Re: Biblical Polygamy: Plural Marriage in the Holy Bible

[TheRamyk]

long live plural marraige

[fairlightdawn112]

Hagar was Abraham's wife, too. A concubine is a wife without inheritance rights. Abraham was also married to Keturah, later on.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@fairlightdawn112 Would make sense, since she is still the property of her mistress after marriage and doesn't need inheritance. I refuse to believe GOD would allow his people to marry a girl and then leave her hanging dry after death.

Abraham married Keturah after Sarah had died. So unless he had others wives we don't know of (which is entirely possible) we can't really make that conclusion, though given the lot she bore Abraham it's a good bet.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch Scratch that last. I can be completely blind sometimes. He did have others. Gen 25.

[fairlightdawn112]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch Yep he did ! :-D

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

con't- ...GOD is either "washing away the FILTH of the daughters of the Zion" or "washing away the FILTH OF THE DAUGHTERS OF ZION." Either He is washing away their filth or the daugthers are the filth He is washing away. It can go both ways. IMO, I believe it is the former because the passage is about making the city new again, clean and free from sin.

[VictorLepanto]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch: No. Your 2nd interpretation is impossible. The Daughters of Zion, or sometimes simply Daughter of Zion, are or is a symbol of Jerusalem. If I said that I am cleaning the filth of the bald eagle you wouldn't think I meant the bald eagle is filthy. As a symbol of America, purifying the bald eagle means purifying America. The Daughters of Zion are Zion.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto Well, luckily I don't hold to the 2nd interpretation. Anyway, I haven't read the chapter in the Hebrew, so the English grammar kind of get's in the way.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

con't- ...which was not his doing I might add, nor not his idea. Now clearly the Bible shows us that polygynous marriages can have it's downsides emotionally, like any monogamous marriage, such as the strained relations between Rachel and Leah, but I believe GOD arranged for Jacob to marry them in order to show us that it okay, just so long it is done out of a loving spirit and not selfishness.

You can translate Isaiah 4:4 both ways actually....

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch On top of that, if you interpret the text as treating every woman as a sister, then it would be impossible to marry anyone, since the Bible clearly prohibits marriage between siblings.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

con't- ...write a law that dealt with situations arising between the children of different wives when it was a sin to marry multiples in the first place. Plus, as the text directly states, it is a sin to marry a women's sister in order to vex her. In other words, it is a sin to marry the sister if you know it's going to make things hard on your wife, because that is being selfish and not thinking of her needs before your own. Again, I quote the patriarch Jacob, who married a pair of sisters...

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

You are also correct about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were called holy because of their righteousness and not their marital situation. However I find a bit more than conincidence that the patriarchs of GOD's chosen nation practiced polygyny.

I disagree with your opinion on Deuteronomy 18:18. I do not believe it is prohibiting polygyny, or even polygyny involving sisters per se, since we have already seen in Rights of the 1stborn that polygyny is allowed. Wouldn't make much sense for GOD to...

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

I believe your argument for Exodus 21:10 is flawed.

Firstly, the tone of text makes it clear they taking another wife in addition to the maidservants.

Secondly, any deception on the master's part towards the maidservant is dealt with above.

Thirdly, the prase "duty of marriage" is rather a vague translation. The original hebrew is "עֹנַת (ownah)" which is, AIQ, "from an unused root apparently meaning to dwell together."(Strong's) There is no indication of freedom to marry as you suggest.

[tanyaswedlund]

God created Adam and Eve! Not Eve, Eva, Ava and so on, you get the point!

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@tanyaswedlund Actually, it wasn't even Eve. It was Hawwah. ;)

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@tanyaswedlund But on a more serious point, you are correct. Eve was the only woman created since she was "the mother of all living" And I think I understand why that was. GOD could have created Eva, Ava, Iva, and any other "va's" you can think of along with Eve. I should think it would have made life easier, but that would would have led to at least four separate strains of humanity that, should they all have sinned along with Eve, would constantly be at war with each other.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

con't- All humans on Earth are related back to Adam and Eve, and even as blood brothers, we can't even get along with each other. Just look at Cain and Abel. Had GOD granted Adam Eva, Ava, and Iva as well you would have four separate species of humans trying to occupy the same planet. Can you imagine the conflict that would spur. That's 1 theory. The other is that more than 1 woman and their children are too much to support on your own.

[VictorLepanto]

Actually, Abraham did NOT have many wives. He had one 1st marriage, Sarah, & then he took Hagar as a concubine. Hagar was never a wife. It was only when Sarah left Abraham a widower that he took a woman who was properly called a wife. Even she was only counted as a concubine as she only received a concubines inheritance. Abraham only had one full legal wife. Jacob is the only patriarch to actually practice polygamy.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto Same thing. A concubine is just a second wife. Mind you he didn't have her for long and married for the wrong reason. But yeah, apart from Hagar, Abraham didn't have "many" wives we know, although he probably could have afforded to, seeing that he was probably one of the richest men of his time.

[VictorLepanto]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch: No! I present the facts to you & you just ignore them & cling to your beloved prejudices. A CONCUBINE is not a WIFE! If one was a wife, they would simply call her a WIFE. Note how the wives & concubines of Jacob are clearly distinguished. Note also how it is pointed out that the concubines are creditted as in effect being the property of the wives & their births are counted to the legitimate wife. It carefully pointed out that the concubine didn't get a full inheritance.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto Hagar is given as a wife. KJV Genesis 16:3- "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Same think with Jacob and Bilhah & Zilpah. Both Leah and Rachel "gave her to Jacob to wife." A concubine as just a lower status of wife, ideally taken for the purpose of childbearing. The only difference between the two was the ceremony and dowries involved. You are right...

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto ...about them being property of their husband's wives since they are continually referred to as "Zilpah, Leah's maid", "Bilhah, Rachel's maid", and "Hagar, Sarai's maid" afterwards. Where is the biblical reference of them not recieving an inheritance? Although, being property of their mistresses, concubines would be cared for and not need money.

[VictorLepanto]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch: I was mainly referencing the 1st full wife of Abraham, that is Sarah, & his 2nd wife (who only received a concubine's inheritance) & of course Hagar. The whole matter of how Abe's estate was divided amongst his women & their children is in Gen. 25. Read it VERY closely. Vs. 1 tells us Abe married Keturah as "another wife." Review chap. 24 where Sarah's death is discussed. Gen. 25:5 says that Abe gave "All he had" to Isaac. 

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto Whoa, whoa, his 2nd wife? Who's that? I assume you're not referring to Hagar?

[VictorLepanto]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch: Abe's 2nd wife Keturah, read Gen. 25:1: she is called "another wife." This is immediately after 24:67, where Isaac's grief for his mother is mentioned. Isaac's marriage to Rebecca is mentioned to. Only Isaac receives the full inheritance, Keturah's children aren't counted as full heirs. Keturah is counted a concubine, she receives a concubine's inheritance like Hagar's son. Read chap's 23-25, think Sarah's line only is legitimate, this is the point here.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto I agree. Even though Ishmael was the eldest and even by biblical law should have recieved the full inheritance, he was illegitimate in God's eyes because Sarah the chosen was to come from Sarah. Keturah was a concubine, just a lower status of wife, her sons were not give full inheritance. Actually, technically the Hebrew אִשָּׁ֖ה or simply "woman." Abraham took another woman would be more accurate.

[VictorLepanto]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch: I hadn't thought of that. No, I don't think Keturah is refered to as the Ishet Avraham. In Genesis 11:29 it is Ishet-Avram. That makes it part of s'meechut pair, thus it means woman of Avram. That makes her a legit. wife. Keturah is only called ishah. It is not ishet-Avraham. It simply means Abraham took another woman. Another woman besides Sarah & Hagar. Sarah is dead & Hagar is gone. Abraham only had one wife.

[VictorLepanto]

@VictorLepanto: To continue, in vs. 6, Abe is said to have given "gifts" to the sons of his "concubines." In verse 11 it is said that God blessed "Isaac," "his son." In vs. 10 it pointed says that Abe was buried w/ "his wife" Sarah. In vs. 12 it is repeated that Ishmael was born to Hagar who was "Sarah's maid." This is all very pointed. Chap. 24 & 25 are very pointed in distinguishing the relative status of the women & their children. Keturah must be one of the two concubines spoken of in vs.6.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@VictorLepanto Yeah, all true. In fact I would say that Hagar is continued to be called "Sarah's maid" because the marriage was not recognized in God's eyes, because they married for the wrong reason. Like a lot of people in the Bible, Sarah thought GOD was taking to long to give her a son and decided to "help him out."

[fairlightdawn112]

There is no Biblical prohibition against polygyny anywhere in the Bible. Many of God's choicest servants were polygynous and were NOT condemned for it. King David was judged for committing adultery (he took another man's wife) and King Solomon sinned by worshipping the idols of his foreign wives. Please put your cultural prejudices aside and study this issue in a neutral way. There isn't room to go into it here but you have not properly exegeted the Scriptures you mentioned.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@fairlightdawn112 Correct there is no prohibition against it and the very fact that his choicest servants practiced it would seem to indicate that polygyny is perfectly biblical and perhaps even encouraging. I would point out however that no polygynous marriages in the Bible are seamless. Each of them brewed rivalry between the wives, and not just those who were literal sisters I might add, whereas in monogamy you don't have that problem [just different ones ;)]. While polygyny may be...

[fairlightdawn112]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch I agree ! There are benefits and challenges with both types of marriage. Interestingly, while we differentiate between the two "types" of marriage. The Bible didn't. In the Bible, marriage was marriage regardless of the number of wives present. God Bless ! :-)

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@fairlightdawn112 Grace & Peace be to you as well from the Elohim our Father & the Christ our Lord Jesus.

[AstroAntaAposAnarch]

@fairlightdawn112 That's western philosophy for you. I find it amusing that people will fume over the suggestion of polygyny but are mostly fine with divorcing one wife after another.

[fairlightdawn112]

@AstroAntaAposAnarch Modern western culture inherited serial monogyny from ancient Rome !!!

[ProveYourFaith]

The Law of Torah demands a man to take his dead brothers wife to conceive her a child unto his brother. This did not matter if the man was already married! For anyone to say it is sin for a man to take another to wife they are calling Gods law sin!

You foolishly present modern understanding with no regard to scripture.

[Glorthac]

2) The Law of Torah does NOT demand Levirate marriage. Deut 25:27 allows a man NOT to participate in Levirate marriage. So, if he was already married, he would opt out of Levirate marriage through this passage. This is my interpretation of Levirate marriage. ANYWAY, I've won my argument with point 1. Marriage is not just sex, there is a ceremony.

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac There is no Deu 25:27

[ProveYourFaith]

(Gen 24:67 KJV) And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

You are way off Wife means you had sex with her. To take a wife is to know a woman in scripture. The term to wife means you have had sex with her! Marriage is just coming together.

[Glorthac]

Wrong, all Genesis 24:67 says is that during that time having sex was the final step in the process of marriage. However, if a man didn't fulfil certain other prerequisites (such as going to prepare a place for her), but had sex with a woman, they haven't consumated a legal marriage, but have committed adultery and were to be stoned.

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac The braking of her virginity was the covenant. This was done as soon as she came to him. There was nothing else required.

[Glorthac]

Can you prove there are no other prerequisites? Btw, I'm using the argument from silence, so you can't disprove a negative, hehe. You Lose.

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac Yes I can, it is not in the scripture to do more! Your like a child how old are you?

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac Man you are just not getting it. No man or woman is joined in covenant with God without Blood. All covenants with God must be blood covenants. The woman's virginity is the covenant. This is referred to as a token she was a maid. There is no Marriage ceremony in scripture it is a Pagan ritual. The Families came together and celebrated the union with a feast ONLY. Jesus commands us not to make any vow at all to anyone! You are in a Pagan Church.

[Glorthac]

1) It is in the Scriptures to do more than sleep with a woman! Deut 22:13-21 speaks of a man marrying a woman, and then saying she was not a virgin. The woman is to be brought before the Sanhedrin, and her hymen is checked. My point is, if the marriage ceremony was only sex, then no woman would have a hymen, and all women would be found guilty. So it MUST be that some married women did not have their hymen broken, and thus were virgins.

[Glorthac]

3) Yes, marriage is sealed with a blood covenant, but that is the last part of the process, as I've shown with point 1. And Jesus did NOT tell us we couldn't take vows, He said we couldn't SWEAR in regards to QUESTIONS, but our ANSWERS are yea and nay.

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac You don't know scripture at all guy.

(Joh 4:18 KJV) For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

Jesus was clear anyone you have sex with is your husband but only the first is the husband by law because of her virginity. Being catholic you really are not aware of Jewish customs in the days of Jesus.

[Glorthac]

I meant Deut 25:7. My point is still valid, you CAN get out of Levirate marriage. So if you are already married, you would get out of Levirate marriage that way.

Secondly, Jesus was saying these 5 men are married to her by common law, but only the first was a true marriage.

Thirdly, you have GIVEN UP trying to explain to me Deut 22:13-21, because it refutes you. Some married women are virgins, thus marriage isn't just sex. YOU LOSE.

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac I don't know how you see the things you claim seeing Deu 25 :7 on say a man is to shunned if he does not build up his brothers house are you slow or something?

(Deu 25:10 KJV) And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

This means he is shunned . Not to mention his other wife had nothing to do with it.

[Glorthac]

I agree that he is shunned, but so what? He can still get out of Levirate marriage.

But answer me once and for all on Deut 22:13-21. How are some married women virgins, if you think marriage is sex only?

[ProveYourFaith]

@Glorthac You position was he can get out of taking his brothers widow if he was already married if that was the case then he would not have been shunned for it. Yah actually killed men in scripture for not taking their brothers widow. It was a serious sin. If you want the answer to this ask me and I will give you what to say that allows you to say polygamy is wrong. However to say it is a sin is to say God himself is unrighteous.

[saraa49]

I agree that polygamy is permitted in the bible. I do agree that the Mormon Church is right concerning multiple marriages because almost all God’s prophets had many wives. I think these verses are enough evidences that multiple wives is permitted in the bible. I hope all Christian churches will do the same. I am going to join the Mormon Church soon. We are not perfect, and not all churches are perfect, God is. God never warned his prophets about multiple wives. God warned kings.

[saraa49]

It is Leviticus 18:18, not Deuteronomy 18:18

"Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living." Leviticus 18:18

[ProveYourFaith]

@saraa49 Because it is her nearest of kin but if she isn't then you can have her.

[shebasonofsolomon]

I don't think anything, I know the signs of the coming of the Son of man and the people in my community have witnessed them n local L.EO. That's besides the point, I have the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And give a report to the Father, this is a bit over your head.  First you'd have to know who is or what Elijah the prophet came to do. Too begin to fathom who I am. If you really want to know feel free to seek and find. It's no secret but being kept as so. Believe it or not, I am Son of man..

[shebasonofsolomon]

The all knowing God of Israel creator of heaven and earth doesn't need you to fill in blanks for HIM. If having more than one wife was a sin than it would have been said plainly. But because of western cultural conditioning its your tradition. Read what GOD says not the precepts of men.Show me one place where the GOD of ISRAEL told Solomon his sin was having multiple wives. The kingdom was divided due to idolatry. The new covenant doesn't mention anyone but the house of Israel and Judah Hebrews8

[Glorthac]

Just wondering, cause I saw your channel, do you really think you are Jesus?

[Wwwendy4JC]

Thank you for your response. I am glad you pointed to the truth. God will truely bless you for doing this. I pray that LDS church would realize that thier teachings are very deceptive.

[Glorthac]

Here's my response to the mess between me and guitarbyous:

/watch?v=179DX2tVqoo

[DaniteLDS]

Excellent job, thanks for the video response. Keep up the good work!

[ezyccn30]

i love it no polygamy please thanks!!!!

[altorstenlinton]

Awesome as always Glorthac....your research and study and points is very good although I believe u could have put more if the video limit wasn't there.

[testskriftene]

mormons must defend polygamy - because Joseph Smith practiced it.. No one who practiced polygamy in the Bible where commanded.. God never told anyone to practice it - because God does not like it... its all men´s lust or not trusting the lord that is the reason some men in the Bible practiced it...

[JustinMartyrJr]

Christians are too caught up in the vilification of LDS to the point where LDS get discriminated against, because of their past practices & mistakes. Christians forget what happened to their fellow Christians under the same vilification tactics used by Atheist Communists. Who vilified bible prophets & Christians who accepted the word of "God" from prophets or kings that ran around naked, got drunk, ordered mass murders, performed bloody rites, had many wifes, contradicted themselves, etc., etc.

[dimtry19]

..What is Justin "crying" and complaing that his mormon cult is "pesecuterd" on this thread...His mormon cult , after all claims to be the "rstored church" with the "restored gospel" with the "restored prophet of the restoration" after 2000 years of Christianity...Why is this "cry baby" so upset when so many holes are exposed in his cult's doctrines?..