Unitarian Church Shooting - The Wider Context

[waabaadaba]

Should that question even be asked? It is oblivious, gutless narrow minded bigoted fanaticism will always prey on the defenceless, it will take great courage from the human race to irradiate this zealot behaviour, and their sponsors. Beck,Hannity,Limbaugh and all right wing hate mongers who reach out to the weak minded right wing religious zealots, rely on simple minded religious men,their gutless drone women, and mentally abused kids, CAN WE START KILLING THEM YET?

[barbourboixx]

I LIKE LIKE THIS VIDEO!!!

[BootPatrol]

You are hitting the nail right on the head, ModestAgnostic. I am on SSI and TennCare. I have to put up with idiots who think that Limbaugh can do no wrong, and they refuse to concede the possibility that they are wrong.

Thanks for posting, friend.

[ndyt]

TheModestAgnostic, you seem confused. Let me clear it up: the GOP are fear mongers and very good at it. That's all there is to it. They get voters to que up and vote for them because of the fear they spread.

[delbard1]

@ndyt i have come to the conclusion that the most dominate emotion of humans is fear.

[Henry10th]

Predictable, cliche'-ridden, liberal sloganeering. Things are not quite so simplistic.

[CarryANation]

"Predictable, cliche'-ridden, liberal sloganeering."

Explain?

"Things are not quite so simplistic. "

You are that simplistic.

[Henry10th]

Carry, The video suggests that the character in Knoxville who did the shooting was primarily motivated by the loss of his food stamps. I would call that simplistic. Furthermore, to suggest that lower middle-class voters should be motivated only by economic issues is also simplistic. "Man does not live by bread alone..." Thirdly, to suggest that all statist economic programs necessarily better the lot of the lower rungs of society is not an economic fact but rather a political slogan.

[relworp69]

Seems like a smart guy!

[CarryANation]

I agree about Republicans, but the Democrats are NOT different, they are complementary to the Republicans.

Working class people vote against their economic interests because the Democratic party HATES the culture of the white working class.

Republicans play up the hate and resentment and racism of whites just like the Dems do for everyone else.

However there is nothing like the pure hate conservative propaganda campaign like talk radio, FOX news, etc. Dems have nothing like it.

[twochordcool]

Spot on my friend - SPOT ON.

[merryberry1234]

powerful, well said

[merryberry1234]

America is currently so divided it is a major stretch to refer to her as the "United" States.

[twochordcool]

That's sadly VERY true - we have 2 types of people with COMPLETELY different ideas of how to achieve the best country possible - and we HATE each other. But it is a VERY valid hate for liberals - conservatives have a "fuck 'em" approach to people - if the "free market" can't help desperate people then, in their minds, they should be on their own. And these people would rather see corporations get rich in a for-profit health care system than have a system that covered everybody. It's obscene.

[spiritawe]

Agreed. Its the certainly not the people that are united, but the governments controlling the states and the states respective governments.

[steve19683]

That said, it's not too difficult to see many reasons why working class rural people have learned to fear God and vote Republican.

The question I wonder is: how DOES an educator compete with a broadcast system that is run by big companies and is completely dependent on advertising revenue for its content? Personally, I think the world would be much improved by a ban on all forms of non-requested multi-media advertising.

[steve19683]

I believe that as we grow older, our values harden, who we ARE hardens, and even were we to become deranged, we would not knowingly break with these values. We are not all the same. If we are brought up from primary school hearing the praises of suicide bombers, yes, we will be more likely to follow that route. I cannot imagine my present or any future self killing people merely to make a political statement. We are NOT all the same.

[snman37922]

I live in Knoxville where this right wing conservative republican fruitcake murdered two people. Trust me in the Southern United States there many more like him.

[twochordcool]

Yeah, that pisses me off - but what pisses me off is when I find this warped fuckers up here among the intelligent liberal masses in the northeast.

[ejonconrad]

This some of the most insightful commentary I've heard on this sad topic. It's frustrating that with all the millions paid to television talking heads, one has to go to YouTube to find quality. Keep up the good work.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Wow, thanks man!

[ejonconrad]

Believe me, I know the type. I have some relatives who are farmers. Like most farmers, they can barely make ends meet, and like most farmers, they're staunch Republicans. The brilliant Republican political machine has convinced them that Islamic terrorists and gay marriage present more of a threat to their tiny Nebraska town than more tangible and immediate threats like losing their land or not having proper healthcare for their kids. Sigh.

[y277480v]

great comment

[Scentless]

Is it just me, or does that gunman look like an aged version of Walter Kovacs?

[Ansonidak]

Well done Sir! As always you are succinct and logical.

[Ratabluie]

Exactly the kind of thoughts that have been going through my head on this.

Thanks for articulating them so well.

[InReasonWeTrust]

good obs

[cflambe]

I'm a UU minister. I appreciate your thoughts.

[TheModestAgnostic]

You are very welcome, and my heartfelt condolences to the you and the effected congregation.

[VampiressOnDaProwl]

Perfection!

[acme181169]

Look! Lets make this really simple, all that needs to happen is for Americans to realise that their way of life and their country is NOT perfect. With just that small mental shift, life could be better for the whole planet!

[Iamasockpuppet]

Indeed it could. Nice summation:-)

[dfarmer1584]

BTW: Don't go getting any ideas about calling for a ban on MY guns...I didn't and wouldn't shoot anyone ;)

(I am only kidding. You are THE MAN!)

[dfarmer1584]

Nice observations.

Critique:

I would argue that $50K per year is far to low as a working class metric. I earn considerably more than that, but I am certainly not wealthy enough to be a Republican ;-)

Comment:

The Republicans brandish the cross, waive the flag and shamelessly employ every mindless demagogic trick to seduce the simple folks into servitude and wage slavery. It works.

It is not a new maneuver. The technique is as old as civilization.

[Iamasockpuppet]

I wanted my point to be clear, and perhaps aimed the bar a little low. You are of course correct. If you are not independently wealthy, a society with a solid safety net is in your best interests. The republicans tirelessly try to dismantle that, the democrats are at least lukewarm to the idea. Why 98% of Americans do not vote for what is clearly in their interest ... its a puzzler ... your later points cover some of it, but I still think there is a gap.

[naomi94]

Americans do not vote according to the issues

the vote according to who they identify with

that is why dumb-shits vote republican

[Iamasockpuppet]

To some degree this happens in all democracies, but where a party diverges from its electoral base as dramatically as the republicans have? It seems anomalous.

[DeletedDelusion]

Excellent video.

I'm amazed that some people think if less "government" doesn't work well, the only solution must be even lesser "government".

Besides what exactly does the political right in the US mean when they talk about less government?

[Iamasockpuppet]

Given the amount of governance displayed by the Bush mis-administration, they don't have many notches left on the dial. Where next? Anarchy?

[TheMajorD]

TMA don't try to figure out america atleast not for 5-10 years sadly america is in a tail spin tring to recover the controls but other parties are flailing about rampitly making the situation more chaotic.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Lets hope they do recover those controls ...

[CrucieFiction]

You've hit on a subject that has just dumbfounded me for years now. It is indeed a testimony to the power of brainwashing through long term inculcation (just as with religion). Bill Maher frequently mentions this bizarre phenomenon in the US where today's middle class mostly seems to side with, and votes for, those who are diametrically opposed to their own best interests.

[Iamasockpuppet]

It is completely bizarre!!

[Iamasockpuppet]

This tMA by the way, I use this sock account to ensure my comments get counted too:-) Sneaky.

[DjtHeutii]

I suspected as much. ;)

[DjtHeutii]

I think it has a lot to do with 2 main factors:

1. The vilification and deep seated "cultural rejection" of any form of "Socialism" in the US. The marginalization of the cummunist and Anarchist movements early on in the US and their "Demonification" by government and media of all sorts over the years.

2.The more recent "destruction" of the Labor movement in the US.

There are other things that impact it, of course, but those come to mind most readily.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Thats a compelling list. Unions still exercise a lot of power in most European countries, and the more I see the alternative, the more I realise how much better it is that this is the case.

[DjtHeutii]

There has been a concerted effort in the US for the last few decades to marginalize and "defang" the labor movement in the US. It has not been entirely successful as of yet, but unless this economic downturn energizes workers to organize I can't see the Labor movement in the US surviving much longer.

[Iamasockpuppet]

It seems clear you guys need to do something to counter that. Maybe getting democrats into the presidency with majorities in both houses will help.

[DjtHeutii]

One would hope, but the disintegration didn't slow down during the Clinton years. It is my opinion that something really fundmental has to change in the US for people to reflect seriously on matters of this nature. What that change is or what it will entail, I don't know. I'd rather it not be a full on Economic Depression, as that might jut make things worse.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Yeah ... its akward alright.

[CarryANation]

DjtHeutii from the 1800s until the 1930s there was a very strong Christian/Protestant Socialist movement in the USA, behind the abolition movement, the worker's rights movement, prohibition, public schools, and a host of other similar issues.

The Christian Socialists in America were destroyed two ways, first by a fundamentalist movement funded by business interests, and then by a "secular left"/Marxism which hated Christianity and Christian culture and alienated half the working class.

[DjtHeutii]

Indeed. I was discussing this with a freind and she also commented on the fact that this guy attacked the very people who would have been most interested in giving aid and comfort to him. With the US economy as it is right now, and more people losing their homes and being put in positions to need the help and aid of others it is my hope that more people come to realize that they've been scammed by the party in power and do something about it other then just "snap" and do this sort of thing.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Indeed! I think this the likeliest outcome. The US is stable and rich enough to manage a bit of political revolution, the rest of us are rather counting on you. A US that respects human rights and accepts the need to provide for its most vulnerable citizens, sets the tone for the rest of the world.

[DjtHeutii]

The test for this is whether or not we here in the US elect Obama. While I don't 100% endorse everything Obama has said he'd like to do, I think that he's clearly the only choice that will improve matters. It will be good to have a rational and intelligent person, regardless of whether or not I endorse their every policy.

[Iamasockpuppet]

I have to agree with that whole heartedly. It is hard to find a politician with which man agrees on every point, Obama is no exception to that reality. However, he is clearly (to me at least) orders of magnitudes better than McCain.

[Iamasockpuppet]

with which *one agrees on every point.

[kurtilein3]

education is the key.

and actually americans could be far less intelligent than the rest of the planet, because you need to learn how to think in order to be able to think. you need to learn about logical fallacies and how to spot them, for example. evolution works slow indeed, this means that theoretically americans could be as intelligent as humans were 5000 years ago, our bodies and brain size didnt change much during that time, its all education.

[Iamasockpuppet]

But is education really that much worse in the US?

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

"But is education really that much worse in the US?"

Yes. YES! Absolutely yes. The vast majority of citizens here cannot afford a decent education (even if genetics would allow). Further, k-12 is more indoctrination than education. Those of us that are capable of figuring out all of the grants and loans typically graduate more than $25,000 in debt and are therefor forced into a career as a debt slave.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Damn. You'd be pretty envious of the Swedish situation. Basically the state funds everything including a stipend to live on from primary to 3rd level. Wild.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

"...the Swedish situation"

I know life here sucks donkey balls. No need to rub it in.

[Iamasockpuppet]

wait I didn't mean surely not DONKEY BALLS!!?

[kurtilein3]

it was just an example. there are many countries where education is worse than in america.

i am not sure, someone should check it, i would roughly estimate america to be somewhere around the 40 or 50 best countries when it comes to education. doesnt look as good compared to 40 better countries, some of them much better, but thats just the developed world and there still is the rest of the planet.

[studio7manga]

Nice video ModestA, having had a lot of discussions with right wingers iRL and on the tubes, I have to say with a high degree of certainty that these people do not live in reality, and don't want to. I can't be anymore enlightening than that sadly.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Keep having those conversations though, I bet some of it is sinking in:-)

[federali84]

Again thank you for stating fuck the people that say they are all as bad as each other.

If there's a choice between a evil and so-called lesser evil choose the lessor evil ffs.

This American Dream and idolization of the rich meme is starting to to take control of my country. Thank jebus the Labor Party finally took back the power again.

[Iamasockpuppet]

I'm hopeful things have begun to pendulum back finally. Those of us on the "outside" that love America, and recognise how much more than 500 Billion dollars of weapons (annually!), she has to offer the world, will be pushing as hard as we can to help that momentum.

We should all take heart that progressives CO-OPERATE instinctively, while conservatives and nationalists DISTRUST instinctively. This means our vision of a unified, democratic and peaceful world has good odds for success:-)

[federali84]

Also the fact that there has never been a significant "Labor Party of USA", it has always been a contest between the Democrat centre-right party to Republican right-far right where as most other democratic contests in advanced countries are between centre-left v centre-right parties.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Yep. The democracts look on the edge of free market extremists to most europeans, but of course republicans are just flat out bonkers. I have to laugh when US news items refer to Sarkozy as a "conservative". If he was an American politician, they'd consider him Lenin's reincarnation:-)

[federali84]

even Thatcher said she would never touch the NHS

but the so-called left party of USA doesn't even advocate outright universal health care.

I guess they have to take small steps first, fear of "socialised" medicine is weird

[Iamasockpuppet]

It is an utter mystery! It seems the love affair with privitisation is over at last, that should make things easier. Decisions should be taken for practical reasons, not ideological ones.

[federali84]

A little known fact about the occupation of Iraq is that the only political law the US kept from Saddams rule was the ban on trade unions.

TMA I highly recommend you watch the Adam Curtis documentaries, "Century of the Self", "The Power of Nightmares" and "The Trap"

[Iamasockpuppet]

I've seen the power of nightmares. Good stuff. I'll check out the others:-)

[federali84]

yep the other two are on Youtube or can be linked from my favourites,

watch Century of the Self first.

It can answer some of these questions you've put forward.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Thanks:-)

[federali84]

As Green Day sings, "the subliminal mindfuck america"

To me it is the failure of the american trade union movement that has caused the working class to submit to taking it right up the kisser. If you look at the countries that are ranked highest on the UN Human Development Index you will find that virtually all of them have had a significant and influential union movement influence.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Yep. Scandinavia. Again.

[federali84]

/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Australia's No 3

However there has been a very big wane on union influence in the last 15 years,

most news media does not like unions, they like making news out of the bad ones, not the pragmatic one's that don't make sensational news stories.

Ireland's pipped Sweden for no 5!

[Iamasockpuppet]

Yeah, unions get a bad rep in the developed world, but the developing world is were the real urgency is.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

The force that allows assholes like Limbaugh to harness the average american can be summed up in 1 word: Ignorance.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Sigh ... that appears to be a big part of the problem.

[Largo64]

Your video is an excellent analysis. I wish more Americans could stand off and take a look through more objective eyes. That includes myself. I do tend to get emotionally worked up over the events of the day, and emotions do get in the way of clear thinking.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Well thank you for saying so. I understand it must be a source of some annoyance to have "outsiders" constantly criticising your nation, but the truth is, we are all "insiders" now. The adage "When wall street catches a cold ..... " has never been truer, and probably needs some amplification. The US economic, political and cultural life affects the world like no kingdom , nation or empire before it. Rome, eat your heart out.

[acme181169]

Coulter 'writes a book' called Godless!

European response: So what! (if they have even heard of her or it)

American ReSponse: Gee, Thank the lord, Anne has saved us from those ELITIST GODLESS SODOMITES.

An thats not even to get into the irony of calling libertarians Elitist

[Iamasockpuppet]

While I subscribe to the idea of America as the "good guy", there does appear to have been some significant amount of indoctrination of the general populace. This perhaps explains part of this bizarre self destructive trend of electing republicans?

[sft62]

An anecdote: Many years ago I went to a bar in South Boston. The majority of the clientele were blue collar construction workers and laborers. Behind the bar in plain sight was a plaque which read, "This is America. If you're not rich then you must be stupid."

I wondered what they, for those who read it, might think of that statement and how it might affect them.

When they awaken to realize that their lives had become irrelevant and insignificant in comparison to the "American Dream".

[angryislander56]

There was a piece in Harpers about this a couple

of years ago called What is Wrong with Kansas?

It was an excerpt from a book of the same title.

The strongest support for the republicans is

among those most heavily sodomized by them.Weird!

[TheModestAgnostic]

I am still shaking my head in disbelief. I was ranting about this in the car yesterday for 20 minutes to my poor trapped wife. Is it literally that a given party will convince a proportion of stupid people to vote for them? Is that what it is? I find it hard to categorise 20% of Americans as iredeemably idiotic, but it's looking like we are left with little choice. I suppose if turnout was higher than 50% we'd have a real puzzle on our hands:-)

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

"...if turnout was higher than 50%..."

That's the problem right there and can be accounted for in two ways. The US imprisons more than any other nation, more than most of Europe combined. Inside of that ~50% you have those disenfranchised by the "law" and cannot vote. They are alongside of those who are so hopelessly fed up with the system that they fail to vote. That leaves a very predictable second %50. For that we have the miracle of capitalist marketing. Every election is a fire sale.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Yeah, I've seen a statistic recently that showed Sweden spent the same per capita annually on EDUCATION, that the US spends on its prison system. Sweden imprisons roughly 15% per capita of the US levels, and does not disenfranchise criminals. The high prison levels and throughput, must take a chunk of the poorest, most disadvanteged members of society out of the political discussion ... sneaky. Anyone know what total % of the electorate that is at any given time?

[tacoguy1988]

Hopefully Obama will be better than Mcsane. Right now we have we only have two choices. The devil we know and the devil we don't know.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Well I've checked out Obama pretty closely, he is light years ahead of John "100 years" McCain. In my view anyway:-)

[tacoguy1988]

I hope you are right.

[Iamasockpuppet]

So do I dude, so do I.

[DjtHeutii]

Great vid. For a long time now I've been just appalled at the seeming ease with which Republicans have been able to get people to vote against their own interests. I've also been amazed that the "Republican Hate Machine" has not driven more poor deluded persons into committing acts of violence over the years of demonizing their opponents.

[TheModestAgnostic]

It plays as absurd parody over here, very few people could talk these lunatics seriously. Yet, they have a clear effect. Adkisson had a library with several right wing names in it, some of the worst. That has to have had an effect.

[TheModestAgnostic]

*take not talk

[DjtHeutii]

Oh, I agree. I'm not the sort of person who leaps up any says that some form of media "made" a person commit their acts of violence (as in the cas eof Colombine and accusations that video games made them do it), but clearly the nature of works such s Coulter's where she calls liberals "Traitors" and suggests that they be rounded up, etc. is a different kettle of fish. Especially under the circumstances of an individual with an unstable mental state.

[Iamasockpuppet]

Some of these books make "Mein Kampf" seem positively staid, and slow moving by comparison, couple that with a society that simply discards "unproductive" citizens ... it's an explosive combination.

[cypherphage]

It boils down to a lot of people like to simplify reality. To most people, conservative or liberal is not a series of views, but rather either the cause of all problems or the solution to all ails. And it is this ignorance that the corrupt feed off of and Washington warned against...

[cypherphage]

On a side note, while the conservatives cause many problems the liberals do as well, for instance censorship laws from Bill Clinton and anti-consumer legislation, the patriot act, and the Iraq from Feinstein. It's the two party politics that keep these people in power.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I don't buy the "they are as bad as each other" mantra. That just depresses people, and discourages them from voting. You have a shit 18th century system, you have my sympathy on that score, but I have nothing but contempt for an american that doesn't vote. Especially NOW, when effectively you are voting in proxy for all of us.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I am emphatically not convinced of this. Politicians are merely people. But they have constituencies, the Repub. constituency comprises a narrow base of free market extremists, shored up by single issue "values" voters. Repubs do not represent these peoples interests, how could they? Unless you're a millionaire, a society with a robust safety net is in your best interests. Thats 98% of any given society. The only developed country in the world where this obvious fact is overlooked, is the US.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Atheists should be on this bandwagon day and night. The day loosing your job at 50, or becoming ill without health insurance in the US is no longer a borderline death sentence, that is the day when religion will begin to wane like it has in the rest of the developed world.

[cypherphage]

I'll vote for Obama of course seeing as he is better than most candidates, hasn't put forward anything I can't stomach, and is vastly better than McCain. That said, if it weren't for the horrible senators and congressmen that have been elected to their current seats, there wouldn't be a problem as they would have checked Bush's power, and as such I wish more people would be independents. To be honest, the whole system is a bit of scam but I cannot do anything about it, at least of present.

[TheModestAgnostic]

You have my heartfelt sympathy. First past he post is an AWFUL electoral system, and a lot of your problems stem from it. That said, you have some great elected officials, and as long as you have a democracy, no matter how dysfunctional, there is scope to continue to broaden political participation. Listen, 300 years ago, we all lived under abslute monarchies. It's getting better, but it's a sawtooth, not a smooth curve. The Bush years have been a terrible dip, lets hope BO is better.

[Largo64]

Oh, NO! Your reference is the first time I saw Barack Obama abbreviated. BO? Body Odor? I hope Rush Limbaugh isn't reading this! ;<)

[TheModestAgnostic]

LOL ... yeah, better you heard it here first:-)

[joeyoap]

It's not a great deal different in Britain.We have the choice of choosing between one bunch of self servers bearing false promises and an equally corrupt bunch.I tend to vote for anyone with even a vague chance of unsettling the smug bastards(as long as they don't have obnoxious policies).I live in hope that enough people do something similar and make voting more worthwhile but I'm not holding my breath.

[Iamasockpuppet]

The UK has FPtP, much like the US. This is probably where the US got the idea:-) Countries that have a more representative system, tend to result in more coalition governments (not so good), but a root and branch destruction of basic social services becomes near impossible (very good indeed). There just aren't enough people that crazy. The main problem with FPtP is it torques the relative strengths of parties out of all relationship to their constituency, occasionally amplifying the crazy.