Che was a nut case, like many revolutionaries, from the American Revolution to the French Revolution, before and after. The guy didn't believe in judicial revue, nor habeas corpus. He helped fight against oligarchy but that doesn't make him a great guy. I think people get caught up in the romance of his exploits and the validity of his convictions, he spoke against aparteid, etc., and some how allow themselves to rationalize his more deviant desires and actions. Ah, well. Everyone needs a hero.
@BARCACROSSESTHEALPS Well said....and as pointed out in a prior post, Che was an inept revolutionary who looked good in a beret. As to his primary accomplishment, which was to install the corrupt Castro regime in place of the corrupt Batista regime, that's nothing to brag about. But like you said, people need heroes so they take them where they can find them.
LOL @ these people arguing on behalf of Cuba OR the USA. Both are shitholes. Both have corrupt leaders. Both sets of populations need to rise up in revolution and overthrow their masters. Arguing who is the best country out of the 2, is like arguing who's turd is the least foul smelling. THEY'RE BOTH TURDS.
@TheLyingTruthTeller Any nation with a government is a turd. Hence, every nation is a turd. Therefore, unless you live on an island with syndicalism, you live in a "shit hole." ....Welcome to the neighborhood!
@BARCACROSSESTHEALPS Let me guess, you're sixteen years old, right? and probably never had a job in your life. Didn't daddy let you borrow the Buick last night? Poor baby.....
@TheLyingTruthTeller Oh well, if that's what you are you must know that you will become obsolete within the next six months and be replaced by another piece of reprogrammed software. In your next incarnation you may well become an aid to corporate attorneys looking to cut down on their employer's tax liabilities. Enjoy!!
Che Guevara was a charismatic but inept revolutionary who took part in installing a corrupt dictator named Fidel Castro as ruler of Cuba. Aside from the fact that he was a flamboyant figure who looked good in a beret, why would anyone want to emulate him? Helping to create a Communist dictatorship on an island nation in the Caribbean is nothing to brag about.
@sebnov And you are apparently a Che worshiper who fails to see that his legacy was to help install a brutally repressive Communist regime in Cuba. And you think that I'm the idiot? LOL
Don't you realise that he liberated Cuba from his opressors? Whatever Fidel has done to Cuba afterwards is not his fault, he was in Bolivia trying to help another country.
@sebnov Sorry, but if you take an active part in installing a corrupt brutal dictator into power then you have to take some of the blame for what that dictator does afterward. All Che accomplished was to initiate the replacement of one dictatorship with another that was equally bad. It was like replacing Saddam Hussein with Moammar Ghadaffi and then claiming to have "liberated" the people. Who's kidding who?
@JackKangaroo1 You have to understand Cuba is a third world country! Its was a rich country with a good oil supply at one point however america drained it. Fidel has made sure no citizen falls under the poverty line, gave the land back to the people, reduced taxation, created a stronger sugar production, freed the people from american imperialism, makes sure every child from the age of 1 has a full education and is not have to work until they have finished education.
@JackKangaroo1 Cuba has the best doctor to civilian ratio than any other country. Has many teachers in the education system. Now why is the country suffering? The bay of pigs destroy 80% of agriculture in Cuba, destroyed many building, raised the spending on militarisation, created an isolated country in which cannot trade with other countries freely. America have banned any america citizen from spending money in Cuba.
@TheBroadribb Best doctor to civilian ratio, yet none of the doctors practice up to date medicine because they are paid what a dirt vendor is paid. Medicine in Cuba is third world at the very best & 18th century at worst. Che & Castro destroyed cuba with little to no help of any outside country. They can trade with almost every other country in the world yet they are still a backwater shithole.
@JackKangaroo1 America have taken 750 billion dollars from the already poor country in the embargo. The reason Cuba cannot have a fully functioning electoral system as it would put Cuban independence and success at risk. JFK called him a dictator and a threat to national security, wasn't JFK the one ordered the invasion of south Vietnam which lead to the destruction of over 80% of agriculture and over 2 million Vietnamese murdered in which also spread to Indochina.
@JackKangaroo1 Actually, the american embargo and america's anti-cuba, anti fidel castro, anti-communist policy is what led cuba to becoming a dictatorship.
Guess who was cuba's dictator before castro? USA.
All of america's worst criminals, fascists, gamblers, drug dealers and prostitutes were sent to cuba. Cuba was usa's trash can.
USA couldn't accept an independent communist cuba, so they tried to overthrow castro by sabotage, boycottage and by starting extensive propaganda in the US.
@lawndog6794 What, you mean like that Cuba is a Third World country and has been since the day Castro took over half a century ago? And that Che Guevarra helped bring this about? That's all I need to know about it.
@shurednichso Sure we have corruption here but we also have a means of cleaning it up. Senators, Congressmen, and several former governors of states have gone to prison for corruption. Castro has been a crook for more than half a century and he's never done a day in jail. That says it all.
Thats why nearly every single congressman gets massively sponsored by big corporations , the middleclass is vanishing and the richest people become richer.
Your typical "evil commi" lying propaganda becomes boring.
@JackKangaroo1 You clearly don't know about the corrupt regime that Castro overthrew. Batista was installed by America to keep their interests happy whilst he ruined Cuba and the mafia ran riot. Castro fought to change this corrupt regime and anyone who helped him should be proud of their achievements. You may believe that communism is the ultimate evil because of the right wing propaganda you're force fed in America but you must see how Castro changed Cuba for the better.
@JackKangaroo1 Oh dude/dudette, you are so uninformed. Watch a documentary about Che here on youtube. He was one of the most honest, most brave people we have had in history in our whole human race. He is a symbol of standing up for your rights.
really founoe ? ..ol Che hung out with the "masses " on weekends ...doing pick and shovel work like a regular guy ? ..indeed ,from what Ive read just from several different accounts ,ol Che woulda had to work a decade wortha sundays just to dig enough graves for all the hapless cubans that he shot PERSONALLY ,by his own hand . ..of course others say that Che himself only killed a dozen or so people and merely ordered the death of hundreds of others .
"..cubans that he shot PERSONALLY ,by his own hand ."
And then go on to make a statement like this:
"..of course others say that Che himself only killed a dozen or so people and merely ordered the death of hundreds of others ."
It's kind of a big difference.
But yes, Che killed about 10 or so soldiers in the revolutionary war. After the war he was the administrator of a facility where criminals were executed.
founoe...what ? ..Che Guevara was a bank director ?and a PRISON WARDEN ? ..the Che ? that fiery revolutionary we see on the Tee shirt ? lol ...he was f#king bank clerk and a "screw " ? ..a damned prison guard ?...did he also sell auto and life insurance on the side ?
Che was a Marxist revolutionary ,so ..by his definition ,anyone he shot ,or had shot ,was guilty of some crime ..by default .we know that Che was wonderful because many,many thousands of Cubans have perished in tiny rafts trying flee his "workers paradise " and reach the shores of the "oppressive imperialists " he so hated .
Che pretty much just worked as a prison warden and a bank director. Other than being friends with Fidel, he had very little influence over political decisions made by the Cuban government.
Wikipedia: Hitchens has written of his homosexual experiences when in boarding school in his memoir, "Hitch-22." These experiences continued in his college years when he allegedly had relationships with two men who eventually became a part of the Thatcher government.
@superclaydude Socialism= "a life of peace"? My friend, NO political philosophy can guarantee peace or prosperity. Utopia is a pipe dream. Political ideology is not the problem, the human condition is the problem. Cheers.
lets not even get into how many people the USA government has killed, how many wars we've funded in favor of our interests, the racism in our country, AND WE HAVE THE BALLS TO POINT FINGERS AT OTHERS? GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE
@JimBowie1133 Where is your evidence that he was racist in any way? As for being a "murderer," he was a guerilla and fought wars, and people get killed in war. Now, if he was killing civilian women and children, that would be a different matter, but if shooting an armed enemy in combat is murder, then all soldiers are murderers.
I love the idea that what people will remember Che Guevara for is being the guy on the T-shirt. His legacy will be that his face has been used as a marketing tool, something he would have hated.
Oh yeah, the murderer in favour of a totalitarian socialist regime wouldn't have been in favour of his face being used for propaganda. I think you can agree that from that perspective your comment is absurd. Only in that we aren't compelled to buy into the social organisation and plans for how to create product of Guevara t-shirt producers would that scumbag have been against marketing for trade for his wares, he'd have told us that only 'society' and him can run capital
@happymyst His image is marketed as representative symbology for a movement of courageous people who stand up against fascism, oppression, violence and greed. It is no wonder that those who need a violent unjust world to support their rapacious greed and overwhelming ignorance, have now been able to 'make a buck' out of his image and death. Fascists always profit from death somehow. Consider the Italian Royal Family (Savoy) now some of the richest on earth comfortable in Switzerland.
@happymyst I think to say that someone like Che will be remembered as a "marketing tool" simply because he sells a lot of merchandise is rather nonsensical. I think most people who purchase his image are either doing so because they know at least a little bit about him, or will soon know, because someone else will tell them. That's not a notion that requires you believe in who he was or what he stood for, just a simple recognition that his story is larger than life.
@happymyst idiots know him as the guy on the t-shirt. other people know him already or find out who he is (maybe due to the t-shirt) and become aware of him and what he stood for. i think he would have enjoyed the irony of that. he was a cool guy
@lawndog6794 Che Guevara the man who did so much (little?) to destroy capitalism is now one of the quintessential capitalists because of his facade, not his message.
Che was a murderer, yes murderer, and became an outright psychopath. He tried to instill his own type of Sharia Law after being a mass murderer @ during the revolution & La Cabaña prison. Concentration camps, G-2, G-6, rounding up of the unfit (minorities, sick, religious), sovietization, etc... yep 'cool' dude. LOL
I really couldn't take serious hitchens' moralizing over the religious after hearing him at the same later part of his life calling for genocide in North Korea, Iran, Iraq and Pakistan. Disgusting man. A total fascist, in one of the most real and totalitarian applications of the term.
@onefodderunit I know something about ethics. Hitchens was an elitist and couldnt think beyond it despite parading as an intellectual. He was a knowledgeable man, but also a narcissist and thus he had serious intellectual boundaries that he couldnt see no matter how much he read.
@phezla not too long back. Between GWB and Obama. It's on a video here on Youtube, Hitchens saying the US should attack Iran and North Korea. Saw/heard it with my own eyes and ears. Not sure which vid, sorry. It's been a while since I stopped paying attention to Hitchens. He was just not a very ethical man, I'm sad to say, as for a long time he was my hero.
@TheGodlessGuitarist i don't see what that would be like calling for genocide. i'm sure he never supported any action to harm the people, let alone get rid of them (which is what genocide is about). that he was not against military intervention in countries led by dangerous fanatic nutcases with atomic weapons and apocalyptic phantasies wouldn't surprise me though.
@phezla "i don't see what that would be like calling for genocide."
Most people are like you in that respect, however, like me, Hitchens knows about Western imperialism and that 'humanitarian/security interventions' are nothing more than attrocities largely against innocent people. More than a 1m dead to date in Iraq. Do you think that's an accident? Or, is it an accident that the news Western media largely reports only military casualities and not those of the civilians they murder?
@phezla The only nation to have used nuclear weapons is the US and they used them on civilians. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are without doubt the single most vile acts of terrorism in the history of the human race.
Like I said, you need to start think about your own crimes before you start waving your finger around.
@phezla If you are interested in familiarising yourself with the crimes of the West and how it happens without the knowledge of the homeland general populations, then I would recommend you start listening to scholars and journalists who are deliberaltely excluded from mainstream media for the most part. Examples include Naomi Klien, Paul Jay, Robert Fisk, Norman Finkelstein, Chris Hedges, John Pilger, Julian Assange, Noam Chomsky. Docus on YT: "Manufacturing Consent", "PsyWar"
@phezla "i'm sure he never supported any action to harm the people"
That is simply not true. Hitchens know what goes on in these so called 'interventions'. They are nothing more than manufactured wars in the name of Western profits.
Iran hasnt attacked another nation in over 200 years, except under the Shah who was a brutal dictator installed by the US/UK for the purposes of controlling Iranian oil.
@phezla as for 'dabgerous fanatic nutcases with atomic weapons', that describes every nuclear state. And for 'apocalyptic phantasies', that is just Western propaganda. Folks like Ahmedinehjad are indeed vile authoritarians, and a threat to their own populations they doubtlessly are, but they are nothing like as extreme as NATO for instance.
@89Czeko of course capitalist countries kills people. the first Gulf War was a good example of Blood for Oil. Bush senior and Bush junior were both idiots. Reagan too, he helped talibans against the soviets. See? We the capitalists do not WORSHIP MEN, the cult of personality is 100% socialist, cuz leftists are blind followers, fanatics like you. You are not a human, you are a robot, a soviet soldier, you obey orders from the Central Commitee
You think preventing the inevitable annexation of Kuwait translates to "blood for oil"? Seriously? Also, Pinochet was the object of a cult of personality in Chile, yet he was capitalist.
@trifulquita15 At the time the U.S supported dictators that were just as bad if not worst than Stalin throughout South America. throughout the cold war the U.S side proved to be much bloodier and dirtier than the Soviet side although both had their share of innocent blood. Pinochet rings a bell?
@luciferiexcelsil not only dictators in latin america, but talibans too. The US gov. is stupid everybody knows that, but doesnt mean commies were better. I prefer stupids in a capitalist democracy, because communists kills millions of their people
@trifulquita15 "I prefer stupids in a capitalist democracy, because communists kills millions of their people" Really? I mentioned Augusto Pinochet, I think that'd be enough to show that these "capitalist democracies" were not only just as bloody, but greatly hypocritical.
@trifulquita15 You may ask, "why hasn't it happened in the U.S?" oh it has, many who opposed the U.S government suddenly 'disappeared' during the 50's, 60's & 70's. A thing I'll give to these 'democratic' capitalists you seem to praise as the lesser evil, they're much quieter on getting rid of the opposition.
@trifulquita15 Che called Stalin "dad" in a time in his life when he was surrounded by Stalinist communists and short after Stalin's death, but as time went by he took a strong stance against everything to do with the Soviet Union. Openly declaring himself against the Soviet model and against Soviet imperialism as much as he opposed American imperialism. If you tried to use that as a way to make him look bad you undeniably failed.
@CHErevolucionDJC After MILLIONS OF DEADS i can't believe communists and nazis are still among us. If some ideology kills 80 people i would be shocked. Nazis and communists have no morals, no emphaty, no remorse. Che Guevara was planning to destroy THE ENTIRE WORLD with the soviet missiles in Cuba. Thank God the Soviet said: MAYBE DESTROYING THE WORLD IS NOT GOOD FOR COMMUNISM and the USSR removed the missiles. And guess what... Che Guevara was angry with the soviets
@trifulquita15 And I'm surprised you didn't use the so commonly quoted misunderstood quote. Che wanted to destroy the world? really? Che's plans, just like the plans of Fidel and Cuba were to keep the Soviet missiles within their borders as a defense strategy, in order to make the US think twice before trying to invade them. The U.S. had already tried the Bay of pigs, Cuba felt it was only a matter of time before a full scale invasion.
@trifulquita15 and you know what they weren't wrong in their assumptions.
This were some solution the U.S. came up in the time of the crisis:
1. No action.
2. Diplomacy:
3. Warning:
4. Blockade:
5. Air strike:
6. Invasion: Full force invasion of Cuba and overthrow of Castro.
And the US Joint Chiefs of Staff had agreed that an Invasion was the only solution. Had Kennedy not said other wise then Cuba's warning would have become true.
@CHErevolucionDJC Castro even said "If Cuba will be destroyed so be it". Any justification for using those missiles are futile. "USA could invade us so lets bring soviet missiles and lets start a nuclear war". Only a mentally ill leaders like Castro and Che could think that way. Krushev said "wait if we destroy the world, no more USSR, no more communism, no more vodka and hot russian girls". That's why Kennedy and Krushev made the agreement... Castro and Guevara said: "traitor!!! mother f%%@!!
@trifulquita15 "Cuba is on the alert, distinguished delegates, because she knows that imperialism would perish enveloped in flames, but that Cuba would also suffer in its own flesh the price of imperialism's defeat, and she hopes that it can be accomplished by other means. Cuba hopes that her children will see a better future, and that victory will not have to be won at the cost of millions of human lives destroyed by the atomic bomb." Che, Punta del Este Uruguay.
It's never a good thing to get lost in one's act. It was hard not to like Hitchens even though he seemed as trapped in his persona as Hunter Thompson was in his. May he rest in peace.
Well yes, hitchens wrote of his escapades from his youth in his new book, plus the news article of his death stated..."he died with "close" friends around" totally forgetting to mention any of his family, wife,children, siblings etc.. as they usually do.
And of course your right again ..the bible did cause the beast to raise it's ugly head!
@914light Look for atheism in the dictionary, it's not a beast, it's the lack of belief in a deity, religions and gods have killed more people than beasts look that. Also atheists die more without family members? Atheism is faith? the bible created atheism movements? the best countries in the world are atheists: Hitchens was known for discussing and winning. He had an agenda in pushing the criminal foreign policy of Bush, that was his bad.
Atheist communisim wins the gold medal for the millions starved or slaughtered over the last century. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, need I say more. Secular countries are the best in the world, no doubt about that. But these places are secular no more thanks to multiculturalism. Hitchens detested the islamification of erstwhile secular and liberal European utopias. George Bush is no longer an issue. islam also has an agenda. And it is profoundly anti-atheist.
@237KMT Communists didn't do bad things because the didn't have religion, the did it because they were collectivists and the communists states had a cult toward state and leaders. Atheism is not a political ideology, they were atheists but that has nothing to do, they were against religion because they wanted to control the individual or the masses completelly.
@237KMT There was never such thing as atheist communism... People like Mao & Stalin transformed Communism into the worship of personality and the power of the oligarchy. Communist authors like Marx, Engels and others actually were deists or pantheists, just like the great amount of the enlightenment philosophers. Atheism as the concept we hold today is relatively new.
hitchens was a racist, warped, bigot drunken buffoon, who was probably the reincarnation of that freak Aleister Crowley..the world is definitely better off
@914light That,s a bit harsh . Hardly an Aleister Crowley . Hitch was a bit of a rarity in the new atheist movement . A rarity in that he was an atheist that held strong conservative views .
Most atheists I,ve met are a boring bunch of left wing liberal wankers that would sell their soul to the devil .
So true about atheists ..but what I,ve seem / read of this hitchens..his agenda was racist and sinister with a generic way of delivering it. I find nothing rare about him. He was a practicing bisexual, a liar, a drunk, a zionist and total RACIST who slanted the bible or the news to fit his agenda, I guess that's consider a conservative. But he was a racist 1st and foremost, while using buffoonish childish ploys to shove the "truth" down peoples throat....
@914light What atheist doesn,t use the bible as the foundation of their faith . The bible is priority reading for every atheist . In fact if the bible did not exist I doubt atheism would be a phenominon .
Hitch was an arrogant, obnoxious, self promoting man whose opinions were dangerous and broadly anti-intellectual, yet irrespective of this I can't help but feel the world is not as fun without him.
About time this phoney Che Guevare was bought to account . As far as I know he was born into wealth in Argentina . Furthermore Castro thought him a no hoping bum who was glad to see the last of him .
Thank heavens no photographer ever got lucky with Bin Laden . Next thing every drone and his monkey would be wearing Bin Laden T shirts .
@LuluRosenkrantz I'll presume you are participating in some sort of financially powered society in which you participate and benefit from, which means you are also responsible for its crimes. How about thinking in terms of what you are responsible for, which I can promise you is a great deal worse than anything Che Guevara did or didnt do.
@TheGodlessGuitarist Che was from the affluent middle class . Che cared nothing for the proletariat but used them as usefull idiots to further his own selfish life style . Che could best be described as a latter day Talibani . An AK47 in one hand and a Quran in the other . In Che,s case ,a US made SLR and a copy of Mao,s little red book . Both are failures . No hoping bums that contribute nothing to humanity .
@LuluRosenkrantz Do you participate in the society of the country you live in? I suscribe to the principle that if you participate in a society and benefit from it then you are also responsible for its crimes. If you live in the US, UK, Israel, France, Italy, (NATO) then you should have the far more serious crimes on your own nation on your conscience. Che Guevara was a heroic humanitarian compared to most people in the West.
@LuluRosenkrantz SO you might want to consider what you are contributing to humanity and point your finger a little closer to home since Guevara was instrumental in freeing the Cuban people from US aggression and land grabbing. Guevara protected the peasant farmers from US sponsored terrorism and outright US terrorism by making alliances with the communist and socialist movements and finally the leadership. So, tell me, what have you done lately?
@TheGodlessGuitarist Che Guevara was a no hoping bum whos only claim to fame was a famous portrait . Castro tried giving him a place in his cabinet but soon realised Che didn,t have a brain in his head . In fact Castro was glad to see the last of him . Do you people ever think about the Chinese destruction Tibein culture ?The persecution of Coptic christians in Egypt ? What about the religious bigotry in Saudi Arabia ? Ethnic violence in Rwanda , Sudan or Nigeria ?
well it sounds all good. however his goals were completely different from what you claim here. he was a selfish bandit and a stupid one - i my say. stupidity and overreach was the reason he died, not heroism or some high humanistic political goals.
"however his goals were completely different from what you claim here"
I'm not claiming anything at all about Che Guevara's goals here.
"he was a selfish bandit and a stupid one"
Quite the opposite. He was very strict on soldiers who stole during the wars. And he famously said to a soldier who had taken a car that "it doesn't matter if that car belongs to Batista himself, you drive back and park that car where you found it."
@founoe Guevara killed himself and cold bloodely thousands of innocent people. He once killed a 16 year old boy with a shot in the forehead. Please read more about Guevara before commenting.
@founoe I've read eight books, both in english and spanish. In 1959 alone are 180 registered deaths by the hand of Guevara. He once killed a boy for writing on the wall. Just google "che firing squads".
“If any person has a good word for the previous government that is good enough for me to have him shot.” - Che
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
Che Guevara's role as administrator of La Cabaña was to warden prisoners and produce witnesses for the trials of previous government officials.
The only time Che actually executed someone himself was when the guerrilla forces captured a traitor in Sierra Maestra. Che was among those who advocated for the traitor's death, but the decision was Fidel's. Che volunteered as executioner when no one else did, because of his education as a doctor.
@founoe Guevara was the commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison in 1959. There have been reports of Guevara routinely executing many innocent imprisoned people there who opposed Castro. And this happened without any trial. During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, Guevara was furious that the Soviet missiles were never launched and said that if he had the control over the missiles, he would have launched them without hesitating, possibly killing thousands.
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
@founoe He is responsable for at least 144 summary executions between 1957 and 1959 (including on the acusation of atempt to desertion, homosexuality, stealling food).
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."
"“I feel my nostrils dilate, savoring the acrid smell of gun powder and blood, of the enemy's death"
"He is responsable for at least 144 summary executions between 1957 and 1959"
Like Jon Lee Anderson writes, there are no credible sources for this.
As La Cabaña's administrator it was his job to make the executions happen. But he didn't judge anyone himself, even though his opinion might have been that they should die and "judicial proof is unnecessary". And he certainly didn't execute prisoners personally.
@founoe The credible source for this statement is his diaries.He certainly DID excute several prisioners personally.
Just to give an example,here is the discription of his first execution,Eutimio Guerra, in Che Guevara diary:
""The situation was uncomfortable for the people and for him [Eutimio Guerra] so I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal".
He did execute several people.And he loved to do that.
@founoe "And he loved to do that' That is a statement way out of your knowledge and also a straw man"
Wasnt the quote that he liked the smell of blood self explanatory? Well, heres another one ("To be a young communist"): "I can imagine the pride of those compañeros who were manning an antiaircraft battery,for example,defending their homeland from Yankee planes.Suddenly,one of them is lucky enough to see his bullets hit an enemy plane.Clearly, that is the happiest moment of a man’s life"
"Wasnt the quote that he liked the smell of blood self explanatory?"
I'm a math kind of guy so I don't make assumptions about things I don't know. When he says: "Suddenly,one of them is lucky enough to see his bullets hit an enemy plane.Clearly, that is the happiest moment of a man’s life"
I read nothing more and nothing less. And I certainly don't read Guevara saying "I love to execute prisoners." When I read that.
@founoe "Like Jon Lee Anderson writes, there are no credible sources for this. "Actually, the writter defends that: "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an INNOCENT", showing his opinion that everyone that he executed were guilty (something really stupid to expect from SUMARY EXECUTIONS!).
"showing his opinion that everyone that he executed were guilty"
Try reading the rest of it:
"Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."
@founoe Che Guevara didnt defend summary executions only in times of war. He continued several years in Cuba and confessed an United Nations assembly in 1964 that in his country there was summary executions.
@founoe "He certainly didn't execute prisoners personally."22 hours ago,you said this.I showed evidence of 1 executed prisioner and you changed your position to"just one [execution]".Should not I suspect that you gonna simply change you opinions for "he murdered JUST 10 people?
Common, good ideas do not depend on naive idealization of their heros. Good changes in society can only be achieved by critical thought. Revolution depend on reason, not on adrenaline junkies.
"22 hours ago,you said this.I showed evidence of 1 executed prisioner"
You're quoting me out of context. What I said was that he didn't execute prisoners while he was the administrator of La Cabaña.
"he murdered JUST 10 people?"
I think I said that Che killed about 10 people, and I meant in his life, and those were soldiers in a war, and a traitor that the guerrilla forces captured. In a war.
@founoe You could also add that revolution is historically a risky affair. Certainly the United States is no stranger to killing "traitors", and as far as brutal moments, it's own revolution was no exception to the rule. Civilians were often executed for being "unaffected" (as in having taken no side), and Quakers were hung for being pacifists. Native settlements were attacked mercilessly on simple suspicion of aiding the Brits.
@founoe one or two? Try being made overseer of a military detention camp and overseeing the execution of thousands. Believe what you want about which side was right or wrong, but know what is real. Che was a hardline marxist that believed the young should live a life of hard study and never question their government, so long as it was communist
@founoe How many people have been oppressed by the tool he helped put in power? Or how many Cubans hate him? How many Americans love him? How many innocents did he kill? How many soldiers? How many just like him?
Revolution. A myth I'm afraid . . . remember what chairman Mao said?
"How many people have been oppressed by the tool he helped put in power?"
Are you saying Batista's regime was less oppressive? Cubans might not be well off compared to other countries, but they're WAY better off under Castro than under Batista.
"Or how many Cubans hate him?"
I don't know. Tell me. Do you also happen to know how many Cubans love him?
"There is no way of knowing how many people someone kills in a battle."
No, but you can make reasonable estimates. In Che Guevara's case it's closer to 10 than 20 and definitely not over 30.
"By "innocent", Jon Lee Anderson means unjustly executed, not civilian."
I think he means Eutimio Guerra since he was the only one Che actually executed. Who was tried for treason and sentenced by Fidel to death, the standard for all traitors. Hence, he was not "innocent".
@bushit123456 My questions were projected in a somewhat ironic sense. I meant that most of these "revolutionaries" embrace violence. It's war. As Mao said "The revolution is an act of violence".
@founoe Batista or Castro.....six of one, half a dozen of another, as they say. Two peas in a pod. One was as bad as the next. Both corrupt dictators.
Not even the 90% of Cuba's population that today enjoy a much higher standard of life than they did before Che Guevara was one of the main characters in Cuba's revolution?
@founoe And cubans today enjoy a much lower standard of life than every surrounding country as a result of the fascist dictatorship he helped found and then advertise as "freedom". He played a large part in giving credibility to an oppressive government bent on killing all self-expression and liberty in the name of "equality". If he stopped at just outing Baptista he would have remained a true Cuban hero. Instead cubans went from suffering under one dickhead to suffering under another.
"And cubans today enjoy a much lower standard of life than every surrounding country"
Indeed. I fail to see how this makes Che's efforts any less positive. This fact only shows that there is room for even more improvement, and those who makes that improvement will also have made a positive change. And hey, the nations that are considered the finest to live in, are they really fine or could they improve a whole lot too? Does possibility for improvement make them not fine?
@sadragne1 Well said, and that's exactly the point that I've tried to make on this wall that the Che Fan Club members can't grasp. However good his intentions may have been, Che was involved in the process of replacing one brutal dickhead dictator with another. He was consummately inept as a revolutionary for that reason and also in field tactics as well, which was demonstrated when he was quickly captured and executed when he tried the same shit in another country.
Che was a nut case, like many revolutionaries, from the American Revolution to the French Revolution, before and after. The guy didn't believe in judicial revue, nor habeas corpus. He helped fight against oligarchy but that doesn't make him a great guy. I think people get caught up in the romance of his exploits and the validity of his convictions, he spoke against aparteid, etc., and some how allow themselves to rationalize his more deviant desires and actions. Ah, well. Everyone needs a hero.
BARCACROSSESTHEALPS 1 day ago
@BARCACROSSESTHEALPS Well said....and as pointed out in a prior post, Che was an inept revolutionary who looked good in a beret. As to his primary accomplishment, which was to install the corrupt Castro regime in place of the corrupt Batista regime, that's nothing to brag about. But like you said, people need heroes so they take them where they can find them.
JackKangaroo1 7 hours ago
LOL @ these people arguing on behalf of Cuba OR the USA. Both are shitholes. Both have corrupt leaders. Both sets of populations need to rise up in revolution and overthrow their masters. Arguing who is the best country out of the 2, is like arguing who's turd is the least foul smelling. THEY'RE BOTH TURDS.
TheLyingTruthTeller 3 days ago
@TheLyingTruthTeller Any nation with a government is a turd. Hence, every nation is a turd. Therefore, unless you live on an island with syndicalism, you live in a "shit hole." ....Welcome to the neighborhood!
BARCACROSSESTHEALPS 1 day ago
@BARCACROSSESTHEALPS Let me guess, you're sixteen years old, right? and probably never had a job in your life. Didn't daddy let you borrow the Buick last night? Poor baby.....
JackKangaroo1 7 hours ago
@TheLyingTruthTeller And what shithole do you reside in? Just curious.....
JackKangaroo1 23 hours ago
@JackKangaroo1
I am an automated computer programme. I don't live in any turd hole. Thank you, and have a nice day.
TheLyingTruthTeller 18 hours ago
@TheLyingTruthTeller Oh well, if that's what you are you must know that you will become obsolete within the next six months and be replaced by another piece of reprogrammed software. In your next incarnation you may well become an aid to corporate attorneys looking to cut down on their employer's tax liabilities. Enjoy!!
JackKangaroo1 7 hours ago
Sorry. I stopped watching around Che, his charm and sexual dynamism. 20 sec..
driliveira 2 weeks ago
Communism sucks
yukoncornileus4 2 weeks ago
Che Guevara was a charismatic but inept revolutionary who took part in installing a corrupt dictator named Fidel Castro as ruler of Cuba. Aside from the fact that he was a flamboyant figure who looked good in a beret, why would anyone want to emulate him? Helping to create a Communist dictatorship on an island nation in the Caribbean is nothing to brag about.
JackKangaroo1 2 weeks ago 15
@JackKangaroo1
You sir, are an idiot.
sebnov 1 week ago
@sebnov And you are apparently a Che worshiper who fails to see that his legacy was to help install a brutally repressive Communist regime in Cuba. And you think that I'm the idiot? LOL
JackKangaroo1 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1
Don't you realise that he liberated Cuba from his opressors? Whatever Fidel has done to Cuba afterwards is not his fault, he was in Bolivia trying to help another country.
sebnov 1 week ago
@sebnov Sorry, but if you take an active part in installing a corrupt brutal dictator into power then you have to take some of the blame for what that dictator does afterward. All Che accomplished was to initiate the replacement of one dictatorship with another that was equally bad. It was like replacing Saddam Hussein with Moammar Ghadaffi and then claiming to have "liberated" the people. Who's kidding who?
JackKangaroo1 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1 no-but-deposing-a-brutal-dictator-with-a-brutal-police-force-and-army-supported-by-american-gangsters-not-so-bad-for-a-days-work
paul1x1 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1 You have to understand Cuba is a third world country! Its was a rich country with a good oil supply at one point however america drained it. Fidel has made sure no citizen falls under the poverty line, gave the land back to the people, reduced taxation, created a stronger sugar production, freed the people from american imperialism, makes sure every child from the age of 1 has a full education and is not have to work until they have finished education.
TheBroadribb 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1 Cuba has the best doctor to civilian ratio than any other country. Has many teachers in the education system. Now why is the country suffering? The bay of pigs destroy 80% of agriculture in Cuba, destroyed many building, raised the spending on militarisation, created an isolated country in which cannot trade with other countries freely. America have banned any america citizen from spending money in Cuba.
TheBroadribb 1 week ago
@TheBroadribb Best doctor to civilian ratio, yet none of the doctors practice up to date medicine because they are paid what a dirt vendor is paid. Medicine in Cuba is third world at the very best & 18th century at worst. Che & Castro destroyed cuba with little to no help of any outside country. They can trade with almost every other country in the world yet they are still a backwater shithole.
SippinonMickeys 6 days ago
@SippinonMickeys Ha ignorance... Cuban civilians are healthier than american civilians... Fact... You are a failure at demonizing Castro. ahaha
TheBroadribb 4 days ago
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TheBroadribb 1 week ago
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TheBroadribb 1 week ago
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@JackKangaroo1 America have taken 750 billion dollars from the already poor country in the embargo. The reason Cuba cannot have a fully functioning electoral system as it would put Cuban independence and success at risk. JFK called him a dictator and a threat to national security, wasn't JFK the one ordered the invasion of south Vietnam which lead to the destruction of over 80% of agriculture and over 2 million Vietnamese murdered in which also spread to Indochina.
TheBroadribb 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1 Actually, the american embargo and america's anti-cuba, anti fidel castro, anti-communist policy is what led cuba to becoming a dictatorship.
Guess who was cuba's dictator before castro? USA.
All of america's worst criminals, fascists, gamblers, drug dealers and prostitutes were sent to cuba. Cuba was usa's trash can.
USA couldn't accept an independent communist cuba, so they tried to overthrow castro by sabotage, boycottage and by starting extensive propaganda in the US.
riqyl32 1 week ago
@JackKangaroo1 you need to learn a little more about him. and cuba.
lawndog6794 6 days ago
@lawndog6794 What, you mean like that Cuba is a Third World country and has been since the day Castro took over half a century ago? And that Che Guevarra helped bring this about? That's all I need to know about it.
JackKangaroo1 23 hours ago
@JackKangaroo1
The American talking about "corrupt" leaders of OTHER states .
The sheer irony.
shurednichso 6 days ago
@shurednichso Sure we have corruption here but we also have a means of cleaning it up. Senators, Congressmen, and several former governors of states have gone to prison for corruption. Castro has been a crook for more than half a century and he's never done a day in jail. That says it all.
JackKangaroo1 23 hours ago
@JackKangaroo1
Thats why nearly every single congressman gets massively sponsored by big corporations , the middleclass is vanishing and the richest people become richer.
Your typical "evil commi" lying propaganda becomes boring.
shurednichso 9 hours ago
@JackKangaroo1 hear hear
faustus999 5 days ago
@JackKangaroo1 You clearly don't know about the corrupt regime that Castro overthrew. Batista was installed by America to keep their interests happy whilst he ruined Cuba and the mafia ran riot. Castro fought to change this corrupt regime and anyone who helped him should be proud of their achievements. You may believe that communism is the ultimate evil because of the right wing propaganda you're force fed in America but you must see how Castro changed Cuba for the better.
j913uk 2 days ago
@JackKangaroo1 Oh dude/dudette, you are so uninformed. Watch a documentary about Che here on youtube. He was one of the most honest, most brave people we have had in history in our whole human race. He is a symbol of standing up for your rights.
ididete 2 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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awhitesoul2012 3 weeks ago
Thank you for posting this, giacccccomo.
writersblock26 3 weeks ago
really founoe ? ..ol Che hung out with the "masses " on weekends ...doing pick and shovel work like a regular guy ? ..indeed ,from what Ive read just from several different accounts ,ol Che woulda had to work a decade wortha sundays just to dig enough graves for all the hapless cubans that he shot PERSONALLY ,by his own hand . ..of course others say that Che himself only killed a dozen or so people and merely ordered the death of hundreds of others .
woodenmajor 1 month ago
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@woodenmajor
Seriously, you can't make a statement like this:
"..cubans that he shot PERSONALLY ,by his own hand ."
And then go on to make a statement like this:
"..of course others say that Che himself only killed a dozen or so people and merely ordered the death of hundreds of others ."
It's kind of a big difference.
But yes, Che killed about 10 or so soldiers in the revolutionary war. After the war he was the administrator of a facility where criminals were executed.
founoe 1 month ago
founoe...what ? ..Che Guevara was a bank director ?and a PRISON WARDEN ? ..the Che ? that fiery revolutionary we see on the Tee shirt ? lol ...he was f#king bank clerk and a "screw " ? ..a damned prison guard ?...did he also sell auto and life insurance on the side ?
woodenmajor 1 month ago
@woodenmajor
Yes, that's what he worked as for the 10 years or so he stayed in Cuba after the revolution.
On Sundays he also helped at various work sites doing manual labor.
founoe 1 month ago
Che was a Marxist revolutionary ,so ..by his definition ,anyone he shot ,or had shot ,was guilty of some crime ..by default .we know that Che was wonderful because many,many thousands of Cubans have perished in tiny rafts trying flee his "workers paradise " and reach the shores of the "oppressive imperialists " he so hated .
woodenmajor 1 month ago
@woodenmajor
Che pretty much just worked as a prison warden and a bank director. Other than being friends with Fidel, he had very little influence over political decisions made by the Cuban government.
founoe 1 month ago
If you speak spanish: watch?v=v1-Ani0gyI4
bushit123456 1 month ago
@theworldfaroff your point being?
0TheGuru0 1 month ago
At 0:23 there is a flash of another man why?
sufianansari7 1 month ago
@sufianansari7 the interviewer probably.
ZenShroud1 1 month ago
@ZenShroud1 probably
sufianansari7 1 month ago
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Wikipedia: Hitchens has written of his homosexual experiences when in boarding school in his memoir, "Hitch-22." These experiences continued in his college years when he allegedly had relationships with two men who eventually became a part of the Thatcher government.
TheWorldFarOff 1 month ago
Socialists are boring. After all of their murder and genocide, the boredom that they invoke and provoke is their greatest crime.
genldoz 1 month ago
@genldoz Boredom? A life of peace is boredom?
superclaydude 1 month ago
@superclaydude Socialism= "a life of peace"? My friend, NO political philosophy can guarantee peace or prosperity. Utopia is a pipe dream. Political ideology is not the problem, the human condition is the problem. Cheers.
Composer19691 1 month ago
@Composer19691 spot on
lejambon08 1 month ago
lets not even get into how many people the USA government has killed, how many wars we've funded in favor of our interests, the racism in our country, AND WE HAVE THE BALLS TO POINT FINGERS AT OTHERS? GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE
roger8654 1 month ago
long live che guevara, he was and cared about other nations that were oppressed by imperialists like the united states and others
roger8654 1 month ago
Guevara was a racist murderer.
JimBowie1133 1 month ago
@JimBowie1133 Where is your evidence that he was racist in any way? As for being a "murderer," he was a guerilla and fought wars, and people get killed in war. Now, if he was killing civilian women and children, that would be a different matter, but if shooting an armed enemy in combat is murder, then all soldiers are murderers.
yerk3 1 month ago
@yerk3 Of course they are
boothesquirrel 1 month ago
1:59 irish jersey in China
akerno 1 month ago
I love the idea that what people will remember Che Guevara for is being the guy on the T-shirt. His legacy will be that his face has been used as a marketing tool, something he would have hated.
happymyst 1 month ago 38
@happymyst
Oh yeah, the murderer in favour of a totalitarian socialist regime wouldn't have been in favour of his face being used for propaganda. I think you can agree that from that perspective your comment is absurd. Only in that we aren't compelled to buy into the social organisation and plans for how to create product of Guevara t-shirt producers would that scumbag have been against marketing for trade for his wares, he'd have told us that only 'society' and him can run capital
cannotbebothered100 1 month ago
@happymyst His image is marketed as representative symbology for a movement of courageous people who stand up against fascism, oppression, violence and greed. It is no wonder that those who need a violent unjust world to support their rapacious greed and overwhelming ignorance, have now been able to 'make a buck' out of his image and death. Fascists always profit from death somehow. Consider the Italian Royal Family (Savoy) now some of the richest on earth comfortable in Switzerland.
SmileyGarrish 1 month ago
@happymyst I think to say that someone like Che will be remembered as a "marketing tool" simply because he sells a lot of merchandise is rather nonsensical. I think most people who purchase his image are either doing so because they know at least a little bit about him, or will soon know, because someone else will tell them. That's not a notion that requires you believe in who he was or what he stood for, just a simple recognition that his story is larger than life.
GoodManBadSerf 1 month ago
@happymyst idiots know him as the guy on the t-shirt. other people know him already or find out who he is (maybe due to the t-shirt) and become aware of him and what he stood for. i think he would have enjoyed the irony of that. he was a cool guy
lawndog6794 2 weeks ago 3
@lawndog6794 Che Guevara the man who did so much (little?) to destroy capitalism is now one of the quintessential capitalists because of his facade, not his message.
Che was a murderer, yes murderer, and became an outright psychopath. He tried to instill his own type of Sharia Law after being a mass murderer @ during the revolution & La Cabaña prison. Concentration camps, G-2, G-6, rounding up of the unfit (minorities, sick, religious), sovietization, etc... yep 'cool' dude. LOL
SippinonMickeys 6 days ago
@happymyst why do you love that idea? its horrible
but at least it makes people ask who he is and what he did, even if the response too often is "DURR HE A TERRORIST MURDERER"
yngvaibucketrucci 2 weeks ago
I really couldn't take serious hitchens' moralizing over the religious after hearing him at the same later part of his life calling for genocide in North Korea, Iran, Iraq and Pakistan. Disgusting man. A total fascist, in one of the most real and totalitarian applications of the term.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@TheGodlessGuitarist Way to slay the sacred cow.
onefodderunit 1 month ago
@onefodderunit I know something about ethics. Hitchens was an elitist and couldnt think beyond it despite parading as an intellectual. He was a knowledgeable man, but also a narcissist and thus he had serious intellectual boundaries that he couldnt see no matter how much he read.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@TheGodlessGuitarist ...when did he call for such things?
phezla 1 month ago
@phezla not too long back. Between GWB and Obama. It's on a video here on Youtube, Hitchens saying the US should attack Iran and North Korea. Saw/heard it with my own eyes and ears. Not sure which vid, sorry. It's been a while since I stopped paying attention to Hitchens. He was just not a very ethical man, I'm sad to say, as for a long time he was my hero.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@TheGodlessGuitarist i don't see what that would be like calling for genocide. i'm sure he never supported any action to harm the people, let alone get rid of them (which is what genocide is about). that he was not against military intervention in countries led by dangerous fanatic nutcases with atomic weapons and apocalyptic phantasies wouldn't surprise me though.
phezla 1 month ago
@phezla "i don't see what that would be like calling for genocide."
Most people are like you in that respect, however, like me, Hitchens knows about Western imperialism and that 'humanitarian/security interventions' are nothing more than attrocities largely against innocent people. More than a 1m dead to date in Iraq. Do you think that's an accident? Or, is it an accident that the news Western media largely reports only military casualities and not those of the civilians they murder?
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@phezla The only nation to have used nuclear weapons is the US and they used them on civilians. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are without doubt the single most vile acts of terrorism in the history of the human race.
Like I said, you need to start think about your own crimes before you start waving your finger around.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@phezla If you are interested in familiarising yourself with the crimes of the West and how it happens without the knowledge of the homeland general populations, then I would recommend you start listening to scholars and journalists who are deliberaltely excluded from mainstream media for the most part. Examples include Naomi Klien, Paul Jay, Robert Fisk, Norman Finkelstein, Chris Hedges, John Pilger, Julian Assange, Noam Chomsky. Docus on YT: "Manufacturing Consent", "PsyWar"
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@phezla "i'm sure he never supported any action to harm the people"
That is simply not true. Hitchens know what goes on in these so called 'interventions'. They are nothing more than manufactured wars in the name of Western profits.
Iran hasnt attacked another nation in over 200 years, except under the Shah who was a brutal dictator installed by the US/UK for the purposes of controlling Iranian oil.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@phezla as for 'dabgerous fanatic nutcases with atomic weapons', that describes every nuclear state. And for 'apocalyptic phantasies', that is just Western propaganda. Folks like Ahmedinehjad are indeed vile authoritarians, and a threat to their own populations they doubtlessly are, but they are nothing like as extreme as NATO for instance.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@89Czeko of course capitalist countries kills people. the first Gulf War was a good example of Blood for Oil. Bush senior and Bush junior were both idiots. Reagan too, he helped talibans against the soviets. See? We the capitalists do not WORSHIP MEN, the cult of personality is 100% socialist, cuz leftists are blind followers, fanatics like you. You are not a human, you are a robot, a soviet soldier, you obey orders from the Central Commitee
trifulquita15 1 month ago
@trifulquita15
You think preventing the inevitable annexation of Kuwait translates to "blood for oil"? Seriously? Also, Pinochet was the object of a cult of personality in Chile, yet he was capitalist.
Fraietor 1 month ago
Che was just a douche.
belegulo 1 month ago
test
trifulquita15 1 month ago
El Che a hero against authoritarian regimes? bloody lie. He called Stalin "dad".
El Che = young Pol Pot
trifulquita15 2 months ago
@trifulquita15 At the time the U.S supported dictators that were just as bad if not worst than Stalin throughout South America. throughout the cold war the U.S side proved to be much bloodier and dirtier than the Soviet side although both had their share of innocent blood. Pinochet rings a bell?
luciferiexcelsil 2 months ago
@luciferiexcelsil not only dictators in latin america, but talibans too. The US gov. is stupid everybody knows that, but doesnt mean commies were better. I prefer stupids in a capitalist democracy, because communists kills millions of their people
trifulquita15 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 "I prefer stupids in a capitalist democracy, because communists kills millions of their people" Really? I mentioned Augusto Pinochet, I think that'd be enough to show that these "capitalist democracies" were not only just as bloody, but greatly hypocritical.
luciferiexcelsil 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 You may ask, "why hasn't it happened in the U.S?" oh it has, many who opposed the U.S government suddenly 'disappeared' during the 50's, 60's & 70's. A thing I'll give to these 'democratic' capitalists you seem to praise as the lesser evil, they're much quieter on getting rid of the opposition.
luciferiexcelsil 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 Che called Stalin "dad" in a time in his life when he was surrounded by Stalinist communists and short after Stalin's death, but as time went by he took a strong stance against everything to do with the Soviet Union. Openly declaring himself against the Soviet model and against Soviet imperialism as much as he opposed American imperialism. If you tried to use that as a way to make him look bad you undeniably failed.
CHErevolucionDJC 1 month ago
@CHErevolucionDJC After MILLIONS OF DEADS i can't believe communists and nazis are still among us. If some ideology kills 80 people i would be shocked. Nazis and communists have no morals, no emphaty, no remorse. Che Guevara was planning to destroy THE ENTIRE WORLD with the soviet missiles in Cuba. Thank God the Soviet said: MAYBE DESTROYING THE WORLD IS NOT GOOD FOR COMMUNISM and the USSR removed the missiles. And guess what... Che Guevara was angry with the soviets
trifulquita15 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 And I'm surprised you didn't use the so commonly quoted misunderstood quote. Che wanted to destroy the world? really? Che's plans, just like the plans of Fidel and Cuba were to keep the Soviet missiles within their borders as a defense strategy, in order to make the US think twice before trying to invade them. The U.S. had already tried the Bay of pigs, Cuba felt it was only a matter of time before a full scale invasion.
CHErevolucionDJC 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 and you know what they weren't wrong in their assumptions.
This were some solution the U.S. came up in the time of the crisis:
1. No action.
2. Diplomacy:
3. Warning:
4. Blockade:
5. Air strike:
6. Invasion: Full force invasion of Cuba and overthrow of Castro.
And the US Joint Chiefs of Staff had agreed that an Invasion was the only solution. Had Kennedy not said other wise then Cuba's warning would have become true.
CHErevolucionDJC 1 month ago
@CHErevolucionDJC Castro even said "If Cuba will be destroyed so be it". Any justification for using those missiles are futile. "USA could invade us so lets bring soviet missiles and lets start a nuclear war". Only a mentally ill leaders like Castro and Che could think that way. Krushev said "wait if we destroy the world, no more USSR, no more communism, no more vodka and hot russian girls". That's why Kennedy and Krushev made the agreement... Castro and Guevara said: "traitor!!! mother f%%@!!
trifulquita15 1 month ago
@trifulquita15 "Cuba is on the alert, distinguished delegates, because she knows that imperialism would perish enveloped in flames, but that Cuba would also suffer in its own flesh the price of imperialism's defeat, and she hopes that it can be accomplished by other means. Cuba hopes that her children will see a better future, and that victory will not have to be won at the cost of millions of human lives destroyed by the atomic bomb." Che, Punta del Este Uruguay.
CHErevolucionDJC 1 month ago
It's never a good thing to get lost in one's act. It was hard not to like Hitchens even though he seemed as trapped in his persona as Hunter Thompson was in his. May he rest in peace.
lpadron13 2 months ago
Well yes, hitchens wrote of his escapades from his youth in his new book, plus the news article of his death stated..."he died with "close" friends around" totally forgetting to mention any of his family, wife,children, siblings etc.. as they usually do.
And of course your right again ..the bible did cause the beast to raise it's ugly head!
914light 2 months ago
@914light Look for atheism in the dictionary, it's not a beast, it's the lack of belief in a deity, religions and gods have killed more people than beasts look that. Also atheists die more without family members? Atheism is faith? the bible created atheism movements? the best countries in the world are atheists: Hitchens was known for discussing and winning. He had an agenda in pushing the criminal foreign policy of Bush, that was his bad.
crazy3d 2 months ago
@crazy3d ..are you old enough to be on the computer ?
914light 2 months ago
@914light ouch, you are so good at sarcasm
crazy3d 2 months ago
@crazy3d
Atheist communisim wins the gold medal for the millions starved or slaughtered over the last century. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, need I say more. Secular countries are the best in the world, no doubt about that. But these places are secular no more thanks to multiculturalism. Hitchens detested the islamification of erstwhile secular and liberal European utopias. George Bush is no longer an issue. islam also has an agenda. And it is profoundly anti-atheist.
237KMT 2 months ago
@237KMT Communists didn't do bad things because the didn't have religion, the did it because they were collectivists and the communists states had a cult toward state and leaders. Atheism is not a political ideology, they were atheists but that has nothing to do, they were against religion because they wanted to control the individual or the masses completelly.
crazy3d 2 months ago
@237KMT There was never such thing as atheist communism... People like Mao & Stalin transformed Communism into the worship of personality and the power of the oligarchy. Communist authors like Marx, Engels and others actually were deists or pantheists, just like the great amount of the enlightenment philosophers. Atheism as the concept we hold today is relatively new.
luciferiexcelsil 2 months ago
/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j-vI7xsUUgs For those who understand spanish or read in portuguese.
jefersontorres 2 months ago
hitchens was a racist, warped, bigot drunken buffoon, who was probably the reincarnation of that freak Aleister Crowley..the world is definitely better off
914light 2 months ago
@914light That,s a bit harsh . Hardly an Aleister Crowley . Hitch was a bit of a rarity in the new atheist movement . A rarity in that he was an atheist that held strong conservative views .
Most atheists I,ve met are a boring bunch of left wing liberal wankers that would sell their soul to the devil .
LuluRosenkrantz 2 months ago
@LuluRosenkrantz
So true about atheists ..but what I,ve seem / read of this hitchens..his agenda was racist and sinister with a generic way of delivering it. I find nothing rare about him. He was a practicing bisexual, a liar, a drunk, a zionist and total RACIST who slanted the bible or the news to fit his agenda, I guess that's consider a conservative. But he was a racist 1st and foremost, while using buffoonish childish ploys to shove the "truth" down peoples throat....
914light 2 months ago
@914light What atheist doesn,t use the bible as the foundation of their faith . The bible is priority reading for every atheist . In fact if the bible did not exist I doubt atheism would be a phenominon .
I didn't know Hitch was a bisexual .
LuluRosenkrantz 2 months ago
@LuluRosenkrantz well he is british
TheDravidianwolf 2 months ago
Hitch was an arrogant, obnoxious, self promoting man whose opinions were dangerous and broadly anti-intellectual, yet irrespective of this I can't help but feel the world is not as fun without him.
locarno25 2 months ago
About time this phoney Che Guevare was bought to account . As far as I know he was born into wealth in Argentina . Furthermore Castro thought him a no hoping bum who was glad to see the last of him .
Thank heavens no photographer ever got lucky with Bin Laden . Next thing every drone and his monkey would be wearing Bin Laden T shirts .
LuluRosenkrantz 2 months ago
How many innocent people did Che Guevare murder in cold blood ?
LuluRosenkrantz 2 months ago 2
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rey777777 2 months ago
@LuluRosenkrantz I'll presume you are participating in some sort of financially powered society in which you participate and benefit from, which means you are also responsible for its crimes. How about thinking in terms of what you are responsible for, which I can promise you is a great deal worse than anything Che Guevara did or didnt do.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@TheGodlessGuitarist Che was from the affluent middle class . Che cared nothing for the proletariat but used them as usefull idiots to further his own selfish life style . Che could best be described as a latter day Talibani . An AK47 in one hand and a Quran in the other . In Che,s case ,a US made SLR and a copy of Mao,s little red book . Both are failures . No hoping bums that contribute nothing to humanity .
LuluRosenkrantz 1 month ago
@LuluRosenkrantz Do you participate in the society of the country you live in? I suscribe to the principle that if you participate in a society and benefit from it then you are also responsible for its crimes. If you live in the US, UK, Israel, France, Italy, (NATO) then you should have the far more serious crimes on your own nation on your conscience. Che Guevara was a heroic humanitarian compared to most people in the West.
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@LuluRosenkrantz SO you might want to consider what you are contributing to humanity and point your finger a little closer to home since Guevara was instrumental in freeing the Cuban people from US aggression and land grabbing. Guevara protected the peasant farmers from US sponsored terrorism and outright US terrorism by making alliances with the communist and socialist movements and finally the leadership. So, tell me, what have you done lately?
TheGodlessGuitarist 1 month ago
@TheGodlessGuitarist Che Guevara was a no hoping bum whos only claim to fame was a famous portrait . Castro tried giving him a place in his cabinet but soon realised Che didn,t have a brain in his head . In fact Castro was glad to see the last of him . Do you people ever think about the Chinese destruction Tibein culture ?The persecution of Coptic christians in Egypt ? What about the religious bigotry in Saudi Arabia ? Ethnic violence in Rwanda , Sudan or Nigeria ?
LuluRosenkrantz 1 month ago
@LuluRosenkrantz
"How many innocent people did Che Guevare murder in cold blood ?"
No one in cold blood from what I gather.
He fought in wars, so I guess he killed some people there. And he might have condemned one or two do death for treason during the wars.
How many peoples lives were saved from oppressive imperialists by the efforts of Che Guevara?
founoe 1 month ago 7
@founoe
well it sounds all good. however his goals were completely different from what you claim here. he was a selfish bandit and a stupid one - i my say. stupidity and overreach was the reason he died, not heroism or some high humanistic political goals.
skaloon 1 month ago
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@skaloon
Part 1
"however his goals were completely different from what you claim here"
I'm not claiming anything at all about Che Guevara's goals here.
"he was a selfish bandit and a stupid one"
Quite the opposite. He was very strict on soldiers who stole during the wars. And he famously said to a soldier who had taken a car that "it doesn't matter if that car belongs to Batista himself, you drive back and park that car where you found it."
cont.
founoe 1 month ago
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@skaloon
Part 2
"stupidity and overreach was the reason he died"
Most of the people involved agree that Che was betrayed to death. I can go into this more if you really want to.
"not heroism"
Maybe it was the manner of his death that made him a hero. He was murdered after all.
"high humanistic"
He fought oppressive imperialist capitalists, what better way could you possibly die?
"political goals"
By becoming a martyr he accomplished way more than he could have hoped to do in life.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe Guevara killed himself and cold bloodely thousands of innocent people. He once killed a 16 year old boy with a shot in the forehead. Please read more about Guevara before commenting.
camilocuesta 1 month ago
@camilocuesta
"Please read more about Guevara before commenting."
I thought two books at a thousand pages together was quite a lot actually. (can you say that you've read more about him than me?)
The books focused on important events of his life so I would think that murdering thousands would be in there somewhere, but it's not.
When exactly did these alleged murders occur according to you? Because I don't think he killed more than 10. Soldiers. In a war.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe I've read eight books, both in english and spanish. In 1959 alone are 180 registered deaths by the hand of Guevara. He once killed a boy for writing on the wall. Just google "che firing squads".
“If any person has a good word for the previous government that is good enough for me to have him shot.” - Che
camilocuesta 1 month ago
@camilocuesta
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
-Jon lee Anderson
founoe 1 month ago
Hey man he executed people in cold blood in front of tv crews after they felled batista, you need to read up.
qawsedrftgyh1234123 1 month ago
@qawsedrftgyh1234123
Che Guevara's role as administrator of La Cabaña was to warden prisoners and produce witnesses for the trials of previous government officials.
The only time Che actually executed someone himself was when the guerrilla forces captured a traitor in Sierra Maestra. Che was among those who advocated for the traitor's death, but the decision was Fidel's. Che volunteered as executioner when no one else did, because of his education as a doctor.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe Guevara was the commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison in 1959. There have been reports of Guevara routinely executing many innocent imprisoned people there who opposed Castro. And this happened without any trial. During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, Guevara was furious that the Soviet missiles were never launched and said that if he had the control over the missiles, he would have launched them without hesitating, possibly killing thousands.
Sure... sounds like a hero to me.
MyIQis0 1 month ago
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@MyIQis0
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
-Jon lee Anderson
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe He is responsable for at least 144 summary executions between 1957 and 1959 (including on the acusation of atempt to desertion, homosexuality, stealling food).
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."
"“I feel my nostrils dilate, savoring the acrid smell of gun powder and blood, of the enemy's death"
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
"He is responsable for at least 144 summary executions between 1957 and 1959"
Like Jon Lee Anderson writes, there are no credible sources for this.
As La Cabaña's administrator it was his job to make the executions happen. But he didn't judge anyone himself, even though his opinion might have been that they should die and "judicial proof is unnecessary". And he certainly didn't execute prisoners personally.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe The credible source for this statement is his diaries.He certainly DID excute several prisioners personally.
Just to give an example,here is the discription of his first execution,Eutimio Guerra, in Che Guevara diary:
""The situation was uncomfortable for the people and for him [Eutimio Guerra] so I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal".
He did execute several people.And he loved to do that.
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
"He certainly DID excute several prisioners personally."
No, just one.
"[Eutimio Guerra]"
Yes, that's the one.
"He did execute several people."
Then give more than one example from his diary. I double dare you.
"And he loved to do that."
That is a statement way out of your knowledge and also a straw man.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe "And he loved to do that' That is a statement way out of your knowledge and also a straw man"
Wasnt the quote that he liked the smell of blood self explanatory? Well, heres another one ("To be a young communist"): "I can imagine the pride of those compañeros who were manning an antiaircraft battery,for example,defending their homeland from Yankee planes.Suddenly,one of them is lucky enough to see his bullets hit an enemy plane.Clearly, that is the happiest moment of a man’s life"
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
"Wasnt the quote that he liked the smell of blood self explanatory?"
I'm a math kind of guy so I don't make assumptions about things I don't know. When he says: "Suddenly,one of them is lucky enough to see his bullets hit an enemy plane.Clearly, that is the happiest moment of a man’s life"
I read nothing more and nothing less. And I certainly don't read Guevara saying "I love to execute prisoners." When I read that.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe "Like Jon Lee Anderson writes, there are no credible sources for this. "Actually, the writter defends that: "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an INNOCENT", showing his opinion that everyone that he executed were guilty (something really stupid to expect from SUMARY EXECUTIONS!).
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
"showing his opinion that everyone that he executed were guilty"
Try reading the rest of it:
"Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe Che Guevara didnt defend summary executions only in times of war. He continued several years in Cuba and confessed an United Nations assembly in 1964 that in his country there was summary executions.
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
Yes, I believe he did.
founoe 1 month ago
@bushit123456 I got news for ya....they happen right here in the good ole United States of America buddy.
davehutchinson67 1 month ago
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@davehutchinson67 "I got news for ya....they happen right here in the good ole United States of America buddy."
What are you refering to? Summary executions?
bushit123456 1 month ago
@founoe "He certainly didn't execute prisoners personally."22 hours ago,you said this.I showed evidence of 1 executed prisioner and you changed your position to"just one [execution]".Should not I suspect that you gonna simply change you opinions for "he murdered JUST 10 people?
Common, good ideas do not depend on naive idealization of their heros. Good changes in society can only be achieved by critical thought. Revolution depend on reason, not on adrenaline junkies.
bushit123456 1 month ago
@bushit123456
"22 hours ago,you said this.I showed evidence of 1 executed prisioner"
You're quoting me out of context. What I said was that he didn't execute prisoners while he was the administrator of La Cabaña.
"he murdered JUST 10 people?"
I think I said that Che killed about 10 people, and I meant in his life, and those were soldiers in a war, and a traitor that the guerrilla forces captured. In a war.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe "Che volunteered as executioner when no one else did, because of his education as a doctor."
Ugh. Also, you've been given examples with references and actual quotes from the man's diary, so now it's "I double-dare you!"
aresres 1 month ago
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@aresres
"Ugh. Also, you've been given examples with references and actual quotes from the man's diary, so now it's "I double-dare you!""
I don't understand what you want.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe You could also add that revolution is historically a risky affair. Certainly the United States is no stranger to killing "traitors", and as far as brutal moments, it's own revolution was no exception to the rule. Civilians were often executed for being "unaffected" (as in having taken no side), and Quakers were hung for being pacifists. Native settlements were attacked mercilessly on simple suspicion of aiding the Brits.
GoodManBadSerf 1 month ago
@GoodManBadSerf
I suspected as much. Sadly I have not yet had the time to study the details of the American revolution.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe one or two? Try being made overseer of a military detention camp and overseeing the execution of thousands. Believe what you want about which side was right or wrong, but know what is real. Che was a hardline marxist that believed the young should live a life of hard study and never question their government, so long as it was communist
Feenger1 1 month ago
@Feenger1
"one or two?"
We've had a healthy discussion about this in the comment section. I suggest you read it.
"Try being made overseer of a military detention camp"
That Che was administrator at La Cabaña is a secret to no one.
"execution of thousands"
No. While Che was administrator there was between 55 to 164 executions. That this number would be in the thousands is preposterous.
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe How many people have been oppressed by the tool he helped put in power? Or how many Cubans hate him? How many Americans love him? How many innocents did he kill? How many soldiers? How many just like him?
Revolution. A myth I'm afraid . . . remember what chairman Mao said?
NeverAloneForever 1 month ago
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@NeverAloneForever
Part1
"How many people have been oppressed by the tool he helped put in power?"
Are you saying Batista's regime was less oppressive? Cubans might not be well off compared to other countries, but they're WAY better off under Castro than under Batista.
"Or how many Cubans hate him?"
I don't know. Tell me. Do you also happen to know how many Cubans love him?
cont.
founoe 1 month ago
@NeverAloneForever
Part2
"How many innocents did he kill?"
Like Jon Lee Anderson writes "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'."
"How many soldiers?"
Personally? 10 or so. Why?
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe Execution is not the same thing then killing in battle. There is no way of knowing how many people someone kills in a battle.
By "innocent", Jon Lee Anderson means unjustly executed, not civilian.
bushit123456 1 month ago
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@bushit123456
"There is no way of knowing how many people someone kills in a battle."
No, but you can make reasonable estimates. In Che Guevara's case it's closer to 10 than 20 and definitely not over 30.
"By "innocent", Jon Lee Anderson means unjustly executed, not civilian."
I think he means Eutimio Guerra since he was the only one Che actually executed. Who was tried for treason and sentenced by Fidel to death, the standard for all traitors. Hence, he was not "innocent".
founoe 1 month ago
@bushit123456 My questions were projected in a somewhat ironic sense. I meant that most of these "revolutionaries" embrace violence. It's war. As Mao said "The revolution is an act of violence".
NeverAloneForever 1 month ago
@founoe he was a fan of personally executing those whom he considered his enemies. Tell me what country has he helped save?
lololololol47 1 month ago
@lololololol47
"executing those whom he considered his enemies"
Yes.
"he was a fan of personally"
No.
"Tell me what country has he helped save?"
Cuba. From Batista.
Do you realize how much better off Cubans are now than back then?
founoe 1 month ago
@founoe Batista or Castro.....six of one, half a dozen of another, as they say. Two peas in a pod. One was as bad as the next. Both corrupt dictators.
JackKangaroo1 2 weeks ago
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@JackKangaroo1
"Batista or Castro.....six of one, half a dozen of another, as they say. Two peas in a pod. One was as bad as the next. Both corrupt dictators."
No, actually. The living standard on Cuba was raised significantly when Castro overthrew Batista.
Could the living standard on Cuba be raised a whole lot more? Yes, without a doubt.
But despite the fact that both dictators are 'bad' does not put them on the same level.
founoe 2 weeks ago
@founoe none
sadragne1 4 weeks ago
@sadragne1
Not even the 90% of Cuba's population that today enjoy a much higher standard of life than they did before Che Guevara was one of the main characters in Cuba's revolution?
founoe 4 weeks ago
@founoe And cubans today enjoy a much lower standard of life than every surrounding country as a result of the fascist dictatorship he helped found and then advertise as "freedom". He played a large part in giving credibility to an oppressive government bent on killing all self-expression and liberty in the name of "equality". If he stopped at just outing Baptista he would have remained a true Cuban hero. Instead cubans went from suffering under one dickhead to suffering under another.
sadragne1 4 weeks ago
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@sadragne1
"And cubans today enjoy a much lower standard of life than every surrounding country"
Indeed. I fail to see how this makes Che's efforts any less positive. This fact only shows that there is room for even more improvement, and those who makes that improvement will also have made a positive change. And hey, the nations that are considered the finest to live in, are they really fine or could they improve a whole lot too? Does possibility for improvement make them not fine?
founoe 4 weeks ago
@sadragne1 Well said, and that's exactly the point that I've tried to make on this wall that the Che Fan Club members can't grasp. However good his intentions may have been, Che was involved in the process of replacing one brutal dickhead dictator with another. He was consummately inept as a revolutionary for that reason and also in field tactics as well, which was demonstrated when he was quickly captured and executed when he tried the same shit in another country.
JackKangaroo1 1 week ago
Che Guevara will always be a symbol of rebellious sheep. Rebels without a cause who are nonetheless eager to congregate.
eggory 2 months ago
To 432ps1 if you want to see 'hero worship' either go to a church.mosque, or look at North Korea. That WILL make you vomit!!
rossini55 2 months ago