they say they believe in jesus and for the most part they do. whats messed up is they have this man who practiced witchcraft who had led em into a a STRANGE religon in which mr smiths words are more truer than christs. I challenge ANY morman to a debate-->tallnavy@gmail.com
This type of hateful rhetoric and misinformation is really sad. I am LDS, and I AM a Christian, first and foremost! Of course nothing I can say to you will change your mind. Your heart is too hardened to listen. A person's faith is a very personal thing. My salvation is between me and my God, the One true God of the universe; and my Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you believe differently than I do, (as long as you follow Christ) that is between you and God, .
@TheOriginalAnalogKid I agree that it is a very personal thing to ask Satan's spirit brother to be your personal savior. If I offend you, well good. All I have done is lay out what LDS beliefs are.
Typical. Why can I not find any intelligent discussion or debate here on you-tube? I am sorry I mistook you for an intelligent, rational person; since you have now made it clear that your only goal is to OFFEND people. My goal is to speak truth, therefore there is no point in continuing any discussion here.
I pray your eyes will be opened to truth, and your heart softened. (John 12: 39-40)
Do you believe Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers? If so, then just how am I "throwing stone?" Of course, if your beliefs are nothing more than just stones, then I am guilty as charged.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In Isaiah, "Lucifer" is NOT Satan. He is a Babylonian king who would fall like Satan did. The Almighty never revealed anything to Joseph Smith. Either Joseph and Sidney made it all up, or the angel macaroni and Satan helped invent their evil doctrines. I don't see a problem. Gordon B. Hinkley Fudd said that mormons do not have the same Jesus as Christians do. Mormons reverence a guy named Jesus who was the spirit brother of a king of Babylon.. (That) is another gospel.
we are christian everyone that believes in christ is christian thats why the word christ is in christian. We dont not think Jesus is god there is only one god and that is his father and our father in heaven. And yes jesus and satan were spirit brothers that doesnt mean they are the same.No he is not the second person of the trinity! No its not different from the bible it is the same.
@LovieDovieBear Can you name one place in the Bible that states Jesus and Satan are brothers? I'll even give you a little room to work here. Can you name anywhere in the Book of Mormon where is states Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers?
@LovieDovieBear You say there is only one god. That I agree with, but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught there are millions of gods. I am glad you disagree with them.
they have the Doctrine about lying for the Lord...and many gods can happen in the Mormon theology. My question if you die and are a good Mormon and do everything that you can like the Mormon prophets supposed to do, then why is Moroni an angel rather than a god. That alone to me is a contradiction in terms. But alas you Mormons always turn things so that they look better in your eyes. you only listen to what your itching ears want to hear
Why do Mormons get upset when a Christian challenges them? Didn't Joseph Smith do this very thing when he claimed that God told him that the churches were "all wrong," that their creeds "were an abomination," and that their professors "were all corrupt"?
@lgazzini we do not so stop puting out all of these lies just because u dnt like the church doesnt mean u can go and lie about its because thats all ur puting out is lies and this is coming from a true mormons mouth
Igazzini, I just happened across this bit about Are Mormons Christians and came upon your posts really going for the jugular and deliberately making inflammatory remarks. Who cares if Jesus is white or black or technicolor? Whats Christian about your hate filled ravings?
It's like this. I have closely looked at many religions, Christian and non Christian and What you are putting up as fact is only your opinion. Nowhere do you declare your religion so what is Christian about you? If you claim to be a Christian act like one and stop your bloody minded ravings. Where, in your particular scriptures, does it say to attack other faiths ?
What does it matter if Jesus if white or black or brindle?
AGAIN, what exactly is incorrect in the video? If you cannot tell me, then please stop talking to hear your own ears roar.
As far as the Bible being useless. Ex. We read that Jesus is the only begotten Son. Mormons say Jesus is the only begotten Son in the flesh. Most everything has an addition to it in order to bend it to their own belief system.
@carrie, If you claim to be a member of PETA, then everyone would know you are a vegetarian. If you claim to be a Mormon, that means you believe their doctrines. Mormon doctrine is anti bilbical. For example. You believe man can progress to godhood. The bible says in Is 43:10 "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
This is just one of many anti Bible, anti Christian teachings.
@carrieicecream Not exactly sure what that has to do with anything. The English language changes over time. You and I do not speak in the 1611 style of English. Modern translations speak to us in the common English language of our day. Still, several Christians still use the King James Bible.
Again, you comment has nothing to do with the video.
well, I was trying to point out that not all of us are fallen angels. =/ I am not being double minded nor am I lying. So no, it's not embarrassing for me, yet it might be for you since you're the one that's trying to attack me and other LDS belief.
You said "theses opinions are shockingly untrue", Now you are agreeing that I am correct. I NEVER said anything about a "fallen angel." You in fact believe Satan to be your spirit brother. You in fact believe Satan to be a spirit brother of Christ. That is NOT found anywhere in the Bible. If anything I have said is untrue, then point that out. Otherwise stop making baseless accusations.
well. To put it straightly. Yes... Satan was created by the same God who created me BUT satan/lucifer is a fallen angel, which is due to the freedom of choice that God gave us. He wanted the glory of being Jesus, tried to take it, but it was not for him. So he was cast out of heaven.
Thanks for the honesty. You do indeed think that Satan is your spirit brother. You are double minded here. First you say this is "untrue", then when backed in a corner admit that it is the way you believe. Just why did you have to lie about this? It is embarrassing?
Holy moly where in the world did you pull these opinions from?!??!?! they are shockingly untrue, and I would kindly advice you to do more research, and perhaps take the time to talk to your local missionaries about these problems that you are coming up with so you can find out the truth...
Let's see if you can give a straight answer. Is Satan a spirit child of your God the Father? Are you a spirit child of your God the Father? Thus, are you a spirit brother (or sister) to Satan?
Thank you stuffybear for admitting I am not so stupid as you first claimed. I am not arrogrant enough to tell anyone they should shut their mouth. You keep talking and we will see what little you actually know. BTW, no where in the Bible does it say Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. That is a MORMON thing.
the cross is of lesser importance because we do not worship it. we do not worship his death. we worship Christs resurrection and his atonement. we believe we are all spirit brothers and sisters and that god is our eternal father in heaven. we believe the bible, to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Do you even know what "covenants" mean? its the same as commandments. the books title still is the same.you know NADA
Interesting, no where in your comments does it say anything about Christ's sacrifice. The cross is a symbol of that sacrifice. Unless you take that to heart, you will always be lost.
yes, the cross is a symbol of his sacrifice, but it is not the sacrifice we worship. we worship him and the sacrifice he had in the garden of Gethsemane, where he atoned for all our sins.
I personally have never met anyone who worshipped a cross. But I know many who praise Christ for what He did on the cross. In the garden he had some bleeding. On the cross he truly shed his blood. In the Old Testament Temple in Jerusalem, they did not just get a little blood from a lamb and then let it go. It was sacrificed. Big difference.
stuffybear- I'm sorry you little of your own faith. Milton R. Hunter wrote, "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws" (G.T.A., p. 51).
Bruce McConkie "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked Him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent while yet in His pre-existent state" (M.D., p. 129).
Christ "inherits" from God the Father. Calls God the Father "your God and my God". God the Father "gave" Christ authority. God the Father "sent" Jesus Christ to do the "Father's will", not his own will. Christ prayed to his Father. After Christ's resurrection, he said, "touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father".
Now you expect LDS to believe that Christ needed to inherit that which was already his? Ascend to himself? Do the will of not himself, but instead himself?
No human can be in the presence of God and live. As seen in Philippians 2 God the Son made himself nothing, taking the form of a human. God the Son was always in submission to the Father. Notice, nowhere in the Bible does it say there is a Heavenly mother. So yes, your concept is screwed up.
Yes smpf38, In Phillipians 2:7 it states Jesus made himself nothing. I can understand LDS having trouble with the Bible. What I cannot understand is what the Pythagorean theorem has to do with spiritual matters. Maybe that is in one of your numerous so called scriptures.
Igazzini: "Phillipians 2:7 it states Jesus made himself nothing."
So, was Jesus "nothing"? Or was he "equal to God" and "in the FORM of God"? (Phil 2:6)
Jesus Christ was fully Deity and also fully man. His spirit was perfect from before mortality, yet he was born in the most humble of circumstances: poor, in a manger, "of no reputation" (Phil 2:7).
Jesus was the Son of God in the flesh and the Savior of mankind thanks to what he did for us during his mission in mortality.
Igazzini: No human can be in the presence of God and live.
It is the "natural man" who cannot see God. Thanks to Christ, the natural man can be removed from men so that they can endure God's presence. Moses is one example (Exodus 32:11) as the natural man was removed, he was changed (Ex 34:29-30,33,35). This kind of "transfiguration" occurred with Jesus in the New Testament as well. And see also Matthew 5:8 which says we can.
The point is, you need to look at ALL the text on this subject.
smpf38- You are quite the comedian. You tell me to look at all the text but totally ignore Ex 33:18-23. It does include "you cannot see my face, fro man shall not see me and live." concerning Mat 5:8, it states the pure in heart shall see God. Are you implying Joseph was pure in heart. Even though he was conning all those women into his sham marriages, all behind his wife's back. Is that what is pure in heart to LDS?
Igazzini: You tell me to look at all the text but totally ignore Ex 33:18-23.
I don't ignore that at all. Those were two different occasions. In one occasion, Moses "spoke to the Lord face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend". On another occasion, the Lord did not allow Moses to see his face. The different occasions had different circumstances and the Lord was willing to show Moses only what he was able to handle at those different times.
Exodus 33, Moses "spoke to the Lord face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend".
Turn to your friend and speak to that person. This is what the text says Moses' experience was like. (See also Ex 24:10)
Then Moses says "shew me thy glory". Moses had seen the form of God, now he wanted to see the glory within Him.
The problem is that Moses was still a mortal man. He couldn't handle seeing all of God's glory, therefore, God protected Moses by only showing some glory, not all of it.
Iga: There is something called hyperbole. Not everything spoken is literal.
I agree that not everything spoken is literal. However, there is nothing in these verses that would say that this is not meant to be literal. And I would LOVE to talk about the context.
Iga: What did Joseph mean when he claimed there were Quaker like people living on the moon?
I don't know. There was a common rumor about these people at the time. Someone said that someone said that Joseph Smith spoke about it.
smpf3- so you agree that Joseph believed men lived on the moon. He certainly talked as if he knew a good bit about them. Brigham Young believed people lived on the sun, was he correct?
Igazzini-so you agree that Joseph believed men lived on the moon.
Not at all. If you look into it, you will find exactly what I said. There was a general belief/rumor at the time concerning men living on the moon (it was printed in some newspaper of some kind in the early 1800's - non-LDS having nothing to do with Mormons).
Then at some point someone said, that another person said, that Joseph Smith had spoken about it as well. Nobody knows if or what Joseph said about the subject.
Now your just being a smart-mouth. Isaiah 53:6 says "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
So, he paid himself for our sins. As far as what I expect the LDS to believe I can't even guess where I should begin but the doctrin of the trinity is one area where you and I disagree and the LDS have several unscriptual beliefs. You need to get out of there.
donot: Isaiah 53:6 "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." So, he paid himself for our sins.
Taking upon himself the burden of sin is not the same as someone who "paid himself" as you claim. That scripture doesn't even come close to saying that he paid himself. It was the eternal principle of justice that was paid (while preserving the principle of mercy).
I can take upon myself my family's debt and pay it off if they accept that offer. When I pay it goes to the credit card company.
Psalm 51 against thee and THEE ONLY have I sinned
There is a sin debt and you know it and you admit that it was paid by God to God for us but you don't want to face it head-on so you come at it sideways and say He paid "the eternal principle of justice." Well, whose principle is it? As far as the Melchisedec vid: it's not that you made the video giving your veiw. It's how you interperate Heb 7:3 to death to get the meaning you want and yet believe in spirit mothers that the Bible doesn't teach.
donot: "There is a sin debt and you know it and you admit that it was paid by God to God"
I like the way I explain my beliefs better than the way you explain my beliefs. The scriptures don't say that Christ paid himself.
Paul explained how the concept of a mediator involves at least 3 individuals, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). It is clear that Jesus Christ mediated not to himself, but to God the Father.
Cool, man. The mediator between God and men flies right in the face of you melchizedec teachings since the lds like being priests to other people and working their way to exaltation in god-hood. As far as me explaining your beliefs; I thought you needed help understanding how silly you seem. You must know the answer to my question: WHO'S PRINCIPLE OF JUSTICE WAS MET ON THE CROSS? 1 Tim 2:5 you say? Go back two verses 1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; hmmm
What about the Alpha and Omega Rev 1:8; 22:13. Throughout the Bible, the Lord of Hosts is referred to as the rock as in Hannah's prayer: 1 Sam 2:2 So, in light of that, let's see if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ: 1 Cor 10:4 And all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
I like how all of your info that contradicts what Bible-believers believe comes from OUTSIDE the Word of the living God. Read the Bible.
smpf38. I apologize I removed one of your posts. The remove tab is next to the reply one. Throughtout the Bible, esp the OT you wee the phrase The LORD he is God. This is also translated Jehovah, he is Elohim. Thus numerous times throughout the Bible this can be found. There was no god before him, no will there be one after him. Thus Christians do not need to worship a glorified man.
Before me there was no God formed- Isaiah 43:10 I think that smpf38 needs to look long and hard at the 1st chapter of John before thinking it doesn't say that Jesus is God in the flesh. Ex. John 1:10 He was in the world and the world was MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Igazzini: There was no god before him, no will there be one after him.
First of all, there is no "after" a being who will always exist. Especially for those who will always worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. Our relationship with them will never change. God will always be our God and Father, Christ will always be our Lord and Savior.
donot: ...let's see if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ: 1 Cor 10:4 And all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
You don't need to convince the LDS of this concept. It is well taught.
"Jesus was in very deed the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, who left His Fathers royal courts on high and condescended to come to earth as a babe born in the most humble of circumstances." -Gordon B. Hinckley
So, if Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same (notice how you'll take Hinckleys word over the Word of God as if it needs confimation from him) then what's the context of Isa 43:10 before thee there was no god formed? If Jesus is not heavenly Father then why does Isaiah 9:6 call him everlasting Father?
donot: notice how you'll take Hinckleys word over the Word of God...
Actually, the quote I gave is followed by Hinckley quoting the Bible as evidence for this teaching. I was pointing out that this is established LDS doctrine.
donot: ...what's the context of Isa 43:10 before thee there was no god formed?
The context is false idols. Men were "forming" statues from gold, silver, wood, etc. and worshiping these "false gods". Yet these gods that the idols represented don't really exist.
donot: If Jesus is not heavenly Father then why does Isaiah 9:6 call him everlasting Father?
Because we are "born again" through Christ. He is our "everlasting Father" through a spiritual rebirth thanks to his atoning sacrifice.
"Because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he has spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name" (Mosiah 5-7).
You see? This is how we know that the book of mormon is a heresy. It does not line up with scripture. Jesus said "he that doeth the will of my father in heaven; the same is my mother and brother." Mt 12:48-50 Isa 43:10 So, you think God is an idol? The first one formed? What about your remark about idols represent gods that don't exist? Does an idol atop the mormon church fit that description? Dt 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
In LDS theology, the core being of Christ wasn't formed. Creation ex-nihilo would negate the possibility of Christ's own free will. In LDS theology free will is very important.
Christ's core being was not created or "formed", but he did go from one state to another: Spirit/Deity -> Mortal/Deity -> Resurrected and Immortal Deity
donot: Lord our God is one Lord: What do you think that means?
Mosiah 3:17 explains what it means (see also Isa. 43:11).
donot: When you can't make the scriptures say what you want, invoke the book of mormon.
I invoked both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. That is the best way to explain what Mormons believe and why.
Our beliefs are in harmony with the Bible.
John 5:26-27 indicates that the authority that Jesus has was "given" to him. Clearly it wasn't his own authority to begin with. The text also describes Christ as an "heir" of the Father's kingdom. If it is already his, why does he inherit it?
Sorry once again I removed your reply. Basically it related to Psalms 82 where it state you of sons of the Most High. Trouble for LDS here is that in the same breath the Psalmist then states "nevertheless, like men you shall die." These people were called sons of god, only in the sense they were leaders.
The Old Testament does say The LORD, He is God. Or Jehovah, He is Elohim. This is found numerous times.
Concerning Psalms 82, let me suggest that you read some from "thedivinecouncil (dot) com". This is work from a non-LDS Christian scholar.
Igazzini: The Old Testament does say The LORD, He is God. Or Jehovah, He is Elohim. This is found numerous times.
Elohim is often translated in English as "God". In Hebrew it can refer to 1) Deity 2) false idols, and even curiously in one case is translated as 3) angels or angel-like beings (Ps 8:5)
donotres: John 10:30 I (Jesus) and the Father are one.
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." (John 17)
Hmm... If you just read what I offered, you would realize how his listeners took that statement.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Not "a god" but "God" See? Even christ-rejectors know more about him than the LDS. You see, Christ predicted the rise of the LDS in Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets... The book of mormon has both.
He said, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (Jn 1:14 And the Word BECAME flesh) Jn 1:12 ...to them gave he power to become the sons of God. Jn 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father... Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil (not gods, nor sons of God)
You can see here that Christ clarified his position in contrast to the accusation of the Pharisees, whereby they claimed Jesus was saying he was "equal with God". Christ didn't claim to be equal with God the Father, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Christ said in response to these accusers, "the scriptures even called mortal men 'gods', why is it blasphemy if I say that I am the Son of God?" Christ is and was Deity, but did not claim to be God the Father.
Nice try. First, look at Hebrews 1:3. Also, let's look at he very next verse in chapter 14:
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me"
Now look at John 17, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one."
Context destroys your attempt to twist the meaning.
Twisting meanings? What; like in your video about Melchisedec? You take Heb 7:3 and butcher it so you can go on lecturing your opinions because no one alive on earth today knows who he was for sure. Yet you'd rather tell us what you think than admit you don't know. Just like the "ye are gods" thing. You like your ears being tickled. You rather that than lift up Jesus Christ. Real quick here's what I've learned: Jesus created nothing despite John 1 He is the god of the OT but not Heavenly Father.
I hope you are having a chance to read my posts to you before they get deleted from time to time.
You should see my second video on Melchisedec. Clearly I am not basing my view of Heb 7:3 only on that 1 verse. I look at all of the verses related to Melchisedec when forming my stance.
I did watch them. The reason I bring that up is I feel that you over-interpreted that verse. I did enjoy the videos because the topic of Melchizedec interests me. I don't think there's enough scripture to say with certainty he was or wasn't pre-incarnite Christ.
zionic: Christ never needed to go to America, cos the Gospel would have reached there eventually anyway,...
When you say "eventually", you mean like over 1,000 years later, right? Did the people for more than 1,000 years on these continents not matter?
In Gen. 49:22, Jacob was blessing his posterity, in this verse his son Joseph specifically, whose descendants would spread and "whose branches run over the wall". Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Jesus Christ referred to them in John 10:16.
zionic: Are you saying that only people of the American Continent only matter?
Not at all. I was simply saying that your argument that Christ "never needed to go to America" misses the point. Christ did what he was sent to do and what he wanted to do.
Zionic: The other sheep of the fold clearly refers to the Gentiles,
The "sheep" clearly were NOT gentiles. "I am sent ONLY to the lost SHEEP of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL." (Matt. 15:24). The Lord's personal mission was to them. The house of Israel were his sheep as he himself explained specifically. LDS are being consistent with the Biblical teaching here.
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Lori: "...if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received..."
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him." Notice that Paul was fighting against those who were changing the doctrines when Paul was still alive!
The New Testament reports people claiming that they were apostles or prophets, when they really weren't, changing the ordinances (See 1 Tim 1:6, Gal. 3:1, 2 Tim. 1: 15, 1 Jn 2:18, 2 Pet 2:11, Jn 4:1, Rev 2:2).
Original smpf38? Then why was polygamy originally wrong, then after a few years right, then after 50 more years wrong again? Why in the first recorded "first vision" did Joseph see only Jesus, but then later turned to Jesus and the father. If the preisthood was restored then how come early church leaders such as Whitmer and McClellin never heard of it before Sydney Rigdon came along.
If Joseph restored anything, then how come he had to keep restoring it?
Igazzini: why was polygamy originally wrong, then after a few years right...
It isn't a matter of it being "wrong". That isn't the LDS position. The Book of Mormon says that one should NOT practice polygamy EXCEPT when the "Lord will command his people".
In the Old Testament, the Law of Moses required polygamy if a married brother died without children. The brother in that case (who could already be married) would take the woman to wife so that she could have children in the covenant.
comments like these(referring to the video) towards the LDS church (cause there is no Mormon Church)or any other church are just ridiculous. Why would you try to tear down another group when you could strengthen your own?
Those who have actually read the Bible are aware it tells us to rebuke false teachings. Everything in the video comes from the Mormon church. If you do not like it, take it up wiht them.
Igazzini: Everything in the video comes from the Mormon church.
Several things mentioned in the video can be deduced from the Bible itself. Lucifer was a spirit, an "angel". The pre-mortal Jesus Christ is a spirit, also referred to as an "angel" (Isa. 63:9 ; Gen. 48:16). God the Father is "the Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9).
So, if God is the Father of spirits, this would include Lucifer. We also know that God is the Father of Jesus Christ. That would make them brothers.
Nothing in the Bible states Satan was a "spirit child" of God. Nothing in the Bible states any of us were ever born "spirit children" in heaven. These ideas are simply Mormon man made ideas.
God is "Father" only in the sense of creator. I get the correct idea.
Realize that we are not born children of God. John 1:12-13 makes it clear that only those who believe in (the one and only) God are the ones who "become" His children.
Igazzini: Realize that we are not born children of God. John 1:12-13
LDS are well aware of this meaning. We can be "born again" through Christ. However, the scriptures I referenced to you point to another meaning. Hebrews 12:9 has an all inclusive tone (all have a physical father, all have a spiritual Father). Acts 17:26-29 "we are the offspring of God". Note that verse 26 has the context as "all nations", not just the born again. Job 38:7 was BEFORE people were "born again" in Christ.
As I said smpf38, NO where in the Bible does it say a single word about a "mommy god." All references to the "offspring" of God are metaphors, not literal. God is the father of all of us as we are His creations. Did not need any sexual unions. God never had to have sexual relations to his own "spirit daughter" Mary.
The point of the video is that Mormons believe in a DIFFERENT Jesus. Why does that bug you so much?
Iga: NO where in the Bible does it say a single word about a "mommy god."
It truly is not explicit on this topic. I know that. And it is for a good reason (Matt. 7:6)
Iga: All references to the "offspring" of God are metaphors, not literal.
According to you.
Iga: Did not need any sexual unions.
Sex is the way that mortals produce PHYSICAL offspring. LDS don't believe that spirits are produced in the same way as physical bodies are, I hate to break it to you.
Igazzini: The point of the video is that Mormons believe in a DIFFERENT Jesus.
The video is supposed to show how "Mormons are not Christians". However, that is based on a completely made up definition of "Christian".
Furthermore, in your attempt to show that LDS believes contradict Biblical teachings ... it turns out that it is easy to point to Biblical passages that support those very same LDS beliefs.
You reference to me by way of Matt 7:6 is not appreciated. Just because you cannot give a single reference to "Mommy gods" it is not my fault. I personally do not care what method you think god begets spirit babies. The entire idea of pre-existence is purely a man made belief. (I hate to break it to you.) But this point is a distinctive difference btwn LDS and Christians. Again, this is a concept like mommy gods, it is not in the Bible.
Iga: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This does not speak of "one substance". LDS agree wholeheartedly with this statement. The Word is one of the many names for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was Deity before entering mortality, therefore worthy of the title God. Furthermore, Jesus Christ was "with" God the Father.
If this is your evidence that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the "same substance", I suggest that you rethink your beliefs.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
God Isa 40:9; Jhn 20:28; 1jhn 5:20 First and the last: Rev 1:17; 22:13 Lord God Almighty Rev 15:3 Maker and preserver of all things: Jhn 1:3,10; 1Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 2:1,10; Rev 4:11
smpf- someone has to let others know what you believe. You certainly do not see those missionaries telling people about "pre-existence" do you. And certainly not telling people about the curse you got if you did not stand valiantly for Christ in this so called pre-existence. Talk about "twisted versions." But I have already done a video on that LDS perversion.
Igazzini: You certainly do not see those missionaries telling people about "pre-existence" do you?
Absolutely. The pre-mortal existence IS discussed by missionaries to potential converts. Missionaries are required to teach a number of discussions before an investigator can be baptized.
As for the theory that people with black skin were less valiant in the pre-mortal existence, that theory was rejected by LDS Church leaders and was contrary to what Joseph Smith had taught.
Just when was this "theory" rejected? If this was only a theory, then why were blacks (in general) denied holding the priesthood? Oh, are you saying that Brigham Young's teachings on blacks was wrong?
Book of Mormon says that "he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33)
The denial of blacks to the priesthood was not a theory, but instead doctrine and policy. The reason WHY they were denied (such as who was valiant in the pre-mortal existence) is what I said was theoretical.
So the denial of blacks to the priesthood was doctrine. But you are also saying that people like Bruce McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith really did not know what they were talking about. Now I will certainly agree they did not know a lot about things spiritual. Of course if they got it wrong here, they missed a lot of other things as well.
You may also want lot look into Margaret Barker's work. She is a Methodist minister, but more importantly a world wide known Biblical scholar. She wrote:
The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, which is a very in depth discussion of the ancient belief that Yahweh was one of the sons of "Elyon", the Most High God.
In the ancient Israelite religion, it seems Yahweh was the greatest among many "gods" who were the sons of "El" and she goes through the Biblical context and history.
"The Trinitarian faith of the Church had grown from the older Hebrew belief in a pluriform deity, and so the earliest Christians exegetes had not been innovators when they understood the LORD of the Hebrew Scriptures as the Second God, the Son of El Elyon. The one they recognized as Jesus had been the LORD... Monotheism, in the way that it is usually understood...had been a consequence of changes made in the seventh century BCE, and was not part of the older faith." -M. Barker
Igazzini: How many Hebrew scripture believing Jews would agree with you on this?
Does it matter? Jews also don't accept that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I don't think what they are willing to accept matters much to my faith and belief system.
Margaret Barker is quoted more by LDS than any other group out there. Do you believe all she teaches on Old Testament theology? If not, then why not since she is your favorite Biblical scholar?
Iga: Margaret Barker is quoted more by LDS than any other group out there.
She isn't the only one saying this, not by a long shot.
Igazzini: Do you believe all she teaches on Old Testament theology?
Not at all. But when a bunch of scholars like Tigay, Barker, Mark S. Smith, etc. are all saying similar things, I think it is worth looking into. I liked Heiser's articles at thedivinecouncil (dot) com because they were short, simple, and logical on this topic.
Jeffrey H. Tigay -- Deuteronomy (JPS Torah Commentary, 1996). It is considered to be one of the top references in this field. Here is what it says about Deut 32:7-8
"This means that when God was allotting nations to the divine beings, he made the same number of nations and territories as there were such beings. Verse 9 implies that He then assigned the other nations to those divine beings, and states explicitly that He kept Israel for Himself...."
"When God organized the government of the world, He established two tiers: at the top, He Himself, "God of gods (elohei ha-elohim) and Lord of lords" (10:17), who reserved Israel for Himself, to govern personally; below Him, seventy angelic "divine beings" (benei elohim), to whom He allotted the other peoples. The conception is like that of a king or emperor ... assigning the provinces to subordinates."
Igazzini: So what? Angelic beings are not the same as "Gods."
The point my friend, is that one of the reasons you claimed Mormons are not Christian in your video is because you call us "polytheistic".
However, not only are the terms "monotheism" or "polytheism" absent from the Bible, but the concept of having beings known as "gods" that actually exist in the heavens is well accepted as part of the ancient Israelite religion. At least in scholarly circles.
The "backyard" professor Kerry Shirts is simply a hack. I might listen to him on marine biology (where he has a Phd), but his information would not pass any peer review group in any university outside BYU and its affiliates.
smpf39- almost nothing from FAIR could pass any University peer review. FAIR exists for only two reasons. Desparation and deception. Dr. John Gee's methods would get him laughed out the door of any University outside of Utah. Shirts misquotes are not very impressive.
Igazzini: ...almost nothing from FAIR could pass any University peer review.
Well, 2 minutes into this video (watch?v=lHF6AIgfv2s), he quotes a peer reviewed scholar. We can discuss only what the peer reviewed scholar researched if you would like.
((continuing from last post))"And Christianity, at the present time, is no more enlightened than other systems have been. what does the christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall and what they shall not believe in. Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."(John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, page 225)
The Journal of Discourses is not anti mormon it is the mormon prophets preaching there doctrine so how can a mormon person call there self christian when there prophets say things like this in the Journal of Discourses???????"The transactions of men are even more outrageous against the Lord,
and the only excuse for them is their
ignorance.What! are Christians
ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the
things of God as the brute beast."( John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 25)
I dont know man, If I was mormon and walked into a christian bookstore (not LDS BOOKSTORE) and went to the cult section and saw books about my religion, I would have to wonder why .... afterall, is it not a christian bookstore? Why would they stick MORMONISM books in the cult section?
smpf38- Polytheism is the belief in more than one god. You do not have to worship that god, just have to believe more than one exists. Remember that as stated in the New Testament even demons believe in Christ, that does not save them.
So as long as you believe there is more than one god out there, you are polytheistic. Do you have a dictionary definition that states otherwise?
Igazzini: Do you have a dictionary definition that states otherwise?
Yes, ... and I already gave them. Remember?
Igazzini: Remember that as stated in the New Testament even demons believe in Christ, that does not save them.
Of course I remember. I am the one who gave you the reference to that scripture.
My point is that they didn't "believe in" Christ. They acknowledged who he was and that he existed, but that doesn't mean they "believe in" Christ. They don't worship Christ.
Polytheism- belief in or worship of more than one god. So as long as you believe there is more than one god, you are polytheistic. Very plain and simple
Iga: Does it embarrass you that you are polytheistic?
When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what it is called. My original point is that LDS views are in harmony with the Bible.
Psalms 8:5 translates the word "elohim" which actually means "gods" to angels. Now these beings exist according to the Bible.
It is perfectly legitimate to say that gods exist or even to call PEOPLE "gods". Christ did so in John 10:34 while quoting the Old Testament (Psalms 82:6).
Iga: Early LDS were proud to admit their Jesus was different from the Jesus of the Bible.
I'd like to see some references for this one please.
Iga: LDS believe the Bible has been altered as to no longer be useful
Is that why Mormons study the Bible 2 years in seminary, are asked to read from it daily, and study it in more detail 2 years out of a 4 year cycle for Sunday school classes? (The Book of Mormon only gets 1 year out of the 4 year cycle.)
smpf38- See my video Mormon Hate. There was plenty of condemnation of Christians early on by LDS.
Why do you not want to admit you believe the Bible has been altered? If you want to be a Christian, then leave Mormonism and become a Christian. But stop throwing out all this patronizing nonsense.
Our bible is the king james version, thats it.............. yup, just good ole king james........ not the mormon version, not even joseph smith version, just plain ole king james, im sure that that version is a rather common one.
Iga: Why do you not want to admit you believe the Bible has been altered?
Believing that the Bible is not complete or inerrant is not the same as believing it is "no longer useful" as you accuse.
Your accusation is patently false. LDS use and study the Bible constantly. I would put up a random Mormon's knowledge of the King James Bible up against a random Christian any day of the week. Does your average High School kid wake up every morning for 2 years just to study the Bible?
The Bible is not your standard. What other Scriptures do you believe "as far as it is translated correctly"? You believe the Bible only as much as it agrees with your other works. Where it does not agree with you, you dismiss it. Thus, the Bible has no value as a guide to you. Esp since you can override it.
The Bible includes 2 of 4 of our "standard works": The Old and New Testaments.
We don't "dismiss" either one as you accuse. We don't find them "no longer useful" as you claim. Your video is based on deception.
LDS are more in line with the Bible. Who did Christ receive "authority" from? Who did he "inherit" from? Who loved him from before the foundation of the world? Who "chose" Christ?
Himself? or a separate individual, the Father?
They are "one" in the sense Christ gave in John 17.
Now exactly how many standard works do you have? In your articles of faith, does it separate the Bible into the Old and New Testaments? Not that I recall. If anything in the Bible does not agree with your other standard works you consider it wrong. Thus you consider the Bible useful only as long as it agrees with you. In other words, the Bible has no real bearing on what you believe.
Iga: Now exactly how many standard works do you have?
We have 4 standard works. 1) Old Testament 2) New Testament 3) Book of Mormon 4) Doctrine and Covenants with the Pearl of Great Price
All are studied and referenced all of the time, but each is studied more in depth in Sunday School classes individually on a 4 year cycle. For example, last year was the New Testament and this year is the BoM.
OK, you lung PoG with D&C. I thought they were separate. I did not realize you split the Bible in two. But realize the Bible is secondary to the others. If you do not like something in the Bible, you can discard it as being wrong.
I don't even think you can think of it as "secondary".
For example, in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament, there are references to the fall of Adam. Without the Old Testament and the book of Genesis, it wouldn't be clear exactly what is being discussed. In order to have the whole picture, you need the Old Testament.
Likewise, the New Testament descriptions of Christ's mortal ministry is very important to Mormons. We don't "discard" any of it.
AGAIN, You do not take the Bible at face value. You have to compare it to your church teachings instead of comparing your church teachings to the word of God.
Igazzini: You do not take the Bible at face value.
We take the Bible for what it is. Inspired men of God were impressed to write according to the Spirit, the words of God. Over the millenia, the texts have been copied, recopied, and sometimes rewritten (Go to the Backyardprofessor's videos "Biblical Context" (start with the 2nd video) where he quotes world class CHRISTIAN Biblical scholars on this).
SOME of those writings were collected, compiled to make the Bible.
What a joke. Yes, you can find some changes in spelling and copist errors. But nothing that shows any change in meaning. If you fell compelled to make a big deal about changes then you should address the changes btwn the Book of Commandments and Doctrines & Covenants. Realize Book of Commandments makes no mention of the LDS priesthood. NOTHING. That is simply because it was a later invention of Smith and Rigdon.
Igazzini: But nothing that shows any change in meaning.
You are wrong on this and if you would have watched the Backyardprofessor's videos on this you would here where he quotes Biblical scholars on what changes DO have doctrinal significance.
Lut let's start with one concept in particular. You should go to w w w (dot) the divinecouncil (dot) com
Read the article about Psalm 82 (this is Michael Heizer by the way. He is an Evangelical but also a PhD)
Christian means *follower of christ*
Mormans follow joseph smith
they say they believe in jesus and for the most part they do. whats messed up is they have this man who practiced witchcraft who had led em into a a STRANGE religon in which mr smiths words are more truer than christs. I challenge ANY morman to a debate-->tallnavy@gmail.com
MyBlackAA 2 months ago
This type of hateful rhetoric and misinformation is really sad. I am LDS, and I AM a Christian, first and foremost! Of course nothing I can say to you will change your mind. Your heart is too hardened to listen. A person's faith is a very personal thing. My salvation is between me and my God, the One true God of the universe; and my Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you believe differently than I do, (as long as you follow Christ) that is between you and God, .
God bless.
TheOriginalAnalogKid 10 months ago
@TheOriginalAnalogKid I agree that it is a very personal thing to ask Satan's spirit brother to be your personal savior. If I offend you, well good. All I have done is lay out what LDS beliefs are.
lgazzini 10 months ago
@lgazzini
Throwing stones now, huh?...
Typical. Why can I not find any intelligent discussion or debate here on you-tube? I am sorry I mistook you for an intelligent, rational person; since you have now made it clear that your only goal is to OFFEND people. My goal is to speak truth, therefore there is no point in continuing any discussion here.
I pray your eyes will be opened to truth, and your heart softened. (John 12: 39-40)
TheOriginalAnalogKid 10 months ago
@TheOriginalAnalogKid
Do you believe Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers? If so, then just how am I "throwing stone?" Of course, if your beliefs are nothing more than just stones, then I am guilty as charged.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
lgazzini 10 months ago
@TheOriginalAnalogKid What you believe is apparently between you and Satan's spirit brother.
lgazzini 7 months ago
In Isaiah, "Lucifer" is NOT Satan. He is a Babylonian king who would fall like Satan did. The Almighty never revealed anything to Joseph Smith. Either Joseph and Sidney made it all up, or the angel macaroni and Satan helped invent their evil doctrines. I don't see a problem. Gordon B. Hinkley Fudd said that mormons do not have the same Jesus as Christians do. Mormons reverence a guy named Jesus who was the spirit brother of a king of Babylon.. (That) is another gospel.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
we are christian everyone that believes in christ is christian thats why the word christ is in christian. We dont not think Jesus is god there is only one god and that is his father and our father in heaven. And yes jesus and satan were spirit brothers that doesnt mean they are the same.No he is not the second person of the trinity! No its not different from the bible it is the same.
LovieDovieBear 1 year ago
@LovieDovieBear Can you name one place in the Bible that states Jesus and Satan are brothers? I'll even give you a little room to work here. Can you name anywhere in the Book of Mormon where is states Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers?
lgazzini 1 year ago
@LovieDovieBear You say there is only one god. That I agree with, but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught there are millions of gods. I am glad you disagree with them.
lgazzini 1 year ago
@lgazzini Umm no they didnt who ever told u that is confused and dnt even say it was a mormon who told u that cuz i know it wasnt
LovieDovieBear 1 year ago
they have the Doctrine about lying for the Lord...and many gods can happen in the Mormon theology. My question if you die and are a good Mormon and do everything that you can like the Mormon prophets supposed to do, then why is Moroni an angel rather than a god. That alone to me is a contradiction in terms. But alas you Mormons always turn things so that they look better in your eyes. you only listen to what your itching ears want to hear
bigbear6718 1 year ago
Why do Mormons get upset when a Christian challenges them? Didn't Joseph Smith do this very thing when he claimed that God told him that the churches were "all wrong," that their creeds "were an abomination," and that their professors "were all corrupt"?
redboxgift 1 year ago
They get upset because of their insecurity. Thus I have hope for them when they display this kind of stuff.
lgazzini 1 year ago
@lgazzini we do not so stop puting out all of these lies just because u dnt like the church doesnt mean u can go and lie about its because thats all ur puting out is lies and this is coming from a true mormons mouth
LovieDovieBear 1 year ago
Igazzini, I just happened across this bit about Are Mormons Christians and came upon your posts really going for the jugular and deliberately making inflammatory remarks. Who cares if Jesus is white or black or technicolor? Whats Christian about your hate filled ravings?
qigonghealer 1 year ago
qigong, Please be specific as to what is incorrect in this video. It is hate to reveal the truth of your religion?
lgazzini 1 year ago
It's like this. I have closely looked at many religions, Christian and non Christian and What you are putting up as fact is only your opinion. Nowhere do you declare your religion so what is Christian about you? If you claim to be a Christian act like one and stop your bloody minded ravings. Where, in your particular scriptures, does it say to attack other faiths ?
What does it matter if Jesus if white or black or brindle?
qigonghealer 1 year ago
And if the Mormons are not Christians, why have trey called their religion the Church Of Jesus Christ?
You say they didn't want to be known as Christians to start with. If what you are doing is Christian, I can see why.
If , as you say, they consider the bible to be useless, why do they always quote from it, just like all other Christian denominations.
End of discussion
qigonghealer 1 year ago
AGAIN, what exactly is incorrect in the video? If you cannot tell me, then please stop talking to hear your own ears roar.
As far as the Bible being useless. Ex. We read that Jesus is the only begotten Son. Mormons say Jesus is the only begotten Son in the flesh. Most everything has an addition to it in order to bend it to their own belief system.
lgazzini 1 year ago
Answer to question at 0:10 YES WE ARE!!!!
carrieicecream 2 years ago
So, do you believe Jesus is white, or black?
lgazzini 2 years ago
@carrie, If you claim to be a member of PETA, then everyone would know you are a vegetarian. If you claim to be a Mormon, that means you believe their doctrines. Mormon doctrine is anti bilbical. For example. You believe man can progress to godhood. The bible says in Is 43:10 "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
This is just one of many anti Bible, anti Christian teachings.
redboxgift 1 year ago
@redboxgift we have a different version of the bible than you, its the King James version.
carrieicecream 1 year ago
@carrieicecream Not exactly sure what that has to do with anything. The English language changes over time. You and I do not speak in the 1611 style of English. Modern translations speak to us in the common English language of our day. Still, several Christians still use the King James Bible.
Again, you comment has nothing to do with the video.
lgazzini 1 year ago
well, I was trying to point out that not all of us are fallen angels. =/ I am not being double minded nor am I lying. So no, it's not embarrassing for me, yet it might be for you since you're the one that's trying to attack me and other LDS belief.
Musicforme89 2 years ago
You said "theses opinions are shockingly untrue", Now you are agreeing that I am correct. I NEVER said anything about a "fallen angel." You in fact believe Satan to be your spirit brother. You in fact believe Satan to be a spirit brother of Christ. That is NOT found anywhere in the Bible. If anything I have said is untrue, then point that out. Otherwise stop making baseless accusations.
lgazzini 2 years ago
Satan is your spirit brother, but so is Jesus. The bible may not say that but the Book of Mormon another testament of Jesus Christ says it.
carrieicecream 2 years ago
Just curious, where in the Book of Mormon does it state that?
lgazzini 2 years ago
well. To put it straightly. Yes... Satan was created by the same God who created me BUT satan/lucifer is a fallen angel, which is due to the freedom of choice that God gave us. He wanted the glory of being Jesus, tried to take it, but it was not for him. So he was cast out of heaven.
Musicforme89 2 years ago
Thanks for the honesty. You do indeed think that Satan is your spirit brother. You are double minded here. First you say this is "untrue", then when backed in a corner admit that it is the way you believe. Just why did you have to lie about this? It is embarrassing?
lgazzini 2 years ago
Holy moly where in the world did you pull these opinions from?!??!?! they are shockingly untrue, and I would kindly advice you to do more research, and perhaps take the time to talk to your local missionaries about these problems that you are coming up with so you can find out the truth...
Musicforme89 2 years ago
Let's see if you can give a straight answer. Is Satan a spirit child of your God the Father? Are you a spirit child of your God the Father? Thus, are you a spirit brother (or sister) to Satan?
lgazzini 2 years ago
I would like to see your answers to all of those questions.
mjolnir18889 2 years ago
Thank you stuffybear for admitting I am not so stupid as you first claimed. I am not arrogrant enough to tell anyone they should shut their mouth. You keep talking and we will see what little you actually know. BTW, no where in the Bible does it say Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. That is a MORMON thing.
lgazzini 2 years ago
the cross is of lesser importance because we do not worship it. we do not worship his death. we worship Christs resurrection and his atonement. we believe we are all spirit brothers and sisters and that god is our eternal father in heaven. we believe the bible, to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Do you even know what "covenants" mean? its the same as commandments. the books title still is the same.you know NADA
bropoll9 2 years ago
Interesting, no where in your comments does it say anything about Christ's sacrifice. The cross is a symbol of that sacrifice. Unless you take that to heart, you will always be lost.
lgazzini 2 years ago
yes, the cross is a symbol of his sacrifice, but it is not the sacrifice we worship. we worship him and the sacrifice he had in the garden of Gethsemane, where he atoned for all our sins.
bropoll9 2 years ago
I personally have never met anyone who worshipped a cross. But I know many who praise Christ for what He did on the cross. In the garden he had some bleeding. On the cross he truly shed his blood. In the Old Testament Temple in Jerusalem, they did not just get a little blood from a lamb and then let it go. It was sacrificed. Big difference.
lgazzini 2 years ago
so you are calling, all the sins and pain in the world that anyone has ever felt and will ever feel, a little bleeding?
bropoll9 2 years ago
Becuase of His anguish, Christ sweated blood. The blood in the garden did not atone for our sins.
Gal 6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Where in the Bible do you get your teaching?
lgazzini 2 years ago
stuffybear- I'm sorry you little of your own faith. Milton R. Hunter wrote, "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws" (G.T.A., p. 51).
Bruce McConkie "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked Him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent while yet in His pre-existent state" (M.D., p. 129).
lgazzini 2 years ago
If mormons are Christians ask them if you can be a mormon and not believe JS was a true prophet.
Mormons believe in JS's fictitious character 'mormon' that's why they're called mormons.
Christians don't believe in JS, they believe in Jesus Christ. They were called Christians first in Antioch. They are the real 'latter day saints'.
'Saint' is KJV word for believer in the real Jesus, it's not a JW or a Moonie or Unitarian or Mormon who have their own version of 'Jesus'.
hopeforyourlife 2 years ago
momos are not christian momos beleive you can be god. that is insulting being compared to a mormon.
toajaller1 3 years ago 5
Christ "inherits" from God the Father. Calls God the Father "your God and my God". God the Father "gave" Christ authority. God the Father "sent" Jesus Christ to do the "Father's will", not his own will. Christ prayed to his Father. After Christ's resurrection, he said, "touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father".
Now you expect LDS to believe that Christ needed to inherit that which was already his? Ascend to himself? Do the will of not himself, but instead himself?
smpf38 3 years ago
No human can be in the presence of God and live. As seen in Philippians 2 God the Son made himself nothing, taking the form of a human. God the Son was always in submission to the Father. Notice, nowhere in the Bible does it say there is a Heavenly mother. So yes, your concept is screwed up.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: God the Son made himself nothing, taking the form of a human.
Jesus was "nothing"? Col. 2:9 says that within Jesus Christ "dwells the fullness of Deity bodily". Christ is both fully human and fully divine.
Igazzini: God the Son was always in submission to the Father.
Agreed.
Igazzini: Notice, nowhere in the Bible does it say there is a Heavenly mother.
The Pythagorean theorem isn't in the Bible either. That doesn't mean it isn't true. See John 21:25.
smpf38 3 years ago
Yes smpf38, In Phillipians 2:7 it states Jesus made himself nothing. I can understand LDS having trouble with the Bible. What I cannot understand is what the Pythagorean theorem has to do with spiritual matters. Maybe that is in one of your numerous so called scriptures.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: "Phillipians 2:7 it states Jesus made himself nothing."
So, was Jesus "nothing"? Or was he "equal to God" and "in the FORM of God"? (Phil 2:6)
Jesus Christ was fully Deity and also fully man. His spirit was perfect from before mortality, yet he was born in the most humble of circumstances: poor, in a manger, "of no reputation" (Phil 2:7).
Jesus was the Son of God in the flesh and the Savior of mankind thanks to what he did for us during his mission in mortality.
smpf38 3 years ago
Igazzini: No human can be in the presence of God and live.
It is the "natural man" who cannot see God. Thanks to Christ, the natural man can be removed from men so that they can endure God's presence. Moses is one example (Exodus 32:11) as the natural man was removed, he was changed (Ex 34:29-30,33,35). This kind of "transfiguration" occurred with Jesus in the New Testament as well. And see also Matthew 5:8 which says we can.
The point is, you need to look at ALL the text on this subject.
smpf38 3 years ago
smpf38- You are quite the comedian. You tell me to look at all the text but totally ignore Ex 33:18-23. It does include "you cannot see my face, fro man shall not see me and live." concerning Mat 5:8, it states the pure in heart shall see God. Are you implying Joseph was pure in heart. Even though he was conning all those women into his sham marriages, all behind his wife's back. Is that what is pure in heart to LDS?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: You tell me to look at all the text but totally ignore Ex 33:18-23.
I don't ignore that at all. Those were two different occasions. In one occasion, Moses "spoke to the Lord face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend". On another occasion, the Lord did not allow Moses to see his face. The different occasions had different circumstances and the Lord was willing to show Moses only what he was able to handle at those different times.
smpf38 3 years ago
Exodus 33, Moses "spoke to the Lord face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend".
Turn to your friend and speak to that person. This is what the text says Moses' experience was like. (See also Ex 24:10)
Then Moses says "shew me thy glory". Moses had seen the form of God, now he wanted to see the glory within Him.
The problem is that Moses was still a mortal man. He couldn't handle seeing all of God's glory, therefore, God protected Moses by only showing some glory, not all of it.
smpf38 3 years ago
There is something called hyperbole. Not everything spoken is literal. That is why we need to read and not just cherry pick verses out of context.
By the way, What did Joseph mean when he claimed there were Quaker like people living on the moon?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: There is something called hyperbole. Not everything spoken is literal.
I agree that not everything spoken is literal. However, there is nothing in these verses that would say that this is not meant to be literal. And I would LOVE to talk about the context.
Iga: What did Joseph mean when he claimed there were Quaker like people living on the moon?
I don't know. There was a common rumor about these people at the time. Someone said that someone said that Joseph Smith spoke about it.
smpf38 3 years ago
smpf3- so you agree that Joseph believed men lived on the moon. He certainly talked as if he knew a good bit about them. Brigham Young believed people lived on the sun, was he correct?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini-so you agree that Joseph believed men lived on the moon.
Not at all. If you look into it, you will find exactly what I said. There was a general belief/rumor at the time concerning men living on the moon (it was printed in some newspaper of some kind in the early 1800's - non-LDS having nothing to do with Mormons).
Then at some point someone said, that another person said, that Joseph Smith had spoken about it as well. Nobody knows if or what Joseph said about the subject.
smpf38 3 years ago
"Do the will of himself, not himself"
Now your just being a smart-mouth. Isaiah 53:6 says "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
So, he paid himself for our sins. As far as what I expect the LDS to believe I can't even guess where I should begin but the doctrin of the trinity is one area where you and I disagree and the LDS have several unscriptual beliefs. You need to get out of there.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: Isaiah 53:6 "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." So, he paid himself for our sins.
Taking upon himself the burden of sin is not the same as someone who "paid himself" as you claim. That scripture doesn't even come close to saying that he paid himself. It was the eternal principle of justice that was paid (while preserving the principle of mercy).
I can take upon myself my family's debt and pay it off if they accept that offer. When I pay it goes to the credit card company.
smpf38 3 years ago
Psalm 51 against thee and THEE ONLY have I sinned
There is a sin debt and you know it and you admit that it was paid by God to God for us but you don't want to face it head-on so you come at it sideways and say He paid "the eternal principle of justice." Well, whose principle is it? As far as the Melchisedec vid: it's not that you made the video giving your veiw. It's how you interperate Heb 7:3 to death to get the meaning you want and yet believe in spirit mothers that the Bible doesn't teach.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: "There is a sin debt and you know it and you admit that it was paid by God to God"
I like the way I explain my beliefs better than the way you explain my beliefs. The scriptures don't say that Christ paid himself.
Paul explained how the concept of a mediator involves at least 3 individuals, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). It is clear that Jesus Christ mediated not to himself, but to God the Father.
smpf38 3 years ago
Cool, man. The mediator between God and men flies right in the face of you melchizedec teachings since the lds like being priests to other people and working their way to exaltation in god-hood. As far as me explaining your beliefs; I thought you needed help understanding how silly you seem. You must know the answer to my question: WHO'S PRINCIPLE OF JUSTICE WAS MET ON THE CROSS? 1 Tim 2:5 you say? Go back two verses 1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; hmmm
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: The mediator between God and men flies right in the face of you melchizedec teachings...
You keep changing the subject, and no it does not. The priesthood in the LDS church is not responsible for paying the sin debt for individuals.
donot: ...the lds like being priests to other people and working their way to exaltation in god-hood.
Also false. According to LDS theology, just 1 sin separates man from God. We could "work" our entire lifetime and not be able to redeem ourselves.
smpf38 3 years ago
What about the Alpha and Omega Rev 1:8; 22:13. Throughout the Bible, the Lord of Hosts is referred to as the rock as in Hannah's prayer: 1 Sam 2:2 So, in light of that, let's see if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ: 1 Cor 10:4 And all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
I like how all of your info that contradicts what Bible-believers believe comes from OUTSIDE the Word of the living God. Read the Bible.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
smpf38. I apologize I removed one of your posts. The remove tab is next to the reply one. Throughtout the Bible, esp the OT you wee the phrase The LORD he is God. This is also translated Jehovah, he is Elohim. Thus numerous times throughout the Bible this can be found. There was no god before him, no will there be one after him. Thus Christians do not need to worship a glorified man.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Before me there was no God formed- Isaiah 43:10 I think that smpf38 needs to look long and hard at the 1st chapter of John before thinking it doesn't say that Jesus is God in the flesh. Ex. John 1:10 He was in the world and the world was MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The world knew him not.
Joseph Smith knew him not.
The LDS know him not.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: I think that smpf38 needs to look long and hard at the 1st chapter of John before thinking it doesn't say that Jesus is God in the flesh.
Jesus IS God in the flesh according to LDS doctrine. He was Yahweh/Jehovah of the Old Testament. However, He is not God the Father.
Christ was also the Creator. All things were created through and by Him. You won't find LDS disagreeing with the first chapter of John.
Nor do we disagree with Isaiah 43:10, as long as you understand the context.
smpf38 3 years ago
Igazzini: There was no god before him, no will there be one after him.
First of all, there is no "after" a being who will always exist. Especially for those who will always worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. Our relationship with them will never change. God will always be our God and Father, Christ will always be our Lord and Savior.
smpf38 3 years ago
donot: ...let's see if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ: 1 Cor 10:4 And all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
You don't need to convince the LDS of this concept. It is well taught.
"Jesus was in very deed the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, who left His Fathers royal courts on high and condescended to come to earth as a babe born in the most humble of circumstances." -Gordon B. Hinckley
smpf38 3 years ago
So, if Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same (notice how you'll take Hinckleys word over the Word of God as if it needs confimation from him) then what's the context of Isa 43:10 before thee there was no god formed? If Jesus is not heavenly Father then why does Isaiah 9:6 call him everlasting Father?
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: notice how you'll take Hinckleys word over the Word of God...
Actually, the quote I gave is followed by Hinckley quoting the Bible as evidence for this teaching. I was pointing out that this is established LDS doctrine.
donot: ...what's the context of Isa 43:10 before thee there was no god formed?
The context is false idols. Men were "forming" statues from gold, silver, wood, etc. and worshiping these "false gods". Yet these gods that the idols represented don't really exist.
smpf38 3 years ago
donot: If Jesus is not heavenly Father then why does Isaiah 9:6 call him everlasting Father?
Because we are "born again" through Christ. He is our "everlasting Father" through a spiritual rebirth thanks to his atoning sacrifice.
"Because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he has spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name" (Mosiah 5-7).
smpf38 3 years ago
You see? This is how we know that the book of mormon is a heresy. It does not line up with scripture. Jesus said "he that doeth the will of my father in heaven; the same is my mother and brother." Mt 12:48-50 Isa 43:10 So, you think God is an idol? The first one formed? What about your remark about idols represent gods that don't exist? Does an idol atop the mormon church fit that description? Dt 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
What do you think that means?
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: Isa 43:10 So, you think God is an idol? The first one formed?
No. God was not formed by man's hands, unlike the false idols being referred to here. That is the contrast.
donot: This is how we know that the book of mormon is a heresy. It does not line up with scripture.
So, you don't believe that we can be born again in Christ? By the way, LDS are quite in agreement with Mt 12:48-50.
donot: Does an idol atop the mormon church fit that description?
We don't worship statues.
smpf38 3 years ago
donot: The first one formed?
In LDS theology, the core being of Christ wasn't formed. Creation ex-nihilo would negate the possibility of Christ's own free will. In LDS theology free will is very important.
Christ's core being was not created or "formed", but he did go from one state to another: Spirit/Deity -> Mortal/Deity -> Resurrected and Immortal Deity
donot: Lord our God is one Lord: What do you think that means?
Mosiah 3:17 explains what it means (see also Isa. 43:11).
smpf38 3 years ago
When you can't make the scriptures say what you want, invoke the book of mormon. Why not? It is NOT the Word of God.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: When you can't make the scriptures say what you want, invoke the book of mormon.
I invoked both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. That is the best way to explain what Mormons believe and why.
Our beliefs are in harmony with the Bible.
John 5:26-27 indicates that the authority that Jesus has was "given" to him. Clearly it wasn't his own authority to begin with. The text also describes Christ as an "heir" of the Father's kingdom. If it is already his, why does he inherit it?
smpf38 3 years ago
Sorry once again I removed your reply. Basically it related to Psalms 82 where it state you of sons of the Most High. Trouble for LDS here is that in the same breath the Psalmist then states "nevertheless, like men you shall die." These people were called sons of god, only in the sense they were leaders.
The Old Testament does say The LORD, He is God. Or Jehovah, He is Elohim. This is found numerous times.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Concerning Psalms 82, let me suggest that you read some from "thedivinecouncil (dot) com". This is work from a non-LDS Christian scholar.
Igazzini: The Old Testament does say The LORD, He is God. Or Jehovah, He is Elohim. This is found numerous times.
Elohim is often translated in English as "God". In Hebrew it can refer to 1) Deity 2) false idols, and even curiously in one case is translated as 3) angels or angel-like beings (Ps 8:5)
LDS also say that Christ is "God", meaning Deity.
smpf38 3 years ago
John 10:30 I (Jesus) and the Father are one.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donotres: John 10:30 I (Jesus) and the Father are one.
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." (John 17)
smpf38 3 years ago
Hmm... If you just read what I offered, you would realize how his listeners took that statement.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Not "a god" but "God" See? Even christ-rejectors know more about him than the LDS. You see, Christ predicted the rise of the LDS in Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets... The book of mormon has both.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: John 10:33 Not "a god" but "God" See?
I would love for you to post this quote in context. What what Christ's reply to their accusation?
smpf38 3 years ago
He said, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (Jn 1:14 And the Word BECAME flesh) Jn 1:12 ...to them gave he power to become the sons of God. Jn 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father... Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil (not gods, nor sons of God)
donotresussitate 3 years ago
You can see here that Christ clarified his position in contrast to the accusation of the Pharisees, whereby they claimed Jesus was saying he was "equal with God". Christ didn't claim to be equal with God the Father, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Christ said in response to these accusers, "the scriptures even called mortal men 'gods', why is it blasphemy if I say that I am the Son of God?" Christ is and was Deity, but did not claim to be God the Father.
smpf38 3 years ago
"he that hath seen me hath seen the Father..."
Nice try. First, look at Hebrews 1:3. Also, let's look at he very next verse in chapter 14:
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me"
Now look at John 17, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one."
Context destroys your attempt to twist the meaning.
smpf38 3 years ago
Twisting meanings? What; like in your video about Melchisedec? You take Heb 7:3 and butcher it so you can go on lecturing your opinions because no one alive on earth today knows who he was for sure. Yet you'd rather tell us what you think than admit you don't know. Just like the "ye are gods" thing. You like your ears being tickled. You rather that than lift up Jesus Christ. Real quick here's what I've learned: Jesus created nothing despite John 1 He is the god of the OT but not Heavenly Father.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
donot: because no one alive on earth today knows who he was for sure. Yet you'd rather tell us what you think than admit you don't know.
That video was in response to an Anti-Mormon who CAME TO ME claiming that Melchizedec was Jesus. I gave my view on why I don't think that is the case.
donot: ...here's what I've learned: Jesus created nothing despite John 1
According to whom? LDS believe that the Heavens the Earth and all things within were created by and through Jesus Christ.
smpf38 3 years ago
I hope you are having a chance to read my posts to you before they get deleted from time to time.
You should see my second video on Melchisedec. Clearly I am not basing my view of Heb 7:3 only on that 1 verse. I look at all of the verses related to Melchisedec when forming my stance.
smpf38 3 years ago
I did watch them. The reason I bring that up is I feel that you over-interpreted that verse. I did enjoy the videos because the topic of Melchizedec interests me. I don't think there's enough scripture to say with certainty he was or wasn't pre-incarnite Christ.
donotresussitate 3 years ago
Christ never needed to go to America, cos the Gospel would have reached there eventually anyway, as it did.
zionic144nz 3 years ago
zionic: Christ never needed to go to America, cos the Gospel would have reached there eventually anyway,...
When you say "eventually", you mean like over 1,000 years later, right? Did the people for more than 1,000 years on these continents not matter?
In Gen. 49:22, Jacob was blessing his posterity, in this verse his son Joseph specifically, whose descendants would spread and "whose branches run over the wall". Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Jesus Christ referred to them in John 10:16.
smpf38 3 years ago
Are you saying that only people of the American Continent only matter?
There are still parts of the Earth where the Gospel has not yet reached. That doesnt mean that those souls dont matter.
Remember there are 2 ressurections: 1 at the start of the Millenium and 1 at the end. Every soul will get a chance.
zionic144nz 3 years ago
zionic: Are you saying that only people of the American Continent only matter?
Not at all. I was simply saying that your argument that Christ "never needed to go to America" misses the point. Christ did what he was sent to do and what he wanted to do.
smpf38 3 years ago
As for Lehi, he was one of Mr Joseph Smiths characters in his story the Book of Mormon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The other sheep of the fold clearly refers to the Gentiles, whom the Gospel blessings were about to be bestowed upon, (in Christs time).
zionic144nz 3 years ago
Zionic: The other sheep of the fold clearly refers to the Gentiles,
The "sheep" clearly were NOT gentiles. "I am sent ONLY to the lost SHEEP of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL." (Matt. 15:24). The Lord's personal mission was to them. The house of Israel were his sheep as he himself explained specifically. LDS are being consistent with the Biblical teaching here.
smpf38 3 years ago
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Galatians 1:6-9
LoriAMeyers 3 years ago
Lori: "...if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received..."
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him." Notice that Paul was fighting against those who were changing the doctrines when Paul was still alive!
The New Testament reports people claiming that they were apostles or prophets, when they really weren't, changing the ordinances (See 1 Tim 1:6, Gal. 3:1, 2 Tim. 1: 15, 1 Jn 2:18, 2 Pet 2:11, Jn 4:1, Rev 2:2).
LDS returned to the original religion.
smpf38 3 years ago
Original smpf38? Then why was polygamy originally wrong, then after a few years right, then after 50 more years wrong again? Why in the first recorded "first vision" did Joseph see only Jesus, but then later turned to Jesus and the father. If the preisthood was restored then how come early church leaders such as Whitmer and McClellin never heard of it before Sydney Rigdon came along.
If Joseph restored anything, then how come he had to keep restoring it?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: why was polygamy originally wrong, then after a few years right...
It isn't a matter of it being "wrong". That isn't the LDS position. The Book of Mormon says that one should NOT practice polygamy EXCEPT when the "Lord will command his people".
In the Old Testament, the Law of Moses required polygamy if a married brother died without children. The brother in that case (who could already be married) would take the woman to wife so that she could have children in the covenant.
smpf38 3 years ago
comments like these(referring to the video) towards the LDS church (cause there is no Mormon Church)or any other church are just ridiculous. Why would you try to tear down another group when you could strengthen your own?
702otown 3 years ago
Those who have actually read the Bible are aware it tells us to rebuke false teachings. Everything in the video comes from the Mormon church. If you do not like it, take it up wiht them.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: Everything in the video comes from the Mormon church.
Several things mentioned in the video can be deduced from the Bible itself. Lucifer was a spirit, an "angel". The pre-mortal Jesus Christ is a spirit, also referred to as an "angel" (Isa. 63:9 ; Gen. 48:16). God the Father is "the Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9).
So, if God is the Father of spirits, this would include Lucifer. We also know that God is the Father of Jesus Christ. That would make them brothers.
smpf38 3 years ago
Nothing in the Bible states Satan was a "spirit child" of God. Nothing in the Bible states any of us were ever born "spirit children" in heaven. These ideas are simply Mormon man made ideas.
lgazzini 3 years ago
The Bible indicates that God is the "Father of Spirits". Since Lucifer was a spirit, then you get the idea.
smpf38 3 years ago
God is "Father" only in the sense of creator. I get the correct idea.
Realize that we are not born children of God. John 1:12-13 makes it clear that only those who believe in (the one and only) God are the ones who "become" His children.
Not one thing in the Bible about a mommy god.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: Realize that we are not born children of God. John 1:12-13
LDS are well aware of this meaning. We can be "born again" through Christ. However, the scriptures I referenced to you point to another meaning. Hebrews 12:9 has an all inclusive tone (all have a physical father, all have a spiritual Father). Acts 17:26-29 "we are the offspring of God". Note that verse 26 has the context as "all nations", not just the born again. Job 38:7 was BEFORE people were "born again" in Christ.
smpf38 3 years ago
As I said smpf38, NO where in the Bible does it say a single word about a "mommy god." All references to the "offspring" of God are metaphors, not literal. God is the father of all of us as we are His creations. Did not need any sexual unions. God never had to have sexual relations to his own "spirit daughter" Mary.
The point of the video is that Mormons believe in a DIFFERENT Jesus. Why does that bug you so much?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: NO where in the Bible does it say a single word about a "mommy god."
It truly is not explicit on this topic. I know that. And it is for a good reason (Matt. 7:6)
Iga: All references to the "offspring" of God are metaphors, not literal.
According to you.
Iga: Did not need any sexual unions.
Sex is the way that mortals produce PHYSICAL offspring. LDS don't believe that spirits are produced in the same way as physical bodies are, I hate to break it to you.
smpf38 3 years ago
Igazzini: The point of the video is that Mormons believe in a DIFFERENT Jesus.
The video is supposed to show how "Mormons are not Christians". However, that is based on a completely made up definition of "Christian".
Furthermore, in your attempt to show that LDS believes contradict Biblical teachings ... it turns out that it is easy to point to Biblical passages that support those very same LDS beliefs.
smpf38 3 years ago
You reference to me by way of Matt 7:6 is not appreciated. Just because you cannot give a single reference to "Mommy gods" it is not my fault. I personally do not care what method you think god begets spirit babies. The entire idea of pre-existence is purely a man made belief. (I hate to break it to you.) But this point is a distinctive difference btwn LDS and Christians. Again, this is a concept like mommy gods, it is not in the Bible.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: ...this is a concept like mommy gods, it is not in the Bible.
The doctrine that the Father and the Son are "one substance" is not in the Bible, and you believe it.
The difference is that you CLAIM to believe ONLY what the Bible teaches, but you don't.
Mormons on the other hand proudly admit that we believe the Bible AND more.
smpf38 3 years ago
smac: The doctrine that the Father adn the Son are "one substance" is not in the Bible.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Now if that does not sound familiar to you I guess I should not be surprised.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This does not speak of "one substance". LDS agree wholeheartedly with this statement. The Word is one of the many names for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was Deity before entering mortality, therefore worthy of the title God. Furthermore, Jesus Christ was "with" God the Father.
If this is your evidence that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the "same substance", I suggest that you rethink your beliefs.
smpf38 3 years ago
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
God Isa 40:9; Jhn 20:28; 1jhn 5:20 First and the last: Rev 1:17; 22:13 Lord God Almighty Rev 15:3 Maker and preserver of all things: Jhn 1:3,10; 1Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 2:1,10; Rev 4:11
Is that enough?
donotresussitate 3 years ago
Igazzini: I personally do not care what method you think god begets spirit babies.
I know you don't. You would prefer to ignore what we actually believe, in order to present to others a twisted version of it.
smpf38 3 years ago
smpf- someone has to let others know what you believe. You certainly do not see those missionaries telling people about "pre-existence" do you. And certainly not telling people about the curse you got if you did not stand valiantly for Christ in this so called pre-existence. Talk about "twisted versions." But I have already done a video on that LDS perversion.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: You certainly do not see those missionaries telling people about "pre-existence" do you?
Absolutely. The pre-mortal existence IS discussed by missionaries to potential converts. Missionaries are required to teach a number of discussions before an investigator can be baptized.
As for the theory that people with black skin were less valiant in the pre-mortal existence, that theory was rejected by LDS Church leaders and was contrary to what Joseph Smith had taught.
smpf38 3 years ago
Just when was this "theory" rejected? If this was only a theory, then why were blacks (in general) denied holding the priesthood? Oh, are you saying that Brigham Young's teachings on blacks was wrong?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Book of Mormon says that "he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33)
The denial of blacks to the priesthood was not a theory, but instead doctrine and policy. The reason WHY they were denied (such as who was valiant in the pre-mortal existence) is what I said was theoretical.
smpf38 3 years ago
So the denial of blacks to the priesthood was doctrine. But you are also saying that people like Bruce McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith really did not know what they were talking about. Now I will certainly agree they did not know a lot about things spiritual. Of course if they got it wrong here, they missed a lot of other things as well.
lgazzini 3 years ago
You may also want lot look into Margaret Barker's work. She is a Methodist minister, but more importantly a world wide known Biblical scholar. She wrote:
The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, which is a very in depth discussion of the ancient belief that Yahweh was one of the sons of "Elyon", the Most High God.
In the ancient Israelite religion, it seems Yahweh was the greatest among many "gods" who were the sons of "El" and she goes through the Biblical context and history.
smpf38 3 years ago
"The Trinitarian faith of the Church had grown from the older Hebrew belief in a pluriform deity, and so the earliest Christians exegetes had not been innovators when they understood the LORD of the Hebrew Scriptures as the Second God, the Son of El Elyon. The one they recognized as Jesus had been the LORD... Monotheism, in the way that it is usually understood...had been a consequence of changes made in the seventh century BCE, and was not part of the older faith." -M. Barker
smpf38 3 years ago
All speculation. How many Hebrew scripture believing Jews would agree with you on this?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: How many Hebrew scripture believing Jews would agree with you on this?
Does it matter? Jews also don't accept that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I don't think what they are willing to accept matters much to my faith and belief system.
smpf38 3 years ago
Margaret Barker is quoted more by LDS than any other group out there. Do you believe all she teaches on Old Testament theology? If not, then why not since she is your favorite Biblical scholar?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: Margaret Barker is quoted more by LDS than any other group out there.
She isn't the only one saying this, not by a long shot.
Igazzini: Do you believe all she teaches on Old Testament theology?
Not at all. But when a bunch of scholars like Tigay, Barker, Mark S. Smith, etc. are all saying similar things, I think it is worth looking into. I liked Heiser's articles at thedivinecouncil (dot) com because they were short, simple, and logical on this topic.
smpf38 3 years ago
Jeffrey H. Tigay -- Deuteronomy (JPS Torah Commentary, 1996). It is considered to be one of the top references in this field. Here is what it says about Deut 32:7-8
"This means that when God was allotting nations to the divine beings, he made the same number of nations and territories as there were such beings. Verse 9 implies that He then assigned the other nations to those divine beings, and states explicitly that He kept Israel for Himself...."
smpf38 3 years ago
(cont. from Tigay)
"When God organized the government of the world, He established two tiers: at the top, He Himself, "God of gods (elohei ha-elohim) and Lord of lords" (10:17), who reserved Israel for Himself, to govern personally; below Him, seventy angelic "divine beings" (benei elohim), to whom He allotted the other peoples. The conception is like that of a king or emperor ... assigning the provinces to subordinates."
smpf38 3 years ago
So what? Angelic beings are not the same as "Gods." Are you trying to say that Jeffrey Tigay believes the same way Mormons do?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: So what? Angelic beings are not the same as "Gods."
The point my friend, is that one of the reasons you claimed Mormons are not Christian in your video is because you call us "polytheistic".
However, not only are the terms "monotheism" or "polytheism" absent from the Bible, but the concept of having beings known as "gods" that actually exist in the heavens is well accepted as part of the ancient Israelite religion. At least in scholarly circles.
smpf38 3 years ago
I would like to point you to thebackyardprofessor videos on "the Biblical Context"
You will see that LDS church teachings are perfectly in line with the Bible.
smpf38 3 years ago
The "backyard" professor Kerry Shirts is simply a hack. I might listen to him on marine biology (where he has a Phd), but his information would not pass any peer review group in any university outside BYU and its affiliates.
lgazzini 3 years ago
You don't have to listen to his opinions.
Listen the the top notch Biblical scholars who Kerry Shirts is quoting word for word.
smpf38 3 years ago
Brigham Young. "The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." JD 8:171
lgazzini 3 years ago
There are a series of videos that go into a lot of this and MORE. Don't stop at the first video, keep watching. They get better and better.
In fact, I really suggest that you watch all of them before you even begin to comment.
watch?v=zVAqXOvN9ag
The Fallacy of Fundamentalist Assumptions, FAIR Conference
smpf38 3 years ago
smpf39- almost nothing from FAIR could pass any University peer review. FAIR exists for only two reasons. Desparation and deception. Dr. John Gee's methods would get him laughed out the door of any University outside of Utah. Shirts misquotes are not very impressive.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: ...almost nothing from FAIR could pass any University peer review.
Well, 2 minutes into this video (watch?v=lHF6AIgfv2s), he quotes a peer reviewed scholar. We can discuss only what the peer reviewed scholar researched if you would like.
smpf38 3 years ago
See my video on Mormon Hate and you will easily see Brigham talked out of both sides of his mouth at the same time.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Ilegalplayer 3 years ago
The Journal of Discourses is not anti mormon it is the mormon prophets preaching there doctrine so how can a mormon person call there self christian when there prophets say things like this in the Journal of Discourses???????"The transactions of men are even more outrageous against the Lord,
and the only excuse for them is their
ignorance.What! are Christians
ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the
things of God as the brute beast."( John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 25)
Ilegalplayer 3 years ago
I dont know man, If I was mormon and walked into a christian bookstore (not LDS BOOKSTORE) and went to the cult section and saw books about my religion, I would have to wonder why .... afterall, is it not a christian bookstore? Why would they stick MORMONISM books in the cult section?
waynegm777 3 years ago
smpf38- Polytheism is the belief in more than one god. You do not have to worship that god, just have to believe more than one exists. Remember that as stated in the New Testament even demons believe in Christ, that does not save them.
So as long as you believe there is more than one god out there, you are polytheistic. Do you have a dictionary definition that states otherwise?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: Do you have a dictionary definition that states otherwise?
Yes, ... and I already gave them. Remember?
Igazzini: Remember that as stated in the New Testament even demons believe in Christ, that does not save them.
Of course I remember. I am the one who gave you the reference to that scripture.
My point is that they didn't "believe in" Christ. They acknowledged who he was and that he existed, but that doesn't mean they "believe in" Christ. They don't worship Christ.
smpf38 3 years ago
Polytheism- belief in or worship of more than one god. So as long as you believe there is more than one god, you are polytheistic. Very plain and simple
Does it embarrass you that you are polytheistic?
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: So as long as you believe there is more than one god,...
So, you believe that the demons in Mark 5:7 were Christian? I mean, they believed that Christ existed didn't they?
You aren't being very consistent.
smpf38 3 years ago
Iga: Does it embarrass you that you are polytheistic?
When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what it is called. My original point is that LDS views are in harmony with the Bible.
Psalms 8:5 translates the word "elohim" which actually means "gods" to angels. Now these beings exist according to the Bible.
It is perfectly legitimate to say that gods exist or even to call PEOPLE "gods". Christ did so in John 10:34 while quoting the Old Testament (Psalms 82:6).
smpf38 3 years ago
Iga: Early LDS were proud to admit their Jesus was different from the Jesus of the Bible.
I'd like to see some references for this one please.
Iga: LDS believe the Bible has been altered as to no longer be useful
Is that why Mormons study the Bible 2 years in seminary, are asked to read from it daily, and study it in more detail 2 years out of a 4 year cycle for Sunday school classes? (The Book of Mormon only gets 1 year out of the 4 year cycle.)
You don't really know anything about LDS.
smpf38 3 years ago
smpf38- See my video Mormon Hate. There was plenty of condemnation of Christians early on by LDS.
Why do you not want to admit you believe the Bible has been altered? If you want to be a Christian, then leave Mormonism and become a Christian. But stop throwing out all this patronizing nonsense.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Our bible is the king james version, thats it.............. yup, just good ole king james........ not the mormon version, not even joseph smith version, just plain ole king james, im sure that that version is a rather common one.
BeMoWoLover 3 years ago
Iga: Why do you not want to admit you believe the Bible has been altered?
Believing that the Bible is not complete or inerrant is not the same as believing it is "no longer useful" as you accuse.
Your accusation is patently false. LDS use and study the Bible constantly. I would put up a random Mormon's knowledge of the King James Bible up against a random Christian any day of the week. Does your average High School kid wake up every morning for 2 years just to study the Bible?
smpf38 3 years ago
The Bible is not your standard. What other Scriptures do you believe "as far as it is translated correctly"? You believe the Bible only as much as it agrees with your other works. Where it does not agree with you, you dismiss it. Thus, the Bible has no value as a guide to you. Esp since you can override it.
lgazzini 3 years ago
The Bible includes 2 of 4 of our "standard works": The Old and New Testaments.
We don't "dismiss" either one as you accuse. We don't find them "no longer useful" as you claim. Your video is based on deception.
LDS are more in line with the Bible. Who did Christ receive "authority" from? Who did he "inherit" from? Who loved him from before the foundation of the world? Who "chose" Christ?
Himself? or a separate individual, the Father?
They are "one" in the sense Christ gave in John 17.
smpf38 3 years ago
Now exactly how many standard works do you have? In your articles of faith, does it separate the Bible into the Old and New Testaments? Not that I recall. If anything in the Bible does not agree with your other standard works you consider it wrong. Thus you consider the Bible useful only as long as it agrees with you. In other words, the Bible has no real bearing on what you believe.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Iga: Now exactly how many standard works do you have?
We have 4 standard works. 1) Old Testament 2) New Testament 3) Book of Mormon 4) Doctrine and Covenants with the Pearl of Great Price
All are studied and referenced all of the time, but each is studied more in depth in Sunday School classes individually on a 4 year cycle. For example, last year was the New Testament and this year is the BoM.
smpf38 3 years ago
OK, you lung PoG with D&C. I thought they were separate. I did not realize you split the Bible in two. But realize the Bible is secondary to the others. If you do not like something in the Bible, you can discard it as being wrong.
lgazzini 3 years ago
I don't even think you can think of it as "secondary".
For example, in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament, there are references to the fall of Adam. Without the Old Testament and the book of Genesis, it wouldn't be clear exactly what is being discussed. In order to have the whole picture, you need the Old Testament.
Likewise, the New Testament descriptions of Christ's mortal ministry is very important to Mormons. We don't "discard" any of it.
smpf38 3 years ago
AGAIN, You do not take the Bible at face value. You have to compare it to your church teachings instead of comparing your church teachings to the word of God.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: You do not take the Bible at face value.
We take the Bible for what it is. Inspired men of God were impressed to write according to the Spirit, the words of God. Over the millenia, the texts have been copied, recopied, and sometimes rewritten (Go to the Backyardprofessor's videos "Biblical Context" (start with the 2nd video) where he quotes world class CHRISTIAN Biblical scholars on this).
SOME of those writings were collected, compiled to make the Bible.
smpf38 3 years ago
What a joke. Yes, you can find some changes in spelling and copist errors. But nothing that shows any change in meaning. If you fell compelled to make a big deal about changes then you should address the changes btwn the Book of Commandments and Doctrines & Covenants. Realize Book of Commandments makes no mention of the LDS priesthood. NOTHING. That is simply because it was a later invention of Smith and Rigdon.
lgazzini 3 years ago
Igazzini: But nothing that shows any change in meaning.
You are wrong on this and if you would have watched the Backyardprofessor's videos on this you would here where he quotes Biblical scholars on what changes DO have doctrinal significance.
Lut let's start with one concept in particular. You should go to w w w (dot) the divinecouncil (dot) com
Read the article about Psalm 82 (this is Michael Heizer by the way. He is an Evangelical but also a PhD)
smpf38 3 years ago