What was the European Marshall Plan? 1

[historatia]

Why hide this comment? The historical facts bear it out. What is missing from the commentaries thus far is that the Marshall Plan superceded the vicious Morgenthau Starvation Plan through which Eisenhower starved the German civilians, engendering a 10x normal death rate amongst the children and a 4x amongst adults, thereby encouraging Germans in the western sectors to consider the communist alternative more favourably.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Haven't hidden a thing. Apparently it is something that happens when a comment gets too many negative notices. Eisenhower imposed nothing. The Morgenthau Plan was imposed by Washington. Most of the high death rate was due to living on a very poor diet in the months prior to the war's end.

[LottoWinner999]

The Fucking Fairys AKA Waffen SS are Pussys +they wore pink panities with red-lace Swastikas on them. At Battle of the Bulge US Army of GI Joes crushed Waffen SS without US Airpower. GI Joe outfought the refitted + rested Waffen SS Division + new Tiger Tanks + the US Army kicked thier asses out Ardennes. Germans Troops could not compare to the US Soldier because he fought for freedom Hitlers murdering thugs. Germany the most deated nation in military history of the world.

[LottoWinner999]

I know U R proud yo Gramps knew the Fuhrer + was close to Fritz Kuhn. Every know your Daddy gave Fritz Kuhn a blow job but he wen the a little furher + he hummed the Der Valkeries while blowing his prick @ same time. But Nazi assholes like U don't realize ur precious Fuhrer would not acceptt Spielbergs Theme which proves Nazsi have lowered ur standards 2 the absolute of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I feel sorry the U ended a fucked up Naz Assholei N the best years of ur life.

[LottoWinner999]

U Nazi R failures it was a Jewish Composer + Steven Spielberg who wrote the Star Wars Theme. U fucking Nazi R lame ass Muthafucking losers. Ask a German when U need an excuse as to why they lost WW2. Germans have 1001 excuse and what ifs as to why they lost WW2. However the reason they lost is because Germans R Born Losers and its in their blut aka blood. When it comes to stupidity no one tops Germans plus Krauts R the most defeated nation in military history of the world!

[LottoWinner999]

Lets put it this way U Nazi vermin scumbags, all Germans murdered jews, gay people + any 1 who resited Hitler + his jerk-off scumbags like U. German POWS had the same food + medical the US soldiers + yet Germans murdered USA POWS. German children were taught to turn in their parents in + its obvious ur 1 of them. USA saved Germany + we executed bad Germans after giving a court martial trial + at Nuremburg to. U Krauts cannot be trusted + that why we occupy Germany to this day. FU LOL!

[LottoWinner999]

Every Nazi hanged in Germany had a fair trial inlcuding Historatia Daddy who worked at Auscwitz murdering Jews, Russians, Poles + any 1 who resisited Hitler of course Historatia is upset they hanged his Daddy. U need some therapy cuz U hate every that defeated Germany. When it to comes hanging Nazi's Brits were excellent. On Youtube Watch the movie The Last Hangman about Albert PierpointThe Queen Royal Hangman who hanged over 1,900 Nazi Scumbags + made enough to open a Pub called the Hangman!

[historatia]

7. The "cost" of the plan as it affected Germany was for "technical assistance' as well as "economic assistance", which, when you look at the devil in the details was funding of US consulting firms to strip German companies of their assets and install US methods of management of what were now "their" assets, and funding to repayable debts that the Germans repaid later. Go "trace" the money.

[historatia]

5. ... that were used by allied soldiers to trade for sex with mothers of young babies, and the refusal of the Canadians to follow the Eisenhower/Morgenthau policy directive after a few months.

6. An even greater problem is that a large proportion of the "food aid" was then confiscated by the all to many CORRUPT US military officers who then, in the early years sold it into the BLACK market, making for themselves huge fortunes on which to retire in comfort 'stateside'.

[historatia]

4. the Marshall Plan is given the US propaganda spin that it was done as a matter of US generosity for the defeated Germans, although with the continuation of the hangings of German civilians as part of the de-nazification program the vengeance would continue. (Over 8,000 were hanged by the US forces in the first two years of the program. That propaganda spin is a sick corruption of the facts for the Germans (like me) that lived through it. The godsend was the Canadian chocolate rations ...

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Were there any hangings of non-war criminals? In fact many convicted war criminals were later released. By the time the Marshall Plan was being implemented, any vengeance against Nazis was dispensed with. They even released the Malmedy criminals. Seems like your version is a bit of spin. Was there an element--a strong element--of self interest involved? Sure, but I don't think anyone ever denied that.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus The US congressional investigation report on the Malmedy incident is VERY instructive reading. The SS 12 Div Hitlerjugend was the first mission with kids 18 and 19 in their first action, The US prisoners panicked and "bolted to make a run for it. The Germans boys opened up in the runners. The supposed "headshot" evidence was fabricated. Evidence of survivors was suppressed, The men collected for the trial (in Dachau) were not even those who were in the prisoner guard patrol.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Have to take the Congressional investigation with a grain of salt as there was a lot of political opposition to prosecuting German offenses by that point...much of it led by Joe McCarthy. The GIs bolted after the SS started killing people...including the senior medical officer.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus I will grant you that a grain of salt is necessary. I take NOTHING from the political world without picking through it with care. Its when you learn that the majority of the "Marshall Plan" money was in fact given to pro-western national puppet gov'ts to purchase US military suppllies to fight the then communist rebellions (like in Greece) and thus came right back to the US as revenues/profits for wealthy shareholders that you become suspicious....

[historatia]

@saulpaulus .... Then when you stumble on the German police reports made from the records of the corruption investigations which showed the massive diversion of food aid by senior US Officers aid into the black markets and the US Military Command ORDERS to the German police to STOP the investigation that you begin to understand what the "Marshall Plan" really was.

[LottoWinner999]

@historatia Hey Nazi Scumbag tell them how your Daddy AKA Hitlers Helper worked at Auschwitz as murderer. Those soldiers were told to murder the Americans and Historatia AKA Hitlers Helper is just a Nazi Fucking Asswipe dishing out hit for Americans who convicted and hanged his Daddy for Nazi War Crimes and being s staunch Hitlers Helper!

[historatia]

@saulpaulus There's no Mylai story there my friend. But there is an Abu Graib. The Congressional Committee received first hand the medical testimony of US doctors who explained the tortures used to gain the false confession including repeated kicking in groin to make permanently infertile some of the men who were not even there. Their US lawyer (Bennett) went to the wall to get the Congressional investigation and the Committee order the releases, with apologies as a miscarriage.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia This was murder. Unfortunately for this tissue of lies, US GIs survived. BTW, the massacre at Hue which took place at the same time as My Lai was far worse and the VC and NVA were given medals for it.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus The only released of those charged with the malmedy matter those still alive. Of

The US handling of the occupation is completely whitewashed in US hollywoodized propaganda. You will find a SINGLE line in the Wiki discussion of the "malmedy" matte where it says "These figures are, howeverm not corroborated by the report of the United States Senate subcommittee that late inquired into the subsequent trial ... I read the ENTIRE subcommittee report. ....

[historatia]

@saulpaulus Go to the wiki and you will see the reference to the Senate sub-committee.. Under it is a table of the "massacres". Note: Malmedy is NOT among them. Why? because when the suppressed evidence was finally brought it in the survivors agreed that the the prisoners bolted BEFORE any killing began. It started whe two prisoner grabbed the guns from two of the prisoner guard patrol. The story of the "shots in the head" was fabricated. Also note the reference under the heading "Retaliation".

[saulpaulus]

@historatia They bolted when it was obvious that they would be murdered.

[LottoWinner999]

@Historatia AKA Hitlers Helper and Nazi, Make sure U tell every one your Dad was a convicted Nazi War Criminal who worked at Auschwitz murdering Jews, Poles, Russian and who ever the Fuhrer told them to hate. Historatia are those chocolate bars the Canadian gave U from American aid. Your a scumbag Nazi its pathetic and the only reason your alive is because of the Marshall Plan that rebuilt Germany but we should shot all the Nazi including your Daddy AKA Hitlers Helper. Why do U hate Americans?

[historatia]

2. For the older Germans whose children got ricketts and other starvation related diseases, and older geneations that died from the secondary effects of induced starvation the JCS 1067 that Truman referred to as the Morgenthau Plan. represented a completely unwarranted vengeance on civilians.

3. The Marshall Plan is meaningless except as understood in the context of the Eisenhower Starvation and slave labour plan. 

[historatia]

1. What is missing from the commentaries thus far is that the Marshall Plan superceded the vicious Morgenthau Starvation Plan through which Eisenhower starved the German civilians, engendering a 10x normal death rate amongst the children and a 4x amongst adults, thereby encouraging Germans in the western sectors to consider the communist alternative more favourably.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia The plan had nothing to do with Eisnhower except to the extent that he was ordered to implement. It was never wholly implemented. The idea of the plan was to punish Germany for forcing war on Europe and for committing unparalleled crimes against humanity. By 1946, it was a dead letter as public pressure & concern over the spread of communism forced a change in policy.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus The claim that none were executed is completely false. The Dachay trial was out of control from the beginning. Those that were hanged for the supposed massacre at Malmedy (11) men had the records of their hangings altered to connect to other alleged incidents.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus That the Plan was not of Eisenhower's invention is correct EXCEPT for the most vicious part of it all which was the decision to call POW's "DNF"s (disarmed enemy forces) instead and NOT treat them with the POW Geneva covention standards. The sending of the DNF's to France for forced labour where HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of young Germans were then WORKED TO DEATH, and to keep HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS in the Rheinwiesen camps to be STARVED TO DEATH was Eisenhower's. ...

[saulpaulus]

@historatia No more than 50,000 died and it was largely due to a severe shortage of food in Europe at the time.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus No more than 50,000 died? You should try reading the American military historians who acknowledged the truth of the "Other Losses" book by James Baque, or speak to the now old people in the area of Dusseldorf who were in the forces labour campts that gathered and burried the dead, or the LIST OF NAMES in the blue volumes in documentation centres in Cologne and Berlin, or the Red Cross missing persons estimates for those known to have been in the camps.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia I have & they have acknowledged that he brought to light some terrible treatment of internees but that his numbers were wildly exaggerated. Most of the numbers he claims were Volksturm & Hitler Youth who were released w/out record. The 50k # was the most that could have died & they were in large measure due to lack of food & their pre-existent poor condition all of which can be attributed to the war their Fuhrer started.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus ..To shoot and kill women throwing scaps of food over the barbwire fences to young men being deliberately starved, THAT was Eisenhower. Go read Justice Jackson's letter to Eisenhower suggesting that he was committing a major war crime. 98% of the German held US POW's go home alive. the Germans who were POW's before it ended were lucky. The "Disarmed Enemy Forces" weren't. AFTER the war they were killed off. More died in Eisenhower's camps than in battle on the Western Front.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Over 800k died in battle. About 50k at most died in the camps. There was some mistreatment but it pales in comparison with Nazi abuses.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus American's whitewash their own history. The Vietnamese lost 3,400,000 dead in its long war for independence most involving US actions. The US sought to replace France as the colonial power. Even McNamara finally admitted (watch the vid) that it wasn't about communism. Huge numbers were civilians that died from Bombings. The US engaged in a WAR AGAINST HUMANITY. The US lost, but where are the war crimes tribunals? the reparations to the Vietnamese, the starvation of Americans. ...

[historatia]

@saulpaulus ... nor did Germany alone force a war on Europe, . You should read a little history of the incredible STUPIDITY of the US led Treaty of Versailles, and its aftermath and know a little more about power poltiics of empire. Can you imagine Los Angeles and southern California being handed to Mexico? No? Then think of Danzig, 98% German! or the Sudetenland 94% German, both German into antiquity! Punish the Germans? Pure idiocy, pure American ...

[historatia]

@LottoWinner999 That you really just don't understand is shown by your gullibility to believe, "hook line and and sinker" and "uncritically" all of the press release propaganda fed into you. The US "GAVE" democracy and a "decent" living ? The Germans "murdered" and you have a roll of 6 million Jewish names in a telephone book of the dead? You're a propagandizing nitwit who imagines the life of others as a string of Sesame Street cartoons. Go watch "treehouse" and keep away from adult things.

[historatia]

@LottoWinner999 The Americans rode into Europe in 1916 and then agasin in 1942 AFTER the European powers had exhausted themselves with Germany having been victorious in the east (Brest Litovsk) and parlayed its growing strength into the position of the master of Europe that then DESTROYED the Balance of Power and actually HELPED the establishment of Communism in Russia by lifting the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. Without that, the agony of Europe in the 20th Century would not have been.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Know a lot of history. The Treaty of Versailles was a product of EUROPEAN nationalism and it was the barbarity of the Brest-Litovsk treaty that inspired it. Danzig was a Polish fief going back well into the Middle Ages and Slavs settled in Sudetenland long before Germans did. Any supposed oppression of Germans in these places is a poor joke compared with how the Nazis treated the populations of cemtral and eastern Europe.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus You know  NOTHING of European History. Danzig was not never a "fief". Go read the Treaty of Wehlau and Bromberg, -- originals in the vatican. Royal Prussia had its own legislature, laws in German and latin, money and heritary inheritance, commercial relationships to the Hansa states. It was in a "personal union" with the Polish King, and NEVER a fief, despite the Poles best efforts. (In reverse, the best of historic Warsaw was created by Dresden's Asxon King Alfred the Strong.)

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Know plenty of European history and it was a fief. In fact, most all of historic East Prussia had been disputed between Teutons and Slavs for centuries. At best, Germany's historic claims to Danzig and Sudetenland were disputed & were pretenses for Hitler's real aim: lebensraum. That was proved when he invaded Czechoslovakia & Poland.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus Brest Litovsk LIBERATED the Ukrainians, Galicians, Belarussians, Lithuanians, Latvians from the Russian communist control and made the independent STATES. The stupidity of lifting it with the Armistice gave the Russian communists the chance to stay in power, and then win their war against the invading foreigners, including the US in an alliance with Japan from the Pacific side. It took over 70 for that US created damage to be undone.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Brest Litovsk provided justification for the Allies to do what they did at Versailles. The haphazard nature of the interventions was such that the Communists would have won anyway.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus you know even LESS about the slavs and the middle ages. Go read Alex Schenker, professor emeritus on ancient slavic language and culture. He's Polish but at Princeton university. You might learn a little and not embarrass yourself.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Know plenty about the Slavs and the Middle Ages...enough to know that all of the territory you speak of was disputed throughout the Middle Ages.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia Germany invaded Poland, not just Danzig. It also invaded territories both east and west that were never German. Germany forced war on Europe and its supposed grievances were the product of the spirit of nationalistic revanchism that it helped to create.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus ... Now after a long haul back with re-unification, Europe has finally crawled out from under the American and Soviet imperialists. Without being able to continue to exploit arabian oil that STOLE at grabbed at the end of WW2 the U.S. is now quickly following Britain in sliding into the ignominy that it so RICHLY deserve. Who will punish the Americans for its past crimes against humanity? The world will NOT just forget!. Hollywood with its ridiculous propaganda lies doesn't own it!

[historatia]

@saulpaulus Well then, Saul, perhaps you can explain why the same set of US Officer names keep coming up, the Morgenthau officials (all religious cohorts of Morgenthau from the Treasury Department) that had been placed into the US forces as "enforcers" that implemented the JCS 1067 starvation plan. These "officers" undermined the Marshall Plan and stole billions by starving Gemans under the Marshll Plan while piling up HUGE fortunes in Switzerland. ...

[saulpaulus]

@historatia You tell so many lies it is hard to know where to begin. The Morgenthau Plan was only briefly imposed & it pales in comparison to the gentlest treatment the Nazis accorded Occupied Europe. 550K Dutch sent to slave labor in Europe, 18k died in Nazi induced famine. A whole generation of Dutch like Audrey Hepburn suffered from chronic lifelong diseases...anemia, respiratory diseases, edema, clinical depression & that pales in comparison to what the Nazis did in eastern & central Europe.

[saulpaulus]

@historatia A total of around $13 billion was dispensed by the Marshall Plan & $12 billion before that. Almost all of it went to rebuilding Europe while some went to food aid. There may have been individual acts of corruption, but they didn't amount to much. They certainly do not bear comparison to the the wholesale theft conducted by the Nazis. That of Polish art & cultural artifacts alone is estimated at over $20 billion.

[historatia]

@saulpaulus Today its all "laundered" into respectable investment funds, but it began as the largest theft from the US taxpayer EVER... orchestrated initially by Morgenthau's US Department of Treasury people. It took the special unit from first Adenauer Gov't of West Germany (with the Erhardt as Minister) to engage in a special "behind the scenes" war to gradually force out of existence the HUGE US-based mafia-type criminal criminal enterprise that the "Marshall Plan" corruption established.

[LottoWinner999]

@historatia Lies and lies by Hitlers Number Nazi Boy Historatia AKA Hitlers Helper! This is guy is psycho and its a shame he cannot be deported back to Germany because they don't want scumbags like him!

[SnorkyO]

Would you say the Marshall Plan saved Europe from Communism?

[saulpaulus]

@SnorkyO Quite possibly. Europe was in pretty desperate shape after the war and the communist party was especially strong in Italy and France.

[T800System]

Would you say the Marshall Plan was motivated more by a need for economic security or military security?

[saulpaulus]

It's a complex question. In general, Europe in 1945 was an absolute mess--economically and every other way. There were at least three very good reasons why the US had to intervene to stabilize Europe and get it back on its feet.

These are in no particular order. While the economy was so bad, communist parties in France and Italy thrived, underlining Stalin's threat.

[saulpaulus]

US factories were idle with the end of the war and big defense contracts. They needed America's logical #1 trading partner to be strong so it could buy American.

Finally, US thinkers as well as European saw a unified Europe as key to avoiding future world wars. An important element of the Plan was that the European states had to work together to determine what aid was needed and how it was to be distributed AND they had to eliminate trade barriers within Europe. This was the seed of the EU.

[T800System]

@saulpaulus

Interesting stuff. Thanks, you obviously know what you're talking about! (You should teach history, haha).

[saulpaulus]

Thanks. I will teach history when Immigration Canada lets me.

[haansgruber]

George C. Marshall was part of the communist plot to take over america.

We see that plan coming to fruition through the mighty UN dictates of today

hegelian dialectic

peace :)

[saulpaulus]

George C. Marshall was one of the greatest Americans who ever lived. He is as responsible as anyone is for our winning WW II and for our winning the Cold War against the Soviet Union. The Marshall Plan was the single greatest act of diplomacy in this country's history. Fervent anti-communist Winston Churchill described it as being "on the highest level of statesmanship." Nothing worked more effectively to END communism in Europe than the Marshall Plan.

[brwneyedgrl1989]

I still have to read 100 pages on this and its already midnight...buh...hopefully watching a documentary will help for class at 7am.....

[fanaber70]

Bloody Ruskies forbade Poles and other nationalities in eastern political block to avail themselves of this Marshall Plan which set back their economies. Now it's hard to catch up.

[soma1216]

george marshall is a good president

hahahahah

is a joke marshall do that because he had

scare about the socialism

obvioushe dont do thah because he had a big heart

[saulpaulus]

Marshall was worried about the spread of Stalinism and he was right to worry. Europe needed to get back on its own feet again and we couldn't afford not to help them.

[archer1949]

George Marshall: One of the Great Americans!

[saulpaulus]

Truly. Although I was disappointed to know that he was adamantly against supporting Israel.

[johnnycon]

Why's that something to be dissapointed about?

[saulpaulus]

I think it was necessary for the state of Israel to be established after the Holocaust. I do disagree with the current Israeli settlement policy and feel it is the single biggest roadblock on the path to peace, but Israel should exist. Marshall may have been an anti-Semite. That was not uncommon back then.

[johnnycon]

It seemed like such a noble cause, but ultimately, they were stealing land of other people. Can't really describe it as anything else.

Still... nothing can be done about that now. Israel is in for a massive fall if US one days stops backing it to the hilt. They've ruined relations with too many nations with their policy of land theft in the West Bank and the constant blockade of Gaza (and their support for Hamas in the 1980s).

[saulpaulus]

Ethnic cleansing was bound to happen in 1948 no matter who won. As it happened, Palestinians were removed from parts of modern Israel through threats and intimidation and Jewish populations all over the Arab world existing for centuries were also forced to leave. There are arguments about the validity of what happened in 1948. There can be none about 1967. The territories were conceded by both sides as Palestinian in 1949 & everything done there since 1967 is illegal even under Israeli law.

[kevinherbert]

Amazing vision...

[saulpaulus]

Yes and hopefully President Obama will do as well.