Bootleg, knock off, generally illegal products. Yea or nay?

[joshuagundamu]

my fav toyline gundam msia was recently discontinued. i would buy replacement shoudlers, or custom made weapons. also knockoffs are interesting things to find. not great, but interesting. i find it fun as a collector to try and find the knock off action figure gundams. but action figures are kinda different than models. in models, if i cant buy the official one because its non existent at present day, id get it knock off.

[darkz1820]

i prefer to get bandai product but for people who love to make custom ones for fun it's better to get a decent knock off one while getting getting actual bandai if entering any competition.



[GamingRetrospective]

Not going to lie, I dont know whether or not I'd be able to tell the difference between the official product and fake ones. I'm glad i've watched your video.

[Guiltaur]

@GamingRetrospective - I'm glad you found my video useful. :)

[orgxiiiaxel]

im on bandai side but to think of it some people cant afford to buy original bandai model so they buy bootlegs..

[kmonsvik]

The biggest reason for me is just that the money goes to the right ppl, if everybody gave their money to the bootlegs, then Bandai would not be able to put out as many new products or put in as much research and development into their kits etc.

[PistOffBruteStudios]

resign kits are made by b-club (which is a branch of bandai)

[Guiltaur]

@PistOffBruteStudios - B-Club makes a minority of the resin kits on the market.

[2Old4Toys]

What do you say to this? watch?v=Y67gcS5ATBI

[Guiltaur]

@2Old4Toys - It's a product that I classify as a KO as it, as far as I understand, is a replication of the MP OP action figure, albeit scaled down. Being a KO, I have no interest in it and I don't support it as it competes directly with an existing TakaraTomy and Hasbro product.

[vf1rj]

I thought Prime92 is a dude?

[Guiltaur]

@vf1rj - Nope, she's a lady. :)

[WingChroniam]

@Guiltaur WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG and here I was about to comment how creepy it was that his %^&* was soo.... out there....

[OdeToSoIitude]

@vf1rj lol i thought she was a dude too, till someone told me shes a girl but i still choose to believe shes a guy.

[DevilKnowing]

$100 original or $30 for a near identical knock off.

Decisions decisions.

[TheIkawatay]

illegal crap sometimes works, just like prime92 and prime92 should change her name to tthongli92 or something which is much more appropriate heh...

[Testingpointer1]

i try to buy one tt hongli dynames 1/144 hg, and actually,.. i didnt feel like it worth my money,.. when i look at the dynames knock off and in my 1/144 ng savior,.. i feel more happy to a bandai no grade than a knock off high grade,.. maybe its because i feel the real gundamness in bandai,.. because they are the one that are entitled to craft what in the anime was,.. since then i did not ever buy knock off,.,.

[anubisxdmj0]

When I was a kid I love gundam mode so much and in where I live there is only knock off avaiable(Small town in china). And as a kid I didn't have much money to buy the real one (I didn't know what is bandai at that time) but I think in my case the knock off some how show me the fun of building a model and made me love Gundam. and as I grow up I start to buy Bandai Kits(Only 3 reasonly, But I bring them all across the ocean in the U.S.)

[anubisxdmj0]

but for some reason the knoff at that time was not that bad (or maybe because bandai was not that good) but before I left china the last knoff I built was piece of crap LOL

[Guiltaur]

Haha, I think there's some truth in that. There have been vast improvements in Bandai's Gunpla products in the last decade so it's not so easy for a KO to offer something close to the real product these days.

[BlueGolem10384]

I did not know that there were illegal kits?

[DavidPrime83]

I guess i am a tentative Yea on the KO and what not as it lends chance to get some hard to get molds with quality or not you can fix some problems

[Guiltaur]

Good point on the hard to get molds. I think it's more of an issue with action figures(especially Tranformers figures) as many Gundam model kits are still relatively available a decade after their initial release.

One thing I would have liked to mention but forgot to was the impact of the bootleg market for Transformers. It seems like some companies like Fansproject are making very good products, so good that it's tempting to overlook the legality of their products.

[DavidPrime83]

BUT can you call it bootlegging when its really just a fan project ;) I mean a lot of there stuff is add on for existing transformers toys and makes them so much better like the G3 trailer and the city commander set. you are right it does draw some interesting questions but then again i am just a little guy in North Carolina...ok not so little but my collection is average :D

[Guiltaur]

If a product uses the intellectual property of someone else without the consent of the owner of the IP and is sold, it's a bootleg product. The City Commander and G3 trailer are not KOs as they don't replicate existing product designs but they are certainly examples of bootlegs because of their illegal usage of IP.

[DavidPrime83]

Ahhhhh, well i don't think Hasbro would take to much action agents party's like Fans-project or reblolables as they would get a lot of bad publishity and perhaps even lose needed bisness, frankly i think certain fan productions and bootleg kits Help the Hasbro sell some toys

[Guiltaur]

I think the main factor holding Hasbro back from taking legal action is a matter of practicality. They simply can't stop bootlegging. They can shut down one operation but then another would simply take its place.

It could be argued that products like FP's work does help Hasbro and TakaraTomy in that their work enhances existing official products and one must buy a Hasbro TF to use something like the City Commander.

[Guiltaur]

Additionally, a Hasbro representative stated at Botcon 2009, I believe, that the company does take issue with the manufacture and sale of full figure products that are priced at $100 or more. It could be why FP's "Defender" action figure that is obviously based upon Springer is not priced at $100 considering that the action figure would seem to cost more in its R&D than the City Commander.

[mokanaman]

But the B-club stuff is prone to heavy recasting which to my knowledge Bandai has never challenged. Now to TT Hongli and Prime 92, from what I under stand P92 is sponsored by Walter Hobby and reviews the TT Hongli kits. With a very large following of 3000+ subscribers who rely on Prime to give advice in buying model kits. I see this as mass advertisement of a black market good. With numbers like this she can not claim innocents in showing off something she loves. That's my two cents...

[Guiltaur]

prime92 doesn't need any defending but unless she says in a review of a KO that she recommends people make a purchase, she's not guilty of anything aside from reviewing a bootleg product.

The fact that she has a lot of subscribers doesn't make her any more guilty than anyone else who reviews bootleg products here at Youtube. If she advocated the purchase of such products, it would be a different story.

[tc012009]

Call me cynical, but the fact that her sponsor is the main (only?) online retailer suppling TT Hongli KO kits, just doesn't sit well with me.

[Guiltaur]

A question I have then is: Do you draw a significant distinction between KOs and other bootleg products with respect to legality?

The reason I ask is that prime92 gets singled out for reviewing KOs but it seems like everyone else gets a free pass for reviewing other types of unlicensed products like most conversion kits or products like the City Commander set by Fansproject. Additionally, prominent online retailers like BigBadToyStore carry bootleg products.

[tc012009]

Personally I have always treated KOs and Bootlegs as illegal products and have never supported them. I do however respect anyones right to buy a KO.

Its not my intention to bash p92 who IMO has done a great service for the youtube gunpla community. I just cant see the reason for the sheer amount of KO reviews she has posted. A couple of TT Hongli reviews would have been sufficient to highlight the general benefits and pitfalls of theses KO kits.

[Guiltaur]

If she had the intent of showing the pros and cons of TT Hongli products, I imagine a single review would be sufficient and she would have stopped at that point.

I can't speak for prime92 but it's my understanding that she simply likes KOs and reviews them.

[tc012009]

I have a feeling that when prime reviews the TT Hongli Sinanju (LOL, which very existence is blasphemy!!) Walter Hobby is going to receive a lot of orders for the KO kit.

We've a great thread on this very topic on the gundam eclipse forum which you should check out if you get a chance, its amazing how passionate people are about this topic.

[Guiltaur]

I'm no gunpla/plamo vet myself but I think the majority of people who would buy a KO of the Sinanju based on anyone's review would be of the more inexperienced division of plamo hobbyists.

KOs have seemingly little to offer the more experienced plamo hobbyists except for extra parts/material for kitbashing. Even then, it seems like the few high level plamo customizers take the route of scratch building their own components.

I'll have to check out that threat at the forum ASAP. :)

[mokanaman]

@Guiltaur

As an experienced hobbyists we tent not to use KO's period. For cheap you can by second hand damaged/ missing pieces or really old no grade kits for as little as a few dollars as a base to start a bits box. If some one wanted a kit to learn how to fill seam lines and paint can use the re-released 1980 kits or no grades between $3 to $7 that is cheaper then KO! Snappers aside we hobbyist have no reason to by bootlegs period...

[Guiltaur]

Thanks for sharing the PoV of an experienced hobbyist, mokanaman!

I wish I started off with no grades for practice as I look back now on my first model kits from a few months ago. Not that I'm an experienced modeler at this time. :)

I made so many mistakes on great model kit! I'm ashamed, haha. Oh well, I've learned one way or another how to improve my techniques. The online hobbyist community is also so wonderful for sharing knowledge and experience. :)

[mokanaman]

@Guiltaur

No problems. It is a shame that this bootleg issue is dividing the youtube gunpla community. A lot of people have very strong views with pointless arguments and a lack of information in there evidence. Copyright is a gray area in this hobby but some are taking advantage of it...

As a rule of thumb I will always refuse styrene KO from china. But will approve of quality resin recasts and decals. They are done in small numbers and do not hurt anyone...

[Guiltaur]

I definitely agree that it's a shame that this issue divides the Gunpla community not only here at Youtube but at large as well. Fortunately, this particular discussion has been great for people contributing in a constructive manner. :)

I have no interest in KOs but as I've said before, conversion and resin kits that aren't replicating an existing mold are interesting to me because they don't directly compete with an existing legal product. It's no less illegal than KOs but it is different.

[MeisterStyx]

wrong, not all resin kits are illegal, B Club Resin Kits are official, and please my god,saying prime is making us a service comon, your better than this, shes indeed making publicity to tt hongli, and the worst shes telling people where to buy so please dont say those things, if people arent happy there must be a reason dont you think so? we dont bash her chanel just because we have fun doing it.

[Guiltaur]

@MeisterStyx

Not all resin kits are illegal, true and I agree, but the majority of them are unlicensed products. B Club's kits make up a tiny fraction of the resin kits available on the market. I don't have a problem with unlicensed resin kits, to be honest, if they provide a mold of a design that isn't currently available as an official model kit.

I can't speak for her but Prime92 hasn't crossed the line yet. She's giving TT Hongli exposure but it can't be helped unless she doesn't...

[Guiltaur]

mention them at all.

Is she advocating the purchase of the KO model kits? To be honest, with her more recent reviews, she is getting closer in that she's showing people more well producted KO kits...which can tempt people. However, I still believe that at the least she is informing people about the KO model kits. What people do with that knowledge is up to them. That's my view unless she outright suggests to people that buying KO model kits is a good alternative to legit kits.

[tc012009]

Original unlicenced products kinda a grey areas for me. Their existance doesn't directly damage an existing products sales but you can argue that the UL product is using another companies intellectual property for gains.

You could also argue that unlicenced mods help to stimulate a licence holder to produce better products. I'm sure that the existance of the 00 Seven swords conversion kits were the reason for Bandai's upcoming HG kit.

[Guiltaur]

I see all bootleg products on equal footing. They're simply illegal.

However, I admit that conversion kits and other products that do not replicate existing products(ie molds) are appealing to me because they offer something that isn't available via official product lines.

I think the impact of unlicensed products on the regular business decisions of a company like Bandai is iffy at best. Previous to the 7S conversion kit, Bandai was already milking the 00 Gundam design for all it's worth.

[hidaditsme]

@mokanaman She's not sponsored by them...she bought them. She was one of the few lucky people who joined adsense early on and therefore she earns money proportional to her number of views. She just buys kits, stays home with her parents and has fun all day. She just bought TT hongli kits, and reviewed them, then they just took her reviews and then posted them on their site to get some validity to appear more legit. So yeah...nothing did or could have happened to her.

[mokanaman]

@hidaditsme

lol, I publicly announced on my channel that I would drop the issue after Prime92 announced she will not buy more after TT was being sued by Bandai. You owe me an apology for digging up an old arse issue. Have a nice day dude...

[hidaditsme]

@mokanaman umm...why? I didn't say anything but the truth. =-/

[mokanaman]

@hidaditsme

lol, I do not under stand why you are bothering me over a long and dead issue. I advise you to drop this before you publicly make an arse of yourself. You are 100% correct but things were different 5 months ago. The evidence is on her account dude...

[hidaditsme]

@mokanaman ....? OH. Sorry, when I roam the comments I always comment on things that are wrong (Prime being sponsored by walter (Sponsored means paid)), so I normally just comment on it. I'm used to forums, so I guess I forgot it gives you a comment to your inbox directly....Umm...why so harsh to me though in the first place? I was just correcting a misinformed statement you made....that's it. =- /

[mokanaman]

@hidaditsme That's cool dude the comment lay out on youtube is really confusing and can get to the best of us. I didn't intend to be harsh and read the situation of you being a troll instead of making an honest mistake. I'm sorry on my part and hope there is no bad blood...

[hidaditsme]

@mokanaman nah, if you look at my vids I'm a gundam guy. So i'm not trolling. Honest mistake on both of our parts, so It's kk. :D

[mokanaman]

I can help clean up the issue with resin kits. B-club is Bandai's resin division while G system is a garage kit group. B-club stuff is done in very small numbers and normal are really costly. Garage kits are models of licensed identity with out permission but are rarely challenged by Bandai and works a lot like dojin. At times events like Wonderfest would allow people selling original garage kits and even at times there kits are picked up by licensed business then mass produced...

[Guiltaur]

Thanks for the information! I'm aware of B-Club being a part of Bandai but I have no idea if there are other producers who have license to manufacture model kits using Bandai's intellectual property.

All of the producers of conversion kits I've found so far have no indication in their company background sections that they are in partnership with Bandai.

[chiosin]

something i missed in my video.i bought my first fake gundam kit when i was still in the 6th grade, and i didn't know what quality kits meant until i got them, i did swear off buying fake kits, so now i kind of ended up buying these fake kits for kit bashing and personal practice for building/moding kits. for a person who builds knock offs and originals i still think that going for the original is the best. but trust me even with problems, fake kits still have great plastic for mod a enthusiast

[Guiltaur]

KOs are great for use in kit bashing and modding.

[angeluz]

knockoffs is hard to assemble BANDAI rules!!!!!!!! and BANDAI should be cheaper haha

[Guiltaur]

Bandai actually has fair pricing in my opinion for the vast majority of their products. HG 00 Gundam offers playability/articulation superior to high end action figures in a model kit for 1000 yen...that's amazing in my opinion.

[crapmunky99]

I'll agree that the HG 00 is probably the greatest ever deal in Gunpla, but it's an exception. Especially lately, Bandai's kits are really starting to go up in price.

But that said, I'll never buy knock offs, simply because they wouldn't stack up to proper standards.

But then you have the PG 00 Raiser. I've consistently heard that it's like a glorified MG, and that, while it is good, it's not $300+ good.

So to me, neither side in this issue is perfect, but I'll stick with Bandai nonetheless.

[Guiltaur]

The HG 00 Gundam is definitely an exception. While Bandai's prices are going up for their model kits, their level of engineering is improving as well.

I think that Bandai is the fairest game in town for model kits in that you get the most for your dollar.

The PG 00 Raiser is definitely a good model kit but I agree, I don't think it's worth the money you have to pay for it.

[Tri3dgE027]

If they truly have "passion" for the industry, at the very least they could have just created their own designs based-off the existing models in Gundam, give proper engineering to their molds, and lastly create their templates .

Unless of course you consider "faking-things" as passion of the industry.

[tc012009]

Excellent point, if TT Hongli produced their own Mecha range then I'd be happy to support them.

[Tri3dgE027]

Plus I loled on Hongli's business goal (quoted from their website's about us page)

"All staffs of the company is active in developing new products with great passion to raise the company to a much higher stage with best development. "

Passion, development? What the heck?! All they've done is to take someone's design and use it for their profit.

[Tri3dgE027]

One word in regards to knock-offs, don't support them. But if your going to buy it, its your choice.

Plus one thing that ticks me off are the fake copies of the MG RX-78-2 ver 2.0 and Sinanju which are the pinnacle of plastic engineering in Bandai''s line. Now before someone says: "Fanboys...", no that's not the point. The point is that people from Bandai are working hard to engineer these stuff, at the very least we as consumers must support them for the hard wok they have done.

[ZR0Ver2]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Buying bandai is also a way of thanking them for creating gundam itself in the first place.

[tc012009]

The main arguement for KO products is price (this is a major factor for people on tight budgets).

Personally, I avoided buying KO products as they are always inferior to the original. The fact that I know nothing about the business ethics of the companys producing the KO's is another reason.

Another factor is how safe are the KO products? As they are illegal products how can we tell if they contain toxic content (e.g. lead)?

Theres a lot of passion on both sides of this debate.

[Guiltaur]

Very good point about the possibility of unknown material content of KO products. These companies are accountable to no one, unlike a legitimate company that has shareholders. So who knows what compromises they will make during the manufacturing process?

Personally, I believe that despite saving money on a KO, they will never surpass the original product. At best, they seem to be almost as good but not without extra time and effort on the owner's part.

[neospacexx]

Well I feel resin are great since they do not copy the kits bandai made but a improvement,as for knock off,I dont think I would be getting one.

[ZR0Ver2]

I just realised something else, maybe bandai like conversion kits cause they require a bandai kit as a frame.

The popularity of the resin seven sword probably caused them to create the HG seven sword/G.

Resin kits can be benificial to bandai to some extent, but KOs are just thieving.

[Guiltaur]

That's a good point! Conversion kits require a Gundam frame(though I suppose one could buy a KO model and use its inner frame).

I do see KOs are outright theft because they use an existing product in their manufacturing and the KO then directly competes with the original product.

[KPHM42]

I ordered a TT Hongli 1/100 Dynames to check out what all the fuss is about. What the plastic is like and so forth. I'll still get a real one, but I want to experience it firsthand. Resin kits are a different breed than knockoffs. Resin kits are usually to help enhance or make suits that you can't buy. Like a resin 1/100 Marasai, which I've always wanted.

[Guiltaur]

I definitely see a difference between the role of KOs and resin kits. Like you said, conversion kits enhance an existing model kit or create a model that isn't currently available through the official product line.

[chunlau]

Only buy the real stuff from bandai

[ZR0Ver2]

Since the TT hongli Sinanju and RX-78 Ver2.0 were released my hatred for knockoffs has increased. Buying the official ones is a way of thanking Bandai for creating such masterpieces in the first place. Knockoff maufacturers basically steal from the original creators.

Bandai dont really care about Resin kits cause the market is very limited.

I think G-system may actually licence designs from bandai, not totally sure.

[myspacesuck667]

Right on dude!

I feel the same way.

[Guiltaur]

KOs compete directly with existing products, which makes them the most serious offenders in the bootleg industry in my opinion.

Apparently there's a G-System Shop, G-System Best, and G-System Models, which all appear to be different companies.

G-System Shop's "Company Background" page doesn't mention any official dealings with Bandai so I suspect that they deal in bootleg products.

They also warn people about KOs of their products...the irony is amusing to me.

[ZR0Ver2]

Some G-system shop kits were'nt designed by bandai.

Model Graphix designed the S-gundam and EX-S.

There may be an agreement there. I feel that their resin kits are too high quality to be all bootlegs.

Unfortunately i cant find any info confirming or denying any of this speculation.

[Guiltaur]

I'm of the view that KOs, specifically, are often of lesser quality due to the fact that they are usually recasts. Products like conversion kits can be of higher quality because their molds are often built from scratch.

[tc012009]

I share your disappointment regarding the KO Sinanju and RX78-2 V2. These are real flagship products for Bandai and the existance of the KO product has got to impact Bandai.

If 3,000 KO Sinanjus are sold (it retails for approx $80-$85) worldwide then this represent a loss in sales of over $250,000 for Bandai.

[TheCanadian316]

I wouldn't waste my time with a KO, the only reason I would buy one is for the inner frames, to do say, a resin kit.

[Guiltaur]

I've read others say basically the same thing. Get a KO for use with a conversion kit rather than a full price official model kit..

[Ubiquitial1]

Prime92's a girl!?

[Guiltaur]

Yes.

[THEPAINE552]

@Ubiquitial1 yup