The Brits would have known, with all the atrocities they inflicted on the Irish Republicans, that this so called treaty could never be accepted and would split the people. Field Marshall Wilson was the man in charge of all the atrocities in the War of Independence, His killing was an act of war by heroes fighting for True Independence. @ Ranillon, those who thumbed their noses at the sacrifices of those who fought the War of Independence were the traitors, esp. when you fire cannons at them.
@ljfoto55 Then why did a majority of the Dail and the Irish People agree to the treaty? You keep on ignoring that vital, inescapable point. You act like Collins put a gun to everyone's head and forced them to accept, but if anything it was the other way around. Both the leadership and the people had a chance to reject the treaty yet they didn't. That by itself demonstrates that Collins was ultimately right.
@Ranillon One important fact you are forgetting is that Collins was not given the right to sign the treaty in the first place. The proposal only was supposed to be brought back. The Brits threatened to attack Ireland if Collins did not sign the treaty. It should never have been signed and therefore should not have been put for consideration.Those who suffered Brits atrocites in the War of Ind. had a right to protest. Collins took orders from Britain to fire cannons on his own people.
@ljfoto55 But, he WAS given the right to sign the treaty (as was everyone else in the Irish delegation). If you don't believe me look it up. You are confusing the fact that people like de Valera said they SHOULD have been consulted first with the idea that he HAD to be consulted. He didn't -- those working on the treaty had the power to sign whatever deal they made.
So, before making accusations that are just flat out wrong I suggest actually doing some research first!
@Ranillon Yes , legally he did have the right to sign, but was told by de Valera that they had to bring back any proposals to the Ireland . De Valera was the leader of the Irish when he sent Collins to England and Collins & crew should have brought the proposal back before signing. The Brits forced him to sign. I am not saying that that is where he betrayed Ireland. I have done a heap of research adn the facts are there. I can't post the links here. It won't let me. Give me an email ad. to send
@Ranillon How can it be anhy Independence if Collins obeyed orders from Britain to kill his own people and fire cannons at them. I suppose if you took a vote in Germany in WW2 they would vote would be for Hitler, but that didn't mean it was right. They would vote that way out of fear of reprisals from their own leaders. The same with Collins and his collusion with the Brits by telling the people they would be attacked by Britain if they didn't agree. Hardly a democratic vote.
@ljfoto55 He DIDN'T obey any order from the British. He obeyed the order from HIS OWN GOVERNMENT to put down a pack of rebels. The government did so in part because the British were threatening war if the Irish didn't get their act together. That's the only influence the British had over the matter. To his credit Collins and the government tried repeatedly to broker some sort of deal, but the anti-treaty faction refused every time -- and thus brought the war down on themselves.
@Ranillon That not true ! Collins left the demonstration at the 4 courts remain and tried to ignore them. He was ordered by Churchill to remove them or the British army would remove them. Collins obliged and attacked his own people with cannons that he borrowed from the Brits. You forget to look at the history of the War if Independence and the atrocities the Brits did. No treaty pledging allegiance to the crown could ever be accepted by the family victims of these atrocities.
@Ranillon That is so untrue. After my Great Uncle and Reggie Dunn killed the Field Marshall in England responsible for all the atrocities by the Brits in the War if Ind, Churchill ordered Collins to remove the IRA from the 4 Courts in Dublin or he would get the British army to do it. Collins borrowed the artillery from Brit. to fire on his own people. Collins had good intentions in the War of Independence,but when he obeyed the Churchill, he crossed the line and became a traitor.
@Ranillon ..The ones who voted against the fake treaty...about 50% ...were those who fought for Brit. in WW1 and came back seeking Independence and had their houses burnt, the women raped, children killed and men murdered indiscriminitely. They could not surrender to the tyranny of the Brits, which was blatant in this case. Collins sided with the enemy when he took orders from Churchill to kill his own people. The Brits wanted to split Ireland to win. Collins and co. fell for the trap.
@ljfoto55 And where is your evidence for such an absurd claim? If so much of the Irish people were pro-British like that then all of Ireland would still be part of the UK! Your claim here fails the basic logic test. Likewise, you accuse Collins of out-and-out treason, but again provide no facts or even logic to back up such extreme claims. It sounds a lot more like you are just voicing prejudice without caring if it has any basis in reality!
@Ranillon When you hold a gun against the head of someone to sign a treaty, it ceases to be a treaty. This is what the Brits did. They were the real villains in all of this and it is them who caused the split in the Irish, which is what would have been intended. The Brits circulated propaganda claiming that the anti-treaty IRA were anti Protestant, when in fact most of the enemy they killed were Catholics. This was designed by the Brits to divide Ireland by religion too, which it did.
I understand that Collins was pressured into signing the treaty by threats of war from the British Prime Minister, but Collins should never have signed something he was told he had to bring back to Ireland. The Republicans took over and ocupied the 4 courts in Dublin and Collins agreed to take orders from Churchill to attack them with cannons. If you take orders from those you are seeking Independence from to attack your own people, then you are a TRAITOR...end of story ! that cannot be denied.
As I mentioned before, it was a bogus treaty desiged by the Brits to split the Irish to divide and rule them, which it succeeded in doing. Many Irish suffered badly at the hands of the Brits, especially in the South and County Cork where the Black and Tans raped killed and burnt buildings and Cork itself. These Irish just returned from fighting for the Brits in WW1 and when they wanted their Independence, this is the treatment they got. Only those aligned to the Brits accepted the Bogus treaty.
The treaty was no treaty at all. It gave the English a right to Ports to keep their warships. It allowed to consript the Irish for war and the Irish Govt. had to pledge allegiance to the Crown. That is no treaty and Collins did not have the authority to sign the treaty. When he fired canons on his own people who protested against this fake treaty is when he became a traitor. I guess you people who think otherwise also agree with the Syrian govt. using artillery against it's own people.
where is your evidence that mick was a traitor we do have lloyd georges sec's notes we do know the TUC would have called a general striike--do no insult a man like Mike Collins unless you can back it up !!!!
@vivascargill1 I can't post the evidence here as it doesn't let me post a link. Give me an email address and I'll send you all the evidence you need. Collins may have good intentions at first, but he did not have the right to sign the treaty and he definitley did not act on behalf of his own people by firing cannons at them by order of another country. That is a traitorist act. He was probably too inexperienced to see that the intention of the Brits was to deny their Independence.
Collins was a traitor to the Irish. He signed a treaty he had no right to sign. The Birtish set it up to divide and conquer the Irish and it did. A demosntration against the treaty took place with occupation of "The Four Courts" in Dublin. After my great great Uncle executed FM Lord Wilson in England for his atrocities against the Irish and the English rep.to the false Treaty, Churchill orderd Collins to take control of the Four Courts. He used artillery against the Irish. He was a traitor ! EOS
@Chloe24421996 You have it wrong. Both were villians. Collins was used by the Brits to divide Ireland. A well known tactic of Churchill. Collins had no authority to sign the treaty. He should not have done so. He was a patsy for the Brits. When the Brits ordered him to get rid of the protesters to the treaty in the Four Courts in Dublin, he used artillery to do so at the orders of hte Brits. Is that independence ?? It was never meant to be. He was a traitor to the Irish and always will be !
@RichardElden I've seen u comment on a few of these videos.your just an attention seeking loser who wants to cause drama.for disrespecting Michael Collins I hope you rot in hell along with whoever killed him
Mick did not sell out!!! It was a set up by De Valera there IS evidence. Mick was not a politician the notes of Lloyd George's secretary show that If Mick had persisted Lloyd George would have given in Remember this is after WWI also the British Miners who have always had a good connection with Ireland in fact the whole TUC threatened a General strike in the UK if troops were sent to Ireland I can prove that!! Even the Orange lodges might have caved ! Mick was set up!!!
@vivascargill1 It was a set up by the Brits. Their tactic to divide the Irish. Feild Marshal Lord Wilson was the Brits rep. to the Treaty. Wilson was responsible for many of the atrocities against the whole of Ireland in the war of Independence. He used the unemployed returned soldiers to kill and destroy in Ireland. They killed civillians and burnt down houses and villages. Wilson was no less a terrorist than Bin Laden.
The Brits ordered Collins to kill his own Irishmen. He obliged..Civil War
@micklfc2008 No, they murdered Collins because they thought that agreeing to an Irish Free State (as part of the Commonwealth) was a betrayal, too stupid to realize that the free state would inevitably lead to an independant Irish Republic. So they fought and lost a civil war, thousands of needless Irish deaths, and still got the Republic. Not even De Valara ever thought the protestant north would willing join the Republic. Might be different today as the Roman Church is not nearly as powerful.
@jpb252 The treaty did not give Independence.The Brits did many atrocities against the Irish in their war of Independence 1919-1921. Many Irish were killed by terrrorists the Brits used. They killed and burnt down most of Cork. that was my Great Great Uncles hometown. He fought for the Brits in Gallipoli and lost a leg fighting in France. I am proud he assasinated FM Lord Wilson which triggered the civil war after Collins artillery attacked other Irish in Dublin by the order of the Brits.
@micklfc2008 exactly, he was a traitor to the Irish. Anyone who uses artillery against their own people demonstrating, by order of another country can not be remembered any other way than as a Traitor. With the atrocities the Irish had to endure by the Brits in the war of Independence it ws clear that any Treaty with the Brits had to be complete, not allowing Brits occupation and ports in Ireland and a Republic does not include allegiance to another country. He sold out. he deserved to be killed
@ohare1916 Amen...he was a traitor. He used artillery against his own people as ordered by the Brits. Is it a Republic if you can be ordered by another country to attack your own?The Irish suffered enough atrocities by the Brits in the war of Ind. Collins was then Brits rep. after this so called Treaty. My great great Uncle was one who assasinated Feild Marshal Wilson after his terrorist actions agianst the Irish and for the torching of their county Cork. Wilson also signed the treaty
@ljfoto55 How could Collins be a "traitor" if both the majority of the Dail and the Irish People agreed with the treaty? And, it DID lead to a full Republican Ireland. If anyone was a "traitor" it was those who thumbed their noses at the will of the people and forced the civil war.
@ohare1916 I'm not sure individual counties were given the choice. The original offer for Northern Ireland was all of Ulster but they took six instead of nine to ensure Unionist majority.
ya but since their represnetatives decided o vote on their behalf i would think that was lacking in the democratic will of the people, the very foundations on which the republic was born
@ohare1916 But even if they did decide to individual county plebiscites, the result would have most likely stayed the same. It wasn't so much as they denied the nationalists in the North a choice, but they knew that such referendums would waste time and money for an outcome that would have been the same if they just went down the path they did.
why did'nt Dev go to London. He did'nt go because he knew he would'nt get a better deal than Collins. It was Ego with Dev, he was jealous of Collins because Collins had the people behind him, the people of Ireland had had enough of war and poverty and just wanted peace. Then Collins was murdered and what happened when Dev got what he wanted and became president? Nothing, the people of Ireland still lived in poverty for many years to come
Those who are interested in Michael Collins' negotiations and defense of the Treaty should read his own words. One source is Malachy McCourt's Voices of Ireland. He was far from careless or reckless. His explanation and defense of his work should be read by anyone interested in Irish history. He was a brilliant, courageous and thoughtful Irish patriot.
your video and commentary are not good and the name of your video - hero or villain- again shows your ignorance of the facts, you are just posting a you tube video to get your name on you tube but you wont go down in any history book.
collins and dev were and still ARE heros but my grand fathers father always had a feeling that he sent collins because he kinda had an idea the way things were going to pan out! and he stood in the line of duty with dev and collins!
As an Englishman I am not ashamed to say I view Michael Collins as a hero, the greatest Irish man who had the guts to sign the treaty knowing it would cost him his life but it was the best he could have got.
When your country is suppressed its men like Collins you would want leading you, it was'nt about religion, creed or colour but freedom for his country, some of you in the North could learn from that.
Bothe de Valera and Collins were heroes. They both stood up against the british. But when the treaty was signed, dev refused to accept it. Do you all believe that everyone was going to vouch for the treaty?
Micheal Collins is a true hero to the people of Ireland, a dedicated soul to the freedom of his people and his home land. Hopefully we will one day be able to fulfill his dreams, and complete his attempt to achieve a United Ireland. xx
I always thought that deValera was a traitor. He set Collins up knowing he wasn't up to the negotiations. It wouldn't surpise me if he ordered the hit on Collins. When DeValera became president of the Republic he had the gall to outlaw the IRA. Some freaking patriot.
Yet one more terrorist who bit the dust...and done in by one of his own;
when are they ever going to learn - he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Looking at the utterly pathetic state of ROI today he might be rolling in his grave - trusting then that those put in their graves by this guy are rolling the other way. ..
this is Rubbish , the Anti Treatyites did not fall back on voilence when they seized the 4 courts they did not fire a bullet it was Collins with the Backing of the British who fired the first shells of the Civil war . The IRA men never even fired on the Free staters Ernie O`malley stated in his book he left the 4 courts with his gund never fired , You used biased and un historical imagery IE from the film Michael collins , I do a better video on my page ----- Irish civil war shameful facts ----
Quote: " What rubbish you talk, the Wolftones are a brilliant folk band, and much loved!"
That's your opinion - I've got mine...that they're absolute crap, as evidenced by the dreary cliches and hackneyed air of this atrocious song, and much loved by followers of the Continuity IRA...btw you've spelled the name wrong - it's the Wolfe Tones
He was a hero. He knew the treaty was the best he could've done at the time and he gave his life for it. He saw the treaty as a ''stepping stone'' to a united ireland and you cant help but wonder if he was let live for a few more years he might have acheived it. We'll never know for sure. PROUD TO BE IRISH
De Valera being a sneaky bastard knew the treaty would end up that way so the devil sent Collins to negotiate the treaty to all you dumb fucks who think he was a bad man. He also saw the treaty as a stepping stone to a united country.
De Valera being a sneaky bastard knew the treaty would end up that way so the devil sent Collins to negotiate the treaty to all you dumb fucks who think he was a bad man.
@DonegaIRaymie201 you are so full of it...probably a brit....thinking you are entitled to world dominance as the US does nowadays....too bad the germans didn't bomb the shit out of all you pompous asses and got rid of you all
@yoyoholck The answer is, move up north and your family will be united.. South is bankrupt, skint. Britain and Europe is bailing you out. When you move up north, don't forget to go cap in hand.
What a shame that so many of these otherwise fascinating 1916 & War of Independence film clips on YouTube have a soundtrack of moronic rabble-rousing bog standard ditties by the execrable Wolfe Tones...it's such a cliche...those guys should have had their musical instruments decommissioned as part of the Peace Process.
@EVILASSPIRANHA And it is my sincere hope that Michael Collins will be viewed as the exact opposite of George Washington I hope Collins will be viewed as a benedict Arnold of Irish history
@TomBarry192I we should batter these mindless Collins loving bastards like they battered us , There views have changed countless times over the years, and ours are still the same a free 32 Country Irish Republic
@EVILASSPIRANHA Both controversial people, you know. Show me a great man everyone likes, and I will show you a fool. Show me a man many dislike, but everyone repects, and I will show you a great man.
"it is in my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense." The man that said this knew the answer.
Collins gave us an incomplete freedom that would allow best for a complete freedom to be achieved. Had he rejected the Treaty, the Brits would have re-invaded, the IRA would have been crushed and not one iota of freedom would have been gained.
MC is not JUST a hero, but the GREATEST of all Irish heroes
Collins was a true Irishman who fought the brits at their own game and won The problem was he was,nt of the "educated" who wanted only to divide the spoils after victory.Left to fulfill his goal COLLINS would have achieved a UNITED IRELAND but dev and his asslicking backstabbers also knew Collins would have got rid of SCUM -- the "educated" whose kin today still screw our country. Michael O Michael what have they done.Invited the Fucking queen ...WHAT AN INSULT ...still asslicking backstabbers
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
Just like the first so called IRA bombings (post Civil rights movement) are now known to have been carried out by British intelligence.
As were the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings.
Not until Tony Blair, was there any genuine British desire for either a peaceful or political solution in Ireland.
One day the British people will be able to see that their own government laid in place, ensured conditions existed that sacrificed their own soldiers, as well as claimed citizens.
All the logic, all past and present lesson from actions of the British colonial enterprise in Ireland point to - a British inspired, if not led assassination.
Collins was most able, and willing to double deal the British. Collins had plans in operation for the six counties. The British knew they had to have Collins dead.
There is no doubt, they would have murdered Collins.
If you think about it, Dev actually did cause Michael Collins' death. He walked out of the Dail after the Treaty was approved, saying it was a betrayal to the dead Irishmen who had gone before them and he would not take the Oath of Alligence to the British crown (This was basically the start of the civil war) and yet in 1927, he took the Oath. He claimed it was only empty words and that it meant nothing. Why couldn't he have done it 6 years earlier?
Michael, Tom Barry, Ned Breen,Ernie O Malley, The Men and the FORGOTTEN WOMEN who made it all possible, Sleep well Heroes. Our time is approaching. All thanks to you. IRELAND
How in the name of fuck could he be a villian? The man who won us our independance and defeated the british for the first time in Irish history. What kind of a question is that? is George Washington a hero in america? Collins' death cuts me up every time I think about it - HERO
@EireAontaighe Thing was his death was as wrong as the civil war, collins no doubt was a great man an excellent leader, but turning his guns on anti treaty IRA men and the killing of harry Bolan set him apart from many of the men he fought with, bottom line is the British are at the root cause of all of this, and yet here we are still bickering about history, Self determination for all our people is whats required!!
@phoenix1916 You republicans never could see eye to eye anyway, from Collins to Colin Duffy ye's have proved you'll fight with you're shadows, all over some notion about this country, you'll be killing people over it for the next 60 years. Just realise that we arent playing this time, fight it out among yourselves and leave us out of it.
Very interesting, thanks for posting. I just hope that none of the lads are looking down on the shower of wankers that have screwed our country up. Cowen is in Atlanta, where i live now, next week. I will be there with my banner and my "polite questions"........don't get me started!
De Valera just used Collins because he knew for a fact a lot of Republicans would reject the bill and De Valera himself gave speeches at how stupid Collins had been despite the fact it was De Valera the entire time.
Collins was a brilliant man, he was tired of seeing his countryside torn apart by war and he knew Ireland wouldn't last a moment against a full out British invasion. Cheers and RIP Mr. Collins, its a shame such idiots like De Valera had to betray the cause.
It's not a case of being a hero or villain, it's a case of being sold out by that long streak of piss, de Velera, heads I win tails you lose, Collins was fucked as soon as he seat down with that cunt Churchill
R.I.P Michael Collins
WUDJABEABLE 1 week ago
The Brits would have known, with all the atrocities they inflicted on the Irish Republicans, that this so called treaty could never be accepted and would split the people. Field Marshall Wilson was the man in charge of all the atrocities in the War of Independence, His killing was an act of war by heroes fighting for True Independence. @ Ranillon, those who thumbed their noses at the sacrifices of those who fought the War of Independence were the traitors, esp. when you fire cannons at them.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@ljfoto55 Then why did a majority of the Dail and the Irish People agree to the treaty? You keep on ignoring that vital, inescapable point. You act like Collins put a gun to everyone's head and forced them to accept, but if anything it was the other way around. Both the leadership and the people had a chance to reject the treaty yet they didn't. That by itself demonstrates that Collins was ultimately right.
Ranillon 1 week ago
@Ranillon One important fact you are forgetting is that Collins was not given the right to sign the treaty in the first place. The proposal only was supposed to be brought back. The Brits threatened to attack Ireland if Collins did not sign the treaty. It should never have been signed and therefore should not have been put for consideration.Those who suffered Brits atrocites in the War of Ind. had a right to protest. Collins took orders from Britain to fire cannons on his own people.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@ljfoto55 But, he WAS given the right to sign the treaty (as was everyone else in the Irish delegation). If you don't believe me look it up. You are confusing the fact that people like de Valera said they SHOULD have been consulted first with the idea that he HAD to be consulted. He didn't -- those working on the treaty had the power to sign whatever deal they made.
So, before making accusations that are just flat out wrong I suggest actually doing some research first!
Ranillon 1 week ago
@Ranillon Yes , legally he did have the right to sign, but was told by de Valera that they had to bring back any proposals to the Ireland . De Valera was the leader of the Irish when he sent Collins to England and Collins & crew should have brought the proposal back before signing. The Brits forced him to sign. I am not saying that that is where he betrayed Ireland. I have done a heap of research adn the facts are there. I can't post the links here. It won't let me. Give me an email ad. to send
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@Ranillon Go to youtube and put this link in..I can't post the link here as it will not let me..."watch?v=HFlaeAb0pH8"
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@Ranillon How can it be anhy Independence if Collins obeyed orders from Britain to kill his own people and fire cannons at them. I suppose if you took a vote in Germany in WW2 they would vote would be for Hitler, but that didn't mean it was right. They would vote that way out of fear of reprisals from their own leaders. The same with Collins and his collusion with the Brits by telling the people they would be attacked by Britain if they didn't agree. Hardly a democratic vote.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@ljfoto55 He DIDN'T obey any order from the British. He obeyed the order from HIS OWN GOVERNMENT to put down a pack of rebels. The government did so in part because the British were threatening war if the Irish didn't get their act together. That's the only influence the British had over the matter. To his credit Collins and the government tried repeatedly to broker some sort of deal, but the anti-treaty faction refused every time -- and thus brought the war down on themselves.
Ranillon 1 week ago
@Ranillon That not true ! Collins left the demonstration at the 4 courts remain and tried to ignore them. He was ordered by Churchill to remove them or the British army would remove them. Collins obliged and attacked his own people with cannons that he borrowed from the Brits. You forget to look at the history of the War if Independence and the atrocities the Brits did. No treaty pledging allegiance to the crown could ever be accepted by the family victims of these atrocities.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@Ranillon That is so untrue. After my Great Uncle and Reggie Dunn killed the Field Marshall in England responsible for all the atrocities by the Brits in the War if Ind, Churchill ordered Collins to remove the IRA from the 4 Courts in Dublin or he would get the British army to do it. Collins borrowed the artillery from Brit. to fire on his own people. Collins had good intentions in the War of Independence,but when he obeyed the Churchill, he crossed the line and became a traitor.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@Ranillon ..The ones who voted against the fake treaty...about 50% ...were those who fought for Brit. in WW1 and came back seeking Independence and had their houses burnt, the women raped, children killed and men murdered indiscriminitely. They could not surrender to the tyranny of the Brits, which was blatant in this case. Collins sided with the enemy when he took orders from Churchill to kill his own people. The Brits wanted to split Ireland to win. Collins and co. fell for the trap.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
@ljfoto55 And where is your evidence for such an absurd claim? If so much of the Irish people were pro-British like that then all of Ireland would still be part of the UK! Your claim here fails the basic logic test. Likewise, you accuse Collins of out-and-out treason, but again provide no facts or even logic to back up such extreme claims. It sounds a lot more like you are just voicing prejudice without caring if it has any basis in reality!
Ranillon 1 week ago
@Ranillon When you hold a gun against the head of someone to sign a treaty, it ceases to be a treaty. This is what the Brits did. They were the real villains in all of this and it is them who caused the split in the Irish, which is what would have been intended. The Brits circulated propaganda claiming that the anti-treaty IRA were anti Protestant, when in fact most of the enemy they killed were Catholics. This was designed by the Brits to divide Ireland by religion too, which it did.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
I understand that Collins was pressured into signing the treaty by threats of war from the British Prime Minister, but Collins should never have signed something he was told he had to bring back to Ireland. The Republicans took over and ocupied the 4 courts in Dublin and Collins agreed to take orders from Churchill to attack them with cannons. If you take orders from those you are seeking Independence from to attack your own people, then you are a TRAITOR...end of story ! that cannot be denied.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
As I mentioned before, it was a bogus treaty desiged by the Brits to split the Irish to divide and rule them, which it succeeded in doing. Many Irish suffered badly at the hands of the Brits, especially in the South and County Cork where the Black and Tans raped killed and burnt buildings and Cork itself. These Irish just returned from fighting for the Brits in WW1 and when they wanted their Independence, this is the treatment they got. Only those aligned to the Brits accepted the Bogus treaty.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
The treaty was no treaty at all. It gave the English a right to Ports to keep their warships. It allowed to consript the Irish for war and the Irish Govt. had to pledge allegiance to the Crown. That is no treaty and Collins did not have the authority to sign the treaty. When he fired canons on his own people who protested against this fake treaty is when he became a traitor. I guess you people who think otherwise also agree with the Syrian govt. using artillery against it's own people.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
where is your evidence that mick was a traitor we do have lloyd georges sec's notes we do know the TUC would have called a general striike--do no insult a man like Mike Collins unless you can back it up !!!!
vivascargill1 2 weeks ago
@vivascargill1 I can't post the evidence here as it doesn't let me post a link. Give me an email address and I'll send you all the evidence you need. Collins may have good intentions at first, but he did not have the right to sign the treaty and he definitley did not act on behalf of his own people by firing cannons at them by order of another country. That is a traitorist act. He was probably too inexperienced to see that the intention of the Brits was to deny their Independence.
ljfoto55 1 week ago
Collins was a traitor to the Irish. He signed a treaty he had no right to sign. The Birtish set it up to divide and conquer the Irish and it did. A demosntration against the treaty took place with occupation of "The Four Courts" in Dublin. After my great great Uncle executed FM Lord Wilson in England for his atrocities against the Irish and the English rep.to the false Treaty, Churchill orderd Collins to take control of the Four Courts. He used artillery against the Irish. He was a traitor ! EOS
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
Michael Collins was all hero, it was the brits who were, and still are, the villians!!
Chloe24421996 1 month ago
@Chloe24421996 You have it wrong. Both were villians. Collins was used by the Brits to divide Ireland. A well known tactic of Churchill. Collins had no authority to sign the treaty. He should not have done so. He was a patsy for the Brits. When the Brits ordered him to get rid of the protesters to the treaty in the Four Courts in Dublin, he used artillery to do so at the orders of hte Brits. Is that independence ?? It was never meant to be. He was a traitor to the Irish and always will be !
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
@RichardElden I've seen u comment on a few of these videos.your just an attention seeking loser who wants to cause drama.for disrespecting Michael Collins I hope you rot in hell along with whoever killed him
charlie97martin 1 month ago
Mick did not sell out!!! It was a set up by De Valera there IS evidence. Mick was not a politician the notes of Lloyd George's secretary show that If Mick had persisted Lloyd George would have given in Remember this is after WWI also the British Miners who have always had a good connection with Ireland in fact the whole TUC threatened a General strike in the UK if troops were sent to Ireland I can prove that!! Even the Orange lodges might have caved ! Mick was set up!!!
vivascargill1 1 month ago
@vivascargill1 It was a set up by the Brits. Their tactic to divide the Irish. Feild Marshal Lord Wilson was the Brits rep. to the Treaty. Wilson was responsible for many of the atrocities against the whole of Ireland in the war of Independence. He used the unemployed returned soldiers to kill and destroy in Ireland. They killed civillians and burnt down houses and villages. Wilson was no less a terrorist than Bin Laden.
The Brits ordered Collins to kill his own Irishmen. He obliged..Civil War
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
Collins was a genius!
Mistafixa101 2 months ago
Brilliant post, God bless Ireland!
RobertRuhi 3 months ago
Dev knew precisely what he was doing ,sending Mick Collins to England ,to take the shit,while he saved face.
barneyboscoe 4 months ago 2
@barneyboscoe I see you know your history.
ballinameen 2 months ago
de veleras scapegoat
SuperEverton1974 4 months ago
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Michael Collins was a true hero of Ireland, murdered by Fenian bastards too stupid to know when they had won.
jpb252 4 months ago
Michael Collins was a true hero of Ireland, murdered by Fenian bastards too stupid to know when they had won.
jpb252 4 months ago
@jpb252 they had not won , the north still belonged to british , that is why the ira killed him because they felt he was leting the north down.
micklfc2008 1 month ago
@micklfc2008 No, they murdered Collins because they thought that agreeing to an Irish Free State (as part of the Commonwealth) was a betrayal, too stupid to realize that the free state would inevitably lead to an independant Irish Republic. So they fought and lost a civil war, thousands of needless Irish deaths, and still got the Republic. Not even De Valara ever thought the protestant north would willing join the Republic. Might be different today as the Roman Church is not nearly as powerful.
jpb252 1 month ago
@jpb252 The treaty did not give Independence.The Brits did many atrocities against the Irish in their war of Independence 1919-1921. Many Irish were killed by terrrorists the Brits used. They killed and burnt down most of Cork. that was my Great Great Uncles hometown. He fought for the Brits in Gallipoli and lost a leg fighting in France. I am proud he assasinated FM Lord Wilson which triggered the civil war after Collins artillery attacked other Irish in Dublin by the order of the Brits.
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
@micklfc2008 exactly, he was a traitor to the Irish. Anyone who uses artillery against their own people demonstrating, by order of another country can not be remembered any other way than as a Traitor. With the atrocities the Irish had to endure by the Brits in the war of Independence it ws clear that any Treaty with the Brits had to be complete, not allowing Brits occupation and ports in Ireland and a Republic does not include allegiance to another country. He sold out. he deserved to be killed
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
up lietrim and county luton,god bless the IRISH!
asyouweresir 6 months ago
sonny o neil killed michael collins. no big mystery about it in west cork. rat prick deserved it
ohare1916 7 months ago
@ohare1916 Amen...he was a traitor. He used artillery against his own people as ordered by the Brits. Is it a Republic if you can be ordered by another country to attack your own?The Irish suffered enough atrocities by the Brits in the war of Ind. Collins was then Brits rep. after this so called Treaty. My great great Uncle was one who assasinated Feild Marshal Wilson after his terrorist actions agianst the Irish and for the torching of their county Cork. Wilson also signed the treaty
ljfoto55 3 weeks ago
@ljfoto55 How could Collins be a "traitor" if both the majority of the Dail and the Irish People agreed with the treaty? And, it DID lead to a full Republican Ireland. If anyone was a "traitor" it was those who thumbed their noses at the will of the people and forced the civil war.
Ranillon 1 week ago
only 26 of the 32 counties voted on the treaty, something you failed to mention
ohare1916 7 months ago
@ohare1916 I'm not sure individual counties were given the choice. The original offer for Northern Ireland was all of Ulster but they took six instead of nine to ensure Unionist majority.
MacoSensei 6 months ago
@MacoSensei
ya but since their represnetatives decided o vote on their behalf i would think that was lacking in the democratic will of the people, the very foundations on which the republic was born
ohare1916 6 months ago
@ohare1916 But even if they did decide to individual county plebiscites, the result would have most likely stayed the same. It wasn't so much as they denied the nationalists in the North a choice, but they knew that such referendums would waste time and money for an outcome that would have been the same if they just went down the path they did.
MacoSensei 5 months ago
@mwillis1000. I don t think everyone in the north wants to be British. Isn' that the sticking point
Andulsi 7 months ago
why did'nt Dev go to London. He did'nt go because he knew he would'nt get a better deal than Collins. It was Ego with Dev, he was jealous of Collins because Collins had the people behind him, the people of Ireland had had enough of war and poverty and just wanted peace. Then Collins was murdered and what happened when Dev got what he wanted and became president? Nothing, the people of Ireland still lived in poverty for many years to come
TheBeedo1 7 months ago
Those who are interested in Michael Collins' negotiations and defense of the Treaty should read his own words. One source is Malachy McCourt's Voices of Ireland. He was far from careless or reckless. His explanation and defense of his work should be read by anyone interested in Irish history. He was a brilliant, courageous and thoughtful Irish patriot.
moragmorr 7 months ago
your video and commentary are not good and the name of your video - hero or villain- again shows your ignorance of the facts, you are just posting a you tube video to get your name on you tube but you wont go down in any history book.
BestSoapCharacter 7 months ago 3
collins and dev were and still ARE heros but my grand fathers father always had a feeling that he sent collins because he kinda had an idea the way things were going to pan out! and he stood in the line of duty with dev and collins!
MrMrliamo 8 months ago
As an Englishman I am not ashamed to say I view Michael Collins as a hero, the greatest Irish man who had the guts to sign the treaty knowing it would cost him his life but it was the best he could have got.
When your country is suppressed its men like Collins you would want leading you, it was'nt about religion, creed or colour but freedom for his country, some of you in the North could learn from that.
laurelism 8 months ago
Bothe de Valera and Collins were heroes. They both stood up against the british. But when the treaty was signed, dev refused to accept it. Do you all believe that everyone was going to vouch for the treaty?
TheGamersEnjoyment 9 months ago
A HERO FULL STOP
TONYSPURSMAN 9 months ago
Micheal Collins is a true hero to the people of Ireland, a dedicated soul to the freedom of his people and his home land. Hopefully we will one day be able to fulfill his dreams, and complete his attempt to achieve a United Ireland. xx
iwannadancewitu 9 months ago
I always thought that deValera was a traitor. He set Collins up knowing he wasn't up to the negotiations. It wouldn't surpise me if he ordered the hit on Collins. When DeValera became president of the Republic he had the gall to outlaw the IRA. Some freaking patriot.
BillMcBee 10 months ago
More quality images from this source - of immense interest to anyone studying
these extraordinary years. Collins seems to have been a man well ahead of his
time - and even the British admired him. The vote by the people surely gave
legitimacy to his decision (with the others) to sign the treaty and I tend to side
with those who see an underhand political motive in De Valera's action in
sending Collins to London and his subsequent rejection of what had been achieved.
songsmith31a 10 months ago
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Yet one more terrorist who bit the dust...and done in by one of his own;
when are they ever going to learn - he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Looking at the utterly pathetic state of ROI today he might be rolling in his grave - trusting then that those put in their graves by this guy are rolling the other way. ..
vector59 10 months ago
HERO for celts, Hero for Gaels and Hero for BRETONs to !!! an example
calcius29 11 months ago
this is Rubbish , the Anti Treatyites did not fall back on voilence when they seized the 4 courts they did not fire a bullet it was Collins with the Backing of the British who fired the first shells of the Civil war . The IRA men never even fired on the Free staters Ernie O`malley stated in his book he left the 4 courts with his gund never fired , You used biased and un historical imagery IE from the film Michael collins , I do a better video on my page ----- Irish civil war shameful facts ----
1798Greenflag1916 1 year ago
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Quote: " What rubbish you talk, the Wolftones are a brilliant folk band, and much loved!"
That's your opinion - I've got mine...that they're absolute crap, as evidenced by the dreary cliches and hackneyed air of this atrocious song, and much loved by followers of the Continuity IRA...btw you've spelled the name wrong - it's the Wolfe Tones
DoojeenDoonican 1 year ago
Mick is a man amongst men and a hero amongst hero's.God bless you Michael the greatest hero of all.TAL
PURPLEBEATTIE1 1 year ago
He was a hero. He knew the treaty was the best he could've done at the time and he gave his life for it. He saw the treaty as a ''stepping stone'' to a united ireland and you cant help but wonder if he was let live for a few more years he might have acheived it. We'll never know for sure. PROUD TO BE IRISH
teambrucewillis 1 year ago
De Valera being a sneaky bastard knew the treaty would end up that way so the devil sent Collins to negotiate the treaty to all you dumb fucks who think he was a bad man. He also saw the treaty as a stepping stone to a united country.
Doooooom8123 1 year ago 2
De Valera being a sneaky bastard knew the treaty would end up that way so the devil sent Collins to negotiate the treaty to all you dumb fucks who think he was a bad man.
Doooooom8123 1 year ago
@DonegaIRaymie201 you are so full of it...probably a brit....thinking you are entitled to world dominance as the US does nowadays....too bad the germans didn't bomb the shit out of all you pompous asses and got rid of you all
oceanborn75 1 year ago
michael collins was a hero and the greatest man in irish history !!
stuckIMR 1 year ago
thumbs up if you beleive in united ireland, it makes me sick that my family have to live up north with the brits
yoyoholck 1 year ago 36
@yoyoholck
Why don't your family hitch up their caravan and fuck off down South?
They would not be able to claim the benefits is why.
skittification 8 months ago
@yoyoholck The answer is, move up north and your family will be united.. South is bankrupt, skint. Britain and Europe is bailing you out. When you move up north, don't forget to go cap in hand.
MrGrindergaz 7 months ago
@yoyoholck
The people of N.Ireland want to be British, thats why they live under a Union Jack.
mwillis1000 7 months ago 2
What a shame that so many of these otherwise fascinating 1916 & War of Independence film clips on YouTube have a soundtrack of moronic rabble-rousing bog standard ditties by the execrable Wolfe Tones...it's such a cliche...those guys should have had their musical instruments decommissioned as part of the Peace Process.
DoojeenDoonican 1 year ago
@DoojeenDoonican What rubbish you talk, the Wolftones are a brilliant folk band, and much loved !
josparkes1 1 year ago
My hope is that one day Michael Collins will be revered in a similar manner to patriots and liberators like Simon Bolivar or George Washington.
EVILASSPIRANHA 1 year ago 18
@EVILASSPIRANHA I would have though you knew that he is already revered by many immensely patriotic people in the world, not only Ireland !
josparkes1 1 year ago
@EVILASSPIRANHA And it is my sincere hope that Michael Collins will be viewed as the exact opposite of George Washington I hope Collins will be viewed as a benedict Arnold of Irish history
1798Greenflag1916 1 year ago
@1798Greenflag1916 well said, lets go to war with these collins lovers lmao
TomBarry192I 1 year ago
@TomBarry192I we should batter these mindless Collins loving bastards like they battered us , There views have changed countless times over the years, and ours are still the same a free 32 Country Irish Republic
1798Greenflag1916 1 year ago
@EVILASSPIRANHA Both controversial people, you know. Show me a great man everyone likes, and I will show you a fool. Show me a man many dislike, but everyone repects, and I will show you a great man.
ARP7777777 8 months ago
"it is in my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense." The man that said this knew the answer.
Collins gave us an incomplete freedom that would allow best for a complete freedom to be achieved. Had he rejected the Treaty, the Brits would have re-invaded, the IRA would have been crushed and not one iota of freedom would have been gained.
MC is not JUST a hero, but the GREATEST of all Irish heroes
cmcgrath10 1 year ago
Collins was a true Irishman who fought the brits at their own game and won The problem was he was,nt of the "educated" who wanted only to divide the spoils after victory.Left to fulfill his goal COLLINS would have achieved a UNITED IRELAND but dev and his asslicking backstabbers also knew Collins would have got rid of SCUM -- the "educated" whose kin today still screw our country. Michael O Michael what have they done.Invited the Fucking queen ...WHAT AN INSULT ...still asslicking backstabbers
ardkillbeg 1 year ago
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
thegreenlung 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
thegreenlung 1 year ago
Michael Collins; Irish Hero? do a search for that vid theres new info coming out about these days when the corporation the republic of ireland was set up by dev and his pals, collins was executed for turning his back on the sovereign republic of eire and the sovereign seal, check the other vids on RTwethepeople page, theres also vid claiming dev wasnt even at the first dail because they were still in jail at the time.
thegreenlung 1 year ago
Just like the first so called IRA bombings (post Civil rights movement) are now known to have been carried out by British intelligence.
As were the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings.
Not until Tony Blair, was there any genuine British desire for either a peaceful or political solution in Ireland.
One day the British people will be able to see that their own government laid in place, ensured conditions existed that sacrificed their own soldiers, as well as claimed citizens.
irishaware 1 year ago
All the logic, all past and present lesson from actions of the British colonial enterprise in Ireland point to - a British inspired, if not led assassination.
Collins was most able, and willing to double deal the British. Collins had plans in operation for the six counties. The British knew they had to have Collins dead.
There is no doubt, they would have murdered Collins.
irishaware 1 year ago
If you think about it, Dev actually did cause Michael Collins' death. He walked out of the Dail after the Treaty was approved, saying it was a betrayal to the dead Irishmen who had gone before them and he would not take the Oath of Alligence to the British crown (This was basically the start of the civil war) and yet in 1927, he took the Oath. He claimed it was only empty words and that it meant nothing. Why couldn't he have done it 6 years earlier?
R.I.P
My true Irish Hero
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
LilMissGhostGirl 1 year ago
God bless you Michael the bravest of the brave sons of the Gael
PURPLEBEATTIE1 1 year ago
hero
StichJones84 1 year ago
Michael, Tom Barry, Ned Breen,Ernie O Malley, The Men and the FORGOTTEN WOMEN who made it all possible, Sleep well Heroes. Our time is approaching. All thanks to you. IRELAND
cowerofshunts 1 year ago
How in the name of fuck could he be a villian? The man who won us our independance and defeated the british for the first time in Irish history. What kind of a question is that? is George Washington a hero in america? Collins' death cuts me up every time I think about it - HERO
EireAontaighe 1 year ago
@EireAontaighe Thing was his death was as wrong as the civil war, collins no doubt was a great man an excellent leader, but turning his guns on anti treaty IRA men and the killing of harry Bolan set him apart from many of the men he fought with, bottom line is the British are at the root cause of all of this, and yet here we are still bickering about history, Self determination for all our people is whats required!!
phoenix1916 1 year ago
@phoenix1916 amen to that.
EireAontaighe 1 year ago
@phoenix1916 You republicans never could see eye to eye anyway, from Collins to Colin Duffy ye's have proved you'll fight with you're shadows, all over some notion about this country, you'll be killing people over it for the next 60 years. Just realise that we arent playing this time, fight it out among yourselves and leave us out of it.
WARISHELL09 1 year ago
worcesterjonny:
Very interesting, thanks for posting. I just hope that none of the lads are looking down on the shower of wankers that have screwed our country up. Cowen is in Atlanta, where i live now, next week. I will be there with my banner and my "polite questions"........don't get me started!
polmaccaba 1 year ago
De Valera just used Collins because he knew for a fact a lot of Republicans would reject the bill and De Valera himself gave speeches at how stupid Collins had been despite the fact it was De Valera the entire time.
Collins was a brilliant man, he was tired of seeing his countryside torn apart by war and he knew Ireland wouldn't last a moment against a full out British invasion. Cheers and RIP Mr. Collins, its a shame such idiots like De Valera had to betray the cause.
WMUnited 1 year ago
how would he be a villain
Fitzomeara 1 year ago
GREAT, WXPOSE THESE BUGGERS LONG LIVE IRA
MegaBIGSLIK 1 year ago
It's not a case of being a hero or villain, it's a case of being sold out by that long streak of piss, de Velera, heads I win tails you lose, Collins was fucked as soon as he seat down with that cunt Churchill
willgonow 1 year ago
@willgonow well said!!
vivascargill 1 year ago
HERO!!! fucking hero through and through
Aidenrockz09 1 year ago
Very good video about one of the greatest heroes of Ireland and who died unnecessarily early but who did all he could for Ireland !
RIP big man !
josparkes1 1 year ago
@josparkes1 rip big fella
Fitzomeara 1 year ago
Hero or Villain! what kind of question is that !!
duirling 1 year ago
What is the song called and who is it by?
Great video by the way
theyellobellywexford 1 year ago
the start of the civil war was june 1922 when collins turned his guns on the 4 courts,under pressure from churchill
Naoighiallach379 2 years ago
A really excellent and interesting video
rje888 2 years ago