GRAF NEVER HAD A LOSING h2 against seles even though seles won more grand slams but a lot of that wasnt at grafs expense and the period around 91-early 92 graf was in a slump.I really wished they played more times than they did.Over their whole career they only played 15 times thats over a 10 yr period.Grafs adaptability over all surfaces is what makes me give her goat status nobody has done what she has.If players get acareer goldenslam these days praise is heaped upon them graf did it in year
@TrueGreatSteffiGraf enter graf vs seles wimbledon 1992 on you tube search and look for saschamen76 he had the whole match posted in including the awarding ceremony but it was in German though.
Not that I am saying Serena needs easier competion. Just that as it is there really isnt anyone to challenge her until some of the other top ones get their acts together again or the next generation emerges. The current contenders are all not in slam winning form (Henin, Kim, Venus, Maria), not good enough to do more than fluke the odd slam win maybe (Kuznetsova, Dementieva, Jankovic, Stosur) and the current up and comers arent that good either (Wozniacki, Azarenka, Radwanska).
@juju1305 Of course she played better. The Australian Open final wasnt on grass. Seles was shit on grass. Her final at Wimbledon was pretty much a fluke. Seles was never capable of that kind of tennis like the 93 Australian Open final on grass. Graf isnt even that good on rebound ace either, it is her worst surface by far and her slice backhand sits up like a fluffball on it, although she still won 4 titles vs joke competition on it.
@kerstenfanatic "shit" might be exagerated, she beat Navratilova in the semis after all. With no Graf around, she might have 2 or 3 wimbledons to her name.
Of course, rebound ace made the Graf backhand look harmless, but back in 1993, Graf had 3 AO titles in 5 participations (i'm excluding her early 80s runs at the AO because it was another surface). Her ratio was much lower on the Paris clay, so I wouldn't say it was her worst surface, but definetely the one where she could not beat SeleS.
@juju1305 Seles and Sanchez combined kept Graf from winning 8 French Opens. Even without Seles ever around Graf would have won only 5 Australians. So I think it is by far her worst surface, she isnt better on rebound ace than clay if that is what you mean. Remember Graf got destroyed by Coetzer there once too, got lucky to beat a choking Sukova in 1990, and overall yeah she won 4 but she had joke draws and opponents most times doing it.
@kerstenfanatic Actually it could have been even more since both Sanchez and Seles beat her twice at the French. And I agree about the draws too but 3 titles with no loss on the same surface in a row is still very impressive.
@juju1305 it is impressive but Graf is still very beatable on rebound ace. Hingis in her prime would also have been better than Graf on the surface. Navratilova in her prime would have been even worse than Graf, she is lucky the Australian Open wasnt on rebound ace as that would have been her worst surface too, even more than clay. Evert would have dominated even a peak Navratilova on that very bouncy and slow Court I predict and would have changed how people viewed their rivalry.
At the 88 Australian Evert was even older than Martina and just whipped her. You cant count Martina out but I am pretty sure rebound ace would have been the worst surface for Martina to play Chris or a top baseliner with her serve and volley game, moreso than even clay. And Navratilova also slices the majority of her backhands, most especialy her approach shots coming into the net, another negative for her on rebound ace.
@juju1305 what I mean is Seles on rubbish on grass compared to what she is on other surfaces. For the standards of most players she isnt too bad. Her Wimbledon record overall is pretty bad for a player of her status, 1 final where she got really badly destroyed while dominating the game, some other quarters where she mostly lost to not so great player- other than Davenport once, and a bunch of early round losses to nobodies she destroyed all the time on other surfaces even after the stabbing.
@kerstenfanatic It's true if you look at her career record. But with Seles, you need to distinct pre- and post-stabbing.
Pre-stabbing, she played only 3 times at wimbledon. 89 4th r, 90 quarters, 92, finals. Actually, this record in the 1st 3 participations is better than Graf's or Navratilova's (doesn't beat evert of course). That's why i'm saying that despite it being by FAR her worst surface, with no stabbing, she might have made it in 1993 or 1994.
@juju1305 I dont distinguish since Seles still had much better results on other surfaces besides grass even after the stabbing. Thus stabbing does not matter in this case. Seles was just not that good on grass compared to all other surfaces. Winning in 93 and 94? She wasnt beating either Graf or Novotna in 93. 94 maybe if she avoided an upset and any tough opponents. 94 would have been her only chance ever to win Wimbledon I think, but everything would have had to go perfect.
@kerstenfanatic Of course, all i'm saying is that her level dropped pre vs post. If you look at her early 93 matches, including the FO final against Graf, you can see how fit she was. And while the rebound ace favored her game, she still hit 8 aces in that final against Graf, which shows how much her serve was improving. This could have played a big role on grass. Again, the draw would have been different in 93, so you can't predict since she and graf could meet at no other stage than the final.
@juju1305 I think Seles's only chance to beat someone like Graf or another player of more overall skill on grass would be to serve exceptionally and win a ton of free points on serve. So yes an improving serve could have been a positive factor for her. I dont see her just overall outplaying Graf from the baseline to win like she does on other surfaces on grass.
@kerstenfanatic We'll never now anyway, but the improving serve had been one of the success factors for Seles in her last pre-stabbing match vs Graf. It's all in the past anyway, now, i'm just rooting for Serena to take as many slams as she can and prove she is the best woman ever to play the game ^^
@juju1305 I think the most slams Serena can probably realistically get is around 20. However that would put her in the discussion. The thing is everyone knows Serena at her best would beat all of Court, Evert, Graf, Navratilova, Seles, or anyone else most of the time except on clay which is her achilles heel- similar to Seles on grass. Even Venus and Henin at their best would fare well vs any of those women probably though will never have the numbers to show it mainly because of Serena.
@kerstenfanatic And this means 7 more to go, but it's feasible. She can realistically go with 2 more slams per year for another 2 or 3 years, unless a major new opponent shows up. I agree with your analysis very much otherwise.
@juju1305 I can see her win as many as 6- 8 of the next 13. Henin looked great in her comeback in Australia and it looked like she was a lock for the FO and contender for the otherss, but her form has fallen off since. Clijsters has fallen off this after the big U.S Open last year, playing well vs the big names but struggling to avoid upset losses. Venus is too old and faded, and Maria looks washed up. The other contenders and up and comers are mostly no hopers. So looks good for Serena now.
@kerstenfanatic yup, I feel the same. Had she beaten Stosur at the French, she could've won the calendar slam (which is the only feat she misses, having won the non-calendar one).
I see no real threat for her in the newcomers, Azarenka seemed to be dangerous for Serena, but she has dropped massively in the past months. Serena can beat any of the top players and Venus seems have lost her momentum. We'll see, but I think the USO and YEC trophies will bear the Williams name again.
@kerstenfanatic ur kidding i would love to see serena play graf with raquets from the same era,even today at age 42 graf would push her and steffis forehand wouldnt be the shot that beat her i think her slice backhand would confuse the hell out of serena
@errolmiranda Well, many predicted at the beginning of the year that she would not win anything this year, and she has already won two slams... so we'll see :)
@juju1305 OMGROFL serena doesnt touch what graf or nav did she will NEVER be called G.O.A.T on her grafs worst day she would beat serena in hetr prime ......all serena has is a booming serve graf in her prime would tear her to shreds.....hell graf beat her wen graf was 28 coming back from injury and serena was a teenager
@poxmanful Serena was 17. They played two matches, each winning one. That year, Graf came back to her very best beating hingis at the french and losing a close match to davenport in the wimbledon final. Serena would go on to win 13 slams after that which means she got a lot better than when they played each other. On her worst days, Graf could not handle the power of Pierce so how on earth do you think she would beat Serena at her best. Get real
@juju1305 you get real in grafs early years she was winning her matches sooo quicly it wasnt funny serena won 13 grand slams dude graf won 22 peirce never beat steffi and herprimeand if you think that a 30 year old graf was at her best u are off ur face she beat hingis cuz hingis imploded you really need to watch some off steffi's old matches then comment KID
@poxmanful oh really. Then you're the on who should do your homework. Pierce beat graf TWICE in 1994, including a 6-2 6-2 drubbing in the semifinal of the French open when graf was number one and had just completed a non-calendar slam. I've watched graf play since she started playing in 1983 and probably seen more than 200 of her matches live.
@juju1305 so graf beats pierce 4-2 and you comment on the 2 Graf in head to head with most the main players of the era was up on their head to head but u choose to talk bout the few matches she lost good on you /clap clap clap what bout the matches she won
@poxmanful I never questioned that. Graf dominated for most her career, except when Seles was the best until the stabbing. I was merely responding to your inaccurate statement that Pierce never beat Graf. All i'm saying is that even though she has less titles, Serena is a better player to me, having brought a new type of power, speed, better serve. this is my opinion, you don't have to agree, but stay polite.
@juju1305 my opinion differs serena vs a 1988 vintage graf would have seen grafs speed footwork and athletecism shine....she lost 2 matches all year both to sabatini and captured the golden slam ,thats when graf was at her best not as a 30 yr old in 1999
@poxmanful performance-wise it was Graf's best year, but come on, you're denying the evolution of tennis. Look at Graf-Evert AO88 and Graf-Sanchez-Vicario AO94... Steffi is faster, hits and serves harder in 94. And in 96, she was even better. There was no player of Serena's caliber back in the late 80s and when someone as good as seles arrived, Graf had to adapt her game as well. Playing like in 1988, she wouldnt have kept up.
@juju1305 williams woulld never have kept up with grafs speed graf was a racehorse on the court everything she did was a 100 miles a hour she playedher points fast she walked between points fast she drank her drink fast serena on the other hand is a booming serve ...THATS IT
@poxmanful you're entitled to your opinion but you should rewatch some of serena's matches, she's one of the fastest players ever. Serena beat Graf not having reached her peak though. Graf was used to overpower opponents but faced litteraly no one with Serena's combination of firepower, serve and speed, except seles.
@juju1305 yea ur right serena hadnt peaked and graf was over the hill and they finished up 1-1i dont think their head to head is relevant what is is the fact that graf could always dig deep in the big matches and somehow find a way to win (ask hingis bout that)that cant be taught.Serenas main competition was her sister after graf retired .graf played the best and beat the best over a 14 year period serena plays when she wants to andbecause of the shitty state of womens tennis
@poxmanful i agree on the h2h and today's tennis. As for competition, it's a tough call. Graf faced an ageing Navratilova and could never dominate her (h2h 9-9). She could not dominate Seles pre stabbing either, trailing 1-3 in slam finals, despite leading 6-4 overall. The rest were great player but not in the same league. And you know what happened to seles. Serena consistently dominated a bunch of great players: davenport, venus, henin, clijsters, hingis, sharapova
@poxmanful and serena had similar ways to dig herself out of almost lost matches, she did it more than anyone else, winning several slam titles after fighting off match points, so you can't really say she is less tough than Graf on that respect. as for longevity, Graf's an example, but serena reached the us open final this year, that is 12 years after her first final there...
@poxmanful tougher tour in the early 2000s, more demanding way of playing, tougher competition, less interest in smaller events. There are many reasons for that, Serena is clearly not a title collector like Graf, but there was no one better than her since she started playing. And again, Graf did not have to face the likes of Clijsters, Davenport, Henin, Venus, Dementieva, Sharapova and Mauresmo at their peak.
@juju1305 are u really saying the tour in the 2000's is tougher half of the hacks wouldnt survive rthe first round of a 80's /90's grand slam .They can hit the ball hard and serve big because of raquet technology is much better.......i would have loved to see graf /seles with todays raquets it would be mind blowing
@poxmanful and steffi was lucky enough to have her main competitor taken out of the game by a madman with a knife while serena had to deal with her sister being shot dead. You gotta give her credit for overcoming that not every one would be able to do so
@juju1305 and graf came back from 2 years of countless injuries and beat the best players in the worlds top 3 player and took out the 1999 french open and a few weeks after that reached the wimbledon final.........
@poxmanful I know ! It was an amazing performance. This is exactly why i consider that she was back to her brilliant best. I don't buy that "past her prime" when you see her FO99 and Wimb99 performances. And this is why I consider Serena better, because she beat Graf that year and won a slam, but wen on to become so much better than in 99.
@juju1305 they only ever played twice and it ended up 1 all i dont see how their h2h can be counted but steffi was far from her best in 99 she only entered the french to get some practice in for wimby but ended up winning the whole thing ,this tells me she was better than anyone else because she somehow managed to win "lost matches" graf was better in 88 89 90 91 94 95 96 she had so many injuries and missed the aus open for what could have been 2 more calender year grand slams because of injury
@poxmanful i agree on 95 and 96, but look back at her late 80s matches. She was the best on the tour but playwise, she got better in the mid 90s. 96 Graf is better than 88 graf technically speaking (faster serve, even stronger forehand, better racket), even if the year record doesn't show (because she played less). And Serena brought this to another level, despite not winning as much as graf or Navratilova.
@juju1305 i fail to see how when her only real competiton for most of her career was her sister.I know she had dramas with her other sister being murdered but she seemed to go on a "I'll play when i want" trip.In my opinion graf is better because of her overall consistency on all surfaces and her longevity.Serena appeared to have flashes of brillance mixed with flashes of mediocrity.She can not claim to have a record anywhere as good as graf or nav ,for that matter even evert .
@poxmanful but who was graf's real competitor ? there was none. The only real one was Seles and every one knows what happened. I agree on all your points. Graf has a much better record. What I was talking about was the way of playing itself.
@juju1305 I AGREE WE ARE NEVER GOING TO AGREE BUT TO BE HONEST I AM ENJOYING a civil debate minus the mudslinging i am a bit confused ,is there a diff from goat and best to ever play and givin that graf has won more that tells me she played better tennis i watched a vid off her practicing with one of the new girls (i forget her name ) and graf was keeping up with her rather easily graf was a better athlete than anyone and graf was a more consistent winner
@poxmanful it was petkovic if i recall correctly and Graf looked in great shape. She also played a set vs clijsters at wimbledon last year and lost 6-4, not a bad performance. Graf was always a great athlete. On the other hand, she played a competitive match against date-krumm 2 years ago and lost 6-2 6-3 if i recall correctly, so not like the old graf would i guess. as I said it's an endless debate. At least we can agree that Serena is the best SINCE Graf left the tour :)
@juju1305 I can agree on that when graf retired hingis was shot and the only girls to stand up and grab the bull by the horns were the williams sisters and davenport .....however i still consider the day graf retired as the day womens tennis died
@poxmanful partly true. But the sisters, Henin, Clijsters have produced some great matches too. For me the worst was Seles' stabbing. It was good for Graf, bad for the tour. This rivalry was the new evert-navratilova and could have reached new heights. their 92 and 93 matches were beautiful. then all was left was ASV and an erratic Pierce.
@juju1305 I GEUSS MY POINT IS MAINLY THAT WHEN GRAF RETIRED THERE REALLY WASNT extended dominance in the game .For a long time there was a different top seed at every grand slam and none of the matches were of the quality seles/graf finals.Graf lost out almost as much as seles when she was stabbed graf was only 20 pts in front of seles at the time of the stabbing and was closing in fast.some people say seles was robbed others graf was robbed me i say we were all robbed of some truely epic matche
@poxmanful I agree on that. But the ranking system back then was even more fucked up than the current one. By today's standards, by no means could have graf been that close point-wise, with seles havin won 3 slams, the YEC, another 6 titles and being runner up at wimbledon (and she had just missed out 2 months). I fully agree on the fans being robbed, but Seles lost endorsements and her fitness in the process. I guess she was the primary victim after all.
@juju1305 yupl .another consideration is that in 3 years the no 1 nd 2 played each other 4 times that is a ridiculously low amount of times .While seles was definately no 1 and deserved to be I dont think it was at grafs expense graf really wasnt her bitch .The 2 of them were so clearly a cut above everybody else it was almost shameful and there matches were so close and epic it was a shame to see either girl lose .seles had a annoying knack off winning the big matches
@poxmanful youre right. they did not face each other that much. But still, they stood against each other in 3 of the 4 last slam finals prior to the stabbing. Only the USO92 final had someone else challenge Seles. Graf was back to her brilliant best so it's even more a shame that she did not get to play Seles as 1993 went on. And what happened to Seles is just horrible. Parche was a piece of shit
@juju1305 steffi was also changing her game to battle monicas 2 fisted gruntfest she introduced her slice backhand and was coming to the net a lot more where she proved to be a very good volleyer but seles was still clearly no 1 when she was stabbed but graf wasnt a shot duck she was coming back at her with all she had the 92 fo final was the best womens tennis match i had ever seen and i doubt i will see a better one in my lifetime.The anges seles could get of both wings were amazing
@poxmanful oh yeah, if you look at the 1992 wimbledon final, Graf played a perfect match, including great shots at the net. Ironically, it was Seles who then played a very versatile game of attack, defense, powerful serve and even volleying in their last pre-stabbing match at the Australian Open 1993. When you watch it, Graf is clearly lost from a tactical perspective in the second and third set.
@juju1305 yea i remeber thinking when graf won 92 wimby thats the best i seen steffi play ,seles had no answers and graf was getting to balls that against any other player were definate winners seles proved in that match on grass she was shit .ao 93 seles kicked her ass that simple.i still think their greatest match was 92 fo it was a shame someone had to lose that match
@poxmanful i wouldn't say shit, she had just beaten navratilova in the semis. Graf played a great match and seles was too tentative. to me there best match technically speaking pre stabbing is AO93, FO92 being the most intense, but it had more unforced errors, etc... but the tension was incredible.
i also noticed 92 was around the time heinz gunthard started coaching graf and she wasn't running around her backhand to hit a forehand as much she was much more confident in her backhand and her slice bh especially on clay where the ball stays low is a incredible weapon ,I'm surprised more players dont use it
@poxmanful yes, it was a great shot, especially on the very fast grass back in the 90s. Now that surfaces are more neutral and grass got slower, i wonder if it would be as efficient. It was the best slice ever though, much faster than that of novotna, martinez or navratilova.
@juju1305 i have the feeling it would be more effective now with court not being as fast and possibly in the 2nd week staying really low.It would be hard to keep scooping that from around ur ankles
@poxmanful I don't know. On neutral hard courts, against players who have more pace and spin than in the past, I don't think so, on grass and clay though, for sure. Schiavone used a ot of slice on her way to winning the French last year and reaching the final this year. It's still a great weapon.
@juju1305 i geuss thats why graf is the best in my veiw.Regardless off the surface she would win .she could adapt to different surfaces better than anyone before her or after her and its unique for a tennis player.if u look at grafs h2h only 2 players have a equl h2h .Graf is the best alll court player in history and in my opinion greatest of all time.seles fans say graf won cuz monica was stabbed but graf lost 2 years to injury at the end of her career could have been many more grand slams
@poxmanful endless debate :) Evert has a better win/loss average and navratilova won so much more than anyone else. I would go for Graf had the stabbing not happened and had she had the same results with seles around. In the period of time Seles won 8 slams, 3 YEC, Graf won only two slams, no YEC, then restarted winning big with seles out. It's understandable that observers question how their careers would have evolved had Seles not been stabbed.
@poxmanful i think we can agree on disagreeing. :) I was not discussing GOAT which in women's tennis is an endless debate, i was only discussing the tennis itself and for me, at her very best, Serena is better than anyone ever to play.
@poxmanful i really dont see how u can compare the 2 of them grafs record speaks for itself and has stood the test of time .for serena to be names GOAT she better start playing and winning a lot more
GRAF NEVER HAD A LOSING h2 against seles even though seles won more grand slams but a lot of that wasnt at grafs expense and the period around 91-early 92 graf was in a slump.I really wished they played more times than they did.Over their whole career they only played 15 times thats over a 10 yr period.Grafs adaptability over all surfaces is what makes me give her goat status nobody has done what she has.If players get acareer goldenslam these days praise is heaped upon them graf did it in year
poxmanful 3 months ago
@TrueGreatSteffiGraf enter graf vs seles wimbledon 1992 on you tube search and look for saschamen76 he had the whole match posted in including the awarding ceremony but it was in German though.
pangetkunu 7 months ago
I remember watching this match and being in awe of how well Steffi played. She totally thrashed Seles despite all the rain delays
pb123451508 10 months ago
Not that I am saying Serena needs easier competion. Just that as it is there really isnt anyone to challenge her until some of the other top ones get their acts together again or the next generation emerges. The current contenders are all not in slam winning form (Henin, Kim, Venus, Maria), not good enough to do more than fluke the odd slam win maybe (Kuznetsova, Dementieva, Jankovic, Stosur) and the current up and comers arent that good either (Wozniacki, Azarenka, Radwanska).
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
the grass was ridiculously fast (much better these days), Graf incredibly good and Seles surprisingly deflated...
She played a lot better 6 months later against the same opponent in Australia
juju1305 2 years ago
@juju1305 Of course she played better. The Australian Open final wasnt on grass. Seles was shit on grass. Her final at Wimbledon was pretty much a fluke. Seles was never capable of that kind of tennis like the 93 Australian Open final on grass. Graf isnt even that good on rebound ace either, it is her worst surface by far and her slice backhand sits up like a fluffball on it, although she still won 4 titles vs joke competition on it.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic "shit" might be exagerated, she beat Navratilova in the semis after all. With no Graf around, she might have 2 or 3 wimbledons to her name.
Of course, rebound ace made the Graf backhand look harmless, but back in 1993, Graf had 3 AO titles in 5 participations (i'm excluding her early 80s runs at the AO because it was another surface). Her ratio was much lower on the Paris clay, so I wouldn't say it was her worst surface, but definetely the one where she could not beat SeleS.
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 Seles and Sanchez combined kept Graf from winning 8 French Opens. Even without Seles ever around Graf would have won only 5 Australians. So I think it is by far her worst surface, she isnt better on rebound ace than clay if that is what you mean. Remember Graf got destroyed by Coetzer there once too, got lucky to beat a choking Sukova in 1990, and overall yeah she won 4 but she had joke draws and opponents most times doing it.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic Actually it could have been even more since both Sanchez and Seles beat her twice at the French. And I agree about the draws too but 3 titles with no loss on the same surface in a row is still very impressive.
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 it is impressive but Graf is still very beatable on rebound ace. Hingis in her prime would also have been better than Graf on the surface. Navratilova in her prime would have been even worse than Graf, she is lucky the Australian Open wasnt on rebound ace as that would have been her worst surface too, even more than clay. Evert would have dominated even a peak Navratilova on that very bouncy and slow Court I predict and would have changed how people viewed their rivalry.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic I agree with your analysis. :) Still Martina at her peak beat evert on clay, so you could never count her out ;)
juju1305 1 year ago
At the 88 Australian Evert was even older than Martina and just whipped her. You cant count Martina out but I am pretty sure rebound ace would have been the worst surface for Martina to play Chris or a top baseliner with her serve and volley game, moreso than even clay. And Navratilova also slices the majority of her backhands, most especialy her approach shots coming into the net, another negative for her on rebound ace.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic That's true :)
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 what I mean is Seles on rubbish on grass compared to what she is on other surfaces. For the standards of most players she isnt too bad. Her Wimbledon record overall is pretty bad for a player of her status, 1 final where she got really badly destroyed while dominating the game, some other quarters where she mostly lost to not so great player- other than Davenport once, and a bunch of early round losses to nobodies she destroyed all the time on other surfaces even after the stabbing.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic It's true if you look at her career record. But with Seles, you need to distinct pre- and post-stabbing.
Pre-stabbing, she played only 3 times at wimbledon. 89 4th r, 90 quarters, 92, finals. Actually, this record in the 1st 3 participations is better than Graf's or Navratilova's (doesn't beat evert of course). That's why i'm saying that despite it being by FAR her worst surface, with no stabbing, she might have made it in 1993 or 1994.
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 I dont distinguish since Seles still had much better results on other surfaces besides grass even after the stabbing. Thus stabbing does not matter in this case. Seles was just not that good on grass compared to all other surfaces. Winning in 93 and 94? She wasnt beating either Graf or Novotna in 93. 94 maybe if she avoided an upset and any tough opponents. 94 would have been her only chance ever to win Wimbledon I think, but everything would have had to go perfect.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic Of course, all i'm saying is that her level dropped pre vs post. If you look at her early 93 matches, including the FO final against Graf, you can see how fit she was. And while the rebound ace favored her game, she still hit 8 aces in that final against Graf, which shows how much her serve was improving. This could have played a big role on grass. Again, the draw would have been different in 93, so you can't predict since she and graf could meet at no other stage than the final.
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 I think Seles's only chance to beat someone like Graf or another player of more overall skill on grass would be to serve exceptionally and win a ton of free points on serve. So yes an improving serve could have been a positive factor for her. I dont see her just overall outplaying Graf from the baseline to win like she does on other surfaces on grass.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic We'll never now anyway, but the improving serve had been one of the success factors for Seles in her last pre-stabbing match vs Graf. It's all in the past anyway, now, i'm just rooting for Serena to take as many slams as she can and prove she is the best woman ever to play the game ^^
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 I think the most slams Serena can probably realistically get is around 20. However that would put her in the discussion. The thing is everyone knows Serena at her best would beat all of Court, Evert, Graf, Navratilova, Seles, or anyone else most of the time except on clay which is her achilles heel- similar to Seles on grass. Even Venus and Henin at their best would fare well vs any of those women probably though will never have the numbers to show it mainly because of Serena.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic And this means 7 more to go, but it's feasible. She can realistically go with 2 more slams per year for another 2 or 3 years, unless a major new opponent shows up. I agree with your analysis very much otherwise.
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 I can see her win as many as 6- 8 of the next 13. Henin looked great in her comeback in Australia and it looked like she was a lock for the FO and contender for the otherss, but her form has fallen off since. Clijsters has fallen off this after the big U.S Open last year, playing well vs the big names but struggling to avoid upset losses. Venus is too old and faded, and Maria looks washed up. The other contenders and up and comers are mostly no hopers. So looks good for Serena now.
kerstenfanatic 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic yup, I feel the same. Had she beaten Stosur at the French, she could've won the calendar slam (which is the only feat she misses, having won the non-calendar one).
I see no real threat for her in the newcomers, Azarenka seemed to be dangerous for Serena, but she has dropped massively in the past months. Serena can beat any of the top players and Venus seems have lost her momentum. We'll see, but I think the USO and YEC trophies will bear the Williams name again.
juju1305 1 year ago
@kerstenfanatic ur kidding i would love to see serena play graf with raquets from the same era,even today at age 42 graf would push her and steffis forehand wouldnt be the shot that beat her i think her slice backhand would confuse the hell out of serena
poxmanful 4 months ago
@juju1305 = Keep waiting . I am never wrong! Serena will never win a Grand Slam after 12 months. Pray she wins whatever she can within this time.
She will NEVER EVER AGAIN win a Grand Slam ! 2010 is the year she can win the most she ever has. Never again post this year will she dominate. NEVER!
errolmiranda 1 year ago
@errolmiranda Well, many predicted at the beginning of the year that she would not win anything this year, and she has already won two slams... so we'll see :)
juju1305 1 year ago
@juju1305 OMGROFL serena doesnt touch what graf or nav did she will NEVER be called G.O.A.T on her grafs worst day she would beat serena in hetr prime ......all serena has is a booming serve graf in her prime would tear her to shreds.....hell graf beat her wen graf was 28 coming back from injury and serena was a teenager
poxmanful 4 months ago
@poxmanful Serena was 17. They played two matches, each winning one. That year, Graf came back to her very best beating hingis at the french and losing a close match to davenport in the wimbledon final. Serena would go on to win 13 slams after that which means she got a lot better than when they played each other. On her worst days, Graf could not handle the power of Pierce so how on earth do you think she would beat Serena at her best. Get real
juju1305 4 months ago
@juju1305 you get real in grafs early years she was winning her matches sooo quicly it wasnt funny serena won 13 grand slams dude graf won 22 peirce never beat steffi and herprimeand if you think that a 30 year old graf was at her best u are off ur face she beat hingis cuz hingis imploded you really need to watch some off steffi's old matches then comment KID
poxmanful 4 months ago
@poxmanful oh really. Then you're the on who should do your homework. Pierce beat graf TWICE in 1994, including a 6-2 6-2 drubbing in the semifinal of the French open when graf was number one and had just completed a non-calendar slam. I've watched graf play since she started playing in 1983 and probably seen more than 200 of her matches live.
juju1305 4 months ago
@juju1305 so graf beats pierce 4-2 and you comment on the 2 Graf in head to head with most the main players of the era was up on their head to head but u choose to talk bout the few matches she lost good on you /clap clap clap what bout the matches she won
poxmanful 4 months ago
@poxmanful I never questioned that. Graf dominated for most her career, except when Seles was the best until the stabbing. I was merely responding to your inaccurate statement that Pierce never beat Graf. All i'm saying is that even though she has less titles, Serena is a better player to me, having brought a new type of power, speed, better serve. this is my opinion, you don't have to agree, but stay polite.
juju1305 4 months ago
@juju1305 my opinion differs serena vs a 1988 vintage graf would have seen grafs speed footwork and athletecism shine....she lost 2 matches all year both to sabatini and captured the golden slam ,thats when graf was at her best not as a 30 yr old in 1999
poxmanful 4 months ago
@poxmanful performance-wise it was Graf's best year, but come on, you're denying the evolution of tennis. Look at Graf-Evert AO88 and Graf-Sanchez-Vicario AO94... Steffi is faster, hits and serves harder in 94. And in 96, she was even better. There was no player of Serena's caliber back in the late 80s and when someone as good as seles arrived, Graf had to adapt her game as well. Playing like in 1988, she wouldnt have kept up.
juju1305 4 months ago
@juju1305 williams woulld never have kept up with grafs speed graf was a racehorse on the court everything she did was a 100 miles a hour she playedher points fast she walked between points fast she drank her drink fast serena on the other hand is a booming serve ...THATS IT
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful you're entitled to your opinion but you should rewatch some of serena's matches, she's one of the fastest players ever. Serena beat Graf not having reached her peak though. Graf was used to overpower opponents but faced litteraly no one with Serena's combination of firepower, serve and speed, except seles.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 yea ur right serena hadnt peaked and graf was over the hill and they finished up 1-1i dont think their head to head is relevant what is is the fact that graf could always dig deep in the big matches and somehow find a way to win (ask hingis bout that)that cant be taught.Serenas main competition was her sister after graf retired .graf played the best and beat the best over a 14 year period serena plays when she wants to andbecause of the shitty state of womens tennis
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful i agree on the h2h and today's tennis. As for competition, it's a tough call. Graf faced an ageing Navratilova and could never dominate her (h2h 9-9). She could not dominate Seles pre stabbing either, trailing 1-3 in slam finals, despite leading 6-4 overall. The rest were great player but not in the same league. And you know what happened to seles. Serena consistently dominated a bunch of great players: davenport, venus, henin, clijsters, hingis, sharapova
juju1305 3 months ago
@poxmanful and serena had similar ways to dig herself out of almost lost matches, she did it more than anyone else, winning several slam titles after fighting off match points, so you can't really say she is less tough than Graf on that respect. as for longevity, Graf's an example, but serena reached the us open final this year, that is 12 years after her first final there...
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 and she had half of grafs success
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful tougher tour in the early 2000s, more demanding way of playing, tougher competition, less interest in smaller events. There are many reasons for that, Serena is clearly not a title collector like Graf, but there was no one better than her since she started playing. And again, Graf did not have to face the likes of Clijsters, Davenport, Henin, Venus, Dementieva, Sharapova and Mauresmo at their peak.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 are u really saying the tour in the 2000's is tougher half of the hacks wouldnt survive rthe first round of a 80's /90's grand slam .They can hit the ball hard and serve big because of raquet technology is much better.......i would have loved to see graf /seles with todays raquets it would be mind blowing
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful and steffi was lucky enough to have her main competitor taken out of the game by a madman with a knife while serena had to deal with her sister being shot dead. You gotta give her credit for overcoming that not every one would be able to do so
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 and graf came back from 2 years of countless injuries and beat the best players in the worlds top 3 player and took out the 1999 french open and a few weeks after that reached the wimbledon final.........
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful I know ! It was an amazing performance. This is exactly why i consider that she was back to her brilliant best. I don't buy that "past her prime" when you see her FO99 and Wimb99 performances. And this is why I consider Serena better, because she beat Graf that year and won a slam, but wen on to become so much better than in 99.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 they only ever played twice and it ended up 1 all i dont see how their h2h can be counted but steffi was far from her best in 99 she only entered the french to get some practice in for wimby but ended up winning the whole thing ,this tells me she was better than anyone else because she somehow managed to win "lost matches" graf was better in 88 89 90 91 94 95 96 she had so many injuries and missed the aus open for what could have been 2 more calender year grand slams because of injury
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful i agree on 95 and 96, but look back at her late 80s matches. She was the best on the tour but playwise, she got better in the mid 90s. 96 Graf is better than 88 graf technically speaking (faster serve, even stronger forehand, better racket), even if the year record doesn't show (because she played less). And Serena brought this to another level, despite not winning as much as graf or Navratilova.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 i fail to see how when her only real competiton for most of her career was her sister.I know she had dramas with her other sister being murdered but she seemed to go on a "I'll play when i want" trip.In my opinion graf is better because of her overall consistency on all surfaces and her longevity.Serena appeared to have flashes of brillance mixed with flashes of mediocrity.She can not claim to have a record anywhere as good as graf or nav ,for that matter even evert .
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful but who was graf's real competitor ? there was none. The only real one was Seles and every one knows what happened. I agree on all your points. Graf has a much better record. What I was talking about was the way of playing itself.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 I AGREE WE ARE NEVER GOING TO AGREE BUT TO BE HONEST I AM ENJOYING a civil debate minus the mudslinging i am a bit confused ,is there a diff from goat and best to ever play and givin that graf has won more that tells me she played better tennis i watched a vid off her practicing with one of the new girls (i forget her name ) and graf was keeping up with her rather easily graf was a better athlete than anyone and graf was a more consistent winner
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful it was petkovic if i recall correctly and Graf looked in great shape. She also played a set vs clijsters at wimbledon last year and lost 6-4, not a bad performance. Graf was always a great athlete. On the other hand, she played a competitive match against date-krumm 2 years ago and lost 6-2 6-3 if i recall correctly, so not like the old graf would i guess. as I said it's an endless debate. At least we can agree that Serena is the best SINCE Graf left the tour :)
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 I can agree on that when graf retired hingis was shot and the only girls to stand up and grab the bull by the horns were the williams sisters and davenport .....however i still consider the day graf retired as the day womens tennis died
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful partly true. But the sisters, Henin, Clijsters have produced some great matches too. For me the worst was Seles' stabbing. It was good for Graf, bad for the tour. This rivalry was the new evert-navratilova and could have reached new heights. their 92 and 93 matches were beautiful. then all was left was ASV and an erratic Pierce.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 I GEUSS MY POINT IS MAINLY THAT WHEN GRAF RETIRED THERE REALLY WASNT extended dominance in the game .For a long time there was a different top seed at every grand slam and none of the matches were of the quality seles/graf finals.Graf lost out almost as much as seles when she was stabbed graf was only 20 pts in front of seles at the time of the stabbing and was closing in fast.some people say seles was robbed others graf was robbed me i say we were all robbed of some truely epic matche
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful I agree on that. But the ranking system back then was even more fucked up than the current one. By today's standards, by no means could have graf been that close point-wise, with seles havin won 3 slams, the YEC, another 6 titles and being runner up at wimbledon (and she had just missed out 2 months). I fully agree on the fans being robbed, but Seles lost endorsements and her fitness in the process. I guess she was the primary victim after all.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 yupl .another consideration is that in 3 years the no 1 nd 2 played each other 4 times that is a ridiculously low amount of times .While seles was definately no 1 and deserved to be I dont think it was at grafs expense graf really wasnt her bitch .The 2 of them were so clearly a cut above everybody else it was almost shameful and there matches were so close and epic it was a shame to see either girl lose .seles had a annoying knack off winning the big matches
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful youre right. they did not face each other that much. But still, they stood against each other in 3 of the 4 last slam finals prior to the stabbing. Only the USO92 final had someone else challenge Seles. Graf was back to her brilliant best so it's even more a shame that she did not get to play Seles as 1993 went on. And what happened to Seles is just horrible. Parche was a piece of shit
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 steffi was also changing her game to battle monicas 2 fisted gruntfest she introduced her slice backhand and was coming to the net a lot more where she proved to be a very good volleyer but seles was still clearly no 1 when she was stabbed but graf wasnt a shot duck she was coming back at her with all she had the 92 fo final was the best womens tennis match i had ever seen and i doubt i will see a better one in my lifetime.The anges seles could get of both wings were amazing
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful oh yeah, if you look at the 1992 wimbledon final, Graf played a perfect match, including great shots at the net. Ironically, it was Seles who then played a very versatile game of attack, defense, powerful serve and even volleying in their last pre-stabbing match at the Australian Open 1993. When you watch it, Graf is clearly lost from a tactical perspective in the second and third set.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 yea i remeber thinking when graf won 92 wimby thats the best i seen steffi play ,seles had no answers and graf was getting to balls that against any other player were definate winners seles proved in that match on grass she was shit .ao 93 seles kicked her ass that simple.i still think their greatest match was 92 fo it was a shame someone had to lose that match
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful i wouldn't say shit, she had just beaten navratilova in the semis. Graf played a great match and seles was too tentative. to me there best match technically speaking pre stabbing is AO93, FO92 being the most intense, but it had more unforced errors, etc... but the tension was incredible.
juju1305 3 months ago
i also noticed 92 was around the time heinz gunthard started coaching graf and she wasn't running around her backhand to hit a forehand as much she was much more confident in her backhand and her slice bh especially on clay where the ball stays low is a incredible weapon ,I'm surprised more players dont use it
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful yes, it was a great shot, especially on the very fast grass back in the 90s. Now that surfaces are more neutral and grass got slower, i wonder if it would be as efficient. It was the best slice ever though, much faster than that of novotna, martinez or navratilova.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 i have the feeling it would be more effective now with court not being as fast and possibly in the 2nd week staying really low.It would be hard to keep scooping that from around ur ankles
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful I don't know. On neutral hard courts, against players who have more pace and spin than in the past, I don't think so, on grass and clay though, for sure. Schiavone used a ot of slice on her way to winning the French last year and reaching the final this year. It's still a great weapon.
juju1305 3 months ago
@juju1305 i geuss thats why graf is the best in my veiw.Regardless off the surface she would win .she could adapt to different surfaces better than anyone before her or after her and its unique for a tennis player.if u look at grafs h2h only 2 players have a equl h2h .Graf is the best alll court player in history and in my opinion greatest of all time.seles fans say graf won cuz monica was stabbed but graf lost 2 years to injury at the end of her career could have been many more grand slams
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful endless debate :) Evert has a better win/loss average and navratilova won so much more than anyone else. I would go for Graf had the stabbing not happened and had she had the same results with seles around. In the period of time Seles won 8 slams, 3 YEC, Graf won only two slams, no YEC, then restarted winning big with seles out. It's understandable that observers question how their careers would have evolved had Seles not been stabbed.
juju1305 3 months ago
@poxmanful they allways played extremely close matches because they were the only 2 players at that level
poxmanful 3 months ago
@poxmanful i think we can agree on disagreeing. :) I was not discussing GOAT which in women's tennis is an endless debate, i was only discussing the tennis itself and for me, at her very best, Serena is better than anyone ever to play.
juju1305 3 months ago
@poxmanful i really dont see how u can compare the 2 of them grafs record speaks for itself and has stood the test of time .for serena to be names GOAT she better start playing and winning a lot more
poxmanful 3 months ago
Steffi, I love you!!! thanks for posting! :)
alejandrinus 2 years ago