There is not an intervening supreme being; end of story. Religion is crazy; the sun is the source of life on Earth, where the energy that powers life comes from; if you don't understand that, you cannot claim not to be ignorant. And before the big bang, nobody knows; and I will not entertain mindless speculation. As far as is known, there are physical invariants that define the way things operate.
EXCUSE ME, these muslims dont involve themselves in society when they move to my country (UK). i live in a town of around 140,000 and nearby the muslims wanted to have a muslim school for there kids and wanted to shut down an airport so they could build a mosque, fuck off fucking muslims if you cant live in my country like everybody else.
BEWARE! Vali nasr and his father seyyed hossein nasr are both pseudo-intellectuals sympathetic toward the islamic mafia occupying Iran. Both these men are con artists spreading propaganda for the "peaceful' religion of islam. I'm exposing them here and now
Islam incompatble with western democracy my friend, you can reform all you like but the teachings of political islam will never incompatable with secularism, the middle east has been founded on islamic foundations, and that history can be taken away, secularism has failed and will fail to due so, people are coming backing to islam and moving away from this fraud of state and religion
"Islam as a religion is a problem." Well yeah, that's pretty much it. It took us Europeans what, 1500 years to push Christianity to a place from where it can't do us any more harm? Remind me again, why on Earth should we tolerate Islam, which in most respects is much worse than Christianity ever was?
@Winner8501 Your secular nation states have killed, colonized, oppressed and imperialized millions around the world. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
I think I do, thank you very much. Blaming secularism for the mistakes of the past is like blaming breathing for murder - you know, all the murderers do breathe.
If you look at the world of today, the most secular democratic countries are usually the most developed ones, economically and socially. The most religious are usually among the worst hellholes on the planet, with the exception of a few oil-rich countries (which may be wealthy, but they're disgusting nonetheless).
@Winner8501 Secluar nation states are also responsible for the "mistakes" of the present. Development and modernization have nothing to do with how peaceful a nation is. The modernized nations of the world today are by far the most violent and are also all colonial powers. While the poorest nations are the most peaceful and were mostly victims of colonization by wealthier nations. It has nothing to do with religion because most poor nations are secular.
Nonsense. I live in a country which is one of the most secular in the world and also reasonably well off. No suicide bombers are blowing themselves up every other day (compare that with the Muslim countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan), the murder rate is very low and in general the society is very non-violent. Compared to that, Africa and the Middle East are violent hellholes. And nearly all of their conflicts can be traced back to religion (Islam in particular).
@Winner8501 Obviously your country is more peaceful because your country was not illegally invaded and forced into a war. The US started all of the violent cinflicts in all 3 of the countries you mentioned. And yes most of the conflicts that involve violence in Africa and the Middle East have Western roots.
@psyjunta yes and allso many atheist are members. in europe many people are members bechose of tradition. in america you can be like george bush and win election. in europe more secular you are more liekly you win election. japan is allso secular country but they too have tempel fonded from taxes. but in japan too religion really has no power in goverment. so religion in europe is more like tribal dance then really beliving in that shit.
in some ways europe is more secularism and someway not. church gets still money out of goverment but they dont have power in goverment. afther finland became republic 1923 we became one of the first secular countries in europe. sure the two old chuches get money from taxes, ortodox and protestant. but they have no say in goverment. many of us are registerd as mebers but most of us dont belive in god. many americans say that finland is christian country, but that changed in 1923 we are secular.
People should have the right to be superstitious since it's impossible to force somebody to believe something that they don't know is true.We should accept people will be superstitious and eventually will stop as science and democracy grows but until then I can tolerate superstitious people as long as they aren't trying to kill me in the name of there superstitious beliefs.
You misunderstand the american view badly. Americans tend to be opinionated, especially toward religions that aren't their own that advocate really bad things. Note, I said that aren't their own, because obviously there are problems with christianity.
And american secularism isn't that the state controls religion, but that religion and state should go their own way and only show up in cultural symbols.
Hopefully, everyone who watches this video will keep in mind that the role of religion varies a lot between European countries, hence, making it problematic to generalise secularism into European and American secularism.
Secularism is the tool of money to take control of the people.
Secularism catalyze hedonism by disestablishing religion, thus robbing religion of support and allowing for hedonism/materialism. These ideologies support selfish actions, such as the colonization, exploitation of poor, and the capitalization of education (evident with ETS and standardized testing) etc. World history reveals that secular states commits atrocities such as placing autocrats who were anticommunist (and pro-west)...
I just find it pretty hypocritical saying that the exploitation is something new because all religions all over the world have been doing a thousands time worse for thousands of years!
I did not say that exploitation was new, just that bourgeiosie does exploit the poor. The LDCs cannot stop them, while a few revolutionaries (in the Enlightenment) did stood against established churches.
I, myself have a certain amount of intolerance of religion now as I simply cannot be bothered with it and the crackpots I encounter.
But if I had to become religious I would obviously pick Buddhism. I have a lot of time for it and yes they are pretty much the only truly piecful religion
Being an American who was raised in Europe I find some of his comparisons between Europe and America acurate, although I don't think he talks the relationship between the West and the Muslim World fairly.
Modernization goes hand in hand with Westernization. If the Muslim World wants to be more modern they will have to let go of some religious ideologies.
All religion is an evil device to fool and control the people,
I am a proud European because unlike the US which is affected by the Zionist-Christan end timer Israel lobby when they should be reading their constitution.
The EU is run by secular moderate Christans & Atheist.
Religious tensions between the EU and US are understated but together they must fight AlQueada.
is true what he says about europe, i mean i live in the uk and religion has nothing to do with politics in europe, we keep the 2 things seperate as a way of advancing acceptance etc. i mean look what happens when you mix religion and politics asin america and the middle east
Before you talk about "negative impact" of Islam, I suggest you read a little bit about Islamic civilisation. I'm not being an advocate for Muslims neither am I trying to justify the actions of radical extremeists but the history of Islam is over 1400 years old and you are focusing on something that is not even a century old.
Well I think you are doing a great job if you consider how many of them have been killed and are being killed in all the wars around the globe. But I think you are going to need a much bigger war and an even better plan to "topple" a goup of 1.5 billion people and growing.
Yes, totally. That's why I referred to them as "genocidal maniacs". That sounds exactly like the sort of thing I'd be interested in supporting. I mean, it's practically humanitarianism.
Diminishing the negative impact of Islam does not necessarily mean killing Muslims. Don't put words in my mouth.
So America are you 'finally' going to come up with a clear definition of what it is to be Secular nation? And how are you going to incorporate 'American Muslim' opinion and ideas?
I think the problem is things just won't be fair and equal until Muslims have they're theocracy just like we already get our democracy...
Fair and equal, its what we are all meant to be about. So see the Muslims are right you are denying them they're right to the same, even if they want what you think is an opposite!
Anyone else think this is completely wrong? From what I've seen the complete reverse is true! It's Americans who seem to fear that secularism means widespread and state-endorsed atheism, and in Europe it's understood that it just means the government doesn't favour certain religions over the rest. Europeans do KNOW that having an official (although not enforced) religion, like the Church of England, is not secular, which is why there are movements to stop disestablish those national churches.
The wars of this past century have been the deadlist in history, it wasn't religion but rather nationalist and socialist ideaologies that were the root cause.
All I'm saying is that the problem is not with religion, it's with the those who market their hatered in religion's name. Look @ what is happening in India right now, Hindos are killing, beating and raping Christians, destroying
chuches to force people to convert to Hinduism. Do you blame the whole the whole religion for the actions of a small group, of course not.
Well, what do you think the solution is because I really don't see this new "Godless" age of science and technology as the answer. If you think the devolpment of weapons that can littealy wipe countries off the face of the earth is the solution, think again.
Ofcorse Islam is a problem. All religions are evil since deep down they all wish to rule the world. You are spreading a poison while trying to bring people back to the dark ages. Shame on you.
Look there are almost 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. You can't take a very small number of radicals to represent a group of 1.5 billion. It gets a bit difficult to critisize these people when you have to constantly keep defending yourself.
A religion that declares intoleranse towards any minority or group of people surely needs to be controlled or destroyed. I don't see any problem with that.
That type of mentality puts you in the same category as a Muslim extremists, who would want to "control or destroy" anybody who does not share the same ideology as them.
The difference bethween me and a muslim extremist is that I only destroy things that are harmful, instead of destroying things that simply oppose something that a very old storybook says. My ideology is based on reason and freedom, their ideology on slavery and delusion. I know you wish to be as tolerant as possible, but toleranse ought to have it's limits. Read the Quran and the Hadith, will ya.
It would be beneficial if Muslims stopped believing in a seventh century book of very dubious worth which seems to create myriads of violent fanatics.
how is it Americas problem that immigrants from whatever religious background view secularism as an attack on there religion because the populous is phobic to that certain religion? The populous opinion and secularism have nothing to do with each other.
Unless I'm missing something secularism does NOT need further definition, keep religion out of government and government out of religion, its that simple and has worked thus far.
There are 2 strands of secularism, rather like you have (among many others) Protestant and Catholic strands in Christianity, or Shia and Sunni in Islam. The American strand is from Locke where all the religions are welcome to the public square where they can compete without and interference or favouritism from the government. The French (rather than European, since the UK form of secularism is mainly from Locke) advocates the exclusion of religion by government from the public square.
Everyone needs to secular, religious or not. Otherwise you can have diametrically opposed views confronting each other, and it'll end in tears. Whenever you have multifaith communities which are able to peacfully co-exist (it does happen), it is because they are putting their humanitarian values first and finding whichever bits of scripture match up to those beliefs... i suppose that i'm also advocating a secularly determined morality as well as political system.
No, No, No, No, NO! Be smarter. ENGLISH Oxford Dictionary- secular: "not connected with religious or spiritual matters" - It is, as in America, supporting the separation of Church and State. It does not and has never had the connotations which Vali Nasr is ascribing to it. That is a lie propogated by those whose power is based in religion. By allowing them to lie to you and tell you that secular is necesssarily anti relious you allow them to prey on your ignorance. Don't let them.
xXAkridXx : Yes, the law agrees with you. Advertisers, demagogues, filmmakers, authors; anyone who speaks to groups of people have been blamed for the actions of those people. Individuals are blamed while groups are assumed to be mindless automatons that do whatever they are told. This is why mobs act the way they do, anonymity=no responsibility. I have no wish to listen to people like Hitler, but the only power they have is what people give them.
When a group commits a crime, we demand justice. But how do you arrest a country, or a religion? No, the one who stood at the front of the group shouting gets arrested. Then we get our hanging and the people who committed the crime can remain faceless. One day well focus on those people. Making sure that everyone grows up with an understanding of human rights, a sense of personal responsibility, and impulse control. Then, people like Hitler will never rise above the level of internet troll.
Islam is a religio-buraucracy. It has its set of laws and conforming principals. A true practicing muslim, must be ruled under an islamic based government. All three Abrahamic faiths are religious constitutions, but Islam is more so than the other 2 versions. The founding fathers of America saw the delusional qualities of state run religions & the neg influence on the non-believers. This in part is why the constitution prohibits the marriage. Islam ways are a perceived threat to this liberty.
I would love to see a native american church that uses peyote as a part of their religion request funds from Bush's "Faith based Initiatives" and then sue the government for not giving it to them.
If one chooses to have a religion, that should be a private matter. Religious practices, such as prayer, dress or dining habits, should not be prohibited or mandatory. Total separation of religion and government should be the goal here in America. Government should have no jurisdiction in religious matters, and NO clergy of any kind should have sway with politics. At least that is how separation of church and state should be. Also, religion is big business, it should be taxed and not subsidized.
A secular World is the only sane way to ever achieve a sustainable future for humanity. As totalitarian Autocratic dogmas offer no enlightened moral alternatives at-all to this 21st century World, and only survives in power now through strictly regulating key components of life, like: freedom of information, music, food, entertainment, clothing and sex. Once regulated as such, these societies are dominated in cult like mentalities bearing hallmarks of ideologies like seen in North Korea,
where adoration of the dear leader, substitutes archiac autocratic religious dogma like god/Allah and Muhammad, to achieve the same ends. Totalitarian Autocratic dogmatic dictatorships only survive now by suppressing freedom of thought and information like the Internet etc and in a ever-increasing inter-connected world, increasingly hard to justify!
I think we have seen the benefits of secularism very clearly in the last century. I think the number of people who have died in the name of "democracy" and "freedom" are about the same if not more then the number of people who have died in the name of religion.
most flourishing civilized countries globally are all freely-informed secular democracies! With freedom of conscience, thought and expression as basic human rights! "Religion and State kept separate". 20% of global population and a quarter of all countries have Muslim majorities. Yet theres not one of these Islamic countries globally strictly practicing political Islam with its sharia law or not that could be called anything like a freely-informed enlightened civilized society not one!
Religion has been used time and time again to justify killing and suppression of others, wither in Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any other religion.
I think the real problem is in lack of understanding the basic principals of a religion. I don't think there is a single religion that actually calls for killing of innocent people.
That depends on who you think of as innocent. I havee found many examples of the murder of, or calling for the murder of, people I would consider to be innocent in the Bible.
I can't speak for the Bible or the Torah but I'v been reading the Quran, you want to help me find the chapter where it asks for killing of innocent people? Thanks in advance.
Well, religion, in secularism, IS a problem... so yeah, whatever one mean - religion will not gain any more power (and that's what muslims - and christians - want, obviously). I love it here in Sweden... :)
This video made me think.. Who is my favourite muslim thinker. Then i realised the two words were contradictory. Religious thinking is not thinking, its the lack of!
he's pretty wrong about his view of European secularism. There are religious political parties in the Netherlands for example and the state does not at all rule over religion. He's way off at least when talking about the dutch, and as far as I know most other European countries. (france is an exception)
By his definition the england of henry VIII was a European secular nation as well btw but now even the French or English goverment don't appoint clergy etc...
And I will back you up. Like the last Europe-America video PiroNiro posted, it seems like the speaker is mostly talking out of their arse when referring to 'Europe'. And the "appoint its clergy" bit...where does that happen, exactly?
The thing is, while there are exceptions (like those wacky religions that use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals), Americans generally expect that religious practices won't be violating American laws.
Islam's misogyny and tendency toward excessive violence are the kinds of things America simply won't tolerate in the name of freedom of religion.
So in the end it comes down to this: BE Muslim, BELIEVE in Islam...but find a way to do that without violating civil rights and being overly violent.
i agree that many US citizens want muslims to abandon islam. but this has little to do with secularism. rather it is part of the religious right's agenda, and this is a christian agenda.
In America, historically, the state and religion were seperate. This means that the state is by law secular although now it is de facto mildly theocratic. As an atheist, I despise virtually all religious dogma, but the reality is that Christianity is really just annoying while Islam is horrifically barbaric. But as I don't want my head to get chopped off, I'll end this by saying, "Allah is the super best god in the world!"
Sure, I'd like to see muslims stop being muslims, as much as I'd like seeing any religious person stop being religious. But it would be enough if they'd stop some of their practices that are incompatible with western values.
Living in the UK, I have to confront this man's ignorance on the concept of "European" secularism, when there is no such thing, each nation has its own laws. France is strictly secular while our Queen is the head of the Church of England, but it promotes religious tolerance and dialogue. In Germany one has to pay a tithe to a church of one's choice (tho it has to be recognised by the state). Spain and Italy are very Catholic and so religion does affect some laws (Sunday-work etc)...
He is mainly talking about Laicism, the French model. It comes from the fact that the century long fight for democratisation in Europe was a fight against the reactionary Catholic church as well as kings and kaisers that ruled with divine authority propaganda.
His confusion is: "secularism" everywhere, means (besides what he talks about) also the protection of atheism, antitheism and heresies and different lifestyles, this is what the Islamists don't want and many Muslims still don't accept.
well, secularism in Europe is definitely does not = France...
so the guy is way off...
France is posibly the most secular at a state level due to the fact that they removed the church and king in a revolution. They know well enough what happens when you let religious power do what they want.
"truestefq says: ""secularism ... many Muslims still don't accept"
totally agree, and it is A hughe problem. Can't have integration of Muslims if they can't let this be. In a Secular society Atheism is a right, and blasphemy does not exist
In islam atheists are not tolerated, leaving the religion is penalized by death, the Law Sharia is against the human rights convention
Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with secular democracy, and that is why integration is at best really hard, at worst impossible.
I think he dances around the issue that came up with Ayaan Ali and Ibn Warraq vs. "Muslim Reformers", which is a false dichotomy:
The real issue is simply not a proper definition of "secularism", but rather the insistence of human rights for everybody, as mentioned, regardless of creed, gender, lifestyle. But this would mean less power for the clerics or fascist/theocratic regimes. So it's not mainly a decision by the US but rather of Muslims: what kind of society do they want to live in?
that is a question that Muslims can't answer in a way that would satisfy a secular free society
because if a Muslims does "reform" and becomes 'civilized' with the human rights and freedom from religion that we are used to in a secular society. Then what? There will always TRUE Muslims that will pop up and rightly claim that they are following the Qu'ran and that the other ones are 'westernised' then blow up some shit.
my advice, don't bother with reform, just give up medieval superstitions.
Total agreement with your stance. Just give up the ancient sheep herder mentality and fairytales and join the 21st century. It seems so straightforward but I guess it helps to be less indoctrinated from birth to be able to see the bull for what it is.
He probably thinks of the french idea of secularism because they banned the Hijab and other religious crap from the schools. Hes also probably aware of how other countries in Europe think about secularism, but chooses to give a more ignorant view for political reasons.
Indeed, porchmoneky: he builds up a "anti-muslim" straw men by misconstruing "secularism" (separation of temple and state) by mixing it with something else: "secularisation" (decline of religiosity in modern societies) - he should have looked at the wikipedia "Secularity"-disambiguation page before saying something like that;)
In this way he can avoid questioning the failure of islamic societies/dogma to adapt to modernity and blame the US for theological grievances in the "islamic world".
Yes I think he was right on Secularisation, If he had known my personal opinion on it. I am waiting for the religious to either nail themselves to a cross and await a slow death. ...Or equally they can just go home, pray if they want to, and await the same fate that way.
No only joking! Ignore them and they'll go away by themselves.
Uh..I dont live in Europe and I know this guys definition of "european" secularism is completely wrong. European secularism does not exist, i.e. because the separate countries have their own views. French secularism is just our secularism but more extreme. The UK is not secular, it is religiously plural, and etc. Where do these moronic videos come from?
Why cant secularist and leftist and these other groups approach the secularist and progressives in the middle east, and not just assume because they are middle eastern, they love islamic fundamentalism?
how is it Americas problem that immigrants from whatever religious background view secularism as an attack on there religion because the populous is phobic to that certain religion? The populous opinion and secularism have nothing to do with each other.
Unless I'm missing something secularism does NOT need further definition, keep religion out of government and government out of religion, its that simple and has worked thus far.
Anti-religion is the way to go. I have a dream that one day people will no longer feel the need to construct shaky moral and ethical systems on the grounds of what they think their imaginary friend wants.
Turkey is not a secular country. It discriminates everybody who is not a Muslim of the Sunni Hanafi school. Turkish Christians and Jews are declared "aliens", Alevi and Atheists are publicly denied and attacked by fascist or islamist rabble when they voice their opinions, while the police does nothing.
Kemalism unfortunately became something like a cult itself, instead of attempting a real secular democracy today Kemalists are fascists, thus giving the Islamists the chance to take over.
We're doing better in integrating Muslims into our society than the Europeans, thank you very much. There's now Shariah courts in Britain. Our Mosques get raided by the FBI occasionally. We're doing fine and aware of the danger that Britain seems oblivious to.
Muslims have time and time again brought this on themselves by their anti-democratic, anti-Kafir, terroristic demonstations and actions both in the streets and in their mosques. While they are living in western nations. Many nations of the west want to tolerate islam but do not want their governments toppled by it.
Secularism in Europe means pretty much the same as in America, there should be a separation of church and state.
Nobody have EVER talked about the state ruling over the church. At least not in Sweden.
However, the state could get involved if the Church or the Mosque doesn't follow the rules of law but they would never try to run the Church or the Mosque.
Salladsdressing: I respectfully disagree with you. There are tithes to local churches that must be paid by citizens living in that community whether one goes to the church or not. Switzerland comes to mind, and Germany, as only two examples. This, in my mind, is not a separation of church and state. Some countries may be more able to separate religion from government, but there are still those countries in Europe that do not (hurray Sweden!).
I absolutely agree with you, neighbour. It's the same here on the other side of the Gulf. But church and state aren't completely separate here, the biggest church does have a special status, but the state has little or no control over it.
Every time somebody talks about Europe as if it was a single homogenous country, it's really obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
The majority of people in the US are Christians, and Christianity has undergone a reformation of extrordinary proportions where there are so many denominations now, it's almost impossible to count. Since Islam is a relatively new religion and has not undergone reformation in the same way, I think most Americans see (and it's a stupid view) all Muslims agreeing with the radical practitioners of Islam. What's the answer to change this view? Education primarily, and possibly community outreach?
Islam is not new by any stretch of the imagination, in fact Islam is proly as old if not older then Christianity. Atheist here BTW just pointing out that.
warwizard87: I respectfully disagree with you. Islam centers around one man, Muhammad, who was only born about 570 of the common era. The Roman empire had already ceased to exist about 5 years earlier with the last hurrah of Justinian I. Islam wasn't practised widely as a religion until Muhammad's messages from Allah were written into what we now know as the Qur'an in around 632 of the common era. Christianity had been around hundreds of years prior to this. All of this history is easy to find.
Telling how he doesn't try to contradict the claims that Islam is anti-democratic, misogynistic, etc.
He says that Americans want Muslims to stop believing in Islam, and to some extent he is correct. As an atheist myself, the Christians I can get along with are the ones who don't take their faith too seriously. The ones who really, deeply believe that the Bible is the literal word of God are the Jerry Falwells and the Kent Hovinds. Absolutely destructive influences on society.
So yes, some of us do want Muslims to stop taking their religion so damn seriously. A belief that the Qu'ran (or Bible, or Torah) is the absolute and literal word of God is fundamentally *incompatible* with a civilized worldview.
Being from europe, i don't see this ruling over religion very much. Our laws even directly protect certain religious practices.
That being said. religion is a major pain in the ass. The only reason we have to keep up with it is because children our told into it, they are well marketed and have strong voices.
All the rest is just made belief and fairy tales.
To bad that with all the religious education it will always find its way in to the law.
I disagree with this guy. When I (from europe/england) say secularism, I want religion destroyed, bitches. That shit has got to go. It's been too long.
People should stop being muslim & christian, jewish, scientologists, etc. Everyone should be first & foremost a caring human & not justify being arseholes because of their religious beliefs.
I believe freedom of religion and freedom of speech ends where another person's rights begin.
I don't know about this government having control over churches. It seems over the top.
I agree though, that many americans are being hypocritical about freedom of religion. "we're free to believe what we believe, but you're not." one problem is that actual secularism and freedom of religion on their own are already against some Americans' beliefs. How much do atheists already need to go in hiding?
What he classifies as "american secularism", is what secularism actually is, even though most americans don't accept it (because they want the christian faith favoured), and "european secularism"... where the f#ck did he get that from?
I live in Europe! That's not european secularism! That is in fact something that is generally seen as bad, in Europe.
« That sounds right to me. Don't you a Church of England? »
Excuse me? And no, it doesn't sound right. Secular merely means "worldly." Secularism is not meant as a controlling force for religion; it merely means that worldly tasks, like the governing of a country for the good of its citizens, should be performed without religious influences. The secularism that that character proclaimed to be the "American definition" is simply *the* definition for secularism.
There is not an intervening supreme being; end of story. Religion is crazy; the sun is the source of life on Earth, where the energy that powers life comes from; if you don't understand that, you cannot claim not to be ignorant. And before the big bang, nobody knows; and I will not entertain mindless speculation. As far as is known, there are physical invariants that define the way things operate.
osheaad 10 months ago
America understands that a religious people are a moral people. Europe looks to making the state the ultimate giver if the law and not God.
mossandthesea 10 months ago
EXCUSE ME, these muslims dont involve themselves in society when they move to my country (UK). i live in a town of around 140,000 and nearby the muslims wanted to have a muslim school for there kids and wanted to shut down an airport so they could build a mosque, fuck off fucking muslims if you cant live in my country like everybody else.
CallumJ230 11 months ago
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BEWARE! Vali nasr and his father seyyed hossein nasr are both pseudo-intellectuals sympathetic toward the islamic mafia occupying Iran. Both these men are con artists spreading propaganda for the "peaceful' religion of islam. I'm exposing them here and now
Seekthetruth3000 1 year ago
Islam incompatble with western democracy my friend, you can reform all you like but the teachings of political islam will never incompatable with secularism, the middle east has been founded on islamic foundations, and that history can be taken away, secularism has failed and will fail to due so, people are coming backing to islam and moving away from this fraud of state and religion
TheTruth8018 1 year ago
"Islam as a religion is a problem." Well yeah, that's pretty much it. It took us Europeans what, 1500 years to push Christianity to a place from where it can't do us any more harm? Remind me again, why on Earth should we tolerate Islam, which in most respects is much worse than Christianity ever was?
Winner8501 1 year ago
@Winner8501 Your secular nation states have killed, colonized, oppressed and imperialized millions around the world. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
jihadifanclub 1 year ago
@jihadifanclub
I think I do, thank you very much. Blaming secularism for the mistakes of the past is like blaming breathing for murder - you know, all the murderers do breathe.
If you look at the world of today, the most secular democratic countries are usually the most developed ones, economically and socially. The most religious are usually among the worst hellholes on the planet, with the exception of a few oil-rich countries (which may be wealthy, but they're disgusting nonetheless).
Winner8501 1 year ago
@Winner8501 Secluar nation states are also responsible for the "mistakes" of the present. Development and modernization have nothing to do with how peaceful a nation is. The modernized nations of the world today are by far the most violent and are also all colonial powers. While the poorest nations are the most peaceful and were mostly victims of colonization by wealthier nations. It has nothing to do with religion because most poor nations are secular.
jihadifanclub 1 year ago
@jihadifanclub
Nonsense. I live in a country which is one of the most secular in the world and also reasonably well off. No suicide bombers are blowing themselves up every other day (compare that with the Muslim countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan), the murder rate is very low and in general the society is very non-violent. Compared to that, Africa and the Middle East are violent hellholes. And nearly all of their conflicts can be traced back to religion (Islam in particular).
Winner8501 1 year ago
@Winner8501 Obviously your country is more peaceful because your country was not illegally invaded and forced into a war. The US started all of the violent cinflicts in all 3 of the countries you mentioned. And yes most of the conflicts that involve violence in Africa and the Middle East have Western roots.
jihadifanclub 1 year ago
kepp your fairy stories europe does not want them. that goes for all faith, we believe in facts not faith. proud european atheist here.
geordieracer222 1 year ago
@psyjunta yes and allso many atheist are members. in europe many people are members bechose of tradition. in america you can be like george bush and win election. in europe more secular you are more liekly you win election. japan is allso secular country but they too have tempel fonded from taxes. but in japan too religion really has no power in goverment. so religion in europe is more like tribal dance then really beliving in that shit.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
in some ways europe is more secularism and someway not. church gets still money out of goverment but they dont have power in goverment. afther finland became republic 1923 we became one of the first secular countries in europe. sure the two old chuches get money from taxes, ortodox and protestant. but they have no say in goverment. many of us are registerd as mebers but most of us dont belive in god. many americans say that finland is christian country, but that changed in 1923 we are secular.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
People should have the right to be superstitious since it's impossible to force somebody to believe something that they don't know is true.We should accept people will be superstitious and eventually will stop as science and democracy grows but until then I can tolerate superstitious people as long as they aren't trying to kill me in the name of there superstitious beliefs.
jjason23296 1 year ago
You misunderstand the american view badly. Americans tend to be opinionated, especially toward religions that aren't their own that advocate really bad things. Note, I said that aren't their own, because obviously there are problems with christianity.
And american secularism isn't that the state controls religion, but that religion and state should go their own way and only show up in cultural symbols.
abdishtar 1 year ago
@psyjunta You're forced to fund them weather or not you support their ideas at gun point. The government is a gun.
TheMobocracy 1 year ago
Hopefully, everyone who watches this video will keep in mind that the role of religion varies a lot between European countries, hence, making it problematic to generalise secularism into European and American secularism.
decastich 2 years ago
Government run churches? Fuck that. Europe is statist.
TheMobocracy 2 years ago
Yeah, Americans are assholes, I guess you'll just have to stay home.
l337pwnage 2 years ago
I'm not European, neither American but i support Atheism !!!!
Borat911 2 years ago 2
cool
Hinduismglance 2 years ago
Near future:
-Due to poor demographics, Europe needs to attract foreign young population.
-The European quickly become overruned by foreign immigration, and soon become a minority in their own countries. Possible islamization of Europe.
-Sorry-ass Europeans
despotism444 2 years ago
fuck off you dumb FUCK!!!
Dhaune 2 years ago
Secularism is the tool of money to take control of the people.
Secularism catalyze hedonism by disestablishing religion, thus robbing religion of support and allowing for hedonism/materialism. These ideologies support selfish actions, such as the colonization, exploitation of poor, and the capitalization of education (evident with ETS and standardized testing) etc. World history reveals that secular states commits atrocities such as placing autocrats who were anticommunist (and pro-west)...
iseeallforme 2 years ago
HAHAHAHA
religion has been taking money and controlling the poor masses for millennia!
billfred51 2 years ago 3
and money worshipping bourgeiosie exploited the poor by cutting wages for their own profit.
iseeallforme 2 years ago
so.....
what's that gotta do with anything I just said?
I just find it pretty hypocritical saying that the exploitation is something new because all religions all over the world have been doing a thousands time worse for thousands of years!
billfred51 2 years ago
Look at the intolerance towards religion!
I did not say that exploitation was new, just that bourgeiosie does exploit the poor. The LDCs cannot stop them, while a few revolutionaries (in the Enlightenment) did stood against established churches.
iseeallforme 2 years ago
Also, I did not see persecution specifically designed to promote some religion, for example, buddhism.
iseeallforme 2 years ago
I, myself have a certain amount of intolerance of religion now as I simply cannot be bothered with it and the crackpots I encounter.
But if I had to become religious I would obviously pick Buddhism. I have a lot of time for it and yes they are pretty much the only truly piecful religion
billfred51 2 years ago
Being an American who was raised in Europe I find some of his comparisons between Europe and America acurate, although I don't think he talks the relationship between the West and the Muslim World fairly.
Modernization goes hand in hand with Westernization. If the Muslim World wants to be more modern they will have to let go of some religious ideologies.
RFXCGZZ 3 years ago
All religion is an evil device to fool and control the people,
I am a proud European because unlike the US which is affected by the Zionist-Christan end timer Israel lobby when they should be reading their constitution.
The EU is run by secular moderate Christans & Atheist.
Religious tensions between the EU and US are understated but together they must fight AlQueada.
Jeffersonian US and EU forever
infokemp 3 years ago 2
is true what he says about europe, i mean i live in the uk and religion has nothing to do with politics in europe, we keep the 2 things seperate as a way of advancing acceptance etc. i mean look what happens when you mix religion and politics asin america and the middle east
trico0712 3 years ago
Sorry to tell you that europeans who think like you are either Nazis or fools.
Any rational person will tell you that if America had not got involved in ww2, Europeans would have been Nazi fanatics like they have been in past.
Hail America- the force for good.
I know that rattles the low esteemed europeans who can't get over the fact that they are no longer the colonial masters the so called "3rd World".
Fuck European colonial mentality
exmuslim007 2 years ago
yeah that clearly means im a nazi:S...you just made my day:D
trico0712 2 years ago 2
You are probably right: Europe could never liberate itself from Nazi domination without American help.
Let us take the example of the couragous French: half joined the Reich and half tried so bad to be as good as Nazis (cf.Petain and Vichy).
So it is about time Europe stopped its self-righteous Colonial perceptions of WW2.
despotism444 2 years ago
Who says that it would've been a bad thing if the Nazi's ruled in Europe and the Americans did'nt come to help ?
n3x4s6 2 years ago
Oh yeah, sure. They were doing a great job.
despotism444 2 years ago
Look, i'm not a nazi friend. BUt just imagine they had a grip all over Europe... It would've been united since 1945 then.
True a bad thing for the jews. But what are jews doing these days anyway ?
n3x4s6 2 years ago
yeah right people tend to forget that even before the US joined the war the Soviet union had already turned the tides of the war.
i personally think that it would have been better the Crush the Soviet union the Nazi Germany,
and now starts the flame war.
(sure call me Nazi)
krnr 2 years ago
Christ....
I like the USA definition of Secularism much much much better.
Surhotchaperchlorome 3 years ago
What he says about Europe seems to me to be not true. At any rate, it is not true in the countries I know.
nispen 3 years ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
Sorry to tell you that europeans who think like you are either Nazis or fools.
Any rational person will tell you that if America had not got involved in ww2, Europeans would have been Nazi fanatics like they have been in past.
Hail America- the force for good.
I know that rattles the low esteemed europeans who can't get over the fact that they are no longer the colonial masters the so called "3rd World".
Fuck European colonial mentality
exmuslim007 2 years ago
proud european atheist here!
romeno182 3 years ago 33
proud American atheist here!
thatgodlessguy 3 years ago 9
Proud Christian atheist here!
Greywyn7 3 years ago
Proud atheist humanbeing here.
BlizBob 2 years ago
stupid retards here!! :)
Dhaune 2 years ago
I like Radical muslims. keeps the world more interesting.
weregarg 3 years ago
i wait for the day when religion just stops .
illbeatsblog 3 years ago 29
If you want to get rid of Muslim radicals, not dropping bombs on their heads is a good place to start.
twinturbom20 3 years ago 4
Before you talk about "negative impact" of Islam, I suggest you read a little bit about Islamic civilisation. I'm not being an advocate for Muslims neither am I trying to justify the actions of radical extremeists but the history of Islam is over 1400 years old and you are focusing on something that is not even a century old.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
The whole rise of the bible thumpers is a pretty clear indication of how badly American policy has failed in this regard.
That said, it would be a big fat wonderful gift to the people's of the earth if we were to topple or damage Islam.
DownOnMyLuck 3 years ago
Well I think you are doing a great job if you consider how many of them have been killed and are being killed in all the wars around the globe. But I think you are going to need a much bigger war and an even better plan to "topple" a goup of 1.5 billion people and growing.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
Yeah, I know, not going to happen.
You'd need some straight up genocidal maniac to take the reigns in order to accomplish that.
DownOnMyLuck 3 years ago
Big fan of Hitler and Nazis, are we?
twinturbom20 3 years ago
Yes, totally. That's why I referred to them as "genocidal maniacs". That sounds exactly like the sort of thing I'd be interested in supporting. I mean, it's practically humanitarianism.
Diminishing the negative impact of Islam does not necessarily mean killing Muslims. Don't put words in my mouth.
DownOnMyLuck 3 years ago 2
So America are you 'finally' going to come up with a clear definition of what it is to be Secular nation? And how are you going to incorporate 'American Muslim' opinion and ideas?
...Let the public debate begin!
PorchMoneky 3 years ago
I think the problem is things just won't be fair and equal until Muslims have they're theocracy just like we already get our democracy...
Fair and equal, its what we are all meant to be about. So see the Muslims are right you are denying them they're right to the same, even if they want what you think is an opposite!
PorchMoneky 3 years ago
I've never heard so many misconceptions of European secularism in such a short time. Is this man ignorant, stupid or lying?
EpifanesEuergetes 3 years ago 3
Yes it sounded as if european secularism was a idea conceived by religious fascists...sorry anti religious fascists.
Poor Muslims.
PorchMoneky 3 years ago
Anyone else think this is completely wrong? From what I've seen the complete reverse is true! It's Americans who seem to fear that secularism means widespread and state-endorsed atheism, and in Europe it's understood that it just means the government doesn't favour certain religions over the rest. Europeans do KNOW that having an official (although not enforced) religion, like the Church of England, is not secular, which is why there are movements to stop disestablish those national churches.
optifog 3 years ago
The wars of this past century have been the deadlist in history, it wasn't religion but rather nationalist and socialist ideaologies that were the root cause.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
All I'm saying is that the problem is not with religion, it's with the those who market their hatered in religion's name. Look @ what is happening in India right now, Hindos are killing, beating and raping Christians, destroying
chuches to force people to convert to Hinduism. Do you blame the whole the whole religion for the actions of a small group, of course not.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
Well, what do you think the solution is because I really don't see this new "Godless" age of science and technology as the answer. If you think the devolpment of weapons that can littealy wipe countries off the face of the earth is the solution, think again.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
Whether the new age be one of god or not those weapons are still gonna be developed.
shadetail 3 years ago
Ofcorse Islam is a problem. All religions are evil since deep down they all wish to rule the world. You are spreading a poison while trying to bring people back to the dark ages. Shame on you.
Davey850 3 years ago 4
Look there are almost 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. You can't take a very small number of radicals to represent a group of 1.5 billion. It gets a bit difficult to critisize these people when you have to constantly keep defending yourself.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
Small number?
What basis do you have, to say that the harmful muslims, are a minority?
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago
if islam was a peaceful religion, muslims would criticize violence committed in the name of islam.
not just when it is convenient to do so.
if muslims didn't deserve to be subjugated, they would be
opposed to the killing of innocent people and children, no matter who the perpetrator.
if muslims didn't deserve to be criticized, they would be against ALL incitement of violence.
sum1unxpected 3 years ago
Yeah. Whatever. Down with islam.
Domzdream 3 years ago
A religion that declares intoleranse towards any minority or group of people surely needs to be controlled or destroyed. I don't see any problem with that.
And islam is just that kind of a religion.
Wulfshade 3 years ago 6
That type of mentality puts you in the same category as a Muslim extremists, who would want to "control or destroy" anybody who does not share the same ideology as them.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
no it does not.
being intolerant of the intolerant bigots does not put you at the same level as them.
hate of Islamofascism does not make you a fascist.
seriously, tolerating the intolerant is just retarded
some people still think like this;
"beating women and death for apostasy is their way, and their faith
don't want to look like I'm imposing human rights on them, that would be imply that I think of myself as more civilized, how arrogant"
news flash, we are more civilized, grow a pair
tieInterceptor 3 years ago 4
The difference bethween me and a muslim extremist is that I only destroy things that are harmful, instead of destroying things that simply oppose something that a very old storybook says. My ideology is based on reason and freedom, their ideology on slavery and delusion. I know you wish to be as tolerant as possible, but toleranse ought to have it's limits. Read the Quran and the Hadith, will ya.
Wulfshade 3 years ago
It would be beneficial if Muslims stopped believing in a seventh century book of very dubious worth which seems to create myriads of violent fanatics.
Grangy27 3 years ago 2
Yes, Muslims indeed should stop being Muslims. If America done something wrong, it is not strongly enough exposing the flaws of Islam to Muslims.
Akatam0t0ma 3 years ago 3
...and the flaws of christianity, to christians (though christians have been "pacified", to a greater extent, and are therefor not as dangerous)
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago
how is it Americas problem that immigrants from whatever religious background view secularism as an attack on there religion because the populous is phobic to that certain religion? The populous opinion and secularism have nothing to do with each other.
Unless I'm missing something secularism does NOT need further definition, keep religion out of government and government out of religion, its that simple and has worked thus far.
sctshman 3 years ago 2
There are 2 strands of secularism, rather like you have (among many others) Protestant and Catholic strands in Christianity, or Shia and Sunni in Islam. The American strand is from Locke where all the religions are welcome to the public square where they can compete without and interference or favouritism from the government. The French (rather than European, since the UK form of secularism is mainly from Locke) advocates the exclusion of religion by government from the public square.
JohnRichardCatt 3 years ago
Everyone needs to secular, religious or not. Otherwise you can have diametrically opposed views confronting each other, and it'll end in tears. Whenever you have multifaith communities which are able to peacfully co-exist (it does happen), it is because they are putting their humanitarian values first and finding whichever bits of scripture match up to those beliefs... i suppose that i'm also advocating a secularly determined morality as well as political system.
ScepticalPenguin 3 years ago
No, No, No, No, NO! Be smarter. ENGLISH Oxford Dictionary- secular: "not connected with religious or spiritual matters" - It is, as in America, supporting the separation of Church and State. It does not and has never had the connotations which Vali Nasr is ascribing to it. That is a lie propogated by those whose power is based in religion. By allowing them to lie to you and tell you that secular is necesssarily anti relious you allow them to prey on your ignorance. Don't let them.
ScepticalPenguin 3 years ago 3
xXAkridXx : Yes, the law agrees with you. Advertisers, demagogues, filmmakers, authors; anyone who speaks to groups of people have been blamed for the actions of those people. Individuals are blamed while groups are assumed to be mindless automatons that do whatever they are told. This is why mobs act the way they do, anonymity=no responsibility. I have no wish to listen to people like Hitler, but the only power they have is what people give them.
thunderpants10 3 years ago
When a group commits a crime, we demand justice. But how do you arrest a country, or a religion? No, the one who stood at the front of the group shouting gets arrested. Then we get our hanging and the people who committed the crime can remain faceless. One day well focus on those people. Making sure that everyone grows up with an understanding of human rights, a sense of personal responsibility, and impulse control. Then, people like Hitler will never rise above the level of internet troll.
thunderpants10 3 years ago
Islam is a religio-buraucracy. It has its set of laws and conforming principals. A true practicing muslim, must be ruled under an islamic based government. All three Abrahamic faiths are religious constitutions, but Islam is more so than the other 2 versions. The founding fathers of America saw the delusional qualities of state run religions & the neg influence on the non-believers. This in part is why the constitution prohibits the marriage. Islam ways are a perceived threat to this liberty.
CHAS1422 3 years ago
I would love to see a native american church that uses peyote as a part of their religion request funds from Bush's "Faith based Initiatives" and then sue the government for not giving it to them.
cidvisions 3 years ago
If one chooses to have a religion, that should be a private matter. Religious practices, such as prayer, dress or dining habits, should not be prohibited or mandatory. Total separation of religion and government should be the goal here in America. Government should have no jurisdiction in religious matters, and NO clergy of any kind should have sway with politics. At least that is how separation of church and state should be. Also, religion is big business, it should be taxed and not subsidized.
XCarnwennanX 3 years ago 4
A secular World is the only sane way to ever achieve a sustainable future for humanity. As totalitarian Autocratic dogmas offer no enlightened moral alternatives at-all to this 21st century World, and only survives in power now through strictly regulating key components of life, like: freedom of information, music, food, entertainment, clothing and sex. Once regulated as such, these societies are dominated in cult like mentalities bearing hallmarks of ideologies like seen in North Korea,
danielnz1 3 years ago 3
where adoration of the dear leader, substitutes archiac autocratic religious dogma like god/Allah and Muhammad, to achieve the same ends. Totalitarian Autocratic dogmatic dictatorships only survive now by suppressing freedom of thought and information like the Internet etc and in a ever-increasing inter-connected world, increasingly hard to justify!
danielnz1 3 years ago 2
I think we have seen the benefits of secularism very clearly in the last century. I think the number of people who have died in the name of "democracy" and "freedom" are about the same if not more then the number of people who have died in the name of religion.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
most flourishing civilized countries globally are all freely-informed secular democracies! With freedom of conscience, thought and expression as basic human rights! "Religion and State kept separate". 20% of global population and a quarter of all countries have Muslim majorities. Yet theres not one of these Islamic countries globally strictly practicing political Islam with its sharia law or not that could be called anything like a freely-informed enlightened civilized society not one!
danielnz1 3 years ago
Religion has been used time and time again to justify killing and suppression of others, wither in Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any other religion.
I think the real problem is in lack of understanding the basic principals of a religion. I don't think there is a single religion that actually calls for killing of innocent people.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
That depends on who you think of as innocent. I havee found many examples of the murder of, or calling for the murder of, people I would consider to be innocent in the Bible.
federalD 3 years ago
"I don't think there is a single religion that actually calls for killing of innocent people."
You have obviously not read the bible/koran/torah/whatever.
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago 2
I can't speak for the Bible or the Torah but I'v been reading the Quran, you want to help me find the chapter where it asks for killing of innocent people? Thanks in advance.
twinturbom20 3 years ago
You can look for yourself, here:
skepticsannotatedbible . com/ quran/index . htm
(just remove the spaces)
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago
LOL.
FOR REAL?
The old testament is JAM PACKED full of the murder of innocents. PACKED TO THE FUCKING BRIM.
The New Testament is a little lighter, but the Quran brings abrahamic religions back to their roots with the whole killing infidels thing.
DownOnMyLuck 3 years ago
Muslims should not believe in Islam...But they are free to as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
TheStig000 3 years ago
Does anybody really get up in the morning and ponder the definition of secularism before they take any action that day?
mjdoyza 3 years ago
Brigitte Gabriel has a new book, "They Must be Stopped". I think atheism is good way to at least slow them down.
Signofthedollar 3 years ago
Well, religion, in secularism, IS a problem... so yeah, whatever one mean - religion will not gain any more power (and that's what muslims - and christians - want, obviously). I love it here in Sweden... :)
deusAtheismus 3 years ago 4
This video made me think.. Who is my favourite muslim thinker. Then i realised the two words were contradictory. Religious thinking is not thinking, its the lack of!
walterhull 3 years ago 10
he's pretty wrong about his view of European secularism. There are religious political parties in the Netherlands for example and the state does not at all rule over religion. He's way off at least when talking about the dutch, and as far as I know most other European countries. (france is an exception)
judasnils 3 years ago
By his definition the england of henry VIII was a European secular nation as well btw but now even the French or English goverment don't appoint clergy etc...
judasnils 3 years ago
The part about Europe sucked but the part about western attitude towards islam was GOLDEN.
Spathever 3 years ago
You don't watch much TV do you? SNL, Family Guy, Morel Orel, South Park all satire religion. If satire is not a poignant criticism what is?
Splichatysplike 3 years ago
I must agree with a lot of the commenters that this man's ideas of European secularism is very skewed. (I live in Europe)
Waldheri 3 years ago 3
And I will back you up. Like the last Europe-America video PiroNiro posted, it seems like the speaker is mostly talking out of their arse when referring to 'Europe'. And the "appoint its clergy" bit...where does that happen, exactly?
DratVanity 3 years ago 2
The thing is, while there are exceptions (like those wacky religions that use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals), Americans generally expect that religious practices won't be violating American laws.
Islam's misogyny and tendency toward excessive violence are the kinds of things America simply won't tolerate in the name of freedom of religion.
So in the end it comes down to this: BE Muslim, BELIEVE in Islam...but find a way to do that without violating civil rights and being overly violent.
BionicDance 3 years ago
i agree that many US citizens want muslims to abandon islam. but this has little to do with secularism. rather it is part of the religious right's agenda, and this is a christian agenda.
greycloud24 3 years ago
I have some of his books. :)
sighuponsigh 3 years ago
In America, historically, the state and religion were seperate. This means that the state is by law secular although now it is de facto mildly theocratic. As an atheist, I despise virtually all religious dogma, but the reality is that Christianity is really just annoying while Islam is horrifically barbaric. But as I don't want my head to get chopped off, I'll end this by saying, "Allah is the super best god in the world!"
Lionspoint 3 years ago 2
I'm not really sure what he was trying to say...
Sure, I'd like to see muslims stop being muslims, as much as I'd like seeing any religious person stop being religious. But it would be enough if they'd stop some of their practices that are incompatible with western values.
Repoes 3 years ago 3
What he's saying is that Americans want to stay
Christians that are sorta secular... but want Muslims to be very secular to the point of forgetting their religion all together.
takenflame 3 years ago
His position seems to be rather weak. "European secularism"? Talk about a generalization...
hardy82 3 years ago 3
Living in the UK, I have to confront this man's ignorance on the concept of "European" secularism, when there is no such thing, each nation has its own laws. France is strictly secular while our Queen is the head of the Church of England, but it promotes religious tolerance and dialogue. In Germany one has to pay a tithe to a church of one's choice (tho it has to be recognised by the state). Spain and Italy are very Catholic and so religion does affect some laws (Sunday-work etc)...
0503130s 3 years ago 4
"Islam" literally means "submission" and of course what is meant is "submission to God."
"Democracy" means "power to the people."
It doesn't get more incompatible than this.
And by the way this guy's definition of "European secularism" is absolutely full of shit.
GeeWeezzz 3 years ago 3
WTF he talking about? Secularism in Europe means that religion is state controlled and the government appoints religious rulers??
I'm in europe, and that is not what happens.
at the end he says, that Americans expect muslims to be more secular than americans... well YES!,
why? because Islam is more fascist that Christianity by far.
if you compare a so called moderate christian with a moderate muslim, you can see that they are not the same
Islam and democracy are incompatible, by definition
tieInterceptor 3 years ago 4
He is mainly talking about Laicism, the French model. It comes from the fact that the century long fight for democratisation in Europe was a fight against the reactionary Catholic church as well as kings and kaisers that ruled with divine authority propaganda.
His confusion is: "secularism" everywhere, means (besides what he talks about) also the protection of atheism, antitheism and heresies and different lifestyles, this is what the Islamists don't want and many Muslims still don't accept.
truestefq 3 years ago 2
well, secularism in Europe is definitely does not = France...
so the guy is way off...
France is posibly the most secular at a state level due to the fact that they removed the church and king in a revolution. They know well enough what happens when you let religious power do what they want.
tieInterceptor 3 years ago 2
"truestefq says: ""secularism ... many Muslims still don't accept"
totally agree, and it is A hughe problem. Can't have integration of Muslims if they can't let this be. In a Secular society Atheism is a right, and blasphemy does not exist
In islam atheists are not tolerated, leaving the religion is penalized by death, the Law Sharia is against the human rights convention
Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with secular democracy, and that is why integration is at best really hard, at worst impossible.
tieInterceptor 3 years ago 2
I think he dances around the issue that came up with Ayaan Ali and Ibn Warraq vs. "Muslim Reformers", which is a false dichotomy:
The real issue is simply not a proper definition of "secularism", but rather the insistence of human rights for everybody, as mentioned, regardless of creed, gender, lifestyle. But this would mean less power for the clerics or fascist/theocratic regimes. So it's not mainly a decision by the US but rather of Muslims: what kind of society do they want to live in?
truestefq 3 years ago 4
that is a question that Muslims can't answer in a way that would satisfy a secular free society
because if a Muslims does "reform" and becomes 'civilized' with the human rights and freedom from religion that we are used to in a secular society. Then what? There will always TRUE Muslims that will pop up and rightly claim that they are following the Qu'ran and that the other ones are 'westernised' then blow up some shit.
my advice, don't bother with reform, just give up medieval superstitions.
tieInterceptor 3 years ago 4
tieinterceptor
Total agreement with your stance. Just give up the ancient sheep herder mentality and fairytales and join the 21st century. It seems so straightforward but I guess it helps to be less indoctrinated from birth to be able to see the bull for what it is.
saxmanchiro 3 years ago 4
He probably thinks of the french idea of secularism because they banned the Hijab and other religious crap from the schools. Hes also probably aware of how other countries in Europe think about secularism, but chooses to give a more ignorant view for political reasons.
PorchMoneky 3 years ago
Indeed, porchmoneky: he builds up a "anti-muslim" straw men by misconstruing "secularism" (separation of temple and state) by mixing it with something else: "secularisation" (decline of religiosity in modern societies) - he should have looked at the wikipedia "Secularity"-disambiguation page before saying something like that;)
In this way he can avoid questioning the failure of islamic societies/dogma to adapt to modernity and blame the US for theological grievances in the "islamic world".
truestefq 3 years ago
Yes I think he was right on Secularisation, If he had known my personal opinion on it. I am waiting for the religious to either nail themselves to a cross and await a slow death. ...Or equally they can just go home, pray if they want to, and await the same fate that way.
No only joking! Ignore them and they'll go away by themselves.
PorchMoneky 3 years ago
Uh..I dont live in Europe and I know this guys definition of "european" secularism is completely wrong. European secularism does not exist, i.e. because the separate countries have their own views. French secularism is just our secularism but more extreme. The UK is not secular, it is religiously plural, and etc. Where do these moronic videos come from?
berrypievision 3 years ago
Why cant secularist and leftist and these other groups approach the secularist and progressives in the middle east, and not just assume because they are middle eastern, they love islamic fundamentalism?
berrypievision 3 years ago
how is it Americas problem that immigrants from whatever religious background view secularism as an attack on there religion because the populous is phobic to that certain religion? The populous opinion and secularism have nothing to do with each other.
Unless I'm missing something secularism does NOT need further definition, keep religion out of government and government out of religion, its that simple and has worked thus far.
sctshman 3 years ago
Anti-religion is the way to go. I have a dream that one day people will no longer feel the need to construct shaky moral and ethical systems on the grounds of what they think their imaginary friend wants.
aaronhallam61 3 years ago
The Islamic world should start by taking Turkey's path of secularization and then perhaps slowly remove religion from society.
America does too need to take the final step.
qanazir 3 years ago
Turkey aint all that secular
alunhughes 3 years ago
Turkey is not a secular country. It discriminates everybody who is not a Muslim of the Sunni Hanafi school. Turkish Christians and Jews are declared "aliens", Alevi and Atheists are publicly denied and attacked by fascist or islamist rabble when they voice their opinions, while the police does nothing.
Kemalism unfortunately became something like a cult itself, instead of attempting a real secular democracy today Kemalists are fascists, thus giving the Islamists the chance to take over.
truestefq 3 years ago 2
We're doing better in integrating Muslims into our society than the Europeans, thank you very much. There's now Shariah courts in Britain. Our Mosques get raided by the FBI occasionally. We're doing fine and aware of the danger that Britain seems oblivious to.
CadicusTheDamned 3 years ago
Muslims have time and time again brought this on themselves by their anti-democratic, anti-Kafir, terroristic demonstations and actions both in the streets and in their mosques. While they are living in western nations. Many nations of the west want to tolerate islam but do not want their governments toppled by it.
KasparHauser4 3 years ago 2
The world would be a better place if the pious shut the f**k up
Davesteps 3 years ago 3
HELLO! A European here!
This guy is not right about secularism.
Secularism in Europe means pretty much the same as in America, there should be a separation of church and state.
Nobody have EVER talked about the state ruling over the church. At least not in Sweden.
However, the state could get involved if the Church or the Mosque doesn't follow the rules of law but they would never try to run the Church or the Mosque.
Salladsdressing 3 years ago 2
Salladsdressing: I respectfully disagree with you. There are tithes to local churches that must be paid by citizens living in that community whether one goes to the church or not. Switzerland comes to mind, and Germany, as only two examples. This, in my mind, is not a separation of church and state. Some countries may be more able to separate religion from government, but there are still those countries in Europe that do not (hurray Sweden!).
tyendanega 3 years ago
I absolutely agree with you, neighbour. It's the same here on the other side of the Gulf. But church and state aren't completely separate here, the biggest church does have a special status, but the state has little or no control over it.
Every time somebody talks about Europe as if it was a single homogenous country, it's really obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
SAsgarters 3 years ago 3
The majority of people in the US are Christians, and Christianity has undergone a reformation of extrordinary proportions where there are so many denominations now, it's almost impossible to count. Since Islam is a relatively new religion and has not undergone reformation in the same way, I think most Americans see (and it's a stupid view) all Muslims agreeing with the radical practitioners of Islam. What's the answer to change this view? Education primarily, and possibly community outreach?
tyendanega 3 years ago
Islam is not new by any stretch of the imagination, in fact Islam is proly as old if not older then Christianity. Atheist here BTW just pointing out that.
warwizard87 3 years ago
warwizard87: I respectfully disagree with you. Islam centers around one man, Muhammad, who was only born about 570 of the common era. The Roman empire had already ceased to exist about 5 years earlier with the last hurrah of Justinian I. Islam wasn't practised widely as a religion until Muhammad's messages from Allah were written into what we now know as the Qur'an in around 632 of the common era. Christianity had been around hundreds of years prior to this. All of this history is easy to find.
tyendanega 3 years ago
Actually, Islam is newer by several centuries. Aruguably, it is now going through the "Dark Ages", similar to what Christians endured long ago.
ltflermy 3 years ago
Telling how he doesn't try to contradict the claims that Islam is anti-democratic, misogynistic, etc.
He says that Americans want Muslims to stop believing in Islam, and to some extent he is correct. As an atheist myself, the Christians I can get along with are the ones who don't take their faith too seriously. The ones who really, deeply believe that the Bible is the literal word of God are the Jerry Falwells and the Kent Hovinds. Absolutely destructive influences on society.
rudyhenkel 3 years ago 2
So yes, some of us do want Muslims to stop taking their religion so damn seriously. A belief that the Qu'ran (or Bible, or Torah) is the absolute and literal word of God is fundamentally *incompatible* with a civilized worldview.
rudyhenkel 3 years ago 5
Being from europe, i don't see this ruling over religion very much. Our laws even directly protect certain religious practices.
That being said. religion is a major pain in the ass. The only reason we have to keep up with it is because children our told into it, they are well marketed and have strong voices.
All the rest is just made belief and fairy tales.
To bad that with all the religious education it will always find its way in to the law.
msh1044 3 years ago 2
I'm not convinced that European securlarism really means what he says it is. I'd prefer him to substantiate that claim.
bluebeard2 3 years ago 4
I disagree with this guy. When I (from europe/england) say secularism, I want religion destroyed, bitches. That shit has got to go. It's been too long.
Lpoolboy 3 years ago 3
People should stop being muslim & christian, jewish, scientologists, etc. Everyone should be first & foremost a caring human & not justify being arseholes because of their religious beliefs.
mddawson1 3 years ago 5
Rubbish..
retepvosnul 3 years ago 2
Seconded.
SilentHobo 3 years ago
Hell yea anti-Islam books are the most popular. And this guy is full of shit. He's talking out of his ass. Playing the victim as Muslims do.
zbambam5 3 years ago 4
I believe freedom of religion and freedom of speech ends where another person's rights begin.
I don't know about this government having control over churches. It seems over the top.
I agree though, that many americans are being hypocritical about freedom of religion. "we're free to believe what we believe, but you're not." one problem is that actual secularism and freedom of religion on their own are already against some Americans' beliefs. How much do atheists already need to go in hiding?
jbz3 3 years ago
Both definitions are completely false.
What he classifies as "american secularism", is what secularism actually is, even though most americans don't accept it (because they want the christian faith favoured), and "european secularism"... where the f#ck did he get that from?
I live in Europe! That's not european secularism! That is in fact something that is generally seen as bad, in Europe.
F#ck you Vali Nasr!
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago 3
Who is this asshat? Secularism means that religion is run by the state? What?
rudyhenkel 3 years ago 3
Well...That is true for Turkey. But Turkey is not Europe.
GMLSX 3 years ago
turkey is not europe! for sure.
ConcernedHuman 3 years ago
Geographically, it is.
eduzitcho 3 years ago
Where the bloody fuck does that character get the "European defintion" for secularism from? I've never heard so much bullshit in my life!
What's his angle?
XGralgrathor 3 years ago
That sounds right to me. Don't you a Church of England?
whenindoubtdo 3 years ago
« That sounds right to me. Don't you a Church of England? »
Excuse me? And no, it doesn't sound right. Secular merely means "worldly." Secularism is not meant as a controlling force for religion; it merely means that worldly tasks, like the governing of a country for the good of its citizens, should be performed without religious influences. The secularism that that character proclaimed to be the "American definition" is simply *the* definition for secularism.
XGralgrathor 3 years ago 3