MSS - 2 October 2011 - Part 1 - venomfangx, raycomfort and the question of race

[Domzdream]

Regardign the not sharing thoughts on the website- it just shows you how fuck-tarded religion makes people. I mean, wouldnt you WANT to learn new stuff? Wouldnt you WANT to further your intellect. See thinking is prohibited in christianity or any other religions. Lets say theism for clarity.

Why would people want to be more intelligent?? And to think people find this attractive in religion. It makes me realise just how unevolved the religious truely are. Broken genes.

[Domzdream]

HAHAHA. We joos want our coontry back. So true. I hate racists.

[Eventsbyresonance]

Re the portion of the show about Ray Comfort's anti-abortion video. I am in the minority being both an atheist and "pro-life". I would love to see a Magic Sandwich show episode that discussed the morality of abortion from a rational secular humanist perspective. It's sad and depressing that idiots like Ray Comfort are the face of pro-life. I would like the opportunity to have a rational discussion on the matter without appeal to theistic arguments.

[FrostbittenWolf]

@Eventsbyresonance

Define "Pro-Life." Ray Comfort obviously isn't pro-life, but what is your stance?

[WhereIsReligion]

HOLY SHIT THE FUCKING RAPTOR WAS SLEEPING!!!

[DIFowner]

Has anyone considered the ramifications of Impalement?

[myjizzureye]

45:10 What fucking drugs is that cunt on, did anybody understand a dam thing he said?

[kyebean]

Rational beliefs are formed with honest investigation from a neutral position with no prior bias. When you have a belief formed that way, it's not hard at all, and in fact can be quite exhilarating to uncover new evidence or arguments that changes your belief. (CONTINUED BELOW)

[kyebean]

Faith is an entirely different matter, in fact I don't think faith even counts as a belief in the same way a rational belief does. People don't have faith in something because they think it's true, they have faith because they WANT it to be true, and thus demonstrating it to be false doesn't in the slightest affect what motivates the belief in the first place.

[kyebean]

guys... why are like 90% of the people that call into this show from eastern Europe or Russia? Really fucking random and weird.

[squirreljester2]

Honestly, I'm happy to change my position on a topic that I've proven wrong in, and I would give great respect to someone that I've been able to change their position on a topic.

[emancoy]

I think after VFX watched the exorcism of Emily Rose, he was actually possessed for real and we all saw it in Youtube under our noses.

LOL!

[emancoy]

Theists flowchat

1. Theists are always right

2. if Theists are wrong, refer to rule number 1.

That is why they never apologize.

[bigfatbaataed]

Have you ever told a lot…

No!!! That's why I can't be a used car salesman, a politician or a preacher…

[christo930]

@TheRationalizer Do you understand Canadian accounting laws? If not, you shouldn't be making assertions.

An open ended video that was put up for public viewing does not constitute a contract between any particular viewer and the OP. Furthermore, nobody has been able to produce a donor who feels ripped off. I don't like VFX and I don't like defending him, but I don't see how he did anything wrong except the possibility of false advertising. To the best of our knowledge, he hasn't been charged

[TheRationalizer]

@christo930

It's not an issue of accountancy, it's an issue of gaining money through deception. He proposed an agreement under which people could send him money, he received money, then he tried to change the terms without consulting ALL affected parties.

>not a contract

It *WAS* a contract. He proposed something, people agreed by sending money.

[christo930]

@TheRationalizer I'm sorry, a video set to public viewing can not be construed as a contract. I watched the video, does that mean I am now a party to this contract? Furthermore, a contract is only valid if you sign it, you can't sign a youtube video. You really don't get it. I am against what he did and think it was slimy, but it wasn't a crime. Are you accusing the Canadian law enforcement of failing to act? It's not like they weren't contacted.

[TheRationalizer]

@christo930

You are wrong. A published video in which someone makes an offer and then receives money on those terms *IS* a legal contract.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930 "a video set to public viewing can not be construed as a contract".

WRONG.

Oral contracts rarely have video evidence to prove the nature of the contract, yet oral contracts are often enforced based on less evidence (such as the credibility of the parties, subsequent communications records, etc). The fact that an oral contract is videotaped does not void invalidate it. It REINFORCES it as evidence of the terms.

Oral contracts generally only need to be specific and unambiguous.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930

If your meaning is that there is no contract because the other parties were not in his presence or had nothing to gain from the arrangement, that is wrong too. There only has to be "consideration" - essentially a legitimate reason to enter the arrangement. The donors effectively activated the proposed contract by taking Shawn up on his offer: his continued YT "ministry" in exchange for their financial support.

[TheRationalizer]

@christo930

>Furthermore, nobody has been able to produce a donor who feels ripped off

It was a 3 party agreement. VFX, the donors, and the charity. All THREE have to agree to change the terms. The charity ALSO has to agree that VFX can keep the money he had already collected on their behalf.

[christo930]

@TheRationalizer Can you demonstrate that there was an agreement between VFX and SKH?

[TheRationalizer]

@christo930

In his video VFX asked for money and said that anything over $500 per month would be donated to SKH. He collected more than $500 in the first month, therefore everything over $500 was collected on behalf of SKH and rightfully belongs to them.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930

1. You can't speak for all the 300+ donors, many of who Shawn first admitted to no being able to contact (he changed his story later).

2. VFX's promise explicitly stipulated that donations he received in excess of $500 PER MONTH would be redirected to the charity.

3. What law states that verbal contracts stated in internet-posted videos are unenforcible? His own province recognizes verbal contracts, as do most jurisdictions. The terms just have to be clear, as they initially were.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo

1. VFX admitted that he collected about $5K, not $4K.

2. He stated no yearly basis requirement. He specified monthly income. He also admitted to receiving thousands in the FIRST month.

3. Shawn admitted in his Woodrow interview that he could NOT contact ALL the donors. His own donor count exceeded 300 people when he stopped posting it on his e-beg video. Only AFTER that video was removed did he claim that he got EVERYONE's permission to keep all the money for himself. Not believable.

[christo930]

@themsfightinwoids Do you understand the accounting rules in Canada? In the US the GAAP would allow you to do this yearly and not monthly or quarterly. We also don't know how many people specifically made donations to cover a certain number of months. The legal standard in the US and Canada is the presumption of innocence and right now, nobody can overcome that presumption because we don't have access to all or even some of the evidence.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930

VFX make a verbal contract under very specific terms. He said NOTHING about waiting a year to see if his donation total was over $6000 before he would donate. Starting at 8:52 of v=PZY-S2oMywU he says " As soon as I hit 500, ok, then ANYTHING above and beyond that I'm gonna put towards Sick Kid's Hospital... every month that I earn over 500.."

Watch that videos. They're full of promises soon broken, including discloser of his total donations and number of donors.

VFX = asshole.

[christo930]

@themsfightinwoids I agree that he's an asshole and I disagree with everything he does and still does today. He had no contract with SKH (to the best of my knowledge) and a one sided video can not be construed as a contract because nobody can sign it. There is no such thing as a contract where only 1 side signs (in this case it would be VFX). Since I didn't donate, I don't know what kind of disclaimer or anything he had set up for the donation. He wasn't prosecuted, so he prob didn't brk the law

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930 "There is no such thing as a contract where only 1 side signs (in this case it would be VFX)."

What?? Shawn didn't "sign" either. Oral contracts are enforcible WITHOUT signatures. You know that.

And show me where any contract law says the other party has to be there when the oral offer is made. Whether the offer arrives by video or by registered mail, it is a contract, and is binding when the receiving party agrees to it by doing as stipulated.

[christo930]

@christo930 As for a legal contract, he didn't have one unless you construe a public YT video as enforceable as a contract and I really couldn't see that happening. Then there is the international nature of this. Most of his donors weren't from Canada. The only thing he might be guilty of is false advertisement.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930

You argue that verbal contracts stated on YT are not enforcible, and at worst constitute false advertizing. Withholding funds promised to be redirected a third party has nothing to do with failing to provide an advertized service or product. Shawn committed EMBEZZLEMENT, as an unauthorized self-appointed trustee for SKH.

Verbal contarcts ARE enforcible in most places, including VFX's (Ontario), given certain basic requirements & reasonable interpretation of the terms stated.

[christo930]

@themsfightinwoids In order to charge him with embezzlement, SKH would have had to have entrusted him to hold the money. To the best of our knowledge, SKH had no idea of this and was not working with Sean to raise funds. Embezzlement is stealing or misusing funds/items that have you have been trusted to manage/hold or whatever, trust being the qualifier. He had no contract with any donor or SKH, a YT video sent to thousands of people can not be construed to be a contract.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo

Embezzlement is theft of property entrusted 2 u. None of the definitions I've seen require that you be entrusted by the recipient instead of the donor. Being entrusted is all that matters. There are many examples of unpaid volunteers charged with embezzlement from charities.

Donation scammers have been charged with aggravated theft, theft by deception, fraud, etc. Regardlless of varying jurisdictional definitions, these are ALL kinds of THEFT. Shawn undeniably STOLE from dying kids.

[christo930]

@themsfightinwoids But he had no contract with the donors either. An ad or solicitation doesn't count as a contract. The only places there could have been a contract was with SKH or at the donation sight (I agree that I am donating money to vfx and this much will go to skh...) and (to the best of my knowledge) no such contracts were ever used. You also have to remember that this is Canadian law, not US law. He certainly didn't steal from dying kids, that is hyperbole.

[themsfightinwoids]

"He had no contract with any donor"

WRONG. He video-taped his own verbal contract. The other party does not have to be there at the time. He stated the terms of an agreement whereby he would collect large amount of money . That WAS a legal contract, and he breached it by stealing from the proceeds.

[christo930]

@themsfightinwoids You are wrong. A contract has to be signed by both parties and nobody signed the video. It's not a legal contract and like I said a million times here, where is the prosecution? Are you saying that the Canadian law enforcement are inept?

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930 Like the vast majority of jurisdictions, Ontario DOES recognize verbal contracts. I think you know that. Do you need quotations?

As to prosecution, if you were SKH administration, would you spend thousands on a prosecution in order to collect $4500, particularly when you would then risk having the public associate your charity with a scam, and when the scattered evidence is all in the defendant's obscured and deleted video's? It's a no-brainer that they had to ignore the bastard.

[TheRationalizer]

@christo930

ALL verbal contracts are enforceable as long as you can prove the terms, i.e. with witnesses to the agreement *OR* if the person was dumb enough to record it on video and upload it for the whole world to see.

[Xgya2000]

@CIAtheist

Unless you do not think any group is superior to the others, any time you claim a group is "different", you're biased against it. Especially if your only traits to look out for are physical (like hair/skin color - best example is Tiger Woods, with basically 3 racial ancestries, but still qualified as a "black golfer")

She quotemined a few studies. This has already been pointed out by users much more knowledgeable than I am (evogenvideos has a series about it)

[B0rn0nly0nce]

I don't understand why people believe they need to send money to Shawn to have the donation eventually arrive at a charity. Why use Shawn as a third party when a person can send money directly to the charity itself? Don't people see the shortest and most direct route is the best way, especially in this case?

[themsfightinwoids]

@B0rn0nly0nce

In early April 2009 Shawn asked for donations so he could evangelize instead of work his regular job (cashier). He used Sick Kids Hospital as BAIT to encourage more donations, by promising to divert "anything over $500 per month" to the hospital (a binding verbal contract). When ~$5000 poured in within weeks, he got greedy and made excuses to pocket (ie, steal) the money for himself.

He has yet to pay-up or express any remorse for embezzling $4500 in funding from dying children.

[christo930]

@B0rn0nly0nce That's because the people were donating to Sean, not skh. If they wanted to donate to SKH, they would have done so directly.

[themsfightinwoids]

@christo930 "If they wanted to donate to SKH, they would have done so directly.

Shawn promised to redirect anything over $500/m to encourage more donations, and many of the 300+ doners (by his own count) would have donated only because they had the reassurance that Shawn was only getting a fixed amount. Are you trying to say that NONE of the 300+ donors wanted ANY of the donations to go to the Charity, REGARDLESS of how much Shawn collected?? What is the basis for that illogical assumption?

[MsOneiroi77]

shawn asking for donations again, his parents are wealthy just look at the size of his house in the older videos its a mansion what cheek the greedy ass hole with a silver spoon in his mouth.

[TAz69x]

I have nothing against C0nc0rdance; but I can't fucking STAND hearing him talk, his inflections, and manner of speaking and droning on for so much of the show.

Personal taste and dislike of his slow pace of talking and H-emphasis like he's checking his breath constantly on my part I guess.

[TheRationalizer]

@TAz69x

I find him very interesting.

[wwickeddogg]

@CIAtheist Why would anyone need proof that "racial differences" don't exist when we all know that race doesn't exist?

Of course there are differences among different people and people who are more closely related share more traits, but overall we are all related and share all of our ancestors 1000 years back or so.

[wwickeddogg]

PCS is a scumbag and anyone who sends him money is stupid.

[TheRationalizer]

@CIAtheist

A woman who's parents are Chinese and African, marries a man who's parent's are Irish and Mexican.

"Realistically", what race is their child?

[nesteph]

@TheRationalizer lets see Chinegro bred with Irixican, well lets see . I say Polynesian.

[yuppysoul]

@TheRationalizer

who cares

[TheRationalizer]

@yuppysoul

Tadaaaaa :-)

[yuppysoul]

@TheRationalizer

lol. Actually, I think the best point was the when you talked about, what good exactly does it do you to go on about proving races exist. If they exist ... err ..ok, so what?

I find it bizarre the amount of people here talking about "differences" as if no one thinks there's differences between people. EVERYONE has differences and everyone knows that. This is not an argument for "race realism".

[TheRationalizer]

@yuppysoul

Well, if I were to be interviewing people for a job and were presented with HeyRuka and Neil DeGrasse Tyson as the two applicants, I would *certainly* be awarding the job position on individual merits :)

[Xgya2000]

@CIAtheist

race realism IS bigotry. Race realism = real racism.

Their views have no scientific basis, but most claim to have science on their side.

[SuperDESTROYER71]

Great video!

[stiimuli]

nuclear wessels!

[TheLuckySaGe]

@christo930 " I sincerely doubt that a YT video would have been admissible in a court and binding him to pay the money" - I admire your sincerity and honesty in admitting your ignorance of the law.

[christo930]

@TheLuckySaGe I assume you are being sarcastic, but in reality that is exactly what i did (admit that I don't fully understand such complex international laws). But I am pretty sure that a youtube video for private viewing is an ad and not a contract.

[christo930]

@christo930 Er.. That should say public viewing, not private... Sorry about that.

[TheLuckySaGe]

@christo930 Doesn't matter if its a youtube video. It is the content of the youtube video that is important. VFX did initiate a verbal binding contract to which he broke.  Life has a lot of grey areas, but on this issue it is black and white.

[TekLok]

total recall lol

[viicISrotcib]

Someone should drop Ray Confort from a hill.

[XenovannHellwolf]

The Hitler question is designed to force you to think emotionally therefore irrationally. If you answer in a way that changes the past your likely erasing those that live in the present out of existence.. Also the present might be 100xs worse without that huge injustice for people to reflect on in the history books. Instead of thinking of a way to get around killing Hitler like raising him yourself, think about the possible negative repercussions from your own interference.

[chinamanspeakenlis]

rationalizer...rocks...!! :)

[christo930]

Most of the race-realists are indeed racist, but there is one area I agree with them on, and that is the fact that diversity leads to violence and tension. If we look around the world to the most violent places, you will find diversity in race, religion, language or tribalism. I don't believe in desegregation where people are forced (especially school kids) to be desegregated. The bussed kids couldn't do after school activities or tutoring or anything because of the school bus schedule.

[christo930]

@christo930 I think it also sent a subtle message to the black kids that they could only succeed if they went to the white school in the white neighborhood and it really hurts their self-esteem. I have a friend who's black who went to a desegregated school and now he looks down on black people. I try to explain that it was a class issue and that middle class blacks don't act bad, but it's hard. It's also unfair to their neighbors. Instead, they should have better schools in the minority areas.

[adafuns]

@christo930 Correlation does not equal causation man. Places in this country (assuming your from the states as I am) which have racial diversity usually also have bad economic and educational imbalances as well as a high population. It could be any one of these things or maybe a combination. We don't know till we get good data on the this whole topic.

[christo930]

@adafuns But a great deal of the time that is why they are fighting and they admit. Different sects of the same religion or different religions all killing each other in the name of their god. One tribe or nation that think they are better than the other tribe or nation etc. Look at Ireland in the past or the Shiites vs Sunnis in the middle east.

[LJonathan]

32:25 The word "sorry" seems to be a word in dprjones vocabulary though :)

[themsfightinwoids]

Shawn admits to getting $5000 in a pm -- see 2:28 of v=JsZDttRuWb8.

So he should have donated $4500 and kept $500.

Instead he KEPT ~$4500 and donated ~$500.

And his excuse was that donating to SKH would give away his location and thus endanger him.

No joke.

[Pichounator]

Enjoyable discussion; hope you get some southern comfort with Comfort on the next show.

[QueenToBishop]

You must start to put this stuff on Itunes again, guys! Thumb it!

[holdontoyourwig]

Thick stupid people send money to Thunderf00t but i bet DPR wont blast him. Greedy twats all.

[SuperSparkyMark1]

@holdontoyourwig - Thunderf00t doesn't steal money or deceive people into giving it to him by taking it on false pretences. That's the big difference.

[holdontoyourwig]

@SuperSparkyMark1 In his latest video he doesnt say where or what he is doing with the money. Charity or porn mags. TF just wants money for making vids. He thinks he deserves money. As DPR said....."Youtube is free"

[Sinnessa]

@holdontoyourwig Thunderf00t isn't lying to his fans and scamming money out of them. He isn't using appeals to sick children to cream more money from good-intentioned folk who would, and did (in large numbers), donate expecting their money to go to a good cause.

Why are you not understanding the essential difference here?

[SuperSparkyMark1]

Ray Comfort is so full of shit, it's unbelievable.

[AtheismInfo]

huh- my video wasn't visible in the recording even though it was visible in the skype call. how highly disappointing.

[Sinnessa]

That dinosaur is so adorable.

[Turandot29]

@Sinnessa, and was that an actual glimpse of the real cOncOrdance for a few seconds there when he was showing that book about Islam?

[MunkyDrag0n]

Dprjones is a very patient man. He refrains from interrupting and going on rants during debates. However, when he actually takes the time to speak, he absolutely castrates the bigots by exposing their sub-human ideas and behavior.

[TheLuckySaGe]

I am studying religions of the west at college. My professor is a liberal christian (who talks like he is an atheist btw) and says that Germany was one of the most christian european countries during world war II. Germany was a christian nation. At lot of the anti-semitism arose from the idea that it was the jews who killed Jesus. Anyways, there is a lot more to it but I just don't have the time to discuss it all in these comments. =)

[firefly4f4]

For the record, I can find no credible source (ie, non-Christian/Jewish promoting source) that has Hitler denouncing the 10 commandments. What I can find is Adolf HOFFMANN creating such a document. Perhaps it's an issue of them confusing the two.

[TheRationalizer]

@firefly4f4

I think Hitler said something about Christianity being crap, and Ray has extrapolated that.

[TheLuckySaGe]

In the future when a person is caught in a lie people will say "hey, you pulled a christian".

[TheLuckySaGe]

I commentated on VFX latest asking for donation video and was not rude or used profanity at all. I gently criticized his video and all my comments were subsequently removed and I was blocked. I noticed too that everyone else's comments who even hinted at maybe criticizing VFX video were removed as well. I really hope VFX gets cancer and dies painfully (preferably soon). What a scum-bag.

[Mithcoriel]

@TheLuckySaGe He blocked me too, earlier, even though I always respectfully disagreed.

[TekLok]

@Mithcoriel Its because it potentially damages his fantasy world.

[toppledgod]

Everyone has a great microphone, except atheismo.

[BusinessEdgeRadio]

Wow, VFX is really scummy ! I really think that the worst of people can be found calling themselves Christian, its to the point that now whenever I meet a vocal one I think that they are stupid or a scam artist right away without wanting to give them more then a minute of time. Public Muslims are far more ethical when it comes to money but just as scummy in terms of twisting facts about science.

[tommy605]

A uni-racial society? Isn't that pretty much any prison society/population, specially in North America? And how is that working out? Should be perfect in there. It's a controlled environment, 99% of them are religious of some sort, so it should be the perfect sets of society. Wonder how it would work out if it wasn't as controlled of an environment?

[Domzdream]

Or is that aurally.

[Domzdream]

hahaha.

The koran is an orally transmitted disease.

[Domzdream]

It's scary how The Rationalizer looks like my brother.

[Domzdream]

-ridiculous nonsense. They end up looking really bad, and rightly so.

If you ever DO get the guy to come on the show, savour it! The victory will be sooo sweet.

[Domzdream]

Ray's too much of a pussy flapper to come on your show, Dpr.

If he's been paying attention to your show's style, he'll realise that you and your friends will not let go of certain questions that are inevitable going to pester him. And that's one of the main things I like about your show. You keep the chrissies sweating. And the muzzies. You get them cornered, they end up looking like sado massochists. And ultimately they end up looking like grown up children, answering the most ridiculous-

[evo2029]

Whos venomfagx

[BusinessEdgeRadio]

Getting ready to view this now but I just wanted to thank you for uploading and I also wanted to request more of the Ratinaliser, if you can set up and uninterrupted dialog between him and a Muslim it would be awesome!

[Domzdream]

HAHAHA! Loved the beginning.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

Forget the belt buckles, forget the fact Hitler was a devout catholic. Show them this: The Nazi Vatican Concordance. Its a document they cannot deny, but then you get the different sects that say catholicism is not christianity. I haven't met a christian yet that didn't suffer from cognitive dissonance.

[Fulcrum26]

Lol, loved the beginning

[theDracoIX]

How can one believe in evolution and deny races? Talk about cognitive dissonance.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

@theDracoIX Different races are not different species.

[volound]

@bamboo4tameshigiri i dont think he is implying that they are.

the same mechanism that causes diversity of race also causes diversity of species/life.

[vg33k]

@theDracoIX

I seriously hope that you are being sarcastic.

[whitefox998]

@theDracoIX It's not an issue of denying race, it's just that that taxonomic rank doesn't apply to our species.

[TekLok]

@theDracoIX Race was never clearly defined. Some people base it on your nationality, some base it on your cultural lifestyle, some base it purely on skin color. Especially since the human race has become globally situated and mixed.

[rwjt2]

DPR it could take more than 5 minutes to live down the Grayling snooze.

cheers guys

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

PCS blocks anyone who lets his viewers know the truth about what happened in the past.

[rwjt2]

DPR it could take more than 5 minutes to live down the Grayling snooze.

cheers guys

[gskowal]

lol, were they making fun of dpr in the beginning?

[Hemmersfield1]

Awesome!