Christian universalism does not state that there is no "hell" or Gehenna, only that divine punishment is finite and restorative in nature. The historic doctrine of universal reconciliation (apokatastasis) motivates Christians to evangelize because 1) the burden of having to defend an "endless conscious torment" understanding of divine justice to an unbeliever is removed, and 2) converts are much more likely to repent out of love of God and thankfulness for Christ, rather than out of mortal fear.
@ElasticGiraffe Nope. That's a bunch of crap. It gives the unrepentant a false sense of security and it's a lie. It's not a "historic doctrine" it's an old heresy. It started in Genesis 3. "Surely you won't die..."
First, I did not give a list of things Bell was correct or incorrect about, Only this sungle items, so you can't say what I give him credit for and not. Second, if you are the same as Rob Bell, then the comment would also apply to you, that's simple logic, sorry, that's life. Lastly, it doesn't matter how you "feel" it only matter if you are correct or incorrect, and that's the point. The "western" mind is a misnomer, what you mean is "logic" vs Mysticism. There are logical people in the east.
If there is no hell, then all Christian acts of love and self-sacrifice would be a total waste of time. All Christians should rather do all kinds of wicked things, kill, steal, commit adultery, forget all kinds of responsibilities. God is going to clean up the mess after all, so why not?
There are many problems with this picture. One of them is of course that if we are not responsible for our lives after all, God is just treating us as animals. Love would be impossible in that relationship.
I gotta tell you Greg, the background plus the nonsteady camera is throwing me off. You should pick a single spot for your nontheogical/critical thinking videos and then stick with it.
Hi again guys: Are the Jehovah’s Witness correct in their point of view because it thrusts them into knocking on doors more than any of us? Are we incorrect in our point of view because we don’t hit the streets as much as they do? No. That’s my point. Argue the point of view with scripture. And correct the author with good academic argument. I just don’t think that a point of view can be both correct AND incorrect. And if it’s incorrect, then there must be a scriptural basis to argue against it.
@yumyum999zz "I just don’t think that a point of view can be both correct AND incorrect."
I think that misstates the issue. There are a range of possibly accurate biblical interpretations determined by what is known historical fact and what is reasonable historical speculation based on those facts. In other words, many hard and fast doctrines are actually TBD.
My understanding, and I can't site the references, is that God has written his laws in peoples hearts and at the final judgement God will see you for how you have lived according to that law. So having heard the Way of Jesus and accepted him as your savior it will help you to live better and gain heaven, but those that never have or had a chance to hear the way will still have the ability to enter heaven based on how they lived according to God's Law.
Rob Bell’s points need to be crystal -clarified by him. His arguments need to be argued one-by-one and thoroughly. The outcomes of those arguments need to be communicated widely, without a doubt. His stance should not be won or lost based on how people will react; how it will encourage others or not. If he’s right, he’s right, if not, then communicate each failing.
e.g. Jesus spoke the truth regardless of the consequences, we should too. John 6: 53-57, 66.
@yumyum999zz Thanks for your comment. But I disagree. I believe Rob Bell's points are clear. You know what he is arguing and why. It isn't super academic and I think that's what you see missing, but it is intuitive. The book isn't no where near perfect, I'm just saying. Plus I disagree about him being right. It isn't about being right or wrong, it's about arguing a point, a point of view. I bet you he admits that he could be wrong on some or more of his points.
@yumyum999zz Rob Bell has one simple concern: just looking at it at face value, it just seems that the good news, is only good news for a very few amount of people, which ultimately isn't REALLY good news. Like the idea that most people are just created and then will burn forever in hell just doesn't seem, like a redemptive ending for humanity. It's just one eternal reality of suffering. Yes it's judgment, but Bell does have a point that, HEY, who knows, WHAT if they admit they're wrong in hell?
@yumyum999zz I'm just playin devil's advocate here. I have no doubt God is a fair and loving God, but I just think orthodoxy hasn't seen or understood the whole picture. Because the picture that we are giving ourselves is disconcerting.
Guys who make big bucks selling cheap grace will have to answer for their deeds -- and to fall into the hands of a living God as a false teacher... one shudders.
@nuts4knits I assume what you mean by cheap grace is basically, creating an easier scenario for ppl to get into heaven? My issue isn't whether or not people get to heaven, but whether or not everyone has a fair shot in getting there (like those who can't hear the gospel). They are doomed for eternity because of geography. I don't care how you splice or dice it, that isn't fair lol. Jesus was expensive, it certainly isn't cheap grace, and being the loving God that He is, I think there is more.
GUYS this is my ideal scenario! If this is what goes down, I'm OK with it! Ok, creation messed up, but God has a good purpose for it. Jesus comes to pay our sin penalty. Many hear the gospel, and many are saved, but, due to the ignorance of many, and the work of the Spirit on various ppl, Jesus attributes salvation to those who sought God through what they personally knew about God... they meet their savior in heaven. All who say NO to God, end up in hell. That is kosher lol.
No matter how you slice or dice it, if it is impossible for a person who hasn't heard the gospel to be fair, that IS NOT THE CHARACTER OF GOD. I've not heard an adequate answer from any Christian apologist.
Guys, I'm like Job. I know God can handle our questions. Job was like this, WHY THIS WHY THAT ETC... and God responded! With hundreds more questions lol, but he responded lovingly! I don't mind questioning God because He can handle it lol.
The message that I need the grace of Jesus Christ and need to live like him BECAUSE I do not want to go to hell is impeding on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
My motivation to love, serve, and be in relationship with Jesus is not to avoid a later judgement.
Why do I need hell to love God? Why do I need hell to tell others about the Cross?
Would you still follow Jesus if you were destined for hell anyways? And it's "bad" for the faith to decide hell isn't the point? The love of God is.
Rob's title is dead on. But the God he describes is not loving because he is not just. A truly loving God MUST be a just God and he WILL do something about evil. If not, he becomes the kind old grandfather in the sky who doesn't care what his children do. THAT is not love. That is neglect. My problem is that I am a sinner and deserve punishment. The good news is that someone else paid my penalty because a loving God is not only just, He is merciful as well.
@oneminuteartclass Ok well I admire your opinion, but I can't imagine a loving God creating people, letting a creation go haywire, who tries to save humanity through flimsy and crappy missionary efforts as millions die all the time without hearing the gospel. Is that a just God? Hey! I'm Christian, but I'm just making you think! I agree man, I'm a sinner and I need a savior too. BUT! I almost could care less about my own salvation when the God that saved me sends 95% of humans to hell.
@Limbsy I am sorry, but I do not understand what you are saying. It is MAN that made God's creation go haywire. It is OUR fault, not His. And what is unfair about punishing the guilty? It would be unfair NOT to punish those who deserve it. God has absolutely no responsibility to save anyone. Your reply seems to have a subtext of God's sending 'good' people to hell. God does not send good people to hell, only sinners.
@oneminuteartclass I agree, Man made God's creation go haywire, yes. But I already addressed the whole idea of "God has absolutely no responsibility to save anyone." That's just, sorry, a gross God, and not to mention, not the God of the Bible. God loved us so he sent Jesus, period. God isn't schizophrenic. Yeah I'm speaking harsh, because I have a very logical and heartfelt concern and most of my Christian brothers come up with petty and heartless arguments in return... it's frustrating.
@oneminuteartclass Either way, we all could be wrong, and we'll just have to wait and see. But I have no doubt God is a loving and just God. But people forget that God doesn't want to judge, He would prefer to show mercy and forgive, but as a last resort, He judges. God isn't like, OH YAY! TIME TO JUDGE! That's... masochistic. Even God's punishments are meant for correction. That is the correct way to interpret God's justice.
Well, as an Apologist at a non-denominational mega church, no one here is in an uproar about Bell, he is simply wrong. I have a friend from high school that is a well known unilateralist also, and sorry, friend, it is simply off the track. Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven. You need to decide if you are going to follow Jesus or Rob Bell because the messages are not the same, and they cannot both be right.
@ProfNewc Universalist you mean? Jesus and Rob Bell agree on more points than you give them credit for, seeing that Rob Bell is a fellow Christian that I highly admire and respect. Plus remember, Rob Bell is no different than I am. We are Christians who, God forgive us, feel a certain way, and voice our concerns. Rob Bell isn't speaking in a... THIS IS RIGHT! Language. He is just starting a conversation. He isn't dogmatic about it. The western mind craves certainty to its doom.
The truth of Jesus Christ can be harsh and inconvenient. God wants us to be with Him but we need to do some things. Grace / Salvation is front loaded yet we need to obey God's laws like the sabbath. If we love God and love our fellows as our selves then we need to go out a spread a message that is good yet rejected by our own sinful natures. Vigorously seeking God is relationships over religion so we must feed the sheep and suffer the rejections but keep struggling in love.
@rusty2029 I think the truth of Jesus Christ should be harsh and inconvenient for those who love to do evil, but not so for those who want hope. I don't believe that the message is wholly harsh and inconvenient for ALL people... since you've chosen those two specific words: harsh... inconvenient. Maybe sometimes its the latter when we want to do what WE want, but we know we shouldn't, but that's all I can think about...
@Limbsy I am speaking of the truth that Jesus is the only way to salvation. The great commission is a good news of salvation! But some would worry that because others are in prison they don't like the pardon that is freely given them. I hope you understand the problem with Rob Bell's book and the entailments of thinking there are many paths to salvation.
@InFaithThroughChrist This verse is true, however, many Christians use it against those like Rob Bell who do not have ANY SELFISH MOTIVE WHATSOEVER in advancing their opinions, and that is a FACT. He is simply concerned, period. Just because a Christian believes something different than orthodoxy doesn't mean that somehow we must have some selfish motive, that we are trying to gain a following, or that we are trying to get famous or something -- because that's simply ridiculous, and ignorant.
@Limbsy In today's soceity, usually those who have a problem with Christian teachings AREN'T CHRISTIAN. Most sects that I have seen today in Christendom don't create a new sect for selfish reasons -- they are simply theological disagreements. I mean, if someone said, ok, let's start a new Christianity, we can all have sex before marriage! Then YEAH, it would be obvious that there is a negative motive. I know that I'm talking a lot, but I beg any THINKING CHRISTIAN to give me a serious response.
@Limbsy Actually, there's good reason to think 2 Timothy could be a forgery. Canonized by mistake. It isn't one of the 7 undisputed letters of Paul. The problem is our churches don't tell us that because they want to treat us like children. I think Rob Bell has it wrong but I'm glad to see the non-denominational mega churches getting in an uproar about this.
@Limbsy Well, I think we would stop scripture punching each other if our churches would do a better job. It would be good if our church (those of us who confess Jesus as Lord) operated with the proper sense of humility.
You talk about how Rob Bell makes you uncomfortable lol. ORTHODOXY makes me uncomfortable lol. God's good news is that Jesus came to entrust us pathetic, weak, human beings of the eternal destiny of humanity? GIVE ME A BREAK! That should be God's job, and we are merely instruments (acceptable interpretation), and that most people are essentially born into eternal anguish. WAKE UP GUYS, NOT GOOD NEWS. I choose to believe there is something that I DON'T UNDERSTAND, but I won't succumb to blindness
I believe that A SHIP IS SINKING. This earth is full of people on a SINKING ship, and Jesus came to throw the saving measures, the way of escape, the life boat. Really, hell doesn't bother me as long as everyone gets an adequate chance. I think orthodoxy simplifies and systematizes things to the point where they are no longer relevant and we are confining God to mere human doctrine which I guarantee you is incomplete. 80% of Christians are uncomfortable with it, but don't admit it.
But God will have to comfort me in eternity and help explain to me how that is at all just. So many Christians are honest with how they feel and have the SAME objections. Yes, I believe in hell, but I personally find Anihillationism a comforting prospect. Because people didn't choose to come to this earth, and they somehow have a marvelous surprise of eternal torture. I'm not afraid to challenge orthodoxy, because I know that I have a soul and I have honest concerns, and I will voice them.
I believe in the Gospel, but I choose to believe that judgment day is going to be a peculiar day. I believe Jesus saves, and salvation can only be attributed to Jesus, but as hard as I try to believe that you must 1) Hear, 2) Understand (given all you're confusion and past), and finally, 3) Believe (given all the brainwashing you've incurred). How is that easy? How is that good news? Yes I believe, but I care about other people that's why I'm grieved. HEY MAYBE THATS HOW IT IS...
Greg, thanks for your ministry, but I will respond to the first question, in regards to how 'universalism' helps or hurts Christians to be involved in the Great Commission. I'm a Christian, but I'm a thinking Christian. Right off the bat, the Gospel is pessimism. God has entrusted us weaklings with the eternal destiny of people, and for that reason alone I feel little drive to be a missionary because, face it, there are those who don't hear the Gospel, no matter how hard we try...
Christian universalism does not state that there is no "hell" or Gehenna, only that divine punishment is finite and restorative in nature. The historic doctrine of universal reconciliation (apokatastasis) motivates Christians to evangelize because 1) the burden of having to defend an "endless conscious torment" understanding of divine justice to an unbeliever is removed, and 2) converts are much more likely to repent out of love of God and thankfulness for Christ, rather than out of mortal fear.
ElasticGiraffe 5 months ago
@ElasticGiraffe Nope. That's a bunch of crap. It gives the unrepentant a false sense of security and it's a lie. It's not a "historic doctrine" it's an old heresy. It started in Genesis 3. "Surely you won't die..."
gtrjunky 2 months ago
First, I did not give a list of things Bell was correct or incorrect about, Only this sungle items, so you can't say what I give him credit for and not. Second, if you are the same as Rob Bell, then the comment would also apply to you, that's simple logic, sorry, that's life. Lastly, it doesn't matter how you "feel" it only matter if you are correct or incorrect, and that's the point. The "western" mind is a misnomer, what you mean is "logic" vs Mysticism. There are logical people in the east.
ProfNewc 6 months ago
If there is no hell, then all Christian acts of love and self-sacrifice would be a total waste of time. All Christians should rather do all kinds of wicked things, kill, steal, commit adultery, forget all kinds of responsibilities. God is going to clean up the mess after all, so why not?
There are many problems with this picture. One of them is of course that if we are not responsible for our lives after all, God is just treating us as animals. Love would be impossible in that relationship.
MindTheHeart 8 months ago
This reminds me of the first Wretched TV episodes. It keeps me pay attention!
Canlander7 9 months ago
I gotta tell you Greg, the background plus the nonsteady camera is throwing me off. You should pick a single spot for your nontheogical/critical thinking videos and then stick with it.
MetalcoreChristian77 9 months ago
Hi again guys: Are the Jehovah’s Witness correct in their point of view because it thrusts them into knocking on doors more than any of us? Are we incorrect in our point of view because we don’t hit the streets as much as they do? No. That’s my point. Argue the point of view with scripture. And correct the author with good academic argument. I just don’t think that a point of view can be both correct AND incorrect. And if it’s incorrect, then there must be a scriptural basis to argue against it.
yumyum999zz 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@yumyum999zz "I just don’t think that a point of view can be both correct AND incorrect."
I think that misstates the issue. There are a range of possibly accurate biblical interpretations determined by what is known historical fact and what is reasonable historical speculation based on those facts. In other words, many hard and fast doctrines are actually TBD.
StormTrek 9 months ago
My understanding, and I can't site the references, is that God has written his laws in peoples hearts and at the final judgement God will see you for how you have lived according to that law. So having heard the Way of Jesus and accepted him as your savior it will help you to live better and gain heaven, but those that never have or had a chance to hear the way will still have the ability to enter heaven based on how they lived according to God's Law.
imkluu 9 months ago
Rob Bell’s points need to be crystal -clarified by him. His arguments need to be argued one-by-one and thoroughly. The outcomes of those arguments need to be communicated widely, without a doubt. His stance should not be won or lost based on how people will react; how it will encourage others or not. If he’s right, he’s right, if not, then communicate each failing.
e.g. Jesus spoke the truth regardless of the consequences, we should too. John 6: 53-57, 66.
yumyum999zz 9 months ago
@yumyum999zz Thanks for your comment. But I disagree. I believe Rob Bell's points are clear. You know what he is arguing and why. It isn't super academic and I think that's what you see missing, but it is intuitive. The book isn't no where near perfect, I'm just saying. Plus I disagree about him being right. It isn't about being right or wrong, it's about arguing a point, a point of view. I bet you he admits that he could be wrong on some or more of his points.
Limbsy 9 months ago
@yumyum999zz Rob Bell has one simple concern: just looking at it at face value, it just seems that the good news, is only good news for a very few amount of people, which ultimately isn't REALLY good news. Like the idea that most people are just created and then will burn forever in hell just doesn't seem, like a redemptive ending for humanity. It's just one eternal reality of suffering. Yes it's judgment, but Bell does have a point that, HEY, who knows, WHAT if they admit they're wrong in hell?
Limbsy 9 months ago
@yumyum999zz I'm just playin devil's advocate here. I have no doubt God is a fair and loving God, but I just think orthodoxy hasn't seen or understood the whole picture. Because the picture that we are giving ourselves is disconcerting.
Limbsy 9 months ago
Thanks for stepping up.
scooter17568 9 months ago
Guys who make big bucks selling cheap grace will have to answer for their deeds -- and to fall into the hands of a living God as a false teacher... one shudders.
nuts4knits 9 months ago
@nuts4knits I assume what you mean by cheap grace is basically, creating an easier scenario for ppl to get into heaven? My issue isn't whether or not people get to heaven, but whether or not everyone has a fair shot in getting there (like those who can't hear the gospel). They are doomed for eternity because of geography. I don't care how you splice or dice it, that isn't fair lol. Jesus was expensive, it certainly isn't cheap grace, and being the loving God that He is, I think there is more.
Limbsy 9 months ago
GUYS this is my ideal scenario! If this is what goes down, I'm OK with it! Ok, creation messed up, but God has a good purpose for it. Jesus comes to pay our sin penalty. Many hear the gospel, and many are saved, but, due to the ignorance of many, and the work of the Spirit on various ppl, Jesus attributes salvation to those who sought God through what they personally knew about God... they meet their savior in heaven. All who say NO to God, end up in hell. That is kosher lol.
Limbsy 9 months ago
No matter how you slice or dice it, if it is impossible for a person who hasn't heard the gospel to be fair, that IS NOT THE CHARACTER OF GOD. I've not heard an adequate answer from any Christian apologist.
Limbsy 9 months ago
Guys, I'm like Job. I know God can handle our questions. Job was like this, WHY THIS WHY THAT ETC... and God responded! With hundreds more questions lol, but he responded lovingly! I don't mind questioning God because He can handle it lol.
Limbsy 9 months ago
The message that I need the grace of Jesus Christ and need to live like him BECAUSE I do not want to go to hell is impeding on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
My motivation to love, serve, and be in relationship with Jesus is not to avoid a later judgement.
Why do I need hell to love God? Why do I need hell to tell others about the Cross?
Would you still follow Jesus if you were destined for hell anyways? And it's "bad" for the faith to decide hell isn't the point? The love of God is.
sluggger5 9 months ago
@sluggger5 Where do you find any of this in scripture? I'm curious.
SeraphsWitness 9 months ago
Rob's title is dead on. But the God he describes is not loving because he is not just. A truly loving God MUST be a just God and he WILL do something about evil. If not, he becomes the kind old grandfather in the sky who doesn't care what his children do. THAT is not love. That is neglect. My problem is that I am a sinner and deserve punishment. The good news is that someone else paid my penalty because a loving God is not only just, He is merciful as well.
oneminuteartclass 9 months ago
@oneminuteartclass Ok well I admire your opinion, but I can't imagine a loving God creating people, letting a creation go haywire, who tries to save humanity through flimsy and crappy missionary efforts as millions die all the time without hearing the gospel. Is that a just God? Hey! I'm Christian, but I'm just making you think! I agree man, I'm a sinner and I need a savior too. BUT! I almost could care less about my own salvation when the God that saved me sends 95% of humans to hell.
Limbsy 9 months ago
@Limbsy I am sorry, but I do not understand what you are saying. It is MAN that made God's creation go haywire. It is OUR fault, not His. And what is unfair about punishing the guilty? It would be unfair NOT to punish those who deserve it. God has absolutely no responsibility to save anyone. Your reply seems to have a subtext of God's sending 'good' people to hell. God does not send good people to hell, only sinners.
oneminuteartclass 9 months ago
@oneminuteartclass Good point onemin, If God didn't punish those who rebelled against him, then he wouldn't be a God of justice either.
pretoshohmoofc 9 months ago
@oneminuteartclass
(1) "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image'" - Genesis 1:26
(2) Fall?
(3) "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us'" - Genesis 3:22
I don't think a fall fits in the story. Sounds like God is doing exactly what he intended to do.
StormTrek 9 months ago
@oneminuteartclass I agree, Man made God's creation go haywire, yes. But I already addressed the whole idea of "God has absolutely no responsibility to save anyone." That's just, sorry, a gross God, and not to mention, not the God of the Bible. God loved us so he sent Jesus, period. God isn't schizophrenic. Yeah I'm speaking harsh, because I have a very logical and heartfelt concern and most of my Christian brothers come up with petty and heartless arguments in return... it's frustrating.
Limbsy 9 months ago
@oneminuteartclass Either way, we all could be wrong, and we'll just have to wait and see. But I have no doubt God is a loving and just God. But people forget that God doesn't want to judge, He would prefer to show mercy and forgive, but as a last resort, He judges. God isn't like, OH YAY! TIME TO JUDGE! That's... masochistic. Even God's punishments are meant for correction. That is the correct way to interpret God's justice.
Limbsy 9 months ago
Well, as an Apologist at a non-denominational mega church, no one here is in an uproar about Bell, he is simply wrong. I have a friend from high school that is a well known unilateralist also, and sorry, friend, it is simply off the track. Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven. You need to decide if you are going to follow Jesus or Rob Bell because the messages are not the same, and they cannot both be right.
ProfNewc 9 months ago
@ProfNewc Universalist you mean? Jesus and Rob Bell agree on more points than you give them credit for, seeing that Rob Bell is a fellow Christian that I highly admire and respect. Plus remember, Rob Bell is no different than I am. We are Christians who, God forgive us, feel a certain way, and voice our concerns. Rob Bell isn't speaking in a... THIS IS RIGHT! Language. He is just starting a conversation. He isn't dogmatic about it. The western mind craves certainty to its doom.
Limbsy 9 months ago
The truth of Jesus Christ can be harsh and inconvenient. God wants us to be with Him but we need to do some things. Grace / Salvation is front loaded yet we need to obey God's laws like the sabbath. If we love God and love our fellows as our selves then we need to go out a spread a message that is good yet rejected by our own sinful natures. Vigorously seeking God is relationships over religion so we must feed the sheep and suffer the rejections but keep struggling in love.
rusty2029 9 months ago
@rusty2029 I think the truth of Jesus Christ should be harsh and inconvenient for those who love to do evil, but not so for those who want hope. I don't believe that the message is wholly harsh and inconvenient for ALL people... since you've chosen those two specific words: harsh... inconvenient. Maybe sometimes its the latter when we want to do what WE want, but we know we shouldn't, but that's all I can think about...
Limbsy 9 months ago
@Limbsy I am speaking of the truth that Jesus is the only way to salvation. The great commission is a good news of salvation! But some would worry that because others are in prison they don't like the pardon that is freely given them. I hope you understand the problem with Rob Bell's book and the entailments of thinking there are many paths to salvation.
rusty2029 9 months ago
2 Timothy 4:1-5
InFaithThroughChrist 9 months ago
@InFaithThroughChrist This verse is true, however, many Christians use it against those like Rob Bell who do not have ANY SELFISH MOTIVE WHATSOEVER in advancing their opinions, and that is a FACT. He is simply concerned, period. Just because a Christian believes something different than orthodoxy doesn't mean that somehow we must have some selfish motive, that we are trying to gain a following, or that we are trying to get famous or something -- because that's simply ridiculous, and ignorant.
Limbsy 9 months ago
@Limbsy In today's soceity, usually those who have a problem with Christian teachings AREN'T CHRISTIAN. Most sects that I have seen today in Christendom don't create a new sect for selfish reasons -- they are simply theological disagreements. I mean, if someone said, ok, let's start a new Christianity, we can all have sex before marriage! Then YEAH, it would be obvious that there is a negative motive. I know that I'm talking a lot, but I beg any THINKING CHRISTIAN to give me a serious response.
Limbsy 9 months ago
@Limbsy Actually, there's good reason to think 2 Timothy could be a forgery. Canonized by mistake. It isn't one of the 7 undisputed letters of Paul. The problem is our churches don't tell us that because they want to treat us like children. I think Rob Bell has it wrong but I'm glad to see the non-denominational mega churches getting in an uproar about this.
StormTrek 9 months ago
@StormTrek Hmm... go on... what's the significance of this?
Limbsy 9 months ago
@Limbsy Well, I think we would stop scripture punching each other if our churches would do a better job. It would be good if our church (those of us who confess Jesus as Lord) operated with the proper sense of humility.
StormTrek 9 months ago
@StormTrek Yeah there are churches who do a better job than others.
Limbsy 9 months ago
You talk about how Rob Bell makes you uncomfortable lol. ORTHODOXY makes me uncomfortable lol. God's good news is that Jesus came to entrust us pathetic, weak, human beings of the eternal destiny of humanity? GIVE ME A BREAK! That should be God's job, and we are merely instruments (acceptable interpretation), and that most people are essentially born into eternal anguish. WAKE UP GUYS, NOT GOOD NEWS. I choose to believe there is something that I DON'T UNDERSTAND, but I won't succumb to blindness
Limbsy 9 months ago
I believe that A SHIP IS SINKING. This earth is full of people on a SINKING ship, and Jesus came to throw the saving measures, the way of escape, the life boat. Really, hell doesn't bother me as long as everyone gets an adequate chance. I think orthodoxy simplifies and systematizes things to the point where they are no longer relevant and we are confining God to mere human doctrine which I guarantee you is incomplete. 80% of Christians are uncomfortable with it, but don't admit it.
Limbsy 9 months ago
But God will have to comfort me in eternity and help explain to me how that is at all just. So many Christians are honest with how they feel and have the SAME objections. Yes, I believe in hell, but I personally find Anihillationism a comforting prospect. Because people didn't choose to come to this earth, and they somehow have a marvelous surprise of eternal torture. I'm not afraid to challenge orthodoxy, because I know that I have a soul and I have honest concerns, and I will voice them.
Limbsy 9 months ago
I believe in the Gospel, but I choose to believe that judgment day is going to be a peculiar day. I believe Jesus saves, and salvation can only be attributed to Jesus, but as hard as I try to believe that you must 1) Hear, 2) Understand (given all you're confusion and past), and finally, 3) Believe (given all the brainwashing you've incurred). How is that easy? How is that good news? Yes I believe, but I care about other people that's why I'm grieved. HEY MAYBE THATS HOW IT IS...
Limbsy 9 months ago
Greg, thanks for your ministry, but I will respond to the first question, in regards to how 'universalism' helps or hurts Christians to be involved in the Great Commission. I'm a Christian, but I'm a thinking Christian. Right off the bat, the Gospel is pessimism. God has entrusted us weaklings with the eternal destiny of people, and for that reason alone I feel little drive to be a missionary because, face it, there are those who don't hear the Gospel, no matter how hard we try...
Limbsy 9 months ago
yea I'm pretty pissed as well
Hordeofantestor 9 months ago