God knows before the creation that he would create X knowing in advance X would not worship specifically him and ultimately be sent to hell (Before he was created So what is even the point?
in order to feel fullfilled in life we must overcome some problem... in order to get creative we must find a problem to resolve...
ok then basically if god makes a "happy" world the people inside this world would be unhappy... or less intelligent.... or boring.....and if they are allways happy ....(they dont know suffering) then how did they know they are happy in the first place? they would ask themselfs....why did god make this world? and we start again....
@fabioxperuggia "how culd they be happy in the first place" simple. by being happy. if god is allpowerfull he can make eating candy everlasting joy that never gets old. same thing with this. god culd make humans happy without any evil. that what omnipitant means. in the end, if god exists, that god is flawed. but mostliekly, he does not.
ok here is an idea... (i dont belive in god btw) god is not evil for not helping humans to live... if he helped us out then (without problems) humans would be stupid creatures without meaning.... so he introduce problems and conflict to us... then we get ideas...motivation...reason to live...and we "become" "perfect" (or at least more usefull and happy)... of course some ppl will have a hard and ugly time... but thats life... if we all were without problems..... we woudnt be happy...
@fabioxperuggia "god is not evil for not helping humans to live"
I'm not talking about god helping us to live, rather the design he came up with to begin with.
If he's all powerful, and can create anything, then the question becomes, why would god need humans to have problems, in order for them to not be stupid.
You're running off of how humans are, and treating those as if they are absolute laws of some higher reality.
In fact humans are based on this reality, thus your standard is flawed.
@TheReasonWhyGuy no u are getting it wrong.... im just justifying why a posible "god" would make "this" world... look... anything that a "god" would create and give it "intelligence" then at one moment no matter in wich world that creature its living, he will ask himself about existence and meaning of life... so if I am god and created this world... a world at its origings "good" and give people "feee will" then by that standart I cannot take part in the lives of the people of the world...
@fabioxperuggia "he will ask himself about existence and meaning of life"
Why is that some requirement of creating intelligent life.
What if knowledge was inserted in the place of needing to ask that question.
What if knowledge in the same way as somethings are inherently known, the answer to these questions were known.
You see, the fundamental issue is, that many problems relating to God, are founded in human arrogance, arrogance in thinking that we know all the ways the universe could be.
My conclusion is that God cannot be explained by us, is axiomatic, and explains everything else (but not to our satisfaction) if we're wanting to live in a universe that allows us to do anything at all, yet receive blessing & avoid suffering.
The choice is ours. The universe God created for us, is one in which arrogance towards God is punished (and rightly so) and where humility to God is rewarded. We choose blessing or cursing. Nothing opposing God can succeed in the long term.
@tubewatch59 buddy, you forgetting me? And what's with all the preaching, have you had like a holy exerience or somethin? Oh well doesn't matter, i did appreciate our conversation and your enthusiasm in attempting to prove such a pleasent idea as god.....But why did you leave without saying goodbye?
Yeah, I left you for another! But seriously, I know this guy (Reason Why Guy) from some time back. I found his video while chasing up that Sam Harrs video you sent me. I'm of a mind to watch the whole of that WLC & Harris debate (I downloaded it last night though I have not watched anything save for the Sam Harris segment) and then get back to you although some of what I said here was motivated by that Sam Harris segment. I left out a few things I should have said too.
Now I admit there is an explanatory problem with God in the sense that I did not present any verifiable explanation for God (other than to correct some basic inapplicable reasoning eg. that non-originating entities require an origins explanation).
It's an axiom. When reasoning about God one uses logic to setup non-contradictory scenarios, but we can't "prove God exists". What we can do, is show with science God is likely neccessary, by demonstrating natural laws alone don't explain reality.
(1) Complicated entities create stuff that is simpler than they are.
(2) If the universe was created, then the creator would have to be more complicated than the universe.
However, God is said to have always existed. In other words, God is THE Reality. Such a reality needs no origin explanation, since it never originated. But in any case, there'd be no explanation of God's existence that could be comprehended by simpler entities (like us).
Now when we read that to oppose God is to be punished, then we claim that God is unfair, unjust (same thing) and evil.
However I think that is merely the case - WE would love to live in a trivial pursuit universe, where failure is impossible regardless of our choices. When we then find we aren't offered what we would like to have, we kind of throw a tantrum. Nevertheless God hasn't condemned us to cursing since we can choose for God. But if we're arrogant we choose to rebel. Who loses? Us!
The reason why evil isn't solved effortlessly by God would seem to me to be because God isn't running a game show with trivial solutions to nonproblems in this universe.
In other words, God doesn't want a universe in which there can be no possibility of failure (as described earlier). In such a universe, choosing for or against God would be neither here nor there. Both would have the same outcome, that of blessing. Such a universe would be "trivial pursuit". God "doesn't do trivial"!
The reason why evil exists, is a large topic to cover, but I will "give it a quick bash". Evil seems to me to exist, because genuine free will with the dual possibilities of blessing or cursing was deemed by God to be of prime importance. So evil would seem to be a possible product of free will. So, do we purpose our free will for or against God? Evil results when we oppose God. Why would any created creature seek to rebel against God? The answers to that question are elaborations on evil.
God being responsible overall for the way the universe is, is also responsible to provide a means for us to escape that is based on free will. So we too (since we have genuine free will) are responsible for our destinies - either for God, to blessing, or against God, for cursing. We decide that based on humility or arrogance with respect to God's offered plan of salvation for us.
So God is prepared to send people to hell, if they commit arrogance against God's salvation plan for them.
In addition, God is thus responsible overall for the universe which allows failure to occur. But this means that failure to achieve blessing is a possibility that God "wants" (God wants the kind of universe in which genuine free will exists and has good or bad consequences) because without it there would be no genuine free will. This is horrific for us, if we choose against God. (Pride is the deciding factor in such decisions.) On the other hand, it's marvellous for us if we choose for God.
Since it seems that free will is important to God, then a universe in which creatures have free will to make important decisions, and do so, while either reaping benefits or suffering loss based on those genuine free will decisions, would be a universe that God wants (warts and all), if free will is important to God.
Thus a universe in which everything is protected from suffering due to no possibility of failure isn't a universe that God would want.
Hello Reason Why Guy! Long time no see. (Or I should say, long time no 500 character paragraph :-)
I saw your video and thought I'd have a bash at it. I'll see if I can cover most of the points briefly:
I believe God can enable genuine free will in created creatures, while yet knowing the outcomes in advance, without having negated that free will in the process of knowing in advance what will happen. We take sides on whether free will exists or not, but I think my view is consistent.
This is a naive argument for turning fundamentalist idiots to fundamentalist half idiots.Anybody with a hint of an altered state of consciousness experience will recognise this argument as meaningless words and words and words.Also from a clearly logical perspective the argument is flawed too.If a god were 100/100 subject to human logic it would not be much of a god.It would be a human construct anyway.
@TheReasonWhyGuy The problem is that you are trying to analyze something that if exists is probably beyond any normal comperhension.The whole idea of god itself comes from the realisation(accepted or not)that human conventional procedure of knowledge is by nature limited and this can be frightening.Noone would believe in a god otherwise.
@TheReasonWhyGuy When did you put forth that argument.You did when you started all the if stuff about god.In this way you predetermined god as something fully comperhensible through human logic.But at the same time you made a logical mistake from the beginning.When something is by definition beyond logic it is futile to try to limit it within logic.Whether is exists or not.
Also, if God really made angels & humans, then what purpose were we made for. The bible simple states, to serve God. Now, if man & angels were perfect, that could only be defined within the scope of our purpose. If MANY angels & man fail their purpose, then blame the Maker. What product falls short, & you blame the product. Noone does that. You blame the maker of the product. If a PERFECT product can make decisions, then it can ONLY make decisions within the scope of it's inteneded purpose.
@TheReasonWhyGuy -Something deemed "perfect" would be self sufficient. Bible god begs Israel to worship him, showing how imperfect, & selfishly motivated his desires are.
It's good to look into the whole "purpose" argument, as the "purpose" for angels & man is in the bible. A logical, & reasoning person can easily see that a purpose had to exist before the product fulfilling that purpose. When the schematics are intensily looked at, it's enough for one to throw the silly belief away.
Sin is mythical. Just look at how ancient man saw things. Man was always dying. Man noticed that through injuries via hunting, or war, that when a human bleeds alot, they die quickly. That's where the observance of "life is in the blood" came from. When a person died naturally, no blood visably came out of them, so the idea of something tainting the blood ( sin) was made up. When woman lost blood monthly, & didn't die, this wasn't understood, so priest made them "unclean" at those times.
Very good points made in this video. It's really simple logic. The only way to think biblical God is Love, & made with sugar & spice, & everything nice, is to use confused logic ( which isn't logic). Math is the highest degree of provable logic that can exist, as it can be used to check itself. It's plain to see that the TRUE logic used by TheReasonWhyGuy checks itself as correct.
If God "knows the finale before the beginning", then why would He roll a gutterball? Christians need to think.
Well, some questions for you: Why should we live in more times to know them? Isn't it possible that bad and evil are needed for us, for example we can grow by problems and appreciate good more, our life is more interesting, etc.? What would be a perfect world like? And what if the life is perfect with its 'imperfections'? (Actually I've had a hard life but I am this strong person now because I've gone through many things.) And do you really think some people are born evil /bad by nature/?
Ofcourse I was being sarcastic. Since "God" does not exist: He NEVER existed. He is eternally nonexistant., and his "followers", who are simultaniously his creators, are eternally clueless.
@Avalon400 How did God create himself. I don't care how powerful God is, but something that doesn't exist can create itself. And boredom isn't the greatest evil. Indifference is.
Okay, well what if you interpret God in a less religious sense and more philosophical sense? For example, assuming that things cannot create themselves, then everything was made by something else. Since their can't be an infinite number of things creating other things, their must have been an original creator. I respect all opinions and beliefs on God, but in my opinion this way of thinking of him works best for me. "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived" is what I believe.
@bfmv927 "assuming that things cannot create themselves"
STRAWMAN!!!
Philosophically, the question is between about whether the universe was caused by an outside force, or it is eternal. It's possible, that what we see as the beginning of our universe, is just the effect of an eternal existence, which is neither conscious, nor capable of having intent. Thus the word "create", wouldn't apply.
FYI, I usually talk about god in the "less religious" sense.
'free will' is automatically negated with the phrase 'all are sinners'
the concept that 'all are sinners' means you have no choice to be otherwise. i don't sin, but a christian will insist i do, as if they're omniscient, even though they can't name a single sin committed by me (the fact that atheists CAN'T sin is beside the point here). pffft
True, however that can be used as a justification for almost any evil.
Hitler could have said that he was doing good, because he believed that the world would be better off after he was done. The question involves, looking at the process used, and the results you can see. If god is all powerful, and all knowing, then any auxiliary suffering is would call into question his good'ness, since he could have influenced any number of events, to prevent it.
I’m your sergeant. You sweat, and you sweat a big lot. Then you ache. And you ache a lot. Then some time later you go to war and you know how to save your butt (and your colleagues’).
Pain? Ok, yes, it’s required.
Gain? You bet it.
Now, if Marines give you their "Ok, course completed" after 2 days, you’d save a lot of kicks in the ass, but you’d be a terrible soldier, and probably a quite dead one in case of war, and in good company.
May it work metaphysically too? I think it’s possible.
Maybe it’s not that "he" wants humans’ to suffer ("Ye cry!"). Nah. Maybe it’s just that you got to sweat a little bit to prove you’re willing and able; like in Marines, you know, in this case to lose your bad karma and become better. When you do suffer, you come out wiser and stronger from your experiences (and less a dick, you know). Meritocracy.
Otherwise, no Earth, everybody wins, game over. Let’s all go fishing on Sirio!
@tutubi49 Yeah, but this is effectively defeating the argument.
if Suffering=Better people, then why are these cases of the opposite so common.
I agree that appreciation, and understanding come from lacking and acknowledging ignorance, however suffering isn't the only way lacking helps appreciation.
Values are subjective.So God can be allknowing, the creator, all good, timeless and all poverfull. This would mean that there is no evil (pain is not bad, death is not bad, causing these things is not bad, hating or not believing in God is not bad). If all our subjective values disappeare, the world and universe is perfect and anything we do doesn't matter as it is eigher all good or doesn't matter.
But I rather want to believe that there is no God than that. I stick to the subjective values.
In other words, "God has created the universe, but in order to explain God's existence we must include him within the universe which is an idea that contradicts the Creator being more complicated than the created." I disagree. Scientists have postulated a Big Bang and a Multiverse which both can explain the universe but from an outside perspective. I think it would be better to say that we must explain God in terms of the universe.
You killed yourself. If "God" is more complicated than the universe, then tell me EVERYTHING about the universe, show me you fully understand it, THEN I will listen to you rant out "God".
Also, I just love that "...probably isn't real." Part XD Agnostic, are we? :)
@TheReasonWhyGuy I had assumed from the video that you were atheist, I apologize. And true, that has little relevance.
Also, before I may go much, farther, would you prefer me argue from Christian perspective, since that's who you are disproving in this video, or from my personal religious views? They are different enough that it would impact the argument quite a bit if I used one instead of the other.
i'm thankful for all of you, who talk these issues out with sound, logical arguments. It's very settling to know that there are people in this world who are able to accept everything for what it is. THIS is what youtube should be about.
According to Christian writings "God is perfect, all powerful, omniscience, omnipresent cannot be conquered, filled with love and grace" but not even him could keep the devil around him in heaven becuz of the fair of dethroning, rather he kick him(satan) out of heaven to earth then in the old testament he sorry he made man becaz the devil deceive us. What double standard, he should have kept the devil in heaven & see how long he would be so called king of universe.
Do I really have a choice? "I was born on sin and shaped in iniquity"; according to the so called bible. If "God" really gave me a choice then I would be able to choose good or evil from conception. and not when am age 7.
When I was born, i was born with the knowledge of sucking on my mothers nipples, cry when am hungry, cry when my diaper needed change know the difference between my mothers arms and strangers all this knowledge I was born with, but it was when i reach age 7 am told that their is a god and that my life depends on it. Question If god is my maker then wouldn't I be genetically encoded to know him from birth..."Apple makes computers and stamp Apple on them"
@TheReasonWhyGuy I refer you to Gottfried Leibniz's theory on the Best of All Possible Worlds. In short, it is this: If God's interference is the "ultimate evil" by stifling free will, then he will not intervene. Furthermore, by giving humans free will, the ability to do evil due to our imperfect nature is formed. Therefore, though there is suffering in the world, any world without free will is ultimately worse. By refraining from acting, God is omniscient/omnipotent yet there is free will.
@Quackythedarkduck Whew. That hit the character limit, so I didn't get to thank you for putting up these thought-provoking videos. Though we disagree on this particular subject, I believe that contemplation of beliefs is essential to ALL people, so thank you again for providing this service.
@carudatta and if there isn't a god, then she would/could be within human logic.
We can play this bullshit game all day :P
As a side note, nothing about god's nature requires her to be beyond human logic. The only thing that requires that, is desperation of those who wish to believe, but have no good reason.
if we apply human logic, we find there couldn't be a god -> IF there is a god, She is beyond human logic. thus god's nature DOES require her to be beyond human logic.
that's also why there will never be a good reason to believe, as good reasons need to be logical. ask the believers - they all believe for illogical reasons.
rationalizing religion is no good, but it does a lot of good to realize that religion is by definition unreasonable, so should be kept out of practical dealings among humans.
I don't really know how we, out past manage to think up "god" as an existence and created our future. But weirdest thing is, if we follow science instead of god, then might be something created us other than god and the future exists itself all the time and infinity. But that's more confusing. Do anyone know how possibly life-forms could exists itself suddenly in a habitat-able zones like our earth?
@kei1010101010 I don't mean to be rude but, please try to be clearer XD....
Ok, you ask how we could have came up with God?
Simple, we just started making things, tools and what not, and thought that the world could have been made by some greater beings. :)
On the topic of abiogenesis, well all life truly needs, is a type of molecule which through chemistry, can, using energy from heat of photons, duplicate itself. :)
@TheReasonWhyGuy It may not be that simple. While science is indispensable for a comfortable life by solving physical phenomena, it cannot easily solve the "why´s" of life (mental phenomena). The human mind is far too complex. For the scientist to postulate that consciousness derives from chemical reactions is to believe that human emotions began with the sun acting on earth, which would make us "worshippers" of the sun; how´s this different from religion? ..(I may be wrong, clear me up).
@ruffomaldito I don't mean to sound rude, but are you seriously gonna say that, the literally one quadrillion connections interacting in the human brain, can't be where the human "soul" resides? That's 1,000,000,000,000,000 connections...
I think if that number doesn't strike you, then you don't understand what that number represents.
I work with neural nets, and I've seen how even a set or 10 neurons can do complex tasks.
It's easy to say it's too complex, thus we KNOW it can't be.
But seriously, of what interest would that be to me when I´ve just been declared a terminal cancer candidate, with one month to live. What will that do to my "soul"? How will science help me deal with my past, full of mistakes, wrong-doings galore. Shall I just receive, on my deathbed, a "sorry" smile from Doc, an edition of "The God Delusion" from my atheist friends, and a sample of The origin of the species from my "loving" wife?
@Luke0024 Excuse me! I don't mean to be rude but I'll have you know that I am the messiah and so is my wife! We even have the robes to prove it!!! (and the beards...actually I don't but she does).
@Luke0024 Either you're a troll, or you fit the stereotypical behavior pattern of one.
First of all, try using a period, or some other form of punctuation.
Secondly, God doesn't "see" the future, since the only reason that was even said was, that God knows all. If I know all, I can't choose not to, that contradicts the first definition, since to choose to not know all, means afterward I stop knowing all. On top of that, God being timeless, according to theists, can't perform separate actions.
@derek24hudson Thanks, though out of the current 450 comments, the only response I've read which is decent is, that their definition of what god is, is different from the typical definition. Honestly, my only response to that was, that if I made this video about refuting all gods, it would never have ended : /
@TheReasonWhyGuy It´s good that you stated this. I realize how much time is invested by atheists who try to show inconsistencies in thinking by many theists; something which I, a believer, must laud. But, such is human language. While the intention is good and of teaching value, have you any way to determine if your vids have had results in any way? ...I, for one, can tell you, that I usually learn more from atheists than from believers. (I also crack up from some viewer´s comments.) Thanks.
Thanks, though honestly, I don't know if my videos have ANY result at all.
In fact, I've found that people are often more responsible for their reactions, then those trying to persuade. By this I mean, that I can only impact people as much as, the are ready to be impacted.
It's thought to be amazing how we can effect each others lives in profound ways, yet some people seem more open to such influences than others.
Honestly even if I only change 1 mind, this video is justified :)
Also, there are some things that can't be explained by any of us. Doesn't matter, if u r a scientist or an IT technologist who just wanted to make a video.
Aaand, I wasn't talking about the author, I am just saying. :)
@graceCup "Some of uthe arguments aren't logical. :)"
Constructive criticism please, don't just proclaim that "some" of the arguments aren't logical, actually point out flaws. Simply declaring that some aren't logical, and then not feeling the need to give an example, shows me your feigned superiority.
"some things that can't be explained by any of us"
Perhaps, however this video is aimed at the theists who think they KNOW god exists, and thus likely think they can argue for his existence.
the theory on god being, or not being in your case, timeless is interesting, but you take it very much from the standpoint of a human. what about the idea that god, being something which humans are not able to understand, is not bound by physical rules like humans are? from this standpoint, god could very well be outside of time. this would allow free will, seeing that god would know everything that happens, since he would be everywhere, in every time (if that makes sense haha).
If god has flaws,than apparently he doesn't exist.Because god has been described to me as flawless.It says that he tests people.He should already know what they are going to do right?So that's a flaw.If he has to sacrifice himself to fix a mistake.That's a flaw.If he was a man.That's a flaw.Jesus went to hell briefly.Regardless of why or how long,it means that god went to hell.That seems like a flaw.Seems like nobody can dodge hell if god cant.
@iChickencoop "I put no limits on God. I believe in God, the Trinity..."
Congrats on contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.
By claiming god has a characteristic, like being a triune god, you limit what god could be, and thus are guilty of the very crime you claimed I committed :P
To make things ENORMOUSLY simple, by defining god, you limit god.
An unlimited being cannot be defined, however every religion put some limit on god, by claiming something about god.
So if God isn't real, and science is the great answer to everything and it's just "lights out" when we die....what is the point of anything? Just live in the moment for as long as possible?
How is "both able and willing" a problem? I know numerous examples of God hardening people's hearts and otherwise having complete control over all evil imaginable... for the good of his beloved people! The last part of the sentence is crucial to understanding why God is so patient with something that is an exact opposite of Him. Also you've presented an argument similar to - how is a broken TV guilty of not working and what if it works from time to time? God is not willing to save everybody.
Why did He create the reprobate? To show openly His hatred towards evil and to show His justice - He leaves no sin unpunished. Like in a harvest, one part of the plant is for food and the other to fuel the fire, none without purpose. It all comes down to God's love, or rather the relationship within the Trinity that demands vengeance when wrong is done against the loved one.
Bad analogy. You're not innocent, but a lawbreaker (sinner) and you're definitely bankrupt of good.
@TheReasonWhyGuy your arrogance , i'm not being arrogant i'm true you just talk about anything not God, let me remember you that no ONE can ever prove that something does not exist !!
@backtublive "no ONE can ever prove that something does not exist "
Agreed, and that's why I don't try to.
This video isn't called "why god can't exist", it's "god is flawed" referring to the logical construct known as god.
This video is about why the concept of god is inconsistent, or simply illogical, and thus I then make a plea to abandon this irrational belief. However, god simply being illogical doesn't mean god can't exist, since some may argue that god is not bound by logic.
@TheReasonWhyGuy just one thing the will of God is beyond that of humans which makes you doing a video to tell "why god can't exist" illogical since you don't know why you're here yourself, understand that you try to " educate people " with nothing in hand you just want people to assume you own thoughts , sadly for you God talked and you can't say he does not exist other than ignoring that truth.
@backtublive and again, I didn't make a video called "why god can't exist"
The fact that I've already responded to that claim, makes me think you aren't even reading my replies.
Alright, you think god is beyond logic, fine, remember, this video is only refuting human understandings of god, by showing why they're logically flawed.
@backtublive If god is beyond logic then no meaningful conversation can be had on the subject. Hence, why is there religion? Religion is just man blabbering on about nonsense.
@backtublive I won't allow for any sort of 'special victim' status. If one wishes to assert their religion in particular IS true then they may try to justify it in the marketplace of ideas and we may both discover truth. Most people's idea of a god is vague, ambiguous and found in the margins conveniently hidden from scrutiny. Now, if one has some working definition of god we can explore it's possibility. If not conversation is meaningless.
I think your missing an important point... maybe if there is an all powerful, timeless entity that created the universe but he isnt all good. maybe he enjoys see people suffer much like people who watch funniest home videos.
The majority of theists, view God as being all good, but if he isn't, then no logical fallacies emerge, and thus the idea is at least a logical possibility :)
"If God is all powerful, then His creation will be exactly what He wants it to be"
Not so my friend, God is not a dictator. He has given everybody free will. With free will the creation only becomes what He want him/her to be if he/she submits himself/herself 100% or totally to Him to the point that it could be said that His will be above my will.
As for traveling faster than the speed of light, no temporal speed limit exists, or at least as far as we know, so you'd not be going beyond the speed of light, but rather the energy put into traveling faster, would go to another direction of travel, which is temporal.
So, for your idea to be even minutely plausible, you must first show that a temporal speed limit exists.
The theory that every choice someone could possibly make is real in an alternate universe. (sounds kinda messed up) But it's actually a very respected theory among cosmologists. In this theory if God does exist he could see how every choice is played out, therefore having predestination and free will. This is only a theory, and I don't really know enough about this, it's just a thought: our situations are predestined, and our choices are our own to make. Does that make sense at all? Or am I just
Um, I knew what it was, I asked "what about it", not "what is it"... *glares*
The multiverse theory is far more impacting than just the lei understanding, which is that all events occur. No, it stretches to the point that, all forms of logical, and illogical reality exist, and that we just inhabit a specific form, within an infinitely formless, and infinitely structured multiverse
Dimensions beyond just variables would exist, to the extent that all arguments mean nothing.
The owner of the corn did suffer, because his right to property was violated; also, you suffered by degrading your own dignity and becoming a theif; also, the glory of God's sufficiency for you and your family has been denied, so God has been offended, which leads to the next paragraph.
"That caused by the evil."
What original suffering caused by the evil? Who suffers? God, or the one who sinned against him?
Also, when I say suffering, I'm not talking about some abstract, oh my property rights have been violated, I meaning feeling, and physically suffering.
""That caused by the evil.""
When I said that, I wasn't referring to God, you've been switching it over to God, and each time I remind you, that why does 1 evil, repay another? 2 wrongs DON'T make a right, so I ask you again, how is revenge just.
You don't think a person feels violated when his property is stolen?
It's not about God arbitrarily making the sinner suffer in return. It's that God CANNOT, by virtue of his very nature, be the one to suffer. Offense BRINGS suffering, but when God is offended the offender must suffer, since God, by virtue of the fact that he is God, cannot. Therefore, all offenders must suffer. It is a law of being. It's just the way it is.
@NomosCharis "You don't think a person feels violated when his property is stolen?"
You're assuming that they find out... if 1 of 10,000 cobs go missing, do you think they'll even notice?
Unless they're counting, they won't notice.
As for God needing to torture his own creation infinitely, for an infinite time, for finite crimes, over a finite time, even assuming that suffering should be repaid with suffering, it's still unjust.
Even if he never finds out, his suspicion that perhaps he is being stolen from causes him unnecessary grief. Also, your vexed conscience will trouble you.
1stly, it's not that suffering should be repaid with suffering; it's that offense always brings suffering, and so, in light of that, offenders (rather than those offended) should be the ones to suffer.
Assuming that premise, people don't suffer forever because of a finite number of finite crimes. They suffer forever because they have committed an infinite crime deserving infinite punishment, and since they are finite beings of finite worth, they can never finish paying for what they've done.
To help us imagine this: suppose you kill a bee. Is that more or less serious than stealing from a man. Why the difference? Now imagine a man sinning against God. That's why hell exists.
A finite being, with finite abilities, acting over a finite time, CANNOT deserve infinite torture over an infinite time, even if they're only beings of finite worth.
Do the math
finite*finite*finite<infinite*infinite
Hell, even assuming that we could commit an infinite crime
finite*finite*infinite<infinite*infinite
Unless we're either infinite beings, or we have an infinite amount of time to commit infinitely evil crimes, then this isn't justice, it's malice.
@NomosCharis "offenders (rather than those offended) should be the ones to suffer. "
AGREED, however, the word RATHER is the most important word, since all that means is, if instead, then yes, but it doesn't mean in addition to.
I would rather x then y, doesn't mean that if x then also y. So if I could stop a crime, by doing less than or equal to the amount of harm, then I would, but afterward, there is no point in harming anyone, or getting revenge.
Even if we commit an infinite crime? Do you suppose that a being with finite resources can ever finish payment for a crime deserving infinite punishment? How would this happen?
If all wrong doing brings suffering, and wrong is done, then someone MUST suffer. Thus, if wrong is done to one who should not, or rather cannot suffer, then the wrong doer must suffer. Otherwise, it is the same as saying the action done was NOT wrong.
"Do you suppose that a being with finite resources can ever finish payment for a crime deserving infinite punishment?"
FAIL, the payment isn't done with the beings finite resources, unlike the crime... no the punishment is infinite, so the payment is infinite per time unit, and over an infinite amount of time... seriously, how hard is it to see, unless you don't care about seeing reality, and instead are stuck in the mindset which you've adopted.
It's not infinite per time unit. That's because no finite being is able to experience infinite suffering within any single moment of time (precisely because we are finite). Even if the suffering is unimaginably great, and greater than the being can withstand, at any one time a finite being can only suffer a finite amount. That's why it takes an infinite amount of time for us to pay our debt for crimes comitted against God.
@NomosCharis Alright, then that's the end of that logic branch, but now you still have the huge burden of showing how a finite being, over a finite time, could do any amount of things worthy in total, for said infinite punishment.
Assuming that God exists in the way the Bible claims, he is the only infinitely valuable and sovereign creator of everything (including us). We therefore owe him our perfect obedience (from his sovereignty), and our perfect love (from his value).
If we withold these from him, and instead give them to beings less worthy which have not made us, we insinuate that God is not of so great value and has no right to command us, and we thus dishonor him.
Since God is the creator of all things, and is in fact infintely valueable, and has infinite right to our lives, we have dishonored the one who is worthy of infinite honor. We have treated the one of infinite worth as less worthy than finite things. We have said "No" to the one who has infinite right to our lives and our choices. This wrong must be paid for or else God would be agreeing with it and calling it "right," and God cannot deny his own value by valuing us more.
...But, to dishonor the infinitely honorable is an infinite offense. To reject the infinitely valuable is an infinite wrong. The person who commits this act acquires infinite guilt. The reason for this is not in the action, but in the nature of the one against whom the action was committed, and the honor and love and obedience he deserved. Just like offending the President is more serious than offending a child.
A finite being committing this crime cannot ever make-up for his guilt.
He cannot ever pay his debt. He cannot ever make satisfaction for his crime. The criminal has a finite and now-deficient worth with which to pay it.
For instance: If it is true that we owe God perfect obedience, and we have even once been disobedient, how can we ever pay what we owe him now? Can we ever be perfectly obedient again once we have been disobedient?
By our sins therefore we have sold ourselves into slavery, and must pay forever to satisfy our debt.
This of course can only be true of sins committed against God, and cannot be true of sins committed against any other being. Only God is infinitely worthy and infinitely honorable, and only God deserves absolute love and perfect obedience from anyone.
I call shenanigans. Values are subjective, period. We give value to things, nothing is valuable until we give it value, this is kind of obvious, LOL, wait. "God cannot deny his own value by valuing us more" ,so he loves himself infinitely more than he loves us? Wonderful, again, values aren't facts set in stone, they are values. "Love and obedience he deserved"...who decided this? Oh, he did? Oh ok, that makes sense. This is what makes him a tyrant and unworthy of love, isn't it?
Secondly, I see that you are giving him "infinite" properties in certain sectors, but if he truly is infinite, then he'd have to be infinite everything, as good as he is evil, as angry as he is calm, etc. So infinite kindness, love, MERCY, selflessness etc, would be needed as well, none of these are displayed. "Love me, or else". Note, Love does not involve fear, love is not forced and there are to be no negative consequences to not loving someone, no matter who it is.
The whole of this point rests on the assumption that God exists in the way the Bible claims.
Now, IF God does exist in that way, value is not relative to our subjective opinion or even God's. God is absolute value, and God exists necessarily--not because he chooses to exist but because his nature is to exist necessarily. So, God cannot choose to not value himself above all things any more than he can choose to not exist.
For this reason, God does not "decide" that he deserves our perfect love. Nor does he "decide" that we owe him our unconditional obedience. He made us, so he owns us, sustains us, and has every right to command us. When we say "no," we deny his authority and withold from him what is his. It is wrong. That's just the way it is.
Yes, God is also infinite love, but he loves himself first, not us, and when we imply by our actions that we are more valuable than him he must uphold his honor.
You've got to be kidding me, try telling that to the children who are receiving Gods greatest gift, and suffering to death from starvation... after all, isn't suffering good? Boy, God sure loves feeding those who already have too much food.
You're a sick fuck if you worship suffering, and think that anyone deserves to suffer, or more aptly, any newborn baby deserves to starve to death.
I don't have time right now to answer all these points. Babies dying of starvation is a whole new question. If they all go immediately to heaven, no one would complain in the end. That's one possibility. Also, many of the reasons they suffer is because people don't care, so we should be quick to blame ourselves. I'll have to leave it at that for now. Please refrain from calling me names.
"Babies dying of starvation is a whole new question. If they all go immediately to heaven, no one would complain in the end."
Why do babies automatically go to heaven, it sure as hell doesn't say that in the bible, and I've personally check many times. Babies haven't been forgiven for original sin, because they haven't accepted jesus right? Also, doesn't that give people motivation to murder babies... why let a soul risk hell? I would sacrifice my eternity if it meant that...
... the babies I killed would all go to heaven... what kind of selfish bastard would risk innocent souls to be tempted by satan, just for their own eternal bliss?
Of coarse I don't believe in any of that stuff, but now baby killers seem a little more justified by that theology.
Of coarse you could claim that those babies might have converted millions, but why not just kill millions of babies... I hope you get my point, and the flaw in that morality.
God knows before the creation that he would create X knowing in advance X would not worship specifically him and ultimately be sent to hell (Before he was created So what is even the point?
MrEmeraldfusion 2 months ago
@MrEmeraldfusion Freewill cannot be possible if events are set.
If a future event is known with 100% certainty to happen, then that event its set.
TheReasonWhyGuy 2 months ago
in order to feel fullfilled in life we must overcome some problem... in order to get creative we must find a problem to resolve...
ok then basically if god makes a "happy" world the people inside this world would be unhappy... or less intelligent.... or boring.....and if they are allways happy ....(they dont know suffering) then how did they know they are happy in the first place? they would ask themselfs....why did god make this world? and we start again....
fabioxperuggia 3 months ago
@fabioxperuggia "in order to feel fullfilled in life we must overcome some problem"
That is only true if god wished it to be true.
If the options are between a world without mass genocide, and a world with it, apparently you believe mass genocide is the moral decision.
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
@fabioxperuggia "how culd they be happy in the first place" simple. by being happy. if god is allpowerfull he can make eating candy everlasting joy that never gets old. same thing with this. god culd make humans happy without any evil. that what omnipitant means. in the end, if god exists, that god is flawed. but mostliekly, he does not.
gethsoftware 2 months ago
ok here is an idea... (i dont belive in god btw) god is not evil for not helping humans to live... if he helped us out then (without problems) humans would be stupid creatures without meaning.... so he introduce problems and conflict to us... then we get ideas...motivation...reason to live...and we "become" "perfect" (or at least more usefull and happy)... of course some ppl will have a hard and ugly time... but thats life... if we all were without problems..... we woudnt be happy...
fabioxperuggia 3 months ago
@fabioxperuggia "god is not evil for not helping humans to live"
I'm not talking about god helping us to live, rather the design he came up with to begin with.
If he's all powerful, and can create anything, then the question becomes, why would god need humans to have problems, in order for them to not be stupid.
You're running off of how humans are, and treating those as if they are absolute laws of some higher reality.
In fact humans are based on this reality, thus your standard is flawed.
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy no u are getting it wrong.... im just justifying why a posible "god" would make "this" world... look... anything that a "god" would create and give it "intelligence" then at one moment no matter in wich world that creature its living, he will ask himself about existence and meaning of life... so if I am god and created this world... a world at its origings "good" and give people "feee will" then by that standart I cannot take part in the lives of the people of the world...
fabioxperuggia 3 months ago
@fabioxperuggia "he will ask himself about existence and meaning of life"
Why is that some requirement of creating intelligent life.
What if knowledge was inserted in the place of needing to ask that question.
What if knowledge in the same way as somethings are inherently known, the answer to these questions were known.
You see, the fundamental issue is, that many problems relating to God, are founded in human arrogance, arrogance in thinking that we know all the ways the universe could be.
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
god isnt timeles. hes outside of time. and he is omniscient. god made his creation perfect but he allowed us to sin.
goldbagel 3 months ago
@goldbagel A perfect creation would be without flaws.
A creation which has beings which would choose evil over good is a flawed creation, so long as the creator is good and all knowing.
Oh, and timeless=outside time
Timeless not in the sense that "diamonds are forever", rather being that he lacks the restrictions which time imposes.
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
i used to be an atheist until i realized im god!
caesar01c 3 months ago
@caesar01c HAHA
I certainly hope that was a joke :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
@caesar01c wouldn't you still be an atheist since you would reject the idea you were created by a higher being?
systematic101 3 months ago
@systematic101 nah, atheists don't believe a god exists... thus you can't think you're god and be an atheist unless you don't believe you exist XD
TheReasonWhyGuy 3 months ago
My conclusion is that God cannot be explained by us, is axiomatic, and explains everything else (but not to our satisfaction) if we're wanting to live in a universe that allows us to do anything at all, yet receive blessing & avoid suffering.
The choice is ours. The universe God created for us, is one in which arrogance towards God is punished (and rightly so) and where humility to God is rewarded. We choose blessing or cursing. Nothing opposing God can succeed in the long term.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
@tubewatch59 buddy, you forgetting me? And what's with all the preaching, have you had like a holy exerience or somethin? Oh well doesn't matter, i did appreciate our conversation and your enthusiasm in attempting to prove such a pleasent idea as god.....But why did you leave without saying goodbye?
MumblingSolipsist 5 months ago
@MumblingSolipsist
Yeah, I left you for another! But seriously, I know this guy (Reason Why Guy) from some time back. I found his video while chasing up that Sam Harrs video you sent me. I'm of a mind to watch the whole of that WLC & Harris debate (I downloaded it last night though I have not watched anything save for the Sam Harris segment) and then get back to you although some of what I said here was motivated by that Sam Harris segment. I left out a few things I should have said too.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
Now I admit there is an explanatory problem with God in the sense that I did not present any verifiable explanation for God (other than to correct some basic inapplicable reasoning eg. that non-originating entities require an origins explanation).
It's an axiom. When reasoning about God one uses logic to setup non-contradictory scenarios, but we can't "prove God exists". What we can do, is show with science God is likely neccessary, by demonstrating natural laws alone don't explain reality.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
Explanatory problem:
I agree with:
(1) Complicated entities create stuff that is simpler than they are.
(2) If the universe was created, then the creator would have to be more complicated than the universe.
However, God is said to have always existed. In other words, God is THE Reality. Such a reality needs no origin explanation, since it never originated. But in any case, there'd be no explanation of God's existence that could be comprehended by simpler entities (like us).
tubewatch59 5 months ago
Now when we read that to oppose God is to be punished, then we claim that God is unfair, unjust (same thing) and evil.
However I think that is merely the case - WE would love to live in a trivial pursuit universe, where failure is impossible regardless of our choices. When we then find we aren't offered what we would like to have, we kind of throw a tantrum. Nevertheless God hasn't condemned us to cursing since we can choose for God. But if we're arrogant we choose to rebel. Who loses? Us!
tubewatch59 5 months ago
The reason why evil isn't solved effortlessly by God would seem to me to be because God isn't running a game show with trivial solutions to nonproblems in this universe.
In other words, God doesn't want a universe in which there can be no possibility of failure (as described earlier). In such a universe, choosing for or against God would be neither here nor there. Both would have the same outcome, that of blessing. Such a universe would be "trivial pursuit". God "doesn't do trivial"!
tubewatch59 5 months ago
The reason why evil exists, is a large topic to cover, but I will "give it a quick bash". Evil seems to me to exist, because genuine free will with the dual possibilities of blessing or cursing was deemed by God to be of prime importance. So evil would seem to be a possible product of free will. So, do we purpose our free will for or against God? Evil results when we oppose God. Why would any created creature seek to rebel against God? The answers to that question are elaborations on evil.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
God being responsible overall for the way the universe is, is also responsible to provide a means for us to escape that is based on free will. So we too (since we have genuine free will) are responsible for our destinies - either for God, to blessing, or against God, for cursing. We decide that based on humility or arrogance with respect to God's offered plan of salvation for us.
So God is prepared to send people to hell, if they commit arrogance against God's salvation plan for them.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
In addition, God is thus responsible overall for the universe which allows failure to occur. But this means that failure to achieve blessing is a possibility that God "wants" (God wants the kind of universe in which genuine free will exists and has good or bad consequences) because without it there would be no genuine free will. This is horrific for us, if we choose against God. (Pride is the deciding factor in such decisions.) On the other hand, it's marvellous for us if we choose for God.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
So is God getting exactly what He wants?
Since it seems that free will is important to God, then a universe in which creatures have free will to make important decisions, and do so, while either reaping benefits or suffering loss based on those genuine free will decisions, would be a universe that God wants (warts and all), if free will is important to God.
Thus a universe in which everything is protected from suffering due to no possibility of failure isn't a universe that God would want.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
Hello Reason Why Guy! Long time no see. (Or I should say, long time no 500 character paragraph :-)
I saw your video and thought I'd have a bash at it. I'll see if I can cover most of the points briefly:
I believe God can enable genuine free will in created creatures, while yet knowing the outcomes in advance, without having negated that free will in the process of knowing in advance what will happen. We take sides on whether free will exists or not, but I think my view is consistent.
tubewatch59 5 months ago
This is a naive argument for turning fundamentalist idiots to fundamentalist half idiots.Anybody with a hint of an altered state of consciousness experience will recognise this argument as meaningless words and words and words.Also from a clearly logical perspective the argument is flawed too.If a god were 100/100 subject to human logic it would not be much of a god.It would be a human construct anyway.
asasasarap 6 months ago
@asasasarap "If a god were 100/100 subject to human logic it would not be much of a god."
He wouldn't be much of a God if he made his creation to think of the world in a wrong way, using "human logic".
"recognise this argument as meaningless words and words and words"
Typically an argument is made up of "words, and words and words".
Oh and, saying words more times is a very elementary school way of conveying repetition or emphasis.
TheReasonWhyGuy 6 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy The problem is that you are trying to analyze something that if exists is probably beyond any normal comperhension.The whole idea of god itself comes from the realisation(accepted or not)that human conventional procedure of knowledge is by nature limited and this can be frightening.Noone would believe in a god otherwise.
asasasarap 6 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy So god is not a vast something.It's the vast absence of that something.
asasasarap 6 months ago
@asasasarap Straw man:
A sham argument set up to be defeated.
When did I put forth that argument.
TheReasonWhyGuy 6 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy When did you put forth that argument.You did when you started all the if stuff about god.In this way you predetermined god as something fully comperhensible through human logic.But at the same time you made a logical mistake from the beginning.When something is by definition beyond logic it is futile to try to limit it within logic.Whether is exists or not.
asasasarap 6 months ago
@asasasarap You say "When did you put forth that argument.You did when you started all the if stuff about god."
I responded you to saying "So god is not a vast something.It's the vast absence of that something."
That is a non-sequitur.
You are effectively changing the topic back after making a declarative statement wrapped up to look like a question.
You jump from an off the wall comment, back to the discussion and pretend the comment was part of the discussion.
TheReasonWhyGuy 6 months ago
If time doesnt really exist, would God be considered timeless to people who believe in time?
WickedMo13 6 months ago
Also, if God really made angels & humans, then what purpose were we made for. The bible simple states, to serve God. Now, if man & angels were perfect, that could only be defined within the scope of our purpose. If MANY angels & man fail their purpose, then blame the Maker. What product falls short, & you blame the product. Noone does that. You blame the maker of the product. If a PERFECT product can make decisions, then it can ONLY make decisions within the scope of it's inteneded purpose.
RODikUlus 6 months ago
@RODikUlus more to the point...
What need could a perfect God possibly have, which servants could provide.
Doesn't need itself negate perfection, since need means the being lacks something which is required from the outside of themselves.
TheReasonWhyGuy 6 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy -Something deemed "perfect" would be self sufficient. Bible god begs Israel to worship him, showing how imperfect, & selfishly motivated his desires are.
It's good to look into the whole "purpose" argument, as the "purpose" for angels & man is in the bible. A logical, & reasoning person can easily see that a purpose had to exist before the product fulfilling that purpose. When the schematics are intensily looked at, it's enough for one to throw the silly belief away.
RODikUlus 6 months ago
@RODikUlus Exactly :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 6 months ago
Sin is mythical. Just look at how ancient man saw things. Man was always dying. Man noticed that through injuries via hunting, or war, that when a human bleeds alot, they die quickly. That's where the observance of "life is in the blood" came from. When a person died naturally, no blood visably came out of them, so the idea of something tainting the blood ( sin) was made up. When woman lost blood monthly, & didn't die, this wasn't understood, so priest made them "unclean" at those times.
RODikUlus 6 months ago
Very good points made in this video. It's really simple logic. The only way to think biblical God is Love, & made with sugar & spice, & everything nice, is to use confused logic ( which isn't logic). Math is the highest degree of provable logic that can exist, as it can be used to check itself. It's plain to see that the TRUE logic used by TheReasonWhyGuy checks itself as correct.
If God "knows the finale before the beginning", then why would He roll a gutterball? Christians need to think.
RODikUlus 6 months ago
Well, some questions for you: Why should we live in more times to know them? Isn't it possible that bad and evil are needed for us, for example we can grow by problems and appreciate good more, our life is more interesting, etc.? What would be a perfect world like? And what if the life is perfect with its 'imperfections'? (Actually I've had a hard life but I am this strong person now because I've gone through many things.) And do you really think some people are born evil /bad by nature/?
penzeseszter 7 months ago
Ofcourse I was being sarcastic. Since "God" does not exist: He NEVER existed. He is eternally nonexistant., and his "followers", who are simultaniously his creators, are eternally clueless.
Avalon400 8 months ago
The answer is:
God created himself imperfect. This gives God a chance to be challenged.
The lesson to be learned from this: The greatest evil is the evil of BOREDOM.
Avalon400 8 months ago
@Avalon400 hehe... but how doesn't a non-existent entity perform an action, such as creating?
Unless he is eternal, which is that case, he couldn't possibly not exist if he currently exists, else the definition of eternal not be satisfied.
TheReasonWhyGuy 8 months ago
@Avalon400 How did God create himself. I don't care how powerful God is, but something that doesn't exist can create itself. And boredom isn't the greatest evil. Indifference is.
HimesInu 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
loran1949 8 months ago
Okay, well what if you interpret God in a less religious sense and more philosophical sense? For example, assuming that things cannot create themselves, then everything was made by something else. Since their can't be an infinite number of things creating other things, their must have been an original creator. I respect all opinions and beliefs on God, but in my opinion this way of thinking of him works best for me. "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived" is what I believe.
bfmv927 8 months ago
@bfmv927 "assuming that things cannot create themselves"
STRAWMAN!!!
Philosophically, the question is between about whether the universe was caused by an outside force, or it is eternal. It's possible, that what we see as the beginning of our universe, is just the effect of an eternal existence, which is neither conscious, nor capable of having intent. Thus the word "create", wouldn't apply.
FYI, I usually talk about god in the "less religious" sense.
TheReasonWhyGuy 8 months ago 3
'free will' is automatically negated with the phrase 'all are sinners'
the concept that 'all are sinners' means you have no choice to be otherwise. i don't sin, but a christian will insist i do, as if they're omniscient, even though they can't name a single sin committed by me (the fact that atheists CAN'T sin is beside the point here). pffft
GodsArePeopleToo 8 months ago 2
about 1:30 : one’s perception of good isn’t necessarily what he really needs.
tutubi49 9 months ago
@tutubi49
True, however that can be used as a justification for almost any evil.
Hitler could have said that he was doing good, because he believed that the world would be better off after he was done. The question involves, looking at the process used, and the results you can see. If god is all powerful, and all knowing, then any auxiliary suffering is would call into question his good'ness, since he could have influenced any number of events, to prevent it.
TheReasonWhyGuy 9 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy
I see.
I’m your sergeant. You sweat, and you sweat a big lot. Then you ache. And you ache a lot. Then some time later you go to war and you know how to save your butt (and your colleagues’).
Pain? Ok, yes, it’s required.
Gain? You bet it.
Now, if Marines give you their "Ok, course completed" after 2 days, you’d save a lot of kicks in the ass, but you’d be a terrible soldier, and probably a quite dead one in case of war, and in good company.
That’s how it works in human matters.
tutubi49 9 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy
May it work metaphysically too? I think it’s possible.
Maybe it’s not that "he" wants humans’ to suffer ("Ye cry!"). Nah. Maybe it’s just that you got to sweat a little bit to prove you’re willing and able; like in Marines, you know, in this case to lose your bad karma and become better. When you do suffer, you come out wiser and stronger from your experiences (and less a dick, you know). Meritocracy.
Otherwise, no Earth, everybody wins, game over. Let’s all go fishing on Sirio!
tutubi49 9 months ago
@tutubi49 "When you do suffer, you come out wiser and stronger from your experiences (and less a dick, you know). "
LOL, actually, allot of people use their "suffering" as an excuse to be even bigger dicks.
TheReasonWhyGuy 9 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy Ow, I know. I was raised by such persons. In that case, their dickery is actually greater than their discernment, LOL.
"Poor little guys".
They lost that game (I’m such a person every now and then, too).
tutubi49 9 months ago
@tutubi49 Yeah, but this is effectively defeating the argument.
if Suffering=Better people, then why are these cases of the opposite so common.
I agree that appreciation, and understanding come from lacking and acknowledging ignorance, however suffering isn't the only way lacking helps appreciation.
TheReasonWhyGuy 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
my answer here (remove spaces): goo.gl / rNIwE
tutubi49 9 months ago
Values are subjective.So God can be allknowing, the creator, all good, timeless and all poverfull. This would mean that there is no evil (pain is not bad, death is not bad, causing these things is not bad, hating or not believing in God is not bad). If all our subjective values disappeare, the world and universe is perfect and anything we do doesn't matter as it is eigher all good or doesn't matter.
But I rather want to believe that there is no God than that. I stick to the subjective values.
TheSassi14 11 months ago
@TheSassi14 "Values are subjective"
Yes, however values being subjective, DOESN'T negate basic logic.
TheReasonWhyGuy 11 months ago
In other words, "God has created the universe, but in order to explain God's existence we must include him within the universe which is an idea that contradicts the Creator being more complicated than the created." I disagree. Scientists have postulated a Big Bang and a Multiverse which both can explain the universe but from an outside perspective. I think it would be better to say that we must explain God in terms of the universe.
Cristcraeft 11 months ago
You killed yourself. If "God" is more complicated than the universe, then tell me EVERYTHING about the universe, show me you fully understand it, THEN I will listen to you rant out "God".
Also, I just love that "...probably isn't real." Part XD Agnostic, are we? :)
Srewtheshadow 11 months ago
@Srewtheshadow
#1) I freely admit, the LAST segment isn't a sound argument, and the video needs revision for that.
#2) I am agnostic, so how is that relevant?
Being able to admit when you're wrong is the first step towards learning what is right.
This video is broken up into separate sections, so this means that one section being flawed, doesn't negate the other points.
Finally, my being agnostic shouldn't effect your interpretation of this video.
TheReasonWhyGuy 11 months ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy I had assumed from the video that you were atheist, I apologize. And true, that has little relevance.
Also, before I may go much, farther, would you prefer me argue from Christian perspective, since that's who you are disproving in this video, or from my personal religious views? They are different enough that it would impact the argument quite a bit if I used one instead of the other.
Srewtheshadow 11 months ago
@Srewtheshadow "since that's who you are disproving in this video"
Um, with the exception of a single line, this video is addressing a few variants on a monotheistic God.
"I had assumed from the video that you were atheist"
I am an atheist, however I'm also agnostic.
Atheist involves (belief/lack of), agnostic involves (knowledge claims/lack of)
I don't claim to know that god doesn't exist, however I currently don't think god does.
TheReasonWhyGuy 11 months ago
i'm thankful for all of you, who talk these issues out with sound, logical arguments. It's very settling to know that there are people in this world who are able to accept everything for what it is. THIS is what youtube should be about.
SuperOwens23 1 year ago
@SuperOwens23 Thanks :)
I really appreciate it :D
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
God is flawless.
SummerSunshine1988 1 year ago
@SummerSunshine1988
God is flawed.
If you want to actually have an argument, try responding to the points made in the video.
Either that or, we can just start an endless loop of pointless assertions?
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
According to Christian writings "God is perfect, all powerful, omniscience, omnipresent cannot be conquered, filled with love and grace" but not even him could keep the devil around him in heaven becuz of the fair of dethroning, rather he kick him(satan) out of heaven to earth then in the old testament he sorry he made man becaz the devil deceive us. What double standard, he should have kept the devil in heaven & see how long he would be so called king of universe.
Jamdirek 1 year ago
Do I really have a choice? "I was born on sin and shaped in iniquity"; according to the so called bible. If "God" really gave me a choice then I would be able to choose good or evil from conception. and not when am age 7.
Jamdirek 1 year ago
When I was born, i was born with the knowledge of sucking on my mothers nipples, cry when am hungry, cry when my diaper needed change know the difference between my mothers arms and strangers all this knowledge I was born with, but it was when i reach age 7 am told that their is a god and that my life depends on it. Question If god is my maker then wouldn't I be genetically encoded to know him from birth..."Apple makes computers and stamp Apple on them"
Jamdirek 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy I refer you to Gottfried Leibniz's theory on the Best of All Possible Worlds. In short, it is this: If God's interference is the "ultimate evil" by stifling free will, then he will not intervene. Furthermore, by giving humans free will, the ability to do evil due to our imperfect nature is formed. Therefore, though there is suffering in the world, any world without free will is ultimately worse. By refraining from acting, God is omniscient/omnipotent yet there is free will.
Quackythedarkduck 1 year ago
@Quackythedarkduck Whew. That hit the character limit, so I didn't get to thank you for putting up these thought-provoking videos. Though we disagree on this particular subject, I believe that contemplation of beliefs is essential to ALL people, so thank you again for providing this service.
Quackythedarkduck 1 year ago
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Quackythedarkduck 1 year ago
Boy, that sure was complicated.....I´ll have to view it again. Can´t you make it simpler?
ruffomaldito 1 year ago
isn't it obvious? if there is a god, then naturally She is beyond human logic.
carudatta 1 year ago
@carudatta and if there isn't a god, then she would/could be within human logic.
We can play this bullshit game all day :P
As a side note, nothing about god's nature requires her to be beyond human logic. The only thing that requires that, is desperation of those who wish to believe, but have no good reason.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
if we apply human logic, we find there couldn't be a god -> IF there is a god, She is beyond human logic. thus god's nature DOES require her to be beyond human logic.
that's also why there will never be a good reason to believe, as good reasons need to be logical. ask the believers - they all believe for illogical reasons.
rationalizing religion is no good, but it does a lot of good to realize that religion is by definition unreasonable, so should be kept out of practical dealings among humans.
carudatta 1 year ago
@carudatta All women are beyond human logic.lol just kidding.
ranchai100 1 year ago
Fuck this >_> _.l..
Sheeplvl2 1 year ago
That's interesting.
I don't really know how we, out past manage to think up "god" as an existence and created our future. But weirdest thing is, if we follow science instead of god, then might be something created us other than god and the future exists itself all the time and infinity. But that's more confusing. Do anyone know how possibly life-forms could exists itself suddenly in a habitat-able zones like our earth?
kei1010101010 1 year ago
@kei1010101010 I don't mean to be rude but, please try to be clearer XD....
Ok, you ask how we could have came up with God?
Simple, we just started making things, tools and what not, and thought that the world could have been made by some greater beings. :)
On the topic of abiogenesis, well all life truly needs, is a type of molecule which through chemistry, can, using energy from heat of photons, duplicate itself. :)
That's all it needs.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy It may not be that simple. While science is indispensable for a comfortable life by solving physical phenomena, it cannot easily solve the "why´s" of life (mental phenomena). The human mind is far too complex. For the scientist to postulate that consciousness derives from chemical reactions is to believe that human emotions began with the sun acting on earth, which would make us "worshippers" of the sun; how´s this different from religion? ..(I may be wrong, clear me up).
ruffomaldito 1 year ago
@ruffomaldito I don't mean to sound rude, but are you seriously gonna say that, the literally one quadrillion connections interacting in the human brain, can't be where the human "soul" resides? That's 1,000,000,000,000,000 connections...
I think if that number doesn't strike you, then you don't understand what that number represents.
I work with neural nets, and I've seen how even a set or 10 neurons can do complex tasks.
It's easy to say it's too complex, thus we KNOW it can't be.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy Wow!...I wish that was expressed in dollars!
But seriously, of what interest would that be to me when I´ve just been declared a terminal cancer candidate, with one month to live. What will that do to my "soul"? How will science help me deal with my past, full of mistakes, wrong-doings galore. Shall I just receive, on my deathbed, a "sorry" smile from Doc, an edition of "The God Delusion" from my atheist friends, and a sample of The origin of the species from my "loving" wife?
ruffomaldito 1 year ago
@Luke0024 Excuse me! I don't mean to be rude but I'll have you know that I am the messiah and so is my wife! We even have the robes to prove it!!! (and the beards...actually I don't but she does).
HolyPantsMcTavish 1 year ago
He may be flawed but he does have an immaculately groomed beard.
HolyPantsMcTavish 1 year ago
@HolyPantsMcTavish rofl :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@Luke0024 Either you're a troll, or you fit the stereotypical behavior pattern of one.
First of all, try using a period, or some other form of punctuation.
Secondly, God doesn't "see" the future, since the only reason that was even said was, that God knows all. If I know all, I can't choose not to, that contradicts the first definition, since to choose to not know all, means afterward I stop knowing all. On top of that, God being timeless, according to theists, can't perform separate actions.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy well spoken you are so right its things like this that help open people eyes and get on the right track thank you.
superjew1000 1 year ago
Your arguments are cogent and well-reasoned. I cannot detect any logical inconsistencies; perhaps others can. Thanks for posting.
derek24hudson 1 year ago
@derek24hudson Thanks, though out of the current 450 comments, the only response I've read which is decent is, that their definition of what god is, is different from the typical definition. Honestly, my only response to that was, that if I made this video about refuting all gods, it would never have ended : /
Anyway, thanks :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy It´s good that you stated this. I realize how much time is invested by atheists who try to show inconsistencies in thinking by many theists; something which I, a believer, must laud. But, such is human language. While the intention is good and of teaching value, have you any way to determine if your vids have had results in any way? ...I, for one, can tell you, that I usually learn more from atheists than from believers. (I also crack up from some viewer´s comments.) Thanks.
ruffomaldito 1 year ago
@ruffomaldito :)
Thanks, though honestly, I don't know if my videos have ANY result at all.
In fact, I've found that people are often more responsible for their reactions, then those trying to persuade. By this I mean, that I can only impact people as much as, the are ready to be impacted.
It's thought to be amazing how we can effect each others lives in profound ways, yet some people seem more open to such influences than others.
Honestly even if I only change 1 mind, this video is justified :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
This was brilliant...destroys the "free will" concept.
kmcl11 1 year ago
Some of uthe arguments aren't logical. :)
Also, there are some things that can't be explained by any of us. Doesn't matter, if u r a scientist or an IT technologist who just wanted to make a video.
Aaand, I wasn't talking about the author, I am just saying. :)
graceCup 1 year ago
@graceCup "Some of uthe arguments aren't logical. :)"
Constructive criticism please, don't just proclaim that "some" of the arguments aren't logical, actually point out flaws. Simply declaring that some aren't logical, and then not feeling the need to give an example, shows me your feigned superiority.
"some things that can't be explained by any of us"
Perhaps, however this video is aimed at the theists who think they KNOW god exists, and thus likely think they can argue for his existence.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
Nice video, greatly put
lilchris10kid 1 year ago
the theory on god being, or not being in your case, timeless is interesting, but you take it very much from the standpoint of a human. what about the idea that god, being something which humans are not able to understand, is not bound by physical rules like humans are? from this standpoint, god could very well be outside of time. this would allow free will, seeing that god would know everything that happens, since he would be everywhere, in every time (if that makes sense haha).
just a thought
lifeupalpha 1 year ago
Thank You! great vid! i like the timescale analogy, never thought of it like that. I wonder if Einstein thought of this
BlackBeardDelight187 1 year ago
If god has flaws,than apparently he doesn't exist.Because god has been described to me as flawless.It says that he tests people.He should already know what they are going to do right?So that's a flaw.If he has to sacrifice himself to fix a mistake.That's a flaw.If he was a man.That's a flaw.Jesus went to hell briefly.Regardless of why or how long,it means that god went to hell.That seems like a flaw.Seems like nobody can dodge hell if god cant.
SantaSyndrome 1 year ago
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iChickencoop 1 year ago
@iChickencoop "You put limits on God"
Wrong, the believers put limits on him, by claiming he has specific characteristics.
I respond to some of those claims in this video.
"key word 'probably,' [4:41]"
Because I would have to be an arrogant asshole, to assume I "know" either way.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
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iChickencoop 1 year ago
@iChickencoop "I put no limits on God. I believe in God, the Trinity..."
Congrats on contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.
By claiming god has a characteristic, like being a triune god, you limit what god could be, and thus are guilty of the very crime you claimed I committed :P
To make things ENORMOUSLY simple, by defining god, you limit god.
An unlimited being cannot be defined, however every religion put some limit on god, by claiming something about god.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago 13
@TheReasonWhyGuy Amen, dude! Amen.
PrawnSticks 1 year ago
Well done! Good production value too. I like the timelessness argument.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Thanks, actually the idea of timelessness has so many more flaws, but I didn't want this video to be 10 minutes long XD
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
So if God isn't real, and science is the great answer to everything and it's just "lights out" when we die....what is the point of anything? Just live in the moment for as long as possible?
LordWhorfinX2 1 year ago
How is "both able and willing" a problem? I know numerous examples of God hardening people's hearts and otherwise having complete control over all evil imaginable... for the good of his beloved people! The last part of the sentence is crucial to understanding why God is so patient with something that is an exact opposite of Him. Also you've presented an argument similar to - how is a broken TV guilty of not working and what if it works from time to time? God is not willing to save everybody.
MichaelGabrielR 1 year ago
@MichaelGabrielR "God is not willing to save everybody"
Then why did he create people who he wouldn't be willing to save?
Also remember, when you say save, all it means is to save from an eternity of torture in a place that very same god created.
That's not saving, that's bribery...
If I said
"If you don't pay me 50 bucks, I'll break your legs"
and you paid me 50 bucks, I DIDN'T save you.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy
Why did He create the reprobate? To show openly His hatred towards evil and to show His justice - He leaves no sin unpunished. Like in a harvest, one part of the plant is for food and the other to fuel the fire, none without purpose. It all comes down to God's love, or rather the relationship within the Trinity that demands vengeance when wrong is done against the loved one.
Bad analogy. You're not innocent, but a lawbreaker (sinner) and you're definitely bankrupt of good.
MichaelGabrielR 1 year ago
check
backtublive 1 year ago
you can't argue about religion things imo
magge60 1 year ago
@magge60 Ok.... mind backing up that bold assertion?
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy God is not flawed you logic is the one that's flawed
backtublive 1 year ago
@backtublive saying something doesn't make it true.
Make an argument, don't just show off your arrogance ;)
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy your arrogance , i'm not being arrogant i'm true you just talk about anything not God, let me remember you that no ONE can ever prove that something does not exist !!
backtublive 1 year ago
@backtublive "no ONE can ever prove that something does not exist "
Agreed, and that's why I don't try to.
This video isn't called "why god can't exist", it's "god is flawed" referring to the logical construct known as god.
This video is about why the concept of god is inconsistent, or simply illogical, and thus I then make a plea to abandon this irrational belief. However, god simply being illogical doesn't mean god can't exist, since some may argue that god is not bound by logic.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy just one thing the will of God is beyond that of humans which makes you doing a video to tell "why god can't exist" illogical since you don't know why you're here yourself, understand that you try to " educate people " with nothing in hand you just want people to assume you own thoughts , sadly for you God talked and you can't say he does not exist other than ignoring that truth.
backtublive 1 year ago
@backtublive and again, I didn't make a video called "why god can't exist"
The fact that I've already responded to that claim, makes me think you aren't even reading my replies.
Alright, you think god is beyond logic, fine, remember, this video is only refuting human understandings of god, by showing why they're logically flawed.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@TheReasonWhyGuy you are trying to add your own views or some atheists views.
backtublive 1 year ago
@backtublive If god is beyond logic then no meaningful conversation can be had on the subject. Hence, why is there religion? Religion is just man blabbering on about nonsense.
capitalAtheist 1 year ago
@capitalAtheist which religion in particular ?
backtublive 1 year ago
@backtublive I won't allow for any sort of 'special victim' status. If one wishes to assert their religion in particular IS true then they may try to justify it in the marketplace of ideas and we may both discover truth. Most people's idea of a god is vague, ambiguous and found in the margins conveniently hidden from scrutiny. Now, if one has some working definition of god we can explore it's possibility. If not conversation is meaningless.
capitalAtheist 1 year ago
I think your missing an important point... maybe if there is an all powerful, timeless entity that created the universe but he isnt all good. maybe he enjoys see people suffer much like people who watch funniest home videos.
Celebhir 1 year ago
@Celebhir "but he isnt all good. "
The majority of theists, view God as being all good, but if he isn't, then no logical fallacies emerge, and thus the idea is at least a logical possibility :)
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
"If God is all powerful, then His creation will be exactly what He wants it to be"
Not so my friend, God is not a dictator. He has given everybody free will. With free will the creation only becomes what He want him/her to be if he/she submits himself/herself 100% or totally to Him to the point that it could be said that His will be above my will.
ThePrayerHotline 1 year ago
@ThePrayerHotline "free will"
You obviously didn't watch the full video, or didn't comprehend it... I've already covered why that's not an argument.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
Brilliant video, mate. Thanks for the friend request.
Yesitis808 1 year ago
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ThePrayerHotline 1 year ago
"According to science as a body moves closer to the speed of light, its mass increases."
Wrong, please only describe science, if you understand the concepts discovered.
As a body is closer to the speed of light, more of the energy used to accelerate, is converted into mass.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
As for traveling faster than the speed of light, no temporal speed limit exists, or at least as far as we know, so you'd not be going beyond the speed of light, but rather the energy put into traveling faster, would go to another direction of travel, which is temporal.
So, for your idea to be even minutely plausible, you must first show that a temporal speed limit exists.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
What about the Multiverse?
jldkrank 1 year ago
@jldkrank what about it?
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
The theory that every choice someone could possibly make is real in an alternate universe. (sounds kinda messed up) But it's actually a very respected theory among cosmologists. In this theory if God does exist he could see how every choice is played out, therefore having predestination and free will. This is only a theory, and I don't really know enough about this, it's just a thought: our situations are predestined, and our choices are our own to make. Does that make sense at all? Or am I just
jldkrank 1 year ago
Um, I knew what it was, I asked "what about it", not "what is it"... *glares*
The multiverse theory is far more impacting than just the lei understanding, which is that all events occur. No, it stretches to the point that, all forms of logical, and illogical reality exist, and that we just inhabit a specific form, within an infinitely formless, and infinitely structured multiverse
Dimensions beyond just variables would exist, to the extent that all arguments mean nothing.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
an idiot?
jldkrank 1 year ago
nomocharis is obsessivly crazy, nuff sed
adzug 1 year ago 2
The owner of the corn did suffer, because his right to property was violated; also, you suffered by degrading your own dignity and becoming a theif; also, the glory of God's sufficiency for you and your family has been denied, so God has been offended, which leads to the next paragraph.
"That caused by the evil."
What original suffering caused by the evil? Who suffers? God, or the one who sinned against him?
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis "so God has been offended"
Is that saying that God suffered? :P
Also, when I say suffering, I'm not talking about some abstract, oh my property rights have been violated, I meaning feeling, and physically suffering.
""That caused by the evil.""
When I said that, I wasn't referring to God, you've been switching it over to God, and each time I remind you, that why does 1 evil, repay another? 2 wrongs DON'T make a right, so I ask you again, how is revenge just.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
You don't think a person feels violated when his property is stolen?
It's not about God arbitrarily making the sinner suffer in return. It's that God CANNOT, by virtue of his very nature, be the one to suffer. Offense BRINGS suffering, but when God is offended the offender must suffer, since God, by virtue of the fact that he is God, cannot. Therefore, all offenders must suffer. It is a law of being. It's just the way it is.
Gotta call it a night for now. till' later,
Jonathan
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis "You don't think a person feels violated when his property is stolen?"
You're assuming that they find out... if 1 of 10,000 cobs go missing, do you think they'll even notice?
Unless they're counting, they won't notice.
As for God needing to torture his own creation infinitely, for an infinite time, for finite crimes, over a finite time, even assuming that suffering should be repaid with suffering, it's still unjust.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
Even if he never finds out, his suspicion that perhaps he is being stolen from causes him unnecessary grief. Also, your vexed conscience will trouble you.
1stly, it's not that suffering should be repaid with suffering; it's that offense always brings suffering, and so, in light of that, offenders (rather than those offended) should be the ones to suffer.
[cont.]
NomosCharis 1 year ago
Assuming that premise, people don't suffer forever because of a finite number of finite crimes. They suffer forever because they have committed an infinite crime deserving infinite punishment, and since they are finite beings of finite worth, they can never finish paying for what they've done.
To help us imagine this: suppose you kill a bee. Is that more or less serious than stealing from a man. Why the difference? Now imagine a man sinning against God. That's why hell exists.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis
A finite being, with finite abilities, acting over a finite time, CANNOT deserve infinite torture over an infinite time, even if they're only beings of finite worth.
Do the math
finite*finite*finite<infinite*infinite
Hell, even assuming that we could commit an infinite crime
finite*finite*infinite<infinite*infinite
Unless we're either infinite beings, or we have an infinite amount of time to commit infinitely evil crimes, then this isn't justice, it's malice.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
@NomosCharis "offenders (rather than those offended) should be the ones to suffer. "
AGREED, however, the word RATHER is the most important word, since all that means is, if instead, then yes, but it doesn't mean in addition to.
I would rather x then y, doesn't mean that if x then also y. So if I could stop a crime, by doing less than or equal to the amount of harm, then I would, but afterward, there is no point in harming anyone, or getting revenge.
This isn't justice.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
Even if we commit an infinite crime? Do you suppose that a being with finite resources can ever finish payment for a crime deserving infinite punishment? How would this happen?
If all wrong doing brings suffering, and wrong is done, then someone MUST suffer. Thus, if wrong is done to one who should not, or rather cannot suffer, then the wrong doer must suffer. Otherwise, it is the same as saying the action done was NOT wrong.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis
"Do you suppose that a being with finite resources can ever finish payment for a crime deserving infinite punishment?"
FAIL, the payment isn't done with the beings finite resources, unlike the crime... no the punishment is infinite, so the payment is infinite per time unit, and over an infinite amount of time... seriously, how hard is it to see, unless you don't care about seeing reality, and instead are stuck in the mindset which you've adopted.
Take care
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
It's not infinite per time unit. That's because no finite being is able to experience infinite suffering within any single moment of time (precisely because we are finite). Even if the suffering is unimaginably great, and greater than the being can withstand, at any one time a finite being can only suffer a finite amount. That's why it takes an infinite amount of time for us to pay our debt for crimes comitted against God.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis Alright, then that's the end of that logic branch, but now you still have the huge burden of showing how a finite being, over a finite time, could do any amount of things worthy in total, for said infinite punishment.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
I agree.
It's rather like this:
Assuming that God exists in the way the Bible claims, he is the only infinitely valuable and sovereign creator of everything (including us). We therefore owe him our perfect obedience (from his sovereignty), and our perfect love (from his value).
If we withold these from him, and instead give them to beings less worthy which have not made us, we insinuate that God is not of so great value and has no right to command us, and we thus dishonor him.
[cont.]
NomosCharis 1 year ago
Since God is the creator of all things, and is in fact infintely valueable, and has infinite right to our lives, we have dishonored the one who is worthy of infinite honor. We have treated the one of infinite worth as less worthy than finite things. We have said "No" to the one who has infinite right to our lives and our choices. This wrong must be paid for or else God would be agreeing with it and calling it "right," and God cannot deny his own value by valuing us more.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
[cont.]...
NomosCharis 1 year ago
...But, to dishonor the infinitely honorable is an infinite offense. To reject the infinitely valuable is an infinite wrong. The person who commits this act acquires infinite guilt. The reason for this is not in the action, but in the nature of the one against whom the action was committed, and the honor and love and obedience he deserved. Just like offending the President is more serious than offending a child.
A finite being committing this crime cannot ever make-up for his guilt.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
[cont.]
NomosCharis 1 year ago
He cannot ever pay his debt. He cannot ever make satisfaction for his crime. The criminal has a finite and now-deficient worth with which to pay it.
For instance: If it is true that we owe God perfect obedience, and we have even once been disobedient, how can we ever pay what we owe him now? Can we ever be perfectly obedient again once we have been disobedient?
By our sins therefore we have sold ourselves into slavery, and must pay forever to satisfy our debt.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
[cont.]
This of course can only be true of sins committed against God, and cannot be true of sins committed against any other being. Only God is infinitely worthy and infinitely honorable, and only God deserves absolute love and perfect obedience from anyone.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis
I call shenanigans. Values are subjective, period. We give value to things, nothing is valuable until we give it value, this is kind of obvious, LOL, wait. "God cannot deny his own value by valuing us more" ,so he loves himself infinitely more than he loves us? Wonderful, again, values aren't facts set in stone, they are values. "Love and obedience he deserved"...who decided this? Oh, he did? Oh ok, that makes sense. This is what makes him a tyrant and unworthy of love, isn't it?
MrOmniblast 1 year ago 7
@MrOmniblast
Secondly, I see that you are giving him "infinite" properties in certain sectors, but if he truly is infinite, then he'd have to be infinite everything, as good as he is evil, as angry as he is calm, etc. So infinite kindness, love, MERCY, selflessness etc, would be needed as well, none of these are displayed. "Love me, or else". Note, Love does not involve fear, love is not forced and there are to be no negative consequences to not loving someone, no matter who it is.
MrOmniblast 1 year ago 2
MrOmniblast,
The whole of this point rests on the assumption that God exists in the way the Bible claims.
Now, IF God does exist in that way, value is not relative to our subjective opinion or even God's. God is absolute value, and God exists necessarily--not because he chooses to exist but because his nature is to exist necessarily. So, God cannot choose to not value himself above all things any more than he can choose to not exist.
[cont.]
NomosCharis 1 year ago
For this reason, God does not "decide" that he deserves our perfect love. Nor does he "decide" that we owe him our unconditional obedience. He made us, so he owns us, sustains us, and has every right to command us. When we say "no," we deny his authority and withold from him what is his. It is wrong. That's just the way it is.
Yes, God is also infinite love, but he loves himself first, not us, and when we imply by our actions that we are more valuable than him he must uphold his honor.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis "the glory of God's sufficiency"
You've got to be kidding me, try telling that to the children who are receiving Gods greatest gift, and suffering to death from starvation... after all, isn't suffering good? Boy, God sure loves feeding those who already have too much food.
You're a sick fuck if you worship suffering, and think that anyone deserves to suffer, or more aptly, any newborn baby deserves to starve to death.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
I don't have time right now to answer all these points. Babies dying of starvation is a whole new question. If they all go immediately to heaven, no one would complain in the end. That's one possibility. Also, many of the reasons they suffer is because people don't care, so we should be quick to blame ourselves. I'll have to leave it at that for now. Please refrain from calling me names.
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis
"Babies dying of starvation is a whole new question. If they all go immediately to heaven, no one would complain in the end."
Why do babies automatically go to heaven, it sure as hell doesn't say that in the bible, and I've personally check many times. Babies haven't been forgiven for original sin, because they haven't accepted jesus right? Also, doesn't that give people motivation to murder babies... why let a soul risk hell? I would sacrifice my eternity if it meant that...
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
... the babies I killed would all go to heaven... what kind of selfish bastard would risk innocent souls to be tempted by satan, just for their own eternal bliss?
Of coarse I don't believe in any of that stuff, but now baby killers seem a little more justified by that theology.
Of coarse you could claim that those babies might have converted millions, but why not just kill millions of babies... I hope you get my point, and the flaw in that morality.
TheReasonWhyGuy 1 year ago
The Bible doesn't tell us that babies who di