Women in Islam: From Freedom to Oppression? with Myriam Cerrah (Part 2/6)

[Valcaray]

I actually quite respect what this woman has to say. However,I would be interested to see how successful her interpretations and practice of Islam would be in a majority of Muslim households around the world. I am a feminist married to a reasonably 'compromising' Muslim man, and in 3 years of marriage I have had as many "cups of tea" made for me...

[Valcaray]

Interesting arguments below. I do find one thing confusing: why does a woman need to dress modestly in order to 'protect' herself from a man? With all the statistics of rape listed, being one of the arguments as to why modesty is important, it has lead me to think: if it is men who are raping women due to immodesty, why is it the womens responsibility? Isn't it the man who has a problem? Perhaps a male chastity belt is a better option.

[adz2k112]

@Valcaray It is both the man and womans responsibility to dress modestly according to Quran and authentic Hadiths. Women are, on a mass scale, being exploited, sexualised, you see this in everyday magazines, newspapers, tv shows, films etc. Saying "get the perfect body" or "get large breats", "the cheapest comestic surgeries revealed!" etc. The more attractive a woman stands out, the more profound the sexual responses will be, thats common sense.

[craicheaDARA]

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

[BachTantra]

I can't watch anymore, pure waffle......shes such a bore Zzzz

[pkpapers]

Isn't it strange that people from a mass-infanticide chulture will look askance on a culture that easily becomes stereotyped as "terrorist." The treatment that children get in the scientistic (worship of anthying that seems "scientific" no matter how incomplete or provisional) cultures is deeply terroristic in many ways. In the west many children are bullied into being objects addicted to stimulation, manipulated by peer pressure to be shallow evolution-fodder.

[pogota1]

machAllah!! very inspiring> May Allah shower you all with blessings .

[sables1000]

I never had any negative experiences when I became a muslim and wear my headscarf. Really and honestly. What I did experience however is that all my former so called 'sisters' and my husband never wanted to treat me as a normal human person anymore when I left.

[Sheriffkaya]

@sables1000 did you become a muslim and left ?

[sables1000]

@Sheriffkaya yup

[Sheriffkaya]

@sables1000 Ok... I donno why you revert to islam and give up again. But no one should treat you differently because you left Islam even if you speak against islam, to me thats your own opinion and your own experience of Islam. We muslims have one big issue and i think is that communication and understanding others... so good luck with your new life (as a muslim i have to say it though may Allah guide you in the right path)

[sables1000]

@Sheriffkaya well thanks for that, I appreciate it... but isn't it islam that states that apostates who openly fight (also, figuratively, argue) against islam, should be killed?

[Sheriffkaya]

@sables1000 Thats true to some extend. First of all my knowledge on this subject is limited so i only am going to give you my opinion so dont rely on my or anyone elses view search and read the Quran and most importantly analyse it well. As far as i know, The person should be put to death if the person is in Islamic state, there is no country in the world that is Islamic state, there are muslim countries(which means majority of its people are muslim). in Judaism is the same but have you

[Sheriffkaya]

@Sheriffkaya ever seeing or heard of any Jews being killed by over in Israel? Its a delicate issue and to me before we question Islam we should question, cultural differences, racial differences, and unfortunately todays muslims does not represent Islam so dont judge Islam by looking at muslims. I Dont have much time at the moment but i'd like to write more about this subject some other time perhaps message you 'cause commenting is limited. Take care

[sables1000]

@Sheriffkaya yes I have researched and I can only be so thankful that I am not in islamic state... isn't it the goal of every muslim to live under god's laws and in this case I should be killed? Or can you say as a muslim well I disagree with god about that? Do you honestly think that a person that argues with good arguments and apostizes should die? I know the verse about freedom of religion, to each his choice but the tafsir says its about whether or not converting, not about apostasy...

[fzjanjua]

@sables1000 Where in the quran does it state apostates should be killed and also, why have you left?

[sables1000]

@fzjanjua it is not in Qur'aan as far as I know, but in sahih sunna, just look on islamqa internet page, search for apostasy. There are some disagreements about if any apostate should be put to death, according to some scholars it is only the people (verbally) fighting against islam who should be killed. People like me for example.

Why did I leave? Too many reasons. Islam is not in accordance with science, it doesn't respect women at all, + I can't respect any being who tortures people.

[fzjanjua]

@sables1000 Even when an apostate is speaking against islam, it does not say in the Quran they should be put to death, you do know there are hadiths that are not accurate, its not like the quran which is revised by many.

First question, why did you become a muslim in the first place? 2nd, what is not in accordance with science and 3rd question, how does it not respect women and torture people?

[sables1000]

@fzjanjua I became a muslim because I found spirituality and thankfulness in it and according to dawah it is good for women. But found out it is not. Please, study evolution seriously, study what Quraan tells about the universe (stars are just to shoot jinnies out of the sky and for decoration of the lowest heaven). And study what islam says about woman: she should always obey her husband, even if he wants sex with her she should obey or else angels will curse her. If you read hadith, you know.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 You were never a Muslim, your just another scammer seeking apologetics to recruit in order to attack Islam. My youtube community have exposed 4 people who tried this, turned out they were christian missionaries. So be quiet, and leave.

[sables1000]

don't tell me to shut up because I won't. That's always the easiest way out, just claiming that people lie, because you cannot understand that there's people who find illogical things in your religion. I was a muslim, now I am atheist and will never be a christian in my lifetime because it is just as much as a load of crap as islam.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 "illogical" things? Why did you convert in the first place? All praise is due to Allah that I was born a Muslim, I was raised in a western society, educated in school and university and now I have a law degree. Yet, with all my skills and knowledge, I studied Islam and discovered the truth myself, I did't go to anyone except the Quran and authentic Hadith. I don't believe you, i've met many converts and they're very content in their beliefs, your just a deciever.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 just prove it or else don't tell lies about other people, it's forbidden in islam.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 You can't prove that you are a "former Muslim", so don't be a hypocrite. For all we know you might be a christian missionary, or some anti-islamic propagandist. Why does a random person like you, come out of nowhere, to a video about a girl who converted to Islam, and then strangely claim that your a former Muslim? Proves your some deciever trying to manipulate the circumstances with the viewers of this video. Exposed!

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 you can't prove that I wasn't. You wanna know why I do this? Because I think it is important that people stand up against the bullshit like in this video, that islam is so good for women. You need to tell the whole story! If you wanna talk about women, you need to mention the ugly ahadith about sex with female slaves, submission to husband etc etc. I converted to islam, I was exactly like the woman above, I want her to at least HEAR the complete story not only propaganda. Don't lie!!

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 If you think she's speaking bullshit, prove it? Exactly you can't, all you've done is just rant. Your have a distored peception about "submission to husband" in Islam. The Quran sets out the guidelines between a man, and woman in marraige, and the both possess rights over each other. This woman is a cambridge graduate, one of the best universities in Britain, she use 2 be a critic of Islam, but she discovered the truth. Your getting angry because you cant face it

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 it's the other way around, you are getting angry because you can't face the fact that others come to the conclusion that islam is false, by using logic and reason. So you degrade yourself to shouting I'm a liar, for which you have 0 proof. So what she is cambridge graduate, I am a cum laude graduate too, it proves nothing. So you think it is normal that a woman should obey her husband whenever he wants sex, or else the angels will curse her? Do you think this is an equal relationship?

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 Someone just inboxed me, saying your a waste of time, I agree with him. I'm not angry, your the one who resorted to words like "bullshit", you only swear if u get angry, also using '!' in your previous comments so are you sure i'm the one who is? I said she went to Cambridge, and was a critic of Islam, dont you find it strange how she became a Muslim?

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 must have been Allah guiding her then.

Question for you: if you are called a liar without any proof, would you think that is normal? Then just stop discussing if you don't like discussing with me, but your claims are baseless.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 Firstly, a woman is not compelled to have sex with her husband. And no, that hadith says "If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses, and he spends the night angry with her, the angels will curse her until morning". She will only be cursed for the anger, not refusal of sex. You also did'nt look at it from a logical point of view, if a man desires sex, and his wife refuses, is'nt he going to seek that pleasure from elsewhere? By committing adultery as an example?

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 seriously? It's still the woman who has to please the husband, or he will find another one to have sex with? So if my husband wants to have sex, and I say no, and this makes him angry, it is him who is the boss. Ah come on, are guys children or what? That's not logical at all, even IF you think that is the way a relationship works (please me or I will jump onto some other woman), it would work the same way for women. For me a relationship is giving and taking, not forcing someone.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 No its not still the woman who has to please the Husband. In Islam, the husband must provide for the wifes needs, this is in both Quran and Hadith. In fact, infidelity rates in US, for example, are 57% for men, 54% for women. That is extremely high, this is because of the flawed social infrastructure that you glorify of being superior. Am I still being illogical?

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 in my country it is about 25%, equal for men and women now, whereas it used to be as high for guys but the women were locked up, economically dependent of men and couldn't do a thing without his permission. I am glad this changed and would never want to go back to the system islam promotes. How would you like it as a guy that you ask your wife if you can go outside??? Totally illogical to me yes.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 and I don't need anyone to provide for my needs in exchange for sex, thank you. I can provide for myself.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 You've uttered a lie, your now saying that in Islam a man offers to a womans needs in exchange for sex? You've taken my comment out of context. When I said a man must fulfil a womans needs, I meant, GENERALLY. Hope that corrects you

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 you said a couple of posts above here that each has it's rights. So the man has the right to have sex according to hadith because she cannot make him angry with her. And he has to take care of her. So how else would you summarize that?

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 Right, I think i'm speaking to a child, so i'll simplify. Where did I include sex in "rights" when I was talking about equitable interests in property and wealth etc? Don't impose your distored perception of that hadith on others. I told you that in that hadith, which I cited, the anger ONLY causes the angels to curse the woman, its not the refusal of sex.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 don't get too personal, I'm telling you, because I don't like your way of discussing too much. First I am a liar, then I am a child. Either you take me serious or this discussion is ending right here.

Just turn the argument around: you as a guy has to obey your wife whenever SHE wants, no matter if you want or not. If she gets angry, you are the one to blame. This is NOT an equal relation. An equal relation is based on respect and love, not on you have have sex if I am frustrated.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 No way on earth am I going to take someone like you seriously, especially with your fallacies, or ludicrous comments/. You manipulated one hadith, into absurdity. I have to repeat myself again. The hadith shows that the woman commits sin, because of giving anger to the husband, not the refusal of sex. What do you not understand about that? You have the intellect of a child, no offence.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 and if the husband refuses sex to the wife and makes her angry, what about that? How can there be equality in a relationship if the relationship is defined as a one way street? Woman has to cover all the time, cannot go outside, is fitnah to other men, cannot be free and feel the wind in her hair or go out running, has to ask the husband, has to not make him angry. You are just scared that the woman has her own independent sexuality. Anyway no offence taken but discussion ends here.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 Your logic is shocking, the reason why the Quran addresses the woman to cover, is for modesty, in fact Allah in the Quran addresses the man to also dress modestly. What is your definition of freedom? is it to dress exposed, so that you may be exploited? Do you think men will respect you? or view you as a sexual tool, to be used? No, i'm not scared at all, go ahead, go outside wearing a revealing dress, or even a bikini! Would you like some body lotion with that?

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 my logic is just another way of seeing things, why so shocking? For me freedom is to be able to choose. I want to go running, I want to go outside in my normal clothes, feeling the wind in my hair, just like a guy can do. RESPECT is what I demand of people, because of who I am not because of my dress. If a guy can't respect me, too bad for him!! As a guy you can never feel what it means not to be able to do these things freely because you are only seen as sexuality and fitnah.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 If you want to go running, find a suitable location, out of sight of men. If you want to feel the wind on your hair, go to your garden, or stand by an open window, what the hell is this nonsense? please, sort yourself out. If you want respect, you have to respect yourself first, if your going out exposed, your asking to be exploited, not respected, please enough of your trash talk, it's extremely lame.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 this is exactly what I mean. Who are you to tell me if I respect myself? You are being extremely arrogant here. If you want to believe nonsense, telling a woman what she can and cannot do, it is up to you, but don't try to sell this as women's rights like the lady above in the video and you are trying to do. You are oppressing a person's freedom and trying to make it look good. I wore the hijab for 2 years, now I don't and I see NO difference whatsoever in the way people approach me.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 I was being sarcastic, due to your extremely lame comment. The woman above is a white, English Woman, who studied in Cambridge and came to Islam, because she saw its true path, bit strange don't you think? I'm oppressing your freedom? lol how much more can you get ridiculous? If your former husband hassled you, how dare you blame Islam! You have ears, but you dont hear, you have eyes, but you fail to see, you have a brain, but you cannot understand. Case closed.

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 you were being sarcastic? but every word you are saying is straight from islam!! In islam, I have to go running out of the sight of man. Does man own this planet that they are keeping women from showing themselves? Why does islam not forbid the men to stay inside then, if they are so weak? I am an educated woman who came to islam studied it and saw that it's not true. So who is right? And don't keep telling me I'm stupid, because you can't even reason yourself you just repeat Qur'aan.

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 I was being sarcastic in that comment where I said "stand by an open window" if you want the air to flow through your hair, so don't quote me out of context. During the prophets time, they were engaged in warfare, the Quran stated to tell "the believing women" to veil themselves, otherwise they would be harassed or raped, as this is what happened to the Muslim women at the time, it was a protection against being violated. I have reasoned, you have'nt!

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 you're twisting and turning just to make something out of your logic now... so you are saying that in times of no war, when women are not being harassed, it is ok to go running without hijab and in normal joggingpants, if you are not harassed as a woman? And what did the muslim guys do with the women who were taken as war prisoners? Hmm.. harrass and have sex with them, and take them as slaves instead of setting them free! And you call that reason? You can't even have your own morals!

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 I gave you the context of the verse, of dressing modestly. Today we live in a higly sexualised society, rapes are out of control. In USA, 191,670 women were victims of sexual crime, in 2006, it was 232,960 (National Organisation Women) thats more than 600 women everyday! What more shocking? 60% are not reported! Why do you think the lowest rape rates are in the Muslim world?

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 You possess a distorted notion on the modest Islamic dress code, as much as I try to reason, you throw in a ridiculous comment, like the about going for a run, or letting "air flow through the hair", and you call that a reasonable argument? haha

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 can you explain to me why it is not reasonable? It is a very real decision to make for a muslim woman who wants to do something as simple as going jogging: is it ok for me to do this dressed the way I am? It is a very real feeling when you are in the middle of summer and it is very hot, and you just want to throw the hijab and long sleeves off of your body and feel cool. You can't do that though because of the chance a guy might get horny. Hey, it's your religion, not mine anymore!!

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 If you want to jog, go and jog, in a good area. If your hot, wear more loose, thinner or less weighty clothing, and lighter colours such as white, common sense! Now i've thrown statistics and common knowledge at you, what is your response to that? more superstitious nonsense?

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 oh and that stupid comment you wrote "a guy might get horny". WRONG LOGIC, It's so a man is dressed modestly in the sight of a woman. Any more stupid comments coming?

[adz2k112]

@sables1000 Between 30-60% of marraiges in the US will end up in divorce. Islam has the perfect system for marraige and its equitable interests. Islam gave women equitable interests in property, only became part of the west in the 19th century. For example, in England, in 1882, following the enactment of the Married Women's property Act 1882. Care to carry on?

[sables1000]

@adz2k112 yes the only way of being so called 'perfect' is by submitting the woman to stay at home as much as possible because you guys are just scared that the woman has her own sexuality and if she has the chance she will keep up with the guys in cheating or finding a better partner... a woman in islam still can't inherit as much as a guy, so she will always depend on a guy (father, or husband) to lead her life. This is not equality, it is enprisonment. I prefer to be free, sorry.

[87Philips]

Maybe people have a good reason to feel insulted by people who follow a religion that teaches that their loved ones will be tortured forever.