Paul Krugman on health care: it's a social responsibility.

[032125]

The pyramids were also sold a social responsibility. Pharaoh said "hey people, other countries build fantastic crypts for their overlords, ergo you should too" and then all the happy slaves got right to work. Little known fact. Or maybe it was a jobs program. Or they were boosting aggregate demand for mud and straw. Yeah, that's it.

I dunno. I'm making this shit up as I go along, to morally justify slavery; much like Mr Krugman.

[gunsnroses2020]

Is this the same Krugman than led the intellectual fight to stimulate a housing bubble (atleast 6 times in 2001)? The same Krugman that lead the charge to borrow and spend ("stimulate") trillions that registered barely a bump in the GDP? The same Krugman that said prices can only go higher and there would be no crash? The same Krugman who says inflation is good for the middle class? No thanks. I vote for Austrian economists and Ron Paul. I am done with this clown.

[jessemaurais]

@gunsnroses2020 Actually, GDP growth rate is back to it's 10 year average.

wolframalpha(.)com/input/?i=gd­p+united+states+from+2000

[032125]

@jessemaurais Actually, GDP is a bullshit aggregate that is easily manipulated. PPR (Private Product Remaining ) is better, if you insist on vulgar aggregates to describe complex phenomena.

[jessemaurais]

I fucking love funny diagrams!

[HardCoreProgrammer1]

Krugman..be my english teacher..please

[PissedFechtmeister]

Krugman somehow forgets to mention income tax. In England, for example, you can expect to pay about 20-40% of your income in income tax and national insurance. In the US the average income tax rate is about 12%. So if you want your free health care you're going to have to pay for it.

[SomeUsefulIdiot]

It would do Mr. Krugman well to read Ayn Rand

[jessemaurais]

@SomeUsefulIdiot It would have done Ayn Rand well to read an economics textbook.

[SomeUsefulIdiot]

@jessemaurais

Yea so she could have read Keynes...that's worked out so well

[jessemaurais]

@SomeUsefulIdiot At least she would have known what the argument was, instead of making shit up, which is pretty much what she does.

[SomeUsefulIdiot]

@jessemaurais

Yea, just like what you're doing here. Imbecile

[jessemaurais]

@SomeUsefulIdiot Considering my last statement, you're either claiming that I don't know what Ayn Rand's argument was, or that my claim that she made shit up was itself a case of making something up. Neither it the case.

The fact is that I used to be a fan of Rand's and I had read all of her non fiction and most of her fiction. And when I read all of that I proceeded to read the works of the people she criticized. What I found is that most of what she said wasn't true. i.e. She made shit up.

[gunsnroses2020]

@jessemaurais Being a believer in free markets and sound money (which is most of Ayn Rand's teachings) I think you don't understand the principle behind laissez-faire. What specific arguments of her are made up? I am interested to know. Note that I am not looking for a fight as most youtubers engage in. Just honestly interested in your opinion. Peace.

[jessemaurais]

@gunsnroses2020 Most of my problems with Ayn Rand began when I read the works of Kant and others whom she criticised in her own works. She grossly misrepresented the opinions of other philosophers. If anything, she owes a lot to them, and Kant in particular, because some of her arguments bear a striking resemblance to his. I'd go so far as to say it was plagiarism. If I still had her books on my shelf I'd grab the page numbers for you, but I got rid of them long ago.

[jessemaurais]

@jessemaurais I also became more well read in economics. I'm not an expert by any means, but I wanted to have a fairly general understanding of the topic. One of her opinions, which seems to be quite a popular one these days, is that money should either be gold or directly convertible to gold. But there is a good reason why most countries don't use a gold standard any more. Things like this lead me to believe she really didn't know economics that well. Word limit prohibits elaboration.

[AmadeusStatisitician]

This guy is a statist pig

[EikC]

@AmadeusStatisitician

And you can use big words.

[islandmuffin]

The peer-reviewed research was published in May 2010 issue of the Econ Journal Watch (EJW), edited by Daniel B. Klein.

Seven Nobel laureates are members of the EJW Advisory Council

[razerfish]

He's right about one thing, that it's a moral issue. But he draws the wrong conclusion. The government should not be able to force you to subsidize someone else's care, nor should anyone think they have the right to someone else's labor without their consent. It's immoral. Krugman should advocate choice and liberty and not these tired Keynesian ideas that don't work.

[eatandtravel]

@razerfish

We are BROKE. No can do.

[2nantucket]

Love this guy.

[dedebiren]

Social responsibility, my ass. Take responsibility for yourself, because the government really could give a crap about you!! Wake up!

[Kansasgrandmother]

Yeah, my son-in-law is from Finland. He won't live there, the Gov controls all your choices.

Notice I said he's FROM Finland. He voted with his feet. He doesnt have Health Ins here, but he knows he will get top notch Medical Care in the U.S.

One can always recover from a medical debt, but one cannot recover if the Medical Care is substandard and you DIE.

[basfranken]

There is something in between you know. We (in Holland) have a mix between private an public health care. You can choose you're insurance company who is not allowed to refuse you for basic health insurance... Then you can get additional insurance if you want. This provides good health care for everybody with some healthy competition and the option to make choices. We have no real waiting lists, no medical bankrupcies, an a longer life expectancy... It can work..

[Hyvaerinen]

katiatomsk ??? WHAT ???

Right here in Finland, socialized health care works. "Long waits" - excuse me what? Expensive meds - sorry, did I hear you right? "A broke government" - oh yeah, that's the U.S. system. "Dignity taken away" - If all have no opportunity to health care, there's no dignity or respect for such society.

[katiatomsk]

I have seen socialized health care first hand. If you want dignity taken away for patients, long waits for care, doctors who don't really care if you live or die, life saving meds unavailable because of cost, needed procedures taking months to get, medical test being unavailable, withholding of medical procedures because of age, a broke government from the cost, ect. ect.

Then you want social medicine. History will reveal the truth. Social medicine is bad, it doesn't promote healthy people.

[kevinwayte]

So corporate medicine isn't bad?? You get cancer tomorrow...and you hope that an insurance company will foot the eventual $500,000 bill ??

Everything you listed as "bad" is uncommon. It happens, yes...but it's less than 5% of the time. Everybody getting the procedures they need DOES promote healthy people...thus the longer lifespans in those countries as compared to the USA. Of course there is no wait in the USA - because there is no LINEUP !! Only the approved or cash-in-hand are helped

[katiatomsk]

kevinwayte: I have a friend who did get cancer and our state did pay to cure him for almost $200,000. He was "terminal" by the doctors standards, but he was cured with NO money out of his pocket AND NO insurance. Your statement is WRONG.

But, on Obama Care, my friend would have been "RATIONED" out of getting the treatment he needed because he is an older man. Obama Care would have given him a pain pill, by Obama's own admission.

My friend lives because we do NOT have social health care.

[jcassens]

So, the state paid for your friend's care, but he lives because we don't have social health care? Let's look at that again, because it's a truly stunning contradiction. Your friend was saved by the government paying for his healthcare, but if we had government paid healthcare, he'd be dead.

The mind reels at what assertion you might make next! Maybe something like "I woke up this morning because my alarm clock went off, but if I had an alarm clock, I'd sleep in."

[katiatomsk]

There is a big difference between the state paying for it's citizens to get health care and the US government paying for everyone's health care. In the USA we still have State's rights. The US government taking over everyone's health care is crushing States Rights.

Each state has a right to care for it's citizens how ever it wants. If you don't like that state's care, move.

Go stand in line at your regional passport office and think "This is how health care will be".

[mwells219]

keep fucking that chicken.

[healthmusic]

Good going Paul, those are very appropriate words. I am for HR-676, single-payer in USA. A mild disability creates severe difficulty competing in narrowed job market for jobs living wage and have health insurance. I have Aspergers Syndrome, a mild form of autism. A-For-Da-Ble Health' will save our economy,

it is in the best interest of everybody, if every job moves out of the country,

than (tell me) whose gonna pay the medical fee?

[travelfar22]

The MAJORITY of Americans want Single-Payer like Canada

and Nader is for it! Relying on the health care "industry" as

it is now, assures you'll be considered a mere NUMBER!

18,000 Americans WILL DIE next year who lack access

to health care with our present health care "industry"!

47 Million Americans HAVE NO health care!

We The People want Single-Payer like Canada!

[dragonlancefire]

I will say this as a libertarian I rather spend my money on socialized healthcare than the Iraq War.

[killlalaland]

@dragonlancefire ditto

[LogicalFlawDetector]

@dragonlancefire

You are not a libertarian. Happy dreaming.

[optionqb]

Besides being unconstitutional, a federal, tax-payer funded health insurance program will put more upward pressure oon health care costs. So, you're gonna take money from upper and middle income families to redistribute it to low-income families. You'll increase -drastically- the demand for health care, driving up the prices even more. Moreover, when health care costs rise, you'll have to take more and more and more - over time- to keep meeting them. Karl Marx must be smiling in his grave.

[carlosvalenciatj]

No, it wont rise since costs for health care, are government controlled and there not allowed to rise up. Look up all of Western Europe, all of latinamerica, China, Russia, and an endless list of countries that have socialized health care and that hasnt happened at all

[timmyblaze]

It's funny....all the people who already have healthcare could care less about their fellow man.

So basically, no healthcare is better than socialized healthcare? How are you supposed to explain that to all the people without it? I'm sure you aren't as good of a con artist as Karl Rover is.....

I'd much rather dump billions of dollars into bettering the people of America with my tax dollars, than sending to Iraq. And then Iran if McSame is president....

[wrc21353]

How stupid is this man? I will guarantee more people will die if gov't runs healthcare than die right now because they can't afford it. Gov't programs don't work. But this rich guy isn't worried about problems that will happen with socialized health care because he has the money to go get it somewhere else.

[CenterLeftLiberal]

Yeah, that's what's happening in Norway and Sweden; they don't have longer, healthier lives than we do... no they die at 50... oh wait, everybody there gets all the health care they need and they life longer than us

[Sivels]

Yeah, but they won't need it since Swedes kill themselves b4 they need medical attention. Long live the state!

[LogicalFlawDetector]

@CenterLeftLiberal

Longevity is not a measure of the quality of health care. It probably has more to do with the number of trips to McDonalds.

[mgallant01]

@CenterLeftLiberal right...and people are STILL NOT FLOCKING to these Socialst shit piles - they want to come HERE to the USA.

[Apmhflick]

Typical Universal healthcare propaganda. Krugman says that it's a moral issue and never discusses the real facts and numbers besides a few "shock statistics" that worry the uneducated. If he is a "quantitative guy," he should know that France is in danger of not meeting the requirements of the euro b/c of their Univ. healthcare. Norway's gas is $7 a gallon, a pint of beer $12, and one frozen pizza is $16. These people let the utopian idea of univ. coverage blind them to its detrimental effects.

[Jocke1776]

Hey you fucking socialistic shit of americans! Traitors to freedom, you make me sick. Is this what is left of the noblest experament in human history? Insecure, ignorant, big government-loving, irresponsible, freedom-hating people? It's so sad, freedom is gone already. LET'S ENSLAVE THE DOCTORS NOW! Tomorrow, government takeover of all universities! Higher taxes! More welfare! No immigration! No free trade! Burn the constitution!

[CenterLeftLiberal]

As usual Krugman is correct and in agreement with most economists and social scientists. Even most Americans, 62%, now favor a universal single payer system according to an AP poll.

Health care simply is a basic human right, which is why all prisoners in the U.S. receive it. Yet, this basic human right has not been extended to millions of non-institutionalized Americans.

[prrolg]

If healthcare is a basic human right are you providing it then? If you aren't who should?

[CenterLeftLiberal]

Well, who provides basic rights, such as property rights, protection from crime, freedom of speech, law & order... Oh, right, that institution representative of the nation's overall population: the government! Works in all those countries, which accroding to the World Health Organization, have better systems than we do.

[mpower9]

Commenters are talking about different things. Paul Krugman is discussing the quality of our health care system, not the skill of individual practitioners or institutions. In the US, we pay substantially more per captia than any other developed country, but our health outcomes are inferion by most public health measures. For the last 60+ years, the "free market" system has failed to deliver basic health care to all our people. Enough! Time to try something different.

[JBNV123]

@mpower9 We don't have a free market system, a great read is "Who Killed Health Care" by Herzlinger. Then take a look at the Swiss system,their health insurance admin costs are lower than the US gov administering Medicaid and Medicare, and they are all private insurance companies. They have a system much closer to a free market. They also have universal healthcare by giving people money to buy their own health insurance. If we go single payer or socialized, values are forced upon us.

[svvmichael1]

@JBNV123 lets compare a country that is all white, and all one culture, and has only 7 million people to one that has "diversity" and class/racial hatred ( especially directed at whites) and has 305 million. Think that is apples and oranges? While we are at it lets compare the accounts receivable of a mom and pop sandwich shop in Topeka, KS to ALL the Subway restaurants in the world. Does that sound like a good comparison? Buh-bye.

[kdogg132]

@mpower9 Your data is very flawed.

[Sexisttroll]

@mpower9 on what grounds do you argue that we've had free market? healthcare is one of the most regulated industries in the whole economy...

[etubbs12]

Why do people come from all over the world to have their health care needs taken care of in the US? Why do Canadians wait months (and often die waiting) for health care? Why is it better to make everyone suffer because some people are suffering? What the hell kind of econimist is Paul Krugman?

[rutanfaner]

Where do you get your facts? Not just anybody comes here to get healthcare. It's the rich who come here. Canadians, Brits, Norwegians, etc overwhelmingly prefer their system to ours, and enjoy less... yes less medical costs with cumulatively higher standards of living and longer life expectancies.

[etubbs12]

If someone can afford to come here for health care they do because the quality of care is the best in the world. So I guess the solution is to let the government take it over so we can all have poor health care. Then everything will be "fair" we can all suffer together. Those who work and create wealth and jobs for others should receive the same health care as the vagrant drug addict living on the street, because health care is a "right".

[rutanfaner]

Again... You're claims are unsubstantiated. Socialized medicine doesn't lower healthcare quality. I personally know a leukemia patient whose medical bills just broke $2-mill. (Canadian's have a lower mortality rate than insured Americans for the same disease.) Your comments also classify the 42-mill uninsured Americans (10-mill kids) as "the vagrant drug addict." Have you even been out of the US? Where do you get for 'facts?'

[etubbs12]

Where I'm sure we differ is that I believe we should all have the right to live for our own sake. It seems those pushing for socialized medical care think they have the "right" to determine what is best for others.

[rutanfaner]

How do the 18,000 who die yearly from inadequate health insurance live for their own sake? Taxes pay for police, fire department, potable water, sanitary waste, etc. By your rationale, these services interfere with choice. The current system leaves none. Your employer determines your insurer, & your insurer determines your provider. Where we differ is that I don't push erroneous propaganda to make my point & every country with higher living standards also has socialized medicine (FACT!)

[etubbs12]

Not only have I traveled to many areas of the world, I have used the Canadian health care system. If you really want the facts, why don't you try reading some research that supports opposition to socialized medicine, such as "Lives at Risk: Single-Payer National Health Insurance around the World" by John Goodman? The FACT is no government in history has ever provided anything as efficiently as the free market.

[rutanfaner]

Thanks for the ref. Note however, Goodman is President of NCPA a rightwing spin tank promoting "low taxes, limited gov. & strong defense." This is hardly a reliable source. Is this where you get your facts? Also you latest erroneous fact is just as easily debunked. Healthcare overhead costs: US = 31% ($5775/capita ) Canada = 16.7% ($1389). New England Journal of Medicine. Socialized medicine is overwhelmingly preferred in higher living standard nations. Easily verifiable.

[etubbs12]

I guess if you want to use labels we could call Krugman and leftwing liberal anti-Semite but that's not really productive is it? Just because someone's facts don't support your point of view doesn't mean they aren't facts. There are plenty of facts supporting a free market based medical system. There is not enough space here to debate the issue properly.

[rutanfaner]

Yet you did it anyway. So I thank you for the reference & intend to check it out, but I cut/paste Mr. Goodman's mission statement from his web page as a reason why I can't take him as an honest broker and your response is an ad hominid attack. Labeling a Jew an anti-Semite for his speculation on the rise of mid-eastern anti-Semitism of all things. I'll let this latest dose of idiocy rebut itself.

[etubbs12]

Typical. You miss the point.  Labels aren't productive. Dismissing someone as not credible because of a label you have applied rather than based on their argument is intellectual prejudice. But I'm an idiot and you're REALLY smart, so you already know that.

[rutanfaner]

You're clearly no idiot, and I'm sorry I inferred so. But your reference that among other things receives millions from Exxon to spin the climate research of highly respected scientists such as NASA Goddard's SI is by no definition "research." There's a method of research that brought us out of the dark ages, and anyone educated in science should know better. So far you've presented Soc. Med. as doom & gloom & ignored that all higher scoring nations aren't glad they do.

[rutanfaner]

Also. You missed the point. I provided Mr. Goodman's label. You provided an ad hominid attack that under scrutiny could hardly hold water.

[Jimuardo]

I have to agree with rutanfaner about all this, but give John Goodman his due: he was great in King Ralph.

[gregonamus]

Bravo rutanfaner! Excellent points!

[DrDon5]

Hate has nothing to do with it, Willat. Simple economics shows that the only equitable way to deal with human risk is to create as large a risk pool as possible to deal with it. That's why we all share the cost of fire and police protection and a standing army, which Republicans support wholeheartedly. It's no different with health care. We're the only developed country in the world that doesn't realize the wisdom of sharing the risk of failing health, which is inevitable for each of us.

[Canada80]

Well said.

[CenterLeftLiberal]

Excellent argument!

[gunsnroses2020]

@DrDon5 You are wrong.Fire and police protection is locally funded,not federally mandated.If you are not satisfied with the way your community handles these services,there are thousand other counties you can move to.No such choice with single payer.You screw up,you screw it up for everyone.Why not let the states decide whether or not to implement single payer or totally kick the govt out of healthcare and unleash free enterprise? Then Americans can vote with their feet among 50 states.

[DrDon5]

@gunsnroses2020 Well taken. Letting the states decide is a good way to start to reform our broken health care system. There is plenty of evidence worldwide that publicly financed health insurance is the way to provide everyone access to quality health care at less cost. There is not a single example of a free market system that does so. But why not let the states decide. I'm with you.

[gunsnroses2020]

@DrDon5 Thanks a lot for your reply.I do believe we have never had a real free market system in healthcare America (The Swiss are closer to a free market than the US).In fact, it is one of the most regulated sectors of the economy.Most regulations cater to the benefit of Big-insurance,Big-pharma & Big-healthcare.Healthcare is a service (pay direct fees for a doctor's services or via insurance).Competition brings down costs in every other service & I believe it will be the same with healthcare.

[DrDon5]

@gunsnroses2020 I agree that competition is helpful for bringing down costs and improving quality. However, health care is not a commodity like others. It is a matter of life and death. You can't shop for health care from the back of an ambulance, and you don't want the cheapest health care. You want the best, right now. The only way to deal with the risk is by pooling it via insurance. And the cheapest, most equitable insurance includes everyone. So public insurance, private care is the best.

[gunsnroses2020]

@DrDon5 Well,I still believe healthcare is fundamentally a product like anything else on the market.It is in an exchange of services.The risks are much higher,so insurance is legitimate & necessary(you don't have to buy from the back of the ambulance,just as you don't buy fire insurance after your house is on fire).I feel the market is better at pricing products relative to quality.Buying the best bang for the buck is not the same as buying the cheapest.Anyway I guess we can agree to disagree :)

[onecarenowla]

Excuse me? Willat? Where did you hear any hate coming from Paul Krugman? Time for a check up, dude. Single payer is coming inspite of the Republicans and the Insurance Companies and Drug Companies, because it is the morally right thing to do.

[willat]

Maybe he should just get up there and say "I hate America, I hate Republicans!" Why does he have to beat around the bush and try to mislead people? All he really wants is other people to hate like he does.