Jacque Fresco - Generalism and Change

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Fresco actually solves the problems found in the Republic. There's an entire book written on this topic alone.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco Which problems in the Republic?

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser 1. There is the problem of social stratification (workers, guardians, rulers). Workers are with property while guardians and rulers are not. Workers are the producers while guardians and rulers are not. Problems will follow from this. 2. There is the problem of assuring that the rulers will return to rule the city (return to the cave). 3. The only safe guard against corruption is "proper training." Though education is important, continual reinforcements must also exist.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser However, in the Republic, there are no external reinforcements to safeguard against corruption. The closest thing to it is an honor system, where good deeds are honored and rewarded. However, this is not enough when the rulers are immersed in a world of scarcity, not to mentioned challenged by outside forces. The rulers already lie to their citizens, and under conditions of scarcity and outside pressures are bound to degrade into corruption.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco So how does Fresco's safeguard against the corruption of his polymaths?

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Don't expect the answer to be brief, especially when you're asking about corruption in general rather than particular instances of corruption. Providing 4 reasons, maybe you'll make the connection. 1 cybernation produces abundance thereby eliminating transgressions resulting from self-preservation; 2 it is a world system, so there is no threatening outside pressures that bear upon a city; 3 there are no leaders, decisions are arrived at by consultation w/computer arbiters;

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco Okay, this is ridiculous. Self-preservation is not the only reason people seek power over others. There is pleasure in it, as there is pleasure in servility also (hence idolatry of gods, monarchs, bosses, celebs etc). The idea that it could be a world system would require total agreement to implement it, impossible and undesirable (difference is freedom. Conflicts are the price of freedom). (cont.d)

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Indeed, not only self-preservation; I also mentioned self-maximization, which encompasses what you described. We have to be careful here. It is not 'necessarily' power over others. It is more likely that the pleasure is derived from feeling powerful - that does not always include power over others - it only does when in competition which is a characteristic feature of a scarcity oriented environment.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco I think it is crudely reductionist to the extreme to argue that power over others is merely the result of scarcity and competition. Sadism and masochism are not so narrowly confined. Political struggle gets a kind of masochistic pleasure (see Lyotard). This is a very complex area and the 'freedom from' argument doesn't really cut it. Also, power over others isn't necessarily negative nor is having power acted upon you - think education or artistic genius.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Regardless of whether a world system is desirable, it is inevitable. Because maximizing efficiency is a dominant theme of the modern ethos, a world system is fast approaching on the evolutionary horizon. It is your choice whether it be an open system or dominated by elite powers. Fresco works toward a type of open system out of fear of the latter. In fact, sociocyberneering will be implemented anyway, precisely because of its efficiency and ability to administer human needs.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco It seems a complete contradiction to say something is on the 'evolutionary horizon' and the claim it is 'your choice whether it be an open system' or not. We cannot control our evolution. Evolution happens by chance. Any attempt to control a direction we evolution biologically or socially is nonsensical and unscientific. Personally, I do not see Fresco's as an open system it seem terribly closed. Fresco offer talks about censorship (contd)

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco On a number of videos he mentions getting rid of certain types of literature that in his mind re-enforces certain "wrong" ways of thinking. Re: the social evolution - it would be impossible for total commitment globally to one cause (look at climate summits!) by the very nature of social evolution. Even if there was total commitment, it would take so long that inevitably the original ideal would be oppressive and hold back society. (contd)

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco (contd) Also, to rebuild cities or build new cities would take a long time. Undoubtedly there would be delays (as there always are in large scale projects). New generations emerge as adults who weren't consulted in the original decision to build this society. Ideals change over time or they find problems in the original ones, the final working society would be delayed further. Frustration, questions asked, then scapegoating - x is pulling their weight etc. (contd)

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco (contd) how offer has this happened?! Things become unpleasant to say the least.

Also, you can't expect the younger generations - say those who are five years old now - to share your commitment to global restructuring (which they would have to because it would take so long) and therefore this universal ideal would simply hold back and try to resist social evolution and become oppressive.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco (contd). Decision made by consultation w/ computer arbiters could not deal with complex moral dilemmas. A pure rational morality would lead to unsavory consequences (such as Kant's argument about telling the truth to a murder when asked where the intended victim has hidden). The categorical imperative is a way of acting regardless of consequence, therefore at times inhuman.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Every form of morality can have inhuman features. Utilitarianism, deontology, or egoism all have dark sides. Fresco's system would be utilitarian due to its scientific orientation (which tends to strive for the most gain with the least loss). However, on the individual level, it actually does have characteristics in common with egoism. However, with the removal of scarcity, detrimental consequences that can result from egoism are rendered benign or no longer appear. ...

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Though the above is true, Fresco rather introduces "Functional Ethics." With this, individuals make it their objective to eliminate moral dilemmas by engineering them out of existence. For example, there is the moral dilemma of factory farms and eating animal meat. The ethics of the future entails that a person eliminate the dilemma through technology. For instance, developing cell culturing technology to generate consumable meat. With an open system, such problems...

[MsBeiser]

@MsBeiser Sorry I'm a bit drunk, so please forgive any typos and poorly constructed sentences.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Unfortunately, there is too much misunderstanding here - a sign that Fresco has offered something novel. I can't justify taking the time to articulate all the intricacies that you have misunderstood. But I have appreciated your criticism.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco "I can't justify taking the time to articulate all the intricacies that you have misunderstood."

If you cannot justify it then you cannot be that committed to this cause, you cannot want to save the world that much. Surely it would be a priority? There aren't any "intricacies" to Fresco's thought.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser "Saving the world" does not depend upon correcting the confusion of one person.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser ...such problems can be eliminated quite quickly, especially if resources are made available to people. In the process of eliminating moral dilemmas, consultation with computer arbiters would be necessary to develop the technology.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco Fresco has a very naive Enlightenment-esque faith in rationalism. This has been destroyed by philosopher after philosopher since Kant. See Adorno and Horkheimer's Dialectic of Enlightenment as a particular good example of this.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser I admit, it does seem that way. Though Fresco does have the enthusiasm that the rationalists did, Fresco is of another category. He offers his system as a humanistic alternative to what Fresco sees as evolutionarily inevitable. However, this evolutionary inevitability will be a tyranny that reigns from elite economic powers. They will give us sociocybernated cities because it answers human needs. BUT we will have no control over it. Fresco wants to democratize the control.

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco No leaders? If you even get that far. Given the amount of restructuring of the planet you'd have to do to made current cities self-sufficient (imagine New York or London - this would be chaos, no?). The project would have to have an interim management of some sort and that's as far as you'd get.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser Fresco's approach is tabula rasa. New cities from scratch. They have done it in Dubai, but commercially. Old cities would be mined for materials. As cybernetics become more developed, individuals working on projects consult with a global network of information systems. All decisions derive from this consultation. No more arbitrary opinion or uninformed decisions. In phases, administration would occur as it does in large scale scientific experiments and engineering projects...

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco Tabula rasa is not feasible though is it on a global scale which in order to create a moneyless technologically advanced society it would have to be (or at least near enough). To build something as simple as a cell phone you need metals from across the globe therefore in order to get them without money they'd have to be an RBE. It is not feasible because where are these new cities to be built to house New York or London's people? (contd.)

[MsBeiser]

@jacquefresco (contd). How do you go about building new cities to house the world's population without destroying whats left of the environment and other animals with it? Surely restructuring cities would make more sense but then that would cause utter chaos and would take so long as to be utterly futile (as well as the human cost of possibly losing one's family home etc. for the maximizing of efficiency. There would be uproar and no support whatsoever). (cont.d)

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser ...The most challenging initial step is developing cybernetics and information systems. Giving the planet a nervous system so that information feedback is immediate. However, this is no greater than the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Program. The scale of Fresco's project to the Earth is proportionate to the scale of these past project to the United States. No one said it isn't ambitious.

[jacquefresco]

@MsBeiser ...4. programming and maintenance of the system is open to anyone, so if an attempt was made to introduce destructive programming, anyone capable can immediately correct it (similar to how open source software works)

[Jammieg001]

Googlearians and Wikipedieans

[CanadianBeaver]

Peace and Love!

[bigsteelguy]

How many people do you think will Survive without they're Cell phones, How many people do you think will survive without they're Refrigerator, how many people do you think will survive without glasses, how many people do you think will survive without a bicycle, car, truck, bus, plane, or train?

So we would not survive without Technology unless you can live up in the mountains using camp fires and the ground.

Just my point Technology is an Extension of the Human Race it is not a bad thing

[xxjacobxx3]

@bigsteelguy

camp fires are technology too (and w/e is used to get one started). lol

[walter0bz]

problems in existing system are due to deep heirachies, and people being dependant on things they do not control.

double sided sword. economies of scale from trade & specialization but then middle-men are empowered.

i think his world would be just like open-source-you'd have more freedom but it would come at the price of greater individual effort to use tech and certainly *lower* tech-level + much lower population.

however, it probably would make people happier.

[bigsteelguy]

Yeah greater individual effort only for the Transition, then once the world is cleaned up , then we can move forward and work on making out lives better as well as maintaining the planet.

Too many people today have too much stress and to much fear.

This needs to end now and deeply.

The venus Project is not a perfect society, it is not a utopia it is only better than what we got today.

And for over population we could build cities to float in the sea. Hurricane and weather proof cities

[bigsteelguy]

making (our) Lives better

[walter0bz]

personally i suggest:-

[1] sterilize SHEEP HERDERS

[2] sterilize SHEEP

or..

forget it...

your species is beyond redemption.

you are a transitionary form between "carbon-based life" and whatever follows.

Any scientist KNOWS entropy - complexity is the result of greater destruction elsewhere. hence your species will perpetually experience or create MISERY and DESTRUCTION.

you want SCIENTISTS to rule you???!!!

[bigsteelguy]

I'd rather have Scientists than Greedy Bankers and Greedy Politicians.

But that's not what this society is about, it's about having the world controlled by all The people not some leaders.

We all need to be our own self Leaders in this world.

The human race is much capable of much more than we give our selves credit for.

WE do have problems but sometimes we have to grow up, and learn to forgive and move forward.

[walter0bz]

agree with your point "we all need to be our own self leaders in this world"

[technatezin]

@walter0bz "we all need to be our own self leaders in this world"

Can't be done. If everybody becomes a leader of themselves then nobody will be a leader of anybody which means there are no good ideas relative to bad ideas, no stupid, crude and unworkable "solutions" compared to clever, elegant and functional solutions given any problems that will inevitably arise from simply being alive and sentient. A contradiction which leads to anarchy. Order will simply re-assert itself after chaos.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz (cont.) Whether that order that re-asserts itself after the temporary chaos is authoritarian, libertarian, individualistic, collectivistic depends on the group that finally wins out in ending the chaos usually employing violent means. In a chaotic environment where there are no "neutral" referee in establishing codes of conduct and enforcing those codes of conduct then all parties jockeying to end the chaos will be free to use anything and any means to do so including brutal torture.

[Parnell50]

Even nature itself speaks to us about specialist...they are doomed to extinction in the slightest upset in there environment

[HMSwarrior]

money, government, jobs and nations hold people back. we will overcome these things if we work together

[piffle4now]

we need to reclaim information as a whole before anything will change.

So many brilliant minds have been squandered through lack of access to relevant information;

[Malthus0]

Has Franco never heard of opportunity cost? His multidisciplinarian will just end up being a jack of all trades and a master of none.

[NegativeNick]

I don't think so, I would argue we need to work toward Consilience, check out the book by that title.

[joesub007]

Computer technology and automation can enhance or eliminate most manual tasks why should this be any different for mental tasks or do you use head instead of a calculator all the time? Are you willing to wager your life that you wouldn't make a mistake in 1000 math attempts without the aid of a calculator? Computer aided instruction can quickly be adopted to become computer aided thinking or computer aided working.

[brentoneccles]

Being a multi-disciplinarian does not mean you cannot specialise Malthus.

People will always only be informed in certain areas, but the most successful people have been generalists.

[technatezin]

@Malthus0 Actually, no. Organic human neural networks (aka. brains) never evolved in that way. If it was just like a computer with inerrant information recalled every time a question is asked then we would never need reference books. A human being doing simple multiplication for a 10,000 times would almost always never get every single question correct even though it's a simple operation learned in elementary school.

[Malthus0]

@technatezin Are you sure that your comment was not aimed at joesub007. He was the one talking about computers & the mind, my comment was just on opportunity cost.

[technatezin]

@Malthus0 I'm thinking that the educational methods and level of specialization that it fosters have gone to the extreme. You have advanced degree holders that are only good in one area of specialty and knows almost nothing else of other areas, but to be "officially" recognized as competent in broad fields of study you'll need to wade through years of lectures and exams that are more than likely forgotten as soon as the exams are "passed". It's unnecessary and archaic given present technology.

[Malthus0]

@technatezin As someone with an interdisiplinary degree myself I agree that others are 'trained' too much. However I think this occours because of the expansion & professionalisation of university life. The problem is that they are not taught how to learn a new subject on their own. As with graduates were in the early 20th century. They are thus traped in their subject. Change this & people will branch out organically as they discover their own interests.

[technatezin]

@Malthus0 Agreed. It's also has to do with cultural resistance to technology assisting in human endeavors like education and work. It's a kick-down for the ego-driven person that could handle multiple fields or be really good in one particular field without resorting to technology. Take the unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) for instance. He was trained as a mathematician where he could solve complex problems without computers. He targetted technology professionals because of the "power principle".

[Malthus0]

@technatezin I am not sure that is a particularly important factor.We have to remember that learning is hard & there are no shortcuts.The process of learning a new field is much the same as it ever was, it requires a lot of close reading at least, & preferably discussion & writing too. The process of learning can not be automated. The cost in time & effort is prohibitive for most people esspecially given the advantage specialists have over the dilettante in their area of expertise.

[technatezin]

@Malthus0 That is true for the most part given today's methods. Using only traditional books, lectures, note taking and exams it would almost always be true that learning would require: "...lot of close reading at least, & preferably discussion & writing". Use your imagination as to how this can be made more efficient and easier in a truly cooperative society which uses technology to optimize the effectiveness of all human activities. I can think of at least 3 ways tech. can improve education.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

learning - its like athletic training, you have to push your brain outside of its comfortable limits to make it evolve/develop.

Tech can't teach how to think or problem solve. Very good at presenting information though.

tech is very good for propoganda/brainwashing though.

a good example of using tech to actually stretch your brain would be to use a computer for programming, an activity which requires patience & develops problem-solving skills. suitable comps readily available :)

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

its reckoned it takes 10 years to become an expert in something.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz Nope, take the traditional classroom with note taking and personal teacher-student lectures at specific set times in the day and year. Semesters, classes, time tables if looked at with a truly impersonal objective perspective is literally medieval technology which hasn't changed in 500 years. Next, knowledge accumulation "learning" which should really be called mental labor is not paid work, but is actually PAID FOR by the students. Why is this?

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

i agree in web age information could be free :) issue is time taken to Learn & how you get fed while you're doing that.

r.e. 10 years to become an expert, this comes from Software, not 10 years to learn facts but rather 10 years to become an expert programmer who can really think about problem solving etc in this context, the figure was mentioned for other fields aswell. R.e. your original suggestion of tech/learning, perhaps use of Simulators would help but its' still hard work.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

i used to enjoy drawing a lot as a kid, didn't keep it up. i look at some digital paintings today often find myself saying "I really wish I could do that". a computer can't teach me - i know it would simply take a lot of practice. r.e. your criticism of traditional teaching methods, i think peeps would adjust to interactive teaching real quick. if you can self tutor then enter exams... you could skip paying for a lot of classes, right?

[walter0bz]

@technatezin - It is true that 'the system' doesn't need to educate everyone. With *mass production*. you only need the *best* designers,engineers, not loads of average ones. so huge chunks of the population are sadly left to do menial jobs i guess, which defintely sucks but i'm not really sure what you can do about it. When the oil runs out industrial civilization will collapse and most people will go back to making their own food (if they survive the shortages)

[technatezin]

@walter0bz (cont.) The short explanation is that our current economic system doesn't encourage technical progress or labor for improving the human condition. If any progress in technology is invented or discovered it is only implemented in so that it could help employers (exploiters of human labor) exploit labor more effectively so as to lower the monetary overhead on costs. Any monetary system is merchantilist in that the value of money is measured relative to what costs the merchant in sales.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

i think you're being extreme in your reaction here :) labourers can innovate to make their labour more valuable. Parents can innovate to educate their kids. Software evolves very fast. The problems in the world are power-asymetry. Money measures this, doesn't cause it. e.g - some people live in better locations, they're smarter, more charismatic, etc etc. hence they achieve power. be it monetary system, or breeding more kids in jungle, or acheiving military/political power

[technatezin]

@walter0bz (cont.) I think you misunderstood me. Suppose I'm an entirely objective observer of the extra terrestrial kind with super advanced technology which allows me to bypass all the monetary political favor trading that we currently call economics. What would be the one thing that would limit my technologies if we brush monetary economics aside? Answer: resources, energy and time. Money in it's present fiat currency form CANNOT measure this because it is a merchantilist invention.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

it is certainly true that the fruits of technology are NOT evenly distributed. to evenly distribute everything we all need equal altruism. and we'd also need to dislodge people from positions of power. easier said than done, how did they overcome crowds to get power in the first place ? How did tribes evolve into states with peasants and kings ? because of swords. Now we have automatic weapons, nuclear missiles. Its' not a "social"/"monetary" issue. its a question of POWER.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz Define power? Do you mean social organization? Control over people? The ability to use violence or deception to get your way? What is THE DEFINITION of power?

If it is meant given the above definitions then it is not sustainable. All societies based on a master-slave social relationship way of organizing resources and work WILL collapse. The ruins of past empires simply proves my point. The only question is when this will happen, how this would happen and what will replace it.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin - "Power" =

[1] violence - strength/weapons/fighting skill. Can't argue with sword/ gun if you dont have.

[2] herd-popularity. media? charismatic leaders? Some peeps really are easy to hypnotize/indoctrinate. Religion: power for leaders who engineer beliefs?'go forth & multiply' flock..

[3] superior knowledge or intellect (outsmart opponent)

[4] geographic location: desert-oasis? etc

[5] reproductive power (e.g power women have over men?)

no money? power would still exist. [more]

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

i dont know how old you are but the progress i've seen in my lifetime in computing is stagering.

When I was a kid i was taken to do work experience and saw million-pound flightsimulators, an entire cabinet full of curcuit boards to generate 3d imagery. Now a modern smartphone has superior graphics capability, and is connected on the web. The market can't be all bad. Agree 'fiat money' is far from perfect. if you can arrange your own barter you can avoid it.[more]

[technatezin]

@walter0bz (cont.) Back to my point of the inevitability of collapse and ANY monetary system. How will it happen? Because money is a merchantilist invention that is divorced from the actual PHYSICAL accounting of resources, energy and time it is in theory impossible to graft the use of money into ANY kind of RBE economic system.

The actual collapse of the system does not necessarily need to proceed in political revolution

youtube.com/watch?v=zQ2R-sRurr­E

War and cannibalism could also happen.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

IMO we face collapse because we expect growth (we created numerical games to match that), we had exponential growth while we could burn through huge 'energy lottery win' (fossil-fuels). we really did have exponential conditions.

If renewables could match, monetary expansion could continue. e.g. sell solar panels to cover every desert, build dyson sphere. breed more customers in space :)

[technatezin]

@walter0bz "If renewables could match, monetary expansion could continue."

No. monetary expansion only masks the problem because nothing can be sold if it doesn't in some way or another make the thing that is "sold" be exchanged for something that is scarcer (more valuable) than the item that is sold. In this case it is fiat money. If you increase the amount of fiat money in circulation then vendors would simply demand a higher amount of it which takes it out of circulation (makes it scarce).

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -as I understand,

monetary expansion allowed new resources/ technologies to be brought online. oil originally used for lighting, then revolution of Engine, petrochemicals, information age .. real advances that multiplied the value of land so new money was printed to measure. If these advances continue, money continues to expand. This was the "plus" side of fiat. The problem is, we've maxed out the resources, we can't get more effiecient faster than we lose energy (after Peak Oil)

[technatezin]

@walter0bz Any sort of social system even plain old slavocracy can have specialists engaged in technical research. You can pay some uneducated grunt with whip some paper or metal (gold, silver) to beat your slaves who aren't willing to pick fruits and cotton in the hot sun until they BECOME willing from the pain of the whip while you work on research like flying kite into a lightning storm.

Again, this is irrelevant to what an RBE system proposes.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

i understand what RBE proposes. It requires everyone to agree to share and agree on schemes. this is the bit I can't ever see being possible. RBE describes a very nice steady state if you could set it up, and I guess there might be aspects of its philosophy you can work into modern world (e.g, opensource software). We face shrinking carrying capacity. (oil depletion+maybe enviro damage past point of no return?). not the best conditions for peeps to get on :)

[walter0bz]

@technatezin - managed to get into very broad discussion on RBE from original points about education :)

i'll agree the modern world does try to dumb people down, its' something you have to resists, we can try to educate eachother.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz "managed to get into very broad discussion on RBE from original points about education :)"

Alright, then let's get back on topic.

Everything in the world requires at least some effort. There is nothing in the world (presently) that you could get entirely for free except suicidal death. Even then if you don't want a scary/painful death it would require help

Current schools and teachers remind me of this:

youtube.com/watch?v=5q9kYKtvYU­0

It's intellectual chest thumping not education

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

perhaps I was just lucky to go to a good school. I did actually enjoy some of it. I had some good teachers that really did encourage you to think, although it was mostly 'work' of course. Lets face it, there IS real technological progress going on as witnessed in my lifetime by the advancement from say bulky 640x480i CRT to 960x640 oled display in your pocket. This means there are smart people who are learning. I'm more inclined to believe, **not everyone is up to it**.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz I'm more of the opinion that the resources of society and it's organizational logistics is put into activities and institutions that are destructive and wasteful than to blame it on people being not up to it. Think of an army in a battlefield where they must be constantly on guard even at night in case of a night raid by the "enemy" and you'll see what I mean. Educational institutions could in theory be kept open virtually 24/7 with sleeping quarters included for students.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

e.g. at some point in the past, oil was a resource just for lighting. it wasn't know that it could replace horses (via internatl combustion engine) or increase food supply (it wasn't edible, but petrochemical industry figured out how to increase crop yields). real profit corresponded to real progress - abundance, not scarcity. e.g. cars are more 'abundant' than the horses they replaced. food is now more abundnant than in 1800. Fine till oil runs out.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

you CAN profit from abundance. If you find a new way to produce a replacement for something that is Scarce, you can increase supply and profit. e.g. at point where horses were 'scarce' transport, having enough land to keep a horse made you 'rich', then henry ford figured out how to make something better more abundant. Similarly now businesses who can figure out Teleworking can create new abundance bypassing commuting cost.

So monetary incentive *does* exist for true innovation.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

it really is a resource problem, oil is like an energy lottery win, it created conditions for massive progress. Consider renewables/recycling - compare human tech to nature. we are already surrounded by 'solar powered' 'nanotech' machines purely based on recycling - plants - vastly more sophisticated than anything we've engineered.. our machines are very crude by comparison. Its' wishful thinking that we can make a renewable civ that matches fossil-fueled one.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

'monetary/scarcer'.

in 1986, flight simulator required scarce cabinet full of electronics to make 3d graphics. then less scarce workstations made it more abundant for CAD.

then demand from consumers for games made 3d graphics massively abundant.

profit can come from abundance/progress

[technatezin]

@walter0bz Irrelevant problems. Demand tracking can be implemented in an RBE without reliance on a fiat currency system. Also, social organization in research and development can be implemented more effectively than now in our current system. Literally millions of people who are willing, talented and intelligent have no chance to participate in a system that favors the merchant social strata, but there are millions of stores and store keepers selling and haggling over items in various shops.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

I dont doubt that you could match market intelligence with an RBE. i would devise some sort of recursive voting system if I was tasked with setting it up.

What I DOUBT is that you can get everyone to agree to share, and everyone to agree on what the carrying capacity is. What is the difference between Luxury & Essential? Who can say how much fish/meat you should be allowed or should we ALL be vegetarian? massive carrying capacity difference.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

with mergers there is already the opportunity for many different suppliers to be brought under one trading unit. I think its' called 'vertical integration'. but could also be done by regions. countries/governments with state propery are one form of integration; households are another (e.g. families share many resources 'within' in a way that other aquaintances dont) .... was it you i agreed with the RBE /true equal altruism would require abolishing family unit :)

[walter0bz]

@technatezin - r.e. last posts, i was pointing out how true progress had been made in monetary conditions - new uses for new field. Who would have thought a phone would need (or could have) 3d graphics back in 1980? or 1900 ? and what defines need ? we survived just fine without 3d graphics in phones. Are they a WASTE of resources ? false demand created by advertizing ? or ongoing experiments where we've yet to find all the uses ?

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

without fossil fuels, the sustainable carrying capacity of the earth is 2billion. we need to roll back and re-forest. we've already destroyed too much. war and cannibalism are certainly on the cards on the way down. 4+billion extra people made by fossil-fuels won't just starve voluntarily.

getting back to Power: power was people speculating & positioning themselves to survive whats coming. The species is usually on the edge of the 'carrying capacity' which itself can fluctuate.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

for a purely peaceful world, we'd have to safely UNDER-estimate carrying capacity, i.e. leave spare resources. but not everyone agrees on it. Vegetarian or meat diet ? I much prefer very high protein diet , sadly i know this is impossible for everyone. Some people can't even imagine life without a Car ffs. some can. One thing VP calls for is global consensus on these issues...

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

Power & Money:

money , IMO , is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE as the venus project claims.

money measures power from other sources, e.g. USA is/was "rich" due to superior military. (hence ability to impose petrodollar). If it wasn't them it would have been Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia.

[technatezin]

@walter0bz "USA is/was "rich" due to superior military. (hence ability to impose petrodollar)."

No. An opponent in such a contest could simply wait out the nation with the superior military until the empire collapses from internal conflict. A mediocre military can simply engage in a delaying action campaign of insurgency attacks and spreading propaganda on "enemy" troops. Reading through history books you will see this again and again when empires collapse from imperial over stretch.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

Notice how I say "is/was". Nazis of course had superior military, but a larger alliance was assembled against them.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

why did money 'evolve' ? [1] because we trust it money more than we trust eachother. if we could trust peeps other side of the world or even in next town, we wouldn't need $. we could have kept our own barter arrangements. [2] because some peeps established positions of Power, we're forced to live by their rules. we can't just apply 'social change'. we can educate eachother and strategize how to avoid/bypass that power, but we can only get so far. how did they GET so powerful?

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

>>"entirely objective observer..." - wouldn't doubt the darwinian process. after all those humans think nothing of exterminating/enslaving other species routinely, and they evolved, its clear some will continue to try and out-evolve eachother. Its a grim world and I doubt it can ever be fixed

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -different people definitely have different aptitudes r.e.different types of learning, e.g no matter how hard someone trains or studies, not everyone can become a good scientist, musician or artist, just as not everyone can become an elite athlete or super strong. Different peoples brains are wired up 'a bit differently'. Autism for example is like a supercharged brain constantly overheating .

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

monetary incentive can lead to efficiency: for a factory owner, raw materials are a cost, wheras the price they sell is a profit - so they are incentivized to find the most efficient ways of producing things we want to hand over money for using the smallest amount of , or most abundant (cheap) materials. there is plenty of scope for technical advance in that. see smartphones as very clear example of progress. now better than desktop computers from some years back.

[walter0bz]

@technatezin -

software, how about Music or ART - to become an expert painter perhaps ... there's no shortcuts its' observation & practice. Mathematics for sure, similar to programming I think. science, engineering.. I dont think there are shortcuts. but tech could provide simulators. Of course teaching FACTS computers are great. but can they teach you to comprehend processes ? Construction toys are great for kids I think.

[walter0bz]

@Malthus0 -

IMO studying fundementals like maths/ natural sciences should be a winner, learn to think about how the world actually works then you can pick up details in specific fields as and when you need them ?

[yianki1020]

Are there any people in US-VIrginia who would like to keep in touch in regards to the advancements of the Venus Project??

We should try to contact each other to communicate developments, ask questions, and help others wrap their heads around this new social direction. It would be a great thing if we could organize small groups that do these things to help spread this message..

Thank you.

[dropbear22]

Do you think capitals makes what you say any more relevant?

[Obataladance]

Bad capitalists hates me as much as the fanatics uneducated followers of those selling fake promises...i dont care about the dumb down...youtube is known for having a very uneducated crowd in the net...I write here considering the fragility and lack of information most people have here but the insults and attacks coz my opinions doesnt really bother me..The guy who sells good bread at a good price, respecting the enviroment and not exploting anyone, even if a capitalist, i got my respect for him

[hmoob7]

You're an idiot. The reason that guy has good bread for a good price is BECAUSE he cheated/lied/stole in some way. Walmart has good prices prices because they have millions of slaves in China. But don't worry about that, their not your kids...right?

[Obataladance]

Sorry but i dont buy ever at WalMart...i always cared to who i leave my money, buying locally to peasants and small shops..reclycling everything out there...i got the money to buy new but i prefere second hand..EVERTHING !! I never i give my money to big chaines which are really the biggest exploters.. My bread i get from a friend of mine..she made it so my money dont go into the pocket of just big greedy exploter..u are free to allow yourself to be manipulated by these communitarians liars !

[NegativeNick]

He's talking about Consilience, Bridging together the natural and social scienes.

I highly recommend everyone check out E.O Wilson's book of the same title.

[shaqair]

great book

[zvezdag]

So true. A real guidance.

But "right" path is different for each person.

Find it.

[charbonelle]

From my understanding, I feel that the Venus Project is a proposal to develope a technologicaly advanced version of a subsistance economy but on a larger scale.

[Googolistic]

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

Albert Einstein

[DeeperBlueX16]

Scientists are interdiscliplinary

[murderrapelove]

Again, I apologise for the double posting, I think it may be an antispam filter i have installed on my firefox. My comments were meant as replies, can you delete the ones that appear as general comments? Thanks, and this wont happen again.

[gunsandbullhorns]

99.9% of people want to make the world better for everyone. It's just that the central crux of Fresco's vision is that technology will solve all our problems. I think that's a horribly dark vision that only one whose been sufficiently blinded by corporate media/academia would maintain.

He speaks of using conditioning to free us, when conditioning is the singular force enslaving us. His cure is just more of the disease.

[moety2]

Thats wrong, the idea is we save ourselves by changing ourselves and advanced technology that will be used to manage MORE things then it does now, which is not a far fetched idea will be a byproduct of that, not the cause. If we were to drop the most advance computers/machines from the future in today's world how we are now and with people in power that will exploit it like they do everything else will be meaningless. Thats why there will need to be a big change in how we do things.

[dropbear22]

whats your suggestion then?

[gunsandbullhorns]

I suggest we stop giving central planners the opportunity to socially-engineer us "for our own good". They always do a bad job. Sometimes their intentions are good, and sometimes their intentions are bad, but they ALWAYS screw things up infinitely more than they fix things.

I say, put some faith in liberty. Allow people to make their own choices about as many things as possible. We've been conditioned by media and school to believe that this doesn't work, but in fact it works beautifully.

[hmoob7]

And where do we base our choices from, moron? The media and school are certainly part of it.

[gunsandbullhorns]

hmoob—

You make no sense. Don't talk anymore.

[4soG]

haha

[moety2]

It's depressing reading the comments left or forums. We are so divided even when we agree there needs to be a change. You know what people, that's the way the people running the show like it. Let them debate, argue and fight amongst themselves even when they want the same thing. Divide and conquer is so much easier when the people divide themselves.

[Akerninja]

Control through chaos is their main plan they have been using since they first came into power. I agree moety we need to come together and not let peoples negative thoughts affect our positive motions. There is a positive and negative to everything. If people listen to fresco actually he advocates the abolishment of a central power and education of people to further our conscious evolution. None of us know Jacque personally why don't we sit down with him and discuss his views in a real debate?

[moety2]

Now that would be something I would be interested in.

[murderrapelove]

hey jacquefresco, can you delete my double post? I meant to reply to moety2, and my browser must have stuttered or something.

[macklen]

Besides, Alex Jones has got a point on this whole thing: it does sound like a NWO type religion. Watch his video about it. I'm not sitting around waiting for someone to tell me what to do, but unreal solutions only dilute the effort to find a real one. And I repeat, it is unreal BECAUSE it is ahead of its time.

[DarthKazi]

This is where Alex Jones is 100% wrong. He thinks a broken, immoral and illogical system can be tinkered with and fixed.

Something has to give and people like Jones think that holing yourself up in your bunker with your storable gruel, your guns and gold coins will save you.

What will save us, is circulating the truisms Mr. Fresco and REAL thinkers like Jordan Maxwell.

If you truly think what Fresco is saying is "New World Order", you are really deluded.

[macklen]

Nobody's 100% or 100% wrong. It is not that simple. Get the paradox?

Now, even if we did what Dr. Whatshisface here suggests, it would take decades and last time I checked, the NWO won a new stronghold in India through cheap attacks and propaganda. Did you see that? Do you see how they're kind of in a hurry? We should too.

[murderrapelove]

Look into eschatology. If you don't think the current system can be repaired, you're a lot more similar to the Jehova's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, etc then you'll soon admit.

Mr. Fresco thinks he's smart. Mr. Fresco doesn't understand nor appreciate complexity. He believes that the Nature vs. Nurture riddle has been solved by him, and the "obvious" answer is Nurture.

His entire belief system is based on common myths.

He is a fool, but people of like-mindedness will follow him.

[moety2]

Ok explain how this system with corruption and greed can be fixed without a complete overhaul? How can anyone that has spent years trying to make a positive change to the world in a way a lot of people agree with is a fool? To a lot of people his belief system is based on common sense. With concern to all people not just a few groups with money or power. Do you think the people in power want to fix the system? If they do, will they care for others around the world suffering? I think not.

[macklen]

I don't have a "next idea" but I'm not claiming in a video to have it either. My plan is simply to disbelieve everything I'm told by the media, to stay off credit and live within my means, to buy gold, to boycott corporations as much as possible, to run to the hills when the time for it comes and to survive by my own means. If in the meantime I come across a more realistic idea of how to effectively fight the system without resorting to watching a lot of "The Jetsons" cartoons I'll let you know.

[blackholesunbeam]

The battle, throughout history, has always been between men, and those who fancy themselves social planners.

All the worlds catastrophic evils are caused by men who fancy themselves social planners.

[murderrapelove]

good philosophies sir. And I'll ass that technology will never provide the path to freedom and happiness... only philosophy can.

[moety2]

You misunderstand, technology will be the byproduct not the cause to freedom and happiness. Is it naive to strive towards a better world for everyone? I don't think so. Is the task daunting? Hell yeah. I am no fool to think that everything he says will come to pass in the manner he believes. But what he says makes sense and I believe it is a step in the right direction.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Lao-tzu

[macklen]

Ok. I watched Zeitgeist and agreeg with it 100%. I've known for some time now about the banking elite, the money fraud, the scam of religion, the business of war. I agreed.

Then, I watched Addendum and went... WTF??

Somebody paid the director off, bigtime. The Venus Project is folly, not because its revolutionary, but because it's MANY MANY years ahead and the bastards behind the NWO are not taking anytime off.

Next idea, please!!!

[Akerninja]

Obviously it is ahead of its time. I just want to ask where is your "next idea, please!!!"? What Jacque is trying to do is get people to come together and form new concepts so we can move forward in our humanity. People that just sit around and wait for the next person with a good idea are naive. The only way to instill change is to do something yourself instead of waiting for the next idea. When our current systems collapse we can't have a bunch of people running around waiting for another idea

[gunsandbullhorns]

All the most brutal atrocities of the highest scale were perpetrated by men who fancy themselves social planners, and had access to centralized power.  I swear, look into it.

Jacque Fresco is a social planner who advocates a single global centralized control structure.

Don't trust any salesman that wont discuss the potential drawbacks/negatives/risks/side effects etc of his product...

[Akerninja]

I agree with you that we shouldn't jump into something without looking at what positives and negatives there are. I myself advocate a coming together of our humankind. I'm not sure how it will happen but I believe everyone is entitled to their perception of their life. I believe everyone has the right to an education and should not be bound by money to receive this education. I just want people to search for INNER TRUTH. Don't listen to jacque, don't listen to me. Find out who YOU are.

[gunsandbullhorns]

wise words sir! I'm with you all the way.

[BackspinII]

yep I agree. Fresco is not to be seen as the LEADER of a new movement but he points out very important things, that we should consider in our view of the world.

It's important to change and to abolish senseless things such as wars and fightings.

Frescos visions can perhaps be torches at the right way. But he and his plans aren't perfect. As he says himself. So let US try to form a better society. Start with yourself before marching behind some other. (sorry for my english ;) )

[rigorojas]

¿Multidisciplinario? Yo le llamo "economía universal" ("universal economics") y también me parece que es una buena profesión para el futuro. Definitivamente debemos evolucionar nuestra educación.

[AzoreanProud]

Agreed!

[seigneurvoland666]

this idea is nice but dangerous to our own well being.

[Akerninja]

How is it dangerous for our well-being to start working together to make this planet a place where all humans can thrive together and move towards enlightenment? We need to change our current systems as you can see they are starting to fail anyways as if they weren't from their inception.

[murderrapelove]

because all the fundamental premises of project venus are based on deliberate common misconception and over-simplification sponsored by corporate academia.

These are really very dangerously naive ideas. I would recommend that you all give a glance to Bertrand Russell's: The "Impact of Science on Society," and the Club of Rome's "Mankind at its Turning Point," to start.

You'll find that Fresco's ideas convenience many of the world's most evil people and their most terrifying agendas.

[moety2]

The difference between Jacque and those men is they manipulate, lie and at the end they will still be in power. Jacque does not fit that mold. He isn't some corporate tycoon or from a rich family or some politian trying to stay in power. His life's work is proof of his agenda. Now will there be those who will try to take advantage of this for their own good? Of course. Should we let the idea of a boogieman behind every corner on something positive detour us from trying? No

[Akerninja]

I agree with you and I don't at the same time. Yes they could prosper from the ideas set forth but that is if the majority of people are still uneducated. People need knowledge it is much more important than money. If we had no knowledge of how things work then what would money's use be? I'll agree that the possibility of the elite using these ideas for their benefit is a possibility in an uneducated ignorant society but we need to start enlightening people. I'd be happy to discuss more any time

[murderrapelove]

(cont.)I venture you'd agree with me if I was to make the argument that we need less knowledge and education, viz. conventional formal education, and more wisdom derived from direct, unfiltered, uncontrolled, observation of the world i.e. truth.

[murderrapelove]

The dinstinction between knowledge and wisdom is that the former can be transmitted between two individuals allowing room for manipulation and corruption, viz. propaganda, whereas the latter can only be derived from the raw source of all-experiential reality, viz. the natural underlying order. (cont.)

[HimmiJoe]

So many bigots who hate people with different ideas. No different from racism.

I have to watch Zeitgeist sometime, stumpled upon the Venus project by accident when surfing the web - this man has great ideas about changing society for the better.

[hokiefalcon]

GREAT GREAT MAN

[KushielsMercy]

I love this guy, I want his kind of world.

[AzoreanProud]

Fight for it

[philion7777777]

this guys bloody amazing. its like my brains just bit into a lemon.

[eladpat1]

Zetetics = science of research (gap analysis) mapping areas of knowledge to ID gaps/locate new sciences so whole new areas of knowledge can be opened/new problems identified and solved.

Space Beagle's hero is a generalist who saves all by using specialists of disparate sciences to solve new problems that none can handle alone. Title from Darwin's book, "Voyage of the Beagle" - the 'Space Beagle' being the first interstellar vehicle staffed by the world's greatest scientists/eggheads.

[georgebrazil420]

where the hell is scooby doo.

[eladpat1]

Check out "Voyage of the Space Beagle" by A. E. VanVogt. This sci-fi book is based on the science of Zetetics created by Joseph Tykociner.

Tykociner was an electrical engineer and I. D. Research Professor Emeritus of the University of Illinois, who also gave us 'talkies', i.e. motion pictures with sound, back in the 1920's.

[Aklipo]

great! people listen and react!