@pcbarter I offer biblical evidence in the other video. I understand why you don't want to deal with it. However what you are saying is downright silly. Doctors would warn you to stay away from dangerous levels of radiation but will actually give them to you in a controlled manner in order to save you.
@21crosscheck21 oh I like this comment! can't wait to talk to my neighbour (a JW for 40yrs), she's a really nice lady it's funny coz' I know when she's talking to me she's feeling sorry for me and at the same time I'm feeling sorry for her..lol.
so if you are in an emergency situation it would be ok to be a canaibal too? Not equating blood to canibal but as an illustration. Blood transfusions were n0ot around when the Bible was written but the intake or eating (same basic thing as transfusion) is. 3 pifitol times in Bible history. Noah,Mosaic law and Christians all were prohibited from taking in blood. Illegal drugs were not around but the principle applies to abstain from such things also.
@pcbarter Yeah,,, that's what the Watchtower used t teach about organ transplants and blood parts. Now are both very acceptable after they flip flopped and many died for their error. Transfusing is not the same thing as eating. Go ask any MD. What will you do when they flip flop on this as well?
@21crosscheck21 Go see my video called "Blood and Mercy" and you will see Jews eating blood in a desperate situation and God not holding it against them proving that even if eating and transfusing were the same (which they are not) you are still wrong according to the scriptures to allow someone to die in an emergency situation.
When an MD claims to be Gods only channel of communication I will worry about their flip flops but as of yet I know no MD who has ever flipped flopped on that.
Oh Please ,! how rediculious . I had cancer and easily got other treatments and much better Doctors and most modern treaments. Many hospitals are seeing the benefits of no blood surgery. Google cell saver, or cell salvage.
This guy is wacky and bends the truth and facts. And if you are going to get a surgery that may much blood loss , look into the cell salvage, hemoDilution, and many other treatments a GOOD doctor and hospital can provide. And a better recovery time.
@pcbarter Having a planned operation is very different then a emergency trauma situation. And on a worldwide scale very few have access to bloodless surgery some barely have access to antibiotics. . Either way though the bible DOES NOT ban blood transfusions.
NOT having the life and dead necessary operation, because of the circus of having to deny a bloodtransfussion, is VERY common among the Jehovahs Witnesses. JW's may not die often at the table, but most certainly die often in their bed when the untreated cancer eats them up inside. I have been at too many funerals on that behalf to continue to fool myself about "the best treatment".
this organization is run and built on satan lies, just like the muslims religion is, a angel of light, none other than satan him self, this people are in for a fear full awaking at the judgment day, depart from me for i never knew you the lord will say, my only hope is that these people will start thinking for them selves and start leting the bible be there final authority rather than a organization built on satans lies, there is hope for them so keep spreading the true gospel
It hurts to know that parents allow their interpretations of Scriptures to immobilize their responsibilities of protecting their children. God have mercy on their souls.
The take pre-dated pictures of children and put them on the cover of Awake magazine when they are healthy and alive and make it look like they are happy to die by giving their lives by refusing blood. Sick perversion individuals of the Watchtower Society.
Have you had a chance to ask for clarification about the role of angels in delivering 'new light' messages to the governing body? Since 'new light' can result in JWs completely reversing any given teaching, one would think it would be important to understand as much as possible about new light and how it is imparted to men on earth.
Sabian and Catch ...you guys still on that delivery service thing? Cmon...the bottom line is that the Angels do not talk to humans to give messages . The Governing body just thinks about what to come up , they sit down on wednesdays and the say a prayer and they vote on what to publish. Thats how New Light is brought to the Members of the Loving Christian congregations of the Jehovah's Witnesses. ( I may be wrong on the weekly day of voting ..lol) ..YEAHHHHHHH
No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Courts official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as Head of Jehovahs faithful and wise servant class. He MERELY uses the servant class to publish the interpretation AFTER the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
Part 3: The truth is that the GB has made the case in it's publications that is is a "Channel" of the information that Jehovah gives to it through Angelic messengers. So who is responsible when the Society has given false prophecies?
Sorry, I forgot the W.T. quote to backup the last post:
No man can properly interpret prophecy, and the Lord sends his angels to transmit CORRECT information to his people, and when these truths come to his people and the facts fit the prophecy, then they should take it as from the Lord and receive it with rejoicing.
haha...Sabian...your getting it all wrong ..that Yes answer was from the first question you asked me in regards if I am enlighten people with my Watchtower rhetoric. go back and read the post . I already answered the Question about God almighty...go back and read
hey Sabian ..I'm going to be in Vegas the next few days...I will get you the scans. If you want. you can PM me your email address and I can send them to you quicker.. its up to you
No problem Sabian , I have more ...but I will just give you the ones closer to 1950. Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 pg 339 " Jehovah commands all to Worship Jesus" .........Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 pg. 313 " To worship Jehovah's chief agent ..Jesus Christ" ....If you dont have access to these pubications...I can send you my scanned publications that go WAAAAAAAAY!!! back. I have a passion for knowing the Origins and history of the watchtower....really amazing stuff
please mail me the 2 examples (only the specific pages from WT 1939 & 1945). Thanks already for that !
By the way, I still would like to know if the "yes" you answered yesterday, reffered to my question to you about Jesus being the Almighty God. Your first direct was "I'm confused" and then you mentioned those old Watchtowers up 'til 1947.
So are you just confused about it, or is it: Yes, Jesus is the Almighty God.
I listened to J.R Brown audio interview with the reporter that she recorded regarding the Bethel Elder that got Arrested for trying to lure boys for sex and it disgusted me how Brother Brown had lied sooooo much on that interview . LIAR!!!! LIAR, LIAR!!!!
all my comments I make are based on research and truths. Just like you get a kick out of trying to debate Ex JW's and so called Apostates , I get a kick out of shedding the truth of what goes on in the inside of the organization. My best friend is an elder and we collaborate facts , he really is a big help to me . Yeahhhhhhhh
dadof2lilqueens wrote: >"Just like you get a kick out of trying to debate Ex JW's and so called Apostates"
Are you joking? How do you know my kicks?
You also wrote: >"I get a kick out of shedding the truth of what goes on in the inside of the organization."
You really are a uniting power in Jehovah's organisation brother! Do you really make people happier when you share your enlightened viewpoint with them?
Ouch, your answer is yes.............(silence)..................
That explains the many critical JW watchers amongst your YT friends. What can I say ? Though I'm shocked, I respect your honesty, but why do you stick to old light from pre-1947 ? You can't preach that from door to door ! Do you also stick to old light that allowes Christmas and the use of the cross ?
You made a good point why I stick to old light pre 1947. Now lets say if Jesus was here on Earth pre 1947 dates. Would Jesus say that what the Watchtower is teaching acceptable. I think that is the most important question. I'm trying to put my feet in Jesus sandals here. No pun intended
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "Now lets say if Jesus was here on Earth pre 1947 dates. Would Jesus say that what the Watchtower is teaching acceptable. I think that is the most important question. I'm trying to put my feet in Jesus sandals here."
You know what Jesus did when he walked the earth in the 1st century. John 12:50: Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them].
Jesus wouldn't reveal new light unless the Father would permit him to (Acts 1:6 !)
Catch....its fruitless to try and reason with SAbiansymbols. Its obvious that his only defense is the Watchtower pubs and not his own understanding. He needs to dig deep to come up with his answers via Watchtower. If they Watchtower told him the sky is Green ...he will say its green . Let it go Catch. he will eventually delete his acct and go by another name like most JW's on youtube.
I understand where you are coming from dadof2lilqueens but I still have more I want to ask about this subject. This video raised some very good questions which deserve some answers. So far, I haven't heard anything from the JWs here that I can accept.
oh thats an easy answer to a question . "Because I believed the doctrines that were I was taught" and its sad that the Governing Body does not teach the anymore and I had to do my own research as to why this Org does what it does and its not New LIght , its all about changing doctrines to cover their ass's. I am here to let all JW's and Ex Jw's know the real truth. I'm sure you understand it too but wont admitt it . Have a nice day
Wow, yeah good comment dadof2lilqueens. That's another thing that really bugs me... theocratic warfare. I didn't want to bring it up because I'm trying to use this video as a focal point. But yeah, theocratic warfare does seem like a convenient way for justifying 'C.Y.A' (cover your ...).
I have come to terms that Theocratic Warfare is the "only" way to make a point when it comes to the Organization. Since the Org uses it for their beneifit...I find exquisite delight reversing it on them. That J.R Brown who is the spokesman for the Watchtower is the biggest joke since the Devil started talking. He is really good at what he does ..Covering up and lying.
Nah dadof2lilqueens, I haven't heard you say anything that was untrue. I'd have to go back and reread all your comments to be sure but I'm usually pretty good at recognizing BS when I hear it. I probably just misunderstood you just now.
Well...I'm confused...bcuz the Watchtower worshipped Jesus til 1947. Nathan Knorr changed it to Jehovah only. This is where we teach all those that we try to convert that it was "Old Light" and now the Governing body have " New Light" . so this is what I teach
dadof2lilqueens wrote: >"I'm confused...bcuz the Watchtower worshipped Jesus til 1947"
? In 1931, the organisation embraced the distinctive name Jehovahs Witnesses. Did they teach Jesus was the Almighty God or that Jehovah is Jesus in those next 16 years until 1947? In The Watchtower of Jan. 1, 1926, the principal article was called Who Will Honor Jehovah? & in 1929 it was also pointed out that the outstanding issue facing all intelligent creation involves the honoring of Jehovahs name.
Sabathiafan.....so you agree the Watchtower instructed its members to Worship Jesus ? Just looking for a Yes or No answer . No need to cut and paste and elaborate.
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "so you agree the Watchtower instructed its members to Worship Jesus ? Just looking for a Yes or No answer . No need to cut and paste and elaborate."
LOL, you forgot the 3d option: I don't know. My WT Library goes back to 1950 and my oldest book is Rutherfords "Children" from 1942. You can send me an older article if you wish, I'm still open minded.
If you do I will read it tomorrow. I just got home from our meeting, bedtime now. See you tomorrow guys !
and Sabathiafan...I can give you the Watchtower articles by date if you still dont believe it , so you can look up yourself. I speak based on Truth and Facts. Can you dig it C.C?
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "I can give you the Watchtower articles by date if you still dont believe it , so you can look up yourself. I speak based on Truth and Facts. Can you dig it C.C?"
I can dig it, but what's your point here? Are you using the organisation's history to teach everyone "true light" that we should not listen to the Governing Body and accept blood transfusions?
When you became a JW, I assume that you sincerely reckognised the Governing Body as Jehovah's earthly channeI?
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
This video is so FULL of INACCURACIES it is hard to even begin to comment. And you have really stooped to a new low involving kids ...probably your own in such hate speech against the JW.
The bible states to ABSTAIN from blood.....We listen to God not man. The JW have been VINDICATED with their stance on blood and the policy will not change I assure you.
Jake, I rationalize nothing but you do. Do you believe that a heart transplant is cannibalism? Of course you don't and praise God your leaders recognized their ignorance and changed their stance on that.
But it is that very same rationalization that leads to death in the blood issue.
Jake how will you feel if this policy you defend changes.... new light is possible right? or are they infallible on this issue?
You rationalize everything in scripture 21 to fit your daily need.
The bible is CLEAR as DAY....Abstsain from Blood.
Medical doctors in the past have given blood to their patients to cure Epilepsy.....it was the new high tech method of its day.....now we know it is false...Then Doctors throughout Europe infused animal blood into their patients...why?...to save their lives....Hmmm...it was the high tech method of the day...it also proved FALSE....Don't buy everything scientist tell you 21
Jake I see you are unable to respond to what I asked you in the comment... I think we all know why.
The sad thing about the rest of what you are saying is that you seem to infer that NO ONE is helped by blood transfusions. That is to absurd to even comment on.
21...as a health care professional I can tell you that blood transfusions are not what they are cracked up to be. Thanks to the JW scientist have found many ways around blood transfusions...one day they will be obsolete....not the other way around in that the JW will change their belief. Hospitals around the world are going bloodless and patients...many of whom are Born Again are requesting surgery without blood.....This is just another angle for you to spew your JW hatred.
21 I think you should apply to be on the governing board.......No we have not changed our mind about the sanctity of blood. We stand justified and proud that we have listened to God and not man.
The truth is that you believe everything the governing body tells you to believe even if it directly contradicts your long term deeply held prior beliefs. The governing body is comprised of men. You said you don't listen to men but of course you do. You and others say that these directives actually come from God but how can that be when new light directly contradicts previous new light? If biblical truth is unchanging then logically either new light is wrong or the previous new light was wrong.
hmmmm...wasn't it the Protestants that used to burn witches...New Light?
How about your church 22...did they used to celebrate Halloween?....Not any more.....New Light?.....How about Easter....have you changed that to "Resurrection Sunday"? New Light?
Jake lets not be silly here with the witch burning comments.... they may have called themselves Christian but were they? Anyone can call themselves a "christian."
Let me ask you..... the jws in the news for molesting kids...... are they really dedicated jws? The lady who cut the head off her baby a month or so was a jw... or so she claimed.
Your entire ministry 21 is to shed bad light on God fearing Christians....Your command, by the One you claim to be your leader, is to Preach the Good News of God's coming Kingdom. Not to be hostile towards JW.
The JW do not believe in Salvation by works 21...You know that but until the day you die you will try to use that against us. Now let me remind you what your leader and exemplar told you to do....Seek FIRST the Kingdom and GOD"S RIGHTEOUSNESS and all else will be given to you.
And here is another for you 21....James 2:
14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 I
21 how many times must we review this.You really need to concentrate your efforts on mormons or muslems.
There is Salvation ONLY ONLY thru the shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is the ONLY avenue that Jehovah has provided for the salvation of mankind.
John 14
6 Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
Perhaps you should preach to your own Born Again Brothers ex Billy Graham who thinks there are other ways?
There are JWs knocking on doors right now who do not truly know if they will be saved or not. The do not know if they have done enough in field service to deserve it. That's the point. If they believed in faith alone then they would not have such doubt now would they? But back to the video... if new light comes telling you transfusions are ok, will you reject new light or reject your currently deeply held belief on the transfusion ban?
22...JW don't knock on doors to get saved. Whoever....whatever idiot told you this is a liar. We knock on doors because Jesus commanded us to make disciples of all the nations.....and that's exactly how the apostle Paul preached....door to door. And the transfusion issue will not be turned over by the JW...because we have been vindicated by our stance...Soon blood transfusions will be l'histoire.
That is so true brother. I mentioned it before at this topic but there is a certain resistence amongst our Christian friends around here, I think mainly because we're Jehovah's witnesses.
Bloodless surgery is one of the fastest growing fields in medicine. JW's were pioneers in this field but it actually might have implications for everybody out there (as health specialist dr. Sean Kenniff said on CBS health news)
Again, I don't understand what bloodless surgery has to do with your belief. Does medical science affect your belief in some way? I mean you believe what you do because you believe it is so written in the bible right? I'm only interested in why you believe what you do.
>"I don't understand what bloodless surgery has to do with your belief. Does medical science affect your belief in some way?"
No, but e.g. in Moses days, sewage disposal by burying excreta was a sanitation requirement far in advance of the times. (De 23:12-14). It protected the people against the spread of germs (discovered by scientists only in recent centuries).
To me, the succes of bloodless surgery is just proof that JW's were not wrong about refusing bloodtransfusions.
I do not believe God gets things wrong and would need to change his mind later and correct himself by replacing previous new light with current new light. New light has been wrong before so I remain highly skeptical.
So bloodless surgery has nothing whatsoever to do with your belief it just helps you to feel better about it? Again, I'm only asking you why you believe what you believe at this point not how you rationalize it so you can live with yourself.
Catch22here says: "So bloodless surgery has nothing whatsoever to do with your belief it just helps you to feel better about it? Again, I'm only asking you why you believe what you believe at this point not how you rationalize it so you can live with yourself"
I'm not rationalizing, I believe with or without medical support. Surprisingly enough you seem to be irritated by interesting medical facts that support our viewpoint.
Sabianfan wrote: "Surprisingly enough you seem to be irritated by interesting medical facts that support our viewpoint."
Well, in that case you can disabuse yourself of any such notion. I just don't understand why you bring it up when I'm asking about why you believe what you do. I didn't ask how you feel about it. Once again, if new light comes tomorrow that says transfusions are a matter of choice will you accept that despite the fact that you would die for your belief in the blood ban today?
1/2 Catch, please. My belief and my feelings cant be split. I have worked as a nursing assistent in a hospital for 4 years. This topic simply justifies me to add some medical information, right?
1st, I think it's good to show the other side of the story that crosscheck is hiding in this "emotional" video. Like Jake said earlier, its full of inaccuracies !
2nd, I already stated earlier that it would be highly improbable that there will be new light that allows bloodtransfusions.
Our viewpoint was always based on Acts 15:28,29. Everybody who reads the Bible can see that God gave his prohibition on blood BEFORE the Law (Gen.9:4), BY the Law (Lev. and AFTER the Law, (Acts 15:28,29). Our viewpoint has always been criticised, but now finally people can see the outcome. So why change it in a time that more and more non-JW's see the benefits and ask for bloodfree surgery ? That wouldn't make any sense, so I guess this is your No and Here is why !
So you would leave the organization if they came out with new light saying blood transfusions are a matter of personal choice? That's about what saying 'no and here is why' would amount to you know. It would be indicative of dangerous independent thinking and would not be accepted by the society.
Catch, why would I leave an organisation that learned me everything that Satan's system of things didn't want me to know ?
It were JW's who knocked at my door, not mainstream Christians, not Jews, not muslims, not even Mormons ! As a Catholic I could morally do everything I wanted, I was independent, but also unaware of the biblical truth about Jehovah and his Kingdom.
Remember the devil told Adam and Eve to become independent ? As you said...everything is a matter of personal choice...
You would be forced out Sabianfan. If you would refuse to accept the new light making it ok to accept a transfusion then you would either have to conform or you would very likely be disfellowshipped.
That's not true. When the Governing Body would allow blood transfusions, it would simply be "a matter of personal choice" (your own words quoted here Catch).
By the way Catch,
why didn't you answer Jake's question about Halloween ?
And why didn't you answer my question about the purpose of the Governing Body in the 1st century ?
When I asked would you accept the new light I also meant everything that goes with it... teaching it to others for example. I realize that if your given a choice you might choose no. That wasn't exactly what I was asking. For example, would you be willing to challenge new light if it directly contradicts your deeply held belief that the bible bans transfusions? As for your question about the GB there is a pretty good vid by Shazoolo (I think) about that. I'll try to find it for you.
Catch22 said: "For example, would you be willing to challenge new light if it directly contradicts your deeply held belief that the bible bans transfusions?"
Shortly before a JW gets baptised, he must answer 2 questions.
The 2nd question is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovahs Witnesses in association with Gods spirit-directed organization?
I answered the question with a loud yes so I'll stay loyal, but such new light will NOT come!
bloodtransfusions have done more harm than good. God is love, when we refuse bloodtransfusions we obey Gods prohibition on blood and we show our faith & trust.
Bloodless surgery is safe, cheaper and many have a faster recovery !
If JW's would take blood transfusions who should be held responsible for medical errors and complications, leading to death ?
James 1:13:...For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
Sabianfan wrote: "bloodtransfusions have done more harm than good."
I believe you are mistaken. Blood transfusions have saved many lives over the years. Therefore, it does not follow that it is an evil thing. There are risks with any medical procedure. If there are errors and complications which amount to negligence on the part of the doctor or hospital then they would be accountable. Once again, how do you know the governing body won't have new light and end the ban on transfusions?
Catch22 wrote: "Blood transfusions have saved many lives over the years. Therefore, it does not follow that it is an evil thing"
In many cases, "old fashioned" doctors will tell their patients that they probably will die without blood transfusion. The strange thing is that on the other hand, no doctor can assure that someone will absolutely stay alive when he accepts blood transusion. Ask yourself, why?
Did you actually read WT publications about blood or did you visit our official website?
Catch22here wrote: "Once again, how do you know the governing body won't have new light and end the ban on transfusions?"
This seems to be 'that one question' for you. I gave you scriptural clues and some medical reasons, but still you seem to feel uncomfortable with the new light concept. Can't you just accept that it will not change ? If not, I guess you'll be waiting quite a long time (at least 'til the return of the glorified Christ, when the whole world will get their ultimate answer).
Sabianfan, I am uncomfortable with the new light concept. New light has changed prior deeply held beliefs of JWs before so it is conceivable to me that new light might one day end the transfusion ban. If you believe the bible prohibits transfusions strongly enough to die for that belief then why would you let 9 men from New York tell you otherwise? If they are truly God's channel of communication here on earth then why does new light often contradict previous new light? Does God make mistakes?
"New light has changed prior deeply held beliefs of JWs before.."
What changes are you referring to?
"If you believe the bible prohibits transfusions strongly enough to die for that belief..."
It has nothing to do with wanting to die. We enjoy life, therefore we want the best medical care & we'll accept transfusions without blood. Death would be the last option.
"Does God make mistakes?"
No, but imperfect men sometimes do. Still God works with them.
Whether or not organ transplants are allowed, the definition of the generation that would not pass before Armageddon, the teaching on who the 'higher authorities' are, whether or not blood fractions are allowed, whether or not JWs in Bulgaria should be disfellowshipped if they take transfusions with red blood cells, when the current system of things will come to an end (no one knows and yet as you know predictions have been made before). Should I go on?
I believe you when you say you don't want to die Sabianfan. I said you are willing to die for your belief in the ban on blood transfusions not that you are eager to die. It's an important distinction.
"No, but imperfect men sometimes do. Still God works with them. "
I agree. Men make mistakes. The governing body are men who are not infallible by your own admission. So why shouldn't you question them when they have new light... which has proven to need the correction of later new light.
Thanks for the specifications Catch, now let's focus on 2 things.
1st. Only God has absolute truth. Jesus said Gods word is truth (John 17:17). New light doesn't change that word, but only improves our understanding or interpretation of that word.
2nd. We can only descern new light under influence of Gods spirit. Sometimes God allows an incomplete understanding (mainly caused by imperfection of men) until HE reveils new light, according to his divine timetable and always at the proper time.
The examples you gave didn't change basic bible teachings. In Hebrews 6:1,2 Paul speaks about the primary doctrine of the Christ (repentence about dead works, the resurrection of the dead, everlasting judgement etc.). New light doesn't change those doctrines.
* Organ transplants are not mentioned in the bible.
* The definition of the generation (one of my 1st WT studies in 1995, I wasn't shocked at all !) didn't change God's timetable for Armageddon.
* It's interesting that the new light about the higher authorities came after WW II. The old light was wrong, but nevertheless served the brothers & sisters during heavy persecution because it surely helped them to endure.
* Blood fractions is something different than whole blood. It's made possible by modern medical techniques. WT says it's a personal decision, it's not a doctrine.
* Honestly, I don't know what to think about Bulgaria. Maybe it was only a formal concession ?
*1) Correct. The directive to refuse organ transplants was found in the WT publications not the bible. I cannot say how many lives were cut shorter than they should have been as a result.
*2) What month in 1995? I believe it changed toward the end of the year (October I think) and then again in 2008. Curiously enough the definition in 08 mirrored a teaching from 1927. That means that the new light on this subject after 1927 and before 2008 resulted in wrong teachings that lasted for decades.
*3) I find it interesting that yet another definition went full circle to end back at the original doctrine. Again, this means that new light was the cause for a period of wrong teaching if the current teaching is correct.
*4) Blood fractions are not available from any other source other than blood. Isn't that correct? How then is accepting parts of blood the same thing as abstaining from blood?
*5) I believe Bulgaria would not classify JWs beliefs as a religion until they announced that there would be no sanctions against Witnesses in that country who received a transfusion. Honestly, it makes me question the courage of the WT's convictions if it makes concessions that it believes displease God.
For a good number of years before October of 1995, the WT taught that the generation was anyone that was alive to see the events of 1914. In fact, they said the Creator promised it. Well, that was wrong according to the new light. The 95 teaching lasted until 2008 when new light returned to an old obsolete teaching from 1927. So they said the Creator promised a thing that turned out to be wrong. Do you think the Creator really promised that since it turned out to be wrong by their own admission?
I'm actually not willing to concede that the science mentioned earlier supports the JW belief in a ban on blood transfusions. I simply don't want to be drawn off on a tangent. And since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the JW's beliefs, it seems pointless to discuss it. It's too bad Sabianfan left the discussion. I had more to tell him. The argument for new light has holes in its logic big enough to drive a Mack truck through.
I didn't leave the discussion, just allow me to skip a day on YT now and then.
"I had more to tell him."
Off course you have, but the arguments I gave you work well for me as a witness, and I understand that it could have holes in it for "outsiders". Sometimes new light even leads to a sifting work amongst witnesses (e.g. after Russells death).
Tell me Catch, does your Body of Christ sometimes receive new light ?
HaHa, of course Sabianfan. Take as much time as you need. The arguments you made work well for a witness but not for an outsider you say? In that case, help me to see it the way you do. Help me to understand how you can acknowledge that new light can be flat wrong and still be coming from God. I still have lots of questions.
If a man tells me something is from God and later that thing is proven false then I assume he is either mistaken or lying. Either way his 'new light' would be suspect.
I'm still having trouble reconciling the idea that new light comes from God with the examples of new light being proven wrong. You said earlier that, although you don't believe it would ever happen, if the governing body had new light making blood transfusions OK, you would stay loyal. My question is why? They have been wrong before so they could be wrong again. Why abandon a belief that you believe strongly enough to die for just because other men say so?
I believe they're part of God's universal organisation. First Jehovah, then Jesus, then the loyal angels, then the Governing Body (as representatives of the faithful slave), or modern day John class, then the Christian congregation. Rev. 1:1: A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.
> "They have been wrong before so they could be wrong again."
Maybe you should not think in terms of "wrong". Let me quote a part of the WT 8/15-1997 page 15 par. 14:
"In Bible times a watchman would sound a warning even when the potential threat was too far in the distance to be clearly identified. (2 Kings 9:17, 18) False alarms surely occurred back then. But a good watchman would not hold back out of fear of embarrassment.
"If your house was on fire, how would you feel if the firemen failed to appear because they figured it might be a false alarm? No, we expect such men to respond quickly to any sign of danger! In a similar manner, the watchman class has spoken out as circumstances seemed to warrant doing so."
I will send you the whole article by mail. I hope it will be helpful, thanks for your interest in the new light concept !
Please resend that article. I am interested to read it. When I say wrong I mean the following definition:
1. Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
If new light is the truth and it contradicts previous new light then by definition the previous new light was wrong. If the previous new light was wrong then it stands to reason that the current new light could be potentially wrong too. It bugs me. Do you not see my point?
I am singularly unconvinced by your arguments. You took exception at me using the word "wrong" to describe past false teachings brought upon by new light which later had to be corrected by more new light. Therefore, I provided you with the definition so that we could dispense with semantics. I simply want to know how you can accept the new light from the governing body as the inerrant, unchanging word of God when that same new light in often proven wrong by later new light?
I also would like to know how new light is imparted to the governing body. Do the angels show up at the governing body members' house and tell them or does it come in a vision or something?
Catch22here wrote: "Where does new light fit into that?"
I also told you that before. When Jesus came, he referred to scripture and spoke of his own death & ressurection on several occasions, but STILL they didn't fully understand what was happening & they weren't able to comprehend the new light YET.
You have received the WT article I send you, did you read it already? You'll find out that new light doesn't always make the old light wrong & sometimes appeals to our spiritual flexibility.
Sabianfan wrote: "... but STILL they didn't fully understand what was happening & they weren't able to comprehend the new light YET."
What does that have to do with example after example of new light being proven wrong? It's not just a case of not understanding the governing body's new light. It is understood just fine. It is understood to have been proven false. If a man speaks a thing that he claims is from God and it is later proven false, then it was never from God in the first place.
Sabianfan wrote: "You'll find out that new light doesn't always make old light wrong and sometimes appeals to our spiritual flexibility."
The fact that new light isn't always wrong in no way proves that it is not often wrong. The history of previous new light demonstrates that it has been often unreliable. The governing body says new light is from God. And yet that same new light is often proven false by later new light.
You said earlier that you talk to God and He talks to you. Do you consider this to be an unreliable form of communication that you have with Him? If not, why would you trust what nine men from New York say over what God is telling you? It is clear, to me at least, that new light is at best unreliable.
I'm sorry that my answers keep on bothering you, but the brothers from Brooklyn really care about us, they want all JW's to live peacefully and preach the same Kingdom message in unity.
New light simply replaces old light and is used and tought in all Watchtowers used by all 7 million witnesses worldwide. Sometimes it has to do with the organisation itself, sometimes prophecies are better understood.
Do you believe/reckon the concept of new light within' the Bible ?
HaHa Sabianfan, I'm not bothered. I just haven't heard anything yet that helps me make sense of your belief. I would like to understand. How do you resolve the fact that new light often directly contradicts previous new light? If both were from God and God's word is unchanging then how is this possible? If it is because the GB makes mistakes, then why must you trust it to the extent that you seem to do... literally laying your life down on their say so alone? I believe you can learn new truths
1/2 Glad you're back Catch. I can't continue with dadof2lilqueens because I think he is on his way to Vegas now! You wrote: "How do you resolve the fact that new light often directly contradicts previous new light?"
Wel, it doesn't really contradict the previous light. God & his word are indeed unchanging so new light can never change that word. New light can only be seen as an aid to better bible understanding! C.T. Russell couldn't understand Ezekiel and Revelation as much as we do now...
2/2 Russell died in 1916, and we live far more further in the "last days" that started in 1914. E.g. the "mistake" about the generation of 1914 didn't change the fact that we await Armageddon and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. The brothers at Brooklyn never claimed they are directly inspired like the biblewriters were in the 1st century. Besides Scripture itself, there simply is no perfect channel possible in this imperfect humanity but I really think the GB does a great job & I love them.
Sabianfan wrote: "Wel, it doesn't really contradict the previous light."
Consider the following:
The generation is the anointed class. The generation is not the anointed class but is anyone who was alive to see 1914. The generation is not the ones who were alive to see 1914 but instead are the wicked ones alive today. The generation is not the wicked ones alive today but instead is the anointed class. You don't see how each statement is contradicted by the next?
The generation of 1914 made the 1000 years of peace seem more imminent though. Anyway, that is not the point I'm making. You say new light doesn't contradict itself and I say it does. Organ transplants are not allowed - organ transplants are allowed... is a contradiction. Blood fractions are not allowed - blood fractions are allowed... is a contradiction. God forbids blood transfusions - God permits blood transfusions if you live in Bulgaria... is a contradiction.
Sabianfan wrote: "The brothers at Brooklyn never claimed they are directly inspired like the biblewriters were in the 1st century."
They claim to be a "spirit directed organization". And they claim God says things that he didn't say. You you know God didn't say it because it was wrong. Wrong by your own admission and by that of the WT.
Part 1: To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all his goods, or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovahs anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies.
the "problem" is that interpretations can be wrong. Those interpretations that center on basic Biblical doctrines will not change (don't expect new light about the necessity of preaching, a restored paradise on earth etc).
Many interpretations are an attempt to understand prophecies. As the world changes, interpretations can change until the moment comes that prophecies are being fulfilled.
The Bible itself shows such examples, so why should I expect the GB to be perfect?
our "spirit directed organisation" has helped me to discern a way that is much smaller than the way I walked as an agnostic Catholic , even smaller than most "mainstream" Christian denominations. The more people are telling me JW's are wrong or I should not listen to the brothers of the GB or that God's new world will not come, or that man has an immortal soul, or that evil men will burn in hell, the more they are proof to me JW's have the truth. God send his witnesses to find me!
Sabianfan wrote: "our "spirit directed organisation" has helped me to discern a way that is much smaller than the way I walked as an agnostic Catholic..."
I don't disbelieve you.
Sabianfan wrote: "The more people are telling me JW's are wrong or I should not listen to the brothers of the GB ..."
I'm only asking you how you can believe them when they have been proven wrong so many times in the past. They have claimed God said things that were proven wrong.
Sabianfan wrote: "the "problem" is that interpretations can be wrong."
That's very very true. The thing is that the governing body doesn't say new light is just their interpretation do they? They say that it is the word of God and it isn't. And you know it isn't because it is often later proved wrong.
I'm using the following definition for contradiction: a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
It is indefensible to say that the reversal in the position on organ transplants are ok because organ transplants are not found in the bible. People staked their lives on these teachings Sabianfan. They believed organ transplants were tantamount to cannibalism because that is what the watchtower told them.
strickly spoken, from a man's point of view, you're right. But in the early years, the public opinion on organ transplants probably was different than now. Morals can change in 20 or 30 years. Each day people face ethical decisions about health. The fact that organ transplants are allowed doesn't mean there are no risks anymore. In 6-8 1972 Awake! wrote: "Science Digest reveals that the cancer rate for transplant patients was more than 100 times higher than the national average."
I would also like to use a comparison from the Bible and use the same model you used on the GB.
Since Gods original standard for mankind was for the husband and wife to become one flesh, polygamy was not intended, and it's prohibited in the Christian congregation (1Ti 3:2, 12; Tit 1:5, 6). Nevertheless, both divorce & polygamy were tolerated until the time of Jesus & the Chr. congregation.
I'm not sure I have a hard view of the GB exactly. I simply don't trust them when they claim they are receiving directives from God because those directives have been proven wrong time after time. To answer your other question, they rely on the Holy Spirit. It is He who touches their soul. It is He who convinces them of sin and of righteousness and of judgment... not 9 men from New York. By the way, your earlier answer about how new light is imparted to JWs was not entirely complete.
well that is your skewed opinion.
I know what the Bible says not from anyone else.
And if a doctor told me not to eat or drink something I guess it would be OK to transfuse it ,huh?
Yes, have talked too some Dr's and they do say it is basicly the same.
And a reasonable mind would see it IS the same.
But I see you are not reasonable. Have your final (skewed) say
pcbarter 7 months ago
@pcbarter I offer biblical evidence in the other video. I understand why you don't want to deal with it. However what you are saying is downright silly. Doctors would warn you to stay away from dangerous levels of radiation but will actually give them to you in a controlled manner in order to save you.
21crosscheck21 7 months ago
@21crosscheck21 oh I like this comment! can't wait to talk to my neighbour (a JW for 40yrs), she's a really nice lady it's funny coz' I know when she's talking to me she's feeling sorry for me and at the same time I'm feeling sorry for her..lol.
ozkaz28 6 months ago
so if you are in an emergency situation it would be ok to be a canaibal too? Not equating blood to canibal but as an illustration. Blood transfusions were n0ot around when the Bible was written but the intake or eating (same basic thing as transfusion) is. 3 pifitol times in Bible history. Noah,Mosaic law and Christians all were prohibited from taking in blood. Illegal drugs were not around but the principle applies to abstain from such things also.
So quite pointedly Blood is forbidden by God.
pcbarter 7 months ago
@pcbarter Yeah,,, that's what the Watchtower used t teach about organ transplants and blood parts. Now are both very acceptable after they flip flopped and many died for their error. Transfusing is not the same thing as eating. Go ask any MD. What will you do when they flip flop on this as well?
21crosscheck21 7 months ago
@21crosscheck21 Go see my video called "Blood and Mercy" and you will see Jews eating blood in a desperate situation and God not holding it against them proving that even if eating and transfusing were the same (which they are not) you are still wrong according to the scriptures to allow someone to die in an emergency situation.
When an MD claims to be Gods only channel of communication I will worry about their flip flops but as of yet I know no MD who has ever flipped flopped on that.
21crosscheck21 7 months ago
Oh Please ,! how rediculious . I had cancer and easily got other treatments and much better Doctors and most modern treaments. Many hospitals are seeing the benefits of no blood surgery. Google cell saver, or cell salvage.
This guy is wacky and bends the truth and facts. And if you are going to get a surgery that may much blood loss , look into the cell salvage, hemoDilution, and many other treatments a GOOD doctor and hospital can provide. And a better recovery time.
pcbarter 7 months ago
@pcbarter Having a planned operation is very different then a emergency trauma situation. And on a worldwide scale very few have access to bloodless surgery some barely have access to antibiotics. . Either way though the bible DOES NOT ban blood transfusions.
21crosscheck21 7 months ago
@pcbarter nonsense
SixStringDeity 2 months ago
google this , since I can't post the website with the facts
Are Deaths by Blood Transfusion Common?
pcbarter 1 year ago
@pcbarter
NOT having the life and dead necessary operation, because of the circus of having to deny a bloodtransfussion, is VERY common among the Jehovahs Witnesses. JW's may not die often at the table, but most certainly die often in their bed when the untreated cancer eats them up inside. I have been at too many funerals on that behalf to continue to fool myself about "the best treatment".
Billos76 7 months ago
this organization is run and built on satan lies, just like the muslims religion is, a angel of light, none other than satan him self, this people are in for a fear full awaking at the judgment day, depart from me for i never knew you the lord will say, my only hope is that these people will start thinking for them selves and start leting the bible be there final authority rather than a organization built on satans lies, there is hope for them so keep spreading the true gospel
greatestgiftis 1 year ago
It hurts to know that parents allow their interpretations of Scriptures to immobilize their responsibilities of protecting their children. God have mercy on their souls.
TheRealTruth1914 1 year ago
Not of Jehovah and Jesus, but, the Watchtower Society. They care nothing of human lives, only their Billion dollar publishing company.
BikersFromIreland 2 years ago
I am ashamed even to call myself a Jehovah's Witness.
BikersFromIreland 2 years ago
The take pre-dated pictures of children and put them on the cover of Awake magazine when they are healthy and alive and make it look like they are happy to die by giving their lives by refusing blood. Sick perversion individuals of the Watchtower Society.
BikersFromIreland 2 years ago 2
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BikersFromIreland 2 years ago
This is what happens when you put imperfect men in the positions of demigody and follow them like they are Gods. So be it unto you.
BikersFromIreland 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
Have you had a chance to ask for clarification about the role of angels in delivering 'new light' messages to the governing body? Since 'new light' can result in JWs completely reversing any given teaching, one would think it would be important to understand as much as possible about new light and how it is imparted to men on earth.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Comment removed
berrio55 2 years ago
The GB need new batteries for new light. Can not trust them.
berrio55 2 years ago
Sabian and Catch ...you guys still on that delivery service thing? Cmon...the bottom line is that the Angels do not talk to humans to give messages . The Governing body just thinks about what to come up , they sit down on wednesdays and the say a prayer and they vote on what to publish. Thats how New Light is brought to the Members of the Loving Christian congregations of the Jehovah's Witnesses. ( I may be wrong on the weekly day of voting ..lol) ..YEAHHHHHHH
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "Sabian and Catch ...you guys still on that delivery service thing?"
Yes, I still want to know what they believe. I never said I believe it.
Catch22here 2 years ago
"OH man ...Open communication and free thinking is for everyone...yeahhhhhh"
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Welcome back freethinker, how was Vegas ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago 2
OH I always have a great time over there. I love staying at the Southpoint Resort. The Buffett is the best or the price. Prime Ribb...yeahhh
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Part 2:
No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Courts official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as Head of Jehovahs faithful and wise servant class. He MERELY uses the servant class to publish the interpretation AFTER the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
Watchtower, 7/1/43, p.203
thwaves 2 years ago
Part 3: The truth is that the GB has made the case in it's publications that is is a "Channel" of the information that Jehovah gives to it through Angelic messengers. So who is responsible when the Society has given false prophecies?
The "brothers" in Brooklyn or Jehovah?
thwaves 2 years ago
Sorry, I forgot the W.T. quote to backup the last post:
No man can properly interpret prophecy, and the Lord sends his angels to transmit CORRECT information to his people, and when these truths come to his people and the facts fit the prophecy, then they should take it as from the Lord and receive it with rejoicing.
Watchtower, 2/15/36, p. 52
thwaves 2 years ago
haha...Sabian...your getting it all wrong ..that Yes answer was from the first question you asked me in regards if I am enlighten people with my Watchtower rhetoric. go back and read the post . I already answered the Question about God almighty...go back and read
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Dad, don't play games with me now, my clear question was (quoting from my post 1 hour ago):
"I still would like to know if the "yes" you answered yesterday, reffered to my question to you about Jesus being the Almighty God."
and now you're telling me I'm getting it all wrong? Are you just covering up yourself ?
You also wrote: "I already answered the Question about God almighty...go back and read".
I can't find it, it's not directly underneath that post so...answer again please!
Sabianfan 2 years ago
hey Sabian ..I'm going to be in Vegas the next few days...I will get you the scans. If you want. you can PM me your email address and I can send them to you quicker.. its up to you
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
No problem Sabian , I have more ...but I will just give you the ones closer to 1950. Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 pg 339 " Jehovah commands all to Worship Jesus" .........Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 pg. 313 " To worship Jehovah's chief agent ..Jesus Christ" ....If you dont have access to these pubications...I can send you my scanned publications that go WAAAAAAAAY!!! back. I have a passion for knowing the Origins and history of the watchtower....really amazing stuff
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens,
please mail me the 2 examples (only the specific pages from WT 1939 & 1945). Thanks already for that !
By the way, I still would like to know if the "yes" you answered yesterday, reffered to my question to you about Jesus being the Almighty God. Your first direct was "I'm confused" and then you mentioned those old Watchtowers up 'til 1947.
So are you just confused about it, or is it: Yes, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
I listened to J.R Brown audio interview with the reporter that she recorded regarding the Bethel Elder that got Arrested for trying to lure boys for sex and it disgusted me how Brother Brown had lied sooooo much on that interview . LIAR!!!! LIAR, LIAR!!!!
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Yeah the two witness rule is a recipe for disaster for this kind of thing.
Catch22here 2 years ago
POWERFUL!
Larsinger58 2 years ago
all my comments I make are based on research and truths. Just like you get a kick out of trying to debate Ex JW's and so called Apostates , I get a kick out of shedding the truth of what goes on in the inside of the organization. My best friend is an elder and we collaborate facts , he really is a big help to me . Yeahhhhhhhh
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: >"Just like you get a kick out of trying to debate Ex JW's and so called Apostates"
Are you joking? How do you know my kicks?
You also wrote: >"I get a kick out of shedding the truth of what goes on in the inside of the organization."
You really are a uniting power in Jehovah's organisation brother! Do you really make people happier when you share your enlightened viewpoint with them?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Yes
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
This was my answer to your question . Yes
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
@ dadof2lilqueens,
Ouch, your answer is yes.............(silence)..................
That explains the many critical JW watchers amongst your YT friends. What can I say ? Though I'm shocked, I respect your honesty, but why do you stick to old light from pre-1947 ? You can't preach that from door to door ! Do you also stick to old light that allowes Christmas and the use of the cross ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
You made a good point why I stick to old light pre 1947. Now lets say if Jesus was here on Earth pre 1947 dates. Would Jesus say that what the Watchtower is teaching acceptable. I think that is the most important question. I'm trying to put my feet in Jesus sandals here. No pun intended
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "Now lets say if Jesus was here on Earth pre 1947 dates. Would Jesus say that what the Watchtower is teaching acceptable. I think that is the most important question. I'm trying to put my feet in Jesus sandals here."
You know what Jesus did when he walked the earth in the 1st century. John 12:50: Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them].
Jesus wouldn't reveal new light unless the Father would permit him to (Acts 1:6 !)
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Catch....its fruitless to try and reason with SAbiansymbols. Its obvious that his only defense is the Watchtower pubs and not his own understanding. He needs to dig deep to come up with his answers via Watchtower. If they Watchtower told him the sky is Green ...he will say its green . Let it go Catch. he will eventually delete his acct and go by another name like most JW's on youtube.
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
I understand where you are coming from dadof2lilqueens but I still have more I want to ask about this subject. This video raised some very good questions which deserve some answers. So far, I haven't heard anything from the JWs here that I can accept.
Catch22here 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens,
you said >"its fruitless to try and reason with SAbiansymbols".
Thank you for your support brother, you really show what's in your heart (Ephesians 4:1-5) !
>"Its obvious that his only defense is the Watchtower pubs and not his own understanding."
Hmm, aren't we supposed to receive and study the same spiritual food ? When did you develop this WT aversion ?
>"If they Watchtower told him the sky is Green ...he will say its green ."
Why did you become a JW ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
oh thats an easy answer to a question . "Because I believed the doctrines that were I was taught" and its sad that the Governing Body does not teach the anymore and I had to do my own research as to why this Org does what it does and its not New LIght , its all about changing doctrines to cover their ass's. I am here to let all JW's and Ex Jw's know the real truth. I'm sure you understand it too but wont admitt it . Have a nice day
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Wow, yeah good comment dadof2lilqueens. That's another thing that really bugs me... theocratic warfare. I didn't want to bring it up because I'm trying to use this video as a focal point. But yeah, theocratic warfare does seem like a convenient way for justifying 'C.Y.A' (cover your ...).
Catch22here 2 years ago
I have come to terms that Theocratic Warfare is the "only" way to make a point when it comes to the Organization. Since the Org uses it for their beneifit...I find exquisite delight reversing it on them. That J.R Brown who is the spokesman for the Watchtower is the biggest joke since the Devil started talking. He is really good at what he does ..Covering up and lying.
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
Nah dadof2lilqueens, I haven't heard you say anything that was untrue. I'd have to go back and reread all your comments to be sure but I'm usually pretty good at recognizing BS when I hear it. I probably just misunderstood you just now.
Catch22here 2 years ago
@ dadof2lilqueens,
">I am here to let all JW's and Ex Jw's know the real truth."
Real truth ? It seems you're on a mission from God. When are you going to start your own biblestudy group ?
>"I'm sure you understand it too but wont admitt it ."
I don't understand why you identify yourself as a JW while you preach doubt about your organisation.
Let me test you now!
Question: DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD?
If no: Who teaches it, the Bible, the WT or both?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Well...I'm confused...bcuz the Watchtower worshipped Jesus til 1947. Nathan Knorr changed it to Jehovah only. This is where we teach all those that we try to convert that it was "Old Light" and now the Governing body have " New Light" . so this is what I teach
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: >"I'm confused...bcuz the Watchtower worshipped Jesus til 1947"
? In 1931, the organisation embraced the distinctive name Jehovahs Witnesses. Did they teach Jesus was the Almighty God or that Jehovah is Jesus in those next 16 years until 1947? In The Watchtower of Jan. 1, 1926, the principal article was called Who Will Honor Jehovah? & in 1929 it was also pointed out that the outstanding issue facing all intelligent creation involves the honoring of Jehovahs name.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabathiafan.....so you agree the Watchtower instructed its members to Worship Jesus ? Just looking for a Yes or No answer . No need to cut and paste and elaborate.
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "so you agree the Watchtower instructed its members to Worship Jesus ? Just looking for a Yes or No answer . No need to cut and paste and elaborate."
LOL, you forgot the 3d option: I don't know. My WT Library goes back to 1950 and my oldest book is Rutherfords "Children" from 1942. You can send me an older article if you wish, I'm still open minded.
If you do I will read it tomorrow. I just got home from our meeting, bedtime now. See you tomorrow guys !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
and Sabathiafan...I can give you the Watchtower articles by date if you still dont believe it , so you can look up yourself. I speak based on Truth and Facts. Can you dig it C.C?
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
dadof2lilqueens wrote: "I can give you the Watchtower articles by date if you still dont believe it , so you can look up yourself. I speak based on Truth and Facts. Can you dig it C.C?"
I can dig it, but what's your point here? Are you using the organisation's history to teach everyone "true light" that we should not listen to the Governing Body and accept blood transfusions?
When you became a JW, I assume that you sincerely reckognised the Governing Body as Jehovah's earthly channeI?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
yes
dadof2lilqueens 2 years ago
crosscheck~ well done again my brother!
questions 4 jw's:
If this matter of blood transfusions is a life or death matter, then:
1) Y doesn't God mention this prohibition in the 10 commandments
2) Y didn't Jesus ever mention this as the way 2 salvation.
this jw doctrine is false & is based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures.
the BIBLE says r NOT saved by the LAW.
Gal. 3:11-Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
laffy4christ 2 years ago
Matt 22:36-37
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Rom 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
MY POINT IS AS PAUL'S WAS: REFUSING BLOOD WILL NOT SAVE U
laffy4christ 2 years ago
ONLY JESUS SAVES!
laffy4christ 2 years ago
Hi laffy4christ,
you said "Y doesn't God mention this prohibition in the 10 commandments".
I have a question.
Do you think it's allowed to smoke, just because it is not in the 10 commandments ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "you have the right to question anything you want"
Thank you. What about JWs? Are they taught to question the teachings of the watchtower? Or would that be a sign of dangerous independent thinking?
Catch22here 2 years ago
This video is so FULL of INACCURACIES it is hard to even begin to comment. And you have really stooped to a new low involving kids ...probably your own in such hate speech against the JW.
The bible states to ABSTAIN from blood.....We listen to God not man. The JW have been VINDICATED with their stance on blood and the policy will not change I assure you.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
""""And you have really stooped to a new low involving kids""""
No children were harmed in the making of this video.... how many have been harmed or killed by the blood policy?
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
How many Born Again Christian children died before the cause of HIV was known by blood transfusions....ever give that a thought?
What part of abstain don't you understand 21? You are always rationalizing God's laws.....one day you will have to rationalize your salvation.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake, I rationalize nothing but you do. Do you believe that a heart transplant is cannibalism? Of course you don't and praise God your leaders recognized their ignorance and changed their stance on that.
But it is that very same rationalization that leads to death in the blood issue.
Jake how will you feel if this policy you defend changes.... new light is possible right? or are they infallible on this issue?
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
You rationalize everything in scripture 21 to fit your daily need.
The bible is CLEAR as DAY....Abstsain from Blood.
Medical doctors in the past have given blood to their patients to cure Epilepsy.....it was the new high tech method of its day.....now we know it is false...Then Doctors throughout Europe infused animal blood into their patients...why?...to save their lives....Hmmm...it was the high tech method of the day...it also proved FALSE....Don't buy everything scientist tell you 21
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake I see you are unable to respond to what I asked you in the comment... I think we all know why.
The sad thing about the rest of what you are saying is that you seem to infer that NO ONE is helped by blood transfusions. That is to absurd to even comment on.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
21...as a health care professional I can tell you that blood transfusions are not what they are cracked up to be. Thanks to the JW scientist have found many ways around blood transfusions...one day they will be obsolete....not the other way around in that the JW will change their belief. Hospitals around the world are going bloodless and patients...many of whom are Born Again are requesting surgery without blood.....This is just another angle for you to spew your JW hatred.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
"""not the other way around in that the JW will change their belief""""
Jws have already changed their belief on blood Jake.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
21 I think you should apply to be on the governing board.......No we have not changed our mind about the sanctity of blood. We stand justified and proud that we have listened to God and not man.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
So blood fragments are not allowed?
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
You know what is and what is not allowed 21...if not ...visit the official site.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
I do know what is allowed.... however you act as though they haven't changed their position...... I guess only "part" of the the blood is sacred...
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
You listen to the governing body. Are they not men?
Catch22here 2 years ago
And you listen to your church....who are you fooling?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
The truth is that you believe everything the governing body tells you to believe even if it directly contradicts your long term deeply held prior beliefs. The governing body is comprised of men. You said you don't listen to men but of course you do. You and others say that these directives actually come from God but how can that be when new light directly contradicts previous new light? If biblical truth is unchanging then logically either new light is wrong or the previous new light was wrong.
Catch22here 2 years ago
hmmmm...wasn't it the Protestants that used to burn witches...New Light?
How about your church 22...did they used to celebrate Halloween?....Not any more.....New Light?.....How about Easter....have you changed that to "Resurrection Sunday"? New Light?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake lets not be silly here with the witch burning comments.... they may have called themselves Christian but were they? Anyone can call themselves a "christian."
Let me ask you..... the jws in the news for molesting kids...... are they really dedicated jws? The lady who cut the head off her baby a month or so was a jw... or so she claimed.
Sad to see you go down that road
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
ha ha ha ha ....Need I even search the news for Born Again Loonies out there?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Way to miss the point Jake :')
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
Your entire ministry 21 is to shed bad light on God fearing Christians....Your command, by the One you claim to be your leader, is to Preach the Good News of God's coming Kingdom. Not to be hostile towards JW.
It is YOU that misses the point.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake blow the dust off your bible and read it... we are to contend and defend the faith (Jude 3)
Repent of your organizational idolatry and works based salvation..... receive the pure milk of the gospel. We are saved by Grace through faith
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
Jake you keep following the new light of men... as for us, we will continue to follow the light of Christ.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
21....you do not follow Christ....you are your own god.......If you love Jesus...you obey him....you do not obey your exemplar.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake, coming from a guy who admits that he follows and serves men... please
Jake I agree with Catch22. It is hard for me to believe that you have any deeply held convictions at all. If the GB says change you will change.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
The JW do not believe in Salvation by works 21...You know that but until the day you die you will try to use that against us. Now let me remind you what your leader and exemplar told you to do....Seek FIRST the Kingdom and GOD"S RIGHTEOUSNESS and all else will be given to you.
And here is another for you 21....James 2:
14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 I
JAKEV25 2 years ago
So Jake tell me.... how is a man saved?
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
21 how many times must we review this.You really need to concentrate your efforts on mormons or muslems.
There is Salvation ONLY ONLY thru the shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is the ONLY avenue that Jehovah has provided for the salvation of mankind.
John 14
6 Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
Perhaps you should preach to your own Born Again Brothers ex Billy Graham who thinks there are other ways?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Jake,
There are JWs knocking on doors right now who do not truly know if they will be saved or not. The do not know if they have done enough in field service to deserve it. That's the point. If they believed in faith alone then they would not have such doubt now would they? But back to the video... if new light comes telling you transfusions are ok, will you reject new light or reject your currently deeply held belief on the transfusion ban?
Catch22here 2 years ago
22...JW don't knock on doors to get saved. Whoever....whatever idiot told you this is a liar. We knock on doors because Jesus commanded us to make disciples of all the nations.....and that's exactly how the apostle Paul preached....door to door. And the transfusion issue will not be turned over by the JW...because we have been vindicated by our stance...Soon blood transfusions will be l'histoire.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Hi Jake,
>"Soon blood transfusions will be l'histoire"
That is so true brother. I mentioned it before at this topic but there is a certain resistence amongst our Christian friends around here, I think mainly because we're Jehovah's witnesses.
Bloodless surgery is one of the fastest growing fields in medicine. JW's were pioneers in this field but it actually might have implications for everybody out there (as health specialist dr. Sean Kenniff said on CBS health news)
Praise Yah !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Again, I don't understand what bloodless surgery has to do with your belief. Does medical science affect your belief in some way? I mean you believe what you do because you believe it is so written in the bible right? I'm only interested in why you believe what you do.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch,
>"I don't understand what bloodless surgery has to do with your belief. Does medical science affect your belief in some way?"
No, but e.g. in Moses days, sewage disposal by burying excreta was a sanitation requirement far in advance of the times. (De 23:12-14). It protected the people against the spread of germs (discovered by scientists only in recent centuries).
To me, the succes of bloodless surgery is just proof that JW's were not wrong about refusing bloodtransfusions.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
I do not believe God gets things wrong and would need to change his mind later and correct himself by replacing previous new light with current new light. New light has been wrong before so I remain highly skeptical.
So bloodless surgery has nothing whatsoever to do with your belief it just helps you to feel better about it? Again, I'm only asking you why you believe what you believe at this point not how you rationalize it so you can live with yourself.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Well tell us catch22....did you used to celebrate halloween?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
Catch22here says: "So bloodless surgery has nothing whatsoever to do with your belief it just helps you to feel better about it? Again, I'm only asking you why you believe what you believe at this point not how you rationalize it so you can live with yourself"
I'm not rationalizing, I believe with or without medical support. Surprisingly enough you seem to be irritated by interesting medical facts that support our viewpoint.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "Surprisingly enough you seem to be irritated by interesting medical facts that support our viewpoint."
Well, in that case you can disabuse yourself of any such notion. I just don't understand why you bring it up when I'm asking about why you believe what you do. I didn't ask how you feel about it. Once again, if new light comes tomorrow that says transfusions are a matter of choice will you accept that despite the fact that you would die for your belief in the blood ban today?
Catch22here 2 years ago
I'm kind of looking for...
yes and here is why...
or
no and here is why...
Catch22here 2 years ago
1/2 Catch, please. My belief and my feelings cant be split. I have worked as a nursing assistent in a hospital for 4 years. This topic simply justifies me to add some medical information, right?
1st, I think it's good to show the other side of the story that crosscheck is hiding in this "emotional" video. Like Jake said earlier, its full of inaccuracies !
2nd, I already stated earlier that it would be highly improbable that there will be new light that allows bloodtransfusions.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
2/2 continue...
Our viewpoint was always based on Acts 15:28,29. Everybody who reads the Bible can see that God gave his prohibition on blood BEFORE the Law (Gen.9:4), BY the Law (Lev. and AFTER the Law, (Acts 15:28,29). Our viewpoint has always been criticised, but now finally people can see the outcome. So why change it in a time that more and more non-JW's see the benefits and ask for bloodfree surgery ? That wouldn't make any sense, so I guess this is your No and Here is why !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
So you would leave the organization if they came out with new light saying blood transfusions are a matter of personal choice? That's about what saying 'no and here is why' would amount to you know. It would be indicative of dangerous independent thinking and would not be accepted by the society.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch, why would I leave an organisation that learned me everything that Satan's system of things didn't want me to know ?
It were JW's who knocked at my door, not mainstream Christians, not Jews, not muslims, not even Mormons ! As a Catholic I could morally do everything I wanted, I was independent, but also unaware of the biblical truth about Jehovah and his Kingdom.
Remember the devil told Adam and Eve to become independent ? As you said...everything is a matter of personal choice...
Sabianfan 2 years ago
You would be forced out Sabianfan. If you would refuse to accept the new light making it ok to accept a transfusion then you would either have to conform or you would very likely be disfellowshipped.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Hi Catch,
you said "You would be forced out Sabianfan".
That's not true. When the Governing Body would allow blood transfusions, it would simply be "a matter of personal choice" (your own words quoted here Catch).
By the way Catch,
why didn't you answer Jake's question about Halloween ?
And why didn't you answer my question about the purpose of the Governing Body in the 1st century ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
When I asked would you accept the new light I also meant everything that goes with it... teaching it to others for example. I realize that if your given a choice you might choose no. That wasn't exactly what I was asking. For example, would you be willing to challenge new light if it directly contradicts your deeply held belief that the bible bans transfusions? As for your question about the GB there is a pretty good vid by Shazoolo (I think) about that. I'll try to find it for you.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch22 said: "For example, would you be willing to challenge new light if it directly contradicts your deeply held belief that the bible bans transfusions?"
Shortly before a JW gets baptised, he must answer 2 questions.
The 2nd question is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovahs Witnesses in association with Gods spirit-directed organization?
I answered the question with a loud yes so I'll stay loyal, but such new light will NOT come!
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "I answered the question with a loud yes so I'll stay loyal, but such new light will NOT come!"
How do you know?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch,
bloodtransfusions have done more harm than good. God is love, when we refuse bloodtransfusions we obey Gods prohibition on blood and we show our faith & trust.
Bloodless surgery is safe, cheaper and many have a faster recovery !
If JW's would take blood transfusions who should be held responsible for medical errors and complications, leading to death ?
James 1:13:...For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
That's why I know !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "bloodtransfusions have done more harm than good."
I believe you are mistaken. Blood transfusions have saved many lives over the years. Therefore, it does not follow that it is an evil thing. There are risks with any medical procedure. If there are errors and complications which amount to negligence on the part of the doctor or hospital then they would be accountable. Once again, how do you know the governing body won't have new light and end the ban on transfusions?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch22 wrote: "Blood transfusions have saved many lives over the years. Therefore, it does not follow that it is an evil thing"
In many cases, "old fashioned" doctors will tell their patients that they probably will die without blood transfusion. The strange thing is that on the other hand, no doctor can assure that someone will absolutely stay alive when he accepts blood transusion. Ask yourself, why?
Did you actually read WT publications about blood or did you visit our official website?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Catch22here wrote: "Once again, how do you know the governing body won't have new light and end the ban on transfusions?"
This seems to be 'that one question' for you. I gave you scriptural clues and some medical reasons, but still you seem to feel uncomfortable with the new light concept. Can't you just accept that it will not change ? If not, I guess you'll be waiting quite a long time (at least 'til the return of the glorified Christ, when the whole world will get their ultimate answer).
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan, I am uncomfortable with the new light concept. New light has changed prior deeply held beliefs of JWs before so it is conceivable to me that new light might one day end the transfusion ban. If you believe the bible prohibits transfusions strongly enough to die for that belief then why would you let 9 men from New York tell you otherwise? If they are truly God's channel of communication here on earth then why does new light often contradict previous new light? Does God make mistakes?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Thanks for your reply Catch
"New light has changed prior deeply held beliefs of JWs before.."
What changes are you referring to?
"If you believe the bible prohibits transfusions strongly enough to die for that belief..."
It has nothing to do with wanting to die. We enjoy life, therefore we want the best medical care & we'll accept transfusions without blood. Death would be the last option.
"Does God make mistakes?"
No, but imperfect men sometimes do. Still God works with them.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
"What changes are you referring to?"
Whether or not organ transplants are allowed, the definition of the generation that would not pass before Armageddon, the teaching on who the 'higher authorities' are, whether or not blood fractions are allowed, whether or not JWs in Bulgaria should be disfellowshipped if they take transfusions with red blood cells, when the current system of things will come to an end (no one knows and yet as you know predictions have been made before). Should I go on?
Catch22here 2 years ago
I believe you when you say you don't want to die Sabianfan. I said you are willing to die for your belief in the ban on blood transfusions not that you are eager to die. It's an important distinction.
"No, but imperfect men sometimes do. Still God works with them. "
I agree. Men make mistakes. The governing body are men who are not infallible by your own admission. So why shouldn't you question them when they have new light... which has proven to need the correction of later new light.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Thanks for the specifications Catch, now let's focus on 2 things.
1st. Only God has absolute truth. Jesus said Gods word is truth (John 17:17). New light doesn't change that word, but only improves our understanding or interpretation of that word.
2nd. We can only descern new light under influence of Gods spirit. Sometimes God allows an incomplete understanding (mainly caused by imperfection of men) until HE reveils new light, according to his divine timetable and always at the proper time.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
1/2 Catch, again, about new light..
The examples you gave didn't change basic bible teachings. In Hebrews 6:1,2 Paul speaks about the primary doctrine of the Christ (repentence about dead works, the resurrection of the dead, everlasting judgement etc.). New light doesn't change those doctrines.
* Organ transplants are not mentioned in the bible.
* The definition of the generation (one of my 1st WT studies in 1995, I wasn't shocked at all !) didn't change God's timetable for Armageddon.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
2/2 @ Catch,
* It's interesting that the new light about the higher authorities came after WW II. The old light was wrong, but nevertheless served the brothers & sisters during heavy persecution because it surely helped them to endure.
* Blood fractions is something different than whole blood. It's made possible by modern medical techniques. WT says it's a personal decision, it's not a doctrine.
* Honestly, I don't know what to think about Bulgaria. Maybe it was only a formal concession ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
*1) Correct. The directive to refuse organ transplants was found in the WT publications not the bible. I cannot say how many lives were cut shorter than they should have been as a result.
*2) What month in 1995? I believe it changed toward the end of the year (October I think) and then again in 2008. Curiously enough the definition in 08 mirrored a teaching from 1927. That means that the new light on this subject after 1927 and before 2008 resulted in wrong teachings that lasted for decades.
Catch22here 2 years ago
*3) I find it interesting that yet another definition went full circle to end back at the original doctrine. Again, this means that new light was the cause for a period of wrong teaching if the current teaching is correct.
*4) Blood fractions are not available from any other source other than blood. Isn't that correct? How then is accepting parts of blood the same thing as abstaining from blood?
Catch22here 2 years ago
*5) I believe Bulgaria would not classify JWs beliefs as a religion until they announced that there would be no sanctions against Witnesses in that country who received a transfusion. Honestly, it makes me question the courage of the WT's convictions if it makes concessions that it believes displease God.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Hi Catch,
you asked "What month in 1995?". It was in the november issue, two study articles called Saved From a "Wicked Generation" and A Time to Keep Awake.
In that issue, Questions from Readers also answered a question about Matthew 24:34.
Bedtime in Europe now...
Sabianfan 2 years ago
For a good number of years before October of 1995, the WT taught that the generation was anyone that was alive to see the events of 1914. In fact, they said the Creator promised it. Well, that was wrong according to the new light. The 95 teaching lasted until 2008 when new light returned to an old obsolete teaching from 1927. So they said the Creator promised a thing that turned out to be wrong. Do you think the Creator really promised that since it turned out to be wrong by their own admission?
Catch22here 2 years ago
What tripe!
Since the "old light was wrong" what says the new light is right? Or will you make the same excuse 10 years from now?
You love science when it's good for you and work against it whenever it isn't. JW's are hypocrites. Shame on you.
ILYIAB 2 years ago
I'm actually not willing to concede that the science mentioned earlier supports the JW belief in a ban on blood transfusions. I simply don't want to be drawn off on a tangent. And since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the JW's beliefs, it seems pointless to discuss it. It's too bad Sabianfan left the discussion. I had more to tell him. The argument for new light has holes in its logic big enough to drive a Mack truck through.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Great comment. I'm having a PM "debate" with Sabianfan, and he's failing so bad we could fit 2 Mack trucks through the holes.
If he bails on the debate (4 PM's round trip) I'll make a vid about it.
Have a great day!
ILYIAB 2 years ago
Hi Catch
"It's too bad Sabianfan left the discussion."
I didn't leave the discussion, just allow me to skip a day on YT now and then.
"I had more to tell him."
Off course you have, but the arguments I gave you work well for me as a witness, and I understand that it could have holes in it for "outsiders". Sometimes new light even leads to a sifting work amongst witnesses (e.g. after Russells death).
Tell me Catch, does your Body of Christ sometimes receive new light ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
HaHa, of course Sabianfan. Take as much time as you need. The arguments you made work well for a witness but not for an outsider you say? In that case, help me to see it the way you do. Help me to understand how you can acknowledge that new light can be flat wrong and still be coming from God. I still have lots of questions.
If a man tells me something is from God and later that thing is proven false then I assume he is either mistaken or lying. Either way his 'new light' would be suspect.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
I'm still having trouble reconciling the idea that new light comes from God with the examples of new light being proven wrong. You said earlier that, although you don't believe it would ever happen, if the governing body had new light making blood transfusions OK, you would stay loyal. My question is why? They have been wrong before so they could be wrong again. Why abandon a belief that you believe strongly enough to die for just because other men say so?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Hi Catch,
>"you would stay loyal. My question is why?"
I believe they're part of God's universal organisation. First Jehovah, then Jesus, then the loyal angels, then the Governing Body (as representatives of the faithful slave), or modern day John class, then the Christian congregation. Rev. 1:1: A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
1/2 @ Catch,
> "They have been wrong before so they could be wrong again."
Maybe you should not think in terms of "wrong". Let me quote a part of the WT 8/15-1997 page 15 par. 14:
"In Bible times a watchman would sound a warning even when the potential threat was too far in the distance to be clearly identified. (2 Kings 9:17, 18) False alarms surely occurred back then. But a good watchman would not hold back out of fear of embarrassment.
cont.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
2/2 @ Catch,
"If your house was on fire, how would you feel if the firemen failed to appear because they figured it might be a false alarm? No, we expect such men to respond quickly to any sign of danger! In a similar manner, the watchman class has spoken out as circumstances seemed to warrant doing so."
I will send you the whole article by mail. I hope it will be helpful, thanks for your interest in the new light concept !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
Please resend that article. I am interested to read it. When I say wrong I mean the following definition:
1. Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
If new light is the truth and it contradicts previous new light then by definition the previous new light was wrong. If the previous new light was wrong then it stands to reason that the current new light could be potentially wrong too. It bugs me. Do you not see my point?
Catch22here 2 years ago
@ Catch22,
">Please resend that article. I am interested to read it."
I already send it to you yesterday, haven't you received it yet ?
>"When I say wrong I mean the following definition: 1. Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous."
I know the definition Catch, but I gave you solid answers on a spiritual level.
Another example: If you were a converted Jew in the 1st century, would the new light on circumcision make the old light "wrong"? What would you do?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
I am singularly unconvinced by your arguments. You took exception at me using the word "wrong" to describe past false teachings brought upon by new light which later had to be corrected by more new light. Therefore, I provided you with the definition so that we could dispense with semantics. I simply want to know how you can accept the new light from the governing body as the inerrant, unchanging word of God when that same new light in often proven wrong by later new light?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
I also would like to know how new light is imparted to the governing body. Do the angels show up at the governing body members' house and tell them or does it come in a vision or something?
Catch22here 2 years ago
By the way Sabianfan, evidently your message which you sent pointing me to the article you quoted did not make it to me. Please resend.
Thank you
Catch22here 2 years ago
Hi Catch,
You ask: >"I also would like to know how new light is imparted to the governing body."
2weeks ago you also asked: >Do the angels show up at the governing body members' house and tell them or does it come in a vision or something?
One of my replies was about Albert Schroeder, a longtime member of the Governing Body, who told exactly how they make decisions. Did you read it ?
I ended that reply by saying: So prayer, Jehovah's spirit & the Bible are the keywords here.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan,
Yep, I read your comment. Do you talk to God through prayer Sabianfan? And if so does He ever talk back to you? If so, how so?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch22here wrote: >"Do you talk to God through prayer Sabianfan? And if so does He ever talk back to you? If so, how so?"
Ok, 3 questions here.
So, 3 answers here...
1. Yes, and through reading His Word.
2. Yes, but not with a literal voice.
3. Through His Word & his Holy Spirit.
Did I pass the test Catch ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
It's not a test. Bear with me. Where does new light fit into that?
Catch22here 2 years ago
Catch22here wrote: "Where does new light fit into that?"
I also told you that before. When Jesus came, he referred to scripture and spoke of his own death & ressurection on several occasions, but STILL they didn't fully understand what was happening & they weren't able to comprehend the new light YET.
You have received the WT article I send you, did you read it already? You'll find out that new light doesn't always make the old light wrong & sometimes appeals to our spiritual flexibility.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "... but STILL they didn't fully understand what was happening & they weren't able to comprehend the new light YET."
What does that have to do with example after example of new light being proven wrong? It's not just a case of not understanding the governing body's new light. It is understood just fine. It is understood to have been proven false. If a man speaks a thing that he claims is from God and it is later proven false, then it was never from God in the first place.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "You'll find out that new light doesn't always make old light wrong and sometimes appeals to our spiritual flexibility."
The fact that new light isn't always wrong in no way proves that it is not often wrong. The history of previous new light demonstrates that it has been often unreliable. The governing body says new light is from God. And yet that same new light is often proven false by later new light.
Catch22here 2 years ago
You said earlier that you talk to God and He talks to you. Do you consider this to be an unreliable form of communication that you have with Him? If not, why would you trust what nine men from New York say over what God is telling you? It is clear, to me at least, that new light is at best unreliable.
Catch22here 2 years ago
@ Catch22here,
I'm sorry that my answers keep on bothering you, but the brothers from Brooklyn really care about us, they want all JW's to live peacefully and preach the same Kingdom message in unity.
New light simply replaces old light and is used and tought in all Watchtowers used by all 7 million witnesses worldwide. Sometimes it has to do with the organisation itself, sometimes prophecies are better understood.
Do you believe/reckon the concept of new light within' the Bible ?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
HaHa Sabianfan, I'm not bothered. I just haven't heard anything yet that helps me make sense of your belief. I would like to understand. How do you resolve the fact that new light often directly contradicts previous new light? If both were from God and God's word is unchanging then how is this possible? If it is because the GB makes mistakes, then why must you trust it to the extent that you seem to do... literally laying your life down on their say so alone? I believe you can learn new truths
Catch22here 2 years ago
1/2 Glad you're back Catch. I can't continue with dadof2lilqueens because I think he is on his way to Vegas now! You wrote: "How do you resolve the fact that new light often directly contradicts previous new light?"
Wel, it doesn't really contradict the previous light. God & his word are indeed unchanging so new light can never change that word. New light can only be seen as an aid to better bible understanding! C.T. Russell couldn't understand Ezekiel and Revelation as much as we do now...
Sabianfan 2 years ago
2/2 Russell died in 1916, and we live far more further in the "last days" that started in 1914. E.g. the "mistake" about the generation of 1914 didn't change the fact that we await Armageddon and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. The brothers at Brooklyn never claimed they are directly inspired like the biblewriters were in the 1st century. Besides Scripture itself, there simply is no perfect channel possible in this imperfect humanity but I really think the GB does a great job & I love them.
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "Wel, it doesn't really contradict the previous light."
Consider the following:
The generation is the anointed class. The generation is not the anointed class but is anyone who was alive to see 1914. The generation is not the ones who were alive to see 1914 but instead are the wicked ones alive today. The generation is not the wicked ones alive today but instead is the anointed class. You don't see how each statement is contradicted by the next?
Catch22here 2 years ago
The generation of 1914 made the 1000 years of peace seem more imminent though. Anyway, that is not the point I'm making. You say new light doesn't contradict itself and I say it does. Organ transplants are not allowed - organ transplants are allowed... is a contradiction. Blood fractions are not allowed - blood fractions are allowed... is a contradiction. God forbids blood transfusions - God permits blood transfusions if you live in Bulgaria... is a contradiction.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "The brothers at Brooklyn never claimed they are directly inspired like the biblewriters were in the 1st century."
They claim to be a "spirit directed organization". And they claim God says things that he didn't say. You you know God didn't say it because it was wrong. Wrong by your own admission and by that of the WT.
Catch22here 2 years ago
The "Society" had this to say of themselves. . .
Part 1: To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all his goods, or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovahs anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies.
thwaves 2 years ago
@ catch,
the "problem" is that interpretations can be wrong. Those interpretations that center on basic Biblical doctrines will not change (don't expect new light about the necessity of preaching, a restored paradise on earth etc).
Many interpretations are an attempt to understand prophecies. As the world changes, interpretations can change until the moment comes that prophecies are being fulfilled.
The Bible itself shows such examples, so why should I expect the GB to be perfect?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
@ Catch,
our "spirit directed organisation" has helped me to discern a way that is much smaller than the way I walked as an agnostic Catholic , even smaller than most "mainstream" Christian denominations. The more people are telling me JW's are wrong or I should not listen to the brothers of the GB or that God's new world will not come, or that man has an immortal soul, or that evil men will burn in hell, the more they are proof to me JW's have the truth. God send his witnesses to find me!
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "our "spirit directed organisation" has helped me to discern a way that is much smaller than the way I walked as an agnostic Catholic..."
I don't disbelieve you.
Sabianfan wrote: "The more people are telling me JW's are wrong or I should not listen to the brothers of the GB ..."
I'm only asking you how you can believe them when they have been proven wrong so many times in the past. They have claimed God said things that were proven wrong.
Catch22here 2 years ago
Sabianfan wrote: "the "problem" is that interpretations can be wrong."
That's very very true. The thing is that the governing body doesn't say new light is just their interpretation do they? They say that it is the word of God and it isn't. And you know it isn't because it is often later proved wrong.
Catch22here 2 years ago 2
I'm using the following definition for contradiction: a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
A is B.
A is not B
... are contradictory statements.
Organ transplants are allowed.
Organ transplants are not allowed.
... are contradictory statements
Catch22here 2 years ago 2
Why are parts of blood allowed but not standard blood transfusions?
Catch22here 2 years ago
It is indefensible to say that the reversal in the position on organ transplants are ok because organ transplants are not found in the bible. People staked their lives on these teachings Sabianfan. They believed organ transplants were tantamount to cannibalism because that is what the watchtower told them.
Catch22here 2 years ago
1/2 @ Catch,
strickly spoken, from a man's point of view, you're right. But in the early years, the public opinion on organ transplants probably was different than now. Morals can change in 20 or 30 years. Each day people face ethical decisions about health. The fact that organ transplants are allowed doesn't mean there are no risks anymore. In 6-8 1972 Awake! wrote: "Science Digest reveals that the cancer rate for transplant patients was more than 100 times higher than the national average."
Sabianfan 2 years ago
2/2 @ Catch,
I would also like to use a comparison from the Bible and use the same model you used on the GB.
Since Gods original standard for mankind was for the husband and wife to become one flesh, polygamy was not intended, and it's prohibited in the Christian congregation (1Ti 3:2, 12; Tit 1:5, 6). Nevertheless, both divorce & polygamy were tolerated until the time of Jesus & the Chr. congregation.
Would you say
A is B
A is not B
...are contradictory statements referred to God?
Sabianfan 2 years ago
No sir, I don't believe God gets things wrong. But the governing body has gotten things wrong. Therefore, new light is not from God.
Catch22here 2 years ago
@ Catch22here,
I hoped my comments would soften your view on the GB. They are imperfect but that's no reason why they shouldn't be Gods channel.
I met 2 of them in Detroit in 1998. They really love us Catch, and they want us to endure to the end.
Now my question to you is: If new light is not from God, how do Christians know there faith is true ?
Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."
Sabianfan 2 years ago
I'm not sure I have a hard view of the GB exactly. I simply don't trust them when they claim they are receiving directives from God because those directives have been proven wrong time after time. To answer your other question, they rely on the Holy Spirit. It is He who touches their soul. It is He who convinces them of sin and of righteousness and of judgment... not 9 men from New York. By the way, your earlier answer about how new light is imparted to JWs was not entirely complete.
Catch22here 2 years ago
@ Catch,
"I'm not sure I have a hard view of the GB exactly."
Not literal, but more in a spiritual way since you not reckon them as a "spirit directed organisation".
"To answer your other question, they rely on the Holy Spirit. It is He who touches their soul."
Ok, so you look up for the Holy Spirit (as a person) for spiritual guidance and discernment?
"your earlier answer about how new light is imparted to JWs was not entirely complete."
Sorry, you mean the 'interpretations' part?
Sabianfan 2 years ago