable case scenario: not likely. Thanks Davis. You are a beacon of truth in an increasingly obscure world. Peace brother.

[PatriotFact]

As long as we have our 2nd Amendment Right you do not need to fear government tyranny. We are blessed in this country to have a lot of gun toting freedom lovers who would not hesitate to use the 2nd Amendment for its intended purpose.  PS This mean we still have our rights otherwise these guys would have already led the 2nd American Revolution.

[Fringe111]

That's interesting, our rights are being taken away from us one by one. i.e Habeus Courpus(sp).

[PatriotFact]

You obviously have not read the Constitution or the Military Commissions Act. 1. Habeas Corpus is not a Right it is a Privilege (thats in the Constitution, read it sometime) 2. Only non-citizen enemy combatants lost that privilege in the MCA, US Citizen enemy combatants still get Habeas Corpus (read the MCA).

[Fringe111]

So you're ok with Habeas Coupus being taken away? Just asking

[Fringe111]

The way things are going, the 2nd Amendment will be the only right we have left

[neocon1984]

Actually, the second amendment will be the first 'right' gone next major incident. Read the Neo-Con executive order from this summer where Bush gets full Authoritative powers once an emergency is declared. During Katrina, the 2nd Amendment disappeared and the police and Blackwater took weapons out of the hands of white and black citizens of New Orleans. This will happen nationally. Neo-Cons RULE You!!! Obey.

[Fringe111]

If you have cable and if you have Starz, look up and see a documentary called The Selling of Iraq. Privatization is what's running this war and the emloyee's are being paid thousands per month. Companies like CACI, Titan, Halibuton and more. 40% of the ground tropps over ther is now privatized. Try to see this show, you'll be appauled

[kebon]

Romney, Giuliani, Hillarobama... it'll be a nightmare if any of these gets to be president.

Pity Kucinich and Gravel stand no chance against Hillarobama... and pity Fleetwood ignores the Ron Paul Revolution but Ron Paul is not up to the socialist scriptures in the other holy books... so it really is a hopeless case, ain't it Davis?

[cosmicquestgirl]

I am an atheist... I respect the religions of others, however,.... I do not believe that "separation of church and state" is possible when someone of faith is holding a political office. Ideally, we want it not to seep in, but realistically, it does...it can't help, it's human nature...nice question!

[keyan99]

you are assuming: 1. that all of his beliefs allign directly with his church in entirety(they don't, he has said this) 2. that he wishes to subject his faith on the country(which he has said he obviously wouldn't, given that the president's priority is to uphold the constitution above all else, and that he understands the value of freedom from government in religion.) 3. that because jihad is waging a religious war, our defense is religious(its not).

[XGreyViews]

5*! :)

[wiskawind]

The last thing I want to see is another "I'm talking to God," jerk leading this country! Religion needs to be kept at home and in church. This time in our country is like the Salem witch hunt again; all the inquisition has to do is point a finger at a person and call them "terrorist" and suddenly that human becomes spawn of the devil, with no rights, no defense, doomed to endless torture and torment! It all makes me feel very sick! I would never vote for another bible thumper!

[KIDiotequeA]

Good question..

Christians believe that Israel, and more specifically Jerusalum must be occupied by gods chosen, the jews; as a prerequisite to Christ returning to Earth. Perhaps a better question would be to ask how this has effected past, present, and will continue to shape our foreign policy.

[peaceman08]

Great

[bwhahrhr]

good question

[neocon1984]

Mormons are so brilliant. Watch the south park explaining their religion. Joseph Smith was a master at the con-job, which us neo-cons try to emulate. Our neo-con movement will one day be transformed into a religion made possible by Fear-capitalists like Romney and Hatch. Reid is a great punching bag, but that is part of the mormon plan as well. All angles, like a good grift should be.

[aslipperyslope]

Call me jaded but I don't think that a really good person can make it to presidential level in the US. Our political arena is like a swamp & scum rises to the top. By the time a politician has clawed his way that far he's sold his soul to the highest bidder.

[wiskawind]

Well, I don't believe every one of them is rotten to the core, but you don't get to the top of American politics without knowing how to play dirty pool! Men corrupt easily! (grin)

[eligarf]

it ain't necessarily so.

[aslipperyslope]

Like I said jaded. I think some of the top guys have just been better at lying & hiding their tracks.

[eligarf]

the war on "terror" might as well be called the war on death.

great question, but you ask it to a farce of a politician.

[davisfleetwood]

ELI- True. This question begs other questions- of other politicians. The distance of "Mormanism" (for most) MAY help some see the danger in their own faith.

or maybe it is just one more video for the dustbin.

[eligarf]

any individual's real faith is not a problem. its the groupathetic mentality which is dangerous.

this being 2007 requires us to be clear in our thinking so that our actions will result in improvements in our societies.

good question you posted by the way.

ignore the idiot neocons with nothing on their channels. just bullshit.

[neocon1984]

Neo-cons love war; we feed off of it; we profit from it.  Whether it be a war on drugs or war on liberals or a war on poor children, us neo-cons want to find something and declare war on it. I can't wait until we institute the war on Iran, Venezuela, and the war on free thinking!

[JustAsk70]

And we Super Angry Liberals also love War!  We war on industry, the religious, people who smoke, America, Israel, and anyone who does not agree with us! YEA! Gosh who would have guessed we are all so much alike!

[OregonDARRYL]

Except "liberal" wars are on things that harm humanity, and those "other" wars are on humanity itself. That would again - be opposite! What church do you belong to? I'll see if they can improve the ventilation in there.

[OregonDARRYL]

Woah, there... what liberals are attacking America? Liberals attack those who hate real freedom, that includes some Americans.

[lazydawgxx]

The rest of the US will be as safe as Jackson or Salt Lake City; although I probably won't vote for him for other reasons.

[SEATTLEGRL1]

Strange timing for this topic from you.

It's interesting that two co-workers of mine were talking about the same issue today.

[PatriotFact]

We are at war with radical Muslims not regular Mormons. My biggest fear for America is that Atheists will start bowing things up and become radicals too.

[eligarf]

brainwashing works!

[neocon1984]

You bet it does. We condition you from pre-school on, especially in Sunday school.

[kebon]

What a lopsided argument. YOU are the radicals, PatriotFact. No one's fighting a war with Muslims except fundamentalist nincompoops.

Can't you realize that since the end of WWII you haven't stopped fighting wars? ...the wars you yourselves created, may I add... and by 'you' I mean your government and the people that elect it.

Wars on "enemies", "war on drugs", war on "dirty money", war on "terror" - even the cold-war arms' race was caused by the Soviets' fear of American imperialism.

[yougottabFNkiddingme]

~lol~ nincompoops is right! fundamentaLy flawed nincompoops! must be an error in the genes of a few humans masquerading as leaders on planet earth. the sad thing is how many people fall for their ploys.

war on whatevereallyisnT! keeps the tax dollars pooring in.

[aslipperyslope]

Uh, yeah. I'm a Vietnam vet with 11 years in, so it may sound odd, but if you look back to engangments, French & Indian war etc you'll see that this peace lovin' country of mine has averaged some sort of military engagement about every 4 years. Yep; it's a good thing god is on our side:)

[neocon1984]

Your God is Mars, the god of war, or Satan. War-mongering ex-military are either satanists or worship the God of War. Thank you for keeping the Neo-Con-Job alive.

[wakeboard77]

Don't worry Patriot.....We don't want to be associated with Baptists. We will leave those radical ideas for your preacher to hand out at Sunday service.

[dawgfacedgremlin]

First to say you suck, but its your right to and I'm no hatesprayin spammer, just a true real american!

[eligarf]

stick your guitar up your ass and you might find your brain.

[davisfleetwood]

hey ELI- good to hear from you..... dawgface has got Jesus, you can't get him riled up.....

[eligarf]

i noticed that.

people have a right to believe whatever they want. too bad they donT use their whole head.

[dawgfacedgremlin]

I would, but I might rupture a davisfleetwood.

[eligarf]

your demented sense of humor could be funny with the right delivery. try again?