Nonsense. As of Oct 2009, the book is available at Amazon.
Ex-converts normally exaggerate reasons for departure. Plus, wrongdoings are found in any religion, including the glorious Catholic Church...
If "new groups are a threat to Irish democracy", then what to say of America, UK and France?! The Catholic Church is the most totalitarian organization in History, supportive of military dictatorships all over..
The book was not initially available on Amazon due to the legal threat and, due to said legal threat, is still not available in the UK.
Funny how the testimony of ex-Scientologists all point to the same fraud and abuse. Ever wonder why that is? They just got convicted of organised fraud and practicing medicine without a licence in France.
Good luck plugging your straw men. If you felt so strong about those nations/groups you should protest them.
@technotony1227 scientology is a joke. they are either weak minded, or a crook. i think its crooks leading the weak, stealing from the weak. they use psychological tactics, which they denounce, to prey on the weak for profit. these people are a joke, i knocked one around the other day. this cat actually had the balls to step to me after i said what i believed. so he got hurt. is this common? are they usually violent in response to criticism? am i going to have to keep knocking these dicks out?
Anonymous has no proof that the Church of Scientology tried to block the sale of this book on Amazon.
John Duignan said himself in a radiointerview with glosslip that it was a single individual and not the Church of Scientology who threatened legal action against his publisher and Amazon, because this person felt that Duignan made defamatory statements about him in the book.
Anonymous spreads rumours that Scientology would be behind this, although they have no proof and all the stupid little Anonysheep are now going to buy this book. The credibility of John Duignan is questionable. I have read the first 4 chapters on the book and a lot of it is almost 1:1 copies of rumours that you can find on the Internet. Anyone could write a book based on these rumours and halftruths for a quick profit.
This censorship "conspiracy" is nothing than a marketing ploy.
Scientologist threatens legal action for defamation and the book, which is highly revealing about the Scientology enterprise, gets yanked. Having read the book myself I am still searching for anything that could be considered libel and am still coming up short.
And apparently that's a conspiracy? GTFO It is what the cult have been pulling for decades now.
And guess what? The public are cottening on to it.
How can it be 1:1 copies of random rumours when the book simply documents the individual experiences of John Duignan during a large period of his lifespan? How can the Internet concoct rumours which directly relate to someone no one had previously heard about?
Thank you for posting this video, this is why we as parents Tony and Sue are fighting to get our daughter Becky out of the Cult, please keep up your fight. xx
Do you have any comprehension of what he went through?
Having met the dude in person and hearing his story I don't begrudge him some money to help him move on with his life. Call it blood money if you want, but you are simply being disingenuous and little bit ignorant. By writing this book he has done two things - 1)He is letting go of a dark place and 2)he has informed the world about a dangerous cult.
I see, so the element of personal choice is irrelevant to you also? "What was DONE to him" was done apparently at his request for a very long time. He believed himself one of the saviors of humanity and is now attempting to profit from his hubris.
People go into this cult because they choose to; never forget that. Or wait, would you prefer that we did? Life is full of consequences for bad choices. I see little reason to preference $cilontologists in terms of giving them an "out" to free will.
Now I think you're being obtuse on purpose. You're clearly a fairly smart cookie, so you must get the issues. Given this I believe you sir, are a troll. But hey it helps get this video most discussed.
"i thought christians were the caring compassionate sort?"
Not when we're looking at something that looks like this we're not. Everybody's chucking free will out the door along with "repenting" which is regretting what you do FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY DO TO YOU!
If I ever saw a UFO/end of days cult it's this. My partner's ex came a hair's breadth from being at Heaven's Gate. People my family knew died at Jonestown.
Read the part about how Christ deals with blasphemers and heretics. Not so nice
Nonsense, blood money is money made from criminal ventures mainly involving death or abuse. The cult is morally the criminal here because it perverted his desire to do good to do the cults' bidding with all that mission to "clear the planet" rubbish. When your low, like John was, that kind of stuff is very compelling and sucks you in. It will be interesting reading that story, by hook or crook I will get a copy of that book.
Define "Good." Define how "good" arrives from fascism and preaching genocide. Did he not choose to believe the rasher of shite? Did he not swallow the poison koolaid?
I won't pay money to ex-cultists who attempt to profiteer once they've "blown." There should be ZERO "reward" for having been a $cilontologist... and yet it seems it's a fashionable thing to do, leaving and writing a book.
You won't by the book. We get it and it is your choice.
But if you really think that joining a cult is a straightforward choice then you really really need to do your research. People experience difficulties in life, and such difficulties can make people extremely vulnerable to cult recruitment techniques.
This may be a low blow but - what life difficulty allowed the christians to get to you? Think about it.
My faith didn't "get me," and it couldn't possibly keep me in the face of such egocentric bullshit as homo novis. There's a serious difference between living with a place for faith in your life and making a choice to enter a well know cult based on fiction.
To ignore the reality that many of these folks are likely to mirror the organization or they never would have gotten trapped in the first place, is to paint an undeservedly pretty picture of who joins a cult of the form and values of Co$.
they deny that they are a spaceship cult to most scientologists. then when you get to OT111 and you have paid so much money and have been brainwashed/hypnotised enough, they tell you there really was a guy named xenu and that you would not have been able to handle this truth until now. then they tell you to not talk about it, because if people hear about xenu too early they will get sick and die.
Again, what happened to free will and having easy access to information in the technology age. Either what you're saying makes no sense at all, OR the entire campaign of online stuff if useless because apparently they all get "stuck."
They make a conscious decision to enter... they make a conscious decision to stay...
Drop the pompous assumption that people who join cults are insane, evil or somehow deficient.
JD found information on the internet that managed to break the mental stranglehold the cult had over him - proof that an online campaign can have an effect.
Cult members ARE stuck - that's why they are cult members, and why they are so difficult to reach.
Think of the empowering feeling you get from your faith and realise that cults instil the same feeling.
Those who are "empowered" to think of themselves as Gods on Earth, or aliens, deserve what they get. How many decades did it take for JD to get dissatisfied with how they were treating him? When did his saving his own ass become a noble thing?
You want me to give credit to these people for profiteering, and I'm not going to do it. The guy spent 20 years or however long earnestly trying to CLEAR THE PLANET.
I am, what's that got to do with being super careful around Nazis? You are implying it's an ok thing to come on out and write a book to sell for a profit. You maintain we should think of these people as victims rather than accomplices, funders, silent citizens in WWII Germany.
Nope, not going to buy it. People are RESPONSIBLE for their actions. Profiteering off a $cilontology story is like being a FreeZoner full of $cilon hubris about, "I'm doin Ron's work, despite the 'church'"
Yes, and I know what wars are, and what churches are and aren't, and I ever know what free will is.
You're trying to give people excuses for what in the army would be consider "obeying unlawful orders." It didn't work in Nuremberg and it ain't gonna work here.
We disagree on the matter of innocence it would see. People don't join cults unless their thinking is aligned with the cult they join. In or out, they're dangerous if not mad as hatters.
"Think of the empowering feeling you get from your faith and realise that cults instil the same feeling."
Think of WHAT it gives them that hardon for such a philosophy. Apparently you wouldn't see use in that.
The reality is that people are responsible for the CONTENT of the things they believe in; responsible for saying "This is wrong."
You think EVERYBODY should be protesting and saying "this is wrong," but that those who DO "THIS" are all innocent? I refuse to be that fucking gullible.
I see cult members as victims. People can, and do, fall for cult recruitment. The people within the cult really do believe they are helping people, that they can heal the world and that they are fighting for a higher purpose. That is a seriously strong mindfuck that is very difficult to throw off. I do not understand why you seem unfamiliar with this. I am not absolving them of their crimes but I am not going to be ignorant of the reality either.
Hmm let me see.. NO WRONG! You're basically saying the Hitler Youth were suckered; that every Nazi was innocent; that people who are in cults have zero free will.
What you "believe" is fine and dandy, but a more rational and unbiased review of the available academic literature indicates that like Nazi's they feel self-justified in their actions, not that they're deluded innocents.
I'm done with this chat. You wanna hold these folks up as exemplar humans fine, to me they all dangerous flakes.
They may well go to Hell. And the Milgram experiments don't matter at all ultimately. You can pretend like $cilontology is free will raping, but guess what... that's not what Milgram's conclusions mean. Doesn't mean there is no free will, means that you have to have BALLS to excersise it in the face of authority. Typically $cilontologists are BORN FOLLOWERS and of average or less mental ability. That still doesn't get them a "get out of jail free card"
^^ Because they offer empirical evidence that you are wrong?
>>You can pretend like $cilontology is free will raping, but guess what... that's not >>what Milgram's conclusions mean.
^^ Isnt that the central result of the experiement??? That people can be made do extraordinary cruelty under orders from an authority figure??? The precise thing that scientology exploits???
>>Doesn't mean there is no free will, means that you have to have BALLS to >>excersise it in the face of authority.
^^ This is why the Milgram experiment is relevant here the inherent obedience to authority that people have is exploitable. Having balls is another piece of grandstanding sophistry.
>>Typically $cilontologists are BORN FOLLOWERS and of average or less mental >>ability.
^^ Sheer unadulterated bullshit. Idealism and intelligence are vulnerable to cults.
I note that you have still not answered my question. I also note that you have systematically and repeatedly brought up and attacked things I never wrote nor implied. I further note that you appear to be completely and utterly ignorant of what a cult actually is and how it ensnares its victims. You appear to have this notion that only dumb people fall for cults which strikes me as a personal insecurity on your own part. Why is that?
You have this impression that only creative geniuses with pure hearts fall for cults, and moreover that they stay in because their free will has been RIPPED from them at every stage.
Such bullshit ... truly bullshit. People have to buy into things by choice. If cults a SO VERY EFFECTIVE in exploiting "good people," then why aren't they far more successful?
Cults exploit the weak; the feeble minded; those who feel they should have a "special place" in the world and can't accept reality.
You love to paint the idea that $cilontology is full of sweet lil old people who want to make the world a lovely place. FFS read the books. This isn't strawman, it's post WWII fascism! If you're too stupid to see the LITERAL context of the creation of this insanity then fine. These are NOT creative and smart people, these are people with weak ego strength who are completely gullible and looking for an apparently socially "acceptable" alternative to being a Klansman.
How is this for an idea? If you actually responded to things I said and/or implied, and not the strawmen you seem so intent on creating, then it might be possible to have a conversation.
>>these are people with weak ego strength who >>are completely gullible and looking for an >>apparently socially "acceptable" >>alternative to being a Klansman.
Quite simply because you wish to dilute the conversation by completely failing to admit that there is ANY element of free will involved.
Frankly, I refuse to engage in a deeper discussion than this because of that single fact. It's very convenient to blame "that devil weed" or "$cilontology" for everything, but it's simply not the case.
Until that reality is a foundation of dialogue, rather than your self-insistent monologue, I'll just say NO U!
Milgram was loaded in terms of culturally LOADED expertness and authority that derived from thousands of years of tradition; ie. "The Academy." The people giving the test were in a Psych Dept. at Yale, not a Co$ stress table.
At best what Milgram achieved was a study of the effects of seemingly "LEGITIMATE authority issuing immoral orders." There IS a difference.
People who are willing to accept clowns with emeters as LEGIT authorities share certain characteristics. Care to outline them?
Tell me there's no free will operating here. Tell me there aren't common threads to be found in mental illness and susceptibility to cult recruitment.
You need to spend a couple hours on PsychInfo at your local Uni research library's public access terminal and do a lit search of studies of members of cults and characteristics they share. It ain't a pretty "before" picture, and "after" is always worse unless they get out almost immediately.
^^ The part you are missing here is that scientology, like most other successful cults, contains techniques that can generate a greater blind obedience to authority that even that observed in Milgram. A common theme among ex-members is the acknowledgement that the first scientology courses they did provided them with confidence, self-fulfilment, belonging etc. This is the starting step to instilling in the victim.
the belief that that such wins are due to scientology. The whole scam works on the principle that its victims can be made to recognise scientology/Hubbard as an authority figure.
>>There IS a difference.
^^ Thats what cults do they make their authority real to the people they enslave.
Apparently can't put url's here, check your mail for non-specific example of a study of some Moonies. People who don't get suckered share resiliencies that people who do obviously don't. The VAST MAJORITY of people DO NOT get suckered.
You're proposition is that the reason the ones who do get suckered is basically much the same as $cilontology's: they're misunderstood geniuses with noble values who simply haven't been properly recognized UNTIL NOW.
People have to choose to accept that illegitimate authority as having authority / power over them and the fact is that the vast majority of people who reach that point laugh their asses off and walk the fuck away.
Do you think it's the act of a sane individual to make a choice in favor of $cientology when that moment comes? Has it got nothing to do with choices the person's made to that point; by which they led themselves to this act / choice to do so?
The article you linked to describe the members as having the traits you describe which I expected.
The question is did they have those traits BEFORE the indoctrination process? This appears to be the main bone of contention we have. Do you have dox to suggest that people who join cults had these traits before they joined?
Do you have dox that say they don't? I submit even without dox my statement is Occam's Razor and the contention that this is not a case of shared addictive vulnerabilities coinciding with meeting up with something that's "true for them" is false.
If I find something more supportive pre/post I'll let you know though/ Infortunately, that a mental status exam is not a predicate for being gullible / vulnerable to stupidity.
One can infer from the "rejection rate," most do not have this problem.
>>mental status exam is not a predicate for >>being gullible / vulnerable to stupidity.
^^ You also have to factor in times when a person is simply experiencing difficulties. Some people have been recruited shortly after bereavements. One family member believes her brother got recruited because of this.
Now we're talking! There's a vulnerability. What often comes with death of a family member; depression. Depression is an Axis I disorder treatable with therapy and antidepressants. Instead, some turn to God... and apparently some turn to $cilontology.
Why do some hold on to reality and turn to things that are non-self destructive and why do others turn to cults? In the case of a recent family death, what you've just described is the cult preying upon someone having a situational "disorder."
"Given the right sequence of events anybody can fall for a cult."
Actually, I don't buy that line of reasoning. Not everyone presented with a stress test in a crisis or whatever vector of contamination, is going to join something so abusive.
Lots of people are critical thinkers and more cynical / self-protective than to let that sort of shit in their lives NO MATTER WHAT.
I'm sorry people fall for it, but I still maintain the parallels to addictive behavior are too close to be overlooked.
Depression is also a healthy response to loss. When a kid loses their parents, often security is gone, (I've been there). You not only have to deal with the loss, but a whole new set of people, who may or may not want you there. So I think some people put their tears on hold. Sadness & loneliness needs to be felt fully in order to move on. Tears and kindness can go a long way. But you may not feel the freedom to cry and that can cost a lot. A cult might feel like a family. False security.
But the forgotten tears will reemerge and manifest in some other way, (depression, futility, anger) until they're claimed and the primary loss is dealt with.
The "Discussion" between Christians4Tommorrow and themadhair (read all comments to find them) is some of the more interesting reading I have done lately.
Some day the story of L R Hubbard and his Merry Band of Greedy Victimizers will be made into a movie. Then the Public can wrestle with
the complex and troubling question of "Who is the Victim and Who is the Victimizer"
For now the Courts will decide cupability and it will not go well for Co$. There is a God.
Certainly leaving the cult is very fashionable these days, but few actually write about the trauma of their experience, indeed John is the first one I know of to write such a book in a long while. And the reward is not for having been a $cilon rather for leaving the cult.
technotony1227: FOCK OFF . and you look your age. Wanker...
pattixox 8 months ago
scientologists are hilarious and this guy is a porky bozo
tumadoireacht 2 years ago
Nonsense. As of Oct 2009, the book is available at Amazon.
Ex-converts normally exaggerate reasons for departure. Plus, wrongdoings are found in any religion, including the glorious Catholic Church...
If "new groups are a threat to Irish democracy", then what to say of America, UK and France?! The Catholic Church is the most totalitarian organization in History, supportive of military dictatorships all over..
technotony1227 2 years ago
The book was not initially available on Amazon due to the legal threat and, due to said legal threat, is still not available in the UK.
Funny how the testimony of ex-Scientologists all point to the same fraud and abuse. Ever wonder why that is? They just got convicted of organised fraud and practicing medicine without a licence in France.
Good luck plugging your straw men. If you felt so strong about those nations/groups you should protest them.
themadhair 2 years ago
@technotony1227 scientology is a joke. they are either weak minded, or a crook. i think its crooks leading the weak, stealing from the weak. they use psychological tactics, which they denounce, to prey on the weak for profit. these people are a joke, i knocked one around the other day. this cat actually had the balls to step to me after i said what i believed. so he got hurt. is this common? are they usually violent in response to criticism? am i going to have to keep knocking these dicks out?
SynS7ven 1 year ago
they are no more nutty than any other religion or than this OCD guy
tumadoireacht 2 years ago
Nuttiness isn't the issue. Capacity and willingness to destroy lives is.
themadhair 2 years ago
Buying my copy today on Amazon :D!
BoombaGoomba 3 years ago
Great great great video. Thanks.
Avery1now 3 years ago
Anonymous has no proof that the Church of Scientology tried to block the sale of this book on Amazon.
John Duignan said himself in a radiointerview with glosslip that it was a single individual and not the Church of Scientology who threatened legal action against his publisher and Amazon, because this person felt that Duignan made defamatory statements about him in the book.
AnonymousLies 3 years ago
Anonymous spreads rumours that Scientology would be behind this, although they have no proof and all the stupid little Anonysheep are now going to buy this book. The credibility of John Duignan is questionable. I have read the first 4 chapters on the book and a lot of it is almost 1:1 copies of rumours that you can find on the Internet. Anyone could write a book based on these rumours and halftruths for a quick profit.
This censorship "conspiracy" is nothing than a marketing ploy.
AnonymousLies 3 years ago
Scientologist threatens legal action for defamation and the book, which is highly revealing about the Scientology enterprise, gets yanked. Having read the book myself I am still searching for anything that could be considered libel and am still coming up short.
And apparently that's a conspiracy? GTFO It is what the cult have been pulling for decades now.
And guess what? The public are cottening on to it.
themadhair 3 years ago
How can it be 1:1 copies of random rumours when the book simply documents the individual experiences of John Duignan during a large period of his lifespan? How can the Internet concoct rumours which directly relate to someone no one had previously heard about?
Cuoin 2 years ago
Comment removed
SynS7ven 1 year ago
Proof? Only that the cult of $cientology has a 60 history of silencing critics.
If an individual filed the claim you can bet it was done at the urging of the cult itself.
Give it up troll, the whole world now knows the truth about your duplicitous cult.
cultssuck 3 years ago
Scientology has successfully blocked the sale of the book, The Complex: An Insider Exposes the Covert World
Amazon won't sell it
There are a few copies for sale for over $250 USD
sugarpuddin88 3 years ago
Get it from Easons:
ww w . eason . ie/look/9781903582848/
WTF are you spamming this????
themadhair 3 years ago
I do so want to read this book. Thanks for all the information about it.
mollie2810 3 years ago 4
Ditto ^^^, I hear its now available on-line too, fantastic!
Ogsonofgroo 3 years ago
Easons. ISBN:9781903582848
sonofbeliol 3 years ago
Thank you for posting this video, this is why we as parents Tony and Sue are fighting to get our daughter Becky out of the Cult, please keep up your fight. xx
getbeckyout 3 years ago
I hope that the damn book starts getting available!
NotSoOldHippy 3 years ago
And now he's making money with stories of his years in the cult, how $cilontological! Anyone got a ling?
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Nah, $cilontological is making money immorally. What John is doing is making money morally and ethically, which is fine.
anonymous1312 3 years ago
Hmm, well not with my money. Anybody who did this experience shouldn't try to get blood money from all this misery.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Do you have any comprehension of what he went through?
Having met the dude in person and hearing his story I don't begrudge him some money to help him move on with his life. Call it blood money if you want, but you are simply being disingenuous and little bit ignorant. By writing this book he has done two things - 1)He is letting go of a dark place and 2)he has informed the world about a dangerous cult.
Calling it 'blood money' is sheer grandstanding.
themadhair 3 years ago
I see, so the element of personal choice is irrelevant to you also? "What was DONE to him" was done apparently at his request for a very long time. He believed himself one of the saviors of humanity and is now attempting to profit from his hubris.
People go into this cult because they choose to; never forget that. Or wait, would you prefer that we did? Life is full of consequences for bad choices. I see little reason to preference $cilontologists in terms of giving them an "out" to free will.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Now I think you're being obtuse on purpose. You're clearly a fairly smart cookie, so you must get the issues. Given this I believe you sir, are a troll. But hey it helps get this video most discussed.
anonymous1312 3 years ago
no, no. you are not understanding.
they use hypnosis. you know how people get on stage and act like chickens right? they do that to you.
i thought christians were the caring compassionate sort?
anonofetch 3 years ago
"i thought christians were the caring compassionate sort?"
Not when we're looking at something that looks like this we're not. Everybody's chucking free will out the door along with "repenting" which is regretting what you do FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY DO TO YOU!
If I ever saw a UFO/end of days cult it's this. My partner's ex came a hair's breadth from being at Heaven's Gate. People my family knew died at Jonestown.
Read the part about how Christ deals with blasphemers and heretics. Not so nice
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Nonsense, blood money is money made from criminal ventures mainly involving death or abuse. The cult is morally the criminal here because it perverted his desire to do good to do the cults' bidding with all that mission to "clear the planet" rubbish. When your low, like John was, that kind of stuff is very compelling and sucks you in. It will be interesting reading that story, by hook or crook I will get a copy of that book.
anonymous1312 3 years ago
Define "Good." Define how "good" arrives from fascism and preaching genocide. Did he not choose to believe the rasher of shite? Did he not swallow the poison koolaid?
I won't pay money to ex-cultists who attempt to profiteer once they've "blown." There should be ZERO "reward" for having been a $cilontologist... and yet it seems it's a fashionable thing to do, leaving and writing a book.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
You won't by the book. We get it and it is your choice.
But if you really think that joining a cult is a straightforward choice then you really really need to do your research. People experience difficulties in life, and such difficulties can make people extremely vulnerable to cult recruitment techniques.
This may be a low blow but - what life difficulty allowed the christians to get to you? Think about it.
themadhair 3 years ago
My faith didn't "get me," and it couldn't possibly keep me in the face of such egocentric bullshit as homo novis. There's a serious difference between living with a place for faith in your life and making a choice to enter a well know cult based on fiction.
To ignore the reality that many of these folks are likely to mirror the organization or they never would have gotten trapped in the first place, is to paint an undeservedly pretty picture of who joins a cult of the form and values of Co$.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
I note that you neither answered nor thought about my question.
Feel free to again blow your own trumpet and completely miss the point.
themadhair 3 years ago
they deny that they are a spaceship cult to most scientologists. then when you get to OT111 and you have paid so much money and have been brainwashed/hypnotised enough, they tell you there really was a guy named xenu and that you would not have been able to handle this truth until now. then they tell you to not talk about it, because if people hear about xenu too early they will get sick and die.
anonofetch 3 years ago
Again, what happened to free will and having easy access to information in the technology age. Either what you're saying makes no sense at all, OR the entire campaign of online stuff if useless because apparently they all get "stuck."
They make a conscious decision to enter... they make a conscious decision to stay...
nobody said it was a SANE conscious decision.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Dodged again. Never seen that coming.
Drop the pompous assumption that people who join cults are insane, evil or somehow deficient.
JD found information on the internet that managed to break the mental stranglehold the cult had over him - proof that an online campaign can have an effect.
Cult members ARE stuck - that's why they are cult members, and why they are so difficult to reach.
Think of the empowering feeling you get from your faith and realise that cults instil the same feeling.
themadhair 3 years ago
Those who are "empowered" to think of themselves as Gods on Earth, or aliens, deserve what they get. How many decades did it take for JD to get dissatisfied with how they were treating him? When did his saving his own ass become a noble thing?
You want me to give credit to these people for profiteering, and I'm not going to do it. The guy spent 20 years or however long earnestly trying to CLEAR THE PLANET.
NEVER forget that... NOT EVER!
You're talking about basically an "ex" Nazi.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Still never answered the question.
Here are some more questions that are very relevant:
Why do people find it difficult to leave cults like scientology? Why do they find it hard to speak out against it after leaving?
>>>NEVER forget that... NOT EVER!
^ My apologies. I thought you were a christian.
>>>You want me to give credit to these people for profiteering, and I'm not going to do it.
And I implied that you should...where??
Do you know what a cult is? We'll start small.
themadhair 3 years ago
I am, what's that got to do with being super careful around Nazis? You are implying it's an ok thing to come on out and write a book to sell for a profit. You maintain we should think of these people as victims rather than accomplices, funders, silent citizens in WWII Germany.
Nope, not going to buy it. People are RESPONSIBLE for their actions. Profiteering off a $cilontology story is like being a FreeZoner full of $cilon hubris about, "I'm doin Ron's work, despite the 'church'"
nope.. not me
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
"Do you know what a cult is? We'll start small."
Yes, and I know what wars are, and what churches are and aren't, and I ever know what free will is.
You're trying to give people excuses for what in the army would be consider "obeying unlawful orders." It didn't work in Nuremberg and it ain't gonna work here.
We disagree on the matter of innocence it would see. People don't join cults unless their thinking is aligned with the cult they join. In or out, they're dangerous if not mad as hatters.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
"Think of the empowering feeling you get from your faith and realise that cults instil the same feeling."
Think of WHAT it gives them that hardon for such a philosophy. Apparently you wouldn't see use in that.
The reality is that people are responsible for the CONTENT of the things they believe in; responsible for saying "This is wrong."
You think EVERYBODY should be protesting and saying "this is wrong," but that those who DO "THIS" are all innocent? I refuse to be that fucking gullible.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>It didn't work in Nuremberg and it ain't gonna work here.
^^Lookup the Milgram experiment.
>>In or out, they're dangerous if not mad as hatters.
^^Please try and respond to things I actually said and not tangential meanderings that I neither wrote nor implied.
>>Think of WHAT it gives them that hardon for such a philosophy.
>>The reality is that people are responsible for the CONTENT of the things they >>believe in
^^You mean like Christians thinking their enemies will go to hell?
themadhair 3 years ago
I see cult members as victims. People can, and do, fall for cult recruitment. The people within the cult really do believe they are helping people, that they can heal the world and that they are fighting for a higher purpose. That is a seriously strong mindfuck that is very difficult to throw off. I do not understand why you seem unfamiliar with this. I am not absolving them of their crimes but I am not going to be ignorant of the reality either.
And you still have not answer my question.
themadhair 3 years ago
Hmm let me see.. NO WRONG! You're basically saying the Hitler Youth were suckered; that every Nazi was innocent; that people who are in cults have zero free will.
What you "believe" is fine and dandy, but a more rational and unbiased review of the available academic literature indicates that like Nazi's they feel self-justified in their actions, not that they're deluded innocents.
I'm done with this chat. You wanna hold these folks up as exemplar humans fine, to me they all dangerous flakes.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
They may well go to Hell. And the Milgram experiments don't matter at all ultimately. You can pretend like $cilontology is free will raping, but guess what... that's not what Milgram's conclusions mean. Doesn't mean there is no free will, means that you have to have BALLS to excersise it in the face of authority. Typically $cilontologists are BORN FOLLOWERS and of average or less mental ability. That still doesn't get them a "get out of jail free card"
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>You're basically saying the Hitler Youth were suckered
^^Strawman much?
>>that every Nazi was innocent
^^ Strawman much?
>>that people who are in cults have zero free will.
^^ Strawman much?
>>the available academic literature indicates that like Nazi's they feel self-justified in >>their actions
^^ And this from anything I have said herehow?? Strawman much?
themadhair 3 years ago
>>They may well go to Hell.
^^ Rationalisation.
>>And the Milgram experiments don't matter
^^ Because they offer empirical evidence that you are wrong?
>>You can pretend like $cilontology is free will raping, but guess what... that's not >>what Milgram's conclusions mean.
^^ Isnt that the central result of the experiement??? That people can be made do extraordinary cruelty under orders from an authority figure??? The precise thing that scientology exploits???
themadhair 3 years ago
>>Doesn't mean there is no free will, means that you have to have BALLS to >>excersise it in the face of authority.
^^ This is why the Milgram experiment is relevant here the inherent obedience to authority that people have is exploitable. Having balls is another piece of grandstanding sophistry.
>>Typically $cilontologists are BORN FOLLOWERS and of average or less mental >>ability.
^^ Sheer unadulterated bullshit. Idealism and intelligence are vulnerable to cults.
themadhair 3 years ago
I note that you have still not answered my question. I also note that you have systematically and repeatedly brought up and attacked things I never wrote nor implied. I further note that you appear to be completely and utterly ignorant of what a cult actually is and how it ensnares its victims. You appear to have this notion that only dumb people fall for cults which strikes me as a personal insecurity on your own part. Why is that?
themadhair 3 years ago
You have this impression that only creative geniuses with pure hearts fall for cults, and moreover that they stay in because their free will has been RIPPED from them at every stage.
Such bullshit ... truly bullshit. People have to buy into things by choice. If cults a SO VERY EFFECTIVE in exploiting "good people," then why aren't they far more successful?
Cults exploit the weak; the feeble minded; those who feel they should have a "special place" in the world and can't accept reality.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
You love to paint the idea that $cilontology is full of sweet lil old people who want to make the world a lovely place. FFS read the books. This isn't strawman, it's post WWII fascism! If you're too stupid to see the LITERAL context of the creation of this insanity then fine. These are NOT creative and smart people, these are people with weak ego strength who are completely gullible and looking for an apparently socially "acceptable" alternative to being a Klansman.
Strawman much? Fuck you.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
How is this for an idea? If you actually responded to things I said and/or implied, and not the strawmen you seem so intent on creating, then it might be possible to have a conversation.
>>these are people with weak ego strength who >>are completely gullible and looking for an >>apparently socially "acceptable" >>alternative to being a Klansman.
^^ So no - you do not know what a cult it then.
Also - why do you not answer my question?
themadhair 3 years ago
"Also - why do you not answer my question?"
Quite simply because you wish to dilute the conversation by completely failing to admit that there is ANY element of free will involved.
Frankly, I refuse to engage in a deeper discussion than this because of that single fact. It's very convenient to blame "that devil weed" or "$cilontology" for everything, but it's simply not the case.
Until that reality is a foundation of dialogue, rather than your self-insistent monologue, I'll just say NO U!
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>Quite simply because you wish to dilute the >>conversation by completely failing to admit >>that there is ANY element of free will >>involved.
^^ More strawman.
>>It's very convenient to blame "that devil >>weed" or "$cilontology" for everything, but >>it's simply not the case.
^^ More strawman.
How does the Milgram experiment fit into your suppositions here? If you can't answer that then your position is untenable.
Answer my original question plox.
themadhair 3 years ago
Milgram was loaded in terms of culturally LOADED expertness and authority that derived from thousands of years of tradition; ie. "The Academy." The people giving the test were in a Psych Dept. at Yale, not a Co$ stress table.
At best what Milgram achieved was a study of the effects of seemingly "LEGITIMATE authority issuing immoral orders." There IS a difference.
People who are willing to accept clowns with emeters as LEGIT authorities share certain characteristics. Care to outline them?
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Now, little Ms. "you never answer my question..."
Tell me there's no free will operating here. Tell me there aren't common threads to be found in mental illness and susceptibility to cult recruitment.
You need to spend a couple hours on PsychInfo at your local Uni research library's public access terminal and do a lit search of studies of members of cults and characteristics they share. It ain't a pretty "before" picture, and "after" is always worse unless they get out almost immediately.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>Milgram was loaded in
^^ The part you are missing here is that scientology, like most other successful cults, contains techniques that can generate a greater blind obedience to authority that even that observed in Milgram. A common theme among ex-members is the acknowledgement that the first scientology courses they did provided them with confidence, self-fulfilment, belonging etc. This is the starting step to instilling in the victim.
themadhair 3 years ago
the belief that that such wins are due to scientology. The whole scam works on the principle that its victims can be made to recognise scientology/Hubbard as an authority figure.
>>There IS a difference.
^^ Thats what cults do they make their authority real to the people they enslave.
>>Tell me there's no free will operating here.
^^ Why? I have never claimed such.
themadhair 3 years ago
>>Tell me there aren't common threads to be found in mental illness and >>susceptibility to cult recruitment.
^^ Dox/source or STFU.
>>It ain't a pretty "before" picture, and "after" is always worse unless they get out >>almost immediately.
^^ I agree. Did you know that JD actually when through a period where he struggled daily to avoid topping himself?
I am no absolving the dude I am appreciative of the book and its importance.
themadhair 3 years ago
Apparently can't put url's here, check your mail for non-specific example of a study of some Moonies. People who don't get suckered share resiliencies that people who do obviously don't. The VAST MAJORITY of people DO NOT get suckered.
You're proposition is that the reason the ones who do get suckered is basically much the same as $cilontology's: they're misunderstood geniuses with noble values who simply haven't been properly recognized UNTIL NOW.
Most people know what shit looks like.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
People have to choose to accept that illegitimate authority as having authority / power over them and the fact is that the vast majority of people who reach that point laugh their asses off and walk the fuck away.
Do you think it's the act of a sane individual to make a choice in favor of $cientology when that moment comes? Has it got nothing to do with choices the person's made to that point; by which they led themselves to this act / choice to do so?
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
The article you linked to describe the members as having the traits you describe which I expected.
The question is did they have those traits BEFORE the indoctrination process? This appears to be the main bone of contention we have. Do you have dox to suggest that people who join cults had these traits before they joined?
themadhair 3 years ago
Do you have dox that say they don't? I submit even without dox my statement is Occam's Razor and the contention that this is not a case of shared addictive vulnerabilities coinciding with meeting up with something that's "true for them" is false.
If I find something more supportive pre/post I'll let you know though/ Infortunately, that a mental status exam is not a predicate for being gullible / vulnerable to stupidity.
One can infer from the "rejection rate," most do not have this problem.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>mental status exam is not a predicate for >>being gullible / vulnerable to stupidity.
^^ You also have to factor in times when a person is simply experiencing difficulties. Some people have been recruited shortly after bereavements. One family member believes her brother got recruited because of this.
themadhair 3 years ago
Now we're talking! There's a vulnerability. What often comes with death of a family member; depression. Depression is an Axis I disorder treatable with therapy and antidepressants. Instead, some turn to God... and apparently some turn to $cilontology.
Why do some hold on to reality and turn to things that are non-self destructive and why do others turn to cults? In the case of a recent family death, what you've just described is the cult preying upon someone having a situational "disorder."
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
>>Why do some hold on to reality and turn to >>things that are non-self destructive and why >>do others turn to cults?
^^To be fair they don't intend to turn to cults. Most recruits are so because of being a victim to circumstance.
Given the right sequence of events anybody can fall for a cult.
themadhair 3 years ago
"Given the right sequence of events anybody can fall for a cult."
Actually, I don't buy that line of reasoning. Not everyone presented with a stress test in a crisis or whatever vector of contamination, is going to join something so abusive.
Lots of people are critical thinkers and more cynical / self-protective than to let that sort of shit in their lives NO MATTER WHAT.
I'm sorry people fall for it, but I still maintain the parallels to addictive behavior are too close to be overlooked.
Christians4Tommorrow 3 years ago
Depression is also a healthy response to loss. When a kid loses their parents, often security is gone, (I've been there). You not only have to deal with the loss, but a whole new set of people, who may or may not want you there. So I think some people put their tears on hold. Sadness & loneliness needs to be felt fully in order to move on. Tears and kindness can go a long way. But you may not feel the freedom to cry and that can cost a lot. A cult might feel like a family. False security.
puckf17 3 years ago
But the forgotten tears will reemerge and manifest in some other way, (depression, futility, anger) until they're claimed and the primary loss is dealt with.
puckf17 3 years ago
The "Discussion" between Christians4Tommorrow and themadhair (read all comments to find them) is some of the more interesting reading I have done lately.
Some day the story of L R Hubbard and his Merry Band of Greedy Victimizers will be made into a movie. Then the Public can wrestle with
the complex and troubling question of "Who is the Victim and Who is the Victimizer"
For now the Courts will decide cupability and it will not go well for Co$. There is a God.
Riply043 3 years ago
Certainly leaving the cult is very fashionable these days, but few actually write about the trauma of their experience, indeed John is the first one I know of to write such a book in a long while. And the reward is not for having been a $cilon rather for leaving the cult.
anonymous1312 3 years ago
Brilliant, We're gonna have to get Mike up to Belfast sometime
NicNasty1981 3 years ago
By trying to stop the sales, all the cult of scientology has done is give the book "The Complex" even more attention.
Keekeeleekee 3 years ago 4
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte
111oose 3 years ago
$cientologists cannot avoid footbullets. I think they can't understand that because they are too far away from normal behaviour.
LRH® was crazy, and they follow his words.
Hi Mike. ;)
AmnonNhymous 3 years ago 3
The banning of books is a disgrace. I am looking forward to reading John's book when Amazon grows a set.
SlappyThePenguin 3 years ago 3