Maybe if you did not use this scripture out of contexxt moron. Evil came from the Hebrew Rah which also can mean clamity adveristy etc. It's not talking about moral evil. God is talking to Israel at the time and what was Israel then? SAVED, In it's proper context it is distress correction God brings not Genreal Evil. The God you preach is a dictator. The One true God of the Universe is NOT a dictator. Why bother preaching if your a calvinist
@deancrawford06 Well moron, if you had any ability of understanding you would realize I dealt with this objection in the video! As far as preaching is concerned we preach for 3 reasons, #1 God commands us to, #2 we have no idea who the elect are, so we must assume that everyone in the world is of the elect, #3 preaching is the means that God has ordained to bring His elect to Himself, in other word, no preaching no one saved! BTW, God is a Dictator, 2Pet 2:1 Lord is DESPOT!
@ele12957returns Here Ed, to show you I am not a hypocrite I am posting your comment here.
This is a comment left to me by ele12957returns
"you read the bible the same way, in ur mind you delete what doesn't line up with Calvinism.
You demand of others what you refuse to provide for them. That is called hypocrisy! I know you will delete this comment but I know you read it and that is fine for me."
it's ironic how people can't accept the LORD for who He is and for what He does, and he doesn't hide it or lie about it. When we say " I want to be accepted for who I am" Pray for wisdom if you truly have a relationship with Him, pray for a relationship if you don't truly have one. "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands ALL men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30
@JesusforLife2 You asked "Is evil the opposite of peace?" Yes it is. In this context shalom means Peace with God, "that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel" "Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it" "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways"
שׁלם שׁלום shâlôm shâlôm shaw-lome', shaw-lome' safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
Natural evil is the perfect opposite of this word which has nothing to do with moral good.
@1689Baptist We know how God can create natural evil since it is a thing. How would God go about creating moral evil which isn't a thing? This would require him to do evil since evil is an action or lack of action towards what God says is evil.
@1689Baptist I can't find one verse where shalom is used as moral evil instead of non-calamity. All throughout genesis it isn't used in the verses about the tree of knowledge of good (Towb) and evil (Ra). Or when Joseph's brothers meant evil when God meant it for good (Towb) in genesis 50:20.
@JesusforLife2 You said, "I can't find one verse where shalom is used as moral evil" Of course shalom does not mean moral evil, I never said it did. It means "peace with God" in the context of Is.45:7 b/c of all the references to "righteousness", "salvation", etc listed above. Therefore the opposite of "peace with God"(righteousness, salvation) is evil, wickedness.
@1689Baptist I meant to say "moral good". You said the verse is stating God creates moral evil. War (calamity) is the opposite of peace with God. Shalom is used over 200+ times and never refers to ethical good. Every time good is used in contrast of moral evil, the Hebrew word Towb is used and not shalom. There are even verses where shalom and towb are in the same sentence with Ra and shalom is used as peace why Towb is used as moral good. Making shalom special in one verse isn't going to work.
@JesusforLife2 You said, "War (calamity) is the opposite of peace with God." NO, IT IS NOT, I am not making shalom special in this verse, you keep missing the point. shalom means what it means, it means PEACE period, It does not mean ethical good. Now that we understand that it means peace, we must ask peace with what or who? Peace from war, peace with our neighbor? In this case peace is primarily peace with GOD, and the ONLY peace with God is found in Salvation, righteousness.
The opposite of peace with God, SALVATION, IS wickedness. I have not changed the meaning of the word PEACE at all, it has altogether to do with whom we have peace. and there is no peace with God outside of SALVATION, and everything outside of salvation IS SIN period.
@1689Baptist For crying out loud, Jeff... The effects of war is what is refered to in this context. The loss of the harvest, the loss of manpower to work the fields, the loss of food stuffs, the loss of independence, the loss of PEACE. I really cannot believe how adamant you are in maintaining the God of Christianity CREATES moral evil... It is truly unbelievable...
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Im more interested in the logical aspect of this. How can God create moral evil when morality is an action or lack of action. God would have to do evil in order to "create" it.
@JesusforLife2 Let me have your e-mail and I will send you the audio book of "God and Evil Problem Solved" By Gordon H Clark. It really answers this statement, "God would have to do evil in order to "create" it". God creates evil by decreeing that it takes place.
@ele12957returns And when you answer the phone I can expect you to tell me the truth? ROFL I don't need Utopiang I have your birthday, and initials, and your admission that your name is Ed, that is all I need.
@ele12957returns "Rev elliot was in the jungles of Laos no internet access and I was posting here every day" ROFL, and a hard har har to you too! Those things are easily accounted for.
@ele12957returns Dude, I have your promo video from your "EdLElliott" channel titled, "The ministry of Ed Elliott, Word of Life World Outreach" so don't lie to me. The claim to have seen the dead raised as a result of your ministry is in the video.
@ele12957returns It was a joke Ed, but you do claim to have seen the dead raised in your crusades, which means you at least had a part in it. God is sovereign, but it His sovereignty He has no desire to raise the dead today.
@RU4theTRUTH It would be even more upright to actually study the bible's original languages, before you exalt yourself as God's chosen messenger, who has been granted the fiat to determine what is heresy and what is not, and who is christian and who is not. Your hypocricy is boundless in this matter.
@RU4theTRUTH You indeed do preach hell. Aside the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about (Gehenna is not eternal hell), how exactly are you holding Satan et al accountable for their actions when you have stated time and again that their actions are not truly their own but predestined by your god? Again, your theology is riddled with inconsistencies, and to patch things up, you cop out with this 'ad hoc' argument that somehow your god is not responsible for evil and sin.
Rev 12v10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12v 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Ezekiel said that their was a cherub in the garden of eden that was perfect?
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the orkmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
God created Satan perfect. Satan turned evil. Ezekiel 28v 12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Jeff, it is a waste of time, to deal with people like fractalfires, and this guy TennesseeOwnsMyBones, as can be seen, by the last 2 hours I wasted with him. I got sucked in yet again, to debating with him. We need to at some point, just shake the dust off our heels, and let God deal with them.
@Haukman66 The tried and true tactic of the calvinist cop-out: "Waste of time, Jeff... let us chosen few shake the dust off our heels and wallow in our own piety..." Again: where does John 9 state that GOD made him blind?
"Calvinists claim that God could not have absolute knowledge of future events unless he actually decreed them to happen. This is a direct attack on the omniscience of God. What kind of power does it take to know something one has already decreed to take place? The proof that the Bible is inspired and God is exactly who He claims to be, is the fact that God knows what men will do in the future WITHOUT divine foreordination of anything." L. M. Vance. To which I say: amen.
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL You really need to read Gordon Clark's book "God and Evil Problem Solved" If you would like I can try to send it to you in an e-book through e-mail.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You said, "Because in the beginning, ALL WAS GOOD AND PLEASING TO GOD. It was SIN that made the sacrifice of Christ a necessity"
You have it wrong, SIN was necessary so that Christ could be sacrificed. Do you really think The Father was going to allow Adam to rob Christ of His ultimate GLORY by not sinning?
@1689Baptist Your view on GLORY is not only biblically incorrect, it verges on the psychopathological. You are saying God lies when he stated that 'ALL WAS GOOD'. All could NEVER have been good, if supralapsarianism is correct, for it would mean that somewhere - per this unbiblical decree - evil and sin already existed.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That is b/c you do not have God's understanding of what good is. Also it is not wrong to say something is good before sin enters even if it is decreed to enter, God is speaking in time at this point, not His eternal decree.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Let me ask you a question, if God has all knowledge from all eternity then He would have to know exactly every thought Hitler had in his mind an eternity before Hitler was born, so who thought those thoughts first God or Hitler? And I if God did not cause those thoughts of Hitlers then who did? Certainly not Hitler b/c those thought were determined an eternity before Hitler was born, if God knew Hitler was going to think them, Hitler could not have done otherwise.
@1689Baptist Again, you confuse omniscience with having to ordain, will and decree sin... This happens when you take out free will. And you are sidestepping the issue... in supralapsarianism, the thoughts of Hitler are not the result of Hitler, the free-willed human, thinking, it is the result of your god having instilled them in him.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones God's omniscience makes free will impossible. If God knows I will go to the store tomorrow then it is impossible for me to get hit by a truck today and be in the hospital tomorrow. If I could then God did not really know it and is not really omniscient. To go back even farther if God knows I am going to type this today then my great, great grandfather could not have been killed before he had any children.
@1689Baptist Again... omniscience does not equate statism, nor fatalism. And it most certainly does not entail that in order for God to be omniscient, he has to will/decree/create evil and sin!
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Once you allow that God is omniscient then you have no other choice but God decreed ALL things, or He really is not omniscient and you are doing nothing more than paying Him platitudes by saying that He is omniscient without His eternal decree.
@1689Baptist You would prove your point if you could scripturally back up the calvinist doctrine of there being an eternal decree. Not several: just one.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Back at the eternal decree... Please cite me one verse that mentions this one, eternal decree." Try this one. Have you not heard that I determined it long ago? I planned from days of old what now I bring to pass, that you should make fortified cities crash into heaps of ruins. (Is. 37:26) Or this: I am God and there is none like me, DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING and from ancient times things not yet done,(Isaiah 46:9-10).
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL You said, "I mean that in creating us, knowing that we could sin, He has caused it by allowing it"
You cannot believe God decreed every detail of the universe to where there is not even one maverick molecule and somehow think sin is excluded. God had to decree every detail of the crimes Hitler committed, but He also decreed every cookie that every grandmother baked for her grandchildren.
@1689Baptist Just answer the question without resorting to more calvinistic scholasticism. In supralapsarianism, Hitler only did what your god had predestined him to do. Hitler was not rebelling against God... then he would have never unleashed WWII and the Holocaust. He was just doing what he was meant to do: follow the decree/will/counsel of your god.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Just answer the question without resorting to more calvinistic scholasticism" Whatever! LOL you like being ambiguous b/c it allows you to blur the lines. In the supralapsarian view Hitler was wicked and broke God's commandments and deserved Hell.
@1689Baptist You really are an artist when it comes to copping out... In supralapsarianism, Hitler was created to break the commandments, and he did not 'deserve' hell, he was already predestined to go to hell - without having done either good or evil. Do you actually understand the basics of supralapsarianism yourself?
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. This is from the WCOF
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL No, God is not the Author of sin, He is the ultimate cause of sin, the author is the one doing the action. I am the author of this comment but God in the ultimate cause.
@1689Baptist No it is not. You can not actually believe that the word 'Ra'ah' means the same in every single verse it appears. CONTEXT is the key. Again: Isaiah 45 speaks of opposites. The opposite of peace is NOT moral evil but calamity.
@Haukman66 Are you serious? Is God punishing David here out of his sheer good pleasure? What has brought about the wrath of God over David in these verses? David's SIN of sleeping with a married woman, and having her rightful husband murdered. God's response: calamities on the house of David.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Evil is Evil! You said God cant look upon it, nor decree it, nor even look at it. But that verse says, God is specifically going to bring evil on David! You are refuted.
@Haukman66 Please... before you start this 'refuting' game will you study the original language? 'Evil' here is translated as calamity. Do you know Hebrew? And secondly. WHY does God bring calamity on David? Was it out of an eternal decree? You have refuted absolutely nothing.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Do you know Hebrew? I know what the word Ra means. You however, just want to pick "calamity". It means more than that. You should know this by now. Of course it was an eternal decree. Have you not looked at the scripture I have posted? God declares the END from the Beginning!
@Haukman66 Exactly. Ra'ah means more than that. That is why an understanding of Hebrew is necessary to establish the correct meaning of the word. Which can only be done when one understands the context in which it is written. And your claim that 'God declares the end from the beginning' is somehow proof of calvinistic predestination is beyond ludicrous. What does God declare? What does God decree? What does God counsel?
@Haukman66 God responded toward MORAL EVIL, evil committed by David. Or are you saying that David was foreordained to covet the wife of another, and predestined to murder Uria's husband? If your answer is 'yes', then David is not breaking any commandments, he is actually obeying his pre-programmed, divine role in life.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You have no understanding whatsoever. Man is responsible for his sin. Go back and read Pauls argument on that very topic in Romans 9. You will say to me then, "why does he still find fault? For who can resist His will?"
@Haukman66 You will have to do better than coming up with Romans 9. First of all, please tell me where in Romans 9 Paul mentions anything even remotely similar to the supralapsarist dogma of predestination toward salvation and predestination toward damnation. Secondly, what does Paul say in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 about those very same vessels? Third, if anything, Romans 9 destroys the supralapsarist position that God creates (moral) evil... for what says Paul?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Vessels of honor, and vessels of dishonor. Where in 2Tim. does it say, that the vessels for dishonor, go to heaven? It says, specifically, those who are cleansed from what is dishonorable, will be set apart as holy. That is the church! We are set apart from the world.
@Haukman66 And what does it say, specifically...? "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." Please rhyme this with your idea that man cannot purge himself of anything.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What do you think "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" means? Maybe a spank on the bottom, and a "bad boy"? Gimme a break!
@Haukman66 Wait... destruction is hell now? So destroying something, as in making it dissappear completely, is now actually: living on in hell? Vessels of wrath have the choice, per 2 Timothy 2:20-21, to purge themselves and become vessels of honour.
@1689Baptist Simple? He creates something he cannot even look at? How is that sovereign? Why would God willingy create something - sin and evil - which he despises? I again refer to Jeremia 7:30-31.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You said, "Simple? He creates something he cannot even look at?" You can't be that dumb, again this is an anthropomorphism! God see and looks at all sin, if He didn't He could not keep record to judge.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Do I really have to explain that 'seeing' here means that God cannot stand seeing sin and evil happen? " Then why doesnt HE stop it?
@Haukman66 For the Judgment, obviously. In order for God's Judgment to be holy and righteous, the sinner will have to account for his OWN actions, lest no man will state that "the devil (or: the calvinist god) made me do it."
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL Excuse me...? I have said time and again that the proper translation of 'Ra'ah' in Isaiah 45:7 is indeed calamity. It is Baptist1689 who is ADAMANT that the correct translation should be 'moral evil'. It is such interpretation that is repugnant to reason, spirituality and the character of God. God does NOT create, will, decree or even THINK of moral evil (Jeremia 7:30-31). He reacts to moral evil with calamity.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "God does NOT create, will, decree or even THINK of moral evil (Jeremia 7:30-31). He reacts to moral evil with calamity. " LOL. Scripture refutes you over and over again. Did not God decree/predestinate the death of Christ? And was the very acts of the people who crucified Jesus, evil?! Think!!!!
@Haukman66 What brought about the death of Christ? EVIL. Whose evil? Man's evil. If Scripture refutes me, please provide me with one single verse that states that per one eternal decree, God has willed and created moral evil.
@Haukman66 There is a difference. You believe God willfully decreed for evil and sin to exist. This, somehow, to have all his attributes shown. You confuse omniscience with God having to ordain evil and sin. You believe God arbitrarily saves some and damns others... all for 'his glory'. You also believe that God lied when he said that, in the beginning, all was GOOD. This means that evil and sin did not exist.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your humanism is starting to really show! When God said, in Gen. 1, that 'it was very good", HE was speaking of His creation, that HE created during the creation week. There was no sin yet. Got context? Doesnt seem that you do!
@Haukman66 And your supralapsarian calvinism is beginning to show... or rather, a complete misunderstanding of it. You just said that God decreed all. Now you say there was no sin yet. How could there have been no sin when your god has already decreed that it should exist? It was in a storing room?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Now your just talking stupid. LOL." Duh...How could there have been no sin when your god has already decreed that it should exist?" Ummm...maybe cuz He decreed it to happen, when HE wanted it to happen. Just a thought.
@Haukman66 ... then you are contrasting Psalm 5:4. You are basically saying that evil and sin somehow dwelled in God's vicinity somewhere, only to be unleashed when he saw fit. No evil dwells with God. Yet you say evil does dwell with God.
@Haukman66 Seriously... as your god is sovereign, the ultimate cause of all, the alfa and omega, where exactly did evil come from if not from his own decree, when neither devils nor men existed? Supralapsarianists say: it came from God himself. What does Psalm 5:4 say? EVIL CANNOT DWELL WITH GOD. Please explain.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Where did evil come from? I said from the beginning that God decreed it. Man did not exist either, but man was created. Was he not? Evil cannot dwell with God? Yep. Evil men cannot dwell with God, and has no communion with Him. As it goes on to say, in verse 5, The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.
@Haukman66 It does not say 'evil men'. It says 'evil'. I understand you want to read 'evil men' here, otherwise your entire theology collapses. But it does not say that. It simply says 'evil'.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones My entire theology collapses? LOL. On one little verse you have led, on a silly rabbit trail? NOT. It doesnt say men, but the context says, it is men!
@Haukman66 And here come the personal attacks. The fact is, dear Haukman, you espouse a theology that is flawed from the core, and whenever this is pointed out to you, instead of actually answering questions, you come up with a dime-a-dozen Calvinist apologies, throw around Romans 9, and finally use ad hominems to somehow convince yourself and others that you actually have a valid point... Try again.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, you reading things into comments, like you do with scripture. I asked you, "Do you have a life"? You seem to spend alot of time on Jeffs comment boards. I was asking a simple question.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Proverbs 16:4 states, The Lord has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. WHAT? God made/created the wicked? Hmm....Solomon must have known or understood something, you have no understanding about.
@Haukman66 Oh, Proverbs 16:4... the OTHER calvinist favorite. Here is the proper context: "All creation has but one author (Gen. 1:1, John 1:13) and one end (Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11). God mentions a particualr thing he created just like he does elsewhere (Col. 1.16, Gen. 1:16) and a certain event to bring about his purposes, just like he does elsewhere (Rom 9:17, Phil. 2:9-11). The verse is discussing the use God makes of his CREATION, not the decisions he makes for them." L.M. Vance.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I am asking you again, why are people born deaf, or blind? Is it something, their sin causes? As you say, God only causes calamity, and that, because of the wickedness they have done.
@Haukman66 Man was made upright (Ecc. 7:29). Through the sin of a man (read: the sin of MAN, not the decree of God to have man sin), creation has been corrupted... Even Satan was once perfect (Eze. 28:15-17). What did he do to lose this state? He sinned. Read: HE sinned. Not: God decreed him to sin.
@Haukman66 Because of the corruption of creation through sin, as I have stated earlier. The Fall of man brought about this corruption. As we read in John 9:1, someone is not born blind because he or his parents have sinned. Blindness is a result of Adam's action in the Garden which has brought sin and evil into the world. Jesus is the one who is able to correct this corruption: as he does with the man in John.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That is NOT what Jesus states in John 9! He says, he was born blind, (God made him that way) . For what? verse 3- so that the works of God might be displayed! You failed dude. Sorry.
@Haukman66 And which are those works? The correction of the corruption brought on by Adam. Also, where does it state that God MADE him that way? It is the corruption of the world that MADE him that way, and God's works are shown through him by taking away the blindness. Please explain: what else should we read in the word 'works'?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The works Jesus are talking about, is Him healing him at that point.
Here is a biblical lesson for you. God makes them blind, deaf, mute, dumb. Ex. 4:11- Then the Lord said to him, "who has made mans mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
@Haukman66 So you are now taking a verse from Exodus and compare it with a verse from John... Remember what you said a while back? Something about context?
@Haukman66 It is actually quite sickening that you would use Exodus 4:11 as proof for God making people blind, deaf, mute or whatever. God has made the PEOPLE, their ailments are the product of the Fall. If anything, this verse emphasizes that people with physical and mental defects are still MADE BY GOD. THAT is the meaning of the verse. Why else would Moses say what he says later on in Deu 32:4?
@Haukman66 What did Moses say to God in Exodus 4? That he is a stutterer and therefore not suited for the task given him. What does God mean when he says what he says in Exodus 4:11? That he still has made the MAN Moses, and he will HELP him speak. To actually use Exodus 4:11 as some kind of explanation for God creating sick people, is akin to blasphemy. The sick are indeed still people made by GOD. Their sickness is brought on by the FALL. THAT is why Jesus had to come and did.
@Haukman66 Squirming? If I were, I'd be practicing the oft-used method of some of your brethren on this section by either completely changing the subject, damning my opponents to hell or copping out with the "you just don't understand"-one liner.
God is very clear on sin: He did not command it, nor spake it, neither came it into His mind (Jer. 19:5). Pray tell how supralapsarianism is biblical, along with this notion of there being an eternal decree, when God himself indicates that people do things he does NOT command, NOT will, nor even THOUGHT of. Your god decrees things he didn't think of? How's that sovereign?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That I did not command or nor spake it, nor did it come into my mind. It never came into Gods mind, to command it or speak it! Is that too hard to grasp? Did God command the crucifixion of Christ? NOPE. But did He decree it? Yep! Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28.
@Haukman66 Hold on now... Are you now saying your god is subjected to his decree? Are you saying he doesn't WILL sin and evil yet DECREES it just the same? Are you saying your god has two wills? Are you saying your god works through secrets?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I am gonna let you know right now, I am not gonna waste my time on you here with you arguing over the words of God. I can not make you see the truth. Only God can. Well, at least you would argue that point too. But I have spoken Gods truth here, and I would encourage you to seek the Lord on this. I'll pray for you as well.
@Haukman66 That is because you do not speak the truth, nor know it. And your lack of exegetical capacities, knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics make this very clear.
Maybe if you did not use this scripture out of contexxt moron. Evil came from the Hebrew Rah which also can mean clamity adveristy etc. It's not talking about moral evil. God is talking to Israel at the time and what was Israel then? SAVED, In it's proper context it is distress correction God brings not Genreal Evil. The God you preach is a dictator. The One true God of the Universe is NOT a dictator. Why bother preaching if your a calvinist
deancrawford06 4 months ago
@deancrawford06 Well moron, if you had any ability of understanding you would realize I dealt with this objection in the video! As far as preaching is concerned we preach for 3 reasons, #1 God commands us to, #2 we have no idea who the elect are, so we must assume that everyone in the world is of the elect, #3 preaching is the means that God has ordained to bring His elect to Himself, in other word, no preaching no one saved! BTW, God is a Dictator, 2Pet 2:1 Lord is DESPOT!
1689Baptist 4 months ago
@ele12957returns Here Ed, to show you I am not a hypocrite I am posting your comment here.
This is a comment left to me by ele12957returns
"you read the bible the same way, in ur mind you delete what doesn't line up with Calvinism.
You demand of others what you refuse to provide for them. That is called hypocrisy! I know you will delete this comment but I know you read it and that is fine for me."
1689Baptist 6 months ago
it's ironic how people can't accept the LORD for who He is and for what He does, and he doesn't hide it or lie about it. When we say " I want to be accepted for who I am" Pray for wisdom if you truly have a relationship with Him, pray for a relationship if you don't truly have one. "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands ALL men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30
Vendola3 6 months ago
Even looking in isaiah 5:20:
"Woe to those who call evil good (Towb), and good (Towb) evil.."
There are literally over hundreds of verses similar to this in multiple books and shalom is never used.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
Another refutation of this video: Light is the opposite of darkness. Is evil the opposite of peace? Nope.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@JesusforLife2 You asked "Is evil the opposite of peace?" Yes it is. In this context shalom means Peace with God, "that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel" "Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it" "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways"
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist
שׁלם שׁלום shâlôm shâlôm shaw-lome', shaw-lome' safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
Natural evil is the perfect opposite of this word which has nothing to do with moral good.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@1689Baptist We know how God can create natural evil since it is a thing. How would God go about creating moral evil which isn't a thing? This would require him to do evil since evil is an action or lack of action towards what God says is evil.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@1689Baptist I can't find one verse where shalom is used as moral evil instead of non-calamity. All throughout genesis it isn't used in the verses about the tree of knowledge of good (Towb) and evil (Ra). Or when Joseph's brothers meant evil when God meant it for good (Towb) in genesis 50:20.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@JesusforLife2 You said, "I can't find one verse where shalom is used as moral evil" Of course shalom does not mean moral evil, I never said it did. It means "peace with God" in the context of Is.45:7 b/c of all the references to "righteousness", "salvation", etc listed above. Therefore the opposite of "peace with God"(righteousness, salvation) is evil, wickedness.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist I meant to say "moral good". You said the verse is stating God creates moral evil. War (calamity) is the opposite of peace with God. Shalom is used over 200+ times and never refers to ethical good. Every time good is used in contrast of moral evil, the Hebrew word Towb is used and not shalom. There are even verses where shalom and towb are in the same sentence with Ra and shalom is used as peace why Towb is used as moral good. Making shalom special in one verse isn't going to work.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@JesusforLife2 You said, "War (calamity) is the opposite of peace with God." NO, IT IS NOT, I am not making shalom special in this verse, you keep missing the point. shalom means what it means, it means PEACE period, It does not mean ethical good. Now that we understand that it means peace, we must ask peace with what or who? Peace from war, peace with our neighbor? In this case peace is primarily peace with GOD, and the ONLY peace with God is found in Salvation, righteousness.
cont...
1689Baptist 6 months ago
Cont...
The opposite of peace with God, SALVATION, IS wickedness. I have not changed the meaning of the word PEACE at all, it has altogether to do with whom we have peace. and there is no peace with God outside of SALVATION, and everything outside of salvation IS SIN period.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@JesusforLife2
Oh, and BTW, since when is WAR not a moral evil? Think about that. I don't know if you would want to classify WAR as a (calamity).
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist For crying out loud, Jeff... The effects of war is what is refered to in this context. The loss of the harvest, the loss of manpower to work the fields, the loss of food stuffs, the loss of independence, the loss of PEACE. I really cannot believe how adamant you are in maintaining the God of Christianity CREATES moral evil... It is truly unbelievable...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Im more interested in the logical aspect of this. How can God create moral evil when morality is an action or lack of action. God would have to do evil in order to "create" it.
JesusforLife2 6 months ago
@JesusforLife2 Let me have your e-mail and I will send you the audio book of "God and Evil Problem Solved" By Gordon H Clark. It really answers this statement, "God would have to do evil in order to "create" it". God creates evil by decreeing that it takes place.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns And when you answer the phone I can expect you to tell me the truth? ROFL I don't need Utopiang I have your birthday, and initials, and your admission that your name is Ed, that is all I need.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns "Rev elliot was in the jungles of Laos no internet access and I was posting here every day" ROFL, and a hard har har to you too! Those things are easily accounted for.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns ROFL, what an idiot you are, it has never been proven except in your warped mind. LOL
If you don't want people to think it is you, take that promo down. he he
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns Dude, I have your promo video from your "EdLElliott" channel titled, "The ministry of Ed Elliott, Word of Life World Outreach" so don't lie to me. The claim to have seen the dead raised as a result of your ministry is in the video.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns It was a joke Ed, but you do claim to have seen the dead raised in your crusades, which means you at least had a part in it. God is sovereign, but it His sovereignty He has no desire to raise the dead today.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@ele12957returns Hey Ed, have you raised any dead lately?
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@RU4theTRUTH Absolutely, I have found that if I want the last word I have to delete his last comment, b/c it NEVER ends.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@RU4theTRUTH It would be even more upright to actually study the bible's original languages, before you exalt yourself as God's chosen messenger, who has been granted the fiat to determine what is heresy and what is not, and who is christian and who is not. Your hypocricy is boundless in this matter.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@RU4theTRUTH Look at the title of this video. It specifically states that God CREATES evil. Do you agree?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@RU4theTRUTH You indeed do preach hell. Aside the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about (Gehenna is not eternal hell), how exactly are you holding Satan et al accountable for their actions when you have stated time and again that their actions are not truly their own but predestined by your god? Again, your theology is riddled with inconsistencies, and to patch things up, you cop out with this 'ad hoc' argument that somehow your god is not responsible for evil and sin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i can recommend you to a excellent website and lesson. the website is the
theisraelofgod
the lesson can be found in there text lesson section called
What or who is Satan?
ozelladams 6 months ago
Rev 12v10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
satan was cast out from heaven to earth
ozelladams 6 months ago
in Rev 12 we can read where satan went evil.
Rev 12v 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
ozelladams 6 months ago
Ezekiel said that their was a cherub in the garden of eden that was perfect?
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
ozelladams 6 months ago
Ezekiel 28 reveals to us that God created satan perfect. Satan decided to turn evil
God created evil.
very simple
ozelladams 6 months ago
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the orkmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
ozelladams 6 months ago
God created Satan perfect. Satan turned evil. Ezekiel 28v 12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
ozelladams 6 months ago
Jeff, it is a waste of time, to deal with people like fractalfires, and this guy TennesseeOwnsMyBones, as can be seen, by the last 2 hours I wasted with him. I got sucked in yet again, to debating with him. We need to at some point, just shake the dust off our heels, and let God deal with them.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 The tried and true tactic of the calvinist cop-out: "Waste of time, Jeff... let us chosen few shake the dust off our heels and wallow in our own piety..." Again: where does John 9 state that GOD made him blind?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
* Uria = Batsheba's husband, of course.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
"Calvinists claim that God could not have absolute knowledge of future events unless he actually decreed them to happen. This is a direct attack on the omniscience of God. What kind of power does it take to know something one has already decreed to take place? The proof that the Bible is inspired and God is exactly who He claims to be, is the fact that God knows what men will do in the future WITHOUT divine foreordination of anything." L. M. Vance. To which I say: amen.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL No, no it is in audio not print.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL You really need to read Gordon Clark's book "God and Evil Problem Solved" If you would like I can try to send it to you in an e-book through e-mail.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Yes, a question pondered on for ages by the most wise and scholarly of men, is 'solved' by the calvinist Gordon Clark. Pretentious much?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL Well, that still doesn't mean that God created sin in order to show these attributes.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No sin in existence, no way of demonstrating wrath and justice, plus no need for mercy, grace.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist ... Because in the beginning, ALL WAS GOOD AND PLEASING TO GOD. It was SIN that made the sacrifice of Christ a necessity.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You said, "Because in the beginning, ALL WAS GOOD AND PLEASING TO GOD. It was SIN that made the sacrifice of Christ a necessity"
You have it wrong, SIN was necessary so that Christ could be sacrificed. Do you really think The Father was going to allow Adam to rob Christ of His ultimate GLORY by not sinning?
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Your view on GLORY is not only biblically incorrect, it verges on the psychopathological. You are saying God lies when he stated that 'ALL WAS GOOD'. All could NEVER have been good, if supralapsarianism is correct, for it would mean that somewhere - per this unbiblical decree - evil and sin already existed.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That is b/c you do not have God's understanding of what good is. Also it is not wrong to say something is good before sin enters even if it is decreed to enter, God is speaking in time at this point, not His eternal decree.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist wow, just wow..
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Let me ask you a question, if God has all knowledge from all eternity then He would have to know exactly every thought Hitler had in his mind an eternity before Hitler was born, so who thought those thoughts first God or Hitler? And I if God did not cause those thoughts of Hitlers then who did? Certainly not Hitler b/c those thought were determined an eternity before Hitler was born, if God knew Hitler was going to think them, Hitler could not have done otherwise.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Again, you confuse omniscience with having to ordain, will and decree sin... This happens when you take out free will. And you are sidestepping the issue... in supralapsarianism, the thoughts of Hitler are not the result of Hitler, the free-willed human, thinking, it is the result of your god having instilled them in him.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones God's omniscience makes free will impossible. If God knows I will go to the store tomorrow then it is impossible for me to get hit by a truck today and be in the hospital tomorrow. If I could then God did not really know it and is not really omniscient. To go back even farther if God knows I am going to type this today then my great, great grandfather could not have been killed before he had any children.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Again... omniscience does not equate statism, nor fatalism. And it most certainly does not entail that in order for God to be omniscient, he has to will/decree/create evil and sin!
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Once you allow that God is omniscient then you have no other choice but God decreed ALL things, or He really is not omniscient and you are doing nothing more than paying Him platitudes by saying that He is omniscient without His eternal decree.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Back at the eternal decree... Please cite me one verse that mentions this one, eternal decree.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I have just proved my point. If this is your best defense, give up!
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist You would prove your point if you could scripturally back up the calvinist doctrine of there being an eternal decree. Not several: just one.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Remember, sola scriptura.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones It is not a violation of sola scriptura to logically think through and compare the Scriptures.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Cop out.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Back at the eternal decree... Please cite me one verse that mentions this one, eternal decree." Try this one. Have you not heard that I determined it long ago? I planned from days of old what now I bring to pass, that you should make fortified cities crash into heaps of ruins. (Is. 37:26) Or this: I am God and there is none like me, DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING and from ancient times things not yet done,(Isaiah 46:9-10).
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Pray tell what these verses have to do with the calvinist doctrine of the decree on salvation and damnation.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL You said, "I mean that in creating us, knowing that we could sin, He has caused it by allowing it"
You cannot believe God decreed every detail of the universe to where there is not even one maverick molecule and somehow think sin is excluded. God had to decree every detail of the crimes Hitler committed, but He also decreed every cookie that every grandmother baked for her grandchildren.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist So Hitler was actually just doing your god's will?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You are using the word WILL ambiguously.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Just answer the question without resorting to more calvinistic scholasticism. In supralapsarianism, Hitler only did what your god had predestined him to do. Hitler was not rebelling against God... then he would have never unleashed WWII and the Holocaust. He was just doing what he was meant to do: follow the decree/will/counsel of your god.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Just answer the question without resorting to more calvinistic scholasticism" Whatever! LOL you like being ambiguous b/c it allows you to blur the lines. In the supralapsarian view Hitler was wicked and broke God's commandments and deserved Hell.
1689Baptist 6 months ago
@1689Baptist You really are an artist when it comes to copping out... In supralapsarianism, Hitler was created to break the commandments, and he did not 'deserve' hell, he was already predestined to go to hell - without having done either good or evil. Do you actually understand the basics of supralapsarianism yourself?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL Amen, I agree wholeheartedly. Jeff, however, believes that we sin because God has created us to sin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. This is from the WCOF
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist WCOF? I thought you were all about SOLA SCRIPTURA? I take it you mean Sola Scriptura and Westminster Confession of Faith.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL 'Indirect cause'? Please explain.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL No, God is not the Author of sin, He is the ultimate cause of sin, the author is the one doing the action. I am the author of this comment but God in the ultimate cause.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist That is the SAME THING, Jeff... Quit copping out. 'Ultimate cause' and 'author' are one and the same in supralapsarist calvinism.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL Upset? I am just pointing out that obviously calvinists themselves cannot agree on this issue.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL No you have it wrong it is ALL evil God created, the full spectrum from calamity-wickedness, that is what RA means.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist No, that is not the proper translation.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes it is!
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist No it is not. You can not actually believe that the word 'Ra'ah' means the same in every single verse it appears. CONTEXT is the key. Again: Isaiah 45 speaks of opposites. The opposite of peace is NOT moral evil but calamity.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Peace in the context is Peace with God, can we say Righteousness, the antonym of that is wickedness.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Is 2Samuel 12:11 moral evil?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Are you serious? Is God punishing David here out of his sheer good pleasure? What has brought about the wrath of God over David in these verses? David's SIN of sleeping with a married woman, and having her rightful husband murdered. God's response: calamities on the house of David.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Evil is Evil! You said God cant look upon it, nor decree it, nor even look at it. But that verse says, God is specifically going to bring evil on David! You are refuted.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Please... before you start this 'refuting' game will you study the original language? 'Evil' here is translated as calamity. Do you know Hebrew? And secondly. WHY does God bring calamity on David? Was it out of an eternal decree? You have refuted absolutely nothing.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Do you know Hebrew? I know what the word Ra means. You however, just want to pick "calamity". It means more than that. You should know this by now. Of course it was an eternal decree. Have you not looked at the scripture I have posted? God declares the END from the Beginning!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Exactly. Ra'ah means more than that. That is why an understanding of Hebrew is necessary to establish the correct meaning of the word. Which can only be done when one understands the context in which it is written. And your claim that 'God declares the end from the beginning' is somehow proof of calvinistic predestination is beyond ludicrous. What does God declare? What does God decree? What does God counsel?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@Haukman66 God responded toward MORAL EVIL, evil committed by David. Or are you saying that David was foreordained to covet the wife of another, and predestined to murder Uria's husband? If your answer is 'yes', then David is not breaking any commandments, he is actually obeying his pre-programmed, divine role in life.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You have no understanding whatsoever. Man is responsible for his sin. Go back and read Pauls argument on that very topic in Romans 9. You will say to me then, "why does he still find fault? For who can resist His will?"
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 You will have to do better than coming up with Romans 9. First of all, please tell me where in Romans 9 Paul mentions anything even remotely similar to the supralapsarist dogma of predestination toward salvation and predestination toward damnation. Secondly, what does Paul say in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 about those very same vessels? Third, if anything, Romans 9 destroys the supralapsarist position that God creates (moral) evil... for what says Paul?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Vessels of honor, and vessels of dishonor. Where in 2Tim. does it say, that the vessels for dishonor, go to heaven? It says, specifically, those who are cleansed from what is dishonorable, will be set apart as holy. That is the church! We are set apart from the world.
Haukman66 6 months ago
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@Haukman66 And what does it say, specifically...? "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." Please rhyme this with your idea that man cannot purge himself of anything.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Also: where does it say in Romans 9 that vessels of dishonour go to hell?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What do you think "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" means? Maybe a spank on the bottom, and a "bad boy"? Gimme a break!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Wait... destruction is hell now? So destroying something, as in making it dissappear completely, is now actually: living on in hell? Vessels of wrath have the choice, per 2 Timothy 2:20-21, to purge themselves and become vessels of honour.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@1689Baptist Did God create sin?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes!
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist Really? I refer to Habakuk 1:13. Please explain how God, who cannot even LOOK at evil and sin, still CREATES evil and sin?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Very simple, He creates it.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist Simple? He creates something he cannot even look at? How is that sovereign? Why would God willingy create something - sin and evil - which he despises? I again refer to Jeremia 7:30-31.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You said, "Simple? He creates something he cannot even look at?" You can't be that dumb, again this is an anthropomorphism! God see and looks at all sin, if He didn't He could not keep record to judge.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist Do I really have to explain that 'seeing' here means that God cannot stand seeing sin and evil happen?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Do I really have to explain that 'seeing' here means that God cannot stand seeing sin and evil happen? " Then why doesnt HE stop it?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 For the Judgment, obviously. In order for God's Judgment to be holy and righteous, the sinner will have to account for his OWN actions, lest no man will state that "the devil (or: the calvinist god) made me do it."
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@BEAUTIFULGOSPEL Excuse me...? I have said time and again that the proper translation of 'Ra'ah' in Isaiah 45:7 is indeed calamity. It is Baptist1689 who is ADAMANT that the correct translation should be 'moral evil'. It is such interpretation that is repugnant to reason, spirituality and the character of God. God does NOT create, will, decree or even THINK of moral evil (Jeremia 7:30-31). He reacts to moral evil with calamity.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "God does NOT create, will, decree or even THINK of moral evil (Jeremia 7:30-31). He reacts to moral evil with calamity. " LOL. Scripture refutes you over and over again. Did not God decree/predestinate the death of Christ? And was the very acts of the people who crucified Jesus, evil?! Think!!!!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 What brought about the death of Christ? EVIL. Whose evil? Man's evil. If Scripture refutes me, please provide me with one single verse that states that per one eternal decree, God has willed and created moral evil.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You have not answered the question. Was not the death of Christ, an evil act? Scripture tells us, God decreed it to happen.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Why was it God's purpose to sacrifice his Son? Can you answer that?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones YEs, of course I can answer that. His purpose, ultimately was to Glorify Himself!! What a wonderful Saviour indeed!!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Really? I believe the purpose, as can be found in the four gospels, is to redeem mankind with its Creator. THAT is the glory of God.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You just stated, what I already said. The glory of God! Get a clue.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 There is a difference. You believe God willfully decreed for evil and sin to exist. This, somehow, to have all his attributes shown. You confuse omniscience with God having to ordain evil and sin. You believe God arbitrarily saves some and damns others... all for 'his glory'. You also believe that God lied when he said that, in the beginning, all was GOOD. This means that evil and sin did not exist.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your humanism is starting to really show! When God said, in Gen. 1, that 'it was very good", HE was speaking of His creation, that HE created during the creation week. There was no sin yet. Got context? Doesnt seem that you do!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 And your supralapsarian calvinism is beginning to show... or rather, a complete misunderstanding of it. You just said that God decreed all. Now you say there was no sin yet. How could there have been no sin when your god has already decreed that it should exist? It was in a storing room?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Now your just talking stupid. LOL." Duh...How could there have been no sin when your god has already decreed that it should exist?" Ummm...maybe cuz He decreed it to happen, when HE wanted it to happen. Just a thought.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 ... then you are contrasting Psalm 5:4. You are basically saying that evil and sin somehow dwelled in God's vicinity somewhere, only to be unleashed when he saw fit. No evil dwells with God. Yet you say evil does dwell with God.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Seriously... as your god is sovereign, the ultimate cause of all, the alfa and omega, where exactly did evil come from if not from his own decree, when neither devils nor men existed? Supralapsarianists say: it came from God himself. What does Psalm 5:4 say? EVIL CANNOT DWELL WITH GOD. Please explain.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Where did evil come from? I said from the beginning that God decreed it. Man did not exist either, but man was created. Was he not? Evil cannot dwell with God? Yep. Evil men cannot dwell with God, and has no communion with Him. As it goes on to say, in verse 5, The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 It does not say 'evil men'. It says 'evil'. I understand you want to read 'evil men' here, otherwise your entire theology collapses. But it does not say that. It simply says 'evil'.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones My entire theology collapses? LOL. On one little verse you have led, on a silly rabbit trail? NOT. It doesnt say men, but the context says, it is men!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Context... now you insist on reading words in their proper context... Typical.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yeah, context, something you have not done on this thread since you have been here. Do you have a life?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 And here come the personal attacks. The fact is, dear Haukman, you espouse a theology that is flawed from the core, and whenever this is pointed out to you, instead of actually answering questions, you come up with a dime-a-dozen Calvinist apologies, throw around Romans 9, and finally use ad hominems to somehow convince yourself and others that you actually have a valid point... Try again.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I have not used Ad Hominem. I said he was wrong. Something wrong with that?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 I am refering to your comment that I have 'no life' because you don't like what I say. That is what we call an ad hominem.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, you reading things into comments, like you do with scripture. I asked you, "Do you have a life"? You seem to spend alot of time on Jeffs comment boards. I was asking a simple question.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Oh please. Don't, OK, just don't. We both know what's going on, OK?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones .......Okay....????
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 And yes, humans were created... but they were not inherently evil. When did evil enter the world...? When MAN disobeyed God.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Proverbs 16:4 states, The Lord has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. WHAT? God made/created the wicked? Hmm....Solomon must have known or understood something, you have no understanding about.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Oh, Proverbs 16:4... the OTHER calvinist favorite. Here is the proper context: "All creation has but one author (Gen. 1:1, John 1:13) and one end (Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11). God mentions a particualr thing he created just like he does elsewhere (Col. 1.16, Gen. 1:16) and a certain event to bring about his purposes, just like he does elsewhere (Rom 9:17, Phil. 2:9-11). The verse is discussing the use God makes of his CREATION, not the decisions he makes for them." L.M. Vance.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones YEAH, right! LM Vance? Who is he? Another Roman Catholic apologist?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Roman Catholic? I don't think so. I believe he is a Baptist.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones He's wrong.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Why are people born deaf, or blind?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 What does Jesus say?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Why dont you tell me what Jesus said?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 It should be child's play for some one who is part of the 'elect' to find the verses wherein Jesus speaks of this issue.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I am asking you again, why are people born deaf, or blind? Is it something, their sin causes? As you say, God only causes calamity, and that, because of the wickedness they have done.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Man was made upright (Ecc. 7:29). Through the sin of a man (read: the sin of MAN, not the decree of God to have man sin), creation has been corrupted... Even Satan was once perfect (Eze. 28:15-17). What did he do to lose this state? He sinned. Read: HE sinned. Not: God decreed him to sin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones So.....are you gonna answer my question or not?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 I just did.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones NO, you didnt. Why are people born blind, or deaf, or mute?
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Because of the corruption of creation through sin, as I have stated earlier. The Fall of man brought about this corruption. As we read in John 9:1, someone is not born blind because he or his parents have sinned. Blindness is a result of Adam's action in the Garden which has brought sin and evil into the world. Jesus is the one who is able to correct this corruption: as he does with the man in John.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That is NOT what Jesus states in John 9! He says, he was born blind, (God made him that way) . For what? verse 3- so that the works of God might be displayed! You failed dude. Sorry.
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 And which are those works? The correction of the corruption brought on by Adam. Also, where does it state that God MADE him that way? It is the corruption of the world that MADE him that way, and God's works are shown through him by taking away the blindness. Please explain: what else should we read in the word 'works'?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The works Jesus are talking about, is Him healing him at that point.
Here is a biblical lesson for you. God makes them blind, deaf, mute, dumb. Ex. 4:11- Then the Lord said to him, "who has made mans mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
Nuff said!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 So you are now taking a verse from Exodus and compare it with a verse from John... Remember what you said a while back? Something about context?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@Haukman66 It is actually quite sickening that you would use Exodus 4:11 as proof for God making people blind, deaf, mute or whatever. God has made the PEOPLE, their ailments are the product of the Fall. If anything, this verse emphasizes that people with physical and mental defects are still MADE BY GOD. THAT is the meaning of the verse. Why else would Moses say what he says later on in Deu 32:4?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@Haukman66 What did Moses say to God in Exodus 4? That he is a stutterer and therefore not suited for the task given him. What does God mean when he says what he says in Exodus 4:11? That he still has made the MAN Moses, and he will HELP him speak. To actually use Exodus 4:11 as some kind of explanation for God creating sick people, is akin to blasphemy. The sick are indeed still people made by GOD. Their sickness is brought on by the FALL. THAT is why Jesus had to come and did.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones IN other words, it had nothing to do with sin!!
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 It hadn't? I suppose then that Christ's sacrifice also had nothing to do with taking away sin?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones So we can all see here, you squirming, not wanting to answer a simple question. I'll be waiting.....
Haukman66 6 months ago
@Haukman66 Squirming? If I were, I'd be practicing the oft-used method of some of your brethren on this section by either completely changing the subject, damning my opponents to hell or copping out with the "you just don't understand"-one liner.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Why did God send Joseph into slavery in Egypt? Scripture says God did it.
Haukman66 6 months ago
God is very clear on sin: He did not command it, nor spake it, neither came it into His mind (Jer. 19:5). Pray tell how supralapsarianism is biblical, along with this notion of there being an eternal decree, when God himself indicates that people do things he does NOT command, NOT will, nor even THOUGHT of. Your god decrees things he didn't think of? How's that sovereign?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones That I did not command or nor spake it, nor did it come into my mind. It never came into Gods mind, to command it or speak it! Is that too hard to grasp? Did God command the crucifixion of Christ? NOPE. But did He decree it? Yep! Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Hold on now... Are you now saying your god is subjected to his decree? Are you saying he doesn't WILL sin and evil yet DECREES it just the same? Are you saying your god has two wills? Are you saying your god works through secrets?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I am gonna let you know right now, I am not gonna waste my time on you here with you arguing over the words of God. I can not make you see the truth. Only God can. Well, at least you would argue that point too. But I have spoken Gods truth here, and I would encourage you to seek the Lord on this. I'll pray for you as well.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 That is because you do not speak the truth, nor know it. And your lack of exegetical capacities, knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics make this very clear.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Do you actually understand your own belief system? In supralapsarian calvinism, 'prayer' is completely useless.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Prayer is the means God has decreed to carry out His decree. Prayer is a decreed part of the process of God decree.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist Remember sola scriptura... where is there any mention made of this 'one eternal decree'? Cite me a verse.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Its called logic. God is immutable.
1689Baptist 7 months ago