The Great Rapture Debate: Dr Thomas Ice & Richard Perry

[SRamdhani1]

There are 2 visible Comings, one FOR the Church in the air, Mt.24:29-31,Mk.13:24-27,Lk.21:­25-28, the other WITH it,Rev.19:11-21. Immediately after the Tribulation occurs in the midst of Daniel's Week at The Abom of Des. when the Jews flee to the mountains. Jesus says,IN THAT DAY He will be Revealed,Lk.17:24-37. Jesus'Coming in the Gospels is The Day of the Lord revealed,is also The 6th Seal,Rev.6:12-17,The Appointed Time & The End,Dan.11:27-31 & coincides with The Resurrection of Daniel 12:1-3.

[AllForYeshua]

@SRamdhani1

In the Book of Acts, Paul refers to those from Berea as being noble because they took all that he preached to them and sought the teachings out within the context of the scriptures, the Law and the Prophets. Other than the many interpretations of the Book of Daniel, where might you find any scripture in the OT that refers to a rapture event & endtime tribulation?

[SRamdhani1]

@AllForYeshua In Daniel chapter 12;1-3 shows that the Resurrection (Rapture) comes in the midst of Daniel's week when Great Tribulation begins. Jesus confirms this in Luke chapter 17:24-36.

[AllForYeshua]

@SRamdhani1 Dan 12:1-3 is the beginning of what we see fulfilled in Matt 27:52 and continues to this day as more are raised from death to Eternal life through Christ Jesus. So many people live to see the miraculous with their physical eyes and miss that the miraculous is in the receiving of the HS, whom births Eternity in those who belong to Christ Jesus. This is the fulfillment of Ez 37/1 Cor 12. The dead are raised and continue to be.

[SRamdhani1]

@AllForYeshua Dan.1-3 shows that Great Tribulation begins with the Resurrection of the just. Great Tribulation is the 2nd 3 1/2 years of Daniel's '70th week. It begins when Israel signs a 7 year peace deal with their neighbours. It is not yet fulfilled.

[AllForYeshua]

@SRamdhani1 When Jesus resurrected from the grave, His spiritual Kingdom, the Jerusalem that is above, began. The Eternal Kingdom is the real thing, not the one passing away. It's so easy to fixate on a physical kingdom, but Jesus brought down that temple & resurrected a new. The one in the middle east is as dead as any country around. A peace treaty with another country can't make it more dead than it already is. God's children are not in a specific race/flesh. Jesus said look up, not down.

[AllForYeshua]

@SRamdhani1 Do you really think that Paul missed this regarding himself and that it was for a time yet to come that he would not be present for? We do know that he is with the Lord now & that he is not coming back down here again to be resurrected with the Lord a second time. There's no rapture in scripture. The day that I die, today, tomorrow, or years in the future is when I will be caught up with the Lord. Same as Jesus. Same as Paul. The same yesterday, today, & forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

[AllForYeshua]

@SRamdhani1 What you miss, brother, is that the darkess moments in Biblical history were not about God's children being removed from the troubles at hand, but about God's children turning their hearts from God & toward the things of this world. If this world is getting darker, God's children need to look within themselves & not at physical Israel. We're the one's who are to carry God's light to a darkened world. If the world is getting darker, we are responsible.

[Nashhinton]

Thomas Ice looks like a goofball. But hey, at least he's saved.

[Beulah502]

I believe we are in the tribulation now, it just has not climaxed. Agree?

[Denemoore]

@Beulah502 agree I just made a video which strongly supports that.

/watch?v=U1cJgJHLv54

[conniemaew]

That was awesome and hilarious. I could hear your smile as you spoke on the video. He wasn't even aware he was being tripped up, nor do I imagine any pre-tribbers watching this. It is so obvious to us what the Scriptures say but logic appears to fail these people. Nice!

[Denemoore]

@conniemaew The problem with pretribbers is they always believe in once saved always saved as well. Revelation warns that we will stand for God and his law through trials and tribulations. This concept is completely incomprehensible to a saved christian. why stand for trials if you are already saved no matter what? This leads people to 1) not have faith God can protect them no matter what 2) believe studying the bible has no effect on their salvation...hence a shallow understanding of the bible

[conniemaew]

@Denemoore  Agreed.

[Beulah502]

The resurection and rapture are spiritual things not physical

[Beulah502]

The "cloud" -- one thing that obscures is that the return Christ is not Jesus the man, Only the reality -- the "Christ" will return. That is the spiritual reality of Christ and He will not necessarily be Jewish or from Israel. Huge mistake to think so.

[Beulah502]

Christ will return pre-tribulation but because He is not recogized tribulations follow.

The is what "coming on a cloud" means. Things like "smoke" or "clouds" means obscured or unclear, obstructed.  Why? The "cloud" is the confusion setup by the Christian churches.. All the false and unintelligent dogma and doctrines. A lot of serious error, I call all that dogma and doctrine stuff "churchianiry " as opp;osed to Christianity which is the vision of the true Christ and His pure teachings

[Beulah502]

the greatest gift God gave man is his rational mind. You can be faulted seriously if you do not use it. Note the mistake the First Advent of Christ. The Jewish thought the Christ would be the Kind of a worldly Kingdom. Note the consequences of this human error.,

[Beulah502]

Resurrection is not a physical event, but rather a spiritual event. The physical dead are just that and coming back to life is not possible.

Note: Science and religion must agree. Science with out religion could be gross and harmful. And religion without science is simply superstition. It should be dumped totally.

[Nashhinton]

The Antichrist will be the Islamic madhi (messiah). The false prophet will be a fake Jesus- who Muslims see as a prophet. The ten horned beast will be the islamic caliphate, which will consist of 10 middle eastern nations. The one world government the Antichrist will set up, will be a totalitarian Muslim dictatorship. Also, the catholic headquarters in the vatican will be bombed by Islamic extremists, according to my interpretation of the bible.

[Denemoore]

@Nashhinton I'm thinking the false christ will be so clever that he will fulfill not just the muslim prohphecy but all the false prophecies and galvanize all the false religions together. We know who designed all these false religions, and therefore satan knows how to bring them all together. hence why we have the toleration, unity and poltical correctness movements trying to steem roll anyone with common sense.

[axe414]

@Denemoore I agree with you

[luap123311]

Rapture will be here very SOON for God has given me three dreams about the coming Beast - the Anti-Christ!

[robbiek77]

@luap123311 as I understand it, from my CONVERSATIONS with GOD it'll be VERY VERY Soon.

[nachodaddy]

Anyone who "flies away" flies away with the false christ, ie, Satan. God's little flock ain't goin' nowhere. When the false christ is in Jerusalem calling God's people in front of him to testify God's word to him, where are those who are raptured away? They're in Satan's hip pocket, that's where.

[Nashhinton]

It was a good video

[Nashhinton]

Also, read 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and John 14:1-3. Sinse Jesus is talking about us being taken to the father's house, which we know is

in heaven, shouldn't we agree on the pretribulation position? If Jesus were to restore everything as soon as he came to earth, as dick perry says, then the statement about christians being taken to the father's house, is useless. Dick, i hope your Reading this.

[Nashhinton]

Read revelation 3:10! This supports a pretrib view of the rapture. The Greek word for 'from' in this verse translates it into 'out of'! 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 says, "...how (they) turned to God from idols to serve the living and true god, and to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even

Jesus who DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME. Again, 'from'= 'out of'!

[FaceAfro]

@Nashhinton Revelation 10:6-7, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. There is no pre-tribulation rapture according to these verses. In fact it is specific. It is at the seventh trumpet after the saints martyrdom's. First those who are already asleep in Christ will raise the moment the trumpet sounds. Then those shortly after who will be murdered for God will instead of sleeping be lifted up the moment they die. free christian books at nlmusa.com

[UppsalaDragby]

Finally, here is a counter-question to the one made in the video. Is there any scripture, verse of passage in the Bible that says that Lazarus would be resurrected BEFORE the "last day"? When Mary told Jesus that her brother would be resurrected in the last day, Jesus merely replied "I AM THE RESURRECTION".

[UppsalaDragby]

Daniel was told that the "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed" for "your people". And Jesus also made it clear that, despite the crumbs that fell off the table, he was only sent to the lost tribes of Israel. Why do we quote every thing Jesus said as though it was directed to the gentile church? The church, and the rapture, were mysteries. These mysteries and the scriptures that deal with them apply during the "times of the gentiles".

[UppsalaDragby]

Despite the fact that Paul reveals the mystery of the ingrafted branches and the formation of one body in Christ, he still makes a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. He still counts "the Elect" as Israelites, even though we know that they are part of the body of Christ. The gentile church is not dealt with during the 70 prophetic weeks of Daniel.

[UppsalaDragby]

"What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the Elect did."

The context in Rom 1-10 is whether God rejected his people (the Israelites). Paul tells us that even though Israel rejected the covenent of faith there was till a remnant that remained faithful (v 4). These are "the Elect".

The others were hardened (v 7). What "others"? Those who rebelled. He is saying that not EVERYONE among the Israelites was hardened, even though most were.

[UppsalaDragby]

Where's my post...

[FORMETOKNOWONLY]

Look up the word Harpazo.

[boatklicko]

I would just say one thing to all those who try to prove a point from silence. The word Bible does not appear anywhere in the scriptures. Does that mean it dosen't exist? Think about it!

[dakidrick]

THERE IS NO RAPTURE! Where in the bible has anyone been "raptured". You are all looking for a way out of prosecution. we will persecuted for being a christian and if u dont like that then choose the side of the enemy and DEPART FROM THE FATH like all the rest will.. the bible calls that "The Great Fallen away".

[8246371950]

Wrath in judgments as in seals trumpets and bowls. Then the latter half is called the Great Tribulation. The verb to keep is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is from or out of this phrase keep from supports the pretribulation rapture caught up of the church read John 14:1-3 1Cor15:15,52 Thess.4:13-17 Daniel 9:24-27 and Jer30:7

[8246371950]

In my BIBLE nkjv the meaning of REV 3:10 means in my opinion Keep you from the hour of trail Christ description an event still future that for a shor time severely test the whole world must refer to the time of the tribulation the 7 year period before Christ earthly kingdom is consummated featuring the unleashing of divine wrath.

[8246371950]

The final and universal revelation of Christ as judge occurs at the Great White Throne judgment following Christ millennial reign on the earth. Angels always accompany Christ in his coming for judgment. In my BIBLE njkv

[8246371950]

The Lord promised this two fold coming for rest and retribution When the Lord Jesus is being unveiled in his coming as Judge. The first aspect of this revealing occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

[8246371950]

Paul was a fellow sufferer for the the just cause of Christ He like the Thessalonians hoped for the ultimate rest and reward for their suffering for the kingdom that was to come when Christ returned to judge the ungodly.

[8246371950]

Here is a verse so open your heart and eyes to see turn to Revelation 3:10 Here he is talking to the Church of Philadelphia. This is where the church is caught up with the Lord and will not face the trails of the Tribulation. So if he keeps us from the Trails of the Tribulation then it obviously happens before the Antichrist shows up. Then when the Antichrist shows up the trails of the Tribulation.

[xena1973]

@8246371950 So then you believe of the 7 church 6 will go thru the tribulation but the church of philadelphia will not, so explain and I would like a reply how do you fit a pre trib view with 2 Thess chapter 1 Paul speaking to the church that rest will occur at the 2nd coming which Paul is describing............

[NHBChristianTalk]

I have a serious problem with some of the things mentioned here. First, there is no mention at all of a 7 year tribulation any where in the New Testament. Second, there is no mention of a 1 thousand year reign of Christ anywhere also in the New Testament. In Revelation 20 it is all plural in Greek, "thousands of years". There is no 1 there and in Greek "a" is not part of the 1st century Greek language. For my position see my videos or visit NHBChristianTalk.webs.com. thanks Dr.G

[xena1973]

There is only one bride, one body, Jew and Gentile uncircumised and circumised are one not two, Jew and Gentile are one bride one body for Christ not two the elect are the believers who are born again.........and the elect is the church body of christ found and spoken of at the 2nd coming Matthew 24

[MrSoulja87]

Rapture is before the 7 year tribualtion period. The Gloirus comign at the end of the tribulation period includes the gathering of all post trib saints.

[richardperry2]

@MrSoulja87 - who told you that?

[MrSoulja87]

@richardperry2

The Word of God told me that. When you rightly divide the wolrd of God you can see it clearly. God Bless.

[BCJ5297]

richardperry2 One thing I believe your missing regarding Mark 13:27, Mat 24:31 and like passages is talking about the Jewish Elect. They are to be an eternal generation.He sends his angels to gather them from the 4 winds not the Saints (Isa 11:11-12, Isa 65:9 and other passages.) The Saints come back with Christ from Heaven at the 2nd Advent. Were do u think the Marriage Supper takes place at! The Bible shows a Pre-Trib Rapture. Michael is not the restrainer, nor the Spirit, but the Saints.

[xena1973]

@MrSoulja87 The try to explain to me in 2 Thess Chapter 1 Paul the Apostle tells the church the rest will happen at the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes in fire to judge the ungodly, tell me are there two bodys or two church bodys ever taught in the bible ???

[xena1973]

@MrSoulja87

[thetruthimpart]

@MrSoulja87 For any pre-tribulation believer I would like to ask some questions 1) Do you have to be dead to be resurrected ?2) When are dead in Christ raised ? 3) when do we appear before Jesus without sin ? 4) Would you please use three verses of the scriptures?

[shofaruk]

@MrSoulja87 Strange how the Lord Jesus in his greatest message (Olivet discourse) on the end times didn't once mention a return before the tribulation. The only gathering he mentioned is after the tribulation.

Also speaking to his closest friends he continually said "When you see, when you see." Why say this to his followers if they were not going to be there? The argument is that he was speaking to the Jews but actually he was speaking to his disciples not disbelieving Jews.

[richardperry2]

@shofaruk - Excellent observation and Straight to the point.

[MPPFLIPP]

@shofaruk The reason is that it was & was being kept a 'mystery" as Paul taught, or a Secrete, . GOD allowed the "mystery" to be revealed by Paul to keep satan in the dark. Since satan does all he can to destroy, disrupt, stop, curtail any actions the Church is here for. GOD has hidden many various subjects from satan thru the years to keep him off-base.

[Hooverdarnit]

OOPS. I may be wrong. In Matthew 24: 30-42 it looks like there is no rapture, just the second coming. Either way, now is the time to prepare for the second coming. Glory to God.

[richardperry2]

You are not wrong. This is about the Second Coming.

It is at the Second Coming that Christ gathers all His people, including the catching up of those alive and left.

[ETWFJ]

@richardperry2 Matt 24:27 and 28 is the rapture, its not before the tribulation starts, nor is it at the end.

It follows the abomination of desolation (Matt 24:15), yet is before the Matt 24: 29 which best fits the 4th trumpet.

[Hooverdarnit]

There is a rapture. The reference of two people working in the field and one taken away and the other left behind, is as clear as God can make it that true believers of the time will be taken away before things get too bad during the Great Tribulation.

The Rapture does not take place before OR after The great Tribulation. It takes place soon after the great Tribulation has already started.

The second coming is when his foot touches the Mount of Olives, not when he comes in the clouds.

[megaman2160]

@Hooverdarnit  No it does not. the rapture takes place before the tribulation

[xena1973]

@megaman2160 So then how do you work 2 Thess chapter 1 which clearly Paul is speaking to the church telling them rest will occur at the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes with fire to judge the ungodly.

[Denemoore]

@Hooverdarnit ok so you think that verse about one taken one left behind is clear? did you read the rest of the verse which describes the elements of the earth melting away simultaneously?. the guy left behind is melted.

[TyAmerica]

As you can see, they are taken to judgement. This is not a "rapture". To be "taken away" is to be taken to judgement just as the wicked were "taken away" during the time of the flood in Noah's day.

[TyAmerica]

megaman2160,

When there are two in the field and one is taken away, where is that person taken to?

Scripture says in Luke 17:37

And they answered and said to him "Where Lord?" So he said to them "Wherever the body is, there the vultures will be gathered together"

(Read verse 31-37 for the context of who is really taken away)

[megaman2160]

jesus said two shall be in the field one shall be taken the other shall be left. two women shall be grinding at the mill one shall be taken the other shall be left

this is the rapture. one will be taken up. the other one will be left here

[robwiley01]

and there is No 7 years period either. The Christ was taken away from amongst them and the law oblation ceased at the same time described in Daniel 70th week. the sacrifice (Yeshua) was removed and the grace ensued cancelling the law oblations.

[mikelmillion]

When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

[xena1973]

???? how in the reading Luke 12:36 in context is these connected to the rapture, when Jesus Christ says He will come after the tribulation not before Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28, I dont shy away from the verse but reading in context in v. 40 Jesus says "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" in reference to the 2nd coming so when you read it and compare to Matthew 24:36, 44, the wedding will not take place till the 2nd coming which occurs in Matthew 24:29-31

[xena1973]

But like before another pre triber said the same thing 2 Thess 1:1-12 is for unbelievers during the tribulation but you said there is only 1 bride so Paul the apostle is speaking of the 1 bride who will receive rest at the 2nd coming spoken of in v. 7-10

[xena1973]

Luke 12:36

35 Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those

Jesus Christ speaks of these men waiting for the master when he returns so that when He comes and knocks they may open the door to him immediately again it speaks of waiting but no connection to the rapture or tribulation or when these will happen

[mikelmillion]

Zechariah 14:1-15

[mikelmillion]

Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3

[xena1973]

There is just one not there. !!!! if one of your one teachers who are pro trib says these how can I believe what you say as well use John 14:2-3 in context there is no reference to the rapture or tribulation these, the verses speak of Jesus Christ coming back at the 2nd coming as well you still have the problem Jesus Christ never said He would come back before the tribulation

[xena1973]

Oh by the way who are the elect in matthew 24:29-31 ?????

[mikelmillion]

JEWS God calls THE JEWS mine elect

[richardperry2]

Jewish Israel vs. Elect

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the Elect did.

AND

Romans 2:28-29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,"

Born of the Spirit = Jew of God.

[megaman2160]

@richardperry2 ice is wrong about the comings. according to thirdeagles he comes 4 times. the rapture. armageddon, the millenium and judgement

[lilgirlinchobee]

who or what in the world is third eagles? i dont believe that book is apart of the bible lol. and magaman according to the bible which is the word of God , the truth christ comes back 2 times not 4.....

[megaman2160]

@lilgirlinchobee who is richard perry? OH a false prophet

[xena1973]

@richardperry2

[BCJ5297]

@richardperry2 Romans 2-28-29 does not negate the fact that God gave the literal seed of Abraham a land of promise. Romans 2-28-29 is talking about a real Jew or what I like to call a completed Jew. The true Jew who gets recognition from God, not people, is one who is not simply circumcised outwardly in the flesh, but one who has been circumcised inwardly, by the Spirit, and not the letter (2:28-29) Jesus is Elect, Jews are an Elect, Saints are an Elect, Angels are an Elect!

[xena1973]

@mikelmillion and Jews must be born again just like a gentile there is no special salvation plan all are born under sin................the jew and gentile are one body the book of galations

[xena1973]

Let me refrase that but no connection to the rapture as one of your own teachers who believe in the rapture said and I quote: Dr. David Reagan Pre Tribulation Rapture: First of all let me say that the reason this is a controversial topic is that there is not any verse in the Bible that tells you point blank when the rapture will occur. You can't turn to any verse that says rapture is going to occur at the beginning of the tribulation the middle of the tribulation or at the end of tribulation

[GavinFinley]

Bravo Richard!

The conversation is now going Biblical.

May God's pilgrim saints have their feet shod with the preparation of God's peace.

[TheNeedForRepentance]

Fantastic job Richard. It's rare to find someone who will try and debate a pre-trib position knowing full well that they can't back up their claims biblically. Frankly, when I look at the fact that all of God's elect, from the apostles, to the prophets, to the early Christians, to Christ Himself, have all suffered greatly for the kingdom, and then to hear believers argue that they'll be spared, or think they should be, disgusts me very much. Thanks for the upload.

- TheNeedForRepentance

[xena1973]

SPIKEL31A In a reply back to me regarding 2 Thess 1:1-12 u say the church is in heaven but Paul is speaking persecution, tribulation, suffer, tribulation is that occuring in heaven and awating believers no it is speaking of believers on earth awting for rest at the 2nd coming of jesus christ. rememeber context context context and seems you twist the words whn the only refernce to heaven is regarding Jesus Christ coming back again at the 2nd coming

[mikelmillion]

uhhh homes.....it WILL be BELIEVERS left on earth AFTER the Rapture

[xena1973]

So then your telling there are two brides one at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming ??????

[mikelmillion]

There's 1 bride which is the Church, The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected, yet there isn't any mention here.The rapture isn't mentioned because itdoesn't happenat the second coming.

[xena1973]

A quick question in 1 Thess 4:13-18 the word in v. 15 coming means parousia throught the scriptures the word parousia in the greek only means one thing 2nd coming and Jesus Christ spoke of only one 2nd coming after the tribulation because Jesus Christ said He would not come back before that.......not unless you believe in 2nd comings one at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming.....

[xena1973]

Remember read the chapters in context context context the word hour and day in Matthew 24 refers to the 2nd coming, as well in Mark 13, and Luke 12 and anywere found in the N.T.

[mikelmillion]

??Ok well why didnt Jesus at his Second coming Ressurrect anybody? Dont u think if he had raptured anybody WHEN HE RETURNED he would have wrote it in the Book of Rev? This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

[xena1973]

I'll get to you tomorrw regarding the resurrection I'm tired already......

you should listen to the "Last Trumpet Rapture Debate: Dr David Reagan & Richard Perry.......

[SPIKEL31A]

6:35 The ELECT..and the CHURCH aren't the same people being spoken of here.

Abraham for example isn't part of the Church..yet he is part of the ELECT. The same goes for Isaac and Jacob and King David and Moses and Adam and Eve etc etc..

Elect doesn't mean Church..the words are not synonyms. The elect in this example above is not part of the church.

[richardperry2]

Yet, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be at the Wedding Banquet - Won't you?

[xena1973]

The elect is the church there is only one elect body in the N.T.

Romans 8:33

33 Who shall bring a charge against Gods elect? It is God who justifies.

Speaking of believers who have been justified by Jesus Christ if you want read the prior v. 32 it clearly speaks of believers not just jews but the body of Christ

[xena1973]

Colossians 3:12

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

Speaking of believers in Christ and characteristics of the new man

as well read the prior v.8-11 speaking of one body

[xena1973]

1 Thessalonians 1:4

4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

Again speaking of believers in christ as well brethern is always refering to believers in the church

[xena1973]

2 Timothy 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul speaking of the elect believers in christ no other group

[xena1973]

Titus 1:1 speaking of God elect

1 Peter 1:1 speaking of God elect

1 Peter 1:2 speaking of God elect

1 Peter 2:6 speaking of God elect

1 Peter 5:13 speaking of God elect

2 Peter 1:10 speaking of God elect

2 John 1:1 speaking of God elect

2 John 1:13 speaking of God elect

each verse as well you are welcome to read the prior verses and the verses after in context show that they are all speaking of believers in Christ who have been saved the elect is the church no other group

[xena1973]

I have 2 questions for you in 2 Thess 2:1-4 the gathering is it the rapture and please read the verses yes or no and in 2 Thess 1:1-12 it speaks of the church getting relief at the 2nd coming of christ not at the rapture what are we still doing here on earth if the rapture is suppose to occur before the tribulation when it says relief is at the 2nd coming

[richardperry2]

You are correct that 2 Thess 2 is describing the Second Coming gathering which includes the "catching up" of those left alive at that time.

[xena1973]

U seem to dodge my question I have sent the same question 2 Thess 1:1-12 says that we as the church thru tribulation will have relief at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ not before that.

[xena1973]

U keep saying the elect is not the same as church wither you say elect, saints, brethern, beloved there is one body and that is the church alone no other body

[xena1973]

You still have not answered my question on 2 thess 1:1-12 its says that the church will not get relief till the 2nd coming not rapture before do you agree with the verse yes or no

[SPIKEL31A]

Jesus went back and forth to Heaven. Jesus told Mary at the tomb in JOHN 20:17.."don't touch me because I have not yet ascended to my Father" Then Jesus challenges Thomas to touch him in 20:27 so he must have gone and come back from the Father.

There is more than ONE going and return of Jesus in the Bible is my point to Perry.! WE call it the "second coming" but scripturally it really isn't IF you keep count.

[SPIKEL31A]

4:00 Perry says that the CHURCH gets relief..but that's not what the BIBLE says..

2 Thes 1:7,8 ..the Bible says ..and to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord shall be revealed from Heaven. It does not say WHERE the location of the church is. Perry assumes the "church" is on earth ...yet how can the church also still take rest where Paul is.

[eisenhowernixon]

How does He come out of heaven if He must remain in heaven until after the tribulation? How about the same way He descended in the cloud (Exod. 33:9) or the same way he descended upon Mount Sinai (Exod 19:18).

[Friendoflord]

It is amazing how people mislead themselves in the twisting of the word to fit thier belief system instead of letting the word form thier beliefs. to put in a "secret rapture" is adding, and twisting" to form a belief that is not accurate. For 2 thousand years now christians have suffered persecution, and will continue to suffer until the end when Yeshua returns at the LAST trump. there are "no second chanses to get it right".

[LouNor25]

Richard Perry is excellent and much needed! For some background on Thomas Ice, Google "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M. (see last part), "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret," "Wily Jeffrey," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Scholars Weigh My Research," "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts" and "Chuck Missler - Copyist." Great reads!

[JESUSRULZZZAMEN]

clearly ice said that "Christ will NOT RETURN TO EARTH at the rapture BUT He will meet us in the heavens in the clouds".... That is not coming to earth is it??? if we meet him in the clouds He didnt actually come to earth. The blessed hope of the rapture is also depicted in the jewish wedding tradition, when the groom comes unannounced at night and carries the bride hiding away for 7 days shutting the door. study the jewish wedding. we are the bride ;-) Even so come quickly Lord Jesus PTL!~

[xena1973]

2 Thess 2:1-3 is the gathering the rapture ?? answer the question and read the verses from context to context beginning to end

[JESUSRULZZZAMEN]

answer what question?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

soo many script to prove, but study the jewish wedding (how groom comes unannouced takes bride in secret chamber for 7 days- coincidence? not!) which will be indicative of Christ reuniting with His bride(the church) the Lord will keep his bride from His wrath ...Rom 5:9 ...justified by his blood,... saved from wrath through him.

rapture is not a salvation issue anyway

[xena1973]

why can't you answer the question yes or no pretty simple ??? and why do you bring up salvation it seems you like to avoid the subject or question you can't answer correctly, so I'll be waiting for my answer yes or no simple is it not

[JESUSRULZZZAMEN]

what is the question ??? i asked you what it was before, evidently you havent made it clear. IF YOU MEANT that 1 thes passage i did answer...1 THES refers to second coming which is a DIFFERENT EVENT, The second coming Jesus ACTUALLY LITERALLY COMES TO EARTH, the rapture we meet Him in the clouds THESE ARE 2 DIFFERENT EVENTS!!

[JESUSRULZZZAMEN]

2 thes talking about THE RETURN OF CHRIST after the trib rapture is different, Jesus doesnt ACTUALLY RETURN during the rapture we meet him in the clouds he doesnt come down to earth during the rapture, but Jesus will literally return to the Mount of Olives as Zechariah prophesied and the angels verified when HE RETURNS TO EARTH AFTER THE TRIBULATION(WRATH)

[JESUSRULZZZAMEN]

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast

[james46888]

Good points. Not to be picky, but one verse I wouldn't use is Isaiah 26:20, which I don't think is referring to the rapture but, rather, is simply talking about how during the tribulation the Jews will hide in the mountains, as in Rev 12. Hope that helps :)

[christianblazer]

1 Thes 1:10 speaks of that wrath that shall be fuflfilled at the coming of Christ on the last day; Rev 3:10 speaks of the temptation that shall come upon the world at around that point in time when Rev was written and possibly also of the day of judgment; And Isaiah 26:20 is addressed to the captive Jews in Babylon. He would preserve them while Babylon would meet it's destruction.

[lsandoval777]

Do you guys obey the ten commandments?

[richardperry2]

If serving Yahweh seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, ... But as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh. Joshua 24:15

[TreyDubzz]

The first 3 commandments are about Loving God First. The 4th is about giving Him thanks and praise. The last 6 are about loving others. Matt 22:36-40"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

[richardperry2]

Well said!

[WONDAWOMAN]

The fourth commandment about remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy is ALSO about LOVING GOD & PUTTING HIM FIRST. Through the 4th commandment we declare that he is GOD who created heaven and earth adn rested on the 7th day. Those 2 are repetition of the 1st in the 10, they do NOT CANCEL OUT THE 10, otherwise murder, and adultery are cool too.

[TreyDubzz]

I agree wondawoman! Loving God first does incorporate all 4 commandments. Thank you for clarifying this. I did not mean to say that the 4th commandment was not an expression of love to our Loving God and Father!.

May we continue to keep Him first in our lives always as He alone deserves.

Amen!!!

[faithful827]

i would think the overwhelming evidence from 2000 years of tradition would indicate the futility of trying to defend a pre-trib rapture...His Church (and MANY other ecclesial communities) has NEVER taught it and that less than 1/4 of Christianity is deceived by this erroneous teaching is also a good indication of its lack of foundation ... that it has only been around less than 200 years speaks volumes also

[jo7858]

John 6 vs 40 says all that seen him & believed on him that he ( Jesus ) would raise up on the last day,,, I assume he is speaking of those in his presence & those during his ministry on earth that seen him. And if the living are not to proceed the dead I assume we who are alive will be raised after those that saw Jesus,,like all his disciples his mother , father etc, etc,and the last day leaves no room for 7 more years of Jacobs trouble or tribulation!!! Last day sounds like the end to me !!!

[JAKEV25]

Richard....Not every christian is to be raptured....a limited number...a remnant will serve as Priests to God and rule as Kings with Jesus in Heaven....Like any government we cannot all be kings. After the "rapture" of the 144,000, which takes place after the great tribulation...Jesus comes and either you are a goat or a sheep....no rapture for the rest of us.......

[richardperry2]

So, Christ is now a shepherd of several flocks and goats too?

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be ONE flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

[JAKEV25]

Exactly richard...you see Matthew 25 shows your rapture theory incorrect.

31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

The sheep should have been raptured!

[JAKEV25]

There is a rapture for a limited number of chosen. Matthew 20:20

God chooses those to reign as Kings and Priests alongside Jesus....What do they do ?...they reign over the Earth....They must reign over someone......Rev 5:9

Rev 14 is quite clear there are two flocks...they are still one fold....The 144,000 and the great crowd.

Look at the discription of New Jerusalem and how it correlates with the 144,000. Jesus is the cornerstone...the 144,000 the remaining stones.

[boltingpuppies]

Daniel 12:1"..EVERYONE whose name is written in the book will be delivered." 1Corinthians15:23"..then when He comes, those who belong to Him." Notice Matthew 25 shows sheep who do not understand how they could have fed,clothed,or taken care of Jesus YET Christians DO know how we do these things, ie by helping our brethren. This is a clue. Pray about it. God Bless.

[faithful827]

sorry jake, but the scripture detailing the sheep and the goats is the same as the white throne judgement when our Lord will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead ... the sheep and the goats just indicate those that responded to God's call in their lives and will enjoy eternity with Him forever and those that did not and will be separated from Him forever

[bhatindawalla]

Correct.

[FollowerofYahshua]

Amen, remember 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[FollowerofYahshua]

Matt 7 /\

Romans 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[FollowerofYahshua]

Rev 713 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[boltingpuppies]

Amen Richard. Good debating. I still can't find any scriptures supporting a pretribulation return of Christ either! Since even the elect would be deceived if possible, I would think that the a/c will 'seem' to fulfill some prophecies. Jesus is clear, people will believe the lie because they did not LOVE the truth. LOVE the truth. The ORDER/TIMING laid out in prophecy is critical. We must love this truth. Those who are ambivalent about who comes 1st & 2nd are on shaky ground. God Bless.