When you were showing manga there...All them were shit manga, Cept Dragon Ball but I grew up watching the cartoon on Toonami so I think childhood nostalgia is allowed. But seriously the code with manga now is BISHIES, NAME CALLING, NINJAS, GUNS, REVENGE AND BOOBIEZ, EVERYONE IS THICK AS SHIT. And games are going the exact same way, and its not a good thing, It will kill the game industry to. Its killing comics again. even fans get pissed about the shit.
Honestly, the I can't get the numerous kids I've met to play the Wii if its not just dance with their friends. Leave them alone and they tend to go play playstation or xbox. More kids are gaming early and they are tending to jump straight into games on the playstation or xbox consoles. Believe me, I've tried to get some kids to play Super Mario Galaxy but they'd rather play something else. Might still be far off
I dont seems the games made towards to youth is was the youth doesnt like anymore. I honestly looove the mascots of the classic consoles but now it seems all the kids rather play a game where they kill people, they are pretty much fucked up now.
1: Video Games are not toys. Even what you call figures aren't even 'toys'. You can't play with those without risking breaking them. Video Games, even Nintendo, are powerful media. Video Games, like movies, books, comics and so on are media to entertain and tell a story for all ages. Even simple games like Mario still tell a story, even if it's your normal 'save the princess' ordeal. Media is art, but that doesn't mean all of them are good art (cont.)
2: I know this video is a few years old, but Sony has more than Ratchet and Clank (my fav video game series, just for the recorded). Little Big Planet, Modnation Racers, a new Sly game is coming out in 2012, + Little Deviants for the Vita, Hot Shot Golf. Do I need to go on. And not only that, these games do REALLY well and Sony puts alot of money into getting people's interest. And even then, Compare to the 360's exclusives, they have a very diverse library for all (cont.)
@SweetTeaholic (cont.) Note: Not saying the 360 doesn't have a diverse library, but most seem 3rd party for the most part. Feel free to correct me on that being I only own a PS3 and Wii, I may be missing some.
While I do understand some of your argument, I can't help but feel you're too stuck in the past and not even willing to see what else is out there other than the mainstream and idolize Nintendo for everything. I for one love all kinds of games, but I won't lie when I say (cont.)
But I won't lie when I say I do prefer the more colorful mascots (Mario, Ratchet and Clank, Rayman, etc.) over the gritty war-qisc titles coming out (Call of Duty, Battlefield). Also, I disagree that these companies aren't advertising to a younger crowd. I see advertisements for not just Nintendo titles, but for games also aimed at kids yet something adults can also pick up and play. THERE is a market and not all gamers want to get the next CoD clone to come out. (cont.
Also, tons of little kids play M rated games. Who do you think is at fault? The Parents. Due to this, kids think Halo is manly and anything bright, colorful and cartoon-ish games like Mario is for babies. Marketing also comes into play making it seem like this. Those who raise there kids right though are willing to try anything, no matter the look of it's cover.
The overall message of the video makes me think of the short-lived "Blinx: The Time Sweeper" series. There were two games and then the biggest potential kid-oriented mascot for the Xbox went by the wayside in favor of Master Chief. Just my opinion, but I'd rather see a kid-friendly time-based-puzzle become the chief Xbox game, not another first-person shooter.
But wait a minute. Children are playing M games, they don't care about Mario and innocent stuff like that. I was playing Saints Row Two and there was a five year old playing it. Cawadoody is the new Pokemon/Mario. I personally think it's because of the war. Look where FPSs featuring WW2 and Modern Warfare became popular. And even if it's shit, children will still beg their mom and dad to buy it. Hmmmm you mean just like the 90s and all the shitty spin-offs and failed consoles? You don't say!
I'm seriously thinking that this is what happened to Mega Man. Capcom is completely unwilling to sink the funds necessary for a proper, modern Mega Man title. There are model kits, collectible books, manga volumes, and emulated re-releases out the whazoo, but the foundation of ongoing games is getting torn apart because they're supposedly unprofitable. Which is to say, Mega Man is being aimed solely at older, hardcore fans with recreational spending money, no longer viable for the masses.
@Zangelin That is completely unlikely dude. Movie goers COMPLETELY outnumber gamers. Always have and always will. The point that Bob is trying to make is that Sony and Microsoft are pretty much saying fuck the younger crowd and releasing games EXCLUSIVELY for adults. And with the way violent video games with questionable moral values are being chastised EVEN TO THIS DAY by the media for all the world's ills, pretty soon the younger audience is just gonna say fuck it and ignore them completely.
@Zangelin Sony and Microsoft aren't looking at the bigger picture. They're all about releasing the next big war game and the new Madden game with slightly changed wind physics and an updated roster. Things that should just be DLC anyway. Nintendo is on top because they not only try and cater to the hardcore gamers, but to everyone else as well. As long as the other two are just pumping out graphical orgasms meant for the most hardcore, they're alienating their most important clientele.
@Launchpad05 Indeed. Disney buys Marvel and then shuffles their Marvel content off to Disney XD, a chennel only available in the pricier cable packages.
@NightcrawlerZERO And A channel formally known as 'Toon Disney', that use to air the good Disney cartoons, and now runs garbage like 'Zeke & Luthor', 'I'm In The Band', and 'Pair Of Kings'. It's pathetic that the Marvel shows, including the awesome 'Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes' has to share space with this crap.
@snake2006 what difference does it make? Who cares if it's a toy, game, computer or whatever. The point is that without appealing to newer and younger audiences, the game industry will decline.
If comics were sold in the same places where 'Harry Potter', and 'Twilight' books are sold, maybe they could still reach younger readers, and not be limited to older fans who dwell at comic shops.
Moviebob referred to Naruto as "Backwards!!" BLASPHEMY!!!! Shame on you Moviebob. It not mangas fault for the American comic book industry's stupidity in not targeting children any more manga just filled in the gap and thank God for that. The Anime and manga boom in the 90s probably would have been as huge if that Gap was not there there to fill.
I was playing M games, when they were brand new things. I work in video game retail and I see parents buying kids games like Black Ops,Modern Warfare, GTA,Gears,Halo and the like. Once again it proves how full of pretentious bullshit Overthinker is. He has no fucking idea what he is talking about in 99% of his videos, he uses some big words and people flock to him like he is a guru speaking the truth.
When he is full of shit. Also the date is meaningless,it still holds today.
.....wow, he's right, there will ALWAYS be new kids, and they always like the same thing. But adult tastes change every generation. Nintendo is already screwing Sonny and Microsoft with half heart attempts now! They are in deep mud.
@viking977 no, more like why were seeing naughty dog ending the uncharted series and suckerpunch handing the development of the next sly cooper off to a port company for it's last stages.
sony is moving to make their owned development studios push more kid appealing(read not friendly) games, if that catches on we may see a return of a serious(read not on a hand held or about racing) jak and daxter game or who knows capcom might bring one of theirs out of the hat(like say a console based MML3).
@malivaxx have to say, spyro the dragon and crash bandicoot making comebacks appeals to me.
more games with a lightness of tone would be nice, like games that manage to hit that sweet spot of friendly to kids and new gamers but with enough challenge to be fun for veterans. the original ratchet and clank did this quite nicely.
fuck now i want to play ratchet and clank, such a great game.
Great points all, my friend. It's nice to see someone express these ideas in an intelligent manner.
BTW, however, comic sales are at their highest since right before the mid-90's bust. And their are plenty of comics aimed at kids and at bringing new readership.
2. parents need to let their kids play more mature games at a youg age, like how my parents bought me mortal kombat as soon as it came out for the playstation
Eh ever play COD with all the little 12year olds playing that? And lets be fair XBox and Playstation cover the teen market somewhat with their games. Although I must admit the Playstation seems to have an aging audience, which I've been growing up with, from PS1 which had a large child base (Crash, Spyro etc), PS2-the most popular-mostly teen audience, PS3 is undeniably 20+ gamers primarily now, may explain the reduced sales. I wouldn't expect the demographic to change much next gen though.
So Nintendo,Sega,Capcom,Konami and Sony have the GAMER audience (A.K.A. Kids),while Microsoft decided, "We have the HARDCORE (The REAL hardcore audience is Kids but thats not what Microsoft thinks) audience in our grasps so we are the best company!" First of all, Nintendo has always been the best and will always be with Sony in second, (the third party developers
@DJInsaneNinja If Ratchet is kid-friendly, then why are most of his games rated T for Teen?
Also, I will have to address this: What's so kid friendly about a man trying to defeat Dracula and his army of the undead? The art style doesn't exactly lend itself to being "kid-friendly" either. Look at Symphony of the Night, for instance.
Konami is hardly kid-friendly nowadays, what with all the Metal Gear and Castlevania games. They tried to bring Sparkster back, but no one paid attention.
@DJInsaneNinja Capcom's apparently rumored to be killing OFF its kid-friendly mascot. If the Jak series hadn't gone a complete 180 into a darker tone after the first game, then it would have been alright. But no, one day, it's kid friendly, the other, Jak's an angsty, sulking, vengeful a-hole(being infected with Dark Eco doesn't help) and everything's gone to rubbish.
Whilst you do draw up some problems with the industry, i.e. same franchise with slightly better graphics and an aging audience drools over it instead of a good story, this video is too reactionary. Just as board games have not stopped being enjoyed I do not think video games shall soon. Hell, there are may board game video games.
You know, lately, this video is becoming more relevant, especially with Capcom trying to kill the Megaman franchise. Megaman was one of the only kid-oriented franchises Capcom had, but what happened? They only have Street Fighter and Resident Evil nowadays.
5:20: "Oh, you still can't get younger kids to read comics by the way..."
Young Avengers and Runaways are both great series and very suitable for younger audiences. I read a whole lot of Marvel's stuff because of them. I now know mostly who is Marvel and who is DC and I actually know something about characters that haven't been in other media much like Captain America.
I think it's exaggerating the financial threat, but man, the video game industry really needs to snap out of it's "the game either has to be super violent or cater to your grandma" mentality, right now it's really only Nintendo that keeps on making colorful high quality games that don't involve decapitation or planning to implement that feature in the game's sequel. As someone who doesn't appreciate shooting people in the head, no wonder I almost only play Nintendo.
@draco1002 His point is that Microsoft and Sony needed more franchises that reached out to the younger generation. Gears of War and Halo aren't those games.
Oh christ on a crutch, I'm getting sick of this. I'm tired to trying to be mature, and arguing this calmly and intellectually. I swear, I'm about ready to write a thesis on why games are valid as an artisict medium. I really, really, really hope the gaming community has gotten over this 'oh we're just playing with toys and want to be honest about it' by the time I have time I have time to play games again Like film, animation, novels ,and comics, games can be literature! EEEERRrrrr....
@drakencorin He does point out that games are also art. I think his point has more to do with the fact that the games need to be able to keep grabbing kids otherwise we aren't going to be able to sustain the games.
I read comic books, and I'm 14. I can't stand manga because they're hyper-sexual and treat women like objects and men like pigs or spineless cowards. This is not me saying that all heroes should be Rorshach, but in manga and anime, if a hero is male, he is either a wimp who relies on the pair of tits following him around or a man with a sword bigger than his body.
@soopahfr433k You know... Manga is actually a medium and not a genre... There are other kinds of manga out there. You're basically looking at the "Image comics" of an entire artform and putting it in the same class. Branch out, son.
Yeah, I love Lucifer, wicked series. But I also love anime, though your complaint about male character archetypes is valid. You have do a bit of rummanging for the good stuff. You should go watch anything involving Mahiro Maeda, and read anything by Shirow Masamune though, you might see the medium in a different light :-)
I disagree with the certainty put forward by Moviebob here. Let me bring in some old school price tags for consoles here: back in 1986 (thats 6 years before I was born) the NES released for $200+ depending on the bundle you bought, heck 4 years before that the Atari 2500 cost $330 on release. I'm not going to check the inflation rates of the Dollar over that time but needless to say the consoles were f-ing expensive.
A shit ton of kids still play? I got my ass beat at Halo by a eight year old. Good theory it can happen but young fans haven't been edged out yet. I believe this could happen but not now? We also have a bunch of gamers that still play that are in college trust me because I am one so are my friends.
Great video but what about Kratos, a car (GRAND TURISMO) LBP sock boy, etc, Imo, every age should have a mascot for their respective level. as for xbox, i mean.. Master Chief, Marcus pheonix, etc.
I have a big problem with Bob's argument here. He goes on about how all the grim-dark settings and 'adult' themes will naturally not be appealing to kids and thus not refresh gamings userbase once this generation passes.
But seriously think for a minute and ask yourself who are playing the CoD's, the Halos and all the other grim-dark things that Bob is railing against? Thats right, its those annoying 12-year-old teabagging noscopers who relish in this stuff the most.
@Condeycon The fact is, kids today are different from when Bob was a kid. The things that appealed to kids 10-20 years ago, are not the same things that still have them begging for their parents money now. The mascots and cute fuzzy creatures of yesteryear are giving way to the military fetishism and grim-dark antiheros of today.
Kids today have grown up in this setting, they are conditioned to like it just as much as the cute and fuzzy things. Thats where I think Bob is wrong.
oh my GOD maybe its just cuz im backdating all these videos right now and i havent ran into the subject yet, but it sounds like your completely missing indie games. i believe, just like how in the early 2000s indie music took over mainstream for a while before it was stirred up into one genre cuz of myspace music and purevolume, indie games will slowly influence and take over mainstream...granted this vid was made way before minecraft/ super meat boy/ limbo
I don't agree with the whole video games are aimed at the younger demographics, mostly because it isn't. The first game, which is arguably "tennis for two", was made by some guy/s, to be entertained. Which means it never was aimed at the younger demographics, it was aimed for all people. Nintendo turned it to a medium aimed for children.
That I would actually agree with, it's never really been marketed otherwise. Some of my favourite games are not however. See argument posted throughout comments :-)
Sure video game companies are marketing less for children, but have you seen what kids ARE being aloud to play with today? Most parents don't mind their children playing with T games, and many don't mind them playing with M games. My little cousin who is only 10 years old has played assassin's creed 2 before I have. So just because they're not marketing a game to a kid doesn't mean the kid won't play it.
@lucas5665 Since when did parents not mind kids playing M games? T games I can understand, since most of them are pretty tame, but M games? Whoa. This is news to me. Of course, this IS probably because I rarely ever play M games, and never online, thank god. It still gives me chills thinking about that one 12-year old kid I heard swearing his butt off when I was playing Soul Calibur 4, a T game. Now that I think of it though, WHY I only ran into ONE 12 year old has just reared its ugly head...
Couldn't DISAGREE more. You are simply wrong here. Gaming is the next step of multimedia, an interactive art form. Video games are not toys and more than films are toys. No-one would ever describe a film or book as a "toy" but 'The Little Mermaid' and 'Harry Potter' are made for kids are they not? We can have games made for kids, just as we have films made for kids, but that doesn't mean we denegrate video gaming to the realm of Toys any more than we do the movie industry. You're WRONG!
@TornadoCreator It's a toy because you PLAY it.... Seriously, stop trying to compare games to movies, k?
Movies are great when they have a great story...
GAMES are great when they're fun to play....
Y'know... Movies and books aren't toys because you don't PLAY them, you watch/read them, you are passive....
Games are toys because you PLAY them, nothing happens unless you MAKE IT happen! There's nothing wrong with being toys either... It falls into the same realm as tabletop RPG's and/or wargames!
1. There are toys for adults(sexdolls? *pervface* not really but think D&D, it's too complicated for kids, and is a toy, meaning adults play it), and even kids toys can be enjoyed by some adults
2. I was, mostly FF games and other JRPG's, and if scared counts, then silent hill too....
3. You just said it
4. yea, nothing to do...
Well, out of 4 definitions you gave me, games fit 2 of them.... So... I guess this puts games comfortably into the "toy" category....
How do they fit 2 out of 4? They're not for children, they're not of little importance or trivial, and they're not small ornaments or baubles. So the only definition that fits is "An amusement, a passtime". Now if that definition alone makes something a toy, A DVD, a book, the act of swimming, a well timed fart and a blowjob are all toys... something tells me they're not. Why can't a game just be a game? Calling it a toy implies it fits the first two definitions, which it doesn't.
For some reason, YouTube decided in it's infinite wisdom to not inform me of your response until now. Ok, "why do toys have to be for children", because they do! They are DEFINED as being for children. "Why do games have to be of little importance", they don't. I never said they did. I was defining 'toy'. A game and a toy are not the same thing. Basketball is a game, to use overthinkers example, hense adults play it, barbie is a toy... not the same. Video games are GAMES not toys.
I don't need an "idea", I have a fucking definition you bloody cretin. How hard is this concept for you to accept? How about we choose something different because a 'ball' is ambiguous in many ways. A golf club? A pool cue? A formula one ferrari? A deck of playing cards? An Xbox controller? none of these things are toys. A tenuous argument could be made for calling them tools, but not toys. Just because something is used for a passtime doesn't make it a toy! A dictionary; use one.
@TornadoCreator I don't think you checked the actual definition of the word, because that point only works in my favor.
"plaything: an artifact designed to be played with" is what comes up consistently in every up to date dictionary I've checked. Its moot though.
Oh, and quit being a belligerent douchebag. I know its super edgy and cool to be abrasive and presumptuous on the internet, but if you're going to argue with me, you're going to be civil, otherwise I'm just going to stop responding.
@TornadoCreator These facts don't effect our argument though, hence my choice to omit them myself. This is because as far as I personally am concerned, a textbook definition doesn't do our argument any good, since our argument isn't in definition, its in nature. Do you think video games shouldn't be considered toys on the basis of artistic merit, or can't be considered toys on the basis of their target audience (which is humorously fallacious on so many levels)? Please clarify your position.
Honestly, I consider video games to not be toys based on intended purpose. While their purpose is entertainment, it is not "play". I will now justify this statement. While it is possible to play with some games, most have a story to tell, skill to master or artistic point or purpose to convey. In the same respect, you can "play" a guitar, but it is not a toy. I consider entertainment of a more complex nature, such as that of a film, book or video game, to disqualify it as a toy.
....(part 2), basically I'm arguing for complexity. A toy is something you simply play with, but there is no wrong way to play with a toy, it's simply imaginative play. A game however, has rules, methods, a system. Reguardless of the format, be it Monopoly or GTA 4, you can play with these things incorrectly, this elevates them from beyond simple imaginative play to structured play, we're bordering on the realm of sports here. This is where I draw the line between games and toys.
@TornadoCreator Your argument has a hole. This train of reason relies on a concept that isn't true, that games are based in a context, before they are based in recreation. Before a game has to function as literature, it must function as entertainment, and they are not the same in this medium. Games can exist as videogames without a plot, or a proper theme or premise.
True, games can exist without story, plot or theme, pacman and asteroids are good examples, but they cannot exist without rules or structure. These games have a different purpose to storytelling, competitive challenge. Can you get the high score? Again, there is a structure to the game. Even the most simple games are structured play, not imaginative play which is the purpose of a toy.
PS: Yes I would argue bored games and jigsaw puzzles are also not toys.
Yes, but semantics are not unimportant. The word 'toy' carries conotations that I don't appreciate and find insulting. I wouldn't claim a film buff, sports fan or musician was "playing with a toy" if they where watching a DVD, playing with a football or playing a guitar and I don't like the dismissive nature of people doing such with my hobby, it's disrespectful and honestly rather innaccurate because it's not just "a toy" many games require a lot of skill or convey a complex story.
But as a descriptive it fails, as I explained earlier video games don't actually fit the technical definition of a toy and most people consider toys to be an exclusively child based thing. I want to be able to discuss games and have the average person consider what I'm talking about in the same way they would consider a book or film, so no, toy doesn't fit and I don't consider it mere semantics. It's insulting because it's a purposeful way of demeaning video games, it IS derogatory.
@TornadoCreator And I already told you that the textbook definition backs me up. Again, you have two logical outs. The first, that videogames as a medium can be appreciated for nothing more than quality, like traditional art, paintings, and the like, or that otherthinker used it in a derogatory context, both of which are false.
First, video games can be appreciated for their "quality", and I'm not even sure what you mean by that... I consider video games the same way I do film. Films are art would you not agree, they're certainly not toys right? Second, the overthinker DOES mean it derogatorally. He says "...are TOYS" to mean "You take these too seriously, they're incidental and should be an unimportant passtime that comes after the other aspects of your life", he doesn't treat it like a mature hobby.
Thank you for taking up this mantle. If we lived in the same country and could keep things civil I'd love to see a proper debate. This is turning into a very devisive little argument about what games should be and mean. I'm half teampted to write an essay on this when I finally have the time, just for the hell of it and try and structure my thoughts around this 'Games as Art' concept.
Thank you. I'm glad that you spurred on by my arguments. I honestly feel video games have the potensial to be the next great method of artistic expression. Games like Shadow Of The Colossus via it's visuals and gameplay shows this, where as game like Lost Odyssey shows this via charactarisation and exploration, a very different method. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. The fact is, The Overthinker is embarrased by his games, you can tell by his tone. I'm proud of them...
What? Did you forget to take your pills or something. Also, an aditional point, you don't "play with" a game, you "play" a game. It's not the same. You "play with" a doll, you "play" a CD. The word play can have subtle differences and nuances. Everything that you "play" is not by virtue of being played a "toy". You're wrong. Simple as that.
Seeing this is from 2008, KInect is now here which is more based on the household and there for they will create more games for a younger audience as well, Yet they still don't have an Mascot!
Sony did had a few, and probably will bring them back if they still have the rights to it as well. Saying all this!? I do think you need to update this topic for the near future, or atleast someday.
Again I find something irksome here. I find the description 'videogames are toys' really dismissive to the point of insulting. I'm a narratologist, I play games for the same reason I read books and graphic novels and watch movies, tv and anime; for a good story, not purely out of some nostalgic need to connect to my childhood which Mr. Overthinker seems to think games are for. Gaming has the potential to be literature yet, don't discourage it by telling it it has to be a toy.
Thing is toys are not an insult unless you feel really insecure. There is nothing wrong with one of your daily activities which might be gaming not having a greater cause like "good story". Toys esentially are made for one thing: To fill our free time with "entertainment". If you feel like your entertainment is disrupted by someone who said something you dont really agree or your gut reaction to disagree... then I ask you if you dont really need entertainment but social acceptance
Interesting, but I only agree to a point. This is partially about social acceptance, but not mine. It's about the social acceptance of gaming, and again, calling it a toy is demeaning as the medium is still struggling to gain credibility as an artistic form, and avoiding being a scapegoat for social ills, which it still tends to. Film, writing, animation et all may be 'entertainment' but do you really think 'toys' is also a suitable word? I don't, and I think the same for games.
Very succinct; but you're rather doggedly missing the point. I do enjoy the literature I consume in my free time, I have no care for any judgements on my personal tastes in entertainment and you're suspicion of insecurity on my part is irrelevant anyway. But I would like to see more creativity, depth and meaning in literature, specifically in gaming, which is lacking despite its potential, partly because they are still popularly percieved as 'toys', not art or literature.
They can, but that is not their primary function, which is to entertain, and entertainment does necessitate the complexities of narrative literature. It sounds pretentious, but liturature does more than entertain, it inspires thought and emotion that goes beyond simply being 'amused' or 'destracted' from the real world. I would not suggest that all gaming needs to aspire to being literature, but my complaint is it gets pidegon-holed as a toy, which (again) limits its potential.
Do you think the hidden potential is worth the trouble?
Dont you think that it would be easier in terms of bandwidth of existance and time to simply follow the mainstream belief of games are toys and books are inspiration?
Yep, 100% I think it is worth the trouble. Silent Hill 2, Max Payne, Ico and Shadow of the Colussus, Starcraft, Final Fantasy 7, Bioshock; these are the games that have moved me and thrilled me, and there are far too few of them. It's why I don't game all that much, but am thrilled when I do come across a game that is truly unique, has depth to its world, its characters and its ideology. I'm a snob I'll admit, but screw the mainstream, give me alternative and arthouse et al.
Then I question your definition. Even if there is some truth to the statement, it is limiting. A book is more than a toy, and given that it requires proficiency in written language to use I'd say it's more of an educational tool, if it is not being used purely as a delivery method for narratives.
@drakencorin using that logic, nothing is a toy, since almost any toy could have another application. That application has no more or less merit just because its cerebral, thats just deceptive.
I don't think it's deceptive, and actually, following this logic, many objects are still toys, the lego collection now residing under my stairwell for example, and the list I assure you would be lengthy. And I again disagree, I place greater merits on literature 'precisely because' its more cerebral, and I would like to see this more in gaming, which, as the Extra Creditz fellas point out is more likely now thanks to the presence of tertiary institutions who teach game design.
@drakencorin google lego art. Duchamp would like to have a stern word with you. Your logic is still subject to perception based qualifiers.
I don't know why there is anything wrong with a toy being art, when we collect and trade them at prices denoting worth beyond practical use. Vintage dolls are art. A human likenesses from legos are art. Video games are art, but they are also toys.
Admittedly I've never heard of Duchamp. But I see we're coming from two entirely different value sets, both of which are subject in some manner to each of our tastes, and we may need to both just accept this before we resort to angry ranting. I'll even concede on your dolls example. I also used to play WH40k, but I gave it up because I was lest interested in the models as art or a game, and more interested in it as a compelling sci-fi world, and preferred to read about it.... part 1
@drakencorin If you don't know who Duchamp is, you have absolutely no authority to tell anyone anything about what constitutes art at any level, due to an inadequate amount of background to formulate an informed opinion on the subject. Lacking any sort of reputability, I say that what you say is just that, your opinion, which means its worth basicly nothing to anyone other than yourself. However, that is ok. Just don't attempt to pass this into the realm of facts. Video games are toys.
Heh, dude, you don't have a clue about my background, and lacking certain information on a person or subject is only limiting in that specific context. Given that we're talking about something as abstract as art, no one has 'authority' over anyone else, stop being pretentious. My opinion is informed by my background, which isn't inferior, just different. Wait... Duchamp, that's the urinal guy, post-cubism right? Yeah, not a fan of modern art, can't stand Picasso and Warhol... part1
@drakencorin Not knowing who Duchamp is, and then rattling on about art, is like saying you don't know who Shigeru Miyamoto is, and then rattling on about game design (No, Duchamp is not the Miyamoto of art).
You don't have the minimum required knowledge to make an informed opinion on the subject. You might know a whole damn lot about the vidya, but until you also have constructed an actual background on the subject, you have less an idea what you're talking about than my mother does.
Mwahaha. I wondered when our mothers were going to enter this exchange. You still fail to comprehend that we're simply debating this from different backgrounds, neither is more qualified than the other. This is a testing of our theories against the other's point of view and intellect, not a 'my background's bigger than yours' cock-measuring competition. You don't need to have studied all of art history to have the right to debate artistic values, that's is absurd.... part 1
I hope you only mean the right-left thing when you mean "backwords" (either that are you're just referring to Naruto)
wizardjack 22 hours ago
Don't go out tonight ...
rentman1995 4 days ago
So I guess that's the reason why Kingdom Hearts three is on the Ds
IGeorge94 5 days ago
I got into video games when I was 9 and started playing Half-Life and GTA 1 so I don't see the problem.
Erverino 1 week ago
When you were showing manga there...All them were shit manga, Cept Dragon Ball but I grew up watching the cartoon on Toonami so I think childhood nostalgia is allowed. But seriously the code with manga now is BISHIES, NAME CALLING, NINJAS, GUNS, REVENGE AND BOOBIEZ, EVERYONE IS THICK AS SHIT. And games are going the exact same way, and its not a good thing, It will kill the game industry to. Its killing comics again. even fans get pissed about the shit.
Lollipop708 1 week ago
Honestly, the I can't get the numerous kids I've met to play the Wii if its not just dance with their friends. Leave them alone and they tend to go play playstation or xbox. More kids are gaming early and they are tending to jump straight into games on the playstation or xbox consoles. Believe me, I've tried to get some kids to play Super Mario Galaxy but they'd rather play something else. Might still be far off
TheShadowofsparta 1 week ago
Heh funny thing on the fisrt part talkin about comics. It's that whole "we gotta make it modern for teh kiddies" that's caused Dc's Reboot.
TheCharleyman87 2 weeks ago
God I love these videos.
Forfunaccount 3 weeks ago
I dont seems the games made towards to youth is was the youth doesnt like anymore. I honestly looove the mascots of the classic consoles but now it seems all the kids rather play a game where they kill people, they are pretty much fucked up now.
tisokan 3 weeks ago
But we should have both...
TheGearGamer 3 weeks ago
god damnit. I was going to write about ratchet and clank after the video, but you killed that:P so funny
christheman7 3 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
send this into g4tv and watch everyone shit their pants.
hufer95 4 weeks ago
@hufer95 dude they dont care
henshinman 3 weeks ago
As much as I agree, and want to see the gaming industry continue to grow....I can't help but point out......There already is "no more Solid Snake"
*Snif*
Sarlouse 1 month ago in playlist More videos from moviebob 2
Dude.... I love Carnage... and Venom... and the MUCH LESS KNOWN Toxin...
kovulover 1 month ago
1: Video Games are not toys. Even what you call figures aren't even 'toys'. You can't play with those without risking breaking them. Video Games, even Nintendo, are powerful media. Video Games, like movies, books, comics and so on are media to entertain and tell a story for all ages. Even simple games like Mario still tell a story, even if it's your normal 'save the princess' ordeal. Media is art, but that doesn't mean all of them are good art (cont.)
SweetTeaholic 1 month ago
@SweetTeaholic: (cont)
2: I know this video is a few years old, but Sony has more than Ratchet and Clank (my fav video game series, just for the recorded). Little Big Planet, Modnation Racers, a new Sly game is coming out in 2012, + Little Deviants for the Vita, Hot Shot Golf. Do I need to go on. And not only that, these games do REALLY well and Sony puts alot of money into getting people's interest. And even then, Compare to the 360's exclusives, they have a very diverse library for all (cont.)
SweetTeaholic 1 month ago
@SweetTeaholic (cont.) Note: Not saying the 360 doesn't have a diverse library, but most seem 3rd party for the most part. Feel free to correct me on that being I only own a PS3 and Wii, I may be missing some.
While I do understand some of your argument, I can't help but feel you're too stuck in the past and not even willing to see what else is out there other than the mainstream and idolize Nintendo for everything. I for one love all kinds of games, but I won't lie when I say (cont.)
SweetTeaholic 1 month ago
@SweetTeaholic (cont.)
But I won't lie when I say I do prefer the more colorful mascots (Mario, Ratchet and Clank, Rayman, etc.) over the gritty war-qisc titles coming out (Call of Duty, Battlefield). Also, I disagree that these companies aren't advertising to a younger crowd. I see advertisements for not just Nintendo titles, but for games also aimed at kids yet something adults can also pick up and play. THERE is a market and not all gamers want to get the next CoD clone to come out. (cont.
SweetTeaholic 1 month ago
@SweetTeaholic (cont.)
Also, tons of little kids play M rated games. Who do you think is at fault? The Parents. Due to this, kids think Halo is manly and anything bright, colorful and cartoon-ish games like Mario is for babies. Marketing also comes into play making it seem like this. Those who raise there kids right though are willing to try anything, no matter the look of it's cover.
SweetTeaholic 1 month ago
The overall message of the video makes me think of the short-lived "Blinx: The Time Sweeper" series. There were two games and then the biggest potential kid-oriented mascot for the Xbox went by the wayside in favor of Master Chief. Just my opinion, but I'd rather see a kid-friendly time-based-puzzle become the chief Xbox game, not another first-person shooter.
YouDuck2345 1 month ago
Augggh, sorry to hear you liked Starman. That comic was smugly hip and "too cool for school."
CristinaFernandez 1 month ago
SLOW DOWN THERE, BUCKO.
Kids aren't 80-90% of the userbase.
DanTheVikingr 1 month ago
@DanTheVikingr That's kind of the point of the video, if you spent any time listening.
CmagsProductions 1 month ago
But wait a minute. Children are playing M games, they don't care about Mario and innocent stuff like that. I was playing Saints Row Two and there was a five year old playing it. Cawadoody is the new Pokemon/Mario. I personally think it's because of the war. Look where FPSs featuring WW2 and Modern Warfare became popular. And even if it's shit, children will still beg their mom and dad to buy it. Hmmmm you mean just like the 90s and all the shitty spin-offs and failed consoles? You don't say!
xXbutters1234 1 month ago
You need to reupload the original of these, 240p sounds like shit.
onlinefaq1 1 month ago
I'm seriously thinking that this is what happened to Mega Man. Capcom is completely unwilling to sink the funds necessary for a proper, modern Mega Man title. There are model kits, collectible books, manga volumes, and emulated re-releases out the whazoo, but the foundation of ongoing games is getting torn apart because they're supposedly unprofitable. Which is to say, Mega Man is being aimed solely at older, hardcore fans with recreational spending money, no longer viable for the masses.
Hypershell 1 month ago
by the point this happens (if it happens) I will either be dead or not care. so I say keep making games that appeal to me. I dont give a fuck.
vash9252 2 months ago
Hmm i think things have changed though, Games are no longer toys and as it looks now, in a few decades games will have replaced movies completely
Zangelin 3 months ago
@Zangelin That is completely unlikely dude. Movie goers COMPLETELY outnumber gamers. Always have and always will. The point that Bob is trying to make is that Sony and Microsoft are pretty much saying fuck the younger crowd and releasing games EXCLUSIVELY for adults. And with the way violent video games with questionable moral values are being chastised EVEN TO THIS DAY by the media for all the world's ills, pretty soon the younger audience is just gonna say fuck it and ignore them completely.
chosentonessournotes 2 months ago
@Zangelin Sony and Microsoft aren't looking at the bigger picture. They're all about releasing the next big war game and the new Madden game with slightly changed wind physics and an updated roster. Things that should just be DLC anyway. Nintendo is on top because they not only try and cater to the hardcore gamers, but to everyone else as well. As long as the other two are just pumping out graphical orgasms meant for the most hardcore, they're alienating their most important clientele.
chosentonessournotes 2 months ago
Comment removed
imperialcrypt 3 months ago
Industry may have taken your hint:
-Kinect
-annual Ratchet & Clank sequels
-LittleBigPlanet
-Modantaion Racers
-T-rated Arkham Asylum
-All the racing + Sports games
And hell, I started gaming when I was 10 with my first game being Metal Gear Solid! How young are we talking here? 5, 6 years old?
Treblaine 3 months ago 3
Hahaha the PS3 cost more than a grand when it was released here in Sweden... That's kinda sad...
Zoeres 3 months ago
Kinda like how Disney Channel doesn't want to appeal to anyone with A Y chromosome.
Launchpad05 3 months ago
@Launchpad05 Indeed. Disney buys Marvel and then shuffles their Marvel content off to Disney XD, a chennel only available in the pricier cable packages.
NightcrawlerZERO 3 months ago
@NightcrawlerZERO And A channel formally known as 'Toon Disney', that use to air the good Disney cartoons, and now runs garbage like 'Zeke & Luthor', 'I'm In The Band', and 'Pair Of Kings'. It's pathetic that the Marvel shows, including the awesome 'Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes' has to share space with this crap.
Launchpad05 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DrinkingGamer
So should I consider DVD players toys then, since they do nothing more than play movies and audio CD's.
I should call filmmakers toy makers since they are playing pretend as well.
They are sophisticated devices, not some cheap plastic toy. They aren't toys, stop sticking up for your buddy game overthinker.
snake2006 4 months ago
@DrinkingGamer
So should I consider DVD players toys then, since they do nothing more than play movies and audio CD's.
I should call filmmakers toy makers since they are playing pretend as well.
They are sophisticated devices, not some cheap plastic toy. They aren't toys, stop sticking up for your buddy game overthinker.
snake2006 4 months ago
@snake2006 what difference does it make? Who cares if it's a toy, game, computer or whatever. The point is that without appealing to newer and younger audiences, the game industry will decline.
greatemperorsteve 3 months ago
If comics were sold in the same places where 'Harry Potter', and 'Twilight' books are sold, maybe they could still reach younger readers, and not be limited to older fans who dwell at comic shops.
Launchpad05 4 months ago
Moviebob referred to Naruto as "Backwards!!" BLASPHEMY!!!! Shame on you Moviebob. It not mangas fault for the American comic book industry's stupidity in not targeting children any more manga just filled in the gap and thank God for that. The Anime and manga boom in the 90s probably would have been as huge if that Gap was not there there to fill.
X23Ninja 4 months ago
@Sonicdude303
I was playing M games, when they were brand new things. I work in video game retail and I see parents buying kids games like Black Ops,Modern Warfare, GTA,Gears,Halo and the like. Once again it proves how full of pretentious bullshit Overthinker is. He has no fucking idea what he is talking about in 99% of his videos, he uses some big words and people flock to him like he is a guru speaking the truth.
When he is full of shit. Also the date is meaningless,it still holds today.
snake2006 4 months ago
They don't push pixels anymore unless it's for 2d sprites. It's all polygons now.
snake2006 4 months ago
@snake2006 It's just a figure of speech. And besides, Polygons use pixels too. What do you think the color on a 3D model is made of?
Sonicdude303 4 months ago
@Sonicdude303 sunshine, rainbows and butterflies?
turokandzelda 4 months ago
But so far the only good ratchet and clanks are for ps2... I miss naughty dog's jak:(
lotro4ever4000 4 months ago
Damn. Mind blown. Now I need a towel for my computer screen. Sony and Microsoft, come up with some more wonderful toys.
werdman24 4 months ago
Videobob thinks clearly I love it
DAVICIOUSX 4 months ago
.....wow, he's right, there will ALWAYS be new kids, and they always like the same thing. But adult tastes change every generation. Nintendo is already screwing Sonny and Microsoft with half heart attempts now! They are in deep mud.
626Link 4 months ago
and thus, kinect and move
viking977 4 months ago
@viking977 no, more like why were seeing naughty dog ending the uncharted series and suckerpunch handing the development of the next sly cooper off to a port company for it's last stages.
sony is moving to make their owned development studios push more kid appealing(read not friendly) games, if that catches on we may see a return of a serious(read not on a hand held or about racing) jak and daxter game or who knows capcom might bring one of theirs out of the hat(like say a console based MML3).
malivaxx 4 months ago
@malivaxx have to say, spyro the dragon and crash bandicoot making comebacks appeals to me.
more games with a lightness of tone would be nice, like games that manage to hit that sweet spot of friendly to kids and new gamers but with enough challenge to be fun for veterans. the original ratchet and clank did this quite nicely.
fuck now i want to play ratchet and clank, such a great game.
viking977 4 months ago
Great points all, my friend. It's nice to see someone express these ideas in an intelligent manner.
BTW, however, comic sales are at their highest since right before the mid-90's bust. And their are plenty of comics aimed at kids and at bringing new readership.
lycanfan 5 months ago
And look at the PS3's line-up now, A LOT more than Ratchet and Clank. Great video though.
Tru3Innovator77 5 months ago
Call me immature, but I heard "Your Wii is a toy" and "balls are toys" being spoken within a minute of each other and just burst out laughing. xD
Vahkiti 5 months ago
solutions to problem:
1. bring back crash and spyro
2. parents need to let their kids play more mature games at a youg age, like how my parents bought me mortal kombat as soon as it came out for the playstation
DOOMLORDDRADIUS 5 months ago
Eh ever play COD with all the little 12year olds playing that? And lets be fair XBox and Playstation cover the teen market somewhat with their games. Although I must admit the Playstation seems to have an aging audience, which I've been growing up with, from PS1 which had a large child base (Crash, Spyro etc), PS2-the most popular-mostly teen audience, PS3 is undeniably 20+ gamers primarily now, may explain the reduced sales. I wouldn't expect the demographic to change much next gen though.
gunninlinguist 5 months ago
dragon ball is better then any american comic I have ever read
geof98 6 months ago
you are so far ahead of everyone.... this probably wont be a problem for like ten years, but you're absolutly right. good video.
JudasHeartbreaker 6 months ago 19
Mario=Kid Friendly
Sonic=Kid Friendly
Ratchet=Kid Friendly
MegaMan=Kid Friendly
Simon Belmont=Mainly Kid Friendly
Master Chief=Adult
So Nintendo,Sega,Capcom,Konami and Sony have the GAMER audience (A.K.A. Kids),while Microsoft decided, "We have the HARDCORE (The REAL hardcore audience is Kids but thats not what Microsoft thinks) audience in our grasps so we are the best company!" First of all, Nintendo has always been the best and will always be with Sony in second, (the third party developers
DJInsaneNinja 6 months ago
@DJInsaneNinja If Ratchet is kid-friendly, then why are most of his games rated T for Teen?
Also, I will have to address this: What's so kid friendly about a man trying to defeat Dracula and his army of the undead? The art style doesn't exactly lend itself to being "kid-friendly" either. Look at Symphony of the Night, for instance.
Konami is hardly kid-friendly nowadays, what with all the Metal Gear and Castlevania games. They tried to bring Sparkster back, but no one paid attention.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
@DJInsaneNinja Capcom's apparently rumored to be killing OFF its kid-friendly mascot. If the Jak series hadn't gone a complete 180 into a darker tone after the first game, then it would have been alright. But no, one day, it's kid friendly, the other, Jak's an angsty, sulking, vengeful a-hole(being infected with Dark Eco doesn't help) and everything's gone to rubbish.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
Whilst you do draw up some problems with the industry, i.e. same franchise with slightly better graphics and an aging audience drools over it instead of a good story, this video is too reactionary. Just as board games have not stopped being enjoyed I do not think video games shall soon. Hell, there are may board game video games.
Iwubchickenwubbins 6 months ago
Comment removed
imperialcrypt 2 months ago
fuck capcom, MEGAMAN WILL LIVE FOREVER, NINTENDO WILL GET HIM BACK!!!!
TheSmashDoctor 6 months ago 10
@TheSmashDoctor Sad thing is, this comment is from 6 months ago. STILL NO MEGAMAN. I feel your pain...
Lollipop708 1 week ago
You know, lately, this video is becoming more relevant, especially with Capcom trying to kill the Megaman franchise. Megaman was one of the only kid-oriented franchises Capcom had, but what happened? They only have Street Fighter and Resident Evil nowadays.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
Aquaman was badass before they chopped off his hand
To quote Grant Morrison: "He's the baddest ass in the seven seas"
jackedsamurai772 6 months ago
@jackedsamurai772 Doesn't Namor the Submariner have that title? Apparently he's tried to take over the surface world on more than one occasion.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
5:20: "Oh, you still can't get younger kids to read comics by the way..."
Young Avengers and Runaways are both great series and very suitable for younger audiences. I read a whole lot of Marvel's stuff because of them. I now know mostly who is Marvel and who is DC and I actually know something about characters that haven't been in other media much like Captain America.
yagsuomynona 6 months ago
I like this video's style.
I think it's exaggerating the financial threat, but man, the video game industry really needs to snap out of it's "the game either has to be super violent or cater to your grandma" mentality, right now it's really only Nintendo that keeps on making colorful high quality games that don't involve decapitation or planning to implement that feature in the game's sequel. As someone who doesn't appreciate shooting people in the head, no wonder I almost only play Nintendo.
VolcanicPenguin 6 months ago
how many other companies in other industries make 'toys' exclusively for adults, o i dun know bout a million. this video is retarded.
incy247 6 months ago
well, xbox also has Marcus Fenix
draco1002 6 months ago
@draco1002 But Gears of War wasn't meant to draw in a younger audience either.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
@RocMegamanX Yeah, but it is also just as well known as Halo is
draco1002 6 months ago
@draco1002 His point is that Microsoft and Sony needed more franchises that reached out to the younger generation. Gears of War and Halo aren't those games.
No, playing on Xbox Live doesn't count either.
RocMegamanX 6 months ago
It's call pc gaming. No offense though great movie and speech but there is still the pc game producers like Steam and Minecraft and what nots.
iforgotitathome 6 months ago
Kids are playing Call of dootah !
Bring on the next video games crash !
cov1estalker 6 months ago
Hey now, the comics industry has been able to pick itself up, slap itself for it's 90's fuck ups, and use that fat movie cash to reestablish itself.
lycanfan 6 months ago
...I actually thought of Ratchet and Clank before the end of the video.
I guess I was the voice in the back.
JackVolnutt 6 months ago
i vote Kratos for the mascot of the PS3 he loves children!
ZayLong 7 months ago
Oh christ on a crutch, I'm getting sick of this. I'm tired to trying to be mature, and arguing this calmly and intellectually. I swear, I'm about ready to write a thesis on why games are valid as an artisict medium. I really, really, really hope the gaming community has gotten over this 'oh we're just playing with toys and want to be honest about it' by the time I have time I have time to play games again Like film, animation, novels ,and comics, games can be literature! EEEERRrrrr....
drakencorin 7 months ago
@drakencorin He does point out that games are also art. I think his point has more to do with the fact that the games need to be able to keep grabbing kids otherwise we aren't going to be able to sustain the games.
Darkstar1484 7 months ago
I read comic books, and I'm 14. I can't stand manga because they're hyper-sexual and treat women like objects and men like pigs or spineless cowards. This is not me saying that all heroes should be Rorshach, but in manga and anime, if a hero is male, he is either a wimp who relies on the pair of tits following him around or a man with a sword bigger than his body.
Dark Horse all the way, man.
soopahfr433k 7 months ago
@soopahfr433k You know... Manga is actually a medium and not a genre... There are other kinds of manga out there. You're basically looking at the "Image comics" of an entire artform and putting it in the same class. Branch out, son.
JetstreamGW 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@soopahfr433k
and you just proven yourself to be an ignorant moron
DrMlieko 7 months ago
@soopahfr433k
Yeah, I love Lucifer, wicked series. But I also love anime, though your complaint about male character archetypes is valid. You have do a bit of rummanging for the good stuff. You should go watch anything involving Mahiro Maeda, and read anything by Shirow Masamune though, you might see the medium in a different light :-)
drakencorin 7 months ago
I disagree with the certainty put forward by Moviebob here. Let me bring in some old school price tags for consoles here: back in 1986 (thats 6 years before I was born) the NES released for $200+ depending on the bundle you bought, heck 4 years before that the Atari 2500 cost $330 on release. I'm not going to check the inflation rates of the Dollar over that time but needless to say the consoles were f-ing expensive.
splat20 7 months ago
A shit ton of kids still play? I got my ass beat at Halo by a eight year old. Good theory it can happen but young fans haven't been edged out yet. I believe this could happen but not now? We also have a bunch of gamers that still play that are in college trust me because I am one so are my friends.
OmgAZ0mbie 7 months ago
...well damn.
h1tm0nl33 7 months ago
Great video but what about Kratos, a car (GRAND TURISMO) LBP sock boy, etc, Imo, every age should have a mascot for their respective level. as for xbox, i mean.. Master Chief, Marcus pheonix, etc.
FrankWest125 7 months ago
@Condeycon sorry to say, my sons and their friends are currently disagreeing from me proposing they like gun games.
Neutral1 7 months ago
I have a big problem with Bob's argument here. He goes on about how all the grim-dark settings and 'adult' themes will naturally not be appealing to kids and thus not refresh gamings userbase once this generation passes.
But seriously think for a minute and ask yourself who are playing the CoD's, the Halos and all the other grim-dark things that Bob is railing against? Thats right, its those annoying 12-year-old teabagging noscopers who relish in this stuff the most.
Condeycon 7 months ago
@Condeycon The fact is, kids today are different from when Bob was a kid. The things that appealed to kids 10-20 years ago, are not the same things that still have them begging for their parents money now. The mascots and cute fuzzy creatures of yesteryear are giving way to the military fetishism and grim-dark antiheros of today.
Kids today have grown up in this setting, they are conditioned to like it just as much as the cute and fuzzy things. Thats where I think Bob is wrong.
Condeycon 7 months ago
Psone had spyro and crash bandicoot!
tigerproductions4 8 months ago
oh my GOD maybe its just cuz im backdating all these videos right now and i havent ran into the subject yet, but it sounds like your completely missing indie games. i believe, just like how in the early 2000s indie music took over mainstream for a while before it was stirred up into one genre cuz of myspace music and purevolume, indie games will slowly influence and take over mainstream...granted this vid was made way before minecraft/ super meat boy/ limbo
darkinertia2 8 months ago
"Nature abhors a vacuum."
With that picture, what I heard was "Nature arbors a vacuum." Cracked a smile.
skellytinhood 9 months ago
I don't agree with the whole video games are aimed at the younger demographics, mostly because it isn't. The first game, which is arguably "tennis for two", was made by some guy/s, to be entertained. Which means it never was aimed at the younger demographics, it was aimed for all people. Nintendo turned it to a medium aimed for children.
SemLeeSnake 9 months ago
toys are for children most of games now aren't sorry overthinker , or , MOVIE BOB!!
*dramatic music*
WatchOutBR 9 months ago
@WatchOutBR
Ever saw a Friday the 13th action figure?
I did
I know a guy who collects them
So yeah, there are toys for adults
your argument fails
DrMlieko 8 months ago
my wee s a toy
ImJustSkyo 9 months ago
@ImJustSkyo
That I would actually agree with, it's never really been marketed otherwise. Some of my favourite games are not however. See argument posted throughout comments :-)
drakencorin 7 months ago
@drakencorin I don't remember what I wrote, but I'm glad you agree :)
ImJustSkyo 7 months ago
Solution: Reset the Gregorian calendar to 1985.
silentzorah 10 months ago
Sure video game companies are marketing less for children, but have you seen what kids ARE being aloud to play with today? Most parents don't mind their children playing with T games, and many don't mind them playing with M games. My little cousin who is only 10 years old has played assassin's creed 2 before I have. So just because they're not marketing a game to a kid doesn't mean the kid won't play it.
lucas5665 10 months ago
@lucas5665 Since when did parents not mind kids playing M games? T games I can understand, since most of them are pretty tame, but M games? Whoa. This is news to me. Of course, this IS probably because I rarely ever play M games, and never online, thank god. It still gives me chills thinking about that one 12-year old kid I heard swearing his butt off when I was playing Soul Calibur 4, a T game. Now that I think of it though, WHY I only ran into ONE 12 year old has just reared its ugly head...
DracoFlame67 6 months ago
Well at least PC can't really stop since computers will always be profitable.
DylanofMD 10 months ago
Comment removed
lillixygirl 10 months ago
What about PC gaming? You keep preaching about the Xbox, PS3 and Wii, but that's half of the gaming market. The other half is on the computer.
hginct 10 months ago
Couldn't DISAGREE more. You are simply wrong here. Gaming is the next step of multimedia, an interactive art form. Video games are not toys and more than films are toys. No-one would ever describe a film or book as a "toy" but 'The Little Mermaid' and 'Harry Potter' are made for kids are they not? We can have games made for kids, just as we have films made for kids, but that doesn't mean we denegrate video gaming to the realm of Toys any more than we do the movie industry. You're WRONG!
TornadoCreator 10 months ago
@TornadoCreator It's a toy because you PLAY it.... Seriously, stop trying to compare games to movies, k?
Movies are great when they have a great story...
GAMES are great when they're fun to play....
Y'know... Movies and books aren't toys because you don't PLAY them, you watch/read them, you are passive....
Games are toys because you PLAY them, nothing happens unless you MAKE IT happen! There's nothing wrong with being toys either... It falls into the same realm as tabletop RPG's and/or wargames!
Terryracoon 10 months ago
@Terryracoon
OK, let's look at the definition of a toy shall we.
1. Something for children to play with - Really? Dead Space, Silent Hill, Resident Evil, these are for kids are they?
2. Something of little importance, trivial - I guess you've never been touched on an emotional level by a game have you?
3. An amusement, a passtime - This also applies for sports, films, books etc.
4. A small ornament, a bauble - No, games are not this.
Put simply. GAMES ARE NOT FUCKING TOYS!
Think about it.
TornadoCreator 10 months ago
@TornadoCreator
1. There are toys for adults(sexdolls? *pervface* not really but think D&D, it's too complicated for kids, and is a toy, meaning adults play it), and even kids toys can be enjoyed by some adults
2. I was, mostly FF games and other JRPG's, and if scared counts, then silent hill too....
3. You just said it
4. yea, nothing to do...
Well, out of 4 definitions you gave me, games fit 2 of them.... So... I guess this puts games comfortably into the "toy" category....
Terryracoon 10 months ago
@Terryracoon
How do they fit 2 out of 4? They're not for children, they're not of little importance or trivial, and they're not small ornaments or baubles. So the only definition that fits is "An amusement, a passtime". Now if that definition alone makes something a toy, A DVD, a book, the act of swimming, a well timed fart and a blowjob are all toys... something tells me they're not. Why can't a game just be a game? Calling it a toy implies it fits the first two definitions, which it doesn't.
TornadoCreator 10 months ago
@Terryracoon
Ffffff. yeah, coz 50% is an acceptable average....
drakencorin 7 months ago
@TornadoCreator Why do toys have to be for children? I play with toys at my age, and I am NOT a child.
Why do games have to be of little importance? Fuck, warhammer miniatures can cost HUNDREDS of dollars.
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
For some reason, YouTube decided in it's infinite wisdom to not inform me of your response until now. Ok, "why do toys have to be for children", because they do! They are DEFINED as being for children. "Why do games have to be of little importance", they don't. I never said they did. I was defining 'toy'. A game and a toy are not the same thing. Basketball is a game, to use overthinkers example, hense adults play it, barbie is a toy... not the same. Video games are GAMES not toys.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator a basketball is a toy, used to play a game. You keep using these words, but you have no idea what they mean.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
I don't need an "idea", I have a fucking definition you bloody cretin. How hard is this concept for you to accept? How about we choose something different because a 'ball' is ambiguous in many ways. A golf club? A pool cue? A formula one ferrari? A deck of playing cards? An Xbox controller? none of these things are toys. A tenuous argument could be made for calling them tools, but not toys. Just because something is used for a passtime doesn't make it a toy! A dictionary; use one.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator I don't think you checked the actual definition of the word, because that point only works in my favor.
"plaything: an artifact designed to be played with" is what comes up consistently in every up to date dictionary I've checked. Its moot though.
Oh, and quit being a belligerent douchebag. I know its super edgy and cool to be abrasive and presumptuous on the internet, but if you're going to argue with me, you're going to be civil, otherwise I'm just going to stop responding.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator These facts don't effect our argument though, hence my choice to omit them myself. This is because as far as I personally am concerned, a textbook definition doesn't do our argument any good, since our argument isn't in definition, its in nature. Do you think video games shouldn't be considered toys on the basis of artistic merit, or can't be considered toys on the basis of their target audience (which is humorously fallacious on so many levels)? Please clarify your position.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
Honestly, I consider video games to not be toys based on intended purpose. While their purpose is entertainment, it is not "play". I will now justify this statement. While it is possible to play with some games, most have a story to tell, skill to master or artistic point or purpose to convey. In the same respect, you can "play" a guitar, but it is not a toy. I consider entertainment of a more complex nature, such as that of a film, book or video game, to disqualify it as a toy.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
....(part 2), basically I'm arguing for complexity. A toy is something you simply play with, but there is no wrong way to play with a toy, it's simply imaginative play. A game however, has rules, methods, a system. Reguardless of the format, be it Monopoly or GTA 4, you can play with these things incorrectly, this elevates them from beyond simple imaginative play to structured play, we're bordering on the realm of sports here. This is where I draw the line between games and toys.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator Your argument has a hole. This train of reason relies on a concept that isn't true, that games are based in a context, before they are based in recreation. Before a game has to function as literature, it must function as entertainment, and they are not the same in this medium. Games can exist as videogames without a plot, or a proper theme or premise.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
True, games can exist without story, plot or theme, pacman and asteroids are good examples, but they cannot exist without rules or structure. These games have a different purpose to storytelling, competitive challenge. Can you get the high score? Again, there is a structure to the game. Even the most simple games are structured play, not imaginative play which is the purpose of a toy.
PS: Yes I would argue bored games and jigsaw puzzles are also not toys.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
Comment removed
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator You're arguing semantics then.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
Yes, but semantics are not unimportant. The word 'toy' carries conotations that I don't appreciate and find insulting. I wouldn't claim a film buff, sports fan or musician was "playing with a toy" if they where watching a DVD, playing with a football or playing a guitar and I don't like the dismissive nature of people doing such with my hobby, it's disrespectful and honestly rather innaccurate because it's not just "a toy" many games require a lot of skill or convey a complex story.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator Toy is being used as a descriptive, not as a derogatory. Semantics is a pointless argument by nature.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
But as a descriptive it fails, as I explained earlier video games don't actually fit the technical definition of a toy and most people consider toys to be an exclusively child based thing. I want to be able to discuss games and have the average person consider what I'm talking about in the same way they would consider a book or film, so no, toy doesn't fit and I don't consider it mere semantics. It's insulting because it's a purposeful way of demeaning video games, it IS derogatory.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator And I already told you that the textbook definition backs me up. Again, you have two logical outs. The first, that videogames as a medium can be appreciated for nothing more than quality, like traditional art, paintings, and the like, or that otherthinker used it in a derogatory context, both of which are false.
shoopoop21 9 months ago
@shoopoop21
First, video games can be appreciated for their "quality", and I'm not even sure what you mean by that... I consider video games the same way I do film. Films are art would you not agree, they're certainly not toys right? Second, the overthinker DOES mean it derogatorally. He says "...are TOYS" to mean "You take these too seriously, they're incidental and should be an unimportant passtime that comes after the other aspects of your life", he doesn't treat it like a mature hobby.
TornadoCreator 9 months ago
@TornadoCreator
Thank you for taking up this mantle. If we lived in the same country and could keep things civil I'd love to see a proper debate. This is turning into a very devisive little argument about what games should be and mean. I'm half teampted to write an essay on this when I finally have the time, just for the hell of it and try and structure my thoughts around this 'Games as Art' concept.
drakencorin 7 months ago
@drakencorin
Thank you. I'm glad that you spurred on by my arguments. I honestly feel video games have the potensial to be the next great method of artistic expression. Games like Shadow Of The Colossus via it's visuals and gameplay shows this, where as game like Lost Odyssey shows this via charactarisation and exploration, a very different method. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. The fact is, The Overthinker is embarrased by his games, you can tell by his tone. I'm proud of them...
TornadoCreator 7 months ago
@TornadoCreator
Definition for toy:
plaything: an artifact designed to be played with
ImJustSkyo 7 months ago
@ImJustSkyo
Where did you come up with that definition because I got mine from the dictionary. You appear to have made yours up entirely.
TornadoCreator 7 months ago
@TornadoCreator google:
"define: toy"
ImJustSkyo 7 months ago
@ImJustSkyo
Google is wrong then, because none of the accepted dictionary definitions I can find read like that.
TornadoCreator 7 months ago
@TornadoCreator heretic!
ImJustSkyo 7 months ago
@ImJustSkyo
What? Did you forget to take your pills or something. Also, an aditional point, you don't "play with" a game, you "play" a game. It's not the same. You "play with" a doll, you "play" a CD. The word play can have subtle differences and nuances. Everything that you "play" is not by virtue of being played a "toy". You're wrong. Simple as that.
TornadoCreator 7 months ago
@TornadoCreator oh shit, my pills!
ImJustSkyo 7 months ago
@ImJustSkyo
But is gaming, playing? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, round and round and round we go :-)
drakencorin 7 months ago
Seeing this is from 2008, KInect is now here which is more based on the household and there for they will create more games for a younger audience as well, Yet they still don't have an Mascot!
Sony did had a few, and probably will bring them back if they still have the rights to it as well. Saying all this!? I do think you need to update this topic for the near future, or atleast someday.
psyku 10 months ago
bob should have used the Home Console Crash of 83... It was FAR more relavent...
Kenshiro3rd 11 months ago
Again I find something irksome here. I find the description 'videogames are toys' really dismissive to the point of insulting. I'm a narratologist, I play games for the same reason I read books and graphic novels and watch movies, tv and anime; for a good story, not purely out of some nostalgic need to connect to my childhood which Mr. Overthinker seems to think games are for. Gaming has the potential to be literature yet, don't discourage it by telling it it has to be a toy.
drakencorin 11 months ago 11
@drakencorin
Thing is toys are not an insult unless you feel really insecure. There is nothing wrong with one of your daily activities which might be gaming not having a greater cause like "good story". Toys esentially are made for one thing: To fill our free time with "entertainment". If you feel like your entertainment is disrupted by someone who said something you dont really agree or your gut reaction to disagree... then I ask you if you dont really need entertainment but social acceptance
DzonatanGavert 11 months ago
@DzonatanGavert
Interesting, but I only agree to a point. This is partially about social acceptance, but not mine. It's about the social acceptance of gaming, and again, calling it a toy is demeaning as the medium is still struggling to gain credibility as an artistic form, and avoiding being a scapegoat for social ills, which it still tends to. Film, writing, animation et all may be 'entertainment' but do you really think 'toys' is also a suitable word? I don't, and I think the same for games.
drakencorin 11 months ago
@drakencorin
TL:DR
Just do what you enjoy and dont give a damn about what others say. Even if you play barbie dolls.
DzonatanGavert 11 months ago
@DzonatanGavert
Very succinct; but you're rather doggedly missing the point. I do enjoy the literature I consume in my free time, I have no care for any judgements on my personal tastes in entertainment and you're suspicion of insecurity on my part is irrelevant anyway. But I would like to see more creativity, depth and meaning in literature, specifically in gaming, which is lacking despite its potential, partly because they are still popularly percieved as 'toys', not art or literature.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin
Who said toys cant be creative, deep and meaningful?
Arent they creative, deep and meaningful already?
DzonatanGavert 10 months ago
@DzonatanGavert
They can, but that is not their primary function, which is to entertain, and entertainment does necessitate the complexities of narrative literature. It sounds pretentious, but liturature does more than entertain, it inspires thought and emotion that goes beyond simply being 'amused' or 'destracted' from the real world. I would not suggest that all gaming needs to aspire to being literature, but my complaint is it gets pidegon-holed as a toy, which (again) limits its potential.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin
Do you think the hidden potential is worth the trouble?
Dont you think that it would be easier in terms of bandwidth of existance and time to simply follow the mainstream belief of games are toys and books are inspiration?
DzonatanGavert 10 months ago
Comment removed
drakencorin 10 months ago
@DzonatanGavert
Yep, 100% I think it is worth the trouble. Silent Hill 2, Max Payne, Ico and Shadow of the Colussus, Starcraft, Final Fantasy 7, Bioshock; these are the games that have moved me and thrilled me, and there are far too few of them. It's why I don't game all that much, but am thrilled when I do come across a game that is truly unique, has depth to its world, its characters and its ideology. I'm a snob I'll admit, but screw the mainstream, give me alternative and arthouse et al.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin
I totally dig you champ. Have you ever played Xenogears?
DzonatanGavert 10 months ago
@DzonatanGavert
Cheers :-) No, I think I've vaguely heard of it. I'll look into it.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin A book is a toy.
shoopoop21 11 months ago
@shoopoop21
I politely disagree :-)
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin You can't disagree with a fact. Definition is a realm of fact.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
Then I question your definition. Even if there is some truth to the statement, it is limiting. A book is more than a toy, and given that it requires proficiency in written language to use I'd say it's more of an educational tool, if it is not being used purely as a delivery method for narratives.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin using that logic, nothing is a toy, since almost any toy could have another application. That application has no more or less merit just because its cerebral, thats just deceptive.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
Comment removed
drakencorin 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
I don't think it's deceptive, and actually, following this logic, many objects are still toys, the lego collection now residing under my stairwell for example, and the list I assure you would be lengthy. And I again disagree, I place greater merits on literature 'precisely because' its more cerebral, and I would like to see this more in gaming, which, as the Extra Creditz fellas point out is more likely now thanks to the presence of tertiary institutions who teach game design.
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin google lego art. Duchamp would like to have a stern word with you. Your logic is still subject to perception based qualifiers.
I don't know why there is anything wrong with a toy being art, when we collect and trade them at prices denoting worth beyond practical use. Vintage dolls are art. A human likenesses from legos are art. Video games are art, but they are also toys.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
Admittedly I've never heard of Duchamp. But I see we're coming from two entirely different value sets, both of which are subject in some manner to each of our tastes, and we may need to both just accept this before we resort to angry ranting. I'll even concede on your dolls example. I also used to play WH40k, but I gave it up because I was lest interested in the models as art or a game, and more interested in it as a compelling sci-fi world, and preferred to read about it.... part 1
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin If you don't know who Duchamp is, you have absolutely no authority to tell anyone anything about what constitutes art at any level, due to an inadequate amount of background to formulate an informed opinion on the subject. Lacking any sort of reputability, I say that what you say is just that, your opinion, which means its worth basicly nothing to anyone other than yourself. However, that is ok. Just don't attempt to pass this into the realm of facts. Video games are toys.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
Comment removed
drakencorin 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
Heh, dude, you don't have a clue about my background, and lacking certain information on a person or subject is only limiting in that specific context. Given that we're talking about something as abstract as art, no one has 'authority' over anyone else, stop being pretentious. My opinion is informed by my background, which isn't inferior, just different. Wait... Duchamp, that's the urinal guy, post-cubism right? Yeah, not a fan of modern art, can't stand Picasso and Warhol... part1
drakencorin 10 months ago
@drakencorin Not knowing who Duchamp is, and then rattling on about art, is like saying you don't know who Shigeru Miyamoto is, and then rattling on about game design (No, Duchamp is not the Miyamoto of art).
You don't have the minimum required knowledge to make an informed opinion on the subject. You might know a whole damn lot about the vidya, but until you also have constructed an actual background on the subject, you have less an idea what you're talking about than my mother does.
shoopoop21 10 months ago
@shoopoop21
Mwahaha. I wondered when our mothers were going to enter this exchange. You still fail to comprehend that we're simply debating this from different backgrounds, neither is more qualified than the other. This is a testing of our theories against the other's point of view and intellect, not a 'my background's bigger than yours' cock-measuring competition. You don't need to have studied all of art history to have the right to debate artistic values, that's is absurd.... part 1
drakencorin 10 months ago