Gavin Harrison at PASIC 2008: Overriding odd meters to smooth out the groove

[RIdrummer96]

1:40 to 1:52 was a low blow to Dream Theater lol

[krombee]

i was lost after a minute and a half...

[iPLaYdAk3Ys]

Polyrhythms.......mmmmmmmm....­...

[ThePretender94]

no dislike - how it should be

[fingerboy18]

Ladies and Gentlemen; the master of actually making odd-meters sound smooth.

[controlh]

Gavin Harrison's an amazing musician so don't take this as criticism, but "overriding" seems like a clever way to obscure the time signature - sort of a catch-22. Maybe that's why I have trouble finding the time signatures in some of the PT songs.

Vinnie Colaiuta got a lot kudos using the same concept on Seven Days. Not sure why a song with that title would be played in 5 though - another form of overriding I suppose.

[InatorCorp]

As a guitarist, I love this guy. It's not all about technicality for him. He's a musician, not a mathematician,

[Cazaq]

Just had a Meshuggah moment.

[ahvaimusicom]

he is so good its stupid

[xSBxBBBdx]

I feel kinda ashamed because I'm a drummer but I don't get his point from 1:00 min to 1:20 min......^^ it sounds exactly the same to me, with the hi-hat on or off the beat..... could somebody explain to me?

[ExEurasian]

@xSBxBBBdx Say you're playing the 'sound of muzak' beat and your playing 8th notes all at the same height and force. So you're playing the whole beat, going into every bar as normal, BUT like Gavin says that (though it may sound good) sounds quite forced or stiff. So what he does is accent every quarter beat, so you're still playing 8th notes but you're accenting the 1, 2, 3 etc LIKE how you would accent the bass drum (on beat 1/3) and snare drum (on beat 2/4) on a standard 4/4 beat

[xSBxBBBdx]

@ExEurasian Ahhhh okay I missunderstood one point, I thought he changed something in between the two bars and therefore I was kinda confused^^ Thanks for your help ;)

[BeanKitchen]

Interesting about what he says about "singing the beat". Phil Collins said the same thing about odd time signatures. Phil chocked it up to his ability to sing and not think about the math.

[Andrewvv1]

3/16 with 7/8 makes my head hurt.

[Obelix5150]

Yeah, this overriding thing is crucial imo when you're hittin up odd time signatures. Portnoy does something like that in the Count of Tuscany, making 7/4 sound a bit more logical by making the quarter note be on the "on" beat the first measure and "off" the second. Has a groove AND sounds really cool.

[allmetaliswelcome]

3:01 is that futile?

[Sonor1996]

@allmetaliswelcome no its what happens now..

[Kingding6]

3/16 override....I can just see myself seizing up in a fit of uncontrollable muscle spasm.

[tambourDOM]

3:09..

I'm 95% sure that's from "What Happens Now"

woohoo

[MrGalileomagnifico]

check out Vinnie Colaiuta's performance on Seven Days by Sting. Another great example of overriding.

by the way Gavin, GREEEEATTTT!!!!

[steininja]

1:20  random dude: "Nice!"

just what i was about to say...

[Parkeronas]

That 3/16ths over-ride really reminds me of What Happens Now? I think that it might be from there.

[blowmyroot]

gavins awesome and totally beyond me i love porcupine tree but im a drummer who likes the idiom k.i.s.s (keep it simple stupid), i love rush and dt and it bites but i always love the regular pulse without the confusion, so i ask why do it? well because guys like gavin and peart and portnoy can i suppose but ringo? he got the worlds attention.

[Kummen]

Ahhhh my head is full of fuck..... and I've never enjoyed it more

[astrophonix]

This guy is pure poetry in motion. I could watch him for hours. Beautiful co-ordination!

[inimicalODDITY]

Wow, at the end when he's talking about singing or the humming the song or bass line, I freaked out because ever since I began drumming I have had great timing. Other drummers I know ask me if I count and I say "no, I hum" and they are confused. To me, it's much easier to find the timing or create odd times by just playing along to a tune I make up in my head or remember from a song.

[ChaosInExpansion]

genio!

[beatcrazy14]

I can't figure out the override at 3:00

[Jaythedrummerman]

@beatcrazy14 He is just moving from playing 1/4 notes to playing playing 1/8 notes . Overriding is basically accenting the 1/4 note and remaining on the 1/4 note while the pattern changes around it. For example if you play to a click track and take your hat hand out of the pattern and just play the snare and bass drum. You will hear the 1/4 note click track move from on the beat to off the beat or you will hear your snare move from on the click to behind it.

[beatcrazy14]

@Jaythedrummerman ah i see thanks

[ryder187mac]

@beatcrazy14 He explains it. Basically, on the ride bell he's keeping a contant pattern of 3/16 going. So instead of hitting 8th notes or quarter notes, he's hitting 3/16, and playing 7/8 with feet / hands. You can count the hands as (1)23(1)23 in 16th notes and the feet as 7 obviously in 8th notes ;) but you've to count separately as they're separate rhythms and would take 3 bars to match up at 1 again.

[860326k]

cool pv ^thank you ^

[disas73r]

from what song is the last example?

[eliasmisael]

@disas73r The first is The Sound Of Muzak from In Absentia album

The last is What Happens Now? from Nil Recurring EP

[sohaib785]

an imtelligent and skilled musician =D

[OrganicShadows17]

this guy is just so unbelievably genius. he's on a whole different level.

I just sit on my computer watching his videos with a HUGE smile on my face. just blows my mind away.

[alexilaihoisgod666]

i totally agree!!! I never really listened to porcupine tree before, but I think i'm gonna after watching this guy!!

[c0d3x001]

@OrganicShadows17 i can totally relate to that... when you just sit there watching something so brilliant that you're just happy that something like the thing you're watching exists

[Jmul82692]

Haha the last one is what happens now. So incredible.

[PaulAJCMoreau]

clever, i should keep this info in mind

[Ollievarium]

I think 'overridding' might be syncopation. Not sure exactly what he's reffering to when he says overriding though.

[jez12]

If I understand correctly, the concept of overriding should be used in odd time signatures.

Overriding can give a complex polyrhythmic beat a steady pulse to follow. Basically a simpler beat overrides a complex beat, so that the simpler beat is accented on top and it stands out. Just look at the examples in this video.

I think technically overriding is just a synonym for a polyrhythm, but when specified, overriding is a polyrhythmic concept for smoothing out the beats.

[Ollievarium]

Yeah, I think in music theory, this concept is called syncopation. Check wiki explaination of syncopation and tell me if you think it's what Gavin is on about!

[jez12]

No, with overriding Gavin does not mean syncopation. Syncopation is basically just rhythm displacement. For example you can displace a beat to a different position in standard 4/4 beats to give it a different feel. Gavin explains rhythm displacing in his educational DVDs.

Overriding is used on polyrhythms or odd time signatures to give the listener a steady pulse to relate to while listening, instead of a choppy and jerky polyrhythm which the listener might have a hard time following.

[jez12]

If you look at the first example in this video, he plays a 7/8 beat with straight 8th notes on the hihat, and it sounds very stiff as he says. But when he accents the quarter notes, it starts to sound really smooth and almost dancable.

The accented quarter notes kind of overrides the beat beneath it. In the first bar the accents are on the beat and in the second bar they are off the beat. That's probably where the term "overriding" comes from.

[Ollievarium]

Ah ok, I understand the rhythms and pulses but not so much the termanology! I thought sycopation was just taking two rhythmns with a different number of meausures per bar and syncronizing those to create a polyrhythm.

[KackeEgal]

@jez12 Indeed. If you look at Tomas Haake (Meshuggah), he uses straight 4/4 on the hihat most of the time and does the evel magic with the other limbs. Some people don't even recognize total.egal@web.de latter :) But whatever, I rate GH higher because of his feel that Haake either does not show or is unable to apply.

[6ixth1rt3en]

@KackeEgal Check out Soul Burn. Haake definitely has feel.

[PositivelyBored]

@jez12

Listen to any of Rushes odd-time stuff and you get exactly what he is talking about NOT doing. Rush was famous for the stiff odd-time or the "Hey look at me I'm playing in 7/4!"

[pocketfiend36]

@Ollievarium If you want a better example of overriding, listen to meshuggah ^.^

[TeddyTrippett]

@jez12

He's basically saying he's putting cycles of four against it, playing only the first note of each, which "smooths it out" by giving you that even feel as a reference over the odd seven. Instead of feeling the faster 16th "(1)-2-3-(4)-5-(6)-7 etc" count (The 1 and 4 of the seven cycle corresponding to the bass drum, and the 6 being for the snare), or the 2 bar 7/8 count, you feel the groups of four as the main rhythm with syncopation against it. The two bars of 7/8 become a bar of 7/4

[AirmetalDrummer]

@Ollievarium dude you are just over-thinking it. Don't even think about syncopation.

Overriding is giving something in odd time a consistent beat as opposed to always making it sound choppy.

It smooths. If you can't get this then I don't know what to tell ya man.

Gavin explains it perfectly in the video and even gives examples.

[Ollievarium]

I'm sorry I'm causing you so much mental anguish! I do get what you are saying but it doesn't seem to mean anything specific. The example Gavin gives is accenting the quater notes but surely overriding will not always be accenting the quater notes i.e doing so will not smooth out every odd time beat in the world. Actually, it's all just occured to me! To stop the pulses in 7 going 1+2+3+4(1)+2+3+4 (the 1 in brackets represents the choppy jump) and instead letting the pulse resolve yeah?

[AirmetalDrummer]

Yea i think you have it.

The hi-hat starts out as quarter notes on the downbeat, but actually moves to the upbeat every other measure.

The illusion is that it always feels like it is on the downbeat and everything else is reversed, which is what makes it sound so cool.

[Ollievarium]

That makes perfect sense! I always thought of the off beat hi hat in the second bar as an off beat pulse rather than everything having been reversed. Think I'll experiment with it actually! 'Tis a tasty groove.

[AirmetalDrummer]

good luck man, this stuff is haaard. I'll try it out too. Lets rock!

[Ollievarium]

Yeah, I'm useless with polyrhthms unless I break it down into different bars and learn every bars beat placement individually. To be able to just loop two or three different rhythmns against each other straight off the top of your head is talent I really admire.

[Str8Faced]

@Ollievarium it's just playing quarter notes over whatever odd time your playing to keep a groove the listener could follow. Then he talks about playing a 3/16 ostinato override on the ride cymbal while playing in 7.

[zepman1989]

@Ollievarium , from my understanding, overriding is synonymous with a polyrhythm.

[riddleman65]

@Ollievarium

Syncopation is a blanket term to describe any sort of rhythm that has accents on beats that aren't normally accented (ie: the upbeats) "Overriding" is a polyrythmic technique used in odd time patterns to smoothen it out or to give your ear an easier pulse to follow. It's just not syncopation.

[Ollievarium]

@riddleman65 This is in no way meant to offend anyone but I've been getting explination after explination of what overriding means as a response to a comment I left a year ago. Did it ever occur to any of you that I might actually understand the concept by now?! However riddleman, this one was particularly easy to understand. Well done. Now everyone leave me alone!

[billpeart]

Im having a difficult time finding a reason why certain people are comparing bands, saying one is "better" or has a "better feel"...lets debate orange soda and grape soda...oh yeah, orange is better, you cant deny that!

[TT1086]

"I don't want to do this stuff just to say I'm clever. I want people to enjoy it."

+1. Why he's the best.

[billpeart]

i choose to play what I want rather than what a so called FM radio conditioned listener would like me to play

[smoukondeuoter]

Vinnie colaiuta did this "overriding" a lot of time ago....an example above all is "Seven days"...but also "love's stronger than justice" ecc... ec...

.

[bentsik123]

for me its like the most important thing in a drummer after all the basics

[bentsik123]

In my opinion Meshuggah use this method the best way

[konarider]

Apart from Gavin, Thomas Haake is one of my all time fave drummers.

[RoR0RoRoR0RoR0R0]

are you serious? what song do they do something similar to this in? not meaning to be rude man, but it would suprise me if a band like meshuggah did that.

[Theseventhknight]

meshuggah does that all the time. Thomas Haake is incredibly skilled. Plenty of their songs are all about odd meters like 23/16, and it doesn't sound weird or unnatural like some Dream Theater songs. Haake, Harrison, and Carey are all very good at making odd meters smooth.

[wurstnacken]

I absolutely agree with you! meshuggah does that in pretty much every song! not for nothing gavin likes them a lot because of that.

[pantera880]

his a fukin machine

[jimmayjimmayjj]

People need to learn to say what there thinking about the video and then fuck off, Not Criticize other peoples shit.

[carlnathan]

wow.. cool.. one of a kind drummer

[Johnnyhooker90]

"the majority of Tool's stuff is pretty straight foward. They only have a handful out of their whole catalogue where things get weird. " ??!?? Are you stupid? You clearly don't know anything about music do you?

[LanceDirk]

It's actually true. Danny will do interesting stuff in the fills and elsewhere, but I'd say about half the tool songs don't have many unusual rhythms or patterns. That's not a bad thing, it's not like if you don't use unusual rhythms that you're not original or something. Tool uses those rhythms when they make sense and play straightforward where it makes sense. This thing Gavin plays reminds me of that part in Eulogy.

[drumrnva]

Guy's a wizard.

[icedrummer4]

He's totally true

i can really relate to what he says about relating to the beat, cus metal these days is always trying to be progressive

and wen it comes to the band playing live, people cant really like he said "hold on" to the rhythm wen they play these extreme meters.

And if i were playin live id like to see people enjoyin the song and like "dancin" to the beat =P

so ye, he's actually inspired me =]

[skater15153]

yah he explained that concept very well. To me the best bands can do odd meters without people even knowing. My last show people said they loved one section and i was like, that was in 5/4 and they didn't even notice...made my whole night!

[AsG1989]

i can play the ending to what happens now

[treyzzer]

gavin harrison is one of the first westerners or western kind of music players that actually said not to count polyrythms but sing them... another musician who said that is jeff berlin .. i salute those guys cause me being from greece and haveing eastern influences in my vocabulary i do the same thing... sing the groove not count it... if u count it sometimes tends to be stiff...

[LedZeppelinFan83]

You know Gavin's a great drummer and what not, but I would have to disagree with what he says about how people can't follow odd time signatures. Well, if you look at a band like tool, or symphony x, anyone who likes them can understand the musical talent that is tool, or symphony x, or what have you. I, and many other people still love listening to bands like that, and can still " rock out" or be "in" the music.

[jez12]

What he means by that is people can't or have a hard time following an odd time signature, if there is nothing to relate to, like a steady pulse of a hihat accent.

While I'm not a big fan of those bands you mentioned, I'm sure that their odd times in songs are not made just for the sake of it or to sound clever, they sound musical and interesting. Odd times must sound musical, or otherwise it might turn many people away.

[LedZeppelinFan83]

Ya that's kind of what I meant to. Your right.

[LanceDirk]

That's part of the distinction to me between the often compared Tool and Dream Theater. Danny Carey (drummer for Tool) is amazingly talented at making beats like a compound 5/7 or 7/8/9 sound sensical, while Dream Theater seems to play as complex times as possible with no regard to any musicality. It's impossible to follow Dream Theater songs without counting.

[amjan]

That's bullshit.

And Portnoy does plenty of that "overriding" thingy, which in fact is just playing a larger meter over a smaller one. Watch this:

watch?v=no4luPP6t9c

Sticking to quarters notes on the cymbal in a 7/8 time, means you simply play a 7/4 over each two 7/8 bars.

[LanceDirk]

Overriding is no guarantee that your beat will flow and make sense.  But rather than tell me the DT odd time songs don't sound like abrupt chunks of different bars pasted together with no flow or discernible rhythm, why don't you show me? Tell me a DT song, album, video, or anything that is in an odd time that proves me wrong and I will listen to it. In fact I'll be glad to, because I always like to listen to things that sound good.

[LanceDirk]

I should add that I want to see an actual song, because the video you posted is my prime example that Portnoy plays odd times with no musicality.

[spazneckjim]

yes exactly, so the pattern is in 7/8 and is a two bar pattern. There are people on another video saying the whole pattern is in 7/4 and they are not quite getting the concept. It's Gavin Harrison modern drummer, and is playing the sound of musak. If you can go and watch and help me out with a few comments that would be great. :-)

[billpeart]

i see where you are coming from, however what you view as music isnt what others view as music. i have no problem following dream songs after listening to them countless times.dreams music in general is much more complex than tools music, they are in different genres. the more progressive the music the more peoples heads it goes over as well.listen to brufords earthworks, while it is hard to count, its very hard to say its not musical. music should be absorbed by feel, not by counting.

[LanceDirk]

Well i've listened to plenty of Bruford playing with King Crimson, and some of that stuff is easily written off as random notes by anyone who doesn't appreciate that kind of music, but while I love KC's more unusual songs like Lark's Tongue in Aspic, I don't see DT songs as having the same depth as those songs.

[billpeart]

fair enough

[batakofuckingrulez]

@LanceDirk King Crimson music is more complex than Dream Theater songs, bruford is fucking amazing!!!!

[PoeticJustice05]

"[M]usic should be absorbed by feel, not by counting." Exactly. You cannot deny that Tool's music has much more feel to it than Dream Theater's. You cannot deny that.

[YouthDrummer]

That's your view on music and i'm with you on the feel and enjoyment of it but some people enjoy music cause of the technical aspects and the counting and odd times.

[billpeart]

i guess if thats what "floats their boat", than theres nothing wrong with it. i dont necessarily agree with it, but music is an art form. everyone has different motives, none are wrong or incorrect.

[MrPelicanPants]

He didn't say all people. Also, there are plenty of Tool fans who don't have a clue what the band is doing musically and rhythmically. Also, the majority of Tool's stuff is pretty straight foward. They only have a handful out of their whole catalogue where things get weird. He also means people in general; big difference between the average music lover and a musician who is also a fan of the band.

[eclipseml]

those bands use and apply this same theory, ESPECIALLY tool.

[McDrummerSLR]

Wow, I still can't figure out how he's doing that beat in What Happens Now... im gonna try to tackle it though!

[arscheierfotzen]

FYI: The songs are: Sound of Muzak and What happens now?

[MrPelicanPants]

Oh give me a break! Gavin never claimed to be the first one to do it, nor as he ever said he was the best at it. And I can guarantee you that Vinnie wasn't the first to do it either. It's a jazz concept that's been around for about 60 years now. Gavin just has his own name for it and the way he applies it.

[jar1001]

Thanks Gavin, I could never figure what you were playing on the ride cymbal in that part of "What happens now"- it sounds so damn cool.

[Rhythmatist123]

SERIOUSLY, I kind of figured out what it was but he makes it look so easy!!!!

[antibulletdodger101]

god, you are so good..

[Magnum1978]

ok gavin, but what happens if you only have one brain?!

Seriously though, awesome stuff. I have both DVD's. LOTS of practice needed!

[6pusher]

hey im guna buy them one or both of them dvds,s which one would you recomend?

[NYGSD]

wow...i really want to have him teach me some of this stuff. lol

[tsukasasanondrums]

god...the thing with the counting, i do it like the same way. i articulate the beatfeel and do not count numbers...

[bobcr]

he is counting. 1,2,3,4,1,2,3

[TheCobaltRod]

It can be counted be he isn't, he's feeling. He even says that at the end of the video.

I like to do a bit of both. Count out the really complex polymetrics at a slow tempo, then just feel it.

[susrev88]

i think bobcr means that GH counts it in the video at 1:09, but on stage GH feels the rhythm

[TheCobaltRod]

I see what you're saying, where he literally counts the 'count off' under his breath.

However, if you look closely it looks like his mouth is forming the word "One, two, three, four, five, six, set (Short for seven, since it's two syllables)". So he is counting it, but he isn't counting the actual subdivision that he's going to be playing, just a straight 7.

[susrev88]

OK, now i see. I looked closely, but next time I'll look more closely :) Thanks.

[tsukasasanondrums]

i dont want to play this things just to sound clever...really really humble and smart guy

[BigBearVids]

wonder why no headset mic . ? then again he could play with just one hand all the time and still be awesome...

[bobscore35]

whoa sick polyrhythms at 3:00

:0

[marcrhiller]

The quarter note accent in 7 is something Vinnie Colaiuta did a lot for Sting. Check out "Seven Days" and "St. Augustine in Hell". They sound really good with this technique

[Darmikalus]

This man is friggin genius

[sickpack82]

Great! looking forward to new parts from GH but vicfirth still keep them

[playswithpassion]

This guy always opens up new ideas for me...that dotted 8th override he showed is a lot like something I would just play without really thinking about what it was...very helpful in expanding the way I think about the music.

[mikeportnoyfan]

the second example he uses is that from mother and child divided?

[SwantonBomb630]

No Its From What Happens Now From Nil Recurring

[NucleoVega]

no it's The Sound of Muzak

[euphoricanomaly]

Very useful information for those who want to play in odd time. I learned something from this