Don't get me wrong--I'd love to see mass-produced pure electric vehicles. But we simply can't ignore that the charging infrastructure isn't there and without some sort of guarantee (perhaps a gov't. mandate), no company wants to commit to providing that infrastructure without knowing how profitable it will be. As a stop-gap between current cars and future developments, the Volt represents a reasonable transition and will hopefully lead to more development in the area of pure-electric vehicles.
The electric infrastructure is already there, and putting up charging stations is incredibly cost effective. The problem is the oil lobby is far more powerful in congress than the coal lobby. 90% of american business is political in nature. The free market simply doesn't work here.
I am still looking for any of these future EV manufacturers that will be using NiMH batteries so I can buy it! Looks like I'll have to get them put in after market.
Theres a reason why most asians that live in NA drive japanese cars...cause american cars are crap!! And they now it! The bailouts didnt go to Toyota or Honda or Nissan or mazda ect, they went to two american car companies!
My 2006 toyota camry is worth more then a three year old chevy, and it gets better mileage too.
F Detroit, they can only sell gas pigs, so WHEN gas prices go back up, there sales will drop them into hell again! Other then maybe Ford, srew the other two!!
GM's main concern is longevity with the batteries not if they will work.
To GM's defense (and I'm not typically one to defend auto manufacturers), they have constructed the largest and most sophisticated battery testing plant in North America. I hope they use it wisely and produce as many Volts and many variations thereof.
Unfortunately, GM has always hated battery engineers (calling them "wire benders", not real car guys) and GM is a BATTERY IGNORAMUS. No amount of appearance and phony "labs" anwer the question of GM ignorance and LIES.
I know that GM has been poorly run, their managers and CEOs have been stuck in the glory age of the Big Three, Im sure they would rather sell supercharged V-8s than battery packs, etcbut to say that the Global Battery Systems Lab is phony sounds extremist dont you think?
A company restructuring in Chapter 11 has more important things to do with their time and money than create phony labs. Their intent is to remain a world leader in automobile manufacturing.
If GM cared about the facts and the batteries, they would use proven lead-acid or NiMH to get the VOLT on the road!! Later, upgrade to Lithium, if and when it's proven. GM knows nothing about batteries, and is run by nincompoops.
Everything I have heard about Lithium batteries is they are lighter weight, run cool, have longer useful life, won't burn and provide more productivity per charge. Seems absolutely ideal for automotive use.
I use lithium batteries in cordless power tools, PDAs, cellphones and laptops all the time.
Advancing battery technology shouldn't be scorned even if the company is run by nincompoops.
Battery technology is complicated. Lithium works in consumer electronics, as does ZnO; but so far, no Lithium EV has lasted more than 50K miles, and the battery pack in the TESLA costs $50K to replace. Figure it out...
The Tesla has the longest range of any production electric vehicle in history. It is the first of it's kind and is priced accordingly (starting at over $100k). Lithium ion batteries are easier to recycle and don't have memory problems like nickel cadmium. Tesla also claims their battery pack will give you more than 100,000 miles of peak performance driving.
Well, you need to learn the FACTS. Lithium is NOT easy to recyle, having NO scrap value; while almost all Nickel (used in Stainless, monel, etc.) IS recycled! Tesla is only guaranteed for 50K miles and may not last that long. NiCd is NOT NiMH!!
The T-zero is li-ion powered so that doesn't support your opinion on the technology.
The Telsa is built to far outlast it's warranty, just as conventionally powered cars are expected to exceed their warranties.
Recycling doesn't pay because lithium ion batteries are classified as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the municipal waste stream; however, if everyone had a li-ion powered car, their recycling value would definitely increase with simple supply and demand economics.
2 of the 3 t-zero are powered by LEAD. The TESLA will last longer than the batteries, which are only guaranteed for 50K miles, and will probably be prorated. Recycling lithium doesn't pay because getting Lithium from scrap is more difficult than from fresh ore. Study before you blather.
Li-ion batteries are INDEED classified as hazardous waste, and are not allowed in dumps over in Oregon. They are only allowed for turn-in to specified hazardous product disposal facilities for a fee. And liveoilfree is correct. After they're used, they cannot be reconditioned. They have to be REBUILT, using NEW lithium and NEW electrolyte paste.
The Tesla is just as much about PR hype as the Volt. It just gets more press because it's not one of the Big Three.
The lithium ion battery was created by and patented Professor Goodenough of Austin University TX. He lost the patents to some lawyers. GM has now funded a Canadian research company to develope Lithium Sulphur batteries which last 4 times as long. Bob Lutz was involved in the 911 incident.
I have had dealings with the FBI. search Bob Lutz 911 conspiracy.
Lithium batteries run COOL? Um, no. Every lithium pack requires some sort of additional cooling system to keep them from overheating and bursting.
Advancing battery technology is not being scorned. Unfortunately, since there isn't anything available other than the same metal/electrolyte/toxic paste solution, that's kind of a mischaracterization of folks' cynicism. They know the capability of today's batteries for high-load work, and they aren't impressed as far as for cars.
Who cares if they own the NiMh patent. What about lithium ion phosphate and the new lead acid/graphite foam plated batteries with intergrated supercapacitors??? No car company needs to release an electric car today with NiMh batteries, so what's stopping them??
GM possess the technology to produce electric car that has the capacity to go up 400 miles on a single charge. we need to Understand th The oil comaonies and oil producing countries are tossing immense amount of money to keep electric car on the dark. I am praying Russia will cut oil to Europe, and I promise we will see an invasion of electric cars on the market when oil reach 200 Dollar a barrel. Electric will revive when Gm realize
toyota is taking all of its customers. Gm betrayed us
I'm still very iffy on there VOLT I mean what's going to stop them from pull the same Garbage they pulled last time with the EV-1 and make it a lease only with no chance to buy. At least we have the Aptera type-1 to look forward 300mpg or 120 miles to a charge =)
Lithium ION's last longest from what I've seen, Nickel Cadium the worst rechargable batteries. Lithium ION is more on demand and charge anytime at anytime, easier to maintain, but more expensive. It's a toss up between Lithium ION and the new Nickel Hydride.
Is this the same battery the Chinese called Ferris. They use these in their BYD F6 model and claim to run a 250 miles range in one charge of 10 to20 minutes. If there is a restaurant with outlet for charging, you can eat lunch and out in 20 min. with fully charge car for 250 miles!!
The Rayovac Nickel Metal Hydride batteries are pretty cool and seem to hold charge awhile. Cars and Backup UPS units usually use those lead acid batteries, and sealed lead acid batteries.
The problem is that no self-respecting (greedy) investor (who's only interest is money at any cost) is going to put money into a product that once sold gives no more return (I.E. EV's and solar panels) when they can invest in and promote an auto that requires a fuel (I.E. gas, hydrogen, ethanol,) that the car owner has no choice but to buy from them, increasing their profits significantly.
in your opinion any pro-GM comment is spam. you believe that people who like GM are ignorant and unwilling to change their views but just because your view is "enlightened" doesn't mean that you aren't just as stubborn as any pro gm people. your view is just "right" and everyone else is "wrong"
I'm sure liveoilfree is a great guy, but he isn't admitting that the cost of even NiMH batteries isn't cheap ($3000 for a 1.3kWh Prius pack).
If both NiMH and Li-Ion were mass produced for E-REVs, they would both reach the same price-per-kWh (except Li-Ion would be half the weight).
But I agree with him that NiMH could be used effectively in E-REVs now if they were only given a chance by patent holders. But NiMH patents won't expire until 2015, and by then, Li-Ion should be well proven.
isn't jay leno driving a car with ORIGINAL Edison batteries that are over 100 years old? btw...great job on "Who Killed the Electric Car" opened my eyes! thx!
True, the Volt isn't in production, but there's a lot of talk coming out of GM that's confusing a lot of people (and making others pissed). Once we get reliable, consistent information, I think things will start cooling down a bit- and we can actually support this move by GM rather than oppose it. Even if GM produces a lemon, there are still a half-dozen other manufacturers that will be competing. Competition + mass production = consumer friendly pricing and superior products. Just give it time.
The Volt is a user-friendly, cheaper, lower range (on electric) version of the Tesla Roadster. If anything you should be asking why don't they add a larger range option. Also, they can put what they want in the car, what they think will be most profitable for their company. If you want a car powered by something else, buy it from someone else.
I see you delete a lot of posts, I don't work for anyone, opinion based on logic and research, don't be a nazi.
Maybe you are just so much smarter than GM and understand the profit and cost involved better than them... Again GM is not the only company, if you don't like their product, go elsewhere.
The point remains, GM is lying about the batteries, and misrepresenting the performance of the EV1 (and other EVs, some still running). How can they succeed, when they are flying blind??
You say in the video that "no one has had a lithium car with batteries that lasted more than one hundred thousand miles". I'm saying that's wrong. Whatever the facts are, they're trying to pre-sell the concept car, and decided that this is the best route... If NiMh batteries are a better solution, others will use them.
They did use NiMH but got sued. Quit being such a dumb ass and realize that for profit corporations will screw you and lie if it means more money. The Volt can be out TODAY with 100+ mile range if they were sincere PERIOD.
Ha, if they don't transition, the other companies that do will take the market. You can't blame a company for not doing something, it's called capitalism.
You say that liveoilfree's claim is wrong. Can you cite such an example, or name someone who has owned such a car? I think that probably you can't. Not because there is anything wrong with lithium batteries, but because they haven't yet been around long enough for us to know.
Recyclability, longevity and safety are the answer to your accusations. Does a standard car battery last more than 3-4 years? NO. Will it permanently lose charge capability if left uncharged for a period of time? Yes.
Lithium-Ion batteries are more eco-friendly, lighter and can last, yes, at LEAST 100,000 miles. That's Tesla's warranty, so they are expected to last longer than that. Replacing these may be expensive, but doesn't change the capability of the car.
Actually, the RAV4-EV proves that NiMH batteries last longer than 10 years. But Lithium batteries famously have only a 3-year shelf life. Why believe GM??
Lithium-Ion batteries are still more recyclable and eco-friendly, lighter etc.
If Tesla warranties the lithium-ion batteries for 100k mi, I'd believe they go farther than that without a problem. With the lower number/size/cost of the batteris in the Volt, thecost to replace these after say, 150k mi is not too bad.
If GM were going to make the VOLT, they would do so instead of talking about it. So far, 10 years ago there were EVs; GM went from producing EVs to talk, talk, talk. GM is a sham.
There should be a open source technology and harmonization to allow economy of scale both for batteries and chargers, build up of recycling capacity, I think. This is a case for the DoT to have a saying about promising technologies and fake promises.
Kudos! Agree with bottom poster, check out Phoenix Motors, Zap X, Zenn, LionEV, etc. If you have a taste for higher check out the sweet Tesla! Wonder how these start-ups make superior electrics then the big care manufacturers? hmmmm!
No real EV is for sale. NONE. The Tesla will perhaps be available next year for pre-paid buyers, but new orders stretch to 2009 or beyond. Phoenix depends on selling ZEV credits; the rest are bogus IMO, no financing.
I agree that the NiMH batteries can do the job just fine, and SHOULD be used right now while we wait for the A123 lithium battery cost to come down. I think you are missing one important point: Nano Lithium batteries by A123 and Altair are set to revolutionize EV's when their costs come down. Life cycles are expected to be 250,000+ miles. They're biodegradable, safe (unlike conventional lithium) and much lighter.
I talked with the A123 folks at EVS-23 (q.v.). While convincing, and their use on Bill Dube's Killacycles is evident, there are still rough spots in their story. For example, they claim long cycle and shelf life, but Bill was unwilling to sell his old pack to me because of the BMS problem.....
You drive the EV until the Nickel batteries are exhausted (depending on the size of the pack, 50 miles, 70 miles, 100 miles). When the batteries are empty, THEN the genset starts up, but NOT to charge the batteries (although it COULD).
Mykalb, this is not right. The NiMH batteries drive the car 40 miles, they are exhausted. Usually, that's your daily run. You are back in the barn and recharge for the next day.
Now if you have to go farther, the generator starts up, NOT TO RECHARGE THE BATTERIES but to run the car directly.
Think about how batteries work in a real car. GM is ignorant.
mykallb, all proven technologies are "old". The Panasonic (not GM) lead acid battery pack in the 1997 and 1999 EV1 took it up to 110 miles on a charge. It was all we needed for the daily commute.
"What I do know is that real life EV1 drivers were hard pressed to even get 60 miles"
THAT'S JUST FALSE. We routinely got over 150 miles on our 1999 Nickel EV1, and over 100 miles on our 1997 Lead EV1 when the defective GM battery was replaced by better Panasonic lead batteies.
Zan, Toyota HAD made more than 328! But GM and Chevron worked together to stop them from making the battery. Study a bit, Chevron funded the lawsuit for its unit cobasys against Toyota's use of the Nickel battery. Study before you write.
Zan, you ignore the reality of the Toyota RAV4-EV, which demonstrates that Nickel batteries can propel an EV over 100 miles oil-free. Toyota is an American employer, and those jobs count, too. GM had its chance.
Zan, GM is not making the VOLT at all. The prototype is pathetic. If they had any smarts, or interest in producing it, they would use the EV1 drivetrain. The video of the golf-cart, whining prototype is designed to turn people off. Why release it??
Maso, YOU forget that the Toyota RAV4-EV is a 5-passenger EV that's heavier, also, than the supposed VOLT. And the 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV goes over 100 miles on a charge, up to 150 miles in a pinch.
Maso, Toyota only had 328 Toyota RAV4-EV, this was after Chevron had funded the lawsuit against them. There was no possibiligy of making any more, because there had been two design changes since it was first leased (not sold) in 1997. The last 328 were sold to the public in Mar. to Nov., 2002.
Maso, GM stopped production of the NiMH EV1 in 1998, a year before they issued it. They doled out the 465 they had made, a few at a time, after CARB forced them to release 200 in Dec. 1999.
Why trash Toyota, when Lutz and GM get away with killing Electric cars, and then have the gall to lie about it, just barely two years after arresting would-be buyers.
It's easy to be a critic and attack Toyota; but these critics are soft on GM, and let Lutz get away with awful howlers.
Lutz stated to them, and got away with it, that "nickel is too heavy" (LOL, tell that to EV1 drivers), "nickel is toxic" (it's NiCd, and it's the Cadmium), and that Nickel is too expensive. But Lithium costs more than Ni, and has a shorter lifespan.
Toyota treated us as customers, while GM turned away the business. So GM's refusal to produce the Volt is right in character. GM is a liar, always has been.
After being forced to release the NiMH EV1 in Dec., 1999, GM sold control of the batteries to Texaco on Oct. 10, 2000. Six days later, its merger into Standard Oil was announced. Now these big firms don't decide to merge on the spur of the moment! GM sold to TX, so they could say it wasn't to Chevron directly. But it was Chevron that funded the lawsuit against Toyota, which then stopped the line and killed the batteries.
It was GM that arrested potential EV1 buyers in March, 2005, and sent goons out to intimidate would-be buyers who waited in the rain for a chance to buy one for $25K cash. To say GM could not sell the product it produced is disingenuous and deceitful.
"...where are the attacks on Honda...Only GM...why?"
--Lutz is the one speaking falsely. GM helped Chevron kill the batteries. GM, under guise of building the EV1, bought control of the NiMH patent rights in 1994. GM tried to suppress, refusing to issue the NiMH EV1 until forced by CARB. Honda and Toyota, in 1997, forced the issue by releasing NiMH 100+ mile EVs. GM would not have released, EV1 would have died in 1997. There's a lot of history. GM lied, then and now.
Honda was as sleazy as GM. They asked us to being it in for "special service" and confiscated it, cancelled our lease and crushed it. GM was just about as sleazy and underhanded.
If Bob Lutz produces this car, he won't have build a sales base! He's ignoring the demographic that would be buyers: former RangerEV,HondaEV, EV1 and would-be RAV4-EV drivers, Th!nk drivers, and would-be EV drivers.
The fact that Lutz & Co. are ignoring buyers indicates they have no plans for actual sales.
Q.E.D.
Prove me wrong, make the car. But then, why did GM crush the EV1.
And Toyota didn't crush the RAV4-EV, the sold it honorably. Unlike GM.
BMS: sealed lead batteries must not be over-charged, there are many examples of packs failing. The "charging problem" is too complex to explain in 50 chars. The NiMH BMS relies upon thermal feedback to level the cells, but they are very, very stable and only need it once a month or so. Ironically, flooded-cell Lead have the least problem because over-charging just bleeds off H2 and O2 gas.
This is the whole secret of making the 18-650 cells work: I suppose that GM has not the slightest idea of what it takes to do so. This BMS, created by genius engineers for the original EV1 and T-zero, is really required for seal lead and also for Lithium batteries. The BMS for NiMH is different. Thermal Management System is required to make sure that the power draw doesn't cause thermal runaway. When done right, 18-650 are as stable as Phosphate (dumbed-down) LP.
BMS on LP: using 18-650 cells requires a sophisticated Battery Management System. This monitors each cell, or bank of cells, to make sure the cell voltage does not fall below the point where power draw will cause internal resistence to rise (fire event). The TMS guards against fires.
More about Lithium-polymer. One of the big problems is the voltage curve vs. power draw. One LP motorcycle, using Chinese cells, had a "firecracker event" via high power draw below 3.2v per cell. The LP cells turned into rather spectacular heat generators, causing even a small brushfire. Tesla and T-zero guard against this via BMS.
There are a lot of Lithium-polymer battery cell makers in China. Unfortunately, their track record is spotty, and when they fail, the makers don't honor guarantees. As Coach said, "...let's not run with the ball before catching it...". Proof, not prediction.
The Tesla will be water-cooled also; BTW, no one can be sure about A123. So far, it's all what they claim. We hope it works, but let's not take hype for reality.
T-zero started out with 28 12-v lead batteries, that was its standard configuration, and it went up to 100 miles on the 18 kWh. At that time the standard EV battery was the Optima YT, after being purchased by JCI, they were de-rated and only 39 amp-hours (about 12-14 kWh).
Not to belabor the point, but the Tesla isn't exactly "in production" right now; not one has yet been delivered. We are expecting it. The Tesla, like the t-zero, must operate at higher voltage and much higher power than the VOLT. The RAV4-EV, which like the VOLT won't be fast, operates at 288v with PM 3-ph motors.
NiMH RAV4-EV pack, perfect for the VOLT, would not work on Tesla or T-zero, which needs immense power, up to 150 kW (200 hp). Ironically, engineers went to Lithium because good Lead batteries were not available at that time. NiMH would NOT be suitable for this configuration; the most the RAV4-EV puts out is about 60 kW. NiMH just won't take the same abuse as Lead or Lithium. However, it WAS enough for the 1999 EV1, fast, but not as fast as with Lead batteries.
The Tesla hardware is worth the $100K. It's based on the ACP T-zero, which has 100 banks in series of 68 parallel 18-650 Lithium cells.
Thus, Lithium has a discharge curve around 3.6v, it operates at 360v nominal, and that's why it's so fast. The Tesla uses this base proven technology, the question is whether it can be brought into production and what the cycle-life is.
Lithium batteries work in small appliances such as cell phones and computers. The Tesla uses 6800 of the 18-650 Lithium commodity laptop batteries.
When used in an auto, however, some say cycle-life is an issue. That means after 30,000 or 50,000 miles, there may be battery degradation. This problem may or may not have been solved with Lithium.
Well as you may know, the UAW and GM were recently rewriting their long term contract. Well one of the parts of this contract was for GM to ensure the UAW they will continue to produce specific vehicles in specific plants to prevent anymore job losses.
One of the vehicles mentioned on the contact is the Volt. They're locked in now. They have to make it.
I hope so. However, GM has also been perfidious with its own workers, they may be saying that so they can pull the rug out when they claim the batteries failed.
Maybe the cost is part of why they're using li-ion. GM is barely staying in business right now with their profitable full size vehicles, and comparatively "high maintenance" gas only cars.
If they lose maintenance as a major form of income, they need to get it back from somewhere. Especially with how quickly they are losing US market share. I personally believe that's why they are so focused on E85 and Hydrogen.
Are you really the guy in the video? Your text comments are considerably more crazy than the comments made in the video. In fact you sound a lot like tribluered.
GM already wishes they didn't discontinue the EV1 because it was such bad PR. If they didn't follow through with the Volt, it would be much much worse.
The Volt already had it's own design studio and 2 concepts based on it's architecture (platform). They want the Volt to happen just as much as we do.
The batteries are critical. Any company going into the EV busines must own:
1. The batteries.
2. The motor-controller.
GM has neither. The only proven batteries are Lead and NiMH. Lithium is a sham, no one has gotten it to work in an EV. It has unacceptable life-cycle cost and a shelf-life issue.
What do you mean he sounds like me? He knows more than me. Anyways hes right, no one has fully tested li-ion. But that doesn't mean li-ion is not going to last long. But still NiMH is the best choice. The volt is only a publicity stunt, everyone knows it. Why not you? GM has no support for EVs. They are relying on other companies to supply them.
If they wanted profit from the batteries, they would buy cheaper NiMH batteries and jack up the price to the customers. Not buy expensive Li-ion batteries and charge a low price.
Why are you targeting GM? Who cares what batteries they plan on using. At least they are willing to bring back the electric car. Something Toyota, and all other major automakers haven't pledged to do.
M., I guess it boils down to just not trusting that GM is serious. Considering how ignorant GM is about how an EV works, I think caution is justified. It was barely two years ago that GM arrested rather than take money from would-be customers.
Z, this argument that "Ni is damaging" is disingenuous. Everything has an impact; even regenerative systems. But compare the cost of drilling oil, fighting oil wars, and what's left afte burning the oil, with recyclable Ni. We know something about this, perhaps you would like a scholium on the issue?
Z, there's a big, big difference between Lithium working in power tools (I have one too) and working in an EV. We know something about that; the good things, and the bad. If A123 performs, I'll be surprised; I doubt if GM knows enough to evaluate. Lutz doesn't know a life cycle from a cycle life!
The videos speak for themselves. I just drive by at random, to check it out; this is the first time I've taken videos. Next, I'll show both, deserted Chevy lot and bustling Toyota and Nissan lots. The point is, GM failed to meet customer demand.
One more thing, the reason to use NiMH is because they are proven, and work. Lithium is not proven to work in an EV; in fact, there are many failures, which you would probably be too bored to study.
People stood in the rain for 28 days for the mere chance of getting one. To make that EV1, I'm informed, would take perhaps two years, from scratch; but there's already a factory, it's not used, and the skilled folks are available. The design is known, the subcontractors would be the only holdup. I bet a good M.E. could fix that. Too bad GM doesn not have even one??
Don't forget, it was engineers who made the EV1, they are still around, the plans are there, and insiders have confidentially informed me that the EV1 staff has been laid off, and is available in what is now an empty factory if only GM wished to do so.
Today's article in the WSJ by Joseph White points out that GM's real problem may be BORING CARS. THE EV1 WAS NOT BORING!
The facts are sitting in the drive. We ONLY charge it via the Regen braking shunt, NEVER via the magnecharger.
When you say "minimal", you obviously illustrate your own ignorance about EVs and charging them up. Many phony engineers argue falsely against a plug-in serial hybrid; perhaps they are paid a dime-a-line by GM, like some phony agents provocateur.
Don't forget, GM already had the plug-in serial hybrid in 1969! It was an Olds.
The Chevrolet Volt is also Motor Trend's car of the year.
DanielJaegerFilms 6 months ago
Don't get me wrong--I'd love to see mass-produced pure electric vehicles. But we simply can't ignore that the charging infrastructure isn't there and without some sort of guarantee (perhaps a gov't. mandate), no company wants to commit to providing that infrastructure without knowing how profitable it will be. As a stop-gap between current cars and future developments, the Volt represents a reasonable transition and will hopefully lead to more development in the area of pure-electric vehicles.
TV843 1 year ago
@TV843
The electric infrastructure is already there, and putting up charging stations is incredibly cost effective. The problem is the oil lobby is far more powerful in congress than the coal lobby. 90% of american business is political in nature. The free market simply doesn't work here.
rickcain2320 7 months ago
I am still looking for any of these future EV manufacturers that will be using NiMH batteries so I can buy it! Looks like I'll have to get them put in after market.
Sc0rPsX 2 years ago
Theres a reason why most asians that live in NA drive japanese cars...cause american cars are crap!! And they now it! The bailouts didnt go to Toyota or Honda or Nissan or mazda ect, they went to two american car companies!
My 2006 toyota camry is worth more then a three year old chevy, and it gets better mileage too.
F Detroit, they can only sell gas pigs, so WHEN gas prices go back up, there sales will drop them into hell again! Other then maybe Ford, srew the other two!!
gabbogabbo 2 years ago
Don't tell people you drive a toyota
Now your stuck with that Jap car
your toyota and 50MPG is nothing
So get an American car unless you live
In Japan....
youfja 2 years ago
GM's main concern is longevity with the batteries not if they will work.
To GM's defense (and I'm not typically one to defend auto manufacturers), they have constructed the largest and most sophisticated battery testing plant in North America. I hope they use it wisely and produce as many Volts and many variations thereof.
moaski 2 years ago
Unfortunately, GM has always hated battery engineers (calling them "wire benders", not real car guys) and GM is a BATTERY IGNORAMUS. No amount of appearance and phony "labs" anwer the question of GM ignorance and LIES.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
I know that GM has been poorly run, their managers and CEOs have been stuck in the glory age of the Big Three, Im sure they would rather sell supercharged V-8s than battery packs, etcbut to say that the Global Battery Systems Lab is phony sounds extremist dont you think?
A company restructuring in Chapter 11 has more important things to do with their time and money than create phony labs. Their intent is to remain a world leader in automobile manufacturing.
moaski 2 years ago
If GM cared about the facts and the batteries, they would use proven lead-acid or NiMH to get the VOLT on the road!! Later, upgrade to Lithium, if and when it's proven. GM knows nothing about batteries, and is run by nincompoops.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Everything I have heard about Lithium batteries is they are lighter weight, run cool, have longer useful life, won't burn and provide more productivity per charge. Seems absolutely ideal for automotive use.
I use lithium batteries in cordless power tools, PDAs, cellphones and laptops all the time.
Advancing battery technology shouldn't be scorned even if the company is run by nincompoops.
moaski 2 years ago
Battery technology is complicated. Lithium works in consumer electronics, as does ZnO; but so far, no Lithium EV has lasted more than 50K miles, and the battery pack in the TESLA costs $50K to replace. Figure it out...
liveoilfree 2 years ago
The Tesla has the longest range of any production electric vehicle in history. It is the first of it's kind and is priced accordingly (starting at over $100k). Lithium ion batteries are easier to recycle and don't have memory problems like nickel cadmium. Tesla also claims their battery pack will give you more than 100,000 miles of peak performance driving.
What's to figure out?
moaski 2 years ago
Well, you need to learn the FACTS. Lithium is NOT easy to recyle, having NO scrap value; while almost all Nickel (used in Stainless, monel, etc.) IS recycled! Tesla is only guaranteed for 50K miles and may not last that long. NiCd is NOT NiMH!!
liveoilfree 2 years ago
BTW, the T-zero had a longer range, and was allegedly in "production" (meaning you get a vin number).
liveoilfree 2 years ago
The T-zero is li-ion powered so that doesn't support your opinion on the technology.
The Telsa is built to far outlast it's warranty, just as conventionally powered cars are expected to exceed their warranties.
Recycling doesn't pay because lithium ion batteries are classified as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the municipal waste stream; however, if everyone had a li-ion powered car, their recycling value would definitely increase with simple supply and demand economics.
PromoterOfJustice 2 years ago 2
2 of the 3 t-zero are powered by LEAD. The TESLA will last longer than the batteries, which are only guaranteed for 50K miles, and will probably be prorated. Recycling lithium doesn't pay because getting Lithium from scrap is more difficult than from fresh ore. Study before you blather.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Li-ion batteries are INDEED classified as hazardous waste, and are not allowed in dumps over in Oregon. They are only allowed for turn-in to specified hazardous product disposal facilities for a fee. And liveoilfree is correct. After they're used, they cannot be reconditioned. They have to be REBUILT, using NEW lithium and NEW electrolyte paste.
The Tesla is just as much about PR hype as the Volt. It just gets more press because it's not one of the Big Three.
cecilbdml 2 years ago
@PromoterOfJustice
The lithium ion battery was created by and patented Professor Goodenough of Austin University TX. He lost the patents to some lawyers. GM has now funded a Canadian research company to develope Lithium Sulphur batteries which last 4 times as long. Bob Lutz was involved in the 911 incident.
I have had dealings with the FBI. search Bob Lutz 911 conspiracy.
intervalkid 1 year ago
Lithium batteries run COOL? Um, no. Every lithium pack requires some sort of additional cooling system to keep them from overheating and bursting.
Advancing battery technology is not being scorned. Unfortunately, since there isn't anything available other than the same metal/electrolyte/toxic paste solution, that's kind of a mischaracterization of folks' cynicism. They know the capability of today's batteries for high-load work, and they aren't impressed as far as for cars.
cecilbdml 2 years ago
why wait for big motor company's to produce electric cars? convert your own people dont be lazy!!!
edstar83 2 years ago
Who cares if they own the NiMh patent. What about lithium ion phosphate and the new lead acid/graphite foam plated batteries with intergrated supercapacitors??? No car company needs to release an electric car today with NiMh batteries, so what's stopping them??
1dschamp 3 years ago
We shouldn't leave the manufacturing of electric cars to the car companies!!! Bring America the zev mandate!!!
Superbravo6A 3 years ago
GM possess the technology to produce electric car that has the capacity to go up 400 miles on a single charge. we need to Understand th The oil comaonies and oil producing countries are tossing immense amount of money to keep electric car on the dark. I am praying Russia will cut oil to Europe, and I promise we will see an invasion of electric cars on the market when oil reach 200 Dollar a barrel. Electric will revive when Gm realize
toyota is taking all of its customers. Gm betrayed us
islandluc 3 years ago 10
O yes look at the video responses GM had baterys fro 100 miles range since 1995 now in 2008 the Volt has 40 miles
kostea13 3 years ago
I'm still very iffy on there VOLT I mean what's going to stop them from pull the same Garbage they pulled last time with the EV-1 and make it a lease only with no chance to buy. At least we have the Aptera type-1 to look forward 300mpg or 120 miles to a charge =)
GANTZ100pts 3 years ago
If they need lead they can recycle alot of it in Pitcher, Oklahoma.
KnightChatX 3 years ago
Lithium ION's last longest from what I've seen, Nickel Cadium the worst rechargable batteries. Lithium ION is more on demand and charge anytime at anytime, easier to maintain, but more expensive. It's a toss up between Lithium ION and the new Nickel Hydride.
KnightChatX 3 years ago
The newest technology is Lithium Iron Phosphate. Recharges quickly, very safe, long life, good power density. They are relatively new/expensive.
andyplace 3 years ago
Is this the same battery the Chinese called Ferris. They use these in their BYD F6 model and claim to run a 250 miles range in one charge of 10 to20 minutes. If there is a restaurant with outlet for charging, you can eat lunch and out in 20 min. with fully charge car for 250 miles!!
amoringis 2 years ago
The Rayovac Nickel Metal Hydride batteries are pretty cool and seem to hold charge awhile. Cars and Backup UPS units usually use those lead acid batteries, and sealed lead acid batteries.
KnightChatX 3 years ago
I mean most cars and backup units us standard lead acid batteries. Backup UPS usually uses the sealed lead acid batteries.
KnightChatX 3 years ago
Nickel Cadium and Hydride Batteries. And Lithium ION.
KnightChatX 3 years ago
The problem is that no self-respecting (greedy) investor (who's only interest is money at any cost) is going to put money into a product that once sold gives no more return (I.E. EV's and solar panels) when they can invest in and promote an auto that requires a fuel (I.E. gas, hydrogen, ethanol,) that the car owner has no choice but to buy from them, increasing their profits significantly.
GSpotter63 3 years ago
in your opinion any pro-GM comment is spam. you believe that people who like GM are ignorant and unwilling to change their views but just because your view is "enlightened" doesn't mean that you aren't just as stubborn as any pro gm people. your view is just "right" and everyone else is "wrong"
ambee514 3 years ago
I'm sure liveoilfree is a great guy, but he isn't admitting that the cost of even NiMH batteries isn't cheap ($3000 for a 1.3kWh Prius pack).
If both NiMH and Li-Ion were mass produced for E-REVs, they would both reach the same price-per-kWh (except Li-Ion would be half the weight).
But I agree with him that NiMH could be used effectively in E-REVs now if they were only given a chance by patent holders. But NiMH patents won't expire until 2015, and by then, Li-Ion should be well proven.
diggingforgold 3 years ago 3
I don't care if it is available or not right now that is not problem. Someon just needs to start mass producing these things. FAST!!!!!!!!
BigHermVDB 3 years ago
isn't jay leno driving a car with ORIGINAL Edison batteries that are over 100 years old? btw...great job on "Who Killed the Electric Car" opened my eyes! thx!
GamerGuy51 3 years ago
Yes, Leno's car uses Fe-Ni (Nickel-Iron) batteries. They put out less power than NiMH, but just wash them out after 100 years, and presto!
liveoilfree 3 years ago
Hmmm,....one word: nanowire battery. Wait 5 or so years to purchase a electric car, thats when real technology will be readily avaliable
tedcanihelp 4 years ago
We're DRIVING the real technology right now!
What are you going to believe, GM or your own eyes?
liveoilfree 4 years ago
True, the Volt isn't in production, but there's a lot of talk coming out of GM that's confusing a lot of people (and making others pissed). Once we get reliable, consistent information, I think things will start cooling down a bit- and we can actually support this move by GM rather than oppose it. Even if GM produces a lemon, there are still a half-dozen other manufacturers that will be competing. Competition + mass production = consumer friendly pricing and superior products. Just give it time.
diggingforgold 4 years ago
The problem is, GM lies about the batteries, or at least, hasn't been willing to consider it. Once a liar...
liveoilfree 3 years ago
hay gramps, the Volt isn't even in production yet. do you know 100 % of everything planned for the Volt?
LolaJudd 4 years ago
Yes.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
rancor, the only posts deleted were spam.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The Volt is a user-friendly, cheaper, lower range (on electric) version of the Tesla Roadster. If anything you should be asking why don't they add a larger range option. Also, they can put what they want in the car, what they think will be most profitable for their company. If you want a car powered by something else, buy it from someone else.
I see you delete a lot of posts, I don't work for anyone, opinion based on logic and research, don't be a nazi.
rancor169 4 years ago
The point remains, GM is not telling the truth about the EV1 or about batteries.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Maybe you are just so much smarter than GM and understand the profit and cost involved better than them... Again GM is not the only company, if you don't like their product, go elsewhere.
rancor169 4 years ago
The point remains, GM is lying about the batteries, and misrepresenting the performance of the EV1 (and other EVs, some still running). How can they succeed, when they are flying blind??
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You say in the video that "no one has had a lithium car with batteries that lasted more than one hundred thousand miles". I'm saying that's wrong. Whatever the facts are, they're trying to pre-sell the concept car, and decided that this is the best route... If NiMh batteries are a better solution, others will use them.
rancor169 4 years ago
They did use NiMH but got sued. Quit being such a dumb ass and realize that for profit corporations will screw you and lie if it means more money. The Volt can be out TODAY with 100+ mile range if they were sincere PERIOD.
Sc0rPsX 4 years ago
Ha, if they don't transition, the other companies that do will take the market. You can't blame a company for not doing something, it's called capitalism.
rancor169 4 years ago
You say that liveoilfree's claim is wrong. Can you cite such an example, or name someone who has owned such a car? I think that probably you can't. Not because there is anything wrong with lithium batteries, but because they haven't yet been around long enough for us to know.
douchebarge 4 years ago
I did, try reading the other posts - Tesla
This post was so long ago, I had to look back...
rancor169 4 years ago
LiveOilFree is correct.
TypeORedPill 4 years ago
Recyclability, longevity and safety are the answer to your accusations. Does a standard car battery last more than 3-4 years? NO. Will it permanently lose charge capability if left uncharged for a period of time? Yes.
Lithium-Ion batteries are more eco-friendly, lighter and can last, yes, at LEAST 100,000 miles. That's Tesla's warranty, so they are expected to last longer than that. Replacing these may be expensive, but doesn't change the capability of the car.
rancor169 4 years ago
Actually, the RAV4-EV proves that NiMH batteries last longer than 10 years. But Lithium batteries famously have only a 3-year shelf life. Why believe GM??
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Lithium-Ion batteries are still more recyclable and eco-friendly, lighter etc.
If Tesla warranties the lithium-ion batteries for 100k mi, I'd believe they go farther than that without a problem. With the lower number/size/cost of the batteris in the Volt, thecost to replace these after say, 150k mi is not too bad.
rancor169 4 years ago
this article is so anti american .
Leave GM alone they are trying to help and make a great car.
Why not support them. Stop the BS people and support your own country and your countrys car company.
mdshoreboy 4 years ago
If GM were going to make the VOLT, they would do so instead of talking about it. So far, 10 years ago there were EVs; GM went from producing EVs to talk, talk, talk. GM is a sham.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Well I think somebody should push the clouds away - this battery issue is completely in the dark:
- LiCo is not usable-because its to unsafe
- LiMn is used in tiny cells but also golf carts now but patents are restricting its use?
- LiFePO4 is sold in small doses and expensive but has the longest life span?
- others are promising much more but have no prove records
- the Chinese are eager to step into the market starting with affordable bike batteries but are not ready for car batteries?
gerfriedc 4 years ago
There should be a open source technology and harmonization to allow economy of scale both for batteries and chargers, build up of recycling capacity, I think. This is a case for the DoT to have a saying about promising technologies and fake promises.
Let's get serious!
gerfriedc 4 years ago
Nickel metal hydride works great, lasts longer than the life of the car.
Lead works too, good enough for 100 miles of all-electric range.
Who says there's no batteries???
liveoilfree 4 years ago
nimh will degrade quickly in cold climates
woodmed24 2 years ago
Kudos! Agree with bottom poster, check out Phoenix Motors, Zap X, Zenn, LionEV, etc. If you have a taste for higher check out the sweet Tesla! Wonder how these start-ups make superior electrics then the big care manufacturers? hmmmm!
Sc0rPsX 4 years ago
No real EV is for sale. NONE. The Tesla will perhaps be available next year for pre-paid buyers, but new orders stretch to 2009 or beyond. Phoenix depends on selling ZEV credits; the rest are bogus IMO, no financing.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
So pay it in cash? If the other EV manufacturers don't have something early next year I'll be ordering from LionEV.
Sc0rPsX 4 years ago
See Phoenix Motorcars - a company that will hopefully keep GM in check or eat their lunch.
bostoncbr 4 years ago
I agree that the NiMH batteries can do the job just fine, and SHOULD be used right now while we wait for the A123 lithium battery cost to come down. I think you are missing one important point: Nano Lithium batteries by A123 and Altair are set to revolutionize EV's when their costs come down. Life cycles are expected to be 250,000+ miles. They're biodegradable, safe (unlike conventional lithium) and much lighter.
bostoncbr 4 years ago
I talked with the A123 folks at EVS-23 (q.v.). While convincing, and their use on Bill Dube's Killacycles is evident, there are still rough spots in their story. For example, they claim long cycle and shelf life, but Bill was unwilling to sell his old pack to me because of the BMS problem.....
liveoilfree 4 years ago
It sounds to me like GM want to use "intellectual property" laws to monopolize Lithium as well. Then blackmail another oil company with 'em.
badnewswade 4 years ago
GM knows nothing about the batteries.
Look at the "prototype" picture, 3 golf cart batteries and an empty soap box!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Legitimate comments that exhibit knowledge or issues will be allowed; GM spammers will be removed.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The proven batteries are lead acid and Nickel, not Lithium; Lithium is far more expensive than either Lead or Nickel.
Nickel batteries LIKE to be discharged. They only heat up when full, not empty!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You drive the EV until the Nickel batteries are exhausted (depending on the size of the pack, 50 miles, 70 miles, 100 miles). When the batteries are empty, THEN the genset starts up, but NOT to charge the batteries (although it COULD).
liveoilfree 4 years ago
I know this concept is difficult to understand, for GM gasoholics; but the level of ignorance exhibited by these spammers is startling.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Mykalb, this is not right. The NiMH batteries drive the car 40 miles, they are exhausted. Usually, that's your daily run. You are back in the barn and recharge for the next day.
Now if you have to go farther, the generator starts up, NOT TO RECHARGE THE BATTERIES but to run the car directly.
Think about how batteries work in a real car. GM is ignorant.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Mykallb,
The RAV4-EV can, also, charge on 120 or 240 (or 208) current.
All this is a matter of human ingenuity; you can say "it won't" but the winning Yankee attitude is "I can make it work".
liveoilfree 4 years ago
mykallb, all proven technologies are "old". The Panasonic (not GM) lead acid battery pack in the 1997 and 1999 EV1 took it up to 110 miles on a charge. It was all we needed for the daily commute.
So why not use "old", proven technology?
liveoilfree 4 years ago
"What I do know is that real life EV1 drivers were hard pressed to even get 60 miles"
THAT'S JUST FALSE. We routinely got over 150 miles on our 1999 Nickel EV1, and over 100 miles on our 1997 Lead EV1 when the defective GM battery was replaced by better Panasonic lead batteies.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Zan, Toyota HAD made more than 328! But GM and Chevron worked together to stop them from making the battery. Study a bit, Chevron funded the lawsuit for its unit cobasys against Toyota's use of the Nickel battery. Study before you write.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Zan, you ignore the reality of the Toyota RAV4-EV, which demonstrates that Nickel batteries can propel an EV over 100 miles oil-free. Toyota is an American employer, and those jobs count, too. GM had its chance.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Zan, GM is not making the VOLT at all. The prototype is pathetic. If they had any smarts, or interest in producing it, they would use the EV1 drivetrain. The video of the golf-cart, whining prototype is designed to turn people off. Why release it??
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Maso, YOU forget that the Toyota RAV4-EV is a 5-passenger EV that's heavier, also, than the supposed VOLT. And the 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV goes over 100 miles on a charge, up to 150 miles in a pinch.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Maso, Toyota only had 328 Toyota RAV4-EV, this was after Chevron had funded the lawsuit against them. There was no possibiligy of making any more, because there had been two design changes since it was first leased (not sold) in 1997. The last 328 were sold to the public in Mar. to Nov., 2002.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Maso, GM stopped production of the NiMH EV1 in 1998, a year before they issued it. They doled out the 465 they had made, a few at a time, after CARB forced them to release 200 in Dec. 1999.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Why trash Toyota, when Lutz and GM get away with killing Electric cars, and then have the gall to lie about it, just barely two years after arresting would-be buyers.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
It's easy to be a critic and attack Toyota; but these critics are soft on GM, and let Lutz get away with awful howlers.
Lutz stated to them, and got away with it, that "nickel is too heavy" (LOL, tell that to EV1 drivers), "nickel is toxic" (it's NiCd, and it's the Cadmium), and that Nickel is too expensive. But Lithium costs more than Ni, and has a shorter lifespan.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
They made the RAV4EV and sold it to people.
GM on the other hand, made an EV, leased it to people, then took them all back and crushed them.
ddilucido 4 years ago
GM is the company that's lying, still killing the Electric car.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Toyota treated us as customers, while GM turned away the business. So GM's refusal to produce the Volt is right in character. GM is a liar, always has been.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
GM deserves all the blame for ruining the EVs. They sued Toyota and Panasonic for selling the Rav4 EV. Do some research before you talk.
tribluered 4 years ago
After being forced to release the NiMH EV1 in Dec., 1999, GM sold control of the batteries to Texaco on Oct. 10, 2000. Six days later, its merger into Standard Oil was announced. Now these big firms don't decide to merge on the spur of the moment! GM sold to TX, so they could say it wasn't to Chevron directly. But it was Chevron that funded the lawsuit against Toyota, which then stopped the line and killed the batteries.
GM.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
It was GM that arrested potential EV1 buyers in March, 2005, and sent goons out to intimidate would-be buyers who waited in the rain for a chance to buy one for $25K cash. To say GM could not sell the product it produced is disingenuous and deceitful.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
"...where are the attacks on Honda...Only GM...why?"
--Lutz is the one speaking falsely. GM helped Chevron kill the batteries. GM, under guise of building the EV1, bought control of the NiMH patent rights in 1994. GM tried to suppress, refusing to issue the NiMH EV1 until forced by CARB. Honda and Toyota, in 1997, forced the issue by releasing NiMH 100+ mile EVs. GM would not have released, EV1 would have died in 1997. There's a lot of history. GM lied, then and now.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You're claiming you can't sell the product you make? Very interesting.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
If Lutz and GM produce this car, they won't have a sales base!
He's ignoring the demographic of would-be buyers: former RangerEV,HondaEV, EV1 and would-be RAV4-EV drivers, Th!nk drivers, and would-be EV drivers.
The fact that Lutz & Co. are ignoring buyers indicates they have no plans for actual sales. Q.E.D.
Prove me wrong, make the car. But then, why did GM crush the EV1.
And Toyota didn't crush the RAV4-EV, they sold it honorably. Unlike GM.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Ford, responding to customer demand, stopped crushing the RangerEV and decided to sell the remaining copies to their customers...for $1.
After all, if GM says the EV1 was no good, why not sell it to us for scrap value? They paid about $800 each to crush them.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Honda was as sleazy as GM. They asked us to being it in for "special service" and confiscated it, cancelled our lease and crushed it. GM was just about as sleazy and underhanded.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
If Bob Lutz produces this car, he won't have build a sales base! He's ignoring the demographic that would be buyers: former RangerEV,HondaEV, EV1 and would-be RAV4-EV drivers, Th!nk drivers, and would-be EV drivers.
The fact that Lutz & Co. are ignoring buyers indicates they have no plans for actual sales.
Q.E.D.
Prove me wrong, make the car. But then, why did GM crush the EV1.
And Toyota didn't crush the RAV4-EV, the sold it honorably. Unlike GM.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
BMS: sealed lead batteries must not be over-charged, there are many examples of packs failing. The "charging problem" is too complex to explain in 50 chars. The NiMH BMS relies upon thermal feedback to level the cells, but they are very, very stable and only need it once a month or so. Ironically, flooded-cell Lead have the least problem because over-charging just bleeds off H2 and O2 gas.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
This is the whole secret of making the 18-650 cells work: I suppose that GM has not the slightest idea of what it takes to do so. This BMS, created by genius engineers for the original EV1 and T-zero, is really required for seal lead and also for Lithium batteries. The BMS for NiMH is different. Thermal Management System is required to make sure that the power draw doesn't cause thermal runaway. When done right, 18-650 are as stable as Phosphate (dumbed-down) LP.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
BMS on LP: using 18-650 cells requires a sophisticated Battery Management System. This monitors each cell, or bank of cells, to make sure the cell voltage does not fall below the point where power draw will cause internal resistence to rise (fire event). The TMS guards against fires.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
More about Lithium-polymer. One of the big problems is the voltage curve vs. power draw. One LP motorcycle, using Chinese cells, had a "firecracker event" via high power draw below 3.2v per cell. The LP cells turned into rather spectacular heat generators, causing even a small brushfire. Tesla and T-zero guard against this via BMS.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
There are a lot of Lithium-polymer battery cell makers in China. Unfortunately, their track record is spotty, and when they fail, the makers don't honor guarantees. As Coach said, "...let's not run with the ball before catching it...". Proof, not prediction.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The Tesla will be water-cooled also; BTW, no one can be sure about A123. So far, it's all what they claim. We hope it works, but let's not take hype for reality.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Actually, it's nominally 4.2v, but the discharge curve aggregates around 3.6v.
Newer chemistries operate at lower voltages; the A123 go down to 2.3v. There are a number of Phosphate, Ti and other additives.
Normal Lithium dies if it falls below 3.2v or so. We have dead batteries to show you to prove this point.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
T-zero started out with 28 12-v lead batteries, that was its standard configuration, and it went up to 100 miles on the 18 kWh. At that time the standard EV battery was the Optima YT, after being purchased by JCI, they were de-rated and only 39 amp-hours (about 12-14 kWh).
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Not to belabor the point, but the Tesla isn't exactly "in production" right now; not one has yet been delivered. We are expecting it. The Tesla, like the t-zero, must operate at higher voltage and much higher power than the VOLT. The RAV4-EV, which like the VOLT won't be fast, operates at 288v with PM 3-ph motors.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
NiMH RAV4-EV pack, perfect for the VOLT, would not work on Tesla or T-zero, which needs immense power, up to 150 kW (200 hp). Ironically, engineers went to Lithium because good Lead batteries were not available at that time. NiMH would NOT be suitable for this configuration; the most the RAV4-EV puts out is about 60 kW. NiMH just won't take the same abuse as Lead or Lithium. However, it WAS enough for the 1999 EV1, fast, but not as fast as with Lead batteries.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The Tesla hardware is worth the $100K. It's based on the ACP T-zero, which has 100 banks in series of 68 parallel 18-650 Lithium cells.
Thus, Lithium has a discharge curve around 3.6v, it operates at 360v nominal, and that's why it's so fast. The Tesla uses this base proven technology, the question is whether it can be brought into production and what the cycle-life is.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Battery technology is somewhat technical.
1. Deep-cycle, not hurt by putting out at least 25 kWh, 100 miles range;
2. Cycle-life, being able to do this for at least 1000 times, preferrably 2000 times (100K to 200K battery life);
3. Sufficient power to start off without an IC engine.
This all goes into life-cycle cost. NiMH is superior to lead which beats Lithium.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Lithium batteries work in small appliances such as cell phones and computers. The Tesla uses 6800 of the 18-650 Lithium commodity laptop batteries.
When used in an auto, however, some say cycle-life is an issue. That means after 30,000 or 50,000 miles, there may be battery degradation. This problem may or may not have been solved with Lithium.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Well as you may know, the UAW and GM were recently rewriting their long term contract. Well one of the parts of this contract was for GM to ensure the UAW they will continue to produce specific vehicles in specific plants to prevent anymore job losses.
One of the vehicles mentioned on the contact is the Volt. They're locked in now. They have to make it.
LovePontiac 4 years ago
I hope so. However, GM has also been perfidious with its own workers, they may be saying that so they can pull the rug out when they claim the batteries failed.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Maybe the cost is part of why they're using li-ion. GM is barely staying in business right now with their profitable full size vehicles, and comparatively "high maintenance" gas only cars.
If they lose maintenance as a major form of income, they need to get it back from somewhere. Especially with how quickly they are losing US market share. I personally believe that's why they are so focused on E85 and Hydrogen.
LovePontiac 4 years ago
Not a bad idea, but the problem is GM is relying upon suppliers. So GM would not be making the profit on the batteries.
And there are many, many fanciful Lithium battery companies, and sob stories too about battery failures or fire-cracker events.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
GM has no intention of bringing back the electric car. They killed the last of them just barely two years ago; this Volt is just a PR exercise.
GM is going to postpone until the RAV4-EV are all gone, they hope. Listen to my latest video to be posted tonight.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Are you really the guy in the video? Your text comments are considerably more crazy than the comments made in the video. In fact you sound a lot like tribluered.
GM already wishes they didn't discontinue the EV1 because it was such bad PR. If they didn't follow through with the Volt, it would be much much worse.
The Volt already had it's own design studio and 2 concepts based on it's architecture (platform). They want the Volt to happen just as much as we do.
LovePontiac 4 years ago
The batteries are critical. Any company going into the EV busines must own:
1. The batteries.
2. The motor-controller.
GM has neither. The only proven batteries are Lead and NiMH. Lithium is a sham, no one has gotten it to work in an EV. It has unacceptable life-cycle cost and a shelf-life issue.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
What do you mean he sounds like me? He knows more than me. Anyways hes right, no one has fully tested li-ion. But that doesn't mean li-ion is not going to last long. But still NiMH is the best choice. The volt is only a publicity stunt, everyone knows it. Why not you? GM has no support for EVs. They are relying on other companies to supply them.
tribluered 4 years ago
If they wanted profit from the batteries, they would buy cheaper NiMH batteries and jack up the price to the customers. Not buy expensive Li-ion batteries and charge a low price.
Or build a battery factory!
tribluered 4 years ago
Why are you targeting GM? Who cares what batteries they plan on using. At least they are willing to bring back the electric car. Something Toyota, and all other major automakers haven't pledged to do.
LovePontiac 4 years ago
M., I guess it boils down to just not trusting that GM is serious. Considering how ignorant GM is about how an EV works, I think caution is justified. It was barely two years ago that GM arrested rather than take money from would-be customers.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Z, this argument that "Ni is damaging" is disingenuous. Everything has an impact; even regenerative systems. But compare the cost of drilling oil, fighting oil wars, and what's left afte burning the oil, with recyclable Ni. We know something about this, perhaps you would like a scholium on the issue?
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Z, there's a big, big difference between Lithium working in power tools (I have one too) and working in an EV. We know something about that; the good things, and the bad. If A123 performs, I'll be surprised; I doubt if GM knows enough to evaluate. Lutz doesn't know a life cycle from a cycle life!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The videos speak for themselves. I just drive by at random, to check it out; this is the first time I've taken videos. Next, I'll show both, deserted Chevy lot and bustling Toyota and Nissan lots. The point is, GM failed to meet customer demand.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
One more thing, the reason to use NiMH is because they are proven, and work. Lithium is not proven to work in an EV; in fact, there are many failures, which you would probably be too bored to study.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
People stood in the rain for 28 days for the mere chance of getting one. To make that EV1, I'm informed, would take perhaps two years, from scratch; but there's already a factory, it's not used, and the skilled folks are available. The design is known, the subcontractors would be the only holdup. I bet a good M.E. could fix that. Too bad GM doesn not have even one??
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Don't forget, it was engineers who made the EV1, they are still around, the plans are there, and insiders have confidentially informed me that the EV1 staff has been laid off, and is available in what is now an empty factory if only GM wished to do so.
Today's article in the WSJ by Joseph White points out that GM's real problem may be BORING CARS. THE EV1 WAS NOT BORING!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
The facts are sitting in the drive. We ONLY charge it via the Regen braking shunt, NEVER via the magnecharger.
When you say "minimal", you obviously illustrate your own ignorance about EVs and charging them up. Many phony engineers argue falsely against a plug-in serial hybrid; perhaps they are paid a dime-a-line by GM, like some phony agents provocateur.
Don't forget, GM already had the plug-in serial hybrid in 1969! It was an Olds.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
There is no heat problem when recharging the RAV4-EV NiMH battery pack (EV-95 batteries) from PURE REGEN BRAKING, as shown in this video!
Like Bob Lutz, these ignorant posters won't believe their own eyes, won't investigate the facts, and refuse to learn.
One might almost think they were paid by the word to post!
Look at this video, and behold direct contradiction to their mis-statements.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
This video shows that the RAV4-EV with a range-extender is generically THE SAME as a Volt.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Think about it. If the RAV4-EV is able to drive without an IC range-extender, adding one would take the strain OFF the batteries, not increas it.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You didn't see the video: I CAN CHARGE MY RAV4-EV ON 120 V
liveoilfree 4 years ago
First, the strain on the batteries is EXACTLY THE SAME, so long as the engine-generator is not used. If it is, the strain is LESS.
A123 is not proven, it's a hypothetical.
And Lithium metal is more expensive than Nickel.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Read about the EV1, or take a ride in one of the hundreds of RAV4-EV. You don't know about batteries or EVs, or else you are perhaps working for GM.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
So you just dismiss it as "old"? What are some reasons?
Watch my video and learn something.
liveoilfree 4 years ago