David Foster Wallace on Drugs and Entertainment in Infinite Jest

[JayGatsbyOdysseus]

I've read maybe 100 books in my life, really not that many. I've even read some difficult books, Ulysses, the Bible, Satanic Verses. I want to read IJ badly. I read three the first three pages of IJ on Google Books. I really didnt' like Wallace's style. I don't know if I want to struggle through another massive, difficult book, but I know I must. It is like he says in some interview. You got to struggle through if you want to get to the good stuff. It's not TV.

[MasonClark93]

He is absolutely right when he says that "drugs and entertainment is escape, yes? From my problems and my life." Both mediums of life experience are just entirely superficial and real can separate a person from their reality into this world of happiness that lacks the real desperation of their own life. Wallace was just absolutely brilliant.

[garbledstoic]

Every time I watch this I think what a waste any suicide is. I also wonder how little we know about what truly makes us happy, or even if happiness is simply illusion. DFW seems to be saying that we are confused about this because that confusion is a source of wealth for certain elements in our society. I don't know if I agree totally with him. I do know that "freedom" is twisted to advocate all sorts of activities that are inherently bad for us, both physically and mentally.

[Nothing2Nothing90]

21st century myth that weed is fine and danty

[LukaszPrzek]

idk what to worship in my life :(

[goodvibesallround]

1:09 Well it worked for William S Burroughs.

[oldoddjobs]

According to Wallace, "corporate capitalist logic" means "I want to feel exactly the way I want to feel, which is good, for exactly this long, and so I will exchange a certain amount of cash for this substance."

Same "logic" applies to food, water, electricity etc,. You pays your money and you takes your choice! The existence of money is not responsible for man's desire for intoxication. The satisfaction of one's desires, be they wise or foolish, cannot be described as "capitalistic".

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Satisfying one's immediate material desires is the most capitalistic idea in existence. A capitalistic society is absolutely dependent on people satisfying there immediate material desires all the time. If tomorrow everyone in the U.S. decided that satisfying there own desires was not the most important thing in life, and stopped satisfying these material desires, the economy would implode. Wallace's point is that "Feeling good" has become a material desire.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth Psychological states can not be accurately described as 'capitalistic', 'communistic' etc. A capitalistic society is not "dependent on people satisfying there immediate material desires all the time." - how do you support such an an obscure statement? Do you blame McDonalds for obesity? I don't, because I can at least see that McDonalds do not force anyone to do anything. I blame individual choices. If you want to eat yourself fat, go ahead - just don't blame capitalism, tubby.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Only a capitalist society would say you can buy happiness, and that is exactly what people think they're buying when they get drugs. Think about non-capitalist societies that used drugs. I can't think of any that used them for pure entertainment. The ancient Greeks thought alcohol put them in touch with their bestial, primal nature, the Native Americans used peyote to learn about themselves, etc. The capitalist approach to drugs is the same as to any other product- to feel good.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth I am confused once more by your conflation of individuals, society, state, and economic systems. Humans have always sought to intoxicate themselves, not always for the supposedly higher purposes you mention. Romanticizing "the ancient greeks" and "the native americans" is a similar blunder. The distinction between using drugs for "pure entertainment" and using them to learn about oneself is not as clear cut as you suggest, and it has nothing to do with the accumulation of capital.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs The ancient Greeks worshipped a god called Dionysius. Followers of Dionysius believed they needed to experience their bestial animal natures, this was accomplished by getting drunk, and hunting animals and ripping them apart while still alive, although not both at the same time. Wallace is talking about our desire to feel happy, and our belief this can be accomplished through purchasing products like drugs. His point is this belief stems from living in a capitalist society.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth Happiness may or may not be found through the use of drugs. Drugs have been used for thousands of years for a variety of idiosyncratic reasons. The claim that a uniquely modern desire for "happiness" through the use of drugs not only exists, but is a logical consequence of private property rights, accumulation of capital, and a relatively free market... is absurd.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Listen to what I'm saying: The belief that we can buy happiness stems from living in a capitalistic society. Why is it that absurd?

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth I am listening and responding directly to your remarks. How about you? Repeating the same bald assertion over and over does not constitute an argument. The belief that "we" can buy happiness is as old as civilization. Ever hear of the myth of King Midas? Or read the Bible? By the way, don't you think winning the lottery would make you happy?

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs 1. No, I don't think winning the lottery would make me happy. As for Midas, he was not exchanging money to purchase a product, he was getting it for free. As for the Bible, it agrees with me that money is the root of all evil- i.e., believing that money can give happiness leads to despair and greed. You are the one rejecting my claim, so you need to provide reasons why my claim is absurd beyond simply saying it is absurd.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth We have both failed to define our terms, I think. Take the lottery thing, for example - I mean that it would make you happy in a trivial, obvious sense. It would take care of your material concerns, guarantee your livelihood, feed you, improve your quality of life etc,. The very fact that you can spend time pondering the nature of 'true' happiness is a luxury, and a result of the production of wealth through capitalism.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth The people who squander their lottery winnings and become regretful are those who genuinely believed it would make them happy in the deeper sense you imply. To you and me, it would simply be an extraordinary boon - we can still set about the business of cultivating happiness in the fullest sense. But you have won the lottery! You are living in luxury, a luxury the kings of old couldn't even have dreamed of. Most people on this planet see happiness as a meal, a house, a job.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth If you define happy as "something no amount of money could ever give me", then yes of course winning the lottery wouldn't make you happy! Do you see the problem? If I offer you tomorrow's winning ticket, you'd take it. You'd prefer to have that money. You could give it to worthy causes, give it to the needy - surely that would make you happy? Virtue is its own reward. I do not believe that money is the "root of all evil", I believe that mankind is. Humans ruining it for everyone.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs I can see you're intelligent person, so tell me how living in a capitalistic society does not influence our beliefs about how we can gain happiness. Let's even assume humans are inherently capitalistic creatures.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Lets assume people naturally believe happiness can be got by getting something external. This might be anything- drugs, a tree, a girl, a piece of land. They have this belief prior to money or any sort of "on paper" capitalistic system. However, capitalism is an instantiation of this belief, this belief = latent capitalism. So, I can say that the logic of this belief is virtually the logic of capitalism, and indeed that is what Wallace is basically saying. Do you agree or disagree?

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Or better yet, let's say that capitalism provides the perfect environment in which this natural desire can grow, to the extent that capitalism eventually comes to mirror this desire. After all, if it makes profit, it stays around. In other words, "capitalist logic" is now synonymous with logic of desire. If we're still at an impasse, I don't think we can settle this anymore, although I must admit I have really loved this exchange, very enlightening.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth I agree that capitalist logic is the logic of desire, as it's an economic system based on voluntary, free trade between individuals. Look, say I'm going camping - I buy a sleeping bag and a tent. Does this make me happy? Of course, it satisfies my desires and I can have a pleasant night of star-gazing or whatever. Does it make me happy like a song or a sonnet or seeing drops of dew on the nose of a fawn? No. The trouble is, we are not floating brains. We are haunted meat.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs As a metaphor, if my hand is the logic of desire, then capitalism is a shiny leather glove that makes it wonderfully easy and self-reassuring to grab things. So wonderful, in fact, that I come to like the glove more than my own hand.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth Profit is an expression of human desire. Coca-cola makes money because millions of people everyday decide they want one. I am all for the satisfaction of people's desires, so long as their satisfaction does not impinge on mine. That is, if you like, the signature philosophy of the western world. I heartily approve and would love to see more of it in action.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs My source is Bertrand Russell's "The History of Western Philosophy"

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs Believe it or not, people have not always thought about the world and themselves in the same way. I believe Nietschze wrote, "Man does not desire to be happy; only the Englishman desires that." The society we live in informs how we view the world to a tremendous extent, and not all world views are necessarily good. A person born and raised in a capitalist society will view the world, and what it means to be happy, very differently than someone who was not.

[oldoddjobs]

@Anxiousloth I agree with all of these truisms.

[Anxiousloth]

@oldoddjobs You can't compare food, water, and electricity to "feeling good". These are matters of survival (minus electricity). He's not talking about all Desires, like say your desire to continue breathing, just material, luxury desires.

[gofishdino]

I love that the way he speaks about Infinite Jest. To him it's just like a memory.

[poolrug]

Miss this genius. Like Alexander McQueen, his depression had to so horribly painful, he took his life, apparently in the same manner. What a curse--depression.

[PatrickWhite1985]

He was obviously brilliant, and he has my complete respect, but I nevertheless find him quite annoying. There's something about the way his speaks -- I think it is the way that he under-enunciates (seems to enjoy the sound of his own voice) -- that bugs me. Am I the only one?

[BloggerMusicMan]

@PatrickWhite1985

Not really, although I think he's a better writer than speaker. But each to his own.

What do you think of him as an authour, if you've read anything he's written?

[PatrickWhite1985]

@BloggerMusicMan Fair enough; I think I wrote that comment in a bad mood, I don't find him so annoying anymore.

I have a copy of Infinite Jest on my shelf and I am currently working my way through brief interview with hideous men...so far it is very good, although each story seems to require two or three readings before I feel like I have any type of understanding of it.

Have you read any of his stuff.

[BloggerMusicMan]

@PatrickWhite1985

Ah ok. I think we say things we don't mean at some point.

I've also read many of the short stories from Brief Interviews with Hideous Men, as well as the first 230 pages of Infinite Jest, and many of his essays (some from Consider The Lobster, some from the New York Times, etc). I'd agree with the hardness level of Infinite Jest at least (I don't find BIWHM hard), but reading through things multiple times can be very fulfilling when you find things out.

[JohnGoodman909]

Drugs - a pretty natural extension of corporate capitalist logic. Awesome.

[diahni]

RIP, DFW - I'm so sorry he had to suffer from depression - his gifts and his disease are quite different. Too bad the disease won. Even if it didn't, it's a terrible thing to endure.

[calabiyou]

love his essays, sfiwda, ctl. infnte jest, gwch. good stuff. cant get past darkness of some later stuff. what did he think of the kindle?

[MetamorphoseostouXR]

So brilliant, so smart, so CUTE too. And so suffering.

DFW was too much for this world. Find myself crying when I think at him by chance.

[Hugo411]

Just Announced. DFW' s ghost will be back for 24 hours to provide commentary for all the BICKERING ON YOU TUBE, which will also serve as the title for his posthumous novel out in 2011.

[lmaozeen]

he was sooooo attractive. sigh.

[poppoppoppop555]

That feeling when you realize you'll never be able to meet this man :'(

[PtAltmVansanTarr]

Brilliant person

[0haxx]

the last sentence is also a quote from ij =)

[jordansky]

This guy is OUR BROTHER!!!

[BloggerMusicMan]

The last thing he says is really insightful. I'm not even sure if it's true, but it really does make you think, and prompting questions is in my opinion even better than providing answers.

[eits1986]

His intelligence frightens me. If only the world could be populated by personalities like his.

[philipsmog]

@PetieHogan Russel Crowe is too old and butch and gravelly voiced, the only actor who could play DFW similar personality, voice and face is Paul Schneider.

[tinyvox]

Still can't get over how Microsoft called its new search thingy "Bing". Hi-larious.

[8644371]

This fucker! Why'd he have to kill himself?!

[Artzineonline]

@8644371 "Wallace suffered for most of his adult life from depression and anxiety, and in the last year of his life, when he tried to go off his medication, he succumbed to "a cancer of the soul," said his sister, Amy Wallace Havens."  --The Guardian, UK

[8644371]

@Artzineonline Suicide is so pretentious.

[Artzineonline]

@8644371 'Pretentious' as defined: "create a false appearance of great importance or worth; the consequence of being pompous and puffed up with vanity," doesn't seem to apply to Wallace, I believe.

[8644371]

@Artzineonline Jesus Christ. You're not going to change my mind. I still think it's pretentious. So let it be.

[EnjoicoolPanda]

@Artzineonline sure it is

[ChollieD]

@8644371 Suicide is despairing. Even an atheist like me can say despair is a sin, but (leaving aside the biochemical nature of depression) it's a particularly seductive emotion for people who are both very smart and empathic by nature. One sees many ways that people could stop screwing up their lives and their loved ones. History becomes a horrendously grim joke. Life doesn't seem to get measurably better no matter the effort that is put forth with one's gifts. All becomes gray, and then...

[8644371]

@ChollieD You sure do know how to make an abstract point.

[ChollieD]

@8644371 Been a little too close to the edge, myself.

Not that I can know DFW's reasons with any certainty, or that my contributions to humanity will ever be as great as his.

[Smoochy44]

@8644371 I realize this is a little belated, but I think few statements could be more pretentious than "Suicide is pretentious."

[TommyTomato93]

@ChollieD You're an atheist?! BOY, you must be SO, SO smart!

[ChollieD]

@TommyTomato93 I guess I did imply that I might think I'm really smart, huh?

Well, sometimes I do. But mostly I recognize that is an error, as Socrates pointed out.

[Manusturbo]

@8644371 what a profoundly stupid thing to say.

[ashaman5]

@Artzineonline

So is being an insipid online troll.

[prrrrecious]

I don't care for TV but it can have its value. Excess in just about anything is bad for you. I think it's all about control and judgment. Unfortunately, I feel we're losing this.

[ZachClooney]

DFW avoided TV. Does anyone know of his views about the internet? How interesting that we are watching DFW in a medium that he would have avoided !

[cfotoole]

@ZachClooney He wasn't very internet-savvy from what I've read.

[imoogi2]

when was this interview done?

[Artzineonline]

@imoogi2 2003

[lixiaofun]

"Most of the problems in my life have to do with my confusing what I want with what I need."

[rawrdiaper]

@lixiaofun effortlessly brilliant... you are missed, David.