No issues with the forkball, but we are really mainly concerned with youth pitchers here, and their hands are generally too small to bother attempting the forkball. You also don't need to look that hard for a second pitch - a palm ball change-up.
I thought that we were trying to win games. Maybe should have an MPH limit as well...maybe batters should be able to hit it off a tee....Good grief....
i can kinda throw a cutter.... im guessing you can grip the ball... around the horseshoe.. and throw it like a fastball... would that REALLY hurt my wrist or damage my elbow? I'm only 11 years old... but im just asking if i should throw that pitch cleanly, or not, becasue it would hurt my arm.
Indeed, let me be clear. I'm not saying that youngsters can not throw an effective curve ball. I've seen many kids throw very good curve balls. What I am saying is that the end is not worth the means! If you want to be pitching when you're 18 years old, you'd better shelf that wrist-snapping curveball you're throwing now, at least until you begin shaving. Work on location. Throw to spots. Develop your change up. These effective pitching variances will give you enough to get them out!
As I mentioned, as long as it is PURELY your grip that gives the ball the cutting action, and NOT any type of wrist or elbow snap, pronation or supination, then fine, go ahead. To protect your arm, and to deceive the hitter, everything about this pitch delivery should mimick your fastball.
Knuckelballs are OK so long as there is not snap if the wrist/elbow. No knuckeball or, "spike" CB has a tighter rotation than a pure curve ball, although their action might be equally effective. At 13, it is OK to tinker with a knuckleball, but try to focus on developing your arm strength through long toss (to help your fastball velocity and your arm endurance), work on a palm-ball change-up (including when you are playing long toss), and work on location of your fastball to the four corners.
The grip of the curve ball and knuckleball have absolutely no relationship - they aren't even close. Their respective movement is completely unique, as is their affect on the young arm. The knuckleball, if thrown with fastball arm action, does no harm. The curveball, if thrown as 99% people teach it, is harmful.
I'll tell you may be a real gray area with this rule that may make it difficult to enforce. A true curveball will be easily do identify. A pure slider will be a little bit more difficult to identify - but it will take a perceptive umpire to catch it. A "cutter" is going to be the problem because it will slider-like action but will have many characteristics of a fastball. Worse yet, the pitcher may be throwing a natural cutter when his intent is really to throw a fastball. That's a gray area.
It isn't grey at all. We specifically noted that the umpire would declare the curveball NOT based on its action, but rather, based on seeing the pitcher deliberately snapping his/her wrist or elbow. In addition to the scenarios you identified, I've even found that occasionally, when a brand new ball is introduced into a game, it cuts almost "on its own". Thanks for writing.
It is pretty tough to do so, which is the whole point of the rule. In order to protect their arms and enable to pitch into their twenties, youngsters should focus their energy on the three points I made above to "airdones".
my brother had a dirty slider that worked because of his grip and it got around this rule. haha in the beginning of the game he would have to explain it to the ump showing that he didn't break his wrist.
There's no "getting around" this rule. If your brother didn't snap his wrist or elbow, and simply used a certain grip (and probably some specific finger pressure) and threw the pitch using his fastball motion,, and the ball ran, then good for him, and no harm to his arm.
logistics. By saying, "got around the rule" I simply meant that he could make it move without any infractions to little leauge's decree on elbow and wrist snapping. It's not important enough to really emphasize and elucidate my initial wording. Don't worry about it.
Bit sensitive there Rallin? If I was worried about it, I'd have replied a tad more quickly than eight months later! Anyway, I appreciate hearing your brother's story and your explanation of how he did it. He was blessed. It is funny, but smart, that he demonstrated his grip to the umpire before the games. Take care,
I'm not sure what "forward spin-late release" means.
What you have described as your CB is actually a cut FB. So long as the arm action remains consistent w/ a FB, there is no harm. However, in order to achieve the grip you describe, the hand would have to be as big as a typical 15-16 yr-old's. A plyr that age, who is shaving, may throw the CB without damaging his arm.
Don't try to "get around" a smart rule. At most, work on FB location w/ young pitchers, or teach them a proper change-up.
If you are, then your growth plates, etc., are ready. However, may I strongly recommend to you that you focus improving your (1) arm strength, using long toss; (2) fastball location - see if you can pinpoint it to the corners of the strike zone; and, (3) change-up pitch, which, for you, means a palm-ball grip - the additional friction on the ball will cause it to come in about 10-20% slower, yet, by keeping your arm speed consistent w/ your fastball delivery, you are going to trick the hitter.
I addressed that in the video. A fastball thrown with proper fastball mechanics that happens to run, tail, dip, bore, sink, etc. is of course all fine.
The arm action that coincides with a pure slider pitch is not advisable either. Now, go one more degree over and let's talk about a "cut fastball" a.k.a. "a cutter." Depending how old you are & how big your hand is, the cutter is OK, since, like the change-up pitch, the cutter arm action is identical to that of a fastball, but it runs/cuts purely due to the grip. Cutters come from gripping the ball "along the seams" v. across the seams, or by applying extra pressure with one of your fingers.
hold on there. im only 14, but ive been able to throw a cutter since i was 11. I dont think it matters if you have big hands as long as you can make it drop and cut in.
Faire enough, so long as it is happening naturally, and not because you are snapping/turning/twisting your elbow or wrist. If you have a naturally cutting fastball, you are blessed - more power to you.
i throw my curveballs like a normal fastball just i cup it like a curve and throw it normal until it reaches my head then i start to move my arm away from my body which makes it spin like a screwball but breaks like a curve sometimes it moves like a screwball is that allowed??????
Response (Part 1 of 2): Basing my opinion on your word description only, when you "move your arm away from your body," that is called pronation. While the pronation action isn't something we have asked umpires to look for regarding the outlawing of the curve ball (the typical action for a curve ball is called supination), your arm and your growth plates cannot take that type of torque any more than it can the curve ball mechanics, until you are shaving (assuming you are a male).
Putting my phone number is no different than you putting your email address. I don't have time in my life for prank emails or phone calls, and I trust that others would only contact me with a serious comment or question.
Hey Tom, I am 14 years old and I am a little League pitcher for years my dad always told me not to throw a curveball because of the damage it can do to my arm. Well agree with you on this subject. I only recently began to throw a curveball other then that this rule will be and should be very effective in ears to come.
You've got a smart dad, and a dad who cares more about you than winning! Throw strikes, work fast when you pitch, and when you miss, miss low. If you watch anybody have a successful outing, you will see those three elements in the equation everytime.
I totaly agree on that. My dad always told me when I was younger not to throw curveballs until I was old enough, to practice my control instead. And all the other kids who had success throwing curveballs at a very young age, now, most of them can't even throw anymore or have serious pain in there arm after throwing.
For 30 years, I've responded to youngsters who asked me to teach them the curve ball that I would tell them everything I know as soon as they can throw four fastballs in a row to the four corners of the strike zone ... I've never seen it done to this day. And, if they had that type of control, the next pitch to master is the palm-ball change-up, and then, POSSIBLY, distinguish a 4-seam fastball from a 2-seamer.
Hmmmm its makes sense, but are they allowed to throw a knuckle curve? Not a normal knuckle curve but one where it is held like a knuckle curve but the index finger is used to push the ball to induce spin.
Fair question. Not many kids have this ability, but for those who do, as long as the arm action and arm speed reflects that of a fastball (which is not only ideal for injury prevention, but also is a function of deceiving the hitter), then it's OK, just like a palm ball change-up would be.
As long as the arm action parallels the fast ball motion, and most knuckle curve balls do, then just like a palm ball change-up for a kid, there should be no harm.
Nice reasoning! Would you like me to email you a summary of the research I did on it? Please don't waste your time or mine unless you are someone who knows something about baseball and you are sincere.
We're talking kids who can't shave yet, and their fingers certainly wouldn't be long enough to toy with a splitter. Work on a palm-ball-change if you feel you can locate your fastball to the four corners with regularity.
Hi Tyler J: I didn't know that you were Vapordude?!?! A split-fingered fastball is OK for youngsters because the arm action is the same as for a fastball. However, most youngsters, even you with your big hands, don't have hands big enough to properly grip a splitty and execute the pitch. We're going to work with you on your palm ball change-up as your second pitch. Thanks for responding - that was cool!
I don't mean to sound like a stiff, but I'm honestly not sure what you're question means? If you're joking, no problem. If you're serious, can you rephrase?
kids shouldnt be throwing curveballs period...at least until they start high school...before then, they are gonna mess up their elbows
KingOfKingz819 1 year ago
What about a fork ball? no breaking of the wrist but it may damage your hand as you put the mall inbetween your fingers...
Lukegpb 1 year ago
No issues with the forkball, but we are really mainly concerned with youth pitchers here, and their hands are generally too small to bother attempting the forkball. You also don't need to look that hard for a second pitch - a palm ball change-up.
TomValcke 1 year ago
I thought that we were trying to win games. Maybe should have an MPH limit as well...maybe batters should be able to hit it off a tee....Good grief....
iandemagi 1 year ago
omg i want that jacked
gojaysgorush 1 year ago
i can kinda throw a cutter.... im guessing you can grip the ball... around the horseshoe.. and throw it like a fastball... would that REALLY hurt my wrist or damage my elbow? I'm only 11 years old... but im just asking if i should throw that pitch cleanly, or not, becasue it would hurt my arm.
Talisman0110 2 years ago
thats how my curve works awesome when i snap my wrist
jlawhun92 2 years ago
Indeed, let me be clear. I'm not saying that youngsters can not throw an effective curve ball. I've seen many kids throw very good curve balls. What I am saying is that the end is not worth the means! If you want to be pitching when you're 18 years old, you'd better shelf that wrist-snapping curveball you're throwing now, at least until you begin shaving. Work on location. Throw to spots. Develop your change up. These effective pitching variances will give you enough to get them out!
TomValcke 2 years ago
As I mentioned, as long as it is PURELY your grip that gives the ball the cutting action, and NOT any type of wrist or elbow snap, pronation or supination, then fine, go ahead. To protect your arm, and to deceive the hitter, everything about this pitch delivery should mimick your fastball.
TomValcke 2 years ago
I throw a knuckle or "spike" curve ball... no extra wrist motion, and it has a tighter spin than most other curves
I'm 13
DevBProductions 2 years ago
Knuckelballs are OK so long as there is not snap if the wrist/elbow. No knuckeball or, "spike" CB has a tighter rotation than a pure curve ball, although their action might be equally effective. At 13, it is OK to tinker with a knuckleball, but try to focus on developing your arm strength through long toss (to help your fastball velocity and your arm endurance), work on a palm-ball change-up (including when you are playing long toss), and work on location of your fastball to the four corners.
TomValcke 2 years ago
the curve itself has really no relation to the knuckleball other than the grip
DevBProductions 2 years ago
The grip of the curve ball and knuckleball have absolutely no relationship - they aren't even close. Their respective movement is completely unique, as is their affect on the young arm. The knuckleball, if thrown with fastball arm action, does no harm. The curveball, if thrown as 99% people teach it, is harmful.
TomValcke 2 years ago
If it's all grip, and your arm action and release mimick your fastball, then it sounds fine.
TomValcke 2 years ago
I'll tell you may be a real gray area with this rule that may make it difficult to enforce. A true curveball will be easily do identify. A pure slider will be a little bit more difficult to identify - but it will take a perceptive umpire to catch it. A "cutter" is going to be the problem because it will slider-like action but will have many characteristics of a fastball. Worse yet, the pitcher may be throwing a natural cutter when his intent is really to throw a fastball. That's a gray area.
davidemerling 2 years ago
It isn't grey at all. We specifically noted that the umpire would declare the curveball NOT based on its action, but rather, based on seeing the pitcher deliberately snapping his/her wrist or elbow. In addition to the scenarios you identified, I've even found that occasionally, when a brand new ball is introduced into a game, it cuts almost "on its own". Thanks for writing.
TomValcke 2 years ago
how can u throw a curve without the snapping wrist or the other way u said
mannybatista13 2 years ago
It is pretty tough to do so, which is the whole point of the rule. In order to protect their arms and enable to pitch into their twenties, youngsters should focus their energy on the three points I made above to "airdones".
TomValcke 2 years ago
my brother had a dirty slider that worked because of his grip and it got around this rule. haha in the beginning of the game he would have to explain it to the ump showing that he didn't break his wrist.
rallin21 3 years ago 2
Comment removed
airdones 3 years ago
There's no "getting around" this rule. If your brother didn't snap his wrist or elbow, and simply used a certain grip (and probably some specific finger pressure) and threw the pitch using his fastball motion,, and the ball ran, then good for him, and no harm to his arm.
TomValcke 2 years ago
logistics. By saying, "got around the rule" I simply meant that he could make it move without any infractions to little leauge's decree on elbow and wrist snapping. It's not important enough to really emphasize and elucidate my initial wording. Don't worry about it.
rallin21 2 years ago
Bit sensitive there Rallin? If I was worried about it, I'd have replied a tad more quickly than eight months later! Anyway, I appreciate hearing your brother's story and your explanation of how he did it. He was blessed. It is funny, but smart, that he demonstrated his grip to the umpire before the games. Take care,
Tom
TomValcke 2 years ago
worst rule ever.
kirkster14 3 years ago
Come on Kirk - it is fine to express your opinion, but at least attempt to back up your position.
TomValcke 2 years ago
Comment removed
airdones 3 years ago
I'm not sure what "forward spin-late release" means.
What you have described as your CB is actually a cut FB. So long as the arm action remains consistent w/ a FB, there is no harm. However, in order to achieve the grip you describe, the hand would have to be as big as a typical 15-16 yr-old's. A plyr that age, who is shaving, may throw the CB without damaging his arm.
Don't try to "get around" a smart rule. At most, work on FB location w/ young pitchers, or teach them a proper change-up.
TomValcke 3 years ago
Comment removed
airdones 3 years ago
If you are, then your growth plates, etc., are ready. However, may I strongly recommend to you that you focus improving your (1) arm strength, using long toss; (2) fastball location - see if you can pinpoint it to the corners of the strike zone; and, (3) change-up pitch, which, for you, means a palm-ball grip - the additional friction on the ball will cause it to come in about 10-20% slower, yet, by keeping your arm speed consistent w/ your fastball delivery, you are going to trick the hitter.
TomValcke 2 years ago
what if the curveball is natraully in a fastball
MeisoVonstrango 3 years ago
I addressed that in the video. A fastball thrown with proper fastball mechanics that happens to run, tail, dip, bore, sink, etc. is of course all fine.
TomValcke 3 years ago
what about a slider since it sorta curves
MeisoVonstrango 3 years ago
The arm action that coincides with a pure slider pitch is not advisable either. Now, go one more degree over and let's talk about a "cut fastball" a.k.a. "a cutter." Depending how old you are & how big your hand is, the cutter is OK, since, like the change-up pitch, the cutter arm action is identical to that of a fastball, but it runs/cuts purely due to the grip. Cutters come from gripping the ball "along the seams" v. across the seams, or by applying extra pressure with one of your fingers.
TomValcke 3 years ago
hold on there. im only 14, but ive been able to throw a cutter since i was 11. I dont think it matters if you have big hands as long as you can make it drop and cut in.
gameplay0 3 years ago 2
Faire enough, so long as it is happening naturally, and not because you are snapping/turning/twisting your elbow or wrist. If you have a naturally cutting fastball, you are blessed - more power to you.
TomValcke 2 years ago
i throw my curveballs like a normal fastball just i cup it like a curve and throw it normal until it reaches my head then i start to move my arm away from my body which makes it spin like a screwball but breaks like a curve sometimes it moves like a screwball is that allowed??????
jc9300493rlz 4 years ago
Response (Part 1 of 2): Basing my opinion on your word description only, when you "move your arm away from your body," that is called pronation. While the pronation action isn't something we have asked umpires to look for regarding the outlawing of the curve ball (the typical action for a curve ball is called supination), your arm and your growth plates cannot take that type of torque any more than it can the curve ball mechanics, until you are shaving (assuming you are a male).
TomValcke 4 years ago
why the crap would you put ur phone number on the vid. P.S. IM PRANK CALLING YOU
dakoester1 4 years ago
Putting my phone number is no different than you putting your email address. I don't have time in my life for prank emails or phone calls, and I trust that others would only contact me with a serious comment or question.
TomValcke 4 years ago
Hey Tom, I am 14 years old and I am a little League pitcher for years my dad always told me not to throw a curveball because of the damage it can do to my arm. Well agree with you on this subject. I only recently began to throw a curveball other then that this rule will be and should be very effective in ears to come.
hhappy44 4 years ago
You've got a smart dad, and a dad who cares more about you than winning! Throw strikes, work fast when you pitch, and when you miss, miss low. If you watch anybody have a successful outing, you will see those three elements in the equation everytime.
TomValcke 4 years ago
I totaly agree on that. My dad always told me when I was younger not to throw curveballs until I was old enough, to practice my control instead. And all the other kids who had success throwing curveballs at a very young age, now, most of them can't even throw anymore or have serious pain in there arm after throwing.
PinheadGP 4 years ago
For 30 years, I've responded to youngsters who asked me to teach them the curve ball that I would tell them everything I know as soon as they can throw four fastballs in a row to the four corners of the strike zone ... I've never seen it done to this day. And, if they had that type of control, the next pitch to master is the palm-ball change-up, and then, POSSIBLY, distinguish a 4-seam fastball from a 2-seamer.
TomValcke 4 years ago
........
rsmazter 4 years ago
Hmmmm its makes sense, but are they allowed to throw a knuckle curve? Not a normal knuckle curve but one where it is held like a knuckle curve but the index finger is used to push the ball to induce spin.
SheppTate 4 years ago
Fair question. Not many kids have this ability, but for those who do, as long as the arm action and arm speed reflects that of a fastball (which is not only ideal for injury prevention, but also is a function of deceiving the hitter), then it's OK, just like a palm ball change-up would be.
TomValcke 4 years ago
As long as the arm action parallels the fast ball motion, and most knuckle curve balls do, then just like a palm ball change-up for a kid, there should be no harm.
TomValcke 4 years ago
thats stupid
siuzach94 4 years ago
Nice reasoning! Would you like me to email you a summary of the research I did on it? Please don't waste your time or mine unless you are someone who knows something about baseball and you are sincere.
Thanks,
Tom
TomValcke 4 years ago
hi tom its tyler can you throw a splitter??
vaporxxxxdude 4 years ago
We're talking kids who can't shave yet, and their fingers certainly wouldn't be long enough to toy with a splitter. Work on a palm-ball-change if you feel you can locate your fastball to the four corners with regularity.
Thanks,
Tom
TomValcke 4 years ago
Hi Tyler J: I didn't know that you were Vapordude?!?! A split-fingered fastball is OK for youngsters because the arm action is the same as for a fastball. However, most youngsters, even you with your big hands, don't have hands big enough to properly grip a splitty and execute the pitch. We're going to work with you on your palm ball change-up as your second pitch. Thanks for responding - that was cool!
Coach Tom
TomValcke 4 years ago
Is this the same as Majors? or jsut for "WOBA" because it might produce snapping injuries...lol pardon me.
akr06 4 years ago
I don't mean to sound like a stiff, but I'm honestly not sure what you're question means? If you're joking, no problem. If you're serious, can you rephrase?
Thanks,
Tom
TomValcke 4 years ago