Wake up people!!! We are falling away from gods laws and being deceived by Satan. We are accepting sin as being good. We are ripening for destruction. The ax is laid at the tree unless we wake up and repent. Stop justifying sin.
@jawjww Wake up dingbat, you really don't know your butt from a hole in the ground regarding the Bible and especially what Jesus taught regarding homosexuality. He said absolutely NOTHING about the subject. You act like you can fill in the vacuum where He left off and fill it in with your self-righteous tripe. Jesus had plenty to say about Pharisees though. He also had plenty to say about love and same gender couples who wish to get married is about love.
The blood of gay members' shame, guilt, pain, and suicides is on this man's hands and the other authorities. How pathetic! Not only are his arguments easily debunked and plain ignorant but Mormons actually buy this bigotry and spread it about. This makes me sick to my stomach!!
He talks about the Plan of Happiness. Yet Utah has the highest use of anti-depressants in the US. This is because the Mormon "Plan of Happiness" makes people miserable.
Thirty years ago, Bednar would have been using the same arguments against giving blacks equal rights - his predecessors certainly did. Growing up in the church in the 70s, I was taught all kinds of racist filth, using the same kinds of twisted justification that Bednar is doing.
@drinkswithnedkelly This is the saddest thing about this religion. These men cannot look in the mirror and see the mistakes they have made and the ones that they continue to make against gay and lesbian Latter-day Saints. The Church's response to the Prop 8 issue has resulted in far too many broken families and far too many divisions and pain. The Church leaders typically just don't get it.
To learn about an informative movie on Proposition 8, watch the YouTube video:
"Have Mormons Learned? — ReThink Interview: Linda Stay & Fred Karger from 8: THE MORMON PROPOSITION" by jsjkim
Everyone concerned about human rights and freedom in America should watch "8: The Mormon Proposition." You can find the DVD on-line at Amazon, TLA Video and Deep Discount DVD. Buy it and watch it. To do even more good, after you watch it, donate it to your local library.
Marriage is a sacred relationship between a man and a woman.
Unless of course you are Joseph's Myth or Breedem Young. In which case marriage is between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and some teenage girls.
I feel sorry for Bednar. He no doubt is a true believer. In his public appearances after being called as an Apostle in 2004, he was visibly sullen. He no doubt truly believed that his special office would afford him a face-to-face interview with the risen Christ. Reality sucks. But...no doubt the bretheren finally got Bednar to either feel ashamed for thinking that way or they convinced him that warm fuzzy feeling and group think are as good as a personal visitation from God. Jeeezus H.
well if health class is part of the california school curriculum, wouldnt students be required to study and be taught that traditional and gay marriage are equal?
@thomasadamnelson They would probably only be required to answer questions about it and state that it was legal in California and elsewhere. Mostly they would likely take a small section of time to help make the class aware that same sex marriage always amounts to a minority of couples and thus these people (being unusual and different) need to be treated with respect and kindness. That's likely the extent of the discussion on the issue.
@thomasadamnelson Apparently he told my friend that there was a low tolerance policy for people having "issues" and that for everyone that wasn't strong enough there were plenty of others willing to take their place as students. There was perhaps some bias in my friend's story...he himself was ex'd years after he told me that story, and I always though a university based around religion was recipe for disaster, but notions like that stick with someone. I still cringe when I hear Elder Bednar.
@micfishevyt BYU has a long and sad history of LGBT witch hunts. Your friends story is very likely true. Back in the 70's and even early 80's BYU's honor code enforcement people used to go to Salt Lake and take down license plate numbers (and even take photos) of students who happened to be parked at gay bars so they could turn them in and start disciplinary proceedings. These people were notorious for setting up sting operations in BYU restrooms to catch gay men who might be cruising for men
@Rockymtntruth Honestly I don't know, although my friend never spoke to or of anyone in a mean spirited way. I am very familiar with what had gone on at BYU in earlier days with homosexual students-I wrote a 40 page paper for an anthropology class on that. But what it all boils down to is that the BYUs want to get rid of all but the best in their eyes--for things that don't even have to do anything with academics. They are blacklisted by the American Assoc of University Professors.
@micfishevyt "They are blacklisted by the American Assoc of University Professors." I've heard about that. Any institution of higher learning who punishes professors and students for intellectual questioning and criticism definitely has some serious issues.
Bednar says that certain things could happen in the future if people vote no on prop 8. This guy says that those things will not happen or are very unlikely:
'This is absurd'
'He's about to say something wild and crazy'
'OK, this is bordering on paranoia'
I am not a political expert, but I think it is presumptuous to say that someone's ideas about the future are absurd, wild, crazy, etc. on such a topic. History has taught us that changing political policies has unpredictable outcomes.
You can decide your morality, but God decides the standards... Im just saying. Elder Bednar is amazing. Chill out, democracy won. just because it ended up in a way you didnt want it to thats just the way it is. ( I voted for a strong government in the UK, we got a hung parliament... democracy won, but a lot of people arent happy. Tough times)
Really? Cool. God is telling me that the Mormon church was wrong to organize and help to pass Prop 8. God's also telling me that the Mormons don't have respect for civil rights for gays, likely because Mormons think that gays aren't as good as other people. God's telling me that the Mormon church is wrong on this.
@philloynes The main reason the Church has been involved in this issue since 1995 is because they know that when society changes dramatically in this area that they will be left in the past and will look like fools and bigots for their stand on the issue. Can you imagine what it will be like years down the road when marriage equality is here and most people feel that being homophobic is bigoted and wrong? How will that leave the Mormon Church? They'll definitely be in a major quandary.
@philloynes Actually "democracy" did not win in this case as it is very much up for debate as to whether that vote was even authentic democracy. When a homophobic majority votes to take away rights from a minority that is not true democracy. That is tyranny and a Federal judge has overturned prop 8. We will see how the Supreme Court decides this issue. Another Federal Judge just ruled Don't Ask Don't Tell as unconstitutional. The precedence is being strongly established in favor of equality
With a heavy heart, I have returned to watch this video on Conference weekend. The LDS Church is supposed to be the only Living church in the world, yet it has been consistently slow, late or failed completely to lead the people of this world in any positive directions FORWARD. I remember when the Church fought against the Equal Rights Amendment, and now I see Mormon leaders (many of whom are the same) extolling the virtues of things brought about from the ERA. Where's the disconnect?
Same thing goes for Blacks and the Priesthood.Reconcile it all you like in yourself with "God must think they weren't ready yet.", but the Church didn't come to terms with that issue until 1978. You may not like the commentary blurbs on this video pointing that out, but a 'Living' Church would've been ahead of the game. Of course, you can say that was only McConkie's wrong opinion, but doesn't that leave the door open for Bednar and other apostles to have the wrong opinion?
I went to BYU and I studied to be a marital therapist there. My hunger for knowledge, wisdom and understanding led me to research homosexuality. It is normal! It happens in other animals the world over with great consistency. So what should I believe? The thousands of miraculous creations of God that I witness engaging in homosexuality, or what other people tell me God says is so?
Finally I didn't like seeing the backlash the Mormons received from some of the Anti 8 community. I know you were angry but don't you know by attacking someone generally only causes them to entrench themselves further? Hardline evangelicals and the Christian Right were on the sidelines laughing their butts off at it all. They got the Mormons to do their dirty work and take all the blame. In their greatest dreams, they would've given you all knives and had you run at each other.
Additionally, none of these "prepared" cult members in the video seemed to ask the question about churches that WILL marry gay couples. What about THEIR religious "freedoms?" Aren't their freedoms being violated by the impositon of the "LDS" doctrine on all churches? That's NOT freedom...
@medgirl123 um, I don't need to "sound" smart, I AM smart. I have a Ph D, and have taught at four major universities from New York City to San Francisco. AND, I can spell. You CANNOT spell. So, I'll leave it to our viewers to decide who is smart... You just got OWNED....
@medgirl123 I don't think it even matters that you have degrees and have taught all over the states, I have degrees too, You still didn't answer my question. But somehow I really don't feel like you OWNED me... since when is that the point. I was pointing out how your comment didn't make sense. I find it sad how debate turns so quickly to cheap jabs at simple spelling errors, instead of engaging in actual ideas.
@medgirl123 People who are typically arrogant (religious arrogance is one of the worst of all) use that term "OWNED" in a way that sounds like they have conquered someone. It tells us far more about the person using the word than it does about the person who is supposedly "owned".
This video is excellent at showing how these cult members use typical "talking points" that have little to do with the real world. The "religious freedoms" argument is the lamest of the lame. The New Jersey case that they like to cite is bogus. It was a JEWISH lesbian couple that wanted to use a METHODIST public space, they were NOT asking to be married in a Methodist church. Why would they want that, since they are JEWISH? Hilarious....
oedipusvv ..I also know of couples in Vermont and other areas across our great nation that have been together for decades and even raising children. The love that is there cannot be denied. This is a mystery that is very difficult for people steeped in a certain religious mindset. It's excruciatingly difficult unless they drop their fears and start to open their minds and hearts and listen with love.
I agree that it's saddening to see the excuses people come up with for opposing same-sex marriage. It's rarely to do with reason, and moslty to do with emotion.
Few people are willing to compromise the old values they have learned and taught themselves to the point that their identity is intertwined with them, and the movements that prescribe them. Those who are open minded and come off the defensive take a big step are truly courageous.
Marriage is Ordained of God between a man and a women, when the church accepts gay "marriage " it accepts all the consequences "ripples" that comes from that decision. oh and those gay grandchildren that he will by genetics probably have will have a difficult task to over come but threw the atonement nothing is impossible. I think that gays wont get marriage they will get civil unions. im not saying I approve of that or disapprove the concept with out details of what civil union is
oedipusvv it is celestial marriage that is ordained of God according to what I've read in LDS history. Civil marriages are what people make of them. Some are like the crazy ones that happen at a Vegas drive-in yet can turn out to be amazing. Others can happen in a very religious place and can go down hill and end in bitter divorce with children suffering as a result.
Some of those marriages which go down hill can be "eternal" temple marriages, which makes these Mormon happy families just as fallible as any other.
These Mormons (and other Christians) talk about marriage being ordained of God, but never of Community being ordained of God. It excuses them from being such bad neighbours towards their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, which is truly tragic.
timonline2000 you're right on about community. Mormons have all but forgotten what it means to be community builders. I read a wonderful book edited and produced by Terry Tempest Williams entitled New Genesis: A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. Every Mormon should read that book along with Dr. Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. That book is also another book that is very all encompassing about one of the hallmarks and wonderful traits of Mormon the LDS past the history of community building
@timonline2000 this whole thing is tragic, humans are prone to error and all manner of evil and stupidness. On every side of prop 8 - everyone loves to mask their own crappy lives by pointing out scapegoats. We may have personal values but I agree why should that stop anyone from being teated with respect and friendship regardless of their choices. And can everyone stop using absolutes and generalizations - nothing screams ignorance and stupidity
very dishonest in nature? lol - those who actually know me in real life would laugh at that statement.
matter of fact I'd be wililng to wager one of the problems you have with my posts is I am willing to honestly speak my mind, and not beat around the bush.
There still tends to be a "persecution complex" and victim mentality in the LDS culture. Some LDS people (I say some because several LDS are supportive of LGBT equality) will say that gay people have a persecution or victim mentality. When you have been treated as pariah's, killed, vilified and demonized for far too long you might get pretty angry at those who tend to start the persecution and demonizing. The LDS Church has not been persecuted like Wookie says for over 100 plus years.
don't flatter yourself with this persecution complex.
you don't think this persuction still exists? search some youtube videos, and open your eyes. we still have missionaries killed because of who they are, and famlies kick members out for joining the church.
if you think the persecution is gone you are blind.
it is not a 'complex' it is reality, and still happens. I don't really have a problem with it I know in whom I trust. persecution is a small thing, and but a moment.
Note that persecution does not mean "any comment that flows short of glowing praise, and may be seen to question a person or organisation's view of things". That's most Mormons' view of persecution. Wait until the police beat you up, torture you, and close down your meeting houses. Wait until the police or army drive you and your family out of your "home of peace" ranch in Wyoming, or you're fired from your job for your religious affiliation. Then I'll accept that Mormons are persecuted.
No. If you read my post then the dictionary is correct. It's your own - and the general LDS - definition that isn't , so don't pretend you follow the dictionary's description of persecution.
so men like Ed Decker who have caused our churches to be bombed (hundreds of thousands of dollars), missionaries to be killed etc etc do not count as persecution?
all these other organizations literally put together with the goal of overthrowing the church is not persecution? the people that picket our temples, and destroy our property are not perseuction?
those are PRECISELY in harmony with the definition the dictionary gave.
So how does that make you different to all the other Churches around, where attacks, verbal and physical, planned and spontaneous, happen daily all over the world? What marks persecution against Mormons out from other Christians or religious groups? The LDS Church has never had it so good in media or society, yet you still can't help yourselves and you have to play the persecution card.
and yet lies from one Ed Decker telling South America our missionaries are CIA agents has cost us lives, and several hundreds of thousands of dollars.
so what, you grade persecution on a scale of 1-10, and decide what you qualifies?
I'm not going to discuss 'persecution' with you anymore. you obviously don't have a clue, and while you claim I won't open my eyes you are clearly blinded here.
solowookie obviously has an extremely narrow view about persecution. "oh no the anti-Mormon christian Evangelicals are out to do us in." Most people on here don't have a clue about Ed Decker nor do they even give a rats ass about who the guy is.
and how / why do you think you know my 'complete' view on persecution? what basis do you have to even make the statement you did about me being narrow minded in my view of persecution?
so do you deviate from the dictionary also, and make up your own opinions about what qualifies?
Some Mormons some how think that questioning of their beliefs puts them in some special league of persecution, regardless of how many monks in Burma are being tortured, or how many other churches, mosques or synagogues are being firebombed.
People might not like Mormons in Wookie's country, but he can at least expect a fair hearing in court if he loses his job for being a Mormon, more than a religious person could get in China.
Wookie you don't have to convince the world that your "sins" are "righteous actions". Some people in the world think that the fact that you are a Mormon is sinful. Others think that since you are not a Muslim you are part of the Infidels. All of that is outside stuff. What matters is how you feel about you inside. If you can tell the difference between the voice of God, the voice of friends, family, church leaders, etc. That's when miracles happen. The heart is where the action is.
when are sins rightous actions? sins are NEVER rightous actions - hence the fact they are called SINS.
the heart is where the action is? it takes more then heart FYI... we won't be judged on heart on the other side. we will be judged on our thoughts, deeds, and actions.
Gay people have been treated terribly by Christianity in general (with few exceptions) throughout history. Gay people were tortured & burned at the stake during the medieval period. Gay people themselves who were Christians often hated themselves and beat themselves up terribly with inner shame and fear. This inner conflict all too often comes out in terrible and twisted ways and sometimes ends in suicide. This happens today as well. Fear and love are polar opposites. Jesus taught love.
Jesus was intensely concerned with society in His time mortal time. He despised the bigotry of the Pharisees who's self-righteousness and haute piety caused them to completely miss the mark of charity and authentic love that the Gospel was all about. Jesus was a revolutionary activist in His outspoken words to those like the money changers in the Temple and toward the Pharisees who were constantly hounding Him.
There is a church that believes Matt Shepherd is in hell and want to put a big monument up in a Government owned park in Casper, Wyoming that with a Scripture from Leviticus to back up their statement. Does their "lifestyle" that is the expression of their belief system harm our society? They also picket funerals of our fallen heroes who come back from Iraq and Afghanistan stating that the acceptance of gays by our nation has brought these deaths. Does their "lifestyle" harm society?
BTW I can and have accepted who I am. The reason I asked you the question "why can't I accept who I am?, etc." is because of what you asked me. "I can accept who I am why can't you accept who you are?" I simply asked what you meant by that.
When you say "they know what they are doing is wrong" (gay couples who are committed to one another) then you must have some pretty conflicted gay friends who feel ashamed of their lives. My friends and family who are gay embrace themselves and their lives as whole and healthy not as an "unhealthy lifestyle"
Also "solowookie" the terminology "lifestyle" is a typical political buzzword that has very negative even bigoted connotations. I am a gay man who has a very diverse "lifestyle" as an estate planner who is taking care of my mother and who established 2 political actions committees for the protection of the environment. I have an outdoor lifestyle because I love the mountains, skiing, mt. biking and white water rafting. That's a great lifestyle.
In addition, in a letter to legislative leaders, NAACP national board chair Julian Bond and President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous urged passage of SR 7 and companion resolution HR 5 (Ammiano)
Last week Equality California brought close to 1,000 volunteers from across the state to Sacramento to meet with legislators and staff, urging them to support SR 7 and HR 5, which passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Feb. 17th. Both resolutions could be headed for a floor vote as early as Thursday.
The Senate Judiciary Committee passed Senate Resolution 7 (Leno) today, which would put the legislature on record as opposing Prop. 8 as an illegal revision to the California Constitution.
The law of Christ is to be given through the principle of free agency and never through compulsion. Read D&C 121. That is a powerful indictment of those who think they can use compulsion over the children of men. D&C 121 is an indictment of prop 8.
don't give me an entire chapter give specific versus.
if you read the parts I believe you are talking about it is laying sin to those who have not sinned. those here are blatantly proclaiming these actions, and laying those sins to themselves. I'm just disagreeing with the fact they feel their actions are justified / righteous.
Why not an entire chapter? That's how scripture was read and interpreted before mass literacy i.e. in Christ's time (even in J Smith's time too). You can take an individual verse and make it mean whatever you want it to, just as millions have done before you, and will continue to do. Some of them even claim to have the "spirit" with them, just like you do.
if a person does not have the spirit with them they will not interpret the scriptures correctly...
if you were to give me specific versus I would still read the whole... it would still accomplish your designs. however, the reluctance to do so give me more of an idea that not even you have it narrowed down to what you are looking for.
brainwashed? if read the scriptures, and study them at all this statement is ABUNDANTLY clear.
if brainwashed means I attempt to keep a close relationship with the spirit, my Saviouir, and my Heavenly Father then I am guilty as charged.
if it means that I actually try to understand the scriptures through the spirit, as the scriptures tell us we must do to understand them, again I am guilty of charged.
if this means I use the interpretations of the spirit rather then mans again guilty.
Do you believe that polygamous marriages (like you read in D&C 132) were also included as a place where one could find immense happiness and joy at least in the LDS Church up through the 2nd Manifesto? This is obviously another kind of marriage and they were performed in the Temple for eternity.
I'm not even sure how this is even a question of consideration you know what I believe regarding this if I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.
and I know where you are going with that questionas you laid it out. however that is not what the scriptures tell us. polygamy was practiced from the beginning at certain times, but homosexuality was never ok.
You obviously don't understand the legal limitations of settling for a domestic partnership. Study up on the legal issues here and then you'll understand the full picture.
You know I am very glad that this video was posted on YouTube because it just lays the facts out very clearly about how the LDS leadership is formulating their arguments and teaching them to young impressionable minds. This video exposes these arguments for the world to view and I guarantee most are pretty appalled at what they are seeing.
If anyone ever gets the opportunity to read the book by Dr. Michael Quinn entitled "Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century Americans: A Mormon Example" please go to Amazon and secure a copy. It explains the history of the LDS church and its evolving policies toward gay people. It is a fascinating window into the past and how the McCarthy politics and Freudian psychological theories also influenced LDS policy toward gay people. That is how "shock therapy" found its place at BYU too.
Well then that should apply to you as well. If you are in love with someone you don't need a piece of paper to prove it either. Just go put on a CTR ring and pretend it's a wedding ring. Get real and stop the selfish self-righteousness.
when I married I would settle for nothing short of an eternal marriage on that was performed with the proper authority to be effective for time and eternity of me & my wife live up to that covenant.
what I have with my wife is much greater then that piece of paper when I've entered a covenant with Christ, and my wife.
Part of me is disturbed that you would come on this site and brag like you have about something that is so personal. My parents would never have done this in an open forum like this. Like the quietness of the temple they let their lives be a silent witness of their love for one another. My late father would never have gotten involved in the prop 8 thing. He would have put it in God's hands and would never have judged me or anyone else. I think that is what bugs me most with you.
I am not your parents. I do let my life stand as a witness, and you are the one that brought it up in the first place.
now that you attack what is sacred you can't handle the response / answer I find that quite interesting, and hypocritical.
I do not feel compelled for any reason to let others incorrectly state on so public of a stage tolerance for homosexuality. tolerance for the sinner, absolutely, tolerance for the sin, absolutely not.
So how do you tolerate the sinner without tolerating the sin? Do you lie to your children by concealing the the fact that same sex relationships exist and can even thrive? Same-sex relationships are not a doctrine, they're a real existing phenomenon that you cannot control.
No adoption agency that is a religious and private organization has to close because it will not adopt to same sex couples. Gay couples have other agencies that they can go to. This fear-based rhetoric that churches will be forced to perform marriages and adoptions they do not believe in is a lie and what is fueling a lot of this anger and rancor regarding prop 8. It's ludicrous and it's got to stop. The truth gets lost in this rhetoric because it is so fear-based.
Indeed, any (Catholic) adoption agencies that have closed have CHOSEN to do so. It is the worst possible open, when they could either stay open and accept offers from LGBT adults, or find other ways of serving children in line with their beliefs.
Just knock and you will be changed from gay to straight. Never mind the tens of thousands of gay LDS who have knocked and knocked and knocked but nothing changed. Never mind those gay LDS who did everything for decades yet nothing changed and some even took their own lives because their depression became clinical. Never mind those who have received an peace assured answer from the Spirit (that their gay orientation is a God given gift) far different than the one Solowookie would approve of.
that their orientation is a God given gift? yea, thats why Sodom and Gamorah was destroyed because that is a rightous act supported by the Holy Ghost.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. it was wrong 2k years ago, and before that it is still wrong today.
it is never possible to make blanket statements like that, and presume they apply to every situation.
believe it or not everybody doesn't broadcast their personal lives to the world.
That's a little ironic, responding to a comment about Jews by talking about "PIG-headed".
From what you have written on here, your theology is MORE dogmatic than that of a strictly-Orthodox Jew. All word, all patriarchal, all repression, no spirit. The difference between you and Orthodox Jews is that you show NO humanity towards those who are different.
so where is the part you have focused on the fact that you force your values of sin / no sin on society, and expect them to accept it?
I have never been prejudice towards a gay person, but that does not mean I have to be tolerant of anybodies sin that affects my life. you publicizing your sins affect my life when you expect others to accept it as something that is not sin.
BTW why don't you go to Sister Carol Lynn Pearson's website called nomoregoodbyes (look it up) and learn about a woman who has truly been through the sanctifying fire of experience. A woman who loves mercy and has been so unconditional in her love for her late husband, family and friends that is is absolutely incredible. She has a Ghandi like spirit about her. She knows far more about homosexual issues than the vast majority of people I have talked with including church leaders.
so here you go judging me about whether or not I have been through a 'sanctification' process...
I enjoy reading any such stories. I will look it up as well as the other one you mentioned.
so at what point do you stop judging me? at what point am I allowed to follow my own beliefs and convictions? at what point do you even turn the conversation to GIVE IT A CHANCE to talk about tolerance for a sinner rather then a sin?
you are unrelenting others must accept your sin and that is wrong
Oh boy. Cool beans about looking those up. They are good stories. I think we need to stop calling people sinners (the original Greek actually means to miss the mark like a bowman would miss the bullseye) the old mote and beam scenerio and start pointing out the positive. I have a very personal faith and belief regarding the old sin/sinner and salvation issue. I will only suffice it to say that I believe what Origen and Clement of Alexandria taught in the 3rd century regarding salvation.
stop calling people sinner? it is a reality WE ARE ALL SINNERS! (yes that includes me)
I think this realization is a first step in truly finding power of deliverance from our sins as you choose to follow the Saviour, and grow in faith hope an charity.
Yep we are all in the same boat. We are all mortal and subject to physical death as well as making mistakes that hurt others and harm ourselves in one way or another. Remember by their fruits shall ye know them. Look at the outcome of people's relationships. I know of two men who have been together for over 50 years in Los Angeles, CA. I had a Stake President who I told about these guys and he said "now that's a relationship."
2 men who dedicated themselves to each other in a way that will end in death.
although this may be a relationship that endured here it can never endure for eternity.
my parents had their 50th wedding anniversary this year also. when he proposed he told my mother he would only marry her 1 place, and that would be in the house of the Lord so their relationship could endure for the eternities. to me this is an example of true love.
It is an example of true love. However that does not negate the love that these men have for one another nor does it negate the love that a heterosexual Catholic or Muslim married couple has for each other either. You're comparing apples and oranges here. Temple marriage and legal state sanctioned marriage are very different things.
I think example of true love are fantastic from all walks of life.
however, that being said true love is the love of Christ. and you know I'm pretty hard lined I do not understand how 2 people living in sin can be qualified as being blessed with 'the true love of Christ' so forgive me for this weakness.
it would be the same as 2 people living together that were heterosexual for 50 years without being in the bonds of marriage. it would be a sin all the same.
while it is a good thing they we able to attain with being together that long their is still a lot they are missing out on by not forasking their sins.
Are you aware that some South American countries do not allow divorced couples to ever get married again under their law? That creates a legal conundrum for the LDS Church. Are you aware of how the LDS Church dealt with this? It might surprise (perhaps even shock) your narrow mind as to how it was dealt with.
Indeed, the LDS Church sends retired lawyers on senior missions, to lobby the governments of those countries to leaglise divorce! And some say God is the same yesterday, today, and for ever.
I do know that they have changed their policies (very flexible) regarding the divorce laws of these countries and allowed previously divorced converts to be married in the Temple if they follow certain guidelines prior to marriage. That is one of the most liberal LDS policies I have heard of.
Solowookie you follow whatever choice you choose to follow. You just need to look more closely at yourself and what the outcomes of your choices are on the lives of others as well. The pure fact that you admit that Carol Lynn Pearson's cause "may be a noble cause" tells me that there is something good about it. You know why? Because that woman is faith. She is not preaching about faith. She is it. She knows about being the faith and being the love not talking or preaching about it.
and you think I am self rightoues? all this in the name of the fact that I do not agree with you.
I am not going to sit there, and to prove myself to you in anyway.
the scriptures state by their fruits you shall know them. here are your fruits youc all people narrow minded, are extremely judgemental, and now you are calling me faithless.
believe me when I state my standing before my Saviour is good. I feel the fruits of the spirit in my life almost non stop. I'm doing just fine.
on top of that my house is a house a peace, and is one where many people come because they feel such profound peace. obviously I am doing something right as an equal partner with my wife, and my children.
I would highly suggest you step back from yourself, and stop placing judgement on others.
I find most of your advice extermely hypocritical in natures. while you expect me to be tolerant of your lifestyle you are not willing to be tolerant of mine. I am narrow minded and faithless.
"practicing homosexuality" (that terminology) again sounds very judgmental. It sound like doing drugs or something. You obviously don't even know or are not around any gay couples who live very ordinary lives. You may know a gay person or more but likely they are the kind who are conflicted because of religious reasons. You probably would not feel comfortable with gay people (or a gay couple) who are comfortable with themselves and live positive productive lives.
you don't have a clue who I know, and have associated with you make a lot of assumptions. you also have no clue how I treat these people.
I also have friends who drink, smoke, and have sexual relations (both heterosexual and homosexual) outside the bonds of marriage, and yet I am friends with them all.
they know I do not agree with their life style, and they also know what they are doing is wrong. yet I love them, and I am their friend anyway. we all have our problems.
Again you use the term "I don't agree with their lifestyle" and they "know what they are doing is wrong" as equating gay people in the same camp as though our relationships are something we need to be ashamed of. That's where you and I party company
Drag you into their lifestyles? What like try to seduce you or something? Man alive that kind of statement "drag me into their lifestyles" sounds off the wall.
Why can't I accept who I am? What do you mean by that?
"Why can't I accept who I am? What do you mean by that?" I will let you figure that out on your own.
so if people don't agree with you they are judgemental, narrow minded, and unfaithful. from these comments I am beginning to comprehend you do not realize people have a different opinion / lifetyle, and that this reality is OK. and yet not only can they disagree, but that people with different view points can even be friends. I know perish the thought!
Sure people with different opinions can agree to disagree and be friends; however when people use their will to take away the civil rights of others whom they agree to disagree with then they have stepped over the bounds of simply being disagreeable.
Man alive you're a nut solowookie. "nobody is right unless they agree with you," What does this have to do with the questions I asked? Or what does this latest post have to do with the price of tea in China?
oh Brother. "I can accept who I am why can't you accept who you are?" That's not a statement. I'm asking a question as to what YOU meant by that. That's all.
that was a few statements back, and I made it clear I was going to let you answer that for yourself.
and why exactly is it that you feel that others are not capabe of negatively affecting others by their life style? you have a problem with a lot of 'terms'. your place a lot of emphasis on the terms rather then the real issues at hand.
there is right, there is wrong, and people are able to affect one another both positively, and negatively this should not be a novel idea.
Ok I'll let you be ambiguous about the first question. People are capable of negatively affecting others by stealing, lying, harassment, violence or causing emotional harm. That is unhealthy and harmful to society. We live in a pluralistic society and your religious Ideas of "right vs. wrong" may be completely at odds with another person's views on the subject. Evangelicals believe that you and I worship a false Jesus and that you are not a Christian. Does their "lifestyle" harm you or I?
does their lifetyles harm you and I? at times they do when there are large enough groups of said people to actually affect / sway society, and tug at the fundamental moral roots of society.
even on a smaller scale if they are able to influece peole away from rightousness it very much has an effect. I provide evidence of this by simply looking at society today vs. 20 years ago this is very evident.
Oh man alive if you look at society even 40 years ago black folks were treated less than 2nd class citizens. Women were still not given nearly the opportunities they have today. Those are serious moral problems wookie. I know you have had it pounded into your head that immoral = sexual sins but morality encompasses far more than that narrow view.
and since when has the gospel been concerned with society?
perhaps you should check your dictionary as one of the definitions of moral is EXACTLY what I have stated. guess that doesn't really fit into your world of slander and persecution though.
blacks folks were treated by 2nd class citizens by SOME!
One of the definitions not the only definition. If you think that the Gospel wasn't concerned with society then you really don't even begin to know or understand Jesus Christ one bit. Solowookie you really live in a narrow little dreamworld that is so far removed from the real world it is pathetic. To deny that black folks were treated as 2nd class citizens by "SOME" as though the civil rights movement were never even needed makes me seriously question your sanity.
you really are talking yourself into circles now. arguing the fact that not all treated the blacks the same? arguing the definition of moral when my definition was not wrong?
now you've decided you are an expert on Christ so where will you try to turn this conversation next?
you are simply trying to argue and fight... take it out on somebody else. what you are looking for is not here sorry. I do not hate you I simply don't agree with you.
What I wrote tonight was a response to a post you wrote. My response is as follows:
1) Whenever you hear that someone has been "immoral" Mormons think of sexual immorality and rarely think of the immorality of bigotry and racism. They don't equate the term immoral with dishonesty and lying.
2) Jesus was an activist for the poor and the downtrodden. He spoke out for them.
"take it out on somebody else?" LOL Oh boy. I can't believe some of the things you write sometimes. It's disturbing.
and yet you take every occasion to slander all in the name of feeling others are bigost, and racist. so what is it that you teach an eye for an eye? to wrongs make a right?
if you feel we are so wrong where does that put your actions?
Christ was an activist for those who will follow him. he spoke in parables to hide the mysteries of heavan from those who do not earnest seek him. those who are poor and downtrodden are not necessarliy those who follow Christ.
Wake up people!!! We are falling away from gods laws and being deceived by Satan. We are accepting sin as being good. We are ripening for destruction. The ax is laid at the tree unless we wake up and repent. Stop justifying sin.
jawjww 1 month ago
@jawjww Wake up dingbat, you really don't know your butt from a hole in the ground regarding the Bible and especially what Jesus taught regarding homosexuality. He said absolutely NOTHING about the subject. You act like you can fill in the vacuum where He left off and fill it in with your self-righteous tripe. Jesus had plenty to say about Pharisees though. He also had plenty to say about love and same gender couples who wish to get married is about love.
ZenLDS 3 weeks ago
The blood of gay members' shame, guilt, pain, and suicides is on this man's hands and the other authorities. How pathetic! Not only are his arguments easily debunked and plain ignorant but Mormons actually buy this bigotry and spread it about. This makes me sick to my stomach!!
GiveCourage 1 month ago
He talks about the Plan of Happiness. Yet Utah has the highest use of anti-depressants in the US. This is because the Mormon "Plan of Happiness" makes people miserable.
drinkswithnedkelly 1 month ago
Thirty years ago, Bednar would have been using the same arguments against giving blacks equal rights - his predecessors certainly did. Growing up in the church in the 70s, I was taught all kinds of racist filth, using the same kinds of twisted justification that Bednar is doing.
drinkswithnedkelly 1 month ago
@drinkswithnedkelly This is the saddest thing about this religion. These men cannot look in the mirror and see the mistakes they have made and the ones that they continue to make against gay and lesbian Latter-day Saints. The Church's response to the Prop 8 issue has resulted in far too many broken families and far too many divisions and pain. The Church leaders typically just don't get it.
ZenLDS 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
To learn about an informative movie on Proposition 8, watch the YouTube video:
"Have Mormons Learned? — ReThink Interview: Linda Stay & Fred Karger from 8: THE MORMON PROPOSITION" by jsjkim
Everyone concerned about human rights and freedom in America should watch "8: The Mormon Proposition." You can find the DVD on-line at Amazon, TLA Video and Deep Discount DVD. Buy it and watch it. To do even more good, after you watch it, donate it to your local library.
RCSVirginia 1 month ago
All this intolerance... It's sickening.
laurayu70 1 month ago
What an idiot.
GiveCourage 3 months ago
Dude, SHUT THE FUCK UP
JPRamon68 5 months ago
i don't hate queers, i am not a homophobe. i just don't think that they should have the same rights as me.
>.>;
sadpanda71 8 months ago 4
Comment removed
ZenLDS 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@sadpanda71 Yes that's like saying "I don't hate African Americans, I am not a racist I just don't think they should have the same rights as me."
ZenLDS 3 weeks ago
Marriage is a sacred relationship between a man and a woman.
Unless of course you are Joseph's Myth or Breedem Young. In which case marriage is between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and some teenage girls.
drinkswithnedkelly 11 months ago 3
@drinkswithnedkelly
Ha! What a funny remark! LOL!
RCSVirginia 1 month ago
This video is DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUBM!
artizek 11 months ago
I feel sorry for Bednar. He no doubt is a true believer. In his public appearances after being called as an Apostle in 2004, he was visibly sullen. He no doubt truly believed that his special office would afford him a face-to-face interview with the risen Christ. Reality sucks. But...no doubt the bretheren finally got Bednar to either feel ashamed for thinking that way or they convinced him that warm fuzzy feeling and group think are as good as a personal visitation from God. Jeeezus H.
GohModley 1 year ago
Case law is a tool of the devil!
GohModley 1 year ago
well if health class is part of the california school curriculum, wouldnt students be required to study and be taught that traditional and gay marriage are equal?
thomasadamnelson 1 year ago
@thomasadamnelson They would probably only be required to answer questions about it and state that it was legal in California and elsewhere. Mostly they would likely take a small section of time to help make the class aware that same sex marriage always amounts to a minority of couples and thus these people (being unusual and different) need to be treated with respect and kindness. That's likely the extent of the discussion on the issue.
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
My friend talked with him personally when he was president of BYUI. He says Bednar's a dick.
micfishevyt 1 year ago
@micfishevyt
how so?
thomasadamnelson 1 year ago
@thomasadamnelson Apparently he told my friend that there was a low tolerance policy for people having "issues" and that for everyone that wasn't strong enough there were plenty of others willing to take their place as students. There was perhaps some bias in my friend's story...he himself was ex'd years after he told me that story, and I always though a university based around religion was recipe for disaster, but notions like that stick with someone. I still cringe when I hear Elder Bednar.
micfishevyt 1 year ago
@micfishevyt BYU has a long and sad history of LGBT witch hunts. Your friends story is very likely true. Back in the 70's and even early 80's BYU's honor code enforcement people used to go to Salt Lake and take down license plate numbers (and even take photos) of students who happened to be parked at gay bars so they could turn them in and start disciplinary proceedings. These people were notorious for setting up sting operations in BYU restrooms to catch gay men who might be cruising for men
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
@micfishevyt In other words Elder Bednar wasn't very nice. Did your friend find him to be mean spirited and judgmental?
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
@Rockymtntruth Honestly I don't know, although my friend never spoke to or of anyone in a mean spirited way. I am very familiar with what had gone on at BYU in earlier days with homosexual students-I wrote a 40 page paper for an anthropology class on that. But what it all boils down to is that the BYUs want to get rid of all but the best in their eyes--for things that don't even have to do anything with academics. They are blacklisted by the American Assoc of University Professors.
micfishevyt 1 year ago
@micfishevyt "They are blacklisted by the American Assoc of University Professors." I've heard about that. Any institution of higher learning who punishes professors and students for intellectual questioning and criticism definitely has some serious issues.
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
Bednar says that certain things could happen in the future if people vote no on prop 8. This guy says that those things will not happen or are very unlikely:
'This is absurd'
'He's about to say something wild and crazy'
'OK, this is bordering on paranoia'
I am not a political expert, but I think it is presumptuous to say that someone's ideas about the future are absurd, wild, crazy, etc. on such a topic. History has taught us that changing political policies has unpredictable outcomes.
andrewpenner10 1 year ago
You can decide your morality, but God decides the standards... Im just saying. Elder Bednar is amazing. Chill out, democracy won. just because it ended up in a way you didnt want it to thats just the way it is. ( I voted for a strong government in the UK, we got a hung parliament... democracy won, but a lot of people arent happy. Tough times)
philloynes 1 year ago
@philloynes
Really? God decides the standards? Then who decides which standards are actually God's?
ScienceReasonBelief 1 year ago
@ScienceReasonBelief
God does, have to ask him.
philloynes 1 year ago
@philloynes
Really? Cool. God is telling me that the Mormon church was wrong to organize and help to pass Prop 8. God's also telling me that the Mormons don't have respect for civil rights for gays, likely because Mormons think that gays aren't as good as other people. God's telling me that the Mormon church is wrong on this.
ScienceReasonBelief 1 year ago
@ScienceReasonBelief Ok, well if you believe that is what God is telling you then I guess we have to agree to disagree.
philloynes 1 year ago
@philloynes
I have lots of reasons to believe the way I do, and TONS of reasons not to believe the Mormons.
ScienceReasonBelief 1 year ago
@philloynes The main reason the Church has been involved in this issue since 1995 is because they know that when society changes dramatically in this area that they will be left in the past and will look like fools and bigots for their stand on the issue. Can you imagine what it will be like years down the road when marriage equality is here and most people feel that being homophobic is bigoted and wrong? How will that leave the Mormon Church? They'll definitely be in a major quandary.
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
@philloynes Actually "democracy" did not win in this case as it is very much up for debate as to whether that vote was even authentic democracy. When a homophobic majority votes to take away rights from a minority that is not true democracy. That is tyranny and a Federal judge has overturned prop 8. We will see how the Supreme Court decides this issue. Another Federal Judge just ruled Don't Ask Don't Tell as unconstitutional. The precedence is being strongly established in favor of equality
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
live and let live? I never read that in the scriptures.
MrFitzwilly 1 year ago
With a heavy heart, I have returned to watch this video on Conference weekend. The LDS Church is supposed to be the only Living church in the world, yet it has been consistently slow, late or failed completely to lead the people of this world in any positive directions FORWARD. I remember when the Church fought against the Equal Rights Amendment, and now I see Mormon leaders (many of whom are the same) extolling the virtues of things brought about from the ERA. Where's the disconnect?
strcastwy 1 year ago
Same thing goes for Blacks and the Priesthood.Reconcile it all you like in yourself with "God must think they weren't ready yet.", but the Church didn't come to terms with that issue until 1978. You may not like the commentary blurbs on this video pointing that out, but a 'Living' Church would've been ahead of the game. Of course, you can say that was only McConkie's wrong opinion, but doesn't that leave the door open for Bednar and other apostles to have the wrong opinion?
strcastwy 1 year ago
I went to BYU and I studied to be a marital therapist there. My hunger for knowledge, wisdom and understanding led me to research homosexuality. It is normal! It happens in other animals the world over with great consistency. So what should I believe? The thousands of miraculous creations of God that I witness engaging in homosexuality, or what other people tell me God says is so?
strcastwy 1 year ago
Finally I didn't like seeing the backlash the Mormons received from some of the Anti 8 community. I know you were angry but don't you know by attacking someone generally only causes them to entrench themselves further? Hardline evangelicals and the Christian Right were on the sidelines laughing their butts off at it all. They got the Mormons to do their dirty work and take all the blame. In their greatest dreams, they would've given you all knives and had you run at each other.
strcastwy 1 year ago
whatever, well just wait until Christ comes, well se what he thinks about all this crap.
coachhines32 2 years ago
@coachhines32: that is, if your version of God is the correct one and this Christ comes at all.
Kaileo1 1 year ago
Additionally, none of these "prepared" cult members in the video seemed to ask the question about churches that WILL marry gay couples. What about THEIR religious "freedoms?" Aren't their freedoms being violated by the impositon of the "LDS" doctrine on all churches? That's NOT freedom...
lisztnut 2 years ago
@lisztnut - waht r u even talking about? or are you just trying to sound smart?
medgirl123 1 year ago
@medgirl123 um, I don't need to "sound" smart, I AM smart. I have a Ph D, and have taught at four major universities from New York City to San Francisco. AND, I can spell. You CANNOT spell. So, I'll leave it to our viewers to decide who is smart... You just got OWNED....
lisztnut 1 year ago
@medgirl123 I don't think it even matters that you have degrees and have taught all over the states, I have degrees too, You still didn't answer my question. But somehow I really don't feel like you OWNED me... since when is that the point. I was pointing out how your comment didn't make sense. I find it sad how debate turns so quickly to cheap jabs at simple spelling errors, instead of engaging in actual ideas.
medgirl123 1 year ago
@medgirl123 People who are typically arrogant (religious arrogance is one of the worst of all) use that term "OWNED" in a way that sounds like they have conquered someone. It tells us far more about the person using the word than it does about the person who is supposedly "owned".
Rockymtntruth 1 year ago
@lisztnut
You have made some terrific points on this video. I hope that everyone will click back to find them and read them. Good job!
RCSVirginia 1 month ago
@RCSVirginia thanks for the compliment!
lisztnut 1 month ago
This video is excellent at showing how these cult members use typical "talking points" that have little to do with the real world. The "religious freedoms" argument is the lamest of the lame. The New Jersey case that they like to cite is bogus. It was a JEWISH lesbian couple that wanted to use a METHODIST public space, they were NOT asking to be married in a Methodist church. Why would they want that, since they are JEWISH? Hilarious....
lisztnut 2 years ago
Comment removed
lisztnut 2 years ago
I can't believe this. This is one of the most propagated and slanderous things i've seen. there is such blurred half truth, It's completely unfair
ruretrdd 2 years ago
@ruretrdd It's because it's the work of imbecile amateurs, and only other imbeciles feed off of this and find support in it.
medgirl123 1 year ago
Fuck Mormons and their crooked morals.
TheAshleyCorinne 2 years ago
@TheAshleyCorinne oh is that because yours are better? Look in the mirror before you start trowing stones.
medgirl123 1 year ago
@medgirl123 I don't have morals, so THERE!!!
TheAshleyCorinne 1 year ago
I think the uninformed person is the one that made this video.
tarnalina 2 years ago
Way to point out and attack Mormons. What a ridiculous video...such tactics shouldnt surprise anyone.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Countering their points and bringing up quotes and beliefs from Mormon leaders is NOT an attack, it's just honest discussion.
The attack came from the Yes on 8 people directed at MY marriage.
isrred 2 years ago
oedipusvv ..I also know of couples in Vermont and other areas across our great nation that have been together for decades and even raising children. The love that is there cannot be denied. This is a mystery that is very difficult for people steeped in a certain religious mindset. It's excruciatingly difficult unless they drop their fears and start to open their minds and hearts and listen with love.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
I agree that it's saddening to see the excuses people come up with for opposing same-sex marriage. It's rarely to do with reason, and moslty to do with emotion.
Few people are willing to compromise the old values they have learned and taught themselves to the point that their identity is intertwined with them, and the movements that prescribe them. Those who are open minded and come off the defensive take a big step are truly courageous.
timonline2000 2 years ago
Marriage is Ordained of God between a man and a women, when the church accepts gay "marriage " it accepts all the consequences "ripples" that comes from that decision. oh and those gay grandchildren that he will by genetics probably have will have a difficult task to over come but threw the atonement nothing is impossible. I think that gays wont get marriage they will get civil unions. im not saying I approve of that or disapprove the concept with out details of what civil union is
oedipusvv 2 years ago
oedipusvv it is celestial marriage that is ordained of God according to what I've read in LDS history. Civil marriages are what people make of them. Some are like the crazy ones that happen at a Vegas drive-in yet can turn out to be amazing. Others can happen in a very religious place and can go down hill and end in bitter divorce with children suffering as a result.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago 5
Some of those marriages which go down hill can be "eternal" temple marriages, which makes these Mormon happy families just as fallible as any other.
These Mormons (and other Christians) talk about marriage being ordained of God, but never of Community being ordained of God. It excuses them from being such bad neighbours towards their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, which is truly tragic.
timonline2000 2 years ago
timonline2000 you're right on about community. Mormons have all but forgotten what it means to be community builders. I read a wonderful book edited and produced by Terry Tempest Williams entitled New Genesis: A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. Every Mormon should read that book along with Dr. Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. That book is also another book that is very all encompassing about one of the hallmarks and wonderful traits of Mormon the LDS past the history of community building
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
@timonline2000 this whole thing is tragic, humans are prone to error and all manner of evil and stupidness. On every side of prop 8 - everyone loves to mask their own crappy lives by pointing out scapegoats. We may have personal values but I agree why should that stop anyone from being teated with respect and friendship regardless of their choices. And can everyone stop using absolutes and generalizations - nothing screams ignorance and stupidity
medgirl123 1 year ago
Wookie: The Pharisees, in their obsession with the word and the law, weren't led by the spirit, so why should you be for acting them?
So is the Iraq war "light" or "dark"? You keep dodging the question.
timonline2000 2 years ago
Wookie it's also very dishonest in nature.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
very dishonest in nature? lol - those who actually know me in real life would laugh at that statement.
matter of fact I'd be wililng to wager one of the problems you have with my posts is I am willing to honestly speak my mind, and not beat around the bush.
this comment is a bunch of garbage.
solowookie 2 years ago
There still tends to be a "persecution complex" and victim mentality in the LDS culture. Some LDS people (I say some because several LDS are supportive of LGBT equality) will say that gay people have a persecution or victim mentality. When you have been treated as pariah's, killed, vilified and demonized for far too long you might get pretty angry at those who tend to start the persecution and demonizing. The LDS Church has not been persecuted like Wookie says for over 100 plus years.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago 2
don't flatter yourself with this persecution complex.
you don't think this persuction still exists? search some youtube videos, and open your eyes. we still have missionaries killed because of who they are, and famlies kick members out for joining the church.
if you think the persecution is gone you are blind.
it is not a 'complex' it is reality, and still happens. I don't really have a problem with it I know in whom I trust. persecution is a small thing, and but a moment.
solowookie 2 years ago
"Don't flatter yourself with this persecution complex"? Give us a break. Mormon identity is built on what it thinks is "persecution".
timonline2000 2 years ago
dictionary defintion of persecution;
"a program or campaign to exterminate, drive away, or subjugate a people because of their religion, race, or beliefs"
do a youtube search for the word "Mormon" you will easily find proof of the provided definition.
solowookie 2 years ago
Note that persecution does not mean "any comment that flows short of glowing praise, and may be seen to question a person or organisation's view of things". That's most Mormons' view of persecution. Wait until the police beat you up, torture you, and close down your meeting houses. Wait until the police or army drive you and your family out of your "home of peace" ranch in Wyoming, or you're fired from your job for your religious affiliation. Then I'll accept that Mormons are persecuted.
timonline2000 2 years ago
so basically what are stating is the dictionary is not correct, and you prefer your own definition.
now I understand your point.
solowookie 2 years ago
No. If you read my post then the dictionary is correct. It's your own - and the general LDS - definition that isn't , so don't pretend you follow the dictionary's description of persecution.
timonline2000 2 years ago
so men like Ed Decker who have caused our churches to be bombed (hundreds of thousands of dollars), missionaries to be killed etc etc do not count as persecution?
all these other organizations literally put together with the goal of overthrowing the church is not persecution? the people that picket our temples, and destroy our property are not perseuction?
those are PRECISELY in harmony with the definition the dictionary gave.
solowookie 2 years ago
So how does that make you different to all the other Churches around, where attacks, verbal and physical, planned and spontaneous, happen daily all over the world? What marks persecution against Mormons out from other Christians or religious groups? The LDS Church has never had it so good in media or society, yet you still can't help yourselves and you have to play the persecution card.
timonline2000 2 years ago
and you call me naive?
solowookie 2 years ago
While monks are being tortured and killed in Burma, LDS people cheapen the whole meaning of "persecution".
timonline2000 2 years ago
and yet lies from one Ed Decker telling South America our missionaries are CIA agents has cost us lives, and several hundreds of thousands of dollars.
so what, you grade persecution on a scale of 1-10, and decide what you qualifies?
I'm not going to discuss 'persecution' with you anymore. you obviously don't have a clue, and while you claim I won't open my eyes you are clearly blinded here.
solowookie 2 years ago
solowookie obviously has an extremely narrow view about persecution. "oh no the anti-Mormon christian Evangelicals are out to do us in." Most people on here don't have a clue about Ed Decker nor do they even give a rats ass about who the guy is.
Starvalleybotany 2 years ago
and how / why do you think you know my 'complete' view on persecution? what basis do you have to even make the statement you did about me being narrow minded in my view of persecution?
so do you deviate from the dictionary also, and make up your own opinions about what qualifies?
solowookie 2 years ago
Some Mormons some how think that questioning of their beliefs puts them in some special league of persecution, regardless of how many monks in Burma are being tortured, or how many other churches, mosques or synagogues are being firebombed.
People might not like Mormons in Wookie's country, but he can at least expect a fair hearing in court if he loses his job for being a Mormon, more than a religious person could get in China.
timonline2000 2 years ago
Solowookie sounds like a Happy Valley, Provo, Utah Mormon. He's kind of in his own little dream world.
Starvalleybotany 2 years ago
Wookie you don't have to convince the world that your "sins" are "righteous actions". Some people in the world think that the fact that you are a Mormon is sinful. Others think that since you are not a Muslim you are part of the Infidels. All of that is outside stuff. What matters is how you feel about you inside. If you can tell the difference between the voice of God, the voice of friends, family, church leaders, etc. That's when miracles happen. The heart is where the action is.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
when are sins rightous actions? sins are NEVER rightous actions - hence the fact they are called SINS.
the heart is where the action is? it takes more then heart FYI... we won't be judged on heart on the other side. we will be judged on our thoughts, deeds, and actions.
solowookie 2 years ago
Gay people have been treated terribly by Christianity in general (with few exceptions) throughout history. Gay people were tortured & burned at the stake during the medieval period. Gay people themselves who were Christians often hated themselves and beat themselves up terribly with inner shame and fear. This inner conflict all too often comes out in terrible and twisted ways and sometimes ends in suicide. This happens today as well. Fear and love are polar opposites. Jesus taught love.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Jesus was intensely concerned with society in His time mortal time. He despised the bigotry of the Pharisees who's self-righteousness and haute piety caused them to completely miss the mark of charity and authentic love that the Gospel was all about. Jesus was a revolutionary activist in His outspoken words to those like the money changers in the Temple and toward the Pharisees who were constantly hounding Him.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
There is a church that believes Matt Shepherd is in hell and want to put a big monument up in a Government owned park in Casper, Wyoming that with a Scripture from Leviticus to back up their statement. Does their "lifestyle" that is the expression of their belief system harm our society? They also picket funerals of our fallen heroes who come back from Iraq and Afghanistan stating that the acceptance of gays by our nation has brought these deaths. Does their "lifestyle" harm society?
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
you mean like people picketting churches, and temples? and destroying property? (sound familiar?)
solowookie 2 years ago
BTW I can and have accepted who I am. The reason I asked you the question "why can't I accept who I am?, etc." is because of what you asked me. "I can accept who I am why can't you accept who you are?" I simply asked what you meant by that.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
When you say "they know what they are doing is wrong" (gay couples who are committed to one another) then you must have some pretty conflicted gay friends who feel ashamed of their lives. My friends and family who are gay embrace themselves and their lives as whole and healthy not as an "unhealthy lifestyle"
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Also "solowookie" the terminology "lifestyle" is a typical political buzzword that has very negative even bigoted connotations. I am a gay man who has a very diverse "lifestyle" as an estate planner who is taking care of my mother and who established 2 political actions committees for the protection of the environment. I have an outdoor lifestyle because I love the mountains, skiing, mt. biking and white water rafting. That's a great lifestyle.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
In addition, in a letter to legislative leaders, NAACP national board chair Julian Bond and President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous urged passage of SR 7 and companion resolution HR 5 (Ammiano)
Last week Equality California brought close to 1,000 volunteers from across the state to Sacramento to meet with legislators and staff, urging them to support SR 7 and HR 5, which passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Feb. 17th. Both resolutions could be headed for a floor vote as early as Thursday.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
The Senate Judiciary Committee passed Senate Resolution 7 (Leno) today, which would put the legislature on record as opposing Prop. 8 as an illegal revision to the California Constitution.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
The law of Christ is to be given through the principle of free agency and never through compulsion. Read D&C 121. That is a powerful indictment of those who think they can use compulsion over the children of men. D&C 121 is an indictment of prop 8.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
don't give me an entire chapter give specific versus.
if you read the parts I believe you are talking about it is laying sin to those who have not sinned. those here are blatantly proclaiming these actions, and laying those sins to themselves. I'm just disagreeing with the fact they feel their actions are justified / righteous.
solowookie 3 years ago
Why not an entire chapter? That's how scripture was read and interpreted before mass literacy i.e. in Christ's time (even in J Smith's time too). You can take an individual verse and make it mean whatever you want it to, just as millions have done before you, and will continue to do. Some of them even claim to have the "spirit" with them, just like you do.
timonline2000 3 years ago
if a person does not have the spirit with them they will not interpret the scriptures correctly...
if you were to give me specific versus I would still read the whole... it would still accomplish your designs. however, the reluctance to do so give me more of an idea that not even you have it narrowed down to what you are looking for.
solowookie 3 years ago
"If a person does not have the spirit with them they will not interpret the scriptures correctly.."
...and you say you're not brainwashed.
timonline2000 3 years ago
brainwashed? if read the scriptures, and study them at all this statement is ABUNDANTLY clear.
if brainwashed means I attempt to keep a close relationship with the spirit, my Saviouir, and my Heavenly Father then I am guilty as charged.
if it means that I actually try to understand the scriptures through the spirit, as the scriptures tell us we must do to understand them, again I am guilty of charged.
if this means I use the interpretations of the spirit rather then mans again guilty.
solowookie 3 years ago
Do you believe that polygamous marriages (like you read in D&C 132) were also included as a place where one could find immense happiness and joy at least in the LDS Church up through the 2nd Manifesto? This is obviously another kind of marriage and they were performed in the Temple for eternity.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
I'm not even sure how this is even a question of consideration you know what I believe regarding this if I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.
and I know where you are going with that questionas you laid it out. however that is not what the scriptures tell us. polygamy was practiced from the beginning at certain times, but homosexuality was never ok.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
solowookie 3 years ago
For some reason everything he said makes sense to moderate people, but not the uploader.
And the pause with a smartfuck comment every 10 seconds was really annoying.
I'm not mormon, but marriage was created by religion, not government. So stop bitching, go get a domestic partnership.
kamikazee55 3 years ago
You obviously don't understand the legal limitations of settling for a domestic partnership. Study up on the legal issues here and then you'll understand the full picture.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
You know I am very glad that this video was posted on YouTube because it just lays the facts out very clearly about how the LDS leadership is formulating their arguments and teaching them to young impressionable minds. This video exposes these arguments for the world to view and I guarantee most are pretty appalled at what they are seeing.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
If anyone ever gets the opportunity to read the book by Dr. Michael Quinn entitled "Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century Americans: A Mormon Example" please go to Amazon and secure a copy. It explains the history of the LDS church and its evolving policies toward gay people. It is a fascinating window into the past and how the McCarthy politics and Freudian psychological theories also influenced LDS policy toward gay people. That is how "shock therapy" found its place at BYU too.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago 2
Well then that should apply to you as well. If you are in love with someone you don't need a piece of paper to prove it either. Just go put on a CTR ring and pretend it's a wedding ring. Get real and stop the selfish self-righteousness.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
when I married I would settle for nothing short of an eternal marriage on that was performed with the proper authority to be effective for time and eternity of me & my wife live up to that covenant.
what I have with my wife is much greater then that piece of paper when I've entered a covenant with Christ, and my wife.
solowookie 3 years ago
Part of me is disturbed that you would come on this site and brag like you have about something that is so personal. My parents would never have done this in an open forum like this. Like the quietness of the temple they let their lives be a silent witness of their love for one another. My late father would never have gotten involved in the prop 8 thing. He would have put it in God's hands and would never have judged me or anyone else. I think that is what bugs me most with you.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
I am not your parents. I do let my life stand as a witness, and you are the one that brought it up in the first place.
now that you attack what is sacred you can't handle the response / answer I find that quite interesting, and hypocritical.
I do not feel compelled for any reason to let others incorrectly state on so public of a stage tolerance for homosexuality. tolerance for the sinner, absolutely, tolerance for the sin, absolutely not.
solowookie 3 years ago
So how do you tolerate the sinner without tolerating the sin? Do you lie to your children by concealing the the fact that same sex relationships exist and can even thrive? Same-sex relationships are not a doctrine, they're a real existing phenomenon that you cannot control.
timonline2000 3 years ago
No adoption agency that is a religious and private organization has to close because it will not adopt to same sex couples. Gay couples have other agencies that they can go to. This fear-based rhetoric that churches will be forced to perform marriages and adoptions they do not believe in is a lie and what is fueling a lot of this anger and rancor regarding prop 8. It's ludicrous and it's got to stop. The truth gets lost in this rhetoric because it is so fear-based.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Indeed, any (Catholic) adoption agencies that have closed have CHOSEN to do so. It is the worst possible open, when they could either stay open and accept offers from LGBT adults, or find other ways of serving children in line with their beliefs.
timonline2000 3 years ago
Just knock and you will be changed from gay to straight. Never mind the tens of thousands of gay LDS who have knocked and knocked and knocked but nothing changed. Never mind those gay LDS who did everything for decades yet nothing changed and some even took their own lives because their depression became clinical. Never mind those who have received an peace assured answer from the Spirit (that their gay orientation is a God given gift) far different than the one Solowookie would approve of.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
that their orientation is a God given gift? yea, thats why Sodom and Gamorah was destroyed because that is a rightous act supported by the Holy Ghost.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. it was wrong 2k years ago, and before that it is still wrong today.
it is never possible to make blanket statements like that, and presume they apply to every situation.
believe it or not everybody doesn't broadcast their personal lives to the world.
solowookie 3 years ago
Solowookie (it appears is a guy) sounds like an Orthodox Jew who probably must remain fully clothed (or at least partially) during sex.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
why would you even say such a pig headed perverted comment. that is a statement about me you will never know about.
solowookie 3 years ago
That's a little ironic, responding to a comment about Jews by talking about "PIG-headed".
From what you have written on here, your theology is MORE dogmatic than that of a strictly-Orthodox Jew. All word, all patriarchal, all repression, no spirit. The difference between you and Orthodox Jews is that you show NO humanity towards those who are different.
timonline2000 3 years ago
what humanity exactly do you expect me to show?
we are having a conversation about wither being gay is sin. am I suppose to show some tolerance for this sin?
not once have we EVER discussed having tolerance for the sinner, but rather the sin.
many times I have admitted I have my own problems, and own sins. yet you easily cast all that aside, and blindly focus on the details you desire.
the end result of this is accusations that I have no humanity towards those that are different.
solowookie 3 years ago
so where is the part you have focused on the fact that you force your values of sin / no sin on society, and expect them to accept it?
I have never been prejudice towards a gay person, but that does not mean I have to be tolerant of anybodies sin that affects my life. you publicizing your sins affect my life when you expect others to accept it as something that is not sin.
solowookie 3 years ago
BTW why don't you go to Sister Carol Lynn Pearson's website called nomoregoodbyes (look it up) and learn about a woman who has truly been through the sanctifying fire of experience. A woman who loves mercy and has been so unconditional in her love for her late husband, family and friends that is is absolutely incredible. She has a Ghandi like spirit about her. She knows far more about homosexual issues than the vast majority of people I have talked with including church leaders.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
so here you go judging me about whether or not I have been through a 'sanctification' process...
I enjoy reading any such stories. I will look it up as well as the other one you mentioned.
so at what point do you stop judging me? at what point am I allowed to follow my own beliefs and convictions? at what point do you even turn the conversation to GIVE IT A CHANCE to talk about tolerance for a sinner rather then a sin?
you are unrelenting others must accept your sin and that is wrong
solowookie 3 years ago
Oh boy. Cool beans about looking those up. They are good stories. I think we need to stop calling people sinners (the original Greek actually means to miss the mark like a bowman would miss the bullseye) the old mote and beam scenerio and start pointing out the positive. I have a very personal faith and belief regarding the old sin/sinner and salvation issue. I will only suffice it to say that I believe what Origen and Clement of Alexandria taught in the 3rd century regarding salvation.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
stop calling people sinner? it is a reality WE ARE ALL SINNERS! (yes that includes me)
I think this realization is a first step in truly finding power of deliverance from our sins as you choose to follow the Saviour, and grow in faith hope an charity.
it isn't like we aren't all in the same boat.
solowookie 3 years ago
Yep we are all in the same boat. We are all mortal and subject to physical death as well as making mistakes that hurt others and harm ourselves in one way or another. Remember by their fruits shall ye know them. Look at the outcome of people's relationships. I know of two men who have been together for over 50 years in Los Angeles, CA. I had a Stake President who I told about these guys and he said "now that's a relationship."
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
2 men who dedicated themselves to each other in a way that will end in death.
although this may be a relationship that endured here it can never endure for eternity.
my parents had their 50th wedding anniversary this year also. when he proposed he told my mother he would only marry her 1 place, and that would be in the house of the Lord so their relationship could endure for the eternities. to me this is an example of true love.
solowookie 3 years ago
It is an example of true love. However that does not negate the love that these men have for one another nor does it negate the love that a heterosexual Catholic or Muslim married couple has for each other either. You're comparing apples and oranges here. Temple marriage and legal state sanctioned marriage are very different things.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
I think example of true love are fantastic from all walks of life.
however, that being said true love is the love of Christ. and you know I'm pretty hard lined I do not understand how 2 people living in sin can be qualified as being blessed with 'the true love of Christ' so forgive me for this weakness.
it would be the same as 2 people living together that were heterosexual for 50 years without being in the bonds of marriage. it would be a sin all the same.
solowookie 3 years ago
while it is a good thing they we able to attain with being together that long their is still a lot they are missing out on by not forasking their sins.
it saddens my heart.
solowookie 3 years ago
Are you aware that some South American countries do not allow divorced couples to ever get married again under their law? That creates a legal conundrum for the LDS Church. Are you aware of how the LDS Church dealt with this? It might surprise (perhaps even shock) your narrow mind as to how it was dealt with.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
Indeed, the LDS Church sends retired lawyers on senior missions, to lobby the governments of those countries to leaglise divorce! And some say God is the same yesterday, today, and for ever.
timonline2000 3 years ago
I do know that they have changed their policies (very flexible) regarding the divorce laws of these countries and allowed previously divorced converts to be married in the Temple if they follow certain guidelines prior to marriage. That is one of the most liberal LDS policies I have heard of.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
well - standing on the outside looking in can be very deciptive.
FYI - I looked up Carol. I think what she is working on may be a noble cause, but definitely is not the path I am to follow in this life.
I think my path in currently is to stop letting others proclaim what my beliefs are.
every tactic you have used has been on that has been to get me to compromise my beliefs, but it will not work.
I know the mercy of my Saviour well.
solowookie 3 years ago
Solowookie you follow whatever choice you choose to follow. You just need to look more closely at yourself and what the outcomes of your choices are on the lives of others as well. The pure fact that you admit that Carol Lynn Pearson's cause "may be a noble cause" tells me that there is something good about it. You know why? Because that woman is faith. She is not preaching about faith. She is it. She knows about being the faith and being the love not talking or preaching about it.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
and you think I am self rightoues? all this in the name of the fact that I do not agree with you.
I am not going to sit there, and to prove myself to you in anyway.
the scriptures state by their fruits you shall know them. here are your fruits youc all people narrow minded, are extremely judgemental, and now you are calling me faithless.
believe me when I state my standing before my Saviour is good. I feel the fruits of the spirit in my life almost non stop. I'm doing just fine.
solowookie 3 years ago
on top of that my house is a house a peace, and is one where many people come because they feel such profound peace. obviously I am doing something right as an equal partner with my wife, and my children.
I would highly suggest you step back from yourself, and stop placing judgement on others.
I find most of your advice extermely hypocritical in natures. while you expect me to be tolerant of your lifestyle you are not willing to be tolerant of mine. I am narrow minded and faithless.
solowookie 3 years ago
Solowookie you are the one judging here. Sorry that you can't see that.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
I see it.....
loganson1 3 years ago
Here you go again.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
which is precisely how you feel to justify that being practicing homosexuality is ok...
do you hold yourself to the same standards you feel to hold the LDS church to?
solowookie 3 years ago
"practicing homosexuality" (that terminology) again sounds very judgmental. It sound like doing drugs or something. You obviously don't even know or are not around any gay couples who live very ordinary lives. You may know a gay person or more but likely they are the kind who are conflicted because of religious reasons. You probably would not feel comfortable with gay people (or a gay couple) who are comfortable with themselves and live positive productive lives.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
you don't have a clue who I know, and have associated with you make a lot of assumptions. you also have no clue how I treat these people.
I also have friends who drink, smoke, and have sexual relations (both heterosexual and homosexual) outside the bonds of marriage, and yet I am friends with them all.
they know I do not agree with their life style, and they also know what they are doing is wrong. yet I love them, and I am their friend anyway. we all have our problems.
solowookie 3 years ago
Again you use the term "I don't agree with their lifestyle" and they "know what they are doing is wrong" as equating gay people in the same camp as though our relationships are something we need to be ashamed of. That's where you and I party company
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
and it is my right to judge right and wrong, and determine how I will let certain actions affect me.
I do not preach religion to them, and they do not attempt to drag me into their lifestyles that I do not agree with.
I have many good friends who do not believe as I do, and yet we respect one anothers right to choose.
whether you are I are friends, or part company or not quite frankly really is your descision. I can accept who I am why can't you accept who you are?
solowookie 3 years ago
Drag you into their lifestyles? What like try to seduce you or something? Man alive that kind of statement "drag me into their lifestyles" sounds off the wall.
Why can't I accept who I am? What do you mean by that?
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
"Why can't I accept who I am? What do you mean by that?" I will let you figure that out on your own.
so if people don't agree with you they are judgemental, narrow minded, and unfaithful. from these comments I am beginning to comprehend you do not realize people have a different opinion / lifetyle, and that this reality is OK. and yet not only can they disagree, but that people with different view points can even be friends. I know perish the thought!
solowookie 3 years ago
Sure people with different opinions can agree to disagree and be friends; however when people use their will to take away the civil rights of others whom they agree to disagree with then they have stepped over the bounds of simply being disagreeable.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
stepped over the bounds of simply being disagreeable?
nice spin on the conversation... and you call me narrow minded lol
pretty much the very first time you have brought up prop 8 when challenged with this question.
add this to the fact nobody is right unless they agree with you, and there you have it your opinions in a nutshell.
solowookie 3 years ago
Man alive you're a nut solowookie. "nobody is right unless they agree with you," What does this have to do with the questions I asked? Or what does this latest post have to do with the price of tea in China?
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
you didn't ask a question you made a statement, but you don't even abide by your own statements.
solowookie 3 years ago
oh Brother. "I can accept who I am why can't you accept who you are?" That's not a statement. I'm asking a question as to what YOU meant by that. That's all.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
that was a few statements back, and I made it clear I was going to let you answer that for yourself.
and why exactly is it that you feel that others are not capabe of negatively affecting others by their life style? you have a problem with a lot of 'terms'. your place a lot of emphasis on the terms rather then the real issues at hand.
there is right, there is wrong, and people are able to affect one another both positively, and negatively this should not be a novel idea.
solowookie 3 years ago
Ok I'll let you be ambiguous about the first question. People are capable of negatively affecting others by stealing, lying, harassment, violence or causing emotional harm. That is unhealthy and harmful to society. We live in a pluralistic society and your religious Ideas of "right vs. wrong" may be completely at odds with another person's views on the subject. Evangelicals believe that you and I worship a false Jesus and that you are not a Christian. Does their "lifestyle" harm you or I?
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
does their lifetyles harm you and I? at times they do when there are large enough groups of said people to actually affect / sway society, and tug at the fundamental moral roots of society.
even on a smaller scale if they are able to influece peole away from rightousness it very much has an effect. I provide evidence of this by simply looking at society today vs. 20 years ago this is very evident.
solowookie 3 years ago
Oh man alive if you look at society even 40 years ago black folks were treated less than 2nd class citizens. Women were still not given nearly the opportunities they have today. Those are serious moral problems wookie. I know you have had it pounded into your head that immoral = sexual sins but morality encompasses far more than that narrow view.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
and since when has the gospel been concerned with society?
perhaps you should check your dictionary as one of the definitions of moral is EXACTLY what I have stated. guess that doesn't really fit into your world of slander and persecution though.
blacks folks were treated by 2nd class citizens by SOME!
solowookie 3 years ago
One of the definitions not the only definition. If you think that the Gospel wasn't concerned with society then you really don't even begin to know or understand Jesus Christ one bit. Solowookie you really live in a narrow little dreamworld that is so far removed from the real world it is pathetic. To deny that black folks were treated as 2nd class citizens by "SOME" as though the civil rights movement were never even needed makes me seriously question your sanity.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
you really are talking yourself into circles now. arguing the fact that not all treated the blacks the same? arguing the definition of moral when my definition was not wrong?
now you've decided you are an expert on Christ so where will you try to turn this conversation next?
you are simply trying to argue and fight... take it out on somebody else. what you are looking for is not here sorry. I do not hate you I simply don't agree with you.
solowookie 3 years ago
What I wrote tonight was a response to a post you wrote. My response is as follows:
1) Whenever you hear that someone has been "immoral" Mormons think of sexual immorality and rarely think of the immorality of bigotry and racism. They don't equate the term immoral with dishonesty and lying.
2) Jesus was an activist for the poor and the downtrodden. He spoke out for them.
"take it out on somebody else?" LOL Oh boy. I can't believe some of the things you write sometimes. It's disturbing.
Jacksonholenativ 3 years ago
and yet you take every occasion to slander all in the name of feeling others are bigost, and racist. so what is it that you teach an eye for an eye? to wrongs make a right?
if you feel we are so wrong where does that put your actions?
Christ was an activist for those who will follow him. he spoke in parables to hide the mysteries of heavan from those who do not earnest seek him. those who are poor and downtrodden are not necessarliy those who follow Christ.
solowookie 3 years ago