honestly, i think free will exists to a certain extent, yet every choice we make is perfect.. it seems to me as if the extent of free will could be determined by ones awareness. the more i think about it, life seems like a giant word game. linguistic determinism is an interesting subject. i believe language indirectly shapes reality, as language directly affects HOW we see things (or our attitude?), which would directly affect WHAT we see..
@tonyfalca AND... the free will that may exist -- exists in the moment. believing in determinism wouldnt/couldnt justify what had happened because thats determined already, isnt it? the only thing one could change/affect about the past or future is his/her attitude concerning these things, memories, projections, and what have you
I don't like these discussions being framed as determinism vs free will, because it isn't determinism that precludes free will (an indetermined decision is, if anything, even less willed than a determined one) but the absence of anything free will could possibly be.
For my part, I feel a greater ownership of my decisions knowing that they are determined , based on brain state and information, than to imagine I could have chosen otherwise. For to choose otherwise given the same brain state ...
...(or soul state for those who believe in such a thing) and information necessarily means that an unaccountable baseless factor is at play. That seems to amount to substantially less control over one's decisions, not more.
So the whole concept of free will seems to appeal to something other than present state, information and randomness and yet even in our wildest imaginings we can't stump up something to fit the bill: something that is indeterministic without adding randomness.
@noelplum99 Thanks for your insight. Free will may just be a nonsense concept. Though I have heard that, as we become more familiar with quantum physics, that true randomness may be a reality at the quantum level. Of course, what we interpret as "randomness" may just be a very complex pattern we are incapable of observing. However, if true randomness exists, and we lived life over again the same way, I wonder if there would be enough randomness on a quantum level that things may be different?
I think there is every possibility that the universe may be random on a fundamental level and I certainly don't consider myself a determinist (i am undecided). I also agree with you that such randomness would ofc make outcomes different, even decisions different, if time were replayed. However, randomness is something we have no control over and simply makes our decisions more arbitrary - it seems to be the exact opposite of what we mean by free will, not its foodstuff.
@noelplum99 I hadn't really considered that concept until you brought it up, but I can see how indeterminism due to haphazard randomness offers even less control of a "free" will. I just looked back through your videos and watched "Redux: Free Will" and "Determinism, Punishment and the Law" and I have a clearer understanding. Thanks again.
@Celephais42 Because I believe that is all we can do. You may want to check out Dendrophilian's video about free will - it may be mirrored somewhere. I really enjoyed our discussion in Philly, I just do not see a convincing reason to adhere to the dualism of thought and matter. Like tides coming in, or plants photosynthesizing, I understand thought to be a purely physical phenomenon, wonderful and mysterious as it may be. Especially since physical things can affect it (drugs, disease, etc).
honestly, i think free will exists to a certain extent, yet every choice we make is perfect.. it seems to me as if the extent of free will could be determined by ones awareness. the more i think about it, life seems like a giant word game. linguistic determinism is an interesting subject. i believe language indirectly shapes reality, as language directly affects HOW we see things (or our attitude?), which would directly affect WHAT we see..
tonyfalca 3 months ago
@tonyfalca AND... the free will that may exist -- exists in the moment. believing in determinism wouldnt/couldnt justify what had happened because thats determined already, isnt it? the only thing one could change/affect about the past or future is his/her attitude concerning these things, memories, projections, and what have you
tonyfalca 3 months ago
Love Vanilla Porter
VesusSheist 3 months ago
I don't like these discussions being framed as determinism vs free will, because it isn't determinism that precludes free will (an indetermined decision is, if anything, even less willed than a determined one) but the absence of anything free will could possibly be.
For my part, I feel a greater ownership of my decisions knowing that they are determined , based on brain state and information, than to imagine I could have chosen otherwise. For to choose otherwise given the same brain state ...
noelplum99 3 months ago
@noelplum99
...(or soul state for those who believe in such a thing) and information necessarily means that an unaccountable baseless factor is at play. That seems to amount to substantially less control over one's decisions, not more.
So the whole concept of free will seems to appeal to something other than present state, information and randomness and yet even in our wildest imaginings we can't stump up something to fit the bill: something that is indeterministic without adding randomness.
noelplum99 3 months ago
@noelplum99 Thanks for your insight. Free will may just be a nonsense concept. Though I have heard that, as we become more familiar with quantum physics, that true randomness may be a reality at the quantum level. Of course, what we interpret as "randomness" may just be a very complex pattern we are incapable of observing. However, if true randomness exists, and we lived life over again the same way, I wonder if there would be enough randomness on a quantum level that things may be different?
stevetheskeptic 3 months ago
@stevetheskeptic
I think there is every possibility that the universe may be random on a fundamental level and I certainly don't consider myself a determinist (i am undecided). I also agree with you that such randomness would ofc make outcomes different, even decisions different, if time were replayed. However, randomness is something we have no control over and simply makes our decisions more arbitrary - it seems to be the exact opposite of what we mean by free will, not its foodstuff.
noelplum99 3 months ago
@noelplum99 I hadn't really considered that concept until you brought it up, but I can see how indeterminism due to haphazard randomness offers even less control of a "free" will. I just looked back through your videos and watched "Redux: Free Will" and "Determinism, Punishment and the Law" and I have a clearer understanding. Thanks again.
stevetheskeptic 3 months ago
We have to keep playing out part?
WTF for?
Celephais42 3 months ago
@Celephais42 *our
Celephais42 3 months ago
@Celephais42 Because I believe that is all we can do. You may want to check out Dendrophilian's video about free will - it may be mirrored somewhere. I really enjoyed our discussion in Philly, I just do not see a convincing reason to adhere to the dualism of thought and matter. Like tides coming in, or plants photosynthesizing, I understand thought to be a purely physical phenomenon, wonderful and mysterious as it may be. Especially since physical things can affect it (drugs, disease, etc).
stevetheskeptic 3 months ago
nothing wrong with rambly thoughts.
devchelle2 3 months ago