Your theory fell flat ..... jereremiah 31:32.... (IT WILL NOT BE LIKE THE COVENANT) I MADE WITH THEIR ANCESTORS WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF EGYPT .... if the cove was 10c in egypt and he give us a different one how can it be the same ? Wow ... your just stuck on egw
Luke 24:44 .... He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you : Everything must be FULFILLED that is writtent about me in the LAW OF MOSES the PROPHETS AND PSALMS ...... WHAT DID HE NOT COME TO DESTROY ANYBODY ?
I said the 10c is put to the side obsolete no longer in use .........Mt 5:18 is the book of the law ........ I never said abolished but you keep thinking I say 10c ..... 10c is put to the side
@jethro3232 ...in your own words..the law is obsolete but it is not abolished..I find it fascinating that you can use two negatives in one sentence..lol..my friend Jesus was speaking figuratively..Paul used the word "nullify" when he said in Romans 3:31"Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith? NOT AT ALL! Rather, we uphold the law."
NULLIFY = OBSOLETE..
so if you cannot nullify (render obsolete) the law by faith..and cannot destroy the law
till heaven and earth pass away..where do you stand?
@upholdingthetruth From what i see you look at Mat5:18 completely out of context and meaning.Pay attention of what Jesus meant by "till all is accomplished and the least of these commandments v.18,19"
Mat:5:20"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"
+all the way till verse 40.
He gave them NC laws.OC law had his purpose but NC is much superior in every way
@upholdingthetruth You tell me my brother what is a NC.I wish Christians would not ask this question but as long as we let somebody else interpret the Bible for us /in this case SDA although not limited to just SDA/ we are easily submitted under cults all over the place.
Search "new covenant" in NT and you will see it's nothing like SDA teaches.NC has mediator,blood and laws just as the OC but...far away superior.Paul describes OC as shadow,the body of NC is Christ himself
Lol you think that scares me ...... according to you nobody found biblical evidence that its abolished soo it showes how smart you are trying to use that on me ...... lol ... what a jk
@jethro3232..even @Ex EGW is confused about Matt 5:18..he says it refers to the books of Moses..what!..so are we to keep the ceremonial laws as well?..something is wrong with Jesus I guess..don't you think?..right now I'm still seeing the heavens,birds flying and um!..oh! I thought I was in the new earth but wait .... Obama is the President of the US..ok ok I'm still on earth..so may be I should go sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness because my dog pooed in my neighbours backyard!
What did Jesus says on the cross with his last breathe...."it is finished!'
It seems you may be ignoring this statement when you promote the Old Covenant Laws. These were between Israel and God. The Ten Commandments are known as the Stone Tablets of that covenant ( found many times in scripture ). Now you cannot have a foot in both camps. Choose what covenant you are under. As to Matt 5 the Law and the Prophets represent the entire old testament, yes fulfilled by Christ.
@ExEGW.. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" Heb. 10:16..my friend the law is the same.. nothing is new...what was written on stone is now written in the heart that is why it's new..the law was upheld by the death of a lamb then..now the law is upheld by the death of christ..that is why christ broadened the implications of the law
@jethro3232...trying to find some solace from ex-adventists..lol..I'm just letting people no that you are not able to give scriptural evidence that the law was abolished..I hope I have made myself clear!
You must have proven uphold wrong cause he attacks me in another room about the book of moses ...... its funny how he did not defend ur answer but go into another room and tells me I can't prove it ...... lol
..there is not one Scripture in the New Testament about polygamy being permissable or being good.
How many wives did Adam have in Gen.2:24? One. God did not take two wives out from his side. Monogamy has always been God's standard for the human race. From the very beginning God set the pattern by creating a monogamous marriage relationship - one man and one woman, Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:27; 2:21-25).
Was Abraham, David Solomon condemned or approved for practicing polygamy? Well they certainly did not get blessed for it! In fact every polygamist in the Bible like David and Solomon (1 Chron. 14:3) were punished. This should be evidence that this is not God’s will. Scripture has always commanded monogamy (Ps.128:3; Prov. 5:18; 18:22; 19:14; 31:10-29; Eccl. 9:9).
In the Bible there are about 15 examples of polygamy from the time of Lamech to the first century. These men had enough power that no one could call into question their practice, they were unaccountable.Polygamy is mentioned in the Mosaic law and made inclusive on the basis of legislation, it continued to be practiced through the period of Jewish history.
Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
@oneworldkingdom on a diff note, not debating here, so what do you think, it is ok for a man to have more than 1 wife and EVEN sex with a servant, but its not ok for a women to do the same as the man is allowed. Interesting
So one does it, it's called adultery the other does it and it's not called adultery.
Something is bothersome about that. But in the NC even if we lust in our heart of a women then we commit adultery
Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
Romans 5:12-13...therefore just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all people because all sinned... to be sure sin was in the world before the law was given but sin is not charged to anyone account where there is no law ..... ( sin was in the world before the law was givien and adam had sin so tell me how was the law out before mt sinai
@jethro3232 Adam's sin was not transgression of God's law, the 10C. But he still transgressed. What he transgressed was a specific command by God not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't God's law, but it was still disobedience, which is why satan could lay claim to human race.
If there is no law then there is not sin!!..understand..it goes hand in hand..one cannot go without the other..!!!
so if there is sin..there is law!...you've got to make sense of scripture my friend.. not just interpreting scriptures because certain phrases or words are missing!
@jethro3232 And yet, the Bible is also clear that sin is the transgression of the law. What does this mean? There's also evidence that some of the 10C was known before Sinai. There's a solution that brings both sides to agreement - that the 10C was known verbally in some form, but not as a law, and that the 10C was given in writing as a law at Sinai.
@upholdingthetruth Compare your understanding about the law with SDA and EGW claiming that the law is eternal /before sin and after sin/ Deut.5:3"Not with our ancestors did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today"
The cycle of commandments and punishments was not there till Adams sin.
Original Hebrew first time of "God commanded" is when God told Noah to built the Ark.
You made valid points but there is much more than SDA scripture twist
@jethro3232 A better question you should be asking, is how God could punish the human race by destroying them with the Flood if His law did not exist? This isn't about whether it was given in stone, but whether it existed. Sin can't be taken into account if the law didn't exist. In other words, it existed, but was not given yet in the form of commandment because He hadn't yet called out a special people to represent what He stands for.
We are released from the Law because we are now living in a different realm (country - called the Kingdom of Heaven). Different Laws apply.
Foe example - the Sabbath is now kept in a different way, a much superior way, an indwelling relationship not just once a week. If we say we need to keep the Sabbath to draw near to God then we have missed the whole point of the New Covenant. In the New Covenant 'today' is the day of rest in Christ, we don't wait till the 7th day comes around.
@ExEGW The Sabbath has never been the way to access rest in God. It has always been a reminder of resting in God by physically experiencing it. Do we need to? Bad question, because it's not a matter of needing to. A Christian experience must never be a "need to" because then it becomes a religion of whim.
The Sabbath is supposed to remember to kind of rest God had after creating. A day of enjoying the provisions of God throughout the week. God did not rest from sin.
@iMattCi89 The Sabbath was not a commandment at the beginning.There was just the SABBATH and did not have evening and morning.Gen 2:1-3.
In the new earth there will not be sunsets and sunrise and so THE SABBATH returns to original state.
God himself is the light and the rest and the temple as you can see Rev21:23,Rev22:5"They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light..."
Read your Bible.OT law is not eternal as SDA teaches
@VESANG "The Sabbath was not a commandment at the beginning" Does it need to be? The law "don't commit adultery" wasn't given as commandment until Sinai, but was still recognised as God's law by Joseph. The 4th commandment isn't isn't a command to keep the Sabbath, it's to remember to keep the Sabbath. The command's to remember. While there won't be 24 hr days in the new earth, that doesn't mean it ends. For it to end, would be to imply that God's sanctification can be revoked.
You are placing the Stone Tablets of the Covenant in a position of high honour and this this should not be done. Paul was very much against.
The Holy Spirit strongly illuminated Paul's mind to the truth of the New Covenant. You appear to be overlooking this truth. Remember, the Law came through Moses but grace and 'truth' came through Jesus Christ. Let us focus on this truth.
I think you see the Bible as one book without a division between the old and new testament?
@ExEGW "Paul was very much against" No, he wasn't against keeping the law of God. What he was against, was people making the sacrifices of Jewish feasts and circumcision, a test of fellowship and acceptance and method of salvation. Martin Luther considered Romans the clearest gospel. And I agree; in it I find the proper place for the law of God with faith. Not salvation by works, but the inevitable work of the Spirit changing our affections. And FYI, Paul's letters wasn't their scripture.
The old covenant ( the Ten Commandments ) was an agreement between Israel and God with Moses as the mediator. You seem to be bush-wacking this agreement and trying to ram it somehow into the New Testament. This is not good, in fact it is very bad! We should be listening to Jesus who is our mediator, not Moses.
@ExEGW "The old covenant ( the Ten Commandments ) was an agreement" No, the 10C was not the agreement. It was the terms of the agreement. The agreement itself -> On God's side "I will be your God and protect you from calamity". On the Hebrews' side "We will do all that you tell us to do in your law".
This is evident by Jeremiah 31:33, which shows that the new covenant is about God putting His law into the hearts and minds. In other words, law does not equal to covenant, but conditions.
@ExEGW wrong..where is your prove text that the law was done away with in the new testament..Matt 5:18"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."..heaven and earth hath not passed away yet my friend, and so his law still stands..Moses was never a mediator..the sacrificing of an unblemished lamb was the way of seeking pardon..pointing to Christ, mediator and the ultimate lamb..!
@ExEGW Great points and if we add that Mat.5:18 refers not just to the entire OC law to be fulfilled by Jesus but it also points to the promised NEW SUPERIOR COVENANT /of the Spirit/. Jesus describes THOSE SMALLEST COMMANDMENTS which the leaders did not even know exist in Mat.5:20-48 ...He completely shocked the accusers with new set of commandments challenging the very foundation of understanding they had about the law.
@iMattCi89 Hi,u made a interesting point as 2 Joseph. But the problem is, it was unlawful sleep with another mans women & a woman that belongs to a man couldn't be with another man. BUT a man could be with many women (Abraham) had a wife & a slave women. Now if the 10c were there at that time, then Abraham committed adultery & others 2. so right there shows the law was not given until Moses
& God said, not like the law I gave when I lead them out of ... thats OC law (TC)
@game11221 Er... sorry to burst your bubble on this, but... polygamy (multiple wives) was practiced up until Jesus' time. It isn't forbidden by 10C or the the other laws. It's not forbidden, but not recommended either (1 Tim 3:2,12). After all, no man can serve two masters, right? hehe ^_^ ;-)
"not like the law I gave" actually Jeremiah 31:32 says "not like the covenant I made with their fathers". Like I said before, the law isn't the covenant, it's the terms, the words of the pact.
Gal 3 The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was 'added' because of transgressions 'until' the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Jesus and Paul state that the Law was introduced at Mt Sinai.
@game11221.. it is fascinating to note that most christians believe that the law was not given until moses..the law was in existent long before sinai..Romans 4:15"Because the law worketh wrath: FOR WHERE NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANGRESSION."..transgression began in heaven by Lucifer..so my friend where there is transgression there is law!!
distinction of chazon & mareh— words translated as vision’ This is enough to make any Hebraist, not paid by the denomination, weep. Words R used interchangeably, anyone can see by using a Strong’s Concordance Chazon refers 2 the ecstatic experience of prophetic vision & mareh 2 its contents. latter comes from root meaning ‘2 see’ Mareh is found manyl times in later chapters of Dan its not limited 2 the detail overheard concerning the 2300 evening-mornings. O that the sda might play fair
Its not a practice of the OT 2 separate the 2 advents. Kingdom of God is seen as a unit ushered in by the death of the Messiah & consummated at his return. Parallel passage Dan7:13-14 cited by Christ in Matt28:18 applying 2 him do 2 the victory of the Cross. ch2 & 7 cover same ground with the Son replacing the stone. Similarly, D9:24 comprehends both advents. Legally—though not empirically— sin, transgression & iniquity, were finished by the 1st advent
@ExEGW That was how the Hebrews understood it, because to them, the terms and conditions were used to title the covenant. For example, the covenant of circumcision. Circumcision wasn't the covenant, but the terms of the covenant.
In the same way, the 10 Commandments was the terms of the covenant, but not in and of itself the covenant. Covenant means solemn pact/promise.
To all SDAs and non SDAs We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
EW will be alive when Jesus returns, England will attack the USA, Civil War is a sign Jesus is about 2 return, 1850's EW said Jesus will return in a few months, Adventists living in 1856 will be alive when Jesus returns, EW saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn
Added scripture
Satan offered a pardon in heaven, Angels would have died 4 man, Some races are a mixture of man & beast, Jesus died 4 angels, Takes 7 days 2 get 2 heaven, Angels have golden access cards
"The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility ... The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit." {DA 172.1}
@iMattCi89 WOW some of what u said is good (own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility)
BUT there is a problem!
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118
@game11221 "WOW some of what u said is good" Actually, 0% of the words in quotation marks that you refer to were mine. I copied directly from Desire of Ages and Signs of the Times, words directly from Ellen White.
As for that quote from SDA Bible commentary, it's the truth! Imputed righteousness is just a statues. The holiness of Adam before sin wasn't imputed, it was a state of being. That can only come by obeying God (not transgress) and faith in Christ (to deliver [Acts 26:18])
@iMatt And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD waiting for that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author & perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame & has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
@game11221 We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
@game11221 "SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD" Stephen's vision had Jesus standing. My point is that whether Jesus is "standing" or "sitting", does not equal to stopping. Paul was quoting from Psalm 110:1. In Hebrew, the word for "sit" can either be literal, or a manner of speech. It can mean remain/linger/dwell. The same for "right hand". It can either mean a literal position, or a manner of speech as "the power man executing the wishes of the king".
{B}.... but they can not change the heart; they can not purify the soul. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before man can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness." {ST, May 28, 1902 par. 3}
@iMattCi89 A question outside the subject: We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
(Rom 8:9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Rom 8:7) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere; but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, ...{B}
@iM Woman who has a husband is bound by the law 2 her husband long as he lives But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. While her husband lives, she marries another man, she is a adulteress; but if her husband dies she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man Brethren u also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that u may be married to another- 2 Him who was raised from the dead
@game11221@VESANG I'm praying for both of you - because of you just don't understand that the IJ has never been about salvation by works, but the judging of your heart. It's the question of "Is Christ the rule of your heart and actions?" Being wedded to Christ is more than a title or simple belief - it's being ONE with Him. That's what the IJ is - seeing if you are doing the works of Christ because by the fruit of the tree will we know if the tree the branch is attached to is truly Christ.
To Adventism's harshest critics, I could quote Jesus’ words about planks and splinters in eyes, but I think the pithy rhyme, 'he who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones’ is perhaps just as poignant.
@ExEGW i wouldnt be talking because Ellen said that there was a gap in the constellation of Orion...no one believed her because there was no such thing then after she died scientists found a massive gap in the belt of Orion...i though that was weird lol
@hoper2302 Why do you focus on Orion statement vs all the failed prophecies...she claimed for all of those :"said the Angel...I was shown..."
Is it fair to ask what kind of angel she communicated with .../even if we assume her statement about Orion was true/ ..which one is more important Orion knowledge /that fallen angel could have reveled to her/ or failed prophecies ?
What do you think our criteria /referent point/ should be?
@ExEGW I think it's time for "mattCi89" to give up just as previous SDAs did here because we have disproved him. I thank you for taking time to disprove the SDA false teachings. I am by you side everywhere you see them teaching wrong thing to people. I will join you into this fight because we have to disprove the message of false prophets in Jesus name.
@game11221 Quoting Mat 25:13 doesn’t cover the Father’s privilege to reveal it if He so chooses. But I’m not saying that God gave a lie. What God did was show that the sanctuary was to undergo cleansing, but He blocked people from understanding what “sanctuary” meant. So, as is common with humans, they filled in the gap from the common conceptions of the time. To deny that this happened, would also deny that it is impossible for any person to understand the Gospel ...[pt B]
@game11221 [pt B] ..unless God removes the block to understanding, because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart, remember? [Rom 9:17-18] The disciples misinterpreted the prophecies concerning Jesus even though they knew the time of fulfilment of prophecy was at hand; did that make them agents of Satan? Or was it just that their understanding was blocked? Based on the parable of the 10 virgins, the Millerites... [pt C]
@game11221 [pt C] ..believed that they were given that midnight cry “Behold, the bridegroom is coming!” So they preached it – and fruits of repentance and righteousness were the result. People like Canning who preached a definite time that wasn’t given by God, did not have their followers repent and live holy lives. That was the difference between misguided proclamations and the Advent cry of 1844. If it was of Satan, ...[pt D]
@iMat To defend the sda doctrine is ur right, it's ur belief, be it right or wrong
U see it as all truth. Were, When I was a sda, I truly felt the same as u. Hell I thought everybody else was wrong & we sda had it right. I knew no better, the sda theology is all I knew
But doing bible study with a sda pastor, I found scrip that he used did not hold true with context, red flag! So I started to research the sda doctrines if true or error. I took off sda glasses & looked 4 truth
@up U have to take off ur sda glasses & as 2 any denomination 1 is in 4 search for truth. Do I know all? NOPE
Is there SOME truth in the sda? YES
Legalism manifest to cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ to Christ is manifested in faith, hope & love, anymore then that it becomes heretical, it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ does not imply legalism but works as a method of salvation does & will be lost
@game11221 [pt D] ...he wouldn’t suffer to have any true repentance and dedication to holy living. As for quoting Acts 1:7, that would apply to the 1260 days as well if you think it applies to us. Jesus was answering them, not speaking to us. However, we know that Jesus wants us to understand the 1260 days, because in Revelation He declared it should be understood. In other words, understanding of time prophecies was not for the disciples to know, but for the future generations.
@iMattCi89 I could re-counter your defense 2 the shut door, date setting, whats the point, because if EW said, one is saved by works, then you would believe it. If she said cinnamon is BAD FOR YOU, YOU WOULD NOT EAT IT.
If Bates promulgated a theory first then EW would have a vision on it.
Look EW did say many great things, a lot was copied from others, but there is error to.
If you were a Mormon in a debate, you would be defending there doctrine just as you do the sda doctrine
@game11221 "if EW said, one is saved by works, then you would believe it" HAHA! ROFL; I believe her precisely because she doesn't!
"If she said cinnamon is BAD FOR YOU, YOU WOULD NOT EAT IT" I have to stifle a giggle on this one, because in chinese medicine, too much cinnamon's also a bad thing. It's common knowledge now that overly spiced stuff ain't good for the stomach.
"If Bates promulgated a theory first then EW would have a vision on it." Really? I'd like a list of occurrences
The most convincing evidence that Daniel 8 is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes is the fact that Daniel 11 explains the prophecy of Daniel 8 in greater detail, and the little horn is interpreted from verse 21 onwards. While Uriah Smith has tried to tailor history to make it fit the prophecy, his explanation is but a travesty. Only Antiochus truly fits the specifications.
@game11221 1.Antiochus view was originated by Porphyry (Died AD 304). Porphyry was a pagan whose one aim was to stop the advance of Christianity. His theory was not to expound Daniel but to discredit and deny Daniel as a prophet. He did not try to confirm the Bible, but to deny it's divine origin. It was a pagan attack to hold back Christianity's inroads into paganism.
@game11221 2..Daniel therefore, according to this theory, was not a prophet but merely an historian. It was the amazing accuracy of the sure word of prophecy and its uncanny fulfillment that made Porphyry claim Daniel was written after the events of Antiochus, hence was not a prophecy at all. Such is the origin of this God dishonoring
@upholdingthetruth interesting, Even the Jews, take D8 as to Antiochus. they even celebrate the day good old Mac, restored the temple serves. This day is called Hanukkah.And Christ held it to
Even Christ thought He was coming back soon & so did his disciples, surly they knew the word. I guess they did not see it, only the sda 1800 yrs latter figured it out, That came out date setting the the bible says not to. Sad thing is, Oct. 23 1844 is the wrong date
@game11221 4.Antiochus was not a horn or a kingdom. A Horn of a beast is never taken for a single person, but signifies a new kingdom. The "four horns" of the He-goat were "four kingdoms" (Daniel 8:22). Antiochus was merely one of a line of kings and not a separate kingdom. Hence he was merely a part of one of the horns. Antiochus reigned over one of the four horns and "the little horn" was a fifth power. Therefore, Antiochus was not the "little horn". Rome was "the little horn.”.
@upholdingthetruth As to sda starting date, and Dan8 2300 that sda imply 2300 yrs, started in 457bc, (d8:13) How long will the sanctuary be desecrated? So, What desecrated the Sanctuary in 457 BC?
and what sanctuary the one on earth or the one in heaven? I know sda start with the earthly then move to the heavenly. how convenient.
Again what desecrated the temp;e in 457bc?
Sda say sins of the saints bible says the little horn
@game11221 5.Antiochus certainly did not "wax exceeding great". He was not even the strongest of the Seleucid section of Alexander's kingdom. Antiochus was weak and was tributary to the Romans.
@game11221 6.Antiochus certainly did not wax "exceeding great towards the south" Daniel 8:9. His march to the south" to Egypt was stopped by the mere word of an unarmed Roman officer. When Antiochus said he would think about the Roman's demand the Roman drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him
he would do his thinking within that circle. Antiochus turned and retreated. He was frightened out of Egypt by an unarmed representative of Rome. He was later routed by the Jews.
@game11221 ..To apply this prophecy of a world power a super power which waxed "exceeding great towards the south" to this cruel but weak creature appears to be the height of folly and is advanced merely to avoid or explain away this divine prophecy.
Nowhere in Daniel (or Revelation) do we find a horn growing in the wind detached from a body! Horns do not grow out of the wind! Horns represent kings or divisions of a kingdom. The beast represents the kingdom itself. A horn detached from a body would represent a king with no kingdom
How confusing can it be? SDA say D8:26 (1st part) the word vision (mar'eh) refers 2 some part of the prophecy in D8 which would not be explained to Daniel until 11yrs later, while the vision (chazown) of the same verse (last part) has reference 2 another part of the 1 complete vision. This interpretation makes no sense whatsoever
chapter 9 Daniel had been studying the writings of Jeremiah (D9:2). Daniel's focus was on Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the Jews' 70-year captivity
@game11221 Antiochus Epiphanes was one of the weakest of the kings of Syria. He gave himself the name “Epiphanes = "The Illustrious". Prideaux, history says that this title could not be more alien to his character. The Syrian people called him “Epimanes" - "The Madman".
@upholdingthetruth Rome did not have any contact with the Jewish nation until 161 BC. How could the little horn have begun its desecrating work in 457 BC
Rome lived peacefully with the Jewish nation & did not even molest the Jews until after Palestine became a part of the Roman Empire in 63 BC. How could the little horn be "trampling underfoot" the Sanctuary for nearly 400 years when it never even interfered with the sanctuary service during that time period?
@up D8:10 is not talking about heavenly beings, bc no empire, has cast down heavenly beings. Bible & the Jewish Apocrypha use similar language to describe the priests & rulers of the Hebrew people. Examples
Sons of Jacob are described in Joseph's dream as being stars(Gen37:9)
Isaiah 24:21 the Jewish rulers are called...the host of the high ones that are on high.
2nd Mac9:10 Antiochus is described as "the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven
@game11221 The prophecy points to not only a persecuting power that would “cast down some to the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them?” But he also "magnified himself even to the Prince of the host"(Christ) Daniel 8:10, 11. "He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" Christ. Daniel 8:25. This Rome did but Antiochus died 164 years before Christ. Antiochus just does not meet the specifications of prophecy.
@upholdingthetruth If Papal Rome is the little horn of Daniel 8 during the latter part of the 2300 days, then what happened to papal Rome on October 22, 1844?
If pagan Rome neither persecuted the Jews nor stopped the sacrifices in 457 BC, and if there is no event in papal history to coincide with the close of the 2300 days in 1844, then how can we possibly attach Rome to this prophecy?
As to the South - "Antiochus entered Egypt, and fought against [its king] Ptolemy Philometer, king of it, took many cities, and besieged Alexandria; and in all probability would have subdued the whole country, had not the Romans restrained him
@u According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be 6yrs, 3 months & 18 days. This time period began on the 15 day of the month Cisleu, in the yr 145 of the Selucidae, in which Antiochus set up the Abomination of Desolation upon the altar of God. See how the Jewish lunar year works. Fits perfectly
@upholdingthetruth Maccabeus rose up and started a revolt against Antiochus. For over three years he struggled and fought against the armies of Antiochus. Finally, he was victorious over Nicanor, on the thirteenth day of the month Adar, Anno 151, and the power of Antiochus over Judea was broken
If Rome did not start trampling the sanctuary until 70AD, when who was the little horn power that was trampling the Sanctuary between 457BC and 70AD?
Is it proper for sda to switch from interpretting D8 as literal to symbolic when their interpretation fails? Is this a valid method of interpretting the Bible?
Papacy did not even arise to pre-eminence until 538 AD. So who was "trampling underfoot" the heavenly Sanctuary for 500 years prior to the advent of the Papacy?
Each, a blasphemous conquering power comes against the people of holy cov
Each, Prince of the cov, his sanctuary & worshippers are cast down
Each, the promise is given that such iniquity shall not triumph forever, inasmuch as God has determined to vindicate His people & truth & pour out His indignation upon the idolatrous persecuting oppressor. Such vindication however is not to take place till the time of the end (D 8:17;11:35,36)after 2300
@game11221 you try and explain Antiochus as the King of the North in Daniel 11
How far north should one go is not the question but rather who does the Old Testament consistently portray as threatening Israel of old from the north? Babylon is repeatedly so depicted. That this is absolutely the correct approach is confirmed by Daniel‟s prophetic sections which offer a consistent line-up of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and a fragmented empire in chapters 2, 7, 8 and 11
@u After his victory, Judas ent Jerusalem,found "sanctuary desolate. Judas immediately directed the sanctuary be rebuilt & cleansed 4 sacred services. Jews commemorate the triumph of Judas w annual feast called Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah).Christ honored this feast by His presence (J10:22) Sanctuary was cleansed by Judas Maccabeus when he purified the holy places, sanctified the courts rebuilt the altar renewed the vessels of the sanctuary & put all in their proper places
@up Jesus referred to the abomination (Dan 9:27) as a warning to His followers that a similar desolation was going to happen to the Jewish nation in the future" shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel(Matt. 24:15)
@game11221 Daniel‟s prophecies (chapters 2, 7, 8 and 10-12) follow the principle of repetition and enlargement, thus the broad-brush picture of the feet of iron and clay as depicting pagan/papal Rome is enlarged by a more detailed view of a ten horned beast and little horn in chapter 7, a little horn in chapter 8 and a northern power in 11:31-45. To introduce a power foreign to chapters 2, 7 and 8 violates this parallelism.
@upholdingthetruth A quick question for you about Daniel8:13-14 which says "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"
Question: Do you agree according to your view that the sanctuary of 8:14 become defiled at the beginning of the 2300 “years” in 457 B. C.?
@upholdingthetruth A question for you about Daniel8:13-14 which says "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
Question: Could you prove according to your view that the sanctuary of 8:14 become defiled at the beginning of the 2300 “years” in 457 B. C.?
@upholdingthetruth This abomination happened in 68AD Roman armies - Cestius surrounded Jerusalem, placing banners within the sacred area that extended beyond the temple, thereby profaning it. The Christians recognized this as the sign to depart from Jerusalem, When Cestius temporarily broke off siege, Christians departed not1 Christian died in the subsequent siege - destruction
Little Horn of Daniel 7 rises out of an already existing horn rises out of an already existing horn associated with a beast representing the 4th empire
Little Horn of Daniel 8 associated with a beast representing the 3rd empire
Daniel 7 Rises directly out of the head of the beast
@game11221 "This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing of work in the sanctuary above" {GC 428.1} And I totally agree with it - I'm not watering it down, I'm explaining the why differently, that's all. Just like how James and Paul seemed to write differently about works, but it's just a different approach to the same conclusion.
@ExEGW And it takes away the certainty of salvation? Nah, it doesn't. The only ones without certainty are the fakes. If you do have faith, the IJ has no prob whatsoever.
"He who repents of his sin and accepts the gift of the life of the Son of God, cannot be overcome. Laying hold by faith of the divine nature, he becomes a child of God. He prays, he believes. When tempted and tried, he claims the power that Christ died to give, and overcomes through His grace." {3SM 356.2}
@ExEGW To heaven, to the right hand of God, and began to minister in the heavenly sanctuary by His blood all the way to the Most Holy Place, opening the way to the MHP. I think that last bit is what you're referring to. That isn't against the idea of the IJ, because Christ didn't go to the MHP straight away to do Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur's function was different from the daily. Furthermore, prophetically, it only began after the abomination of desolation (70AD), after Hebrews was written.
Read Lev16 Romans5:11"11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. "
Christ fulfilled every single step of Lev16:
-Christ came as a High Priest to His temple (Heb. 9:11). -He entered by His own blood(Heb. 9:12). -He purified the heavenly copies with His blood(Heb. 9:23) -He appeared before the presence of God(Heb. 9:24) -His blood cleansed His people from sin(Heb. 9:14)
@belojo2003 Jesus didn't fulfill the Day of Atonement, He fulfiled the daily sin offering which was also called atonement. Don't let the lingo trick you.
The Day of Atonement did not finish at the cross, nor did it start (more like it stopped after a while) because of 2 things. 1, The Azazel bit hasn't been done yet. 2, "God's people" corporately stopped repenting of sins (and only started up again in the 18-19th century).
@belojo2003 Oops, correction... It did not start at all at the cross. It was more like... it wasn't time yet... Why did Jesus wait till 4BC to come? I think only God truly knows why He picked that particular time. As such, we don't know exactly why God waited until the 2300 ereb-boqer finished to start Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur couldn't have been at the cross, because Rev 14:6-7 didn't happen then. As for purification of the heavenly copies, Heb 9:18 shows that it's about inauguration.
The Atonement has been completed (see Heb. 10:11-14). At His ascension Christ fulfilled every one of the aspects of the Day of Atonement as described in Leviticus 16:
Christ came as a High Priest to His temple (Heb. 9:11).
@iMattCi89 Answer4 Did Jesus open the way into the Holiest upon His ascension?
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us...(Heb. 10:19,20)"
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy(Heb. 4:16)"
Jesus opened the way for us to enter into the Most Place where is the throne of Grace or the Mercy seat (the Presence of God)
@belojo2003 "Answer4" 1844 wasn't for granting access into the Most Holy. Firstly, your translation is wrong, it's not "holiest", it's "holy places" plural. In other words, when He ascended into heaven, He gave us access to the whole heavenly temple.
1844 wasn't for access, it was for ministry; Jesus' work.
@iMattCi89 Answer3 Where is the "presence of God"?
"LORD said unto Moses,Speak unto Aaron thy brother,that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat,which is upon the ark; that he die not:for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.(Lev16:2)
The place of the Lord's presence in the Old Test. tabernacle was upon the mercy seat in the Holiest Place.Christ must have entered in the MHP to appear before the mercy seat of God or God's presence
@belojo2003 "Christ must have entered in the MHP to appear before the mercy seat of God or God's presence" True, but once again, the language used doesn't fit Yom Kippur. Paul's referring to the inauguration of the new covenant and showing there's no need for Him to offer Himself continuously for sins.
"can enter" does not equal to "ministry completed" because even the Israelites couldn't enter. The veil represented that the way to the heavenly temple wasn't there yet.
@iMattCi89 Were does it say, 1st apartment = ministry & 2nd = cleansing in Heb9?
What it does say, 1st apt = Jewish era because the cross had not come, 2nd apt = our Lord -cross,resurrection,ascension. the way 2 the MHP is shown not 1844 but cross
This is the context! This is the context! This is the context!
Please dont ask, well what is he doing? I go to prepare a place 4 you. I sit at the right hand of God until the world is made my foot stool.
@iMattCi89 Answer2- By comparing the Biblical evidence found in the Old Testament description of the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16) with the New Testament description of the Day of Atonement (Heb. 9) we will find out exactly when the Day of Atonement happened. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us(Heb. 9:24)". he Bible tells where God's presesnce abide in O.T
When Christ failed to return as predicted in 1844,Adventists devised a teaching to try and explain that something had actually happened in 1844.According to this teaching, the heavenly Day of Atonement began in 1844 and Jesus moved from one room of the sanctuary to another room, shutting the door behind Him. Ellen said "This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844(Ellen White,Early Writings, p. 42.)"
@belojo2003 ...It clear from the Bible that the earthly sanctuary is the copy of the one above. Christ has become our high Priest and in so doing has become the fulfilment of
what the earthly sanctuary stood for..If he had entered the MOST HOLY PLACE at his ressurection,then when during his Ministry did he enter the HOLY PLACE and with what blood?...please give me biblical evidence..if you can't then you still have a lot to learn!
@upholdingthetruth
Your theory fell flat ..... jereremiah 31:32.... (IT WILL NOT BE LIKE THE COVENANT) I MADE WITH THEIR ANCESTORS WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF EGYPT .... if the cove was 10c in egypt and he give us a different one how can it be the same ? Wow ... your just stuck on egw
jethro3232 1 hour ago
@upholdingthetruth
Matthew 5:18 .... no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled ...... john 19:30 .... states its finised
jethro3232 4 hours ago
@upholdingthetruth
Matthew 5:17- 18 is talking about law of moses luke 24:44 ..... so you save it and sacrifice a animal cause your dog poop in your neibor yard
jethro3232 4 hours ago
@upholdthetruth
Luke 24:44 .... He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you : Everything must be FULFILLED that is writtent about me in the LAW OF MOSES the PROPHETS AND PSALMS ...... WHAT DID HE NOT COME TO DESTROY ANYBODY ?
jethro3232 8 hours ago
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@jethro3232 dude!..I cannot make sense of what you're saying!
upholdingthetruth 5 hours ago
I said the 10c is put to the side obsolete no longer in use .........Mt 5:18 is the book of the law ........ I never said abolished but you keep thinking I say 10c ..... 10c is put to the side
jethro3232 13 hours ago
@jethro3232 hahahaha!...change of tone!...thank you my friend..why have you changed tune!!
upholdingthetruth 13 hours ago
@jethro3232 ...in your own words..the law is obsolete but it is not abolished..I find it fascinating that you can use two negatives in one sentence..lol..my friend Jesus was speaking figuratively..Paul used the word "nullify" when he said in Romans 3:31"Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith? NOT AT ALL! Rather, we uphold the law."
NULLIFY = OBSOLETE..
so if you cannot nullify (render obsolete) the law by faith..and cannot destroy the law
till heaven and earth pass away..where do you stand?
upholdingthetruth 12 hours ago
@upholdingthetruth From what i see you look at Mat5:18 completely out of context and meaning.Pay attention of what Jesus meant by "till all is accomplished and the least of these commandments v.18,19"
Mat:5:20"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"
+all the way till verse 40.
He gave them NC laws.OC law had his purpose but NC is much superior in every way
VESANG 12 hours ago
@VESANG..so what is the new covenant my friend?
upholdingthetruth 11 hours ago
@upholdingthetruth You tell me my brother what is a NC.I wish Christians would not ask this question but as long as we let somebody else interpret the Bible for us /in this case SDA although not limited to just SDA/ we are easily submitted under cults all over the place.
Search "new covenant" in NT and you will see it's nothing like SDA teaches.NC has mediator,blood and laws just as the OC but...far away superior.Paul describes OC as shadow,the body of NC is Christ himself
VESANG 11 hours ago
@VESANG oh I see..so the NC is christ himself!hmm..so if you're a christian..how does a Christian manifest Christ?
upholdingthetruth 10 hours ago
@upholdingthetruth
Lol you think that scares me ...... according to you nobody found biblical evidence that its abolished soo it showes how smart you are trying to use that on me ...... lol ... what a jk
jethro3232 13 hours ago
@jethro3232..even @Ex EGW is confused about Matt 5:18..he says it refers to the books of Moses..what!..so are we to keep the ceremonial laws as well?..something is wrong with Jesus I guess..don't you think?..right now I'm still seeing the heavens,birds flying and um!..oh! I thought I was in the new earth but wait .... Obama is the President of the US..ok ok I'm still on earth..so may be I should go sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness because my dog pooed in my neighbours backyard!
upholdingthetruth 14 hours ago
@upholdingthetruth
What did Jesus says on the cross with his last breathe...."it is finished!'
It seems you may be ignoring this statement when you promote the Old Covenant Laws. These were between Israel and God. The Ten Commandments are known as the Stone Tablets of that covenant ( found many times in scripture ). Now you cannot have a foot in both camps. Choose what covenant you are under. As to Matt 5 the Law and the Prophets represent the entire old testament, yes fulfilled by Christ.
ExEGW 8 hours ago
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@ExEGW.. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" Heb. 10:16..my friend the law is the same.. nothing is new...what was written on stone is now written in the heart that is why it's new..the law was upheld by the death of a lamb then..now the law is upheld by the death of christ..that is why christ broadened the implications of the law
upholdingthetruth 5 hours ago
@jethro3232...trying to find some solace from ex-adventists..lol..I'm just letting people no that you are not able to give scriptural evidence that the law was abolished..I hope I have made myself clear!
upholdingthetruth 14 hours ago
@ExEGW
You must have proven uphold wrong cause he attacks me in another room about the book of moses ...... its funny how he did not defend ur answer but go into another room and tells me I can't prove it ...... lol
jethro3232 15 hours ago
Titus 1:6 if a man is blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
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1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
..there is not one Scripture in the New Testament about polygamy being permissable or being good.
How many wives did Adam have in Gen.2:24? One. God did not take two wives out from his side. Monogamy has always been God's standard for the human race. From the very beginning God set the pattern by creating a monogamous marriage relationship - one man and one woman, Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:27; 2:21-25).
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
Was Abraham, David Solomon condemned or approved for practicing polygamy? Well they certainly did not get blessed for it! In fact every polygamist in the Bible like David and Solomon (1 Chron. 14:3) were punished. This should be evidence that this is not God’s will. Scripture has always commanded monogamy (Ps.128:3; Prov. 5:18; 18:22; 19:14; 31:10-29; Eccl. 9:9).
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
In the Bible there are about 15 examples of polygamy from the time of Lamech to the first century. These men had enough power that no one could call into question their practice, they were unaccountable.Polygamy is mentioned in the Mosaic law and made inclusive on the basis of legislation, it continued to be practiced through the period of Jewish history.
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
Hebrews 13:3-4 “Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.”
upholdingthetruth 16 hours ago
Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
oneworldkingdom 17 hours ago
@oneworldkingdom on a diff note, not debating here, so what do you think, it is ok for a man to have more than 1 wife and EVEN sex with a servant, but its not ok for a women to do the same as the man is allowed. Interesting
So one does it, it's called adultery the other does it and it's not called adultery.
Something is bothersome about that. But in the NC even if we lust in our heart of a women then we commit adultery
game11221 17 hours ago
@game11221 What does this have to do with me or my comment?
oneworldkingdom 16 hours ago
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Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
oneworldkingdom 17 hours ago
Catholics are shutting down many of their schools because they can't keep them open. There is a war on religion and Catholicism is on its way out. SDAs claim that Catholicism will one day be forced on the world. This is not the case. Catholicism and all false religion is about to meet its end. All of these advent movements are in the ball park. But only one has it completely right. The JWs have got it right. And today they are the fastest growing Christian religion in the world.
oneworldkingdom 17 hours ago
@uphold
The law still exist for the lawless one it brings you to christ ....... those who are in christ is not under the law but under grace
jethro3232 1 day ago
@uphold
I read ur sill lil post ...... u said the law exist in heaven but sin came BEFORE the LAW was given ..... THE LAW WAS GIVEN AT MT SINAI
jethro3232 1 day ago
@uphold
Romans 5:12-13...therefore just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all people because all sinned... to be sure sin was in the world before the law was given but sin is not charged to anyone account where there is no law ..... ( sin was in the world before the law was givien and adam had sin so tell me how was the law out before mt sinai
jethro3232 1 day ago
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@jethro3232 Adam's sin was not transgression of God's law, the 10C. But he still transgressed. What he transgressed was a specific command by God not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't God's law, but it was still disobedience, which is why satan could lay claim to human race.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@jethro3232 ..silly explanation..does not make any sense at all! read my post below my friend and read the text Romans 4:15
upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
@jethro3232 to make it simple for you...
If there is no law then there is not sin!!..understand..it goes hand in hand..one cannot go without the other..!!!
so if there is sin..there is law!...you've got to make sense of scripture my friend.. not just interpreting scriptures because certain phrases or words are missing!
interpreting
upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
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@jethro3232 And yet, the Bible is also clear that sin is the transgression of the law. What does this mean? There's also evidence that some of the 10C was known before Sinai. There's a solution that brings both sides to agreement - that the 10C was known verbally in some form, but not as a law, and that the 10C was given in writing as a law at Sinai.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
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upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
@jethro3232.. don't kiss @game11221's hand just because he ridicules the SDA church..
his theology is different from yours as he still believes in the existence of the law..
upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
@upholdingthetruth Compare your understanding about the law with SDA and EGW claiming that the law is eternal /before sin and after sin/ Deut.5:3"Not with our ancestors did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today"
The cycle of commandments and punishments was not there till Adams sin.
Original Hebrew first time of "God commanded" is when God told Noah to built the Ark.
You made valid points but there is much more than SDA scripture twist
VESANG 1 day ago
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@jethro3232 A better question you should be asking, is how God could punish the human race by destroying them with the Flood if His law did not exist? This isn't about whether it was given in stone, but whether it existed. Sin can't be taken into account if the law didn't exist. In other words, it existed, but was not given yet in the form of commandment because He hadn't yet called out a special people to represent what He stands for.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
Ellen was too busy copying other writer's books to figure this out for herself.
ExEGW 1 day ago
We are released from the Law because we are now living in a different realm (country - called the Kingdom of Heaven). Different Laws apply.
Foe example - the Sabbath is now kept in a different way, a much superior way, an indwelling relationship not just once a week. If we say we need to keep the Sabbath to draw near to God then we have missed the whole point of the New Covenant. In the New Covenant 'today' is the day of rest in Christ, we don't wait till the 7th day comes around.
ExEGW 1 day ago
@ExEGW The Sabbath has never been the way to access rest in God. It has always been a reminder of resting in God by physically experiencing it. Do we need to? Bad question, because it's not a matter of needing to. A Christian experience must never be a "need to" because then it becomes a religion of whim.
The Sabbath is supposed to remember to kind of rest God had after creating. A day of enjoying the provisions of God throughout the week. God did not rest from sin.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@iMattCi89 The Sabbath was not a commandment at the beginning.There was just the SABBATH and did not have evening and morning.Gen 2:1-3.
In the new earth there will not be sunsets and sunrise and so THE SABBATH returns to original state.
God himself is the light and the rest and the temple as you can see Rev21:23,Rev22:5"They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light..."
Read your Bible.OT law is not eternal as SDA teaches
VESANG 1 day ago
@VESANG "The Sabbath was not a commandment at the beginning" Does it need to be? The law "don't commit adultery" wasn't given as commandment until Sinai, but was still recognised as God's law by Joseph. The 4th commandment isn't isn't a command to keep the Sabbath, it's to remember to keep the Sabbath. The command's to remember. While there won't be 24 hr days in the new earth, that doesn't mean it ends. For it to end, would be to imply that God's sanctification can be revoked.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@iMattCi89
You are placing the Stone Tablets of the Covenant in a position of high honour and this this should not be done. Paul was very much against.
The Holy Spirit strongly illuminated Paul's mind to the truth of the New Covenant. You appear to be overlooking this truth. Remember, the Law came through Moses but grace and 'truth' came through Jesus Christ. Let us focus on this truth.
I think you see the Bible as one book without a division between the old and new testament?
ExEGW 1 day ago
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@ExEGW "Paul was very much against" No, he wasn't against keeping the law of God. What he was against, was people making the sacrifices of Jewish feasts and circumcision, a test of fellowship and acceptance and method of salvation. Martin Luther considered Romans the clearest gospel. And I agree; in it I find the proper place for the law of God with faith. Not salvation by works, but the inevitable work of the Spirit changing our affections. And FYI, Paul's letters wasn't their scripture.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@iMattCi89
The old covenant ( the Ten Commandments ) was an agreement between Israel and God with Moses as the mediator. You seem to be bush-wacking this agreement and trying to ram it somehow into the New Testament. This is not good, in fact it is very bad! We should be listening to Jesus who is our mediator, not Moses.
ExEGW 1 day ago
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@ExEGW "The old covenant ( the Ten Commandments ) was an agreement" No, the 10C was not the agreement. It was the terms of the agreement. The agreement itself -> On God's side "I will be your God and protect you from calamity". On the Hebrews' side "We will do all that you tell us to do in your law".
This is evident by Jeremiah 31:33, which shows that the new covenant is about God putting His law into the hearts and minds. In other words, law does not equal to covenant, but conditions.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@ExEGW wrong..where is your prove text that the law was done away with in the new testament..Matt 5:18"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."..heaven and earth hath not passed away yet my friend, and so his law still stands..Moses was never a mediator..the sacrificing of an unblemished lamb was the way of seeking pardon..pointing to Christ, mediator and the ultimate lamb..!
upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
@upholdingthetruth
Your comment on Matt5/18 contains error.
The Law refered to here is the books of Moses..
ExEGW 22 hours ago
@ExEGW Great points and if we add that Mat.5:18 refers not just to the entire OC law to be fulfilled by Jesus but it also points to the promised NEW SUPERIOR COVENANT /of the Spirit/. Jesus describes THOSE SMALLEST COMMANDMENTS which the leaders did not even know exist in Mat.5:20-48 ...He completely shocked the accusers with new set of commandments challenging the very foundation of understanding they had about the law.
VESANG 21 hours ago
@iMattCi89 Hi,u made a interesting point as 2 Joseph. But the problem is, it was unlawful sleep with another mans women & a woman that belongs to a man couldn't be with another man. BUT a man could be with many women (Abraham) had a wife & a slave women. Now if the 10c were there at that time, then Abraham committed adultery & others 2. so right there shows the law was not given until Moses
& God said, not like the law I gave when I lead them out of ... thats OC law (TC)
game11221 1 day ago
@game11221 Er... sorry to burst your bubble on this, but... polygamy (multiple wives) was practiced up until Jesus' time. It isn't forbidden by 10C or the the other laws. It's not forbidden, but not recommended either (1 Tim 3:2,12). After all, no man can serve two masters, right? hehe ^_^ ;-)
"not like the law I gave" actually Jeremiah 31:32 says "not like the covenant I made with their fathers". Like I said before, the law isn't the covenant, it's the terms, the words of the pact.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@iMattCi89
Was the Law introduced at Mt Sinai? Yes.
Gal 3 The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was 'added' because of transgressions 'until' the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Jesus and Paul state that the Law was introduced at Mt Sinai.
Why believe Ellen?
ExEGW 23 hours ago
@game11221.. it is fascinating to note that most christians believe that the law was not given until moses..the law was in existent long before sinai..Romans 4:15"Because the law worketh wrath: FOR WHERE NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANGRESSION."..transgression began in heaven by Lucifer..so my friend where there is transgression there is law!!
upholdingthetruth 1 day ago
distinction of chazon & mareh— words translated as vision’ This is enough to make any Hebraist, not paid by the denomination, weep. Words R used interchangeably, anyone can see by using a Strong’s Concordance Chazon refers 2 the ecstatic experience of prophetic vision & mareh 2 its contents. latter comes from root meaning ‘2 see’ Mareh is found manyl times in later chapters of Dan its not limited 2 the detail overheard concerning the 2300 evening-mornings. O that the sda might play fair
game11221 2 days ago
Its not a practice of the OT 2 separate the 2 advents. Kingdom of God is seen as a unit ushered in by the death of the Messiah & consummated at his return. Parallel passage Dan7:13-14 cited by Christ in Matt28:18 applying 2 him do 2 the victory of the Cross. ch2 & 7 cover same ground with the Son replacing the stone. Similarly, D9:24 comprehends both advents. Legally—though not empirically— sin, transgression & iniquity, were finished by the 1st advent
game11221 2 days ago
The Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant...
He wrote on the TABLETS the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments...Ex 34/28.
The Christian abides under the New Covenant.
Simple, isn't it?
ExEGW 2 days ago
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@ExEGW That was how the Hebrews understood it, because to them, the terms and conditions were used to title the covenant. For example, the covenant of circumcision. Circumcision wasn't the covenant, but the terms of the covenant.
In the same way, the 10 Commandments was the terms of the covenant, but not in and of itself the covenant. Covenant means solemn pact/promise.
iMattCi89 1 day ago
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To all SDAs and non SDAs We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
No Ellen=No1844= true doctrines
belojo2003 3 days ago
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Can U explain? EW prophecies
EW will be alive when Jesus returns, England will attack the USA, Civil War is a sign Jesus is about 2 return, 1850's EW said Jesus will return in a few months, Adventists living in 1856 will be alive when Jesus returns, EW saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn
Added scripture
Satan offered a pardon in heaven, Angels would have died 4 man, Some races are a mixture of man & beast, Jesus died 4 angels, Takes 7 days 2 get 2 heaven, Angels have golden access cards
game11221 3 days ago
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game11221 3 days ago
"The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility ... The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit." {DA 172.1}
iMattCi89 4 days ago
@iMattCi89 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the NEW COVENANT, not of the
letter but of the Spirit; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life.
3:7 But if the MINISTRY of death, written and engraved on STONES, WAS (past
tense) glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at
the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was
PASSING AWAY,
game11221 3 days ago
@iMattCi89 WOW some of what u said is good (own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility)
BUT there is a problem!
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118
game11221 3 days ago
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@game11221 "WOW some of what u said is good" Actually, 0% of the words in quotation marks that you refer to were mine. I copied directly from Desire of Ages and Signs of the Times, words directly from Ellen White.
As for that quote from SDA Bible commentary, it's the truth! Imputed righteousness is just a statues. The holiness of Adam before sin wasn't imputed, it was a state of being. That can only come by obeying God (not transgress) and faith in Christ (to deliver [Acts 26:18])
iMattCi89 1 day ago
@iMatt And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD waiting for that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author & perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame & has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
game11221 3 days ago
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@game11221 We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
SDAs defend her because they have no light...
belojo2003 3 days ago
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@game11221 "SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD" Stephen's vision had Jesus standing. My point is that whether Jesus is "standing" or "sitting", does not equal to stopping. Paul was quoting from Psalm 110:1. In Hebrew, the word for "sit" can either be literal, or a manner of speech. It can mean remain/linger/dwell. The same for "right hand". It can either mean a literal position, or a manner of speech as "the power man executing the wishes of the king".
iMattCi89 1 day ago
{B}.... but they can not change the heart; they can not purify the soul. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before man can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness." {ST, May 28, 1902 par. 3}
iMattCi89 4 days ago
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@iMattCi89 A question outside the subject: We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture?--> False prophet!
Go back to our previous subject after reply
belojo2003 3 days ago
(Rom 8:9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Rom 8:7) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere; but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, ...{B}
iMattCi89 4 days ago
@iM Woman who has a husband is bound by the law 2 her husband long as he lives But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. While her husband lives, she marries another man, she is a adulteress; but if her husband dies she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man Brethren u also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that u may be married to another- 2 Him who was raised from the dead
game11221 3 days ago
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@game11221 @VESANG I'm praying for both of you - because of you just don't understand that the IJ has never been about salvation by works, but the judging of your heart. It's the question of "Is Christ the rule of your heart and actions?" Being wedded to Christ is more than a title or simple belief - it's being ONE with Him. That's what the IJ is - seeing if you are doing the works of Christ because by the fruit of the tree will we know if the tree the branch is attached to is truly Christ.
iMattCi89 4 days ago
To Adventism's harshest critics, I could quote Jesus’ words about planks and splinters in eyes, but I think the pithy rhyme, 'he who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones’ is perhaps just as poignant.
upholdingthetruth 6 days ago
When Stephen was hit in the head with a stone the result was that he saw heaven open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God (Acts7)
When Ellen was hit in the head with a stone the result was she saw 1844.
She was a naughty girl.
Someone should have spanked her bottom and told her to stop her silly nonsense!
ExEGW 1 week ago
@ExEGW i wouldnt be talking because Ellen said that there was a gap in the constellation of Orion...no one believed her because there was no such thing then after she died scientists found a massive gap in the belt of Orion...i though that was weird lol
hoper2302 1 week ago
@hoper2302
Yeah, I wonder which book she copied that from?
ExEGW 1 week ago
@hoper2302 Why do you focus on Orion statement vs all the failed prophecies...she claimed for all of those :"said the Angel...I was shown..."
Is it fair to ask what kind of angel she communicated with .../even if we assume her statement about Orion was true/ ..which one is more important Orion knowledge /that fallen angel could have reveled to her/ or failed prophecies ?
What do you think our criteria /referent point/ should be?
VESANG 1 week ago
When Stephen was hit in the head with a stone the result was that he saw heaven open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God (Acts7)
When Ellen was hit in the head with a stone the result was she saw 1844.
She was a naughty girl and someone should have smacked her bottom and told her to cut out her nonsense!
ExEGW 1 week ago
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@ExEGW EGW saw her work under attack in her day...and had always been till
today..even after her death..Why bother if you don't believe it?..It's obvious that the truth
has pricked the naughty little bottoms of ex- adventists who don't study their bibles like Ex EGW
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@ExEGW I think it's time for "mattCi89" to give up just as previous SDAs did here because we have disproved him. I thank you for taking time to disprove the SDA false teachings. I am by you side everywhere you see them teaching wrong thing to people. I will join you into this fight because we have to disprove the message of false prophets in Jesus name.
God bless you. love you in Jesus name
belojo2003 1 week ago
@belojo2003
Hi, I think you meant this for Game11221 however well done to the both of you!
ExEGW 1 week ago
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@ExEGW ..why are you disassociating yourself..guilty?
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@belojo2003 btw, I haven't forgotten your long list of "problems". It's really long and will take a while.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 PART 1
EW. The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies at the 7th month 1844
Notice, A vision!!!!
game11221 1 week ago
@iM keep watch, because u do not know the day or the hour” Mat25:13
“No 1 knows about that day or hr, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” Mat24:36
“It is not for u to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority” Acts 1:7
EGW His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods
EGW “I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was his design to arouse the people
Think about this
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 Quoting Mat 25:13 doesn’t cover the Father’s privilege to reveal it if He so chooses. But I’m not saying that God gave a lie. What God did was show that the sanctuary was to undergo cleansing, but He blocked people from understanding what “sanctuary” meant. So, as is common with humans, they filled in the gap from the common conceptions of the time. To deny that this happened, would also deny that it is impossible for any person to understand the Gospel ...[pt B]
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@game11221 [pt B] ..unless God removes the block to understanding, because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart, remember? [Rom 9:17-18] The disciples misinterpreted the prophecies concerning Jesus even though they knew the time of fulfilment of prophecy was at hand; did that make them agents of Satan? Or was it just that their understanding was blocked? Based on the parable of the 10 virgins, the Millerites... [pt C]
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@game11221 [pt C] ..believed that they were given that midnight cry “Behold, the bridegroom is coming!” So they preached it – and fruits of repentance and righteousness were the result. People like Canning who preached a definite time that wasn’t given by God, did not have their followers repent and live holy lives. That was the difference between misguided proclamations and the Advent cry of 1844. If it was of Satan, ...[pt D]
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMat To defend the sda doctrine is ur right, it's ur belief, be it right or wrong
U see it as all truth. Were, When I was a sda, I truly felt the same as u. Hell I thought everybody else was wrong & we sda had it right. I knew no better, the sda theology is all I knew
But doing bible study with a sda pastor, I found scrip that he used did not hold true with context, red flag! So I started to research the sda doctrines if true or error. I took off sda glasses & looked 4 truth
game11221 6 days ago
@game11221 good on you...so what is the truth?
upholdingthetruth 6 days ago
@upholdingthetruth
The truth is that you -think- you know better than us. You even call yourself ' upholdingthetruth'!
I doubt you even understand the New Covenant?
ExEGW 5 days ago
@up U have to take off ur sda glasses & as 2 any denomination 1 is in 4 search for truth. Do I know all? NOPE
Is there SOME truth in the sda? YES
Legalism manifest to cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ to Christ is manifested in faith, hope & love, anymore then that it becomes heretical, it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ does not imply legalism but works as a method of salvation does & will be lost
game11221 5 days ago
@game11221 [pt D] ...he wouldn’t suffer to have any true repentance and dedication to holy living. As for quoting Acts 1:7, that would apply to the 1260 days as well if you think it applies to us. Jesus was answering them, not speaking to us. However, we know that Jesus wants us to understand the 1260 days, because in Revelation He declared it should be understood. In other words, understanding of time prophecies was not for the disciples to know, but for the future generations.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 I could re-counter your defense 2 the shut door, date setting, whats the point, because if EW said, one is saved by works, then you would believe it. If she said cinnamon is BAD FOR YOU, YOU WOULD NOT EAT IT.
If Bates promulgated a theory first then EW would have a vision on it.
Look EW did say many great things, a lot was copied from others, but there is error to.
If you were a Mormon in a debate, you would be defending there doctrine just as you do the sda doctrine
game11221 6 days ago
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@game11221 "if EW said, one is saved by works, then you would believe it" HAHA! ROFL; I believe her precisely because she doesn't!
"If she said cinnamon is BAD FOR YOU, YOU WOULD NOT EAT IT" I have to stifle a giggle on this one, because in chinese medicine, too much cinnamon's also a bad thing. It's common knowledge now that overly spiced stuff ain't good for the stomach.
"If Bates promulgated a theory first then EW would have a vision on it." Really? I'd like a list of occurrences
iMattCi89 4 days ago
Antiochus Epiphanes and Daniel 11
The most convincing evidence that Daniel 8 is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes is the fact that Daniel 11 explains the prophecy of Daniel 8 in greater detail, and the little horn is interpreted from verse 21 onwards. While Uriah Smith has tried to tailor history to make it fit the prophecy, his explanation is but a travesty. Only Antiochus truly fits the specifications.
game11221 1 week ago
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@game11221 .Rome (pagan/papal) fits exactly to the little horn in Daniel 8
-it "waxed exceedingly great" vs 9 ..whilst the goat waxed "very great"
-it "magnified himself even to the Prince of the host"(christ) vs 10,11
-"He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" (christ). vs 25.
-"he shall be broken without hand" vs 25, he will last until the end of time where he will
be destroyed by God
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@game11221 1.Antiochus view was originated by Porphyry (Died AD 304). Porphyry was a pagan whose one aim was to stop the advance of Christianity. His theory was not to expound Daniel but to discredit and deny Daniel as a prophet. He did not try to confirm the Bible, but to deny it's divine origin. It was a pagan attack to hold back Christianity's inroads into paganism.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@game11221 2..Daniel therefore, according to this theory, was not a prophet but merely an historian. It was the amazing accuracy of the sure word of prophecy and its uncanny fulfillment that made Porphyry claim Daniel was written after the events of Antiochus, hence was not a prophecy at all. Such is the origin of this God dishonoring
and truth opposing theory.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth interesting, Even the Jews, take D8 as to Antiochus. they even celebrate the day good old Mac, restored the temple serves. This day is called Hanukkah.And Christ held it to
Even Christ thought He was coming back soon & so did his disciples, surly they knew the word. I guess they did not see it, only the sda 1800 yrs latter figured it out, That came out date setting the the bible says not to. Sad thing is, Oct. 23 1844 is the wrong date
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 3.His persecutions did not last even 3.5 literal years.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@game11221 4.Antiochus was not a horn or a kingdom. A Horn of a beast is never taken for a single person, but signifies a new kingdom. The "four horns" of the He-goat were "four kingdoms" (Daniel 8:22). Antiochus was merely one of a line of kings and not a separate kingdom. Hence he was merely a part of one of the horns. Antiochus reigned over one of the four horns and "the little horn" was a fifth power. Therefore, Antiochus was not the "little horn". Rome was "the little horn.”.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth As to sda starting date, and Dan8 2300 that sda imply 2300 yrs, started in 457bc, (d8:13) How long will the sanctuary be desecrated? So, What desecrated the Sanctuary in 457 BC?
and what sanctuary the one on earth or the one in heaven? I know sda start with the earthly then move to the heavenly. how convenient.
Again what desecrated the temp;e in 457bc?
Sda say sins of the saints bible says the little horn
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 5.Antiochus certainly did not "wax exceeding great". He was not even the strongest of the Seleucid section of Alexander's kingdom. Antiochus was weak and was tributary to the Romans.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@game11221 6.Antiochus certainly did not wax "exceeding great towards the south" Daniel 8:9. His march to the south" to Egypt was stopped by the mere word of an unarmed Roman officer. When Antiochus said he would think about the Roman's demand the Roman drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him
he would do his thinking within that circle. Antiochus turned and retreated. He was frightened out of Egypt by an unarmed representative of Rome. He was later routed by the Jews.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
Part A
The idea of a horn growing out of the wind not only seems odd, it also violates the symbol's visual unity. Note the visionary sequence:
Goat appears with a great horn between its eyes
The Goat's horn is broken off
In its place grow 4 horns
Out of 1 of these 4 horns comes another horn
All horns are still linked to the body of the goat(Greece)
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 ..To apply this prophecy of a world power a super power which waxed "exceeding great towards the south" to this cruel but weak creature appears to be the height of folly and is advanced merely to avoid or explain away this divine prophecy.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth
part B
Nowhere in Daniel (or Revelation) do we find a horn growing in the wind detached from a body! Horns do not grow out of the wind! Horns represent kings or divisions of a kingdom. The beast represents the kingdom itself. A horn detached from a body would represent a king with no kingdom
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 His push to the east resulted in his death. He certainly did not wax "exceeding great" in that direction
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
How confusing can it be? SDA say D8:26 (1st part) the word vision (mar'eh) refers 2 some part of the prophecy in D8 which would not be explained to Daniel until 11yrs later, while the vision (chazown) of the same verse (last part) has reference 2 another part of the 1 complete vision. This interpretation makes no sense whatsoever
chapter 9 Daniel had been studying the writings of Jeremiah (D9:2). Daniel's focus was on Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the Jews' 70-year captivity
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 Antiochus Epiphanes was one of the weakest of the kings of Syria. He gave himself the name “Epiphanes = "The Illustrious". Prideaux, history says that this title could not be more alien to his character. The Syrian people called him “Epimanes" - "The Madman".
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth Rome did not have any contact with the Jewish nation until 161 BC. How could the little horn have begun its desecrating work in 457 BC
Rome lived peacefully with the Jewish nation & did not even molest the Jews until after Palestine became a part of the Roman Empire in 63 BC. How could the little horn be "trampling underfoot" the Sanctuary for nearly 400 years when it never even interfered with the sanctuary service during that time period?
game11221 1 week ago
@up D8:10 is not talking about heavenly beings, bc no empire, has cast down heavenly beings. Bible & the Jewish Apocrypha use similar language to describe the priests & rulers of the Hebrew people. Examples
Sons of Jacob are described in Joseph's dream as being stars(Gen37:9)
Isaiah 24:21 the Jewish rulers are called...the host of the high ones that are on high.
2nd Mac9:10 Antiochus is described as "the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 The prophecy points to not only a persecuting power that would “cast down some to the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them?” But he also "magnified himself even to the Prince of the host"(Christ) Daniel 8:10, 11. "He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" Christ. Daniel 8:25. This Rome did but Antiochus died 164 years before Christ. Antiochus just does not meet the specifications of prophecy.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth If Papal Rome is the little horn of Daniel 8 during the latter part of the 2300 days, then what happened to papal Rome on October 22, 1844?
If pagan Rome neither persecuted the Jews nor stopped the sacrifices in 457 BC, and if there is no event in papal history to coincide with the close of the 2300 days in 1844, then how can we possibly attach Rome to this prophecy?
game11221 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth
As to the South - "Antiochus entered Egypt, and fought against [its king] Ptolemy Philometer, king of it, took many cities, and besieged Alexandria; and in all probability would have subdued the whole country, had not the Romans restrained him
game11221 1 week ago
@u According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be 6yrs, 3 months & 18 days. This time period began on the 15 day of the month Cisleu, in the yr 145 of the Selucidae, in which Antiochus set up the Abomination of Desolation upon the altar of God. See how the Jewish lunar year works. Fits perfectly
game11221 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth Maccabeus rose up and started a revolt against Antiochus. For over three years he struggled and fought against the armies of Antiochus. Finally, he was victorious over Nicanor, on the thirteenth day of the month Adar, Anno 151, and the power of Antiochus over Judea was broken
game11221 1 week ago
If Rome did not start trampling the sanctuary until 70AD, when who was the little horn power that was trampling the Sanctuary between 457BC and 70AD?
Is it proper for sda to switch from interpretting D8 as literal to symbolic when their interpretation fails? Is this a valid method of interpretting the Bible?
Papacy did not even arise to pre-eminence until 538 AD. So who was "trampling underfoot" the heavenly Sanctuary for 500 years prior to the advent of the Papacy?
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 If a power meets some of the specifications but not all of them, then it must be rejected.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
Theme same D8 is enlarged in D11
Each, a blasphemous conquering power comes against the people of holy cov
Each, Prince of the cov, his sanctuary & worshippers are cast down
Each, the promise is given that such iniquity shall not triumph forever, inasmuch as God has determined to vindicate His people & truth & pour out His indignation upon the idolatrous persecuting oppressor. Such vindication however is not to take place till the time of the end (D 8:17;11:35,36)after 2300
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 you try and explain Antiochus as the King of the North in Daniel 11
How far north should one go is not the question but rather who does the Old Testament consistently portray as threatening Israel of old from the north? Babylon is repeatedly so depicted. That this is absolutely the correct approach is confirmed by Daniel‟s prophetic sections which offer a consistent line-up of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and a fragmented empire in chapters 2, 7, 8 and 11
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@u After his victory, Judas ent Jerusalem,found "sanctuary desolate. Judas immediately directed the sanctuary be rebuilt & cleansed 4 sacred services. Jews commemorate the triumph of Judas w annual feast called Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah).Christ honored this feast by His presence (J10:22) Sanctuary was cleansed by Judas Maccabeus when he purified the holy places, sanctified the courts rebuilt the altar renewed the vessels of the sanctuary & put all in their proper places
game11221 1 week ago
@up Jesus referred to the abomination (Dan 9:27) as a warning to His followers that a similar desolation was going to happen to the Jewish nation in the future" shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel(Matt. 24:15)
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 Daniel‟s prophecies (chapters 2, 7, 8 and 10-12) follow the principle of repetition and enlargement, thus the broad-brush picture of the feet of iron and clay as depicting pagan/papal Rome is enlarged by a more detailed view of a ten horned beast and little horn in chapter 7, a little horn in chapter 8 and a northern power in 11:31-45. To introduce a power foreign to chapters 2, 7 and 8 violates this parallelism.
upholdingthetruth 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth A quick question for you about Daniel8:13-14 which says "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"
Question: Do you agree according to your view that the sanctuary of 8:14 become defiled at the beginning of the 2300 “years” in 457 B. C.?
belojo2003 1 week ago
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@upholdingthetruth A question for you about Daniel8:13-14 which says "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
Question: Could you prove according to your view that the sanctuary of 8:14 become defiled at the beginning of the 2300 “years” in 457 B. C.?
belojo2003 1 week ago
@upholdingthetruth This abomination happened in 68AD Roman armies - Cestius surrounded Jerusalem, placing banners within the sacred area that extended beyond the temple, thereby profaning it. The Christians recognized this as the sign to depart from Jerusalem, When Cestius temporarily broke off siege, Christians departed not1 Christian died in the subsequent siege - destruction
game11221 1 week ago
Daniel 7 Comes up in the midst of 10 already existing horns
Daniel 8 rises from 1 of the 4 horns of the 3rd empire
Daniel 7 horn that comes out of a beast Daniel 8 horn that comes out of a horn
Daniel 7 Uproots three horns in its rise Daniel 8 Uproots no horns in its rise
the prophecy, his explanation is but a travesty. Only Antiochus truly fits the specifications.
game11221 1 week ago
Part 1 Different horns from D7 & D8 Lets compare
Little Horn of Daniel 7 rises out of an already existing horn rises out of an already existing horn associated with a beast representing the 4th empire
Little Horn of Daniel 8 associated with a beast representing the 3rd empire
Daniel 7 Rises directly out of the head of the beast
Daniel 8 rises out of an already existing horn
See Part 2 for more comparing
game11221 1 week ago
How could the little horn be desecrating the Sanctuary in 457 BC when the prophecy does not even show it arising until after 301 BC
game11221 1 week ago
read entire chapter cant fail to see 1 event following another
Rise of the great horn (Alexander) comes 1st
He rules for a time & is broken
His empire is divided into 4 new empires
The 'little horn' comes on the scene AFTER this division
1 event is dependent upon another these events through history. consider the following chronology carefully
Alexander died in 323 BC
Alexander's kingdom was divided in 301 BC
The little horn could not have come on the scene until AFTER 301 BC
game11221 1 week ago
@game11221 "This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing of work in the sanctuary above" {GC 428.1} And I totally agree with it - I'm not watering it down, I'm explaining the why differently, that's all. Just like how James and Paul seemed to write differently about works, but it's just a different approach to the same conclusion.
iMattCi89 2 weeks ago
@iMattCi89
This takes away the certainty of salvation. I don't see it fitting into the good news of the gospel at all?
ExEGW 2 weeks ago
@ExEGW ? what does? the quote from GC 428.1?
iMattCi89 2 weeks ago
@iMattCi89
To determine who are prepared for heaven ( as quoted below ).
ExEGW 1 week ago
@ExEGW And it takes away the certainty of salvation? Nah, it doesn't. The only ones without certainty are the fakes. If you do have faith, the IJ has no prob whatsoever.
"He who repents of his sin and accepts the gift of the life of the Son of God, cannot be overcome. Laying hold by faith of the divine nature, he becomes a child of God. He prays, he believes. When tempted and tried, he claims the power that Christ died to give, and overcomes through His grace." {3SM 356.2}
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89
If you do have faith, the IJ has no prob whatsoever?
Ah, yes it is!
When Christ ascended into heaven, where did He go?
ExEGW 1 week ago
@ExEGW To heaven, to the right hand of God, and began to minister in the heavenly sanctuary by His blood all the way to the Most Holy Place, opening the way to the MHP. I think that last bit is what you're referring to. That isn't against the idea of the IJ, because Christ didn't go to the MHP straight away to do Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur's function was different from the daily. Furthermore, prophetically, it only began after the abomination of desolation (70AD), after Hebrews was written.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89
Interesting, it's amazing where one can go with an idea?
ExEGW 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Yom Kippur= Day of Atonement
Read Lev16 Romans5:11"11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. "
Christ fulfilled every single step of Lev16:
-Christ came as a High Priest to His temple (Heb. 9:11). -He entered by His own blood(Heb. 9:12). -He purified the heavenly copies with His blood(Heb. 9:23) -He appeared before the presence of God(Heb. 9:24) -His blood cleansed His people from sin(Heb. 9:14)
belojo2003 1 week ago
@belojo2003 Jesus didn't fulfill the Day of Atonement, He fulfiled the daily sin offering which was also called atonement. Don't let the lingo trick you.
The Day of Atonement did not finish at the cross, nor did it start (more like it stopped after a while) because of 2 things. 1, The Azazel bit hasn't been done yet. 2, "God's people" corporately stopped repenting of sins (and only started up again in the 18-19th century).
Above all, it wasn't time yet prophetically.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@belojo2003 Oops, correction... It did not start at all at the cross. It was more like... it wasn't time yet... Why did Jesus wait till 4BC to come? I think only God truly knows why He picked that particular time. As such, we don't know exactly why God waited until the 2300 ereb-boqer finished to start Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur couldn't have been at the cross, because Rev 14:6-7 didn't happen then. As for purification of the heavenly copies, Heb 9:18 shows that it's about inauguration.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Answer 5
The Atonement has been completed (see Heb. 10:11-14). At His ascension Christ fulfilled every one of the aspects of the Day of Atonement as described in Leviticus 16:
Christ came as a High Priest to His temple (Heb. 9:11).
He entered by His own blood (Heb. 9:12).
He purified the heavenly copies with His blood (Heb. 9:23)
He appeared before the presence of God (Heb. 9:24)
His blood cleansed His people from sin (Heb. 9:14)
Rom5:11,ATONEMENT already happen
belojo2003 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Answer4 Did Jesus open the way into the Holiest upon His ascension?
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us...(Heb. 10:19,20)"
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy(Heb. 4:16)"
Jesus opened the way for us to enter into the Most Place where is the throne of Grace or the Mercy seat (the Presence of God)
Not in 1844!
belojo2003 1 week ago
@belojo2003 "Answer4" 1844 wasn't for granting access into the Most Holy. Firstly, your translation is wrong, it's not "holiest", it's "holy places" plural. In other words, when He ascended into heaven, He gave us access to the whole heavenly temple.
1844 wasn't for access, it was for ministry; Jesus' work.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Answer3 Where is the "presence of God"?
"LORD said unto Moses,Speak unto Aaron thy brother,that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat,which is upon the ark; that he die not:for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.(Lev16:2)
The place of the Lord's presence in the Old Test. tabernacle was upon the mercy seat in the Holiest Place.Christ must have entered in the MHP to appear before the mercy seat of God or God's presence
belojo2003 1 week ago
@belojo2003 "Christ must have entered in the MHP to appear before the mercy seat of God or God's presence" True, but once again, the language used doesn't fit Yom Kippur. Paul's referring to the inauguration of the new covenant and showing there's no need for Him to offer Himself continuously for sins.
"can enter" does not equal to "ministry completed" because even the Israelites couldn't enter. The veil represented that the way to the heavenly temple wasn't there yet.
iMattCi89 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Were does it say, 1st apartment = ministry & 2nd = cleansing in Heb9?
What it does say, 1st apt = Jewish era because the cross had not come, 2nd apt = our Lord -cross,resurrection,ascension. the way 2 the MHP is shown not 1844 but cross
This is the context! This is the context! This is the context!
Please dont ask, well what is he doing? I go to prepare a place 4 you. I sit at the right hand of God until the world is made my foot stool.
no no we hve 1844
game11221 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Answer2- By comparing the Biblical evidence found in the Old Testament description of the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16) with the New Testament description of the Day of Atonement (Heb. 9) we will find out exactly when the Day of Atonement happened. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us(Heb. 9:24)". he Bible tells where God's presesnce abide in O.T
belojo2003 1 week ago
@iMattCi89 Answer1
When Christ failed to return as predicted in 1844,Adventists devised a teaching to try and explain that something had actually happened in 1844.According to this teaching, the heavenly Day of Atonement began in 1844 and Jesus moved from one room of the sanctuary to another room, shutting the door behind Him. Ellen said "This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844(Ellen White,Early Writings, p. 42.)"
belojo2003 1 week ago
@belojo2003 ...It clear from the Bible that the earthly sanctuary is the copy of the one above. Christ has become our high Priest and in so doing has become the fulfilment of
what the earthly sanctuary stood for..If he had entered the MOST HOLY PLACE at his ressurection,then when during his Ministry did he enter the HOLY PLACE and with what blood?...please give me biblical evidence..if you can't then you still have a lot to learn!