The doctrines of Grace are scripture... Cultural studies within the context of scripture show that the words ( All, World and Everyone ) Do not mean every single person or the entire persons of the human race. Israel was the only chosen nation prior to Christ and no one seems to have a problem with that, but when we say that God has elected some for salvation and others for destruction people experience anger because they like a soft gospel ( ROMANS 9) 22, but read the whole chapter!!!!!
The arminian proponents were terrible. Im was an arminian who became a calvinist by pondering why I came to christ yet oters reject him - concluded grace. I came to this argument wanting to be convinced of arminianism...to escape the thoughts of divine reprobation. Yet I walk away convinced of its truth.It seems arminianism is based on philisophical notions of free will rather than any scriptures. These men were concluding some men are innately good -thats heretical.Need better armian debaters
I was curious about who John Calvin was. When I read about him, it is clear this man was totally unGodly, sending many to the stake. He would order the burning of those who dared to disagree with him, and he would command green wood to be used, so that the person being burnt alive would suffer the most horrific and prolonged death. Only the lucky were beheaded.This was a man of GOD!! ?? Calvin was downright evil!
My friend although you would like it to be this way, God had Planned Judas from eternity past to betray Christ and become the Son Of Perdition. The very Psalms themselves proclaim this very sobering truth. God made him a vessel of destruction to Glorify his own name. And to say he could have thwarted God's external decree in Election and Salvation is Blasphemous
@FirebrandNIRE God for knows all does he not? A being that knows all past, present and future does not need to plan anything, God already knows what everyone born and unborn will do, now and always so why would God need to make Judas betray Christ when Judas wicked ways would already be set, of course God has the power to make Judas do what he did for a purpose, but even before Jesus was born God knew Judas would do what he did, or knew he was unrighteous and would say that way,forever.
@FirebrandNIRE So does it not make more sense to just push Judas towards what God wants him to do since he's going to be unrighteous and be sinful forever anyways. To believe that views that you have would be to say, God made Judas do what he did and made him into an unrighteous man to betray Jesus. Which sounds odd to me. It sounds like your view would have us believe god makes men into whatever he chooses based on his own plans, which would be unjust.
@FirebrandNIRE An all knowing all powerful righteousness God that can do not do evil or bad, that is God, if God was to make a man sin, or make a man turn from him who would not already do it himself would be unjust. The only reason God would make Judas The son of perdition is if Judas (God being all knowing) would go to hell, never change regardless, so he uses him to glorify his own name because that does not void God's righteousness. Just like the pharaoh, he hardened his own heart 1st>>
@FirebrandNIRE before God then comes in and hardened his heart further, this then does not void free will nor void God's nature, because he will only do things that are just, and making a man do something as such would not be just, unless he would do it anyway. This is foreknowledge, it's the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment. I would say yes your right "God had Planned Judas from eternity past to betray Christ", but only because he already knew Judas in all aspects and action.
So why does Revelation 3 propose that God is knocking at the door and we need to open the door. Why not use an example of God as A gun holder and you have no choice?? Either God gives us the allusion as choice or God gives us real choice. I believe that a Just God gives us real Choice or God has condemned some humans to Hell as God sovereign will which God could do. I don't see God this way at all. He build humans with a free will and therefore we choose our destiny.
@MRGV7373 If you care to read the chapter carefully Rev. Chapter 3 is not dealing with the unsaved, its deadling with the church (THE CLUE IS IN THE NAME) The problem here is with God's people the church the already saved.
@FirebrandNIRE Good point. How about all the other choices I sent you? It would seem the the calvinist view would lead one to believe that sovereign means no choice but Sovereign means that God is control of all. Being in control does not exclude God from building a world of Choice controlled by humnas. God could make Humans with no choice but then love would not be a moral choice then would it?? After reviewing Calvanism, I believe that this theory is unGodly and satanic. Great Lie
@FirebrandNIRE Yes for Judas and antiChist if human. In act 2 Peter preaches to the gathered Jews, If Judas and the AntiChirst were in the crowd they would have heard Peter say. In Act2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is a condition to the promise. Judas and the Anti would have to repent ... Juedas no repentance - he died, Anti won't bow down
@FirebrandNIRE Are not Judas and AntiChrist the greatest of Sinners. You and I?? So Romans 6 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
So I rest my case - Christ Died for the ungodly, Sinners - All people Now the the rest??
So what you are telling me therefore is that Iscariot could have been saved and Antichrist can be saved?
Even though God Almighty who knows the beginning to end and who has foretold of their destruction,even though God has pronounced their demise by his Almighty Wrath, but you say otherwise.
I'm sorry I can't help with your nonsense teachings my friend.
@FirebrandNIRE Yes, could have been saved. Both Peter and Judas totally deny the Lord. The differnece is that Peter came back to the Lord. Peter could have hung himself just as well. But Jesus and Father saw in Peter's heart that he would come back. Judas could have come back but did not. God and Jesus knew before hand from Judas's behavior and heart he would not. Judas could have come back just as well as Peter. God's knowing does not stop the offer of forgivness. Judas did not accept
@FirebrandNIRE Nowhere did it say that Judas Iscraiot was "elected" to "perform" in the scene that was prophecised many years prior thanks to the grace of the alpha and omega. However, the existence of Satan and his hold on individuals is an axiom so that one of the twelve chose to betray Jesus for silver was not such a far fetched conclusion that required Judas Iscraiot to be stripped of free will and the ability to refuse to serve as a tool of satan
Notice the Arminian tapping his watch at the end of Romans 9:21-23. LOL. It seems to me that the BOTTOM LINE, is that Arminians want to glory in their own salvation because it comes down to a choice "they" made. For some reason, Christians feel "excluded" by the idea of election, and limited atonement. they shouldnt, because if you are a christian, then you are within that atonement and are of the elect. Fact is, you cant "woo" people to Christ, they have to be regenerated....by God.
That host is probably one of the most biased ive ever seen. Notice he didnt really ask the Arminian any questions other than "What is your response?", and he never said "God bless you" to the Calvinist until that was pointed out earlier. That's just disrespectful, and I'm not even 100% sure I'm a Calvinist.
I"ve watched this entire debate and have come to this conclusion. If I could step through this screen and met that blabbering host. I would be in serious danger of breaking the 6th commandment. I"m gonna go repent now.
Also, when you read terms like elect, chosen, you must not dispense with the full revelation of New Testament explanations of the human role in the covenant God made in Christ - You are oversimplifying things tremendously to your great loss. The Gospel always involves a call to respond - to receive Christ, to repent, to believe, to be baptised etc. in order to be saved. This is what we are talking about here, and you still have failed to address the reality of thes simple instructions.
you fail to see that my theology does not say man doesn't respond as you think but it says man cannot and will not respond unless God First begins a work
then and only then can man cry out (after his eyes are opened)
then man receives a new spirit
man could not repenet with out this new spirirt
again
God does the work for good and man would continue in sin if he didn't
SO, Yes man must respond--But even the word Respond suggest Reformed theology
notice Responce is a Reaction to something not an initiating action
that being said: I believe the core of your problem is that you cannot accept that God does not choose to open the eyes of all men and yet scripture teaches this
my laughter is a responce to your comments that I find "patronizing"
U suggest I Repent and believe
what do you want me to Repent of? the fact I believe God has given me a new spirit that gives me tha ability to repent and if he had not given me that spirit my wicked heart would decieve me into thinking i was repenting with a false repentance?
do you want me to repeent of trust Christ has paid fopr my sin and given me a new repentant heart?
That I wouldn't have a repentant heart if Christ didn't give me one. I would have a heart of stone and a false repentance thinking I was rep[enting when i really wasn't because I was trusting a wicked heart of stone
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Scott - again you miss the point. You are extrapolating scriptures about specific events, ( Israel, Pharoah, Judas), key events in Israel's history, where God overrides entirely human activity, But you cannot exegete these verses and apply them to individual salvation. Please - get yourself a study book on hermeneutics and exegesis. Also, you will find verses that apply to the church corporate - about them being chosen / elect etc. Again referring to the people of God corporate. not individual
Ez 33:11: "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, *I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked*; but that the wicked turn from his way and lives: turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel."
Deut 30:14: "But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it. See, I have set before you this day:
(1.) life and good, and
(2.) death and evil;
In that I command you this day to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and the LORD your God shall bless …
Why do you think James and Paul used Abraham as an example?
This truth that you cannot yet see is all through Scripture
have you ever noticed Paul always quotes from the "OT"?
There is a truth there that yoyu are missing it is going right over your head and you don't even know you are not seeing it thus making you ignorant of the whole truth
cont.. clearly we see here that what we do (purging ourself from sin, or not) determines our usefulness to the master. If we cleanse ourself, we are ready to be used by God, and become vessels of honour. If we don't, then we remain crude vessels of common nature. You have to agree that the dependant factor here is the action of man in lining up with God, or not, thus determining the resultant usefulness to God in service. God will not use a dishonoured vessel for noble purposes. So stop sinning!
This like when my 5 yr old says "I want, I want, I want" and I try to explain finance to her and why I am not and endless supply of funds for her wants
She just doesn't get it
part of me wants to beat my head against a wall in frustration
the other part knows I need be patient and loving because she doesn't understrand
@ScottDaMoose Ive never encountered such a patronising person, who, whilst claiming others dont see the obvious, fails to engage in the scriptural points made, the words clearly teaching you the opposite of your dogma. Break free from the cult Scott & read the Bible - all of it - and notice just how much God places responsibility on man to humble himself, get right with God, repent, follow, seek, ask, knock, pursue holiness etc. I prefer the instructions of God. God is source, man MUST respond.
@ScottDaMoose I have repented of my sins, I have placed my faith in The Lord Jesus Christ - I believe his blood paid the price for my sins. I have been baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not trust my own works to save me but his, and I intend to fully remain in this place of grace till the day I die. In love for God I have ceased to sin consciously, and pray he forgives me for the times I do. I am filled with the Holy Spirit & believe every word in the Bible.
@ScottDaMoose You are definitely departing from scriptual instruction here now Scott. Christ and the Apostles always answered in the affirmative when people asked "what must we do to be saved?" ...
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" Acts 16
Jesus: "I am the door: by me if any man ENTER in, he shall be saved," Jn 10
Believing and entering are explicit human actions.
@ScottDaMoose "...they were pricked in their heart & said unto Peter & to the rest of the apostles, Men & brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, & BE BAPTISED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Acts 2
what must we do? what must I do to be saved? IF what you say is true, Peter & Jesus would have replied - "you can do nothing, only God can do it". But they didnt. They answered in the affirmative, telling their hearers what to do!
@ScottDaMoose "he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mk 13:13
"He that BELIEVES and is BAPTISED shall be saved" Mk 16:16
"whosoever shall CALL ON THE NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
"IF YOU: ENDURE, ENTER BELIEVE, CALL, CONFESS : YOU SHALL BE SAVED"
But I can go to Home Depot spend $100 and build a solor panel and light my wife's flower garden without having to pay the electric company for the power
for you
you are trying to argue against something you do not fully understand
Please stop
If you understood exactly all that I have posted you wouldn't insult me with these arguments
@ScottDaMoose - you are insulted by the gospel of Jesus Christ? and the words of his Apostles?.. OK - well now I know you are in a cult. Repent, believe, and you will be saved!
and you think you have repented and pleased God with your work and because of your doing so he will give you salvation and if a man doesn't Repent he doesn't earn his salvation
While the reason I repent is because HE has given me a new spirit that causes me to repent and I would not repent had HE not given me this new spirit
if you cannot see the difference in our testimonies
"he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mk 13:13
"He that BELIEVES and is BAPTISED shall be saved" Mk 16:16
"whosoever shall CALL ON THE NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
The instructions of God. You claim that because I followed these instructions, my testimony is deficient?
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
yes and at the same time
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
@ScottDaMoose I have already told you that I have placed my faith in The Lord Jesus Christ - I believe his blood paid the price for my sins. I have been baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not trust my own works to save me but his, and I intend to fully remain in this place of grace till the day I die. You wrongly claim I rely on my own actions to save me, when the actions I took indicate my reliance is solely on Christ and his actions, and his Blood and Spirit.
@ScottDaMoose Your trouble is - you think you can do nothing to please God, and are thus very deceived. Scripture tells us the opposite:
"Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us HOW YOU OUGHT TO WALK AND TO PLEASE GOD..." 1 Thess 4:1
You really ought to walk right in order to please God if you wish to obey him.
@ScottDaMoose Of course we please God because he has placed his righteousness in us, and regenerated us - but it IS US pleasing God. We have to engage in his righteousness and 'outwork' it by obedience, self control, perseverence, renouncing sin, cleansing our hands, putting away the unclean thing etc. So you now agree the Christian can please God? You also must recognise that preconversion, as we repent & turn from sin, this is also due to the conviction and grace of God but still US DOING IT.
@ScottDaMoose hey Scott - friend - please try to stop insulting me with the patronising 'will you ever learn' stuff etc. - we are having an honest conversation about scripture and holy things here in mutual respect. Please engage the scriptures I am presenting - they really are quite plain in their meaning. Christ gave preconditions to inherit salvation. We must fulfill them. This is not self salvation, but OBEDIENCE to Christ.
@ScottDaMoose "[Jesus] was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world...as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" Jn 1
Christ enlightens every man that is in the world - ie he initiated this, not man. But man must respond. Those who respond & receive Christ he THEN GIVES THE RIGHT to become children of God. You got this the wrong way round. You twisted the order. 1. receive, 2. become a child of God.
"Since we heard of YOUR FAITH in Christ Jesus.." Col 1:4
- who's faith is he commending here - the people he wrote to YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST. So what is wrong with me proclaiming my faith in Christ - you think there is something wrong with this? not according to the Bible there isnt.
" I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that YOUR FAITH is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8)
@cornwallsteve cont-- and because He broke me He opened my eyes to my sin He showed me why he died on a cross and that I was on a path to Hell then and only then --I cried out for him to save me not until he first opened my eyes to these thing then HE gave me a new spirit and because of this I now repent and turn from sin not the other way around like you suggest Repent (do a work) and then HE will give you a new spirit I never would have asked HIM to save me had HE not done this
@ScottDaMoose and having given you sight of your sin, and sight of his glory and grace, had you not responded by repenting and believing, you would not have been saved! He did not repent for you! You did the repenting. You did the believing. It's of his grace, but you did it. It's YOUR faith in Christ. Christ put it there, but you received him - He cannot receive himself for you - you received him, and then he gave you the right to become a child of God. Thats what the Bible says.
@ScottDaMoose James clearly explains that faith without works is dead. This verse is in the bible. In fact, James explains it well:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? See you how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness"
Clearly Abraham had a role! he believed God - faith in God not self.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
@ScottDaMoose Of course Faith comes forst, but faith is proven by works - Thats what James says. Abraham proved his faith by his works. He believed God, and obeyed him. God rewarded this by counting it as righteousness. You are the one who is creating the contradiction. You are claiming that believing in God is a work of the Law - it is not., It is relying on God NOT man. You are twisting the real meaning of law and faith.
There is a dead works and the way you have used james is a dead works
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
The Works Jams is talking about is the works God has done to him that is on the inside and can be seen on the outside
@cornwallsteve Because Abrahm had two works dead works and works by God Ishmael is the result of his dead works and Isaac is the result of his good works And how was Isaac conceived? Sarah was beyond the age to have Children It was a wrok of God that gave Isaac not a work of Abraham God gave abrahm the works ther would have not been an Isaac if God had not promised him
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.
Gal 4:23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband."
Gal 4:28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise
@ScottDaMoose Scott - you just directly contradicted James's own definition of works in this passage...
"faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you MY FAITH by MY WORKS."
James was talking about HIS works and HIS faith. I think you would also have argued with James if you had met him!
@cornwallsteve What is the next thing James says? he refers to Abraham's works What was Abraham's works? how did he produce the child of promise? (Isaac) he donated the sperm and were did that come from? God and Sarah? she couldn't produce ovums anymore God cause her to produce the Ovum that gave Isaac It always comes back to God Abraham and Sarah couldn't not produce these works had God not given it to them
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Who is doing the giving and causing to happen here?
@ScottDaMoose Again - you are using a scripture addressing corporate old covenant Israel to prove individual salvation - this is a wrong exegesis - Scott - I am not just saying this friend - you simply cannot overlay prophecies to ISRAEL over individual Christian experience. The nation to whom this was addressed, this also was said:
"as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
@ScottDaMoose cont... Jesus said this to the same people: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent unto you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"
Does this mean the prophecy you refer to below failed? ~NO - by no means. Those who received Christ fulfilled the prophecy. God did indeed give them a new heart - he filled them with the Spirit at Pentecost...
@ScottDaMoose cont 2... when Peter preached to gathered Israel. They asked "what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Acts 2 - ie HE TOLD THEM TO DO SOMETHING TO BE SAVED. you can contradict scripture all you like, I will receive the revelation of God on this. Peter actually replied: "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Can you believe this!? SAVE YOURSELVES.... the WORD OF GOD...
you assume becuse God commands something that man can do it
this is a false assumption
try for just one mooment to picture God being sarcstic when he said these words
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
@ScottDaMoose you cannot be serious!!!! are you really claiming that Peter preached to the gathered men of Israel on Pentecost and gave them instructions on how to be saved that they could not follow? If this is what you are saying, you are an enemy of the truth!
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules
@ScottDaMoose You are indeed correct - God is the one who puts a new heart in man, God is the one who acts for his name's sake - this is not in doubt - you keep trying to prove a given - With this I agree. But you are missing the necessary response of Man to the work of God - it really is so simple - how can you not see it - there are too many scriptures, so many, instructing men to obey, repent, turn, humble themself, submit to God, resist the devil, seek, ask, knock. These are given to obey...
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
God must first open the Eyes of a lost man so a lost man can see his need of a savior
the man cannot cry out to God until his eyes are first opened and God
You seem to think God has opened the eyes of every man that has lived and is alive
@ScottDaMoose You claim that God selectively opens only the eyes of the saved to receive salvation, and keeps the eyes of those who don't closed - and this is the decision of God, and man can do nothing to override the decision of God to save or damn. But scripture opposes this idea. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked - he seeks the retrieval of all people. see the above scriptures. You seem to be absolutely closed to the revelation of scripture and the obvious meaning as given...
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
He raised Pharaoh for the very purpose of crushing him and showing hias power to his chosen (Israel)
Joh 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'
Just like Pharaoh God chose Judas
He has chosen some to recieve and some to destroy and he does not take pleasure in the ones he has chosen for destruction
Isa 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me
Isa 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend
Isa 41:9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light
Isa 48:9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off.
@ScottDaMoose "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness; Because that which may be KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM; for GOD HAS SHOWED IT TO THEM. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God
@ScottDaMoose "God has made of one blood all nations of men in order to dwell on all the face of the earth... That they should seek the Lord, if lest by any means they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from EVERY ONE OF US: For IN HIM WE LIVE, and move, and have our being... as we are the offspring of God.. now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent:"
Thie was said en bloc to a city of pagans. If you oppose this command of God claiming it is impossible, you oppose God!
@ScottDaMoose The difference between the wise & foolish man was not that God chose one and not the other etc. as you deceptively suggest, but that one obeyed Christ and God, and acted accordingly. Read this to prove my assertion:
"why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not DO THE THINGS I SAY? Whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built a house on a rock..."
Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God's grace in order to be regenerated
Synergism says man must do something to receive Grace!!
@ScottDaMoose you arent reading the bible verses - youre simply speaking but not listening. I have rarely encountered such a closed minded person who calls themself a Christian. You are seriously opposing the commands of God by claiming they are impossible when God says otherwise - Youre in a very dangerous position I fear. I am leaving these verse with you to consider and laying this down now. I urge you to decide to repent, humble yourself, place YOUR faith in Christ. The only way to be saved.
Gal 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."
Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
I love this next one
Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
Again you are misquoting verses about Old covenant Israel and the shift to Gentile conversion. God granted repentance to the Gentiles, and they came into the church in their droves. He opened salvation to all peoples, not just through Israel. This is not about personal salvation! I have said already, God initiates the proces of conversion, and gives light to all men, draws men, but it is up to the man whether to receive Christ, or resist the Holy Spirit. God does not believe for us.
@ScottDaMoose NO! - I am fully in agreement that it is granted to men to see God, to know about God, to even exist in the first place - All is of God. But still, having been granted to repent and believe, man must then do it - otherwise why does the gospel need to go out - the message of good news - You are the one who has half the story. It is not the end that God draws and enlightens. Man must respond, and not resist. Man must repent, after it is granted. Man must believe & endure to the end.
@ScottDaMoose "we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32
God gives the Spirit to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM. you seem to claim its the other way round. There is a vital role to play in this process by man. God gives his Spirit to those who OBEY. Abraham was granted righteousness because he BELIEVED and OBEYED.
@ScottDaMoose repentance is not a work of the law! It is a turning away from reliance on the law, and self, to relying on God. Repentance is the END of self-works - that is the reason its the only thing God is looking for in a man - No work is good enough - repentance is acknowledgement of the end of reliance omn self righteousness, and reliance only on God in Christ.
you have said God commands us to repent and a command is a law
hence (Ten commandments)
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them
by using James 2:24 the way you have used it, you have created a contradiction just as the Mormons do when they use it that way
@ScottDaMoose please read this carefully. See that what we do in response to God's call to stop sinning is key...
"Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold & of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. IF A MAN THEREFORE PURGE HIMSELF from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and READY FOR THE MASTER'S USE and prepared unto every good work." 2 Tim 2)
I have read it and you have a conflict that your doctrins explain in a wrong way
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills
@ScottDaMoose This is God's view - I know it conflicts with your 'enlightened' dogma, but the Word of God takes precedence every time:
To those who God has drawn & offered to reform & enlightened, & taught, & influenced towards salvation, but who have used their God-given freedom wrongly:
"you do always resist the Holy Ghost (GOD)" (Acts 7:51)
"IF YOU WILL NOT be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; THEN will I also walk contrary unto you.." (Lev 26:23)
@ScottDaMoose I choose the instructions of Christ & the Apostles who told me what to do to be saved, so I did it. I believed in Christ, I called on his name, I repented of my sin, I entered into Christ the narrow way, I confessed Christ is Lord, I intend to endure to the end. Nobody can do this for me.
Of course I describe my actions towards God, this is my testimony.
What is your testimony Scott? Have you not done these things also? If not, you will not be saved according to the Bible.
you said "so I did it. I believed in Christ, I called on his name, I repented of my sin, I entered into Christ the narrow way, I confessed Christ is Lord, I intend to endure to the end. Nobody can do this for me"
can you not see the typical American narcissism in your statement?
you boast in what you have done to receive salvation
Do you not know that even this narcissism is a sin
Then--HE awakened my consience & caused me to repent and turn from the man I was
I could now now see I had no other choice but to turn and continue to repent daily as my flesh desires to sin but my new spirit that HE has placed in me will not leave my alone as He works his work in me
As Peter said--"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
I would have contiued on my path of destruction had God not chosen to do this thing to me
much in the same way Saul would have continued on his path Had God not Blinded him on the road to Damascus or Jacob would have continued his twisted ways until God wonded his thigh at the ford Jabbok
If God had not chosen to stop me right on the path I was on and break me down until I submitted to him I would still be on that same path of destruction
There was a time when I took "Trig" and it made little sence to me and I seen no use for it so i would sit in class and make fun of what I didn't understand
then years later I went to Electrical school and studied Electrical principals
All of a sudden I understood Trig. and I could see it's application
looking back I can see how my High School teacher felt when he tried to explain trig to me
you give me that same feeling my teacher must of had
In regards to irresistible grace, that means that the Holy Spirit draws us unto salvation irresistibly correct? Then my question is, were the sacrifices of the old testament before Christ came, irresistible? Or did they choose to have faith and obey God and submit sacrifices for the various reasons in which God gave them? If it was by choice, then why is partaking in and submitting to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ all of a sudden now irresistible, and not by choice?
@ScottDaMoose Why do you ask if his sacrifice wasnt good enough? a dangerous statement to make! Of course Christ's death was all sufficient - the fact that many choose not to avail themselves of the blessing it provides is no detriment to God - shows no lack in his power or reduction in his sovereignty, as God desigend this first creation to operate in this way - He only wants to spend eternity with those who choose him voluntarily - he dies not want to be with God-haters & unrepentant rebels.
The doctrines of Grace are scripture... Cultural studies within the context of scripture show that the words ( All, World and Everyone ) Do not mean every single person or the entire persons of the human race. Israel was the only chosen nation prior to Christ and no one seems to have a problem with that, but when we say that God has elected some for salvation and others for destruction people experience anger because they like a soft gospel ( ROMANS 9) 22, but read the whole chapter!!!!!
derek4god777 1 month ago
I do believe in the doctrines of grace.... either way you believe this was a great debate full of love for eachother and God.
jwgibbons1 3 months ago
The arminian proponents were terrible. Im was an arminian who became a calvinist by pondering why I came to christ yet oters reject him - concluded grace. I came to this argument wanting to be convinced of arminianism...to escape the thoughts of divine reprobation. Yet I walk away convinced of its truth.It seems arminianism is based on philisophical notions of free will rather than any scriptures. These men were concluding some men are innately good -thats heretical.Need better armian debaters
Aaron637 4 months ago
Hebrews 10:26
tells it all
rjared 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I was curious about who John Calvin was. When I read about him, it is clear this man was totally unGodly, sending many to the stake. He would order the burning of those who dared to disagree with him, and he would command green wood to be used, so that the person being burnt alive would suffer the most horrific and prolonged death. Only the lucky were beheaded.This was a man of GOD!! ?? Calvin was downright evil!
He was no better than Mohammed.
JesuismyKing 5 months ago
I did enjoy this debate, but it seemed to be more concerned with emails than theology.
therampantscot 7 months ago
*An Note to all Arminian friends*
Christ does does not beg at our hearts door to save us.
He effectually safes us by his Grace without our permission, and therefore does not need us to invite him. THIS IS GRACE- NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!
Do not confuse God's grace!
FirebrandNIRE 7 months ago
My friend although you would like it to be this way, God had Planned Judas from eternity past to betray Christ and become the Son Of Perdition. The very Psalms themselves proclaim this very sobering truth. God made him a vessel of destruction to Glorify his own name. And to say he could have thwarted God's external decree in Election and Salvation is Blasphemous
FirebrandNIRE 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE God for knows all does he not? A being that knows all past, present and future does not need to plan anything, God already knows what everyone born and unborn will do, now and always so why would God need to make Judas betray Christ when Judas wicked ways would already be set, of course God has the power to make Judas do what he did for a purpose, but even before Jesus was born God knew Judas would do what he did, or knew he was unrighteous and would say that way,forever.
Shadowlooker12 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE So does it not make more sense to just push Judas towards what God wants him to do since he's going to be unrighteous and be sinful forever anyways. To believe that views that you have would be to say, God made Judas do what he did and made him into an unrighteous man to betray Jesus. Which sounds odd to me. It sounds like your view would have us believe god makes men into whatever he chooses based on his own plans, which would be unjust.
Shadowlooker12 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE An all knowing all powerful righteousness God that can do not do evil or bad, that is God, if God was to make a man sin, or make a man turn from him who would not already do it himself would be unjust. The only reason God would make Judas The son of perdition is if Judas (God being all knowing) would go to hell, never change regardless, so he uses him to glorify his own name because that does not void God's righteousness. Just like the pharaoh, he hardened his own heart 1st>>
Shadowlooker12 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE before God then comes in and hardened his heart further, this then does not void free will nor void God's nature, because he will only do things that are just, and making a man do something as such would not be just, unless he would do it anyway. This is foreknowledge, it's the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment. I would say yes your right "God had Planned Judas from eternity past to betray Christ", but only because he already knew Judas in all aspects and action.
Shadowlooker12 10 months ago
So why does Revelation 3 propose that God is knocking at the door and we need to open the door. Why not use an example of God as A gun holder and you have no choice?? Either God gives us the allusion as choice or God gives us real choice. I believe that a Just God gives us real Choice or God has condemned some humans to Hell as God sovereign will which God could do. I don't see God this way at all. He build humans with a free will and therefore we choose our destiny.
MRGV7373 10 months ago
@MRGV7373 If you care to read the chapter carefully Rev. Chapter 3 is not dealing with the unsaved, its deadling with the church (THE CLUE IS IN THE NAME) The problem here is with God's people the church the already saved.
FirebrandNIRE 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Good point. How about all the other choices I sent you? It would seem the the calvinist view would lead one to believe that sovereign means no choice but Sovereign means that God is control of all. Being in control does not exclude God from building a world of Choice controlled by humnas. God could make Humans with no choice but then love would not be a moral choice then would it?? After reviewing Calvanism, I believe that this theory is unGodly and satanic. Great Lie
MRGV7373 10 months ago
@MRGV7373
DId Christ Die for judas judas iscariot? Did Christ Die for the AntiChrist?
When you answer this I will deal with the rest.
FirebrandNIRE 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Yes for Judas and antiChist if human. In act 2 Peter preaches to the gathered Jews, If Judas and the AntiChirst were in the crowd they would have heard Peter say. In Act2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is a condition to the promise. Judas and the Anti would have to repent ... Juedas no repentance - he died, Anti won't bow down
MRGV7373 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Are not Judas and AntiChrist the greatest of Sinners. You and I?? So Romans 6 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
So I rest my case - Christ Died for the ungodly, Sinners - All people Now the the rest??
MRGV7373 10 months ago
@MRGV7373
So what you are telling me therefore is that Iscariot could have been saved and Antichrist can be saved?
Even though God Almighty who knows the beginning to end and who has foretold of their destruction,even though God has pronounced their demise by his Almighty Wrath, but you say otherwise.
I'm sorry I can't help with your nonsense teachings my friend.
FirebrandNIRE 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Yes, could have been saved. Both Peter and Judas totally deny the Lord. The differnece is that Peter came back to the Lord. Peter could have hung himself just as well. But Jesus and Father saw in Peter's heart that he would come back. Judas could have come back but did not. God and Jesus knew before hand from Judas's behavior and heart he would not. Judas could have come back just as well as Peter. God's knowing does not stop the offer of forgivness. Judas did not accept
MRGV7373 10 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Nowhere did it say that Judas Iscraiot was "elected" to "perform" in the scene that was prophecised many years prior thanks to the grace of the alpha and omega. However, the existence of Satan and his hold on individuals is an axiom so that one of the twelve chose to betray Jesus for silver was not such a far fetched conclusion that required Judas Iscraiot to be stripped of free will and the ability to refuse to serve as a tool of satan
politicaltourist 9 months ago
cprf.co.uk
Doulos7608 1 year ago
Notice the Arminian tapping his watch at the end of Romans 9:21-23. LOL. It seems to me that the BOTTOM LINE, is that Arminians want to glory in their own salvation because it comes down to a choice "they" made. For some reason, Christians feel "excluded" by the idea of election, and limited atonement. they shouldnt, because if you are a christian, then you are within that atonement and are of the elect. Fact is, you cant "woo" people to Christ, they have to be regenerated....by God.
spellbiff 1 year ago
That host is probably one of the most biased ive ever seen. Notice he didnt really ask the Arminian any questions other than "What is your response?", and he never said "God bless you" to the Calvinist until that was pointed out earlier. That's just disrespectful, and I'm not even 100% sure I'm a Calvinist.
musicbox2345 1 year ago
I"ve watched this entire debate and have come to this conclusion. If I could step through this screen and met that blabbering host. I would be in serious danger of breaking the 6th commandment. I"m gonna go repent now.
Mingler33 1 year ago 2
Also, when you read terms like elect, chosen, you must not dispense with the full revelation of New Testament explanations of the human role in the covenant God made in Christ - You are oversimplifying things tremendously to your great loss. The Gospel always involves a call to respond - to receive Christ, to repent, to believe, to be baptised etc. in order to be saved. This is what we are talking about here, and you still have failed to address the reality of thes simple instructions.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
ROFL
you are funny really funny
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
it isd right there in front of you and you cannot see it
if it were a snake you would have been bitten
I thank God that I he has used you to remind me how I too was once blinded to being able to see this thing that is right in front of you
all things work for the good of those that are called --even you lack of ability to see
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
there was a time I would have agreed with you
but now I see how ignorate I was in those days
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
please understand the laughter comes from the same place as
when my 5yr old says things like
"Daddy when you was little and lived with your mom where did I live there too?"
I cannot help but laugh it is both cute and ignorate at the same time
I just want to hug my child and say 'I love you baby, but you were not yet born"
this is why I laugh
your commens are on the same level
if only you could see what you are not seeing
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
an objection in motion tends to stasy in motion
God made science
with that thoought in mind
a sinner is much like this he will continue in sin until an outside source cause him to change his path
this is the order of things
1)man is a sinner
1)God interviens and causes the man to see his sin until the man is broken and cries out
the man will never "Respond" until God first interviens and opens his eyes
yes man respomds but not until after God begins the work
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
this is Reformed theology
God does the work or it is a false work
you fail to see that my theology does not say man doesn't respond as you think but it says man cannot and will not respond unless God First begins a work
then and only then can man cry out (after his eyes are opened)
then man receives a new spirit
man could not repenet with out this new spirirt
again
God does the work for good and man would continue in sin if he didn't
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
SO, Yes man must respond--But even the word Respond suggest Reformed theology
notice Responce is a Reaction to something not an initiating action
that being said: I believe the core of your problem is that you cannot accept that God does not choose to open the eyes of all men and yet scripture teaches this
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Instead
God choose to leave some men in the condition they are already in
He turns them over to their conditon instead of opening their eyes to the condition
(do you need scripture for this?)
for this : the very purpose of Crushing Pharaoh is the reason he gave Pharaoh power (Romans 9)
If God wanted to he could easly over come a man's stubborness to not wanting to his own sin
He did this very thing to Paul (and others)
He doesn't do this for all men just his elect
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I appoligize for laughing
my laughter is a responce to your comments that I find "patronizing"
U suggest I Repent and believe
what do you want me to Repent of? the fact I believe God has given me a new spirit that gives me tha ability to repent and if he had not given me that spirit my wicked heart would decieve me into thinking i was repenting with a false repentance?
do you want me to repeent of trust Christ has paid fopr my sin and given me a new repentant heart?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
That I wouldn't have a repentant heart if Christ didn't give me one. I would have a heart of stone and a false repentance thinking I was rep[enting when i really wasn't because I was trusting a wicked heart of stone
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
the problem comes to this
do you believe God --DOES or DOES NOT have the ability to overcome mans stubbroness and desire to continue in sin?
either HE can
1)overcome man's stubborness and chooses not to do this to all men like he did paul
or
2) He does not have the ability to over come all men's stubborness and love of sin
the view you hold says HE does not have this ability and man has to be the one to do it-- because God cannot overcome man's stubborness
so can he or not
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
Scott - again you miss the point. You are extrapolating scriptures about specific events, ( Israel, Pharoah, Judas), key events in Israel's history, where God overrides entirely human activity, But you cannot exegete these verses and apply them to individual salvation. Please - get yourself a study book on hermeneutics and exegesis. Also, you will find verses that apply to the church corporate - about them being chosen / elect etc. Again referring to the people of God corporate. not individual
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Ez 33:11: "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, *I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked*; but that the wicked turn from his way and lives: turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel."
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Deut 30:19: " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you
(1.) life and death,
(2.) blessing and curse;
therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:"
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Deut 30:14: "But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it. See, I have set before you this day:
(1.) life and good, and
(2.) death and evil;
In that I command you this day to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and the LORD your God shall bless …
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Why do you think James and Paul used Abraham as an example?
This truth that you cannot yet see is all through Scripture
have you ever noticed Paul always quotes from the "OT"?
There is a truth there that yoyu are missing it is going right over your head and you don't even know you are not seeing it thus making you ignorant of the whole truth
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
cont.. clearly we see here that what we do (purging ourself from sin, or not) determines our usefulness to the master. If we cleanse ourself, we are ready to be used by God, and become vessels of honour. If we don't, then we remain crude vessels of common nature. You have to agree that the dependant factor here is the action of man in lining up with God, or not, thus determining the resultant usefulness to God in service. God will not use a dishonoured vessel for noble purposes. So stop sinning!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
yep it clearly went right over your head
This like when my 5 yr old says "I want, I want, I want" and I try to explain finance to her and why I am not and endless supply of funds for her wants
She just doesn't get it
part of me wants to beat my head against a wall in frustration
the other part knows I need be patient and loving because she doesn't understrand
So I will tell you the same thiing I tell her
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
cont--
It is OK Honey I know you don't understand but maybe some day you will
maybe some day God will give you the understanding
and I leave you with these verses
Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given
notice the word "GIVEN"
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Ive never encountered such a patronising person, who, whilst claiming others dont see the obvious, fails to engage in the scriptural points made, the words clearly teaching you the opposite of your dogma. Break free from the cult Scott & read the Bible - all of it - and notice just how much God places responsibility on man to humble himself, get right with God, repent, follow, seek, ask, knock, pursue holiness etc. I prefer the instructions of God. God is source, man MUST respond.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
LOL
I told you I once was part of your belief system I know what it all about
you are not showing me anything I havent seen before
I moved on deeper into his glory and because you do not understand it you are trying to get me to go backwards
if you understood what I do you would see how it makes me fill like I am talking to a child
sorry
but you clearly just don't get it
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
Comment removed
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I you don't like this and it seems like I am patronising you
but it is the truth
It is not intended to be mean to you
It is just truth
you have a misunderstanding and you are so set on proving Reformed theolgy wrong you cannot even see your lack of understanding
It has not been given to you at this time to understand
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose I have repented of my sins, I have placed my faith in The Lord Jesus Christ - I believe his blood paid the price for my sins. I have been baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not trust my own works to save me but his, and I intend to fully remain in this place of grace till the day I die. In love for God I have ceased to sin consciously, and pray he forgives me for the times I do. I am filled with the Holy Spirit & believe every word in the Bible.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I never said you are not one of his
I don't know if you are or are not that for Christ to decide
rather -at this time you lack some understanding
in you statment you used the word "I" in a way that would indicate you are trusting in the fact that YOU have done something
While I will trust that Christ will do it all and I have done nothing
My trust is in Christ alone and his work alone
while you share that trust with what you have done---It can be seen in your words
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose You are definitely departing from scriptual instruction here now Scott. Christ and the Apostles always answered in the affirmative when people asked "what must we do to be saved?" ...
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" Acts 16
Jesus: "I am the door: by me if any man ENTER in, he shall be saved," Jn 10
Believing and entering are explicit human actions.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "...they were pricked in their heart & said unto Peter & to the rest of the apostles, Men & brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, & BE BAPTISED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Acts 2
what must we do? what must I do to be saved? IF what you say is true, Peter & Jesus would have replied - "you can do nothing, only God can do it". But they didnt. They answered in the affirmative, telling their hearers what to do!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mk 13:13
"He that BELIEVES and is BAPTISED shall be saved" Mk 16:16
"whosoever shall CALL ON THE NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
"IF YOU: ENDURE, ENTER BELIEVE, CALL, CONFESS : YOU SHALL BE SAVED"
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
just stop already
We all have our short commings
for me I am horrible as spelling and typing
But I can go to Home Depot spend $100 and build a solor panel and light my wife's flower garden without having to pay the electric company for the power
for you
you are trying to argue against something you do not fully understand
Please stop
If you understood exactly all that I have posted you wouldn't insult me with these arguments
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose - you are insulted by the gospel of Jesus Christ? and the words of his Apostles?.. OK - well now I know you are in a cult. Repent, believe, and you will be saved!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
can you not see the difference in my testimony and yours?
I was God's enemy and would have remained so had He not chosen to break me of my evil ways
I would never had repented had he not put a new spirit in me that causes me to repent and will not leave me alone when my flesh starts to desire sin.
He has done it all
and I have done nothing
Glory to God for what he has done!!!
while YOU think You have done something to earn your salvation---cont
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
cont---
and you think you have repented and pleased God with your work and because of your doing so he will give you salvation and if a man doesn't Repent he doesn't earn his salvation
While the reason I repent is because HE has given me a new spirit that causes me to repent and I would not repent had HE not given me this new spirit
if you cannot see the difference in our testimonies
then you have a serious problem
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose
"he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mk 13:13
"He that BELIEVES and is BAPTISED shall be saved" Mk 16:16
"whosoever shall CALL ON THE NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
The instructions of God. You claim that because I followed these instructions, my testimony is deficient?
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
"if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
yes and at the same time
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
as usual you keep giving only half of the problem
will you ever learn?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose I have already told you that I have placed my faith in The Lord Jesus Christ - I believe his blood paid the price for my sins. I have been baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not trust my own works to save me but his, and I intend to fully remain in this place of grace till the day I die. You wrongly claim I rely on my own actions to save me, when the actions I took indicate my reliance is solely on Christ and his actions, and his Blood and Spirit.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you have --"already told you that I have placed my faith in The Lord Jesus Christ"
this is the problem you are boasting in what you have done
man, you are thick headed
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Your trouble is - you think you can do nothing to please God, and are thus very deceived. Scripture tells us the opposite:
"Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us HOW YOU OUGHT TO WALK AND TO PLEASE GOD..." 1 Thess 4:1
You really ought to walk right in order to please God if you wish to obey him.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you said- "Your trouble is - you think you can do nothing to please God, and are thus very deceived. Scripture tells us the opposite"
true I cannot please God
but because HE has given me a new spirit and I have been "born again"
I can now please him because HE has given me a New spirit and the ability to do so
again ----you just don't get it, do you
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Of course we please God because he has placed his righteousness in us, and regenerated us - but it IS US pleasing God. We have to engage in his righteousness and 'outwork' it by obedience, self control, perseverence, renouncing sin, cleansing our hands, putting away the unclean thing etc. So you now agree the Christian can please God? You also must recognise that preconversion, as we repent & turn from sin, this is also due to the conviction and grace of God but still US DOING IT.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose hey Scott - friend - please try to stop insulting me with the patronising 'will you ever learn' stuff etc. - we are having an honest conversation about scripture and holy things here in mutual respect. Please engage the scriptures I am presenting - they really are quite plain in their meaning. Christ gave preconditions to inherit salvation. We must fulfill them. This is not self salvation, but OBEDIENCE to Christ.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
I appologize if you are insulted
if you must know I get this also from scripture
Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil
Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people
2Ch 30:8 Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were
Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked people,
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "[Jesus] was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world...as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" Jn 1
Christ enlightens every man that is in the world - ie he initiated this, not man. But man must respond. Those who respond & receive Christ he THEN GIVES THE RIGHT to become children of God. You got this the wrong way round. You twisted the order. 1. receive, 2. become a child of God.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
twisted the order?
let me review one more time
I was happy with my sin, mI liked having sex with different women, I liked, smoking pot, I liked my fast car, I liked masterbating, I liked my sin
it felt good and it pleased me and i didn't want to stop doing it
then GOD first breaks me down
my responce was--what is wrong with me
then-- HE opened my eyes to my sin
Then--he explained to me why he died on a cross
cont---
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Paul commended the Colossians thus:
"Since we heard of YOUR FAITH in Christ Jesus.." Col 1:4
- who's faith is he commending here - the people he wrote to YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST. So what is wrong with me proclaiming my faith in Christ - you think there is something wrong with this? not according to the Bible there isnt.
" I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that YOUR FAITH is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8)
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose and having given you sight of your sin, and sight of his glory and grace, had you not responded by repenting and believing, you would not have been saved! He did not repent for you! You did the repenting. You did the believing. It's of his grace, but you did it. It's YOUR faith in Christ. Christ put it there, but you received him - He cannot receive himself for you - you received him, and then he gave you the right to become a child of God. Thats what the Bible says.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
you said "and having given you sight of your sin, and sight of his glory and grace, had you not responded by repenting and believing"
Had God not shown me my sin I would have not cried out for salvation. When I cried out I had not yet Repented
It was not until He gave me a new spirit that I repented.
I even have biblical examples of this but you will not accept them just as you didn't understand the other points I made
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose James clearly explains that faith without works is dead. This verse is in the bible. In fact, James explains it well:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? See you how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness"
Clearly Abraham had a role! he believed God - faith in God not self.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
yes but not the way you use this verse
you create a contradiction with it
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Of course Faith comes forst, but faith is proven by works - Thats what James says. Abraham proved his faith by his works. He believed God, and obeyed him. God rewarded this by counting it as righteousness. You are the one who is creating the contradiction. You are claiming that believing in God is a work of the Law - it is not., It is relying on God NOT man. You are twisting the real meaning of law and faith.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
by what works did Abraham prove his faith?
the works that produced Ishmael
or
the works that produced Isaac?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
There is a dead works and the way you have used james is a dead works
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
The Works Jams is talking about is the works God has done to him that is on the inside and can be seen on the outside
He is talking about the works God does
so he mentions Abraham
why?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.
Gal 4:23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband."
Gal 4:28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Scott - you just directly contradicted James's own definition of works in this passage...
"faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you MY FAITH by MY WORKS."
James was talking about HIS works and HIS faith. I think you would also have argued with James if you had met him!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
AAAAAAA
here we go again
you have missed it again it flew right by you and you didn't even see it
James' work and James' Faith was given to him by God and this is why he could say he could show you his faith by his works
it was a true works given to him by God not a man's works
HE Wouldn't have those true works had God not given it to him
Just like there would be no Isaac had not given the child of promise
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
If God did not give them the ability to produce a good work what would have been the result of their works?
answer--Ishmael
God provided the child (Abraham's works)
James' Works was provided to him by God
If God had not given it to him he would not have been able to show his faith by his works
just like Abraham did
James could make this claim because God gave him the ability in Acts chapter 2
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Man cannot and will not come to Christ, believe, repent, do works if God does not give him the ability
this is the condition of sin and why we need a savior because we cannot save ourselves from this condition
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
Does it not concern you that you are present James and using that verse to give the same agrument as a Mormon, and a JW?
Mormons and JWs use the very same argument you dare using to justify their "works"
and yet they deny the diety of Christ and much more
tell me, sir Why should i listen to a person that gives the same argument as a Mormon?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Who is doing the giving and causing to happen here?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Again - you are using a scripture addressing corporate old covenant Israel to prove individual salvation - this is a wrong exegesis - Scott - I am not just saying this friend - you simply cannot overlay prophecies to ISRAEL over individual Christian experience. The nation to whom this was addressed, this also was said:
"as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose cont... Jesus said this to the same people: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent unto you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"
Does this mean the prophecy you refer to below failed? ~NO - by no means. Those who received Christ fulfilled the prophecy. God did indeed give them a new heart - he filled them with the Spirit at Pentecost...
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose cont 2... when Peter preached to gathered Israel. They asked "what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Acts 2 - ie HE TOLD THEM TO DO SOMETHING TO BE SAVED. you can contradict scripture all you like, I will receive the revelation of God on this. Peter actually replied: "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Can you believe this!? SAVE YOURSELVES.... the WORD OF GOD...
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you assume becuse God commands something that man can do it
this is a false assumption
try for just one mooment to picture God being sarcstic when he said these words
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
cont--
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
can you not see the sarcasism?
Man cannot create a new heart in himself
man can not do spiritual Heart surgery on himself
so what is God's solution?
cont---
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose you cannot be serious!!!! are you really claiming that Peter preached to the gathered men of Israel on Pentecost and gave them instructions on how to be saved that they could not follow? If this is what you are saying, you are an enemy of the truth!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules
and why does HE do this?
Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act
He does it for himself for his name sake!!
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose You are indeed correct - God is the one who puts a new heart in man, God is the one who acts for his name's sake - this is not in doubt - you keep trying to prove a given - With this I agree. But you are missing the necessary response of Man to the work of God - it really is so simple - how can you not see it - there are too many scriptures, so many, instructing men to obey, repent, turn, humble themself, submit to God, resist the devil, seek, ask, knock. These are given to obey...
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
This is the problem You fail to see that because of Sin, Man cannot give the "necessary response"
God draws the man and God opens the man's eyes and God gives man the ability to respond
Man alone cannot please God he must first have a new spirit then he can please God and he gets that new spirit from God
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
God must first open the Eyes of a lost man so a lost man can see his need of a savior
the man cannot cry out to God until his eyes are first opened and God
You seem to think God has opened the eyes of every man that has lived and is alive
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose You claim that God selectively opens only the eyes of the saved to receive salvation, and keeps the eyes of those who don't closed - and this is the decision of God, and man can do nothing to override the decision of God to save or damn. But scripture opposes this idea. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked - he seeks the retrieval of all people. see the above scriptures. You seem to be absolutely closed to the revelation of scripture and the obvious meaning as given...
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
True God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked
BUT!
This does not mean God does not choose to keep the eyes of some closed
for he is willing to SUFFER the death of some to show his glory to others
Notice he isn't taking pleasure in it bit he is doing it anyway
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you keep giving only half of scripture and hgalf the problem and half the solution
over and over you give only half
God takes no pleasure in creating some men for destruction but he endures the pain of it to show his glory to others.
He does this
He leaves them blind and crushes them to show his glory to his chosen few
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Why did he give Pharaoh his power?
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
He raised Pharaoh for the very purpose of crushing him and showing hias power to his chosen (Israel)
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I never said God takes pleasure in doing this
but He does do it
Joh 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'
Just like Pharaoh God chose Judas
He has chosen some to recieve and some to destroy and he does not take pleasure in the ones he has chosen for destruction
BUT HE does it any way and suffers the pain of it
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Isa 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me
Isa 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend
Isa 41:9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light
Isa 48:9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off.
I can go on and on and on
You will not see it if God has not shown you
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I suggest you ask God to show you truth and even if you don't like it at first that you accept the truth what ever it may be that He shows you
and after --if he chooses to show you
--that He open your heart the the magnificent wonders of being chosen by God to receive that which you do not deserve.
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@ScottDaMoose "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness; Because that which may be KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM; for GOD HAS SHOWED IT TO THEM. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "God has made of one blood all nations of men in order to dwell on all the face of the earth... That they should seek the Lord, if lest by any means they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from EVERY ONE OF US: For IN HIM WE LIVE, and move, and have our being... as we are the offspring of God.. now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent:"
Thie was said en bloc to a city of pagans. If you oppose this command of God claiming it is impossible, you oppose God!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
This is the problem You fail to see that because of Sin, Man cannot give the "necessary response"
God draws the man and God opens the man's eyes and God gives man the ability to respond
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him
true faith comes from who? GOD!
Man alone cannot please God he must first have a new spirit then he can please God and he gets that new spirit from God
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose The difference between the wise & foolish man was not that God chose one and not the other etc. as you deceptively suggest, but that one obeyed Christ and God, and acted accordingly. Read this to prove my assertion:
"why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not DO THE THINGS I SAY? Whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built a house on a rock..."
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose
"we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God has given TO THOSE THAT OBEY HIM." (Acts 5:32)
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you keep giving only half the problem and not the whole
I keep using the OT to show you there is a common thread from Gen to Rev
But you clearly cannot yet see it
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Paul says his Hope is that God will Grant repentance
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Just as (inspite of my frustration) my hope is that God opens your eyes
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God's grace in order to be regenerated
Synergism says man must do something to receive Grace!!
this is man's works
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
1 Cor 12:3-----no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit
how do we get the Holy Spirit?
God gives it
and who decides who God gives it to? God
Shining a light into a blind man's eyes will not enable him to see, because eyesight first requires a set of healthy eyes
It is God that FIRST opens eyes so they can see
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Isa 44:18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand
Exo 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose you arent reading the bible verses - youre simply speaking but not listening. I have rarely encountered such a closed minded person who calls themself a Christian. You are seriously opposing the commands of God by claiming they are impossible when God says otherwise - Youre in a very dangerous position I fear. I am leaving these verse with you to consider and laying this down now. I urge you to decide to repent, humble yourself, place YOUR faith in Christ. The only way to be saved.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Gal 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."
Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
It was humanly imposible for Sarah and Abraham to have another child
why do you think god waited so long?
He was waiting until it was imposible for man
So HE could do the work in them producing true works and true faith
It always comes back to God doing the work in a person producing faith and producing repentance
It is the Work God does not man
I hav been trying to show you this the whole time
and now you have used James
to come full circle to the story I began with
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
notice the word "granted" in these verses
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
I love this next one
Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
Again you are misquoting verses about Old covenant Israel and the shift to Gentile conversion. God granted repentance to the Gentiles, and they came into the church in their droves. He opened salvation to all peoples, not just through Israel. This is not about personal salvation! I have said already, God initiates the proces of conversion, and gives light to all men, draws men, but it is up to the man whether to receive Christ, or resist the Holy Spirit. God does not believe for us.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
Acts 11:18
Granted what?
"Granted repentance"
let us keep going
Granted what?
Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
I can go on and on all day showing you that you give only half of the problem and half of the answer
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose NO! - I am fully in agreement that it is granted to men to see God, to know about God, to even exist in the first place - All is of God. But still, having been granted to repent and believe, man must then do it - otherwise why does the gospel need to go out - the message of good news - You are the one who has half the story. It is not the end that God draws and enlightens. Man must respond, and not resist. Man must repent, after it is granted. Man must believe & endure to the end.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
You are close once again
you said "I am fully in agreement that it is granted to men to see God" etc...
the only thing you are missing is that Man will not and cannot do this thiongs if it is not granted
and it is because some have not been granted this that they do not repent
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32
God gives the Spirit to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM. you seem to claim its the other way round. There is a vital role to play in this process by man. God gives his Spirit to those who OBEY. Abraham was granted righteousness because he BELIEVED and OBEYED.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose repentance is not a work of the law! It is a turning away from reliance on the law, and self, to relying on God. Repentance is the END of self-works - that is the reason its the only thing God is looking for in a man - No work is good enough - repentance is acknowledgement of the end of reliance omn self righteousness, and reliance only on God in Christ.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Jas 2:24
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
here we go again
you are only giving half of the problem and you cannot even see that you are
this is why i call you hard headed
I love the use of the Jas 2:24
the Mormons use this verse all the time to justify their works
so do the JW
they do so not know it creats a contradiction to Paul by using it that way
when we know Paul and James are in agreement (Gal 2 and Acts 15)
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
you have said God commands us to repent and a command is a law
hence (Ten commandments)
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them
by using James 2:24 the way you have used it, you have created a contradiction just as the Mormons do when they use it that way
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose What is God looking for in man? What are we told to do to be saved...
"repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21)
What was Paul's message to the world?...
"they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20)
I think you would have argued against Paul wouldnt you Scott, and told him he had a lot to learn?!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose please read this carefully. See that what we do in response to God's call to stop sinning is key...
"Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold & of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. IF A MAN THEREFORE PURGE HIMSELF from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and READY FOR THE MASTER'S USE and prepared unto every good work." 2 Tim 2)
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I have read it and you have a conflict that your doctrins explain in a wrong way
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose
Let explain this again
My 5 yr old knows the city she lives in by name but she doesn't fully understand yet the limites of that city and were the next city is
she ask me all the time is this ___ville or ___ville
Then When I show her on a globe how she has family in Brazil she sees the globe but doesnt' full grasp the distance
there is an understand of size and distance she has not yet gained
cont--
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose This is God's view - I know it conflicts with your 'enlightened' dogma, but the Word of God takes precedence every time:
To those who God has drawn & offered to reform & enlightened, & taught, & influenced towards salvation, but who have used their God-given freedom wrongly:
"you do always resist the Holy Ghost (GOD)" (Acts 7:51)
"IF YOU WILL NOT be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; THEN will I also walk contrary unto you.." (Lev 26:23)
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I am done here
you cannot see because at this time it has not been given to you
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
Let explain this again
My 5 yr old knows the city she lives in by name but she doesn't fully understand yet the limites of that city and were the next city is
she ask me all the time is this ___ville or ___ville
Then When I show her on a globe how she has family in Brazil she sees the globe but doesnt' full grasp the distance
there is an understand of size and distance she has not yet gained
cont--
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I am not calling you a child but
Trying to debate with you is like talking to my daughter in the sense that you have not yet gained some understanding
so when some things are placed before you like the globe for my daughter
you still don't see what I am trying to say
I gave you an answer to all of your arguments but it went over your head
you are not getting it
this is why I will not engage with you on your level
jsut like I do not engage my daughter
in time u will see
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose I choose the instructions of Christ & the Apostles who told me what to do to be saved, so I did it. I believed in Christ, I called on his name, I repented of my sin, I entered into Christ the narrow way, I confessed Christ is Lord, I intend to endure to the end. Nobody can do this for me.
Of course I describe my actions towards God, this is my testimony.
What is your testimony Scott? Have you not done these things also? If not, you will not be saved according to the Bible.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
you said "so I did it. I believed in Christ, I called on his name, I repented of my sin, I entered into Christ the narrow way, I confessed Christ is Lord, I intend to endure to the end. Nobody can do this for me"
can you not see the typical American narcissism in your statement?
you boast in what you have done to receive salvation
Do you not know that even this narcissism is a sin
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
What is my testimony?
I was a sinner that wanted nothing to do with God & I was his enemy
God chose to break me of my self-centered sinful ways and open my eyes to my need of a savior too save me from my condition
God drew me to himself and opened my eyes to what he did on the cross when he took the full wrath of sin on himself
God continued to break me more
Then HE left me on my knees broken and in desperate need untill I submitted and cryed out for salvation
Then---
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
Then--HE awakened my consience & caused me to repent and turn from the man I was
I could now now see I had no other choice but to turn and continue to repent daily as my flesh desires to sin but my new spirit that HE has placed in me will not leave my alone as He works his work in me
As Peter said--"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
I would have contiued on my path of destruction had God not chosen to do this thing to me
much in the same way Saul would have continued on his path Had God not Blinded him on the road to Damascus or Jacob would have continued his twisted ways until God wonded his thigh at the ford Jabbok
If God had not chosen to stop me right on the path I was on and break me down until I submitted to him I would still be on that same path of destruction
cont--
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
cont--
So I thank God he chose to take my sin on himself to save me from the wrath to come
and I Thank God
He chose to stop me in my path of destruction and break me down until I cried out to him for salvation from my sinful condition
and nI thank God that he has given me a new spirit so that now I may repent and seek him
For I would have done none of these thing on my own had he not chosen to break me and see what He has done
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve
There was a time when I took "Trig" and it made little sence to me and I seen no use for it so i would sit in class and make fun of what I didn't understand
then years later I went to Electrical school and studied Electrical principals
All of a sudden I understood Trig. and I could see it's application
looking back I can see how my High School teacher felt when he tried to explain trig to me
you give me that same feeling my teacher must of had
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
In regards to irresistible grace, that means that the Holy Spirit draws us unto salvation irresistibly correct? Then my question is, were the sacrifices of the old testament before Christ came, irresistible? Or did they choose to have faith and obey God and submit sacrifices for the various reasons in which God gave them? If it was by choice, then why is partaking in and submitting to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ all of a sudden now irresistible, and not by choice?
Johnnytm21 1 year ago
"he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2:2
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
John was a Jew writing to Jews----the "Whole World" in the eyes of a Jew would be anyone else that is not Jewish
The Jewish view is "Us and Them" Jew and not Jew (the rest of the world)
so
That could be read ----but also for the sins of those that are not Jewish (whole world)
If he died for the whole world the way you use it then why do many still perish in Hell? was his sacrafice not good enough for everyone (whole world)
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
@ScottDaMoose Why do you ask if his sacrifice wasnt good enough? a dangerous statement to make! Of course Christ's death was all sufficient - the fact that many choose not to avail themselves of the blessing it provides is no detriment to God - shows no lack in his power or reduction in his sovereignty, as God desigend this first creation to operate in this way - He only wants to spend eternity with those who choose him voluntarily - he dies not want to be with God-haters & unrepentant rebels.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve
So some people don't choose Christ---BECAUSE? of sin?
Then Christ didn't suffer and pay the price for the sin of unbelief.
your view means his sacrafice wasn't good enough for all sins
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago