To see another TABLE from American's for Fair Taxation's research which gives away what the Fair Tax really is (a plan to make the middleclasses work more to have the same standard of living as now, while the wealthy get much wealthier under it), see TABLE 5 page 26 at tinyurl 593htl. Notice which income groups labor supply increases the most ($0-$149k) and which grps real wages increase the most (more than $150k, up 48%). Notice how the $50k group works 10.3% more for a wage increase of 1.5%.
There really is no debate, as Americans For Fair Taxation's OWN RESEARCH shows this fact: the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the effective taxes (i.e. raise the amount of taxes they pay) of those making from around $15,000 to $150,000 ,and would on average lower the taxes paid by those who make more than $150,000 a year. It is a very bad idea, and would destroy the US economy if enacted. Thankfully it never will even be considered for a vote.
This point is not debateable, as it is in SUPPORTERS' own research:
under the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI, those making from about $15k to $150k a year would pay MOREin federal taxes than they do now, and those making over $150k would pay less than they do now. Do we really want to RAISE THE TAXES of the middle classes so we can LOWER the already very low taxes of the wealthy? This tax is NASTI, and a very bad idea.
not true @forexrobots212, bexcause of the monthly pre-bate in the Fair Tax, and the Fair Tax de-taxing all used sec ond-hand items, it would benefit the poor, and because the rich also buy luxury items (the prebate only de-taxes items up to the poverty level, so currently, I would get somewhere near 180-190/month in pre-bate under the Fair Tax, as an individual) it would actually soak the rich. A bunch of different individuals created this thing called the Fair Tax.
For proof that the "Fair Tax" aka National Sales Tax Inclusive aka NASTI would raise the taxes of those making from about $15k to $150k a year while greatly lowering the taxes of most who make from around $150k up, one only needs to read and understand pages 30 on of one of fairtaxorg's own "research" at tinyurl 593htl. Pay particular attention to table 13-- this is how they claim the middleclass is better off under FT/NASTI, by them FALLING INTO POVERTY LEVEL every few years (see years 7-8).
For those still believing the "23% embedded" canard, which has been shown repeatedly to be false, here is one example why--
BobBoltCompany-- employees, Bob& Fred. Bob's eff.federal tax is at 23-30%, Fred's at 0%. What happens under FT if everyone every company keeps "whole wages"? Cost of goods(bolt, say) stays same as now... but retail prices have 30% FT added.
Fred has 0% more money & a "prebate" that offsets only part of inc., and thus pays 30% tax on rest. Bob=even or better off.
The "Fair" Tax aka national Sales Tax- Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the federal taxes of those making from $15k-$150k a year while lowering the fed taxes of those making over $150k a year. This is not debateable, it is from supporters' own site and "research".
How do they claim the middle classes will still be better off, then? By asserting that if one's income drops from $35k to $10k a year, one is better off. Does any sensible person think that way? tinyurl 593htl, table 13.
@FairTaxisaLie Any person who so desires can reduce his taxes by buying less stuff or by buying things that are not taxed, such as used items. A person can buy second-hand clothing, furniture, etc., and not pay any taxes on it. He only has to buy food new, and as long as he keeps the taxes on his food purchases below his prebate, he does not pay taxes on that either.
@forexrobots212 ... unless he pays rent (taxed 23%i/30%e), uses electricity(taxed), gas (taxed), car insurance(taxed), car tags (taxed),cellphone(taxed), internet connection (taxed), cable tv(taxed), medical bills/insurance(taxed), piano lessons(taxed), hires a lawyer(taxed), etc ad nauseum(taxed).
What is the purpose of earning money if one can't enjoy the fruits of one's labor without a massive tax increase (again, the "Fair" Tax aka NASTI would on average raise taxes on the middleclasses)?
@Diskatop I'd be curious to know how NASTI calculates the baseline. If they only count personal income tax, then the baseline would be lower. They need to also include Social Security and Medicare taxes (both employee and employer contributions) as well as embedded taxes in the prices of items. This includes the cost to the manufactures and retailer to comply with the tax code, a cost that gets passed on to the consumer.
@forexrobots212 They (fairtaxorg/BHI) likely include all that and more, since they are trying to their best to make it support the "Fair" Tax AKA National Sales Tax-Inclusive AKA NASTI. If they use governmental figures for effective federal tax rates it includes income tax, SS&medicare (both employee and prorated employer), prorated Estate taxes, Import duties, corporate taxes, etc.They don't want to have to say it raises midclasses taxes, but they do (hidden deep in their "research"). (Cont
@forexrobots212 (continued) any alleged "Embedded"taxes (city, state), which are very minor part of the costs of goods or in the price of items in most cases, & any minor "compliance" accntng costs that would be removed by an FT/NASTI replacing the current, would likely not be counted, as they are not paid by individuals' taxes and/or are minimal, and would likely be offset by the fact that costs NOT passed on to consumer prices (corporate taxes and estate taxes in particular) ARE included.
@Diskatop Clearly we have a difference of opinion as to how much embedded taxes contribute to the price of an item. Actually, I think that the fairtax should only be a stopgap while we phase out social security and medicare, pay off debt, privatize schools and roads, and make the Defense Department self financing. Then the remainder of government expenses could be covered through voluntary user fees, or perhaps a lottery.
@forexrobots212 Well, we know factually that neither corporate nor estate taxes are "embedded" in the price of anything. And as for income tax and SS/Medicare, thoseis embedded in wages, not cost of goods, as it cannot easily be separated out as a cost of goods sold before taxes, only after.
@Diskatopia Cost of compliance is an administrative cost that gets passed on to consumers. It would not be figured into cost of goods sold because it is an admin cost. It is not a cost directly related to acquisition of raw materials or manufacturing.
@forexrobots212 My point is that any alleged savings from less "compliance costs" in prices on the one hand are offset by the fact that, since the tax has to be revenue neutral, it has to collect enough to also cover corp., estate, and capital gains taxes, none of which are currently in the price of goods. Essentially any cost savings from no "compliance costs" is offset (or more than offset) by the capgains/estate/corp part of the 23%/30% (i.e.,part of the 23% is replacing taxes not in prices).
@Diskatopia Without corporate taxes the company owners and shareholders keep more of the profits or dividends. Those get spent and a sales tax is paid. An heir who goes on a shopping spree would also pay a sales tax. Actually, there are currently tricks that billionaires can use to pass their fortunes to their heirs while circumventing the estate tax.
@forexrobots212 You have now hit on another data tricks supporters' use to try and make the FT/NASTI look good-- claiming the economy will be raised due to invesytment... but the problems are that that investment is mainly by the wealthy using money that they would have paid in taxes under the system now, but that they get as income tax-free under FT/NASTI, then buying stocks&real estate tax-free. The result? More & more ownership of the nation taken by the wealthy, creating a feudal plutocracy.
@forexrobots212 Plus, there is the math there-- they are taxed at 23%, so even if they spend 100% of wthe money that was formerly pain in as corp./estate/capgains tax, the taxes brought in are only 23% of the amount brought in now-- so the 77% has to be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere is on the backs of themiddle classes. Don't take my word for it, read pages 30-on at tinyurl 593htl (the fairtaxorg/BHI "Households’ Well-Being under the FairTax") which shows $15k-$150k incomes losing.
@Diskatopia The way to make it up is to cut spending, including defense. The F22 Raptor costs more than it needs to because it has components made in 46 states. That's 92 senators who have an interest in keeping the program going. And the super wealthy already pay relatively little in taxes because their wealth is largely amassed and/or held in real estate. They are able to understate their on paper profit using depreciation.
@forexrobots212 We can cut spending on military now, or under any tax, that is not really relevant to FT/NASTI.
As for the wealthy paying little in taxes, the answer is to raise the low rates they face now (esp. the top capital gains rate), NOT to lower their effective tax rate, which, again, is what the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would do, while raising the rates of everyone making from about $15k-$150k a year (again, this is from supporters' own data).
@Diskatopia Cutting spending is relevant to a tax because that shows a change in tax systems does not have to be revenue neutral. And it doesn't matter how much tax rates for the wealthy are raised if they can lower their taxable income with depreciation.
@forexrobots212 That does not specifically support FT/NASTI, again, spending can be lowered under ANY tax syst., therefore why change to one that increases the taxes of the middleclasses (those making from $15k to $150k a year) while lowering fedtaxes of the wealthy?
Depreciation is a fixed quantity, and can't be added to without new purchases of /investment in depreciable goods/machinery/etc. used in business. Even if what you said where true, that is no reason to LOWER the wealthy's taxes.
@Diskatopia You are right that many people would be paying more than they are paying now, which is nothing. In fact, nearly half of all people don't pay taxes. If non-taxpayers are the majority, that is a recipe for disaster. As for the wealthy, they are currently not paying as much as you think they are because of things like depreciation, especially on real estate. A real estate investor can depreciate the building and fixtures over several years.
@forexrobots212 Everyone pays taxes,some just don't pay any fed. taxes because they make very little. They do get hit by state taxes, county taxes, fed. and state utility taxes, federal and state gas taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and many more. So there are no non-taxpayers-- anyone who buys gas or food or housing or etc. pays taxes.
The wealthy pay too little now, and they would pay even less under the FT/NASTI, while those barely getting by would pay more. THAT is a recipe for disaster.
@forexrobots212 Even if one accepts an alleged " 23%embedded tax" argument, the problem is is that that "cost" is paid from people's wages at different rates. One cannot say it is paid by the consumer at 23%, as the rates are different for each employee who had a part in making the item. The wages part of the cost of goods is what is paid by the consumer, and the employees pay taxes from the wages (at different rates-- this point is important). Think it through and you will see.
Also, that olde Libertarian greed plank, "Privatizing schools"(implying savings), would never save $, as most cities/counties spend less per student than tuition at private schools. The allegations Libertarians make that "competition" would lower the cost of private school tuition are false, because economics shows that non-retail near-monopolies (public education in this case) are cheaper than the thin cut pie(pop. of students) fractured into smaller pieces. Basically it is economy of scale.
@Diskatopia Private school tuition can be lowered if a source of income other than tuition were to be found. Most of the current lowest cost private schools are religious schools, as they receive a subsidy from the theological institution they are affiliated with. What is needed is to find a source of sponsorship for non-religious schools.
@forexrobots212 Sounds like the future of the original Rollerball films, where large coprorations control society. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater-- public schools can always be improved, but there is no reason to do away with them--private schools are often no better. It basically comes down to greed and not understanding on the part of the LP-- the "I ain't paying for nothing for anybody else", not understanding that we are all better off with education for all.
@Diskatopia I would not advocate just shutting down public schools right away. If low tuition private schools are created that are seen as attractive by enough parents, then public schools will start to close on their own due to small enrollments. If parents prefer to keep their children in public schools, then so be it.
User fees would not be voluntarty in that situation. It would hammer the poor while the rich skated. In the end, it would lead to a USA as portrayed in Soylent Green.
The olde LP platform was rewritten/toned-down for a reason--many people who read it were turned off to the LP. No one with common sense would call for letting nuke power biz decide their own safety regulations/police themselves, nor allow drug cos the same such. The olde platform trusted "the market" too much. Greed factor.
@Diskatopia I never saw Soylent Green. I only know the reference on the Simpsons. It does not benefit a nuclear power company to have its reactor melt down because it then becomes inoperable and they can't sell any power from it. And regulation is always subject to being corrupted. Many regulations are pushed by large corporations as a way to stifle competition. The large corporations often have exceptions for themselves written into the regulations.
@forexrobots212 History is full of examples of greed overriding sensibility when allowing companies to basically "self-regulate"-- Bhopal is just one of many examples. The situation with nuclear power is much worse-- not merely inability to sell power, but deaths and vast economic damage can result. It is important that an outside org with society's interests in mind and no profit-motive, to oversee potentially dangerous products and services.
@Diskatop Clearly we have a difference of opinion as to how much embedded taxes contribute to the price of an item. Actually, I think that the fairtax should only be a stopgap while we phase out social security and medicare, pay off debt, privatize schools and roads, and make the Defense Department self financing. Then the remainder of government expenses could be covered through voluntary user fees, or perhaps a lottery.
@jmkpns Yeah get more government involved. Since the government got involved in 60's heath costs have gone up. My parents remember a time you didn't need health care, because it wasn't so expensive. Now if you don't have it you could be looking at an amount of money that would bankrupt an average American without health care. Its the AMA, The government, and big health care corps that are the problem. They work together to screw you.
@asleeperj Yeah get more government involved as the Bush Administration did creating the Department of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. Oh no, Bush wasn't for big government was he!? Hell yeah he was.
@jmkpns How fun is it arguing with a Libertarian? I hated Bush. Horrible president. He expanded federal government far beyond anything we had see prior. Then there was Obama, who did the same. Clinton before Bush II, did the same, GHW before that, Reagan before that. Looks like your Bush argument fell upon Libertarian ears, and it fell silent. We are under a single party system, nothing else. Get used to it, or change it. OOPS!
@asleeperj You will want to try to get state accreditation boards to remove the caps they placed on the number of med schools they allow and the capacity at each school. These caps mean that there will be fewer doctors than there would otherwise be. If you want to reduce how much it costs to see a doctor, there needs to be more doctors.
@jmkpns I would have no problem with a public option as long as participation and payment were voluntary and private insurance was totally deregulated. That will not happen. Instead, healthy people will subsidize sick people, with no distinction between ailments that a person gets through no fault of their own and those that are self inflicted.
FairTax untaxes the poor completely. FairTax taxes consumption spending, It taxes all goods and services sold in the USA exactly once. With FairTax you decide when to pay your taxes because you decide when to consume. Under the current income tax system, the fruits of your labor are confiscated before you ever get to have them. The current tax system reminds me of slavery. FairTax only taxes luxury spending because all the taxes on necessities are exempted by the rebate in advance of that tax.
Another quote from Beacon Hill /SUPPORTERS' data: "If we group taxpayers by income per capita, the bottom five deciles lose under the FairTax." They try their best to fudge this data by claiming "but, under income mobility..." however, the problem with the fudging is that the "mobility" that provides the most benefit in their scenarios is one's income DROPPING into the poor range. As an example, they call dropping from say $30k to $10k an huge INCREASE in "utility" (basically quality of life).
This point is not debateable, as it is in SUPPORTERS' own research:
under the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI, those making from about $15k to $150k a year would pay MOREin federal taxes than they do now, and those making over $150k would pay less than they do now. Do we really want to RAISE THE TAXES of the middle classes so we can LOWER the already very low taxes of the wealthy? This tax is NASTI, and a very bad idea.
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
I like the idea, but still the people selling under the counter can cheat and not pay anything, so you need agents to police them. I support rather a wealth tax on real estate, you can't hide a house right? you can't send a house to tax heaven. I propose that everyone estimates themselves the value of their real estate and than pay taxes (so you have no administration costs). But if you estimate the value of your house too low the hgovernment may buy it from you paying that amount you indicated.
@ItchMyFoot I'll save you all an eye-bleedingly bad video. His whole video is based on misquoting A_Comparison_of_the_FairTax_Base_and_Rate.pdf
footnote 19 "The FairTax adopts a pre-payment approach to taxing government investment since much of the consumption generated by government investment would otherwise never be taxed." where does that say "wages" Mark? I gotta spam this to all your new posts now. you're like old dog pooping everywhere. It's kind of offensive.
@laudanum4u wrong you piece of shit -- Fairtax has repeatedly and emphatically said wages are taxed, although deep in their fine print. Got that moron. Fairtax is a massive tax on wages, pensions, and benefits. 300 billion dollar tax.
And that is just one of the goofy crappy insane things about Fairtax Farce.
@ItchMyFoot Where Mark? I don't see it. no one else sees it. you're just hoping folks won't check your facts. It's kind of sad. Really. but if this is how you go about dealing with your loss. I understand. Go ahead and fight this crusade of yours if it will help you cope. You'll be in my prayers.
More words from FT suporters' own research: "If we group taxpayers by income per capita, the bottom five deciles lose under the FairTax." They then try to fudge by grouping people by "spending per capita" and say that only the "top decile" loses in that case-- but then they admit "spending per capita exceeds income per capita for people in low‐income groups, vice versa for high‐income groups." So guess who loses again? Mids (making ~ $15k to $150k & senior citizens trying to enjoy their savings.
@Sanada8888 You are right about spending reform. The govt needs to spend only what it makes. But that is a different issue from tax reform. You can demand spending reform and support the fair tax. I do! The great thing about the fair tax is the govt would no longer be able to hide their spending in the form of "tax breaks". That's a big step to spending reform.
To your point on state sales tax, aren't you already double taxed since you purchase things with money that has already been taxed?
I supported the Fair Tax initiative UNTIL I realized that it involves paying 23% tax to the feds...THEN you still have to pay whatever sales tax you might have in the state, county and city (if any). For me that comes out to 32% so I would be saving a whopping 1%. There is a better way. It's called government SPENDING reform as well as tax reform, then there would not be the enormous amount required to keep this government running. Cut spending and have a lower tax requirement.
The "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" is a farce. It would RAISE the effective tax rate of the middle classes and lower their income and standard-of-living while LOWERING the effective tax rate of the wealthy and increasing their incomes in the double digits-- data showing this is from the SUPPORTERS' site, fairtax org, the Beacon Hill papers. It would shift the tax burden hugely onto the middle classes and pretty much destroy the economy overnight.
@FairTaxisaLie Please, have you read the book? If i can control how much I spend then how can it increase my taxes. Prebates eliminate the tax on the poor theory.
@trapp2357 The book is full of bad math and confusion-- have YOU read THE DATA supporters' paid for, their own data, at "fairtax" org? They admit that taxes on average WOULD GO UP for those making from about $10-15,000 to $150,000. Those making less than $10k would be better off (by a few hundred dollars) while those making more than $150k would pay massively lower taxes (thousands to millions of dollars less). AThe "Fair" aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" Tax would hammer the mids.
@FairTaxisaLie How is it bad math please enlighten me. where on their site does it say that? Hammer the mids? I make very little money, but I do understand that if I only get taxed on what I spend then I won't spend much. There is no "Hammer".
@trapp2357 Read the quote I have posted, from their site, from their own data and fan-touted research. They readily admit it increases the taxation of the middle classes.
Yes, it hammers the mids. What is the purpose of earning money if you can't ever spend it without paying MUCH higher taxes than now, while the wealthy pay much less than now? Their own data shows the quality of life of the wealthy increasing hugely(50% or mnore)under this NASTI tax, while the mids quality of life decreases.
@FairTaxisaLie I can see you are hopeless. I asked for where, no quotes. I asked for an example, none to give. I can see you are beyond hope. Any further comments will not be responded to. I thought you might be able to see the light, but obviously your happy in the dark.
@trapp2357 Yes, the richer one is, the more taxes he should pay-- they have the money to do it. What are you trying to prove-- that the middle classes should pay more in taxes than the rich, and have their quality of life decreased while that of the rich is raised? That is what the "Fair" tax aka National Sales Tax-INclusive aka NASTI would do. It is a trick concocted by very wealthy, very greedy men to try and lower their taxes even further than they are now.
@trapp2357 And the WHERE, as repeatedly stated, is in the BHI research they have on the wealthy supporters' OWN SITE, fairtax(insert dot HERE)org. You can believe whatever ytou want, but their own data shows that this NASTI tax would hammer the middle classes (so much so that in an effort to fudge it, they claim people have better quality of life when their incomes DROP from say $35k to $10k (Table 13).
@FairTaxisaLie your just confused on what the embedded means, and class warfare centered. I'm done now. (looked up the table, it was the cost of filing.)
@trapp2357 You need to catch up-- the "embedded taxes" falsehood was disproven years ago. Again, SALARIES are embedded in the price of things, and people pay income taxes from their SALARIES at different rates-- focus on that "different rates" and you may understand why income taxes can't be considered "embedded" (hint: are income taxes paid before or AFTER items are priced and sold?
PS--Hint2:capital gains taxes are paid AFTER profits are made, hence cannot be "embedded" in the price of goods.
@trapp2357 You looked on the wrong BHI/"Fairtaxorg" research paper, find the table 13 at tinyurl 593htl concerning "utility"/quality-of-life (notice particularly years 7 & 8 and 15 & 16), read up and you will understand how you have been bamboozled by Boortz and the wealthy backers..
"Fair" Tax aka NASTI= fail (and thankfully a dead issue in Congress since about 2008)
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
It's that time of the year again. Tax Time. We have got to get behind any politician who supports the FairTax. Passing the FairTax may turn out to be the greatest strike for American freedom since the Civil War.
Since the EFFECTIVE FEDERAL TAX RATE for the average American is 33% when you include the costs for compliance, income, social sucurity, medicare/medicaid, etc, would you rather pay 33% of everything you EARN or 23% of everything you buy? Can you see that even though you THINK essentials aren't taxed, since you ALREADY paid 33% of that $1 to take care of your taxes, you already paid tax on that $1 grocery item!
@brejanssen That is false. The 2007 effective total Federal tax rate of the bottom four quintiles is 4%-17%. The top 5%'s effective rate is 27.9%. Even allocating cloudy "costs of compliance", you can see that the "Fair"Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" would raise the taxes of the middle classes and lower the taxes of the wealthy. The data at fairtax org shows this. It is a trick created by very wealthy men to try and lower their own taxes more by shifting the burden to mids.
oh gawd. the fkn fair tax will give the goverment the right to tax us.. wtf!!? the only legal tax is impost and excise, taxes on items bought.. read artical 1
Beware of these names. They're all the same person, a FairTax spammer who doesn't work. Compare vocabulary and style. BullshipDetector, CanteenKid, FarceTax, FilmCriticOne, NawwLeans, MakeMyPower, MarkDouglasC, MathTruthTax, MyBookDeal, MyBookWork, NavyBeer, NeilTaxCon, PrebateNonsense, Taxfools, TaxSanity, TruthMattersToMe, TubeTaxPro, 12FlyMe, SteamBoatCamp, ItchMyFoot, RooferHoofer, MybookDeal, etc etc.
Beware of these names. They're all the same person, a FairTax spammer who doesn't work. Compare vocabulary and style. BullshipDetector, CanteenKid, FarceTax, FilmCriticOne, NawwLeans, MakeMyPower, MarkDouglasC, MathTruthTax, MyBookDeal, MyBookWork, NavyBeer, NeilTaxCon, PrebateNonsense, Taxfools, TaxSanity, TruthMattersToMe, TubeTaxPro, 12FlyMe, SteamBoatCamp, ItchMyFoot, RooferHoofer, MybookDeal, etc etc.
Fairtax would be great -- if city and state government will pay massive taxes to the federal government.
Fairtax plan is for city and state governments to pay a brand new, and huge, tax on all their spending. Including a tax on their payroll.
See Fairtax Answer Book, page 138. "Under our plan, all city and state government will pay the federal government taxes on all their spending, including spending for labor (wages)."
Where would city and state government GET the $?
What is the difference between you buying yourself a loaf of bread and your state buying one for you? Besides the fact that you pay the government to buy the loaf of bread, nothing. You consume it either way, and both you and the state currently pay the embedded cost of income capital gain, corporate income and other taxes.
Exempting government consumption will cause every one will ask the government to give them everything.
@dtvgmedia You are falling for the "embedded tax" canard-- counting the same moneys twice. People pay taxes from SALARY, you cannot pay them again at purchase.There really is no such thing as "embedded" federal taxes, there are embedded SALARIES in the cost of goods. From that SALARY the individual pays their own taxes at (note this, important) DIFFERENT RATES.
You are not paying twice. You buy an item, some of that money pays salaries, some of the salary amounts pay taxes. Not 23% either.
@FairTaxisaLie I think your confused. it would eliminate ALL taxes, not just income taxes. So any tax a company makes and passes on to the customer is embedded in to the price of that good. Take gasoline: every dollar spent in gas 45 cents (I think that's right) go to the taxes they have to pay. Who actually pays it...the customer. Not only do you pay sales taxes, you also pay the corporate taxes.
@trapp2357 No, you are confused. It does NOT replace "ALL taxes", and definitely not gasoline taxes-- it only would income, Social Security, Medicare, corporate, and estate taxes. Again, the "embedded (income) taxes" idea has been debunked, and even Boortz doesn't go around saying prices wil stay the same if one "keep's your whole paycheck" anymore. There are NOT 23%of embedded tax in everything-look at how that 23% was arrived at to understand this (hint--capital gains taxes emb in what?).
@dtvgmedia You are making the usual mistake fans of the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax -Inclusive aka NASTI make-- if people keep ALL of their paycheck (keeping the amounts currently deducted for SS and IncTax), the bussiness STILL has that as an expense. And you are forgetting that the 23% sales tax ADDS ON to each purchase by every business in the chain. Even "Fair" Tax org's research admits that prices would rise and those making from about $15k to $150k would pay MORE in taxes than now.
The poverty level poor will pay NO taxes. All the tax forms will disappear, and about $500 billion spent on overhead costs (compliance, filing) will bubble up free in the economy.
Check history ....The poor were taxed and taxed and in the end... Well!. We need taxes to run this great country, its a job, but When the country spend more than its worth it gets out of hand. Russia, France Italia (Romans). I support captalisum, its healthy, but the gread will distroy. I support a 10% tax across every American income.
Have you read their "research" ? Farce tax "research" BEGINS with the assumption Fairtax is a magic pony that shits gold, then tells how great it will be to have all that gold. They don't dare to any "real research," for the same reason their "calculator" does not ask a single question about your spending --- because THEY know its pure bullshit. That's right, Fairtax leaders KNOW their own plan is a farce, which is why they have avoided hearings under oath for 13 years.
@NawwLeans have you read the books, or just make it up as you go along? If you have read the books, instead of assuming what it is saying then you just forgot what the books said.
I saw a great ad for the Fair Tax and went to the website they advertised to sign the petition and donate towards the 30 minute show they are developing to show on national tv on July 4th. PassFairTax(dot)com
Yes -- please get Fairtax to be a proirity to Tea Party. Then have tea party PASS the Fairtax (the GOP sure as fuck won't). I would LOVE the tea party to pass Fairtax.
Then I want to watch you retards try to make cancer victims pay 100,000 in sales tax on their chemo and surgery. GO!! And I want to wach you retards try to make every city and state pay huge taxes on their spending. Be FUN FUN FUN
Our standard of living will increase with the FairTax, because our tax burden (per person) will drop, and because costs of production will drop. The tax burden will be thinned out because illegals and criminals will start paying, finally. Lower production costs will let companies lower prices while maintaining profit margin, because the tax code "compliance" cost will drop. This cost right now is about $900 per person per year. The poor will be "untaxed" without any lines to wait, too!
CanteenKid , all the same idiot. has a bunch of accounts to make it look like multiple people agree with him and just spams fair tax threads. He is a complete idiot, ignore him.
Fairtax would be great -- if city and state government will pay massive taxes to the federal government.
. See Fairtax Answer Book, page 138. "Under our plan, all city and state government will pay the federal government taxes on all their spending, including spending for labor (wages)."
But - how would city and state government GET the $. Also, why hide this in one sentence? This is 60% of the revenue!! Why hide that in one out of many thousands of sentences.? Why hide that??
@DWTaxService Sounds to me like that would be something the individual states and cities would have to determine. I'm sure screwed up states like CA and NY would continue to burden their citizens with some kind of state tax to fund their large state and local beuracracies. I believe TX (where I live) funds itself mostly with a state sales tax which would have to be on top of the Fair Tax, but then again, you're hitting them at the point of consumotion and not production.
Usual - fuck yes they will lobby -- and get -- exemptions. Cancer victims, for example, sure as fuck will get exemptions.
The Pentagon sure as fuck will get an exemption. Renters will get one. Cities won't have to pay this idiot sales tax (yes -- FT math is based on cities paying massive taxes).
Fairtax leaders KNOW it's pure bullshit, they KNOW these and other exemptions are inevitble. It's a farce, a hoax.
PowerPlantEngineer MathTruthTax FreeLunchTax SouthernFriedHoney FarceTax PeopleLieAboutTaxes 12FlyMe IowaSea CanteenKid Are all the same person spamming all the fair tax debates. Give them the thumbs down and maybe he will just stop. Just look for the same coarse language . farce, a hoax., bullshit, idiot, fuck, moron.
@PowerPlantEngineer No. In the bill is a super majority need to change it. Including exemptions. Cancer victims don't get a tax break now. If they work they still pay SS, MC, Pay Roll, capital gains, death, gift, and inheritance taxes. Also the taxes the doctors pay are also incorporated in the final cost of the medical treatment. You seem to not have an understanding of economics.
Sleeper dumb fuck -- I know a kid dying of cancer right now Guess what retard? She doesnt pay capital gains. SHe doesn't pay FICA. She has a shunt in her brain to drain the fluid until the tumor kills her. Got that? She is 11 years old.
Fairtax math is based on EVERYONE paying that tax on EVERY DIME of cancer care, ect.
See dumb fuck -- it can not be paid -- its a farce/
@LiarBoortz Her doctors do, they pay pay roll for nurses. You are narrow minded, and cannot see the embedded tax implication of even the simplest things.
Aleep dumb fuck - the nurses will have to pay SALES taxes under FT dumb fuck, their taxes wont go down you idiot fuck head.
But the basic problem w/FT -- its bullshit. It's leaders KNOW it's bullshit. Their math "adds up" only if they can TAX the government about 1 trillion dollars. That's right -- they have the GOVERMENT becoming the BIGGEST taxpayer.
Its fucking insane, and they are NOT trying to pass it/
@PowerPlantEngineer You don't know how our current tax structure works. "the government is taxed 1 trillion dollars" You prove your ignorance. The government, like all other players in the market has to also account for the fair tax; therefore, it is simply budgeted in. Don't forget the government taxes it's employee's income, which is a direct tax upon itself. = ) Good try though.
@UsualMike requires a super majority to pass. The fair tax is delicate! Once passed the people HAVE to keep an eye out for lobbyists. Not to say they do now. It's a great many a problem we have that are caused by Americans sleeping too much, and not paying attention.
@asleeperj too many people alseep? You dumb fuck -- you are in acoma you are so fucking stupid. Fairtax is total insane bullshit, they are NOT trying to pass it, and you don't even have a clue what the plan IS.
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Fairtax wont eliminate anything -- its a hoax, a farce. Its a farce because it's own leaders know its pure bullshit, and they aren't even trying to pass it.
Why do you think in 13 years NO corporation or business is for this farce? It would get rid of ALL their taxes, but they arent for it? Why?
Here is why -- its a joke, a farce, and Fairtax KNOWS it.
Sure it sounds great -- but its magical bullshit. They pretend to be able to tax the government for almost 2 trillion every year.
The Fair Tax would eliminate federal taxes on income, gifts, estates, capital gains, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment and the alternative minimum tax. It would include a prebate to low-income people on the FairTax they pay up to the federal poverty level.
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@johnreed81 The Fairtax won't eliminate shit, because it's a farce.
Don't get me wrong -- I'd love this piece of shit farce to pass. But sadly it's own leader know its fucking bullshit. They know you can't tax the government to get money for the government.
But they also know stupid people like you believe any crap they sell if they make it sound magic and let you blame a boogieman for stopping it.
It's nonsene.
Giving stupid people big lie -- like FT -- is Hitler Tenet
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A National Sales tax to replace all other federal taxes would be 60-90% dumb fuck.
The 23-30% is fucking nonsense -- and even that would be insane. How the fuck will people pay 30% sales tax on their rent, their car insurance, their food? And it won't fucking be 30% anyway -- it would be 90%.
Read the Joint Committee on Taxation report for President Bush, 2005.
@12FlyMe Your an idiot. It's a RETAIL SALES TAX. NOT an insurance tax, not a rent tax. RETAIL, on all NEW goods and services.
Futhermore, Those in which you mentioned already have whats call an inclusive tax. You pay that persons property tax, income tax, gift tax, capital gains tax, Those would be incorporated into your rent. you do not under stand economics.
Attend a TEA party wearing FairTax garb, waving FairTax signs, and handing out FairTax info cards or papers. Some Tea parties give or rent space for booths for conservative causes. I helped at a booth in Richmond a couple weeks ago, and one in Chesapeake a few weeks before that. With the current tea parties, there should be plenty of opportunitites to advertise the FairTax.
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Dumb fuck I was FOR the fairtax long before the book. And of course I read both those pieces of shit, and the web sites.
Its TOTAL garbage you fucking idiot. Read the fucking book your fucking self. Read page 148 for example, retard -- what the fuck engages you fucking mindwhen you read you gulllible moron.
Do you fucking really think the governmetn will be the biggest taxpayer to government?
Do you have enough brains to wonder why the fuck corporations and business are against this BS?
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Any retard who believes the federal government can write itself trillions in sales tax is just dumb.
In fact Fairtax own supporters who are econmist freely admit the FEDERAL government can not possibly pay itself taxes. It wont matter if it writes a check -- it won't create any income.
They do claim cities and states could pay this massive tax --- but here is a fuching clue: Fairtax is hiding these taxes on government in fine print. No city or state knows.
@CanteenKid The government doesn't write it's self money. It simply competes at the regular price eliminating it's own favoritism.
This is an easy to understand concept. If the government got the 23 percent tax off, as in not on the books, than it would have an unfair advantage. I don't understand why people find it so hard to understand that. Then again you are government educated, so i cannot blame you completely.
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Some retard wrote me and said that because the Federal government pays embedded taxes now, its fine and logical that it pays itself massive sales taxes after Fairtax passes.
No dumb fuch -- its not fine. If the government writes itself checks for over a trillion dollars -- thats called a bail out. Your goofy Fairtax shit is just that -- trillions of dollars each year in phantom bail outs.
When the government writes itself a check - it does not get any spendable money dumb fuch.
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Didnt read the bill -- what part of BULLSHIT don't you fucking get?
What part of no hearings under oath dont you get?
What part of Fairtax pretends to tax the government -- and hides this shit -- -don't you grasp.
Suppose I told your dumb ass all we have to do, is fucking tax the fucking government? Cause that's really what Fairtax is -- most of the money would come from this magic tax on government -- not people.
Thats how fucked FT is -- its pure fucking nonsense.
Mr. Speaker, in 1848, Karl Marx said, a progressive income tax is needed to transfer wealth and power to the state. Thus, Marx's Communist Manifesto had as its major economic tenet a progressive income tax. Think about it, 1848 Karl Marx, Communism.... I say it is time to replace the progressive income tax with a national retail sales tax, and it is time to abolish the IRS, my colleagues.----James A. Traficant
It's a shame people on here would rather criticize the fairtax than read their website or the book! I guess they love the government taking their hard earned money.
EVERYONE! The truth is, that we all pay the taxes now! They are all hidden in the products we consume anyway and along with that, they have the power to tax us 100% now!
The Fair Tax is a simple way that takes that power out of their hands and it also makes the taxes VISIBLE to us for the first time!
Why would we not want the Fair Tax! It is simple, fair, and transparent!
Plus -- Boortz admits not only that this dumb ass plan is based on taxing the government for most of its own income -- he also says in fine print that everyone would have to donate back to their employer all the money they "save" from no taxes taken out on paycheck.
Thats right. According to Boortz himself -- we ALL have to donate all the taxes we used to pay, back to our employer -- for the math to work.
Its really crazy shit when you find out the dumb ass real plan.
as a small business owner, I wonder if I buy a product which is much more expensive now (due to the tax) so I raise it even more to make up for the difference in my profit I then have the consumer pay for it at an even higher rate then the wholesale I got for it. then the consumer is really screwed..example the cigarettes cost about 5.50 in my state but only cost 3.70 in another state due to our state taxes, imagine if it was milk or gas that might be to much for the poorer people to handle
DISCLAIMER FOR THOSE SERIOUS ABOUT DISCUSSING THE FAIRTAX: Sincere, intellectually honest debate is ALWAYS welcome, but ignore the person known as 12FlyMe/NawwLeans/Bullship Detector, etc. He continually posts a rash of lies, slanders, name-calling, and general nonsense, and has no interest in honest debate on HR25. Despite multitudes of facts and rational arguments presented in response to his rants, he continues undeterred in his campaign of misinformation. Pay no attention to him.
I want the Fairtax you idiot. I would LOVE to see this full of shit plan pass. Its such a crock.
I would love to see the bullshit pass, so you morons who ate this farce up, can learn. Its pure bullshit -- its not hard to spot the bullshit. Its a lie.
You cant fuching put a fugging sales tax ON the government you idiot, and count that as income. But thats what these liars are doing.
The only people who wouldn't want the FairTax to pass are special interest groups who lobby Congress for tax breaks, politicians who will see their favorite "vote-for-me" arguement evaporate or liberals who are scared that they may have to take responsibility for themselves instead of being dependent on the government. So tell us, Mark, which are you?
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Yes I read the book -- four times,
I also read Boortz "clarifications" where he admits you don't take home a dime more - you are supposed to DONATE -- thats right DONATE -- the money you now pay in taxes, to your employer. That way your employer can lower prices.
Dont get me wrong -- I want the Fairtax to pass. Its such wonderful bullshit.
And if you pass this farce -- it would be fun to watch you explain how the government can pay a trillion in sales taxes to itself -- and count that as income.
Fun -- to watch you tell nursing home paitents with limited income, they owe 10-20K in sales tax.
Fun -- to watch you tell the parents of a child with luekemia they owe 50K in sales taxes.
Sounds like Mark and Bullshipdetector haven't a CLUE how FairTax works. Either you haven't read the book OR you don't have enough of a grasp on the economic principles to understand why this will work without a hitch.
BTW,....the "cancer victim" will not see his/her bill increase a penny under FairTax so stop with the emotional BS.
Yes our tax code sucks. We need a simple and fair, understandable code. But the Fairtax isn't it. In fact, its pure bullship. Its literally a farce. One example -- it pretends all government levels -- city, state, federal, will pay the US treasury huge sales taxes -- on everything from new highways, to the Shuttle, to nuke subs. Poppycock -- where will all these governments GET huge money to pay these taxes. Plus, how will cancer victims pay 50K or more in sales tax? Its nonsense.
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We can and should make a very simple tax code. Fairtax isnt it -- fairtax is literally a farce. But we can have a one or two page tax form, easily. Just tax all income TYPES the same - quit screwing work. Call income "income" earned income or unearned.
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COmplete free ride my arse! If you rent, you will pay the world's highest sales tax on your rent. Its the worlds highest sales tax on CANCER surgery -- nursing home care -- dental bills --even car insurance. The prebate is 200 a month - but that doesnt touch 50,000 in sales tax on cancer surgery and chemo. Fairtax is literally a farce, not sort of.
Actually, as part of the Fair Tax package, the Federal Government would send out a monthly prebate to every head of household. This prebate would cover all tax expenses up to the poverty line. So, lower income workers essentially get a completely free ride under the Fair Tax plan. Some might even come out ahead.
My question to this approach is; Who and How do we clarify our Income to be able to receive those rebates? And as such, this 'tracking' could lead to later abuses of information given to the government. Not that they might not have it now, but I would suggest grocery stores are simply allowed to maintain the current system - no taxation on basic food items. Much easier and just as fair to all. The Fat Cats would still pay tax on their High-End dining out experiences.
To see another TABLE from American's for Fair Taxation's research which gives away what the Fair Tax really is (a plan to make the middleclasses work more to have the same standard of living as now, while the wealthy get much wealthier under it), see TABLE 5 page 26 at tinyurl 593htl. Notice which income groups labor supply increases the most ($0-$149k) and which grps real wages increase the most (more than $150k, up 48%). Notice how the $50k group works 10.3% more for a wage increase of 1.5%.
1969was1969 2 months ago
There really is no debate, as Americans For Fair Taxation's OWN RESEARCH shows this fact: the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the effective taxes (i.e. raise the amount of taxes they pay) of those making from around $15,000 to $150,000 ,and would on average lower the taxes paid by those who make more than $150,000 a year. It is a very bad idea, and would destroy the US economy if enacted. Thankfully it never will even be considered for a vote.
Diskatopia 3 months ago 5
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The "Fair Tax" was a scheme created by the Church of Scientology as revenge on the IRS for being denied a tax-free status as a church for decades.
People who propose a "Fair tax" are pushing a nation-wrecking scam created by a cult.
MiHiVidz 3 months ago
why does not 1 state try fair tax?
bootiack 3 months ago
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This point is not debateable, as it is in SUPPORTERS' own research:
under the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI, those making from about $15k to $150k a year would pay MOREin federal taxes than they do now, and those making over $150k would pay less than they do now. Do we really want to RAISE THE TAXES of the middle classes so we can LOWER the already very low taxes of the wealthy? This tax is NASTI, and a very bad idea.
Diskatop 4 months ago
not true @forexrobots212, bexcause of the monthly pre-bate in the Fair Tax, and the Fair Tax de-taxing all used sec ond-hand items, it would benefit the poor, and because the rich also buy luxury items (the prebate only de-taxes items up to the poverty level, so currently, I would get somewhere near 180-190/month in pre-bate under the Fair Tax, as an individual) it would actually soak the rich. A bunch of different individuals created this thing called the Fair Tax.
garygee34 4 months ago
For proof that the "Fair Tax" aka National Sales Tax Inclusive aka NASTI would raise the taxes of those making from about $15k to $150k a year while greatly lowering the taxes of most who make from around $150k up, one only needs to read and understand pages 30 on of one of fairtaxorg's own "research" at tinyurl 593htl. Pay particular attention to table 13-- this is how they claim the middleclass is better off under FT/NASTI, by them FALLING INTO POVERTY LEVEL every few years (see years 7-8).
FairTaxisaLie 6 months ago
Fix the US economy by putting Bill Clinton back in the white house. Man I remember the 90's!!
jmkpns 7 months ago
For those still believing the "23% embedded" canard, which has been shown repeatedly to be false, here is one example why--
BobBoltCompany-- employees, Bob& Fred. Bob's eff.federal tax is at 23-30%, Fred's at 0%. What happens under FT if everyone every company keeps "whole wages"? Cost of goods(bolt, say) stays same as now... but retail prices have 30% FT added.
Fred has 0% more money & a "prebate" that offsets only part of inc., and thus pays 30% tax on rest. Bob=even or better off.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia
While employees keep 100% of their wages, but removing business taxes from the last step in the production chain saves the end consumer ~ 15%.
Removing it from the last 2 saves consumer ~ 20%.
Removing it from the last 3 saves consumer ~ 21.66%.
Removing it from the last 4 saves consumer ~ 22.22%.
Removing it from the last 5 saves consumer ~ 22.46%.
Removing the taxes in all businesses saves consumers about 22.5%, & we haven't discussed savings from reduced tax code complexity.
dtvgmedia 2 days ago
The "Fair" Tax aka national Sales Tax- Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the federal taxes of those making from $15k-$150k a year while lowering the fed taxes of those making over $150k a year. This is not debateable, it is from supporters' own site and "research".
How do they claim the middle classes will still be better off, then? By asserting that if one's income drops from $35k to $10k a year, one is better off. Does any sensible person think that way? tinyurl 593htl, table 13.
FairTaxisaLie 7 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie Any person who so desires can reduce his taxes by buying less stuff or by buying things that are not taxed, such as used items. A person can buy second-hand clothing, furniture, etc., and not pay any taxes on it. He only has to buy food new, and as long as he keeps the taxes on his food purchases below his prebate, he does not pay taxes on that either.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 ... unless he pays rent (taxed 23%i/30%e), uses electricity(taxed), gas (taxed), car insurance(taxed), car tags (taxed),cellphone(taxed), internet connection (taxed), cable tv(taxed), medical bills/insurance(taxed), piano lessons(taxed), hires a lawyer(taxed), etc ad nauseum(taxed).
What is the purpose of earning money if one can't enjoy the fruits of one's labor without a massive tax increase (again, the "Fair" Tax aka NASTI would on average raise taxes on the middleclasses)?
Diskatop 7 months ago
@Diskatop I'd be curious to know how NASTI calculates the baseline. If they only count personal income tax, then the baseline would be lower. They need to also include Social Security and Medicare taxes (both employee and employer contributions) as well as embedded taxes in the prices of items. This includes the cost to the manufactures and retailer to comply with the tax code, a cost that gets passed on to the consumer.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 They (fairtaxorg/BHI) likely include all that and more, since they are trying to their best to make it support the "Fair" Tax AKA National Sales Tax-Inclusive AKA NASTI. If they use governmental figures for effective federal tax rates it includes income tax, SS&medicare (both employee and prorated employer), prorated Estate taxes, Import duties, corporate taxes, etc.They don't want to have to say it raises midclasses taxes, but they do (hidden deep in their "research"). (Cont
Diskatop 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 (continued) any alleged "Embedded"taxes (city, state), which are very minor part of the costs of goods or in the price of items in most cases, & any minor "compliance" accntng costs that would be removed by an FT/NASTI replacing the current, would likely not be counted, as they are not paid by individuals' taxes and/or are minimal, and would likely be offset by the fact that costs NOT passed on to consumer prices (corporate taxes and estate taxes in particular) ARE included.
Diskatop 7 months ago
@Diskatop Clearly we have a difference of opinion as to how much embedded taxes contribute to the price of an item. Actually, I think that the fairtax should only be a stopgap while we phase out social security and medicare, pay off debt, privatize schools and roads, and make the Defense Department self financing. Then the remainder of government expenses could be covered through voluntary user fees, or perhaps a lottery.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 Well, we know factually that neither corporate nor estate taxes are "embedded" in the price of anything. And as for income tax and SS/Medicare, thoseis embedded in wages, not cost of goods, as it cannot easily be separated out as a cost of goods sold before taxes, only after.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia Cost of compliance is an administrative cost that gets passed on to consumers. It would not be figured into cost of goods sold because it is an admin cost. It is not a cost directly related to acquisition of raw materials or manufacturing.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 My point is that any alleged savings from less "compliance costs" in prices on the one hand are offset by the fact that, since the tax has to be revenue neutral, it has to collect enough to also cover corp., estate, and capital gains taxes, none of which are currently in the price of goods. Essentially any cost savings from no "compliance costs" is offset (or more than offset) by the capgains/estate/corp part of the 23%/30% (i.e.,part of the 23% is replacing taxes not in prices).
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia Without corporate taxes the company owners and shareholders keep more of the profits or dividends. Those get spent and a sales tax is paid. An heir who goes on a shopping spree would also pay a sales tax. Actually, there are currently tricks that billionaires can use to pass their fortunes to their heirs while circumventing the estate tax.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 You have now hit on another data tricks supporters' use to try and make the FT/NASTI look good-- claiming the economy will be raised due to invesytment... but the problems are that that investment is mainly by the wealthy using money that they would have paid in taxes under the system now, but that they get as income tax-free under FT/NASTI, then buying stocks&real estate tax-free. The result? More & more ownership of the nation taken by the wealthy, creating a feudal plutocracy.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 Plus, there is the math there-- they are taxed at 23%, so even if they spend 100% of wthe money that was formerly pain in as corp./estate/capgains tax, the taxes brought in are only 23% of the amount brought in now-- so the 77% has to be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere is on the backs of themiddle classes. Don't take my word for it, read pages 30-on at tinyurl 593htl (the fairtaxorg/BHI "Households’ Well-Being under the FairTax") which shows $15k-$150k incomes losing.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia The way to make it up is to cut spending, including defense. The F22 Raptor costs more than it needs to because it has components made in 46 states. That's 92 senators who have an interest in keeping the program going. And the super wealthy already pay relatively little in taxes because their wealth is largely amassed and/or held in real estate. They are able to understate their on paper profit using depreciation.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 We can cut spending on military now, or under any tax, that is not really relevant to FT/NASTI.
As for the wealthy paying little in taxes, the answer is to raise the low rates they face now (esp. the top capital gains rate), NOT to lower their effective tax rate, which, again, is what the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would do, while raising the rates of everyone making from about $15k-$150k a year (again, this is from supporters' own data).
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia Cutting spending is relevant to a tax because that shows a change in tax systems does not have to be revenue neutral. And it doesn't matter how much tax rates for the wealthy are raised if they can lower their taxable income with depreciation.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 That does not specifically support FT/NASTI, again, spending can be lowered under ANY tax syst., therefore why change to one that increases the taxes of the middleclasses (those making from $15k to $150k a year) while lowering fedtaxes of the wealthy?
Depreciation is a fixed quantity, and can't be added to without new purchases of /investment in depreciable goods/machinery/etc. used in business. Even if what you said where true, that is no reason to LOWER the wealthy's taxes.
Diskatopia 6 months ago 2
@Diskatopia You are right that many people would be paying more than they are paying now, which is nothing. In fact, nearly half of all people don't pay taxes. If non-taxpayers are the majority, that is a recipe for disaster. As for the wealthy, they are currently not paying as much as you think they are because of things like depreciation, especially on real estate. A real estate investor can depreciate the building and fixtures over several years.
forexrobots212 6 months ago
@forexrobots212 Everyone pays taxes,some just don't pay any fed. taxes because they make very little. They do get hit by state taxes, county taxes, fed. and state utility taxes, federal and state gas taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and many more. So there are no non-taxpayers-- anyone who buys gas or food or housing or etc. pays taxes.
The wealthy pay too little now, and they would pay even less under the FT/NASTI, while those barely getting by would pay more. THAT is a recipe for disaster.
Diskatopia 6 months ago 4
@forexrobots212 Even if one accepts an alleged " 23%embedded tax" argument, the problem is is that that "cost" is paid from people's wages at different rates. One cannot say it is paid by the consumer at 23%, as the rates are different for each employee who had a part in making the item. The wages part of the cost of goods is what is paid by the consumer, and the employees pay taxes from the wages (at different rates-- this point is important). Think it through and you will see.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
Also, that olde Libertarian greed plank, "Privatizing schools"(implying savings), would never save $, as most cities/counties spend less per student than tuition at private schools. The allegations Libertarians make that "competition" would lower the cost of private school tuition are false, because economics shows that non-retail near-monopolies (public education in this case) are cheaper than the thin cut pie(pop. of students) fractured into smaller pieces. Basically it is economy of scale.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia Private school tuition can be lowered if a source of income other than tuition were to be found. Most of the current lowest cost private schools are religious schools, as they receive a subsidy from the theological institution they are affiliated with. What is needed is to find a source of sponsorship for non-religious schools.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 Sounds like the future of the original Rollerball films, where large coprorations control society. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater-- public schools can always be improved, but there is no reason to do away with them--private schools are often no better. It basically comes down to greed and not understanding on the part of the LP-- the "I ain't paying for nothing for anybody else", not understanding that we are all better off with education for all.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia I would not advocate just shutting down public schools right away. If low tuition private schools are created that are seen as attractive by enough parents, then public schools will start to close on their own due to small enrollments. If parents prefer to keep their children in public schools, then so be it.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
User fees would not be voluntarty in that situation. It would hammer the poor while the rich skated. In the end, it would lead to a USA as portrayed in Soylent Green.
The olde LP platform was rewritten/toned-down for a reason--many people who read it were turned off to the LP. No one with common sense would call for letting nuke power biz decide their own safety regulations/police themselves, nor allow drug cos the same such. The olde platform trusted "the market" too much. Greed factor.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia I never saw Soylent Green. I only know the reference on the Simpsons. It does not benefit a nuclear power company to have its reactor melt down because it then becomes inoperable and they can't sell any power from it. And regulation is always subject to being corrupted. Many regulations are pushed by large corporations as a way to stifle competition. The large corporations often have exceptions for themselves written into the regulations.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@forexrobots212 History is full of examples of greed overriding sensibility when allowing companies to basically "self-regulate"-- Bhopal is just one of many examples. The situation with nuclear power is much worse-- not merely inability to sell power, but deaths and vast economic damage can result. It is important that an outside org with society's interests in mind and no profit-motive, to oversee potentially dangerous products and services.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
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@Diskatop Clearly we have a difference of opinion as to how much embedded taxes contribute to the price of an item. Actually, I think that the fairtax should only be a stopgap while we phase out social security and medicare, pay off debt, privatize schools and roads, and make the Defense Department self financing. Then the remainder of government expenses could be covered through voluntary user fees, or perhaps a lottery.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
Improve Healthcare: Public Option Now.
jmkpns 7 months ago
@jmkpns Yeah get more government involved. Since the government got involved in 60's heath costs have gone up. My parents remember a time you didn't need health care, because it wasn't so expensive. Now if you don't have it you could be looking at an amount of money that would bankrupt an average American without health care. Its the AMA, The government, and big health care corps that are the problem. They work together to screw you.
asleeperj 7 months ago
@asleeperj Yeah get more government involved as the Bush Administration did creating the Department of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. Oh no, Bush wasn't for big government was he!? Hell yeah he was.
jmkpns 7 months ago
@jmkpns How fun is it arguing with a Libertarian? I hated Bush. Horrible president. He expanded federal government far beyond anything we had see prior. Then there was Obama, who did the same. Clinton before Bush II, did the same, GHW before that, Reagan before that. Looks like your Bush argument fell upon Libertarian ears, and it fell silent. We are under a single party system, nothing else. Get used to it, or change it. OOPS!
asleeperj 7 months ago
@asleeperj You will want to try to get state accreditation boards to remove the caps they placed on the number of med schools they allow and the capacity at each school. These caps mean that there will be fewer doctors than there would otherwise be. If you want to reduce how much it costs to see a doctor, there needs to be more doctors.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
@jmkpns I would have no problem with a public option as long as participation and payment were voluntary and private insurance was totally deregulated. That will not happen. Instead, healthy people will subsidize sick people, with no distinction between ailments that a person gets through no fault of their own and those that are self inflicted.
forexrobots212 7 months ago
FairTax untaxes the poor completely. FairTax taxes consumption spending, It taxes all goods and services sold in the USA exactly once. With FairTax you decide when to pay your taxes because you decide when to consume. Under the current income tax system, the fruits of your labor are confiscated before you ever get to have them. The current tax system reminds me of slavery. FairTax only taxes luxury spending because all the taxes on necessities are exempted by the rebate in advance of that tax.
pdwheaton 7 months ago
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Another quote from Beacon Hill /SUPPORTERS' data: "If we group taxpayers by income per capita, the bottom five deciles lose under the FairTax." They try their best to fudge this data by claiming "but, under income mobility..." however, the problem with the fudging is that the "mobility" that provides the most benefit in their scenarios is one's income DROPPING into the poor range. As an example, they call dropping from say $30k to $10k an huge INCREASE in "utility" (basically quality of life).
Diskatop 7 months ago
This point is not debateable, as it is in SUPPORTERS' own research:
under the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI, those making from about $15k to $150k a year would pay MOREin federal taxes than they do now, and those making over $150k would pay less than they do now. Do we really want to RAISE THE TAXES of the middle classes so we can LOWER the already very low taxes of the wealthy? This tax is NASTI, and a very bad idea.
Diskatop 7 months ago
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From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
Diskatop 7 months ago
I like the idea, but still the people selling under the counter can cheat and not pay anything, so you need agents to police them. I support rather a wealth tax on real estate, you can't hide a house right? you can't send a house to tax heaven. I propose that everyone estimates themselves the value of their real estate and than pay taxes (so you have no administration costs). But if you estimate the value of your house too low the hgovernment may buy it from you paying that amount you indicated.
mindOFAlibertarian 7 months ago
Fairtax is total crap, google Fairtax fine print.
I have YOutube videos now, showing their shit.
I used to support Fairtax -- till I read the footnotes and fineprint.
ItchMyFoot 8 months ago
@ItchMyFoot I'll save you all an eye-bleedingly bad video. His whole video is based on misquoting A_Comparison_of_the_FairTax_Base_and_Rate.pdf
footnote 19 "The FairTax adopts a pre-payment approach to taxing government investment since much of the consumption generated by government investment would otherwise never be taxed." where does that say "wages" Mark? I gotta spam this to all your new posts now. you're like old dog pooping everywhere. It's kind of offensive.
laudanum4u 7 months ago
@laudanum4u wrong you piece of shit -- Fairtax has repeatedly and emphatically said wages are taxed, although deep in their fine print. Got that moron. Fairtax is a massive tax on wages, pensions, and benefits. 300 billion dollar tax.
And that is just one of the goofy crappy insane things about Fairtax Farce.
ItchMyFoot 7 months ago
@ItchMyFoot Where Mark? I don't see it. no one else sees it. you're just hoping folks won't check your facts. It's kind of sad. Really. but if this is how you go about dealing with your loss. I understand. Go ahead and fight this crusade of yours if it will help you cope. You'll be in my prayers.
laudanum4u 7 months ago
More words from FT suporters' own research: "If we group taxpayers by income per capita, the bottom five deciles lose under the FairTax." They then try to fudge by grouping people by "spending per capita" and say that only the "top decile" loses in that case-- but then they admit "spending per capita exceeds income per capita for people in low‐income groups, vice versa for high‐income groups." So guess who loses again? Mids (making ~ $15k to $150k & senior citizens trying to enjoy their savings.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@anaquarian1 Read the book then comment with an informed response.
trapp2357 8 months ago
@anaquarian1 do you understand the fairtax or just oppose it?
trapp2357 8 months ago
@Sanada8888 You are right about spending reform. The govt needs to spend only what it makes. But that is a different issue from tax reform. You can demand spending reform and support the fair tax. I do! The great thing about the fair tax is the govt would no longer be able to hide their spending in the form of "tax breaks". That's a big step to spending reform.
To your point on state sales tax, aren't you already double taxed since you purchase things with money that has already been taxed?
hrsweat0097 8 months ago
I supported the Fair Tax initiative UNTIL I realized that it involves paying 23% tax to the feds...THEN you still have to pay whatever sales tax you might have in the state, county and city (if any). For me that comes out to 32% so I would be saving a whopping 1%. There is a better way. It's called government SPENDING reform as well as tax reform, then there would not be the enormous amount required to keep this government running. Cut spending and have a lower tax requirement.
Sananda8888 8 months ago
The "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" is a farce. It would RAISE the effective tax rate of the middle classes and lower their income and standard-of-living while LOWERING the effective tax rate of the wealthy and increasing their incomes in the double digits-- data showing this is from the SUPPORTERS' site, fairtax org, the Beacon Hill papers. It would shift the tax burden hugely onto the middle classes and pretty much destroy the economy overnight.
"Fair" Tax = Fail.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie Please, have you read the book? If i can control how much I spend then how can it increase my taxes. Prebates eliminate the tax on the poor theory.
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 The book is full of bad math and confusion-- have YOU read THE DATA supporters' paid for, their own data, at "fairtax" org? They admit that taxes on average WOULD GO UP for those making from about $10-15,000 to $150,000. Those making less than $10k would be better off (by a few hundred dollars) while those making more than $150k would pay massively lower taxes (thousands to millions of dollars less). AThe "Fair" aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" Tax would hammer the mids.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie How is it bad math please enlighten me. where on their site does it say that? Hammer the mids? I make very little money, but I do understand that if I only get taxed on what I spend then I won't spend much. There is no "Hammer".
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 Read the quote I have posted, from their site, from their own data and fan-touted research. They readily admit it increases the taxation of the middle classes.
Yes, it hammers the mids. What is the purpose of earning money if you can't ever spend it without paying MUCH higher taxes than now, while the wealthy pay much less than now? Their own data shows the quality of life of the wealthy increasing hugely(50% or mnore)under this NASTI tax, while the mids quality of life decreases.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie I can see you are hopeless. I asked for where, no quotes. I asked for an example, none to give. I can see you are beyond hope. Any further comments will not be responded to. I thought you might be able to see the light, but obviously your happy in the dark.
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 Clearly you want to stay confused, and refuse to look at THEIR OWN research.
Simple example:
Employee A makes salary $50k a year, pays 0% eff. income taxes/ss-- embedded salary, $50k, supposed embedded taxes $0.
Employee B makes $200k a year and pays 25% eff income taxes/ss- embedded salary 200k, supposed emb. taxes $50k
Owner makes $1million a year.-- pays 30% eff.inc.taxes-- embedded salary $1million, supposed emb. taxes $300k.
SALARIES are what are "embedded".
"Fair"tax=FAIL
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie What was that supposed to prove? Your saying the richer you the more in taxes you should pay?
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 Yes, the richer one is, the more taxes he should pay-- they have the money to do it. What are you trying to prove-- that the middle classes should pay more in taxes than the rich, and have their quality of life decreased while that of the rich is raised? That is what the "Fair" tax aka National Sales Tax-INclusive aka NASTI would do. It is a trick concocted by very wealthy, very greedy men to try and lower their taxes even further than they are now.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@trapp2357 And the WHERE, as repeatedly stated, is in the BHI research they have on the wealthy supporters' OWN SITE, fairtax(insert dot HERE)org. You can believe whatever ytou want, but their own data shows that this NASTI tax would hammer the middle classes (so much so that in an effort to fudge it, they claim people have better quality of life when their incomes DROP from say $35k to $10k (Table 13).
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie your just confused on what the embedded means, and class warfare centered. I'm done now. (looked up the table, it was the cost of filing.)
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 You need to catch up-- the "embedded taxes" falsehood was disproven years ago. Again, SALARIES are embedded in the price of things, and people pay income taxes from their SALARIES at different rates-- focus on that "different rates" and you may understand why income taxes can't be considered "embedded" (hint: are income taxes paid before or AFTER items are priced and sold?
PS--Hint2:capital gains taxes are paid AFTER profits are made, hence cannot be "embedded" in the price of goods.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@trapp2357 You looked on the wrong BHI/"Fairtaxorg" research paper, find the table 13 at tinyurl 593htl concerning "utility"/quality-of-life (notice particularly years 7 & 8 and 15 & 16), read up and you will understand how you have been bamboozled by Boortz and the wealthy backers..
"Fair" Tax aka NASTI= fail (and thankfully a dead issue in Congress since about 2008)
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie Use real numbers in an example and if you can make it makes sense, with no flaw then I'll concede the point.
trapp2357 8 months ago
It's that time of the year again. Tax Time. We have got to get behind any politician who supports the FairTax. Passing the FairTax may turn out to be the greatest strike for American freedom since the Civil War.
graydog2426 9 months ago
Fairtax is total farce.
12FlyMe 10 months ago 2
Since the EFFECTIVE FEDERAL TAX RATE for the average American is 33% when you include the costs for compliance, income, social sucurity, medicare/medicaid, etc, would you rather pay 33% of everything you EARN or 23% of everything you buy? Can you see that even though you THINK essentials aren't taxed, since you ALREADY paid 33% of that $1 to take care of your taxes, you already paid tax on that $1 grocery item!
brejanssen 11 months ago
@brejanssen That is false. The 2007 effective total Federal tax rate of the bottom four quintiles is 4%-17%. The top 5%'s effective rate is 27.9%. Even allocating cloudy "costs of compliance", you can see that the "Fair"Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NASTI" would raise the taxes of the middle classes and lower the taxes of the wealthy. The data at fairtax org shows this. It is a trick created by very wealthy men to try and lower their own taxes more by shifting the burden to mids.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
oh gawd. the fkn fair tax will give the goverment the right to tax us.. wtf!!? the only legal tax is impost and excise, taxes on items bought.. read artical 1
mojofortherepublic 1 year ago
@mojofortherepublic 16th amendment...
trapp2357 8 months ago
Beware of these names. They're all the same person, a FairTax spammer who doesn't work. Compare vocabulary and style. BullshipDetector, CanteenKid, FarceTax, FilmCriticOne, NawwLeans, MakeMyPower, MarkDouglasC, MathTruthTax, MyBookDeal, MyBookWork, NavyBeer, NeilTaxCon, PrebateNonsense, Taxfools, TaxSanity, TruthMattersToMe, TubeTaxPro, 12FlyMe, SteamBoatCamp, ItchMyFoot, RooferHoofer, MybookDeal, etc etc.
urgener 1 year ago
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Beware of these names. They're all the same person, a FairTax spammer who doesn't work. Compare vocabulary and style. BullshipDetector, CanteenKid, FarceTax, FilmCriticOne, NawwLeans, MakeMyPower, MarkDouglasC, MathTruthTax, MyBookDeal, MyBookWork, NavyBeer, NeilTaxCon, PrebateNonsense, Taxfools, TaxSanity, TruthMattersToMe, TubeTaxPro, 12FlyMe, SteamBoatCamp, ItchMyFoot, RooferHoofer, MybookDeal, etc etc.
urgener 1 year ago
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urgener 1 year ago
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urgener 1 year ago
Fairtax would be great -- if city and state government will pay massive taxes to the federal government.
Fairtax plan is for city and state governments to pay a brand new, and huge, tax on all their spending. Including a tax on their payroll.
See Fairtax Answer Book, page 138. "Under our plan, all city and state government will pay the federal government taxes on all their spending, including spending for labor (wages)."
Where would city and state government GET the $?
SouthernFriedHoney 1 year ago
@SouthernFriedHoney and your 35 other youtube aliases
What is the difference between you buying yourself a loaf of bread and your state buying one for you? Besides the fact that you pay the government to buy the loaf of bread, nothing. You consume it either way, and both you and the state currently pay the embedded cost of income capital gain, corporate income and other taxes.
Exempting government consumption will cause every one will ask the government to give them everything.
dtvgmedia 10 months ago
@dtvgmedia You are falling for the "embedded tax" canard-- counting the same moneys twice. People pay taxes from SALARY, you cannot pay them again at purchase.There really is no such thing as "embedded" federal taxes, there are embedded SALARIES in the cost of goods. From that SALARY the individual pays their own taxes at (note this, important) DIFFERENT RATES.
You are not paying twice. You buy an item, some of that money pays salaries, some of the salary amounts pay taxes. Not 23% either.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie I think your confused. it would eliminate ALL taxes, not just income taxes. So any tax a company makes and passes on to the customer is embedded in to the price of that good. Take gasoline: every dollar spent in gas 45 cents (I think that's right) go to the taxes they have to pay. Who actually pays it...the customer. Not only do you pay sales taxes, you also pay the corporate taxes.
trapp2357 8 months ago
@trapp2357 No, you are confused. It does NOT replace "ALL taxes", and definitely not gasoline taxes-- it only would income, Social Security, Medicare, corporate, and estate taxes. Again, the "embedded (income) taxes" idea has been debunked, and even Boortz doesn't go around saying prices wil stay the same if one "keep's your whole paycheck" anymore. There are NOT 23%of embedded tax in everything-look at how that 23% was arrived at to understand this (hint--capital gains taxes emb in what?).
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
@FairTaxisaLie
While employees keep 100% of their wages, but removing business taxes from the last step in the production chain saves the end consumer ~ 15%.
Removing Business taxes from the last:
2 saves consumer ~ 20%.
3 saves consumer ~ 21.66%.
4 saves consumer ~ 22.22%.
5 saves consumer ~ 22.46%.
From all businesses saves consumers about 22.5%, and we have not yet included the savings from reduced tax code complexity.
What are you trying to do if you must deceive people?
dtvgmedia 2 days ago
@dtvgmedia You are making the usual mistake fans of the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax -Inclusive aka NASTI make-- if people keep ALL of their paycheck (keeping the amounts currently deducted for SS and IncTax), the bussiness STILL has that as an expense. And you are forgetting that the 23% sales tax ADDS ON to each purchase by every business in the chain. Even "Fair" Tax org's research admits that prices would rise and those making from about $15k to $150k would pay MORE in taxes than now.
FairTaxisaLie 2 days ago
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The poverty level poor will pay NO taxes. All the tax forms will disappear, and about $500 billion spent on overhead costs (compliance, filing) will bubble up free in the economy.
urgener 1 year ago
Check history ....The poor were taxed and taxed and in the end... Well!. We need taxes to run this great country, its a job, but When the country spend more than its worth it gets out of hand. Russia, France Italia (Romans). I support captalisum, its healthy, but the gread will distroy. I support a 10% tax across every American income.
No perks, No deductions just a flat rate of 10%
rweebobbi 1 year ago
@rweebobbi the fair tax doesnt affect the poor.
aussieconservative 1 year ago
Have you read their "research" ? Farce tax "research" BEGINS with the assumption Fairtax is a magic pony that shits gold, then tells how great it will be to have all that gold. They don't dare to any "real research," for the same reason their "calculator" does not ask a single question about your spending --- because THEY know its pure bullshit. That's right, Fairtax leaders KNOW their own plan is a farce, which is why they have avoided hearings under oath for 13 years.
NawwLeans 1 year ago
@NawwLeans have you read the books, or just make it up as you go along? If you have read the books, instead of assuming what it is saying then you just forgot what the books said.
trapp2357 8 months ago
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The Fair Tax is the dumbest tax we could possibly have. If you look at the history of sales taxes:
Charles I, 1642, deposed, decapitated
James II, 1688, deposed, Stuarts terminated
George III, lost colonies
Louis XVI, 1789-93, guillotined
Jefferson Davis, 1861-65, funds CSA with sales tax, CSA goes bankrupt
Czar Nicholas II, cannot finance war from sales taxes, shot, Romanov's done
India 1947, British sales tax on salt, British gone
South Vietnam 1960-65, doubled sales tax, landowners untaxed
land4citizens 1 year ago
I saw a great ad for the Fair Tax and went to the website they advertised to sign the petition and donate towards the 30 minute show they are developing to show on national tv on July 4th. PassFairTax(dot)com
BrSmith1321 1 year ago
Yes -- please get Fairtax to be a proirity to Tea Party. Then have tea party PASS the Fairtax (the GOP sure as fuck won't). I would LOVE the tea party to pass Fairtax.
Then I want to watch you retards try to make cancer victims pay 100,000 in sales tax on their chemo and surgery. GO!! And I want to wach you retards try to make every city and state pay huge taxes on their spending. Be FUN FUN FUN
CanteenKid 1 year ago
Our standard of living will increase with the FairTax, because our tax burden (per person) will drop, and because costs of production will drop. The tax burden will be thinned out because illegals and criminals will start paying, finally. Lower production costs will let companies lower prices while maintaining profit margin, because the tax code "compliance" cost will drop. This cost right now is about $900 per person per year. The poor will be "untaxed" without any lines to wait, too!
urgener 1 year ago
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MathTruthTax
FreeLunchTax
SouthernFriedHoney
FarceTax
PeopleLieAboutTaxes
12FlyMe
Are all the same person spamming all the fair tax debates.
riotuesday 2 years ago
IowaSea ,
12FlyMe,
CanteenKid , all the same idiot. has a bunch of accounts to make it look like multiple people agree with him and just spams fair tax threads. He is a complete idiot, ignore him.
InvaderZak 2 years ago 2
Fairtax would be great -- if city and state government will pay massive taxes to the federal government.
. See Fairtax Answer Book, page 138. "Under our plan, all city and state government will pay the federal government taxes on all their spending, including spending for labor (wages)."
But - how would city and state government GET the $. Also, why hide this in one sentence? This is 60% of the revenue!! Why hide that in one out of many thousands of sentences.? Why hide that??
DWTaxService 1 year ago
@DWTaxService Sounds to me like that would be something the individual states and cities would have to determine. I'm sure screwed up states like CA and NY would continue to burden their citizens with some kind of state tax to fund their large state and local beuracracies. I believe TX (where I live) funds itself mostly with a state sales tax which would have to be on top of the Fair Tax, but then again, you're hitting them at the point of consumotion and not production.
EchoMike03 1 year ago
Won't the lobbyists just lobby for exemptions from the sales/"fair" tax if it is adopted?
UsualMike 2 years ago
Usual - fuck yes they will lobby -- and get -- exemptions. Cancer victims, for example, sure as fuck will get exemptions.
The Pentagon sure as fuck will get an exemption. Renters will get one. Cities won't have to pay this idiot sales tax (yes -- FT math is based on cities paying massive taxes).
Fairtax leaders KNOW it's pure bullshit, they KNOW these and other exemptions are inevitble. It's a farce, a hoax.
PowerPlantEngineer 2 years ago
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riotuesday 1 year ago
@PowerPlantEngineer No. In the bill is a super majority need to change it. Including exemptions. Cancer victims don't get a tax break now. If they work they still pay SS, MC, Pay Roll, capital gains, death, gift, and inheritance taxes. Also the taxes the doctors pay are also incorporated in the final cost of the medical treatment. You seem to not have an understanding of economics.
asleeperj 1 year ago
Sleeper dumb fuck -- I know a kid dying of cancer right now Guess what retard? She doesnt pay capital gains. SHe doesn't pay FICA. She has a shunt in her brain to drain the fluid until the tumor kills her. Got that? She is 11 years old.
Fairtax math is based on EVERYONE paying that tax on EVERY DIME of cancer care, ect.
See dumb fuck -- it can not be paid -- its a farce/
LiarBoortz 1 year ago
@LiarBoortz Her doctors do, they pay pay roll for nurses. You are narrow minded, and cannot see the embedded tax implication of even the simplest things.
asleeperj 1 year ago
Aleep dumb fuck - the nurses will have to pay SALES taxes under FT dumb fuck, their taxes wont go down you idiot fuck head.
But the basic problem w/FT -- its bullshit. It's leaders KNOW it's bullshit. Their math "adds up" only if they can TAX the government about 1 trillion dollars. That's right -- they have the GOVERMENT becoming the BIGGEST taxpayer.
Its fucking insane, and they are NOT trying to pass it/
PowerPlantEngineer 1 year ago
@PowerPlantEngineer You don't know how our current tax structure works. "the government is taxed 1 trillion dollars" You prove your ignorance. The government, like all other players in the market has to also account for the fair tax; therefore, it is simply budgeted in. Don't forget the government taxes it's employee's income, which is a direct tax upon itself. = ) Good try though.
asleeperj 1 year ago
@UsualMike requires a super majority to pass. The fair tax is delicate! Once passed the people HAVE to keep an eye out for lobbyists. Not to say they do now. It's a great many a problem we have that are caused by Americans sleeping too much, and not paying attention.
asleeperj 1 year ago
@asleeperj too many people alseep? You dumb fuck -- you are in acoma you are so fucking stupid. Fairtax is total insane bullshit, they are NOT trying to pass it, and you don't even have a clue what the plan IS.
LiarBoortz 1 year ago
@LiarBoortz Do you what the plan is?
trapp2357 8 months ago
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Fairtax wont eliminate anything -- its a hoax, a farce. Its a farce because it's own leaders know its pure bullshit, and they aren't even trying to pass it.
Why do you think in 13 years NO corporation or business is for this farce? It would get rid of ALL their taxes, but they arent for it? Why?
Here is why -- its a joke, a farce, and Fairtax KNOWS it.
Sure it sounds great -- but its magical bullshit. They pretend to be able to tax the government for almost 2 trillion every year.
IowaSea 2 years ago
The Fair Tax would eliminate federal taxes on income, gifts, estates, capital gains, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment and the alternative minimum tax. It would include a prebate to low-income people on the FairTax they pay up to the federal poverty level.
johnreed81 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@johnreed81 The Fairtax won't eliminate shit, because it's a farce.
Don't get me wrong -- I'd love this piece of shit farce to pass. But sadly it's own leader know its fucking bullshit. They know you can't tax the government to get money for the government.
But they also know stupid people like you believe any crap they sell if they make it sound magic and let you blame a boogieman for stopping it.
It's nonsene.
Giving stupid people big lie -- like FT -- is Hitler Tenet
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
A National Sales tax to replace all other federal taxes would be 60-90% dumb fuck.
The 23-30% is fucking nonsense -- and even that would be insane. How the fuck will people pay 30% sales tax on their rent, their car insurance, their food? And it won't fucking be 30% anyway -- it would be 90%.
Read the Joint Committee on Taxation report for President Bush, 2005.
Fairtax is pure bullshit.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
@12FlyMe Your an idiot. It's a RETAIL SALES TAX. NOT an insurance tax, not a rent tax. RETAIL, on all NEW goods and services.
Futhermore, Those in which you mentioned already have whats call an inclusive tax. You pay that persons property tax, income tax, gift tax, capital gains tax, Those would be incorporated into your rent. you do not under stand economics.
asleeperj 1 year ago
Attend a TEA party wearing FairTax garb, waving FairTax signs, and handing out FairTax info cards or papers. Some Tea parties give or rent space for booths for conservative causes. I helped at a booth in Richmond a couple weeks ago, and one in Chesapeake a few weeks before that. With the current tea parties, there should be plenty of opportunitites to advertise the FairTax.
urgener 2 years ago 2
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Dumb fuck I was FOR the fairtax long before the book. And of course I read both those pieces of shit, and the web sites.
Its TOTAL garbage you fucking idiot. Read the fucking book your fucking self. Read page 148 for example, retard -- what the fuck engages you fucking mindwhen you read you gulllible moron.
Do you fucking really think the governmetn will be the biggest taxpayer to government?
Do you have enough brains to wonder why the fuck corporations and business are against this BS?
CanteenKid 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Any retard who believes the federal government can write itself trillions in sales tax is just dumb.
In fact Fairtax own supporters who are econmist freely admit the FEDERAL government can not possibly pay itself taxes. It wont matter if it writes a check -- it won't create any income.
They do claim cities and states could pay this massive tax --- but here is a fuching clue: Fairtax is hiding these taxes on government in fine print. No city or state knows.
Its all pure bs.
CanteenKid 2 years ago
Read the Fairtax book and do a little research before you call every supporter a "dumb fuch" and a "retard". What are you 12?
Dustjavo 2 years ago 2
@CanteenKid The government doesn't write it's self money. It simply competes at the regular price eliminating it's own favoritism.
This is an easy to understand concept. If the government got the 23 percent tax off, as in not on the books, than it would have an unfair advantage. I don't understand why people find it so hard to understand that. Then again you are government educated, so i cannot blame you completely.
You are a good Orthodox party member...
asleeperj 1 year ago
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Some retard wrote me and said that because the Federal government pays embedded taxes now, its fine and logical that it pays itself massive sales taxes after Fairtax passes.
No dumb fuch -- its not fine. If the government writes itself checks for over a trillion dollars -- thats called a bail out. Your goofy Fairtax shit is just that -- trillions of dollars each year in phantom bail outs.
When the government writes itself a check - it does not get any spendable money dumb fuch.
FT is BS
CanteenKid 2 years ago
LowSea, CanteenKid, PrebateNonsense are all the samefag. Perpetuating the same line which has no relevance to the fairtax.
gorescam 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Didnt read the bill -- what part of BULLSHIT don't you fucking get?
What part of no hearings under oath dont you get?
What part of Fairtax pretends to tax the government -- and hides this shit -- -don't you grasp.
Suppose I told your dumb ass all we have to do, is fucking tax the fucking government? Cause that's really what Fairtax is -- most of the money would come from this magic tax on government -- not people.
Thats how fucked FT is -- its pure fucking nonsense.
PrebateNonsense 2 years ago
Mr. Speaker, in 1848, Karl Marx said, a progressive income tax is needed to transfer wealth and power to the state. Thus, Marx's Communist Manifesto had as its major economic tenet a progressive income tax. Think about it, 1848 Karl Marx, Communism.... I say it is time to replace the progressive income tax with a national retail sales tax, and it is time to abolish the IRS, my colleagues.----James A. Traficant
lukyll 2 years ago 2
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lukyll -- think about it dumb fuck -- Karl Marx wore underpants. Therefore, underpants is a diabolical scheme to screw America.
Think about it dumb fuck. Karl Marx chewed his food. Therefore, chewing food is a dibolical plan to screw America.
You can have a national sales tax dumb fuck -- if you want a 60-90% sales tax. Just be honest about what it will cost dumb fuck.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
a progressive income tax was the 2nd tenet of the manifesto. you are correct with this reference.
johnreed81 2 years ago
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Fairtax is PURE bullshit. Its a massive NEW tax (which they hide in fine print) on the government.,
Everything from police departments to the military to NASA to Medicaid -- have to pay massive taxes.
IN fact Fairtax only gets about half its income from "People" these goofy bastards pretend to get half of the revenue FROM the government.
Funny shit -- -and Fairtax said "only people pay taxes" but then pretend this crap.
Check out the fine print.
Its utter fucking nonsense.
CanteenKid 2 years ago
you didnt read the bill....
lukyll 2 years ago
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Only way Fairtax adds up is if the government can create 1.5 trillion out of thin air by paying itself.
Test their shit. Pay yourself 10K a day to cut your own grass. If at the end of the
month you have 300K, Fairtax works fine.
If you only have short grass, FT is crap
I read the book 4 times. Its a con job.
Google "Fairtax absurdity"
IowaSea 2 years ago
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you didnt read the bill....
lukyll 2 years ago
It's a shame people on here would rather criticize the fairtax than read their website or the book! I guess they love the government taking their hard earned money.
DRSmetal 2 years ago
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CanteenKid 2 years ago
EVERYONE! The truth is, that we all pay the taxes now! They are all hidden in the products we consume anyway and along with that, they have the power to tax us 100% now!
The Fair Tax is a simple way that takes that power out of their hands and it also makes the taxes VISIBLE to us for the first time!
Why would we not want the Fair Tax! It is simple, fair, and transparent!
videophotoshop 2 years ago 2
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Video -- the truth is, Fairtax is shit. And its not transparent dumb fuck.
Fore example, the bastards hide the fact that about half the revenue they say they will collect -- comes from their hidden tax ON the government.
Thats right -- these fuckers have a HUGE hidden tax on the government. Its pure fucking shit. They aren't serious.
These Fairtax fuckers won't go near a fucking hearing in congress about it -- they KNOW its pure bullshit,
Google Fairtax absurdity -- learn
IowaSea 2 years ago
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What part of "the government can't pay itself a trillion dollars in sales taxes" don't you understand?
Yes -- Fairtax depends on shit like that.
Their math depends on getting a MAJOR part of taxes FROM taxing the government.
Its dumber than dog spit
Read the book page 148. "The federal government itself will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
And thats just ONE thing -- its all based on bullshit like that.
Its a Magic Pony that shits gold. Its a farce.
FilmCriticOne 2 years ago
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Plus -- Boortz admits not only that this dumb ass plan is based on taxing the government for most of its own income -- he also says in fine print that everyone would have to donate back to their employer all the money they "save" from no taxes taken out on paycheck.
Thats right. According to Boortz himself -- we ALL have to donate all the taxes we used to pay, back to our employer -- for the math to work.
Its really crazy shit when you find out the dumb ass real plan.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
thats not only a lie you didnt read the bill....
lukyll 2 years ago
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Fairtax is pure bullshit.
They are trying to sell you crap they know won't pass - and won't work.
Fairtax is based on making the government pay over a trillion dollars in sales taxes -- to itself. That's how their math "works"
Read the fuching book. Page 148 "The federal government itself will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
Its pure bullshit. Its not a little bullshit. It's total crap -- and they know it.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
as a small business owner, I wonder if I buy a product which is much more expensive now (due to the tax) so I raise it even more to make up for the difference in my profit I then have the consumer pay for it at an even higher rate then the wholesale I got for it. then the consumer is really screwed..example the cigarettes cost about 5.50 in my state but only cost 3.70 in another state due to our state taxes, imagine if it was milk or gas that might be to much for the poorer people to handle
987steel 2 years ago
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What part of "the government can't pay itself a trillion dollars in sales taxes" don't you get?
Yes -- Fairtax depends on shit like that.
Their math depends on getting a MAJOR part of taxes FROM taxing the government.
Its dumber than dog spit
Read the book page 148. "The federal government itself will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
And thats just ONE thing -- its all based on bullshit like that.
Its a Magic Pony that shits gold.
Its a farce.
NeilTaxCon 2 years ago
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No dumb ass - the government does NOT collect a trillion dollars in sales taxes from itself -- in that or any other way you moron.
You dumb asses who think Fairtax is a Magic Pony that shits gold, are just dumber than fuch.
I suppose its understandable you are foold by FT bullshit -- after all, they hide their bullshit.
But I have pointed their bullshit out to you dufus. I showed you their crap trick.
One trick -- pretending to tax the government.
Its pure bullshit you dumbax
FairtaxFraud 2 years ago
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Real math by real economists have shown a national sales tax -- to replace all other taxes -- is possible.
Problem is, the rate would be 60% -- or higher. That came from the Joint Commission on Taxation, a study done for President Bush.
But Fairtax claims it would only be 23% --- how?
Because Fairtax lies to dumb ass people and tells them it can put a huge sales tax on the government, and get money that way.
That's just one of their lies.
Its a bunch of crap.
Taxfools 2 years ago
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Taxfools 2 years ago
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Fairtax 23% my ass. You dumb fuchs listen to this crap, and are too stupid to even question it. Talk about suckers.
The 23% figure comes from FT insane and lying pretense that they can get a huge amount of taxes FROM the government.
Thats right fools - FT will tax the government -- and count that as income.
Thats how they get 23% fools - by lying to your dumb ass.
Read the book you idiots. Read page 148 "The federal government will become a MAJOR TAXPAYER".
MarkDouglasC 2 years ago
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Boortz is a bullshit liar. Find out what his crock of crap is - google the truth on fairtax, fairtax absurdity. Read my posts below.
Boortz is a liar - and he knows it.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
DISCLAIMER FOR THOSE SERIOUS ABOUT DISCUSSING THE FAIRTAX: Sincere, intellectually honest debate is ALWAYS welcome, but ignore the person known as 12FlyMe/NawwLeans/Bullship Detector, etc. He continually posts a rash of lies, slanders, name-calling, and general nonsense, and has no interest in honest debate on HR25. Despite multitudes of facts and rational arguments presented in response to his rants, he continues undeterred in his campaign of misinformation. Pay no attention to him.
abnrgrtr 2 years ago 2
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I want the Fairtax you idiot. I would LOVE to see this full of shit plan pass. Its such a crock.
I would love to see the bullshit pass, so you morons who ate this farce up, can learn. Its pure bullshit -- its not hard to spot the bullshit. Its a lie.
You cant fuching put a fugging sales tax ON the government you idiot, and count that as income. But thats what these liars are doing.
And thats just the START of their BS.
So pass it -- pass it and learn.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
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Fairtax (Farce tax) might as well say "2+2= 5, therefore, I am the pope"
You lunatic bullshitters (and liars) are saying you can make the federal government, AND state government, AND local government pay a huge sales tax.
And you liars/lunatics COUNT that as money -- as income. You retards - government had to PAY it. Its not income indiot.
Boortz knows that. Boortz knows he is full of bullshit. Bootz is lying to your dumb ass.
Get mad at Boortz - he lied to you. I told you truth.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
The only people who wouldn't want the FairTax to pass are special interest groups who lobby Congress for tax breaks, politicians who will see their favorite "vote-for-me" arguement evaporate or liberals who are scared that they may have to take responsibility for themselves instead of being dependent on the government. So tell us, Mark, which are you?
Econtchr 2 years ago
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Yes I read the book -- four times,
I also read Boortz "clarifications" where he admits you don't take home a dime more - you are supposed to DONATE -- thats right DONATE -- the money you now pay in taxes, to your employer. That way your employer can lower prices.
Its pure bullshit.
MarkDouglasC 2 years ago
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Dont get me wrong -- I want the Fairtax to pass. Its such wonderful bullshit.
And if you pass this farce -- it would be fun to watch you explain how the government can pay a trillion in sales taxes to itself -- and count that as income.
Fun -- to watch you tell nursing home paitents with limited income, they owe 10-20K in sales tax.
Fun -- to watch you tell the parents of a child with luekemia they owe 50K in sales taxes.
Fun fun. Please pass the FT.
MarkDouglasC 2 years ago
Sounds like Mark and Bullshipdetector haven't a CLUE how FairTax works. Either you haven't read the book OR you don't have enough of a grasp on the economic principles to understand why this will work without a hitch.
BTW,....the "cancer victim" will not see his/her bill increase a penny under FairTax so stop with the emotional BS.
Econtchr 2 years ago
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Yes our tax code sucks. We need a simple and fair, understandable code. But the Fairtax isn't it. In fact, its pure bullship. Its literally a farce. One example -- it pretends all government levels -- city, state, federal, will pay the US treasury huge sales taxes -- on everything from new highways, to the Shuttle, to nuke subs. Poppycock -- where will all these governments GET huge money to pay these taxes. Plus, how will cancer victims pay 50K or more in sales tax? Its nonsense.
BullshipDetector 2 years ago
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We can and should make a very simple tax code. Fairtax isnt it -- fairtax is literally a farce. But we can have a one or two page tax form, easily. Just tax all income TYPES the same - quit screwing work. Call income "income" earned income or unearned.
MarkDouglasC 3 years ago
Be smart with your money, it should be a problem.
BoyKagome 3 years ago
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COmplete free ride my arse! If you rent, you will pay the world's highest sales tax on your rent. Its the worlds highest sales tax on CANCER surgery -- nursing home care -- dental bills --even car insurance. The prebate is 200 a month - but that doesnt touch 50,000 in sales tax on cancer surgery and chemo. Fairtax is literally a farce, not sort of.
MarkDouglasC 3 years ago
Actually, as part of the Fair Tax package, the Federal Government would send out a monthly prebate to every head of household. This prebate would cover all tax expenses up to the poverty line. So, lower income workers essentially get a completely free ride under the Fair Tax plan. Some might even come out ahead.
hesdjjim 3 years ago 2
My question to this approach is; Who and How do we clarify our Income to be able to receive those rebates? And as such, this 'tracking' could lead to later abuses of information given to the government. Not that they might not have it now, but I would suggest grocery stores are simply allowed to maintain the current system - no taxation on basic food items. Much easier and just as fair to all. The Fat Cats would still pay tax on their High-End dining out experiences.
dbram32 2 years ago