Arnold Schoenberg - Suite for Piano Op. 25 - Part I

[vampiremessiah51]

I love how everyone calls this atonal. It was written with 12-tone serialism thus providing it with a seperate tonality. If you want to hear REAL atonality go listen to Pierrot Lunaire der Mondfleck. You can hear a massive difference between the two styles.

[Rickriquinho]

This is nothing!

[philateliceun]

For people who think this is just some random shit, mister Schoenberg knew every rule, everything there is to know about musical composition. The guy could write very 'pleasent' chamber music but he decided to use his knowledge of the rules to break them. I am reading his book now and that guy knows every rule in the book and he doesn't talk at all about 12 tone music, its all about Beethoven, Schoenberg, Bach, Wagner etc.

[philateliceun]

@philateliceun not schoenberg, I mean schubert lol

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun Knowing every rule in the book and every compositional technique does not mean someone is able to create great "pleasant-"sounding music. It just means you know the rules and techniques.

I defy anyone to listen to Schoenberg's tonal works and tell me that he is anything more than a mediocrity in that medium. The technique is there, but the ability to write anything memorable isn't. I wonder if he came up with his alternate methods because he recognized his weaknesses.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun Yeah, that was a decent Mahlerian piece, certainly better than the lame ones I'm thinking about, like either Chamber Symphony or the wretched Suite in G major, which just goes to prove he was a better composer earlier in his career but lost the ability to write good melodies since he didn't practice it.

And please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Knowledge of techniques and rules alone do not a great composer make; it's a hollow argument.

[philateliceun]

@MaestroTJS Its not, if you just write and don't know what you are doing you are purely relying on talent, there is no art to it you are just doing something and hoping something goods comes out. Yeah you can maybe write some memorable melodies but what the hell, this isn't pop music, this is classical, this isn't about good melodies, this is about art and art is far more then a good melody. And how the fuck can you say the Chamber Symphony is lame? Do you compare his music to Bach or something?

[philateliceun]

@MaestroTJS Clearly you don't know what you are talking about cause any composer or any student with a grain of knowledge on the subject of composing wouldn't dare to talk about mediocrity considerering one of the greats. When you say stuff like "lost the ability to write good melodies " you sound like a lady gaga fan with a superiority complex. Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun When you move beyond your Music Appreciation 101 textbook, you'll realize that musicians and composers are pretty harsh critics--if you don't believe me, go find what people like Wagner, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Mozart, Stravinsky, Mahler, Ives, Boulez, and Schoenberg had to say about others. But to be clear, I said as a TONAL composer he was a mediocrity. His misguided "system" deserves some kind of credit, but I think he was superseded by Berg and Webern anyway.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun And once again, you miss the point. I am not saying "relying on talent alone," I am saying knowing rules and techniques does not guarantee one can write in the style of whomever, much less write WELL in that style. There is nothing stylistically in Schoenberg's music that suggests he could write like Mozart or Bach or Beethoven (unlike, say, Stravinsky). Like Mahler or Wagner, perhaps. And when I say he lost the ability to write good melodies, you must not be old enough to...

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun ...understand that unless you keep practicing at something, you will eventually lose the ability. He ceased writing anything approaching a normal melody (if he ever HAD that talent to begin with) and when he tried again late in life, it just didn't work (see the Suite in G Major).

Not all composers had equal abilities, no matter how hard they tried. Beethoven wanted to be like Mozart but he wasn't well-suited to vocal/dramatic writing; Liszt wasn't as poetic as Chopin, etc. So...

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun ...I'm sorry, but no, I just don't buy the argument that Schoenberg could have written like that but didn't. Rather, I believe he lacked the ability to add something new in that vein and developed a new system to suit his purposes.

Normally, I'd applaud such an effort, but the end result (the 12-tone system) is so anti-musical and anti-traditional (despite his claims to the contrary), I can only say it was a huge effort and interesting attempt, but it's less music than math.

[philateliceun]

@MaestroTJS Any respectable musician would never say that any great composer was mediocre. Now you are just being a condescending asshole who thinks he knows all because he read two or three books about the subject. You instantly lose all your credibility if you go bash a great composer like that, you are no Mozart or Beethoven, you don't know what you are talking about, especially since you call his 12 tone system more math then music. Just accept it, you don't know what you are talking about.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun Wow, your arguments are so articulate. The best you can come up with is "you don't know what you're talking about." How immature and feeble-minded are you?

The 12-tone system is anti-musical because it supplants centuries-long development of harmony and voice-leading with a new harmonic "language" that doesn't give a crap about natural harmonics and how the brain/ear listen to music. He only "emancipated dissonance" in his and his followers' minds.

[vampiremessiah51]

@MaestroTJS Actually it's not anti musical at all since music can be defined as organized sound over time with artistic intent. It's not even atonal because the 12 tone system forms it's own tonality that is separate. In fact your entire argument hinges on western tonality being the only form of music the human mind can comprehend. In reality there different tonal systems all over the world many of which your ear isn't trained to appreciate. Does that make them wrong? this is no different.

[MaestroTJS]

@vampiremessiah51 If you can define music as anything you want it to be, then sure.

And you can tell the "tonality" of one 12-tone piece from another after the first few measures? Really?

It's anti-musical in the sense that it requires you to go through 11 other notes before you can return to the starting one and requires the same for all its transformations. That's not composing with or for the ear--it's composing by and for the mind.

[vampiremessiah51]

@MaestroTJS I'm a music ed major and that is indeed the most common definition of music I see. It's subjective but it's the standard definition. No I can't tell the tonality of the piece, i'm not sure you're using tonality right either. You mean tell the nature of the row? Can you tell what key a piece is by ear? I certainly can't, I think only those with perfect pitch can.

Also you're making the assumption that anything that isn't beautiful to the ear is anti musical.

[MaestroTJS]

@vampiremessiah51 No, what I'm saying is, I consider writing music according to some arbitrary matrix you've devised anti-musical. In the hands of a good composer, the chord choices in non-"beautiful" music can still make some sense, as they might be chosen for sound/colour, whatever. Schoenberg's system seems to have mathematical considerations and intentional avoidance, not sound/colour/inspiration, as its primary concerns.

[tehXnotlocity]

@MaestroTJS Do you realize that Schoenberg never saw nor used a matrix? The 12 tone matrix was created by theorists well after his time in order to study his music. Yes, he used tone rows, but he didn't use them solely based on math and certainly didn't choose them arbitrarily. Schoenberg himself actually said that each row he wrote was meant to create melody and theme. I can hear that in his music, but I can't hear that in many of the mediocre 12 tone composers that have followed.

[MaestroTJS]

@tehXnotlocity I mean the system itself is arbitrary in the sense that he created it as a solution to avoiding tonality (and, as an aside, I fail to understand why the implication of tonality is such a thing to be avoided). I can see choosing notes that will work for melody and theme in the original row, but to realize at that time that they will work well in all its transformations?...That seems hard to believe.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun As I said, there is nothing about being a musician/composer that compels me to recognize genius in others just because there is SOME consensus on it. I can recognize certain aspects of his craft as having been well-done but that doesn't mean I have to go further than that.

I will also state again that my main point was to refute your contention that he could have written great "pleasant-sounding" music. He tried, wasn't successful, and came up with his own alternative.

[MaestroTJS]

@philateliceun And clearly you need to read what some composers and musicians said about each other. They were far more vicious than I'm being...and that includes Schoenberg.

[philateliceun]

@MaestroTJS "(the 12-tone system) is so anti-musical" by this alone you lost all your credibility if you might have some to begin with. You should spend a night thinking about what exactly music is. Just think about it.

[roflwaffle100]

this piece is like an interesting man stuttering, you are interested in what he has to say but presentation is terrible

and yes I realize that schoenburg was doing this intentionally, trying to be deep by saying "what if we were told THIS was good music from the time we were born, would we think it good and not sloppy? does society condition our tastes?"

[Lorefoxie]

@roflwaffle100 I am a distant relative of Schoenberg and I was raised from birth being told this was good music. I think it's amazing, however by the same right, other members of my family think it's weird. Society conditions our tastes, but it's only half the equation. Personal difference makes for a massive factor in determining what society conditions.

[RockYourInnerSenses]

It's impossible to appreciate this music without understanding twelve-tone music...

[AA19752012]

@RockYourInnerSenses

How can you understand it without listening. How can you listen without a certain degree of appreciation?

[RockYourInnerSenses]

@AA19752012 You can't understand it without listening. But it's nearly impossible to understand simply through listening. And it's hard to appreciate without understanding it. Personally before I understood it I thought someone just put a microphone inside a piano and pushed it down the stairs to see what it would sounds like :L

I don't think that's appreciation :L

[AA19752012]

@RockYourInnerSenses

I had already heard alot of atonal/dissonant music before I heard Shonberg so it didn't sound that bad to me. However it makes a huge difference whose playing it due to the performers understanding of it.

They must hear the melody.

[JacobAPeck]

@RockYourInnerSenses do not the inner sense sense beyond an understanding?

[Opikuum]

no matter how much effort the composer had to make, this sounds awful...

[Zhyhm]

@Opikuum same thing goes for artists that make masterpieces by spraying paints. I don't say you're wrong, just that different people think differently =)

[abejasyyo]

loooove love this!

[Phelpsy95]

this is 12 tone music isn't it? it has a 12 tone row that changes because it gets inverted and transposed up or down but always refers back to the original row

[cedricrlongreen]

If you played a bunch of random notes on the piano...I bet you would never be able to play it again. And if you wrote a bunch of random notes on a manuscript, I bet no one would buy it. I may be a fan of classical, romantic and tonal music but I'm smart enough to know that atonal composers put a lot of thought into writing their music especially after I took music history 124C and this is coming from someone who absolutely hated 20th century music before.

[sunyate]

personally, i think it sounds like a cat running over the keys.. which could also be a form of genius.

[Anononononononymous]

This sounds like he's just slapping his cock randomly upon the keys.

[fbager]

Am I the only person to love this music? Wonderful. You're missing something. And Glenn Gould is a legend. I don't think Schoenberg wrote this music just so it could be "studied". It's very beautiful, albeit in a more abstract way, but beautiful definitely.

[Shadowlandsdropout]

@fbager wow seriously? hmm, music is music I guess...

[cedricrlongreen]

@fbager To be honest I used to hate 20th century and atonal music but I took a music history class about the 20th century and grew more appreciation for it and realized it wasn't randomness and that it's actually much harder to compose atonal music because of the lack of tonal center. It may not be my personal preference but I don't bash it anymore.

[Zhyhm]

@cedricrlongreen lol same here :D

[Shadowlandsdropout]

I actually don't like this music at all but I have to study it for my Music GCSE..

[fliggy1756]

@Shadowlandsdropout yeah same, not fun

[Malibuthunder]

@Shadowlandsdropout that's why i am here... they make us study this crap but imagine what bad marks we'd get if we submitted this as our composition!

[LeKayFace]

@Malibuthunder

actually, as horrible as it sounds, you would get probably full marks if you composed something like this because it's pretty much all mathematical. you choose your notes, don't have to worry about melody, and as long as the dynamics and tempo or whatever go with the title you're pretty much guaranteed top to full marks :]

[XpEAnUTBuTtERsUckSX]

@Shadowlandsdropout same dude, listen to micro tonal stuff as well.

[Guitareben]

@Shadowlandsdropout Woah seriously this music is lovely :D. Ironically I DIDN'T do music GCSE last year XD. haha

[Ceimbellina]

I am doing a project on this guy. xD

[KyougetsuYoru]

y pensar q el proposito de este metodo (dodecafonia) es la "comprensión"

...

no entiendo nada -__- ...

[shyboy04]

to my theory people: I HATE TONE ROWS. but it's mightly handy if you want to write atonal music.

[gibrandogg]

no, its a pizza, asshole

[Macaca111]

this is music?

[mahler151]

Yes, contrary to what you will say sounds like random notes being played by a five-year-old, this is music, perhaps at its most complex.

[Macaca111]

it may be complex, but it's not very pleasant to listen to.

[mahler151]

That's your opinion. I find Rap and Country to sound absolutely horrendous, but I'm not saying so to people who do like it, am? I?

[rub800]

@mahler151

but complex not necessarily means better.. I would say it's just different, because it uses another scheme for composition

[jasonmathias]

@mahler151 I think it is in the twelve tone system right? Well I like it. It's different and I feel it. Put I also love Jazz and Philip Glass. (Not saying Glass is jazz BTW.)

[mahler151]

@jasonmathias Yes, this is twelve tone. I too admire Jazz and even find Philip Glass to be alright (far from my favorite, though).

[jamesharvey101]

@mahler151 isn't the fact that you acknowledge what it sounds like rather damning? haha

[mahler151]

@jamesharvey101 Yes, I acknowledge that to some who percieve beauty as black and white that it is rather ugly.

[mahler151]

Some of these comments make me want to shoot my big toe with a shotgun.

[awesomewelles90]

gould is a hack

[cait93]

hey is this serialism??

[EnkeliJaPerkele]

yep, first schoenberg composition fully based on it.

[hartistry]

Rest in Peace Giant of the Piano Glenn Gould. Nice piece. Too short. I wanted more.

[darkmoma]

Joder Glenn, deja algo para los demás!!

[kellymich]

What is surviving and what will survive is tonal music the fundaments of western music on a popular, folkish, worldwide basis As the world moves toward globalism and multiculturalism we are already seeing art beginning to accommodate the great numbers of the earth.

12 tone music was late to the west, very late, and will be lucky if it rates a footnote in the dying legacy of high western art and culture.

[BuckshotLaFunke]

You may be right, but I'll be applauding both text and footnote then.

[kristopaivinen]

The footnote, in that case, will be largely thanks to youtube and the internet.

[DocHou72]

Glenn Gould is a fantastic man.

[handshake3heartbreak]

this is going to sound silly i know, but there is definitely no time signature to this piece is there?

:)

[smg125]

There is, but it's just changing constantly

:)

[Aryozad]

FUCK YEAH GLENN GOULD!!!

[Alucards666Mistress]

best performance i've heard so far

[Stoopchow]

The picture of schoenberg at the blackboard perfectly sums up the twelve tone series. While it may have been an intriguing new idea at the time we have to look back and see that it has more to do with maths than with art

[kristopaivinen]

If the picture of Schoenberg at the blackboard would sum up any twelve tone series, then your greatest problem would surely be the lack of existing evidence showing that Schoenberg ever taught atonality or the twelve-tone technique in class.

"People accuse me of being a mathematician, but I am not a mathematician, I am a geometer." -Arnold Schoenberg

[hexachordal]

Geometers rule!

[sithlord7m]

well kristo, he could have just been using the board for himself regardless....

[Cardossian]

It appears that he is dealing with tonal music in the picture with the blackboard. I see a G7 followed by a C. Also there is a "III", probably referring to a mediant chord. Schoenberg both wrote and taught about tonal music.

[E51161]

really

[amistrymister]

ITS TRUE! THE MEDIANT IS PRESENT!

[Claramausi667]

what a terrible opinion. you have not a single clue. read what schönberg wrote about it!

[fescolfaro]

agreed, it has never caught the attention of the general public, and it's a negative affirmation of tonality, nevertheless it's as beautiful as an art work can be...

[Lionhaircut]

This is very contrapuntal and is (if i'm right) Schoenberg's first atonal piece. Each movement are composed of the same eight forms of a row. He creates the impression of always staying in a single key which is typical of the Baroque suite.

[diditrich]

It´s not his first atonal piece. His first experiments in atonality were those three pieces op. 11. The first dodecaphonic piece he preoduced was the waltzer in the five piano pieces op. 23.

[Lionhaircut]

Well, a teacher of Mcgill told me that this piece is the first of Schoenberg that is completely atonal. I know that he experimented atonality before. Maybe we are all wrong!

It doesn't really matter.

[faustianliszt]

You're not completely wrong... but specifically, this is the first 12-tone (or dodecaphonic to use a $25,000 word as diditrich did) in which he uses the same row for all movements of the entire piece.

[alicelerobo]

his first atonal work is considered second string quartet's last movement.

[p0lyph0ny]

The tone row for this piece is E F G Db Gb Eb Ab D B C A Bb. Note the reverse B-A-C-H motif (HCAB) in the last four notes.