Was Iraq Worth It? - General Jack Keane

[techcafe]

"Iraqi society today, thanks to 'American help', is defined by house raids, death squads, check points, detentions, curfews, blood in the streets, and constant violence." ~ Dahlia Wasfi, Iraqi doctor | /watch?v=LCOqF8gZeh8&hd=1

[MrJs1G]

I love how most of the comments on this forum purport to show how "wrong" General Keane is but fail to do so in a civilized and intelligent manner. No corrborated evidence - just asinine and unfounded claims about how General Keane is white, he hasn't lived there, and how everybody who supports the war is a fool.

Please say something substantive.

[VMA225]

Check out Bishop Dubois High School 1960 on You Tube. There is a picture of a student named John Michael Keane anong the graduates. This is the future General Jack Keane !!!

[eug3nius]

Yeah, if the americans left, the present governement would remain in office, that is how much of a democracy Iraq is ... so worthy of admiration and imitation. Nevermind the 1000 years old traditions.

These people think we're idiots ... or maybe even braindead. :)

[LYNCHMOBBx911]

100000+ rotting corpses. who the fuc is he to say it was worth it. fuck him i wish he was a part of that statistic. I wonder if the dead and thier families think it was worth it?

[sailcats77]

I don't wonder for the most part. I'd say since the vast majority of American soldiers volunteered for their service, went honorably there to fight, and since they've now freed what was a nation in slavery, that those who were killed and their families would never disrespect the fallen so much as to think it wasn't worth it.

The disrespect is using their sacrifice as a means to invoke the emotions to want to surrender.

If you say it wasn't worth it, just say you'd rather let evil prevail.

[PeterSodhi]

What a load of nonsense this fuking traitorous retard are speaking. If the War of Revolution was being fought he would be fighting for the British and Washington would have had him hung. He is a cunt.

[abrams0000]

Sadam had to go.......why? He was the best god dam ally the U.S. had in that region. Ever heard throughout world history "the balance of power)?? First of all we propped Sadam's regime on in the first place thanks to Rummy and Cheney. We gave him the weapons to kill a million Iranians in an 8 year war. Now we've allowed Iran to become the biggest benefactor in these negotiations. I suppose you knew that Cheney is a 5 time Nam draft dodger that oversaw this Iraq war. Pretty amazing isn't it?

[allgoo19]

What you expect him to say?

He's a lobbyist for the defense industry for god sake!

watch?v=0z2Ld79i-jU

[Dhaune]

the biggest bullshit i heard today, except maybe for south park :)

[jamesbogus21]

im a soldier and i spent 10 months in iraq. what we are doing there is important we overthrew a genocidal, torturous, fascist dictator and set up a democracy. its not perfect. i wonder if people were agaist fighting the genocidal, torturous, fascist dictator of germany in 1944. the iraq war was long overdue

[Dhaune]

you cant compare iraqis with the nazis, but do you honestly believe that you were sent there to help them, then why is your so perfect government killing your own soldiers? do you know how many soldiers died because of IEDs, they knew how many are dying every month cuz of roadside bombs and still they were sending them on road patrols in hummers, oh and do you know anything about anthrax vaccine?

[jamesbogus21]

first, i found out the iraqi people are pretty cool through my experiance there, i would never compare iraqis to nazis, i compared saddam to hitler, and i used three adj. to draw a parallel. second im guessing your not american since you refer to the gov't in the second person but my gov't is not killing my fellow soldiers, the taliban insurgency is, because they wish to reestablish islamofascist rule. i ask you why would the american gov't wish to purposefully kill its own soldiers as u imply

[Dhaune]

simple answer, money

[sailcats77]

"why would the american gov't wish to purposefully kill its own soldiers as u imply "

"simple answer, money " - dhaune

This makes no sense, since we stand to make no money in Iraq.

[LYNCHMOBBx911]

@sailcats77 -

money exchanged hands from our pockets to someone elses. right? Haliburton? Dynacorp? Boeing? International? General Dynamics? KBR?

etc...........................­.....? remember what eisenhower said? war is a big business for the people who are in it.

[sailcats77]

lynchmobb, wow 8 months old. Sure money must exchange hands. When we have a mission & only so many entities that can perform parts of that mission, those entities must be funded. Basic fact.

What was being discussed was whether the American govt purposefully sent troops to war in order to die for the primary purpose of someone making money, or whether we were fulfilling our obligations of UN resolution 1441 without backing down, and funding was a natural result of that.

The later.

[sailcats77]

Another way of putting it is cause/effect. You seem to claim the cause of the war was someone in govt wanting to make money.

I disagree based on the fact that there were numerous unanimously passed UN resolutions including 1441 that gave specific conditions for Iraq under which we wouldn't need to invade. They failed to unhold their obligations, repeatedly. They were ruled by an evil murderous dictator. War isn't free. Therefore I say $ exchange was a necessary effect, not the cause.

[LYNCHMOBBx911]

@sailcats77 -- so why havent we invaded korea? oh yeah, theyre not defenseless and havent got natural resources. come with some more crap please

[sailcats77]

lynchmobb, perhaps you can answer your own question about why we haven't invaded (north) korea...

Is there a unanimously passed UN resolution analogous to UN resolution 1441 (and others) that authorize use of military force if Korea doesn't comply with its obligations, as a result of the USA allowing them to retreat from a previous war, like we allowed Iraq to retreat from Kuwait during the Persian Gulf War?

No I thought not.

[sailcats77]

By the way lynchmobb, since you say you served, thank you for that service. With it you have helped defend the greatest, freest nation the world has ever seen.

I hope you never regret having done so. The vast majority of your fellow citizens are sincerely grateful for your service and all those who serve.

[jamesbogus21]

Part 2 i must point out to you that when you refer to my perfect gov't that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. i also do not appreciate your choice of words when you refer to soldiers being "sent" on road patrols, we have an army of volenteers, those were all good men some of them my friends and they did not die for nothing, how dare you sir!! . i do not know anything about anthrax vaccines please indulge me and cite sources if you can

[Dhaune]

yes i know that they did not die for nothing, i respect soldiers but i also respect all the people who are dying all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan, as for the anthrax vaccine check it out here on youtube,,,, i respect soldiers with all my heart, but if one soldier dies it is still one too many, soldiers and peoples safety should be the top priority and not the operations or missions, but the truth is that politicians simply do not care

[sailcats77]

"soldiers and peoples safety should be the top priority"

Dhaune you should consider if safety was always the priority, then no war would ever be fought because we would always just surrender.

The USA wouldn't exist. WWI or WWII would've resulted in the world speaking German/Japanese.

Safety is NEVER the right goal in and of itself. Morality, freedom and principle should be our goals. Living up to out founding principles and following through ... including on UN resolution 1441.

[jamesbogus21]

you argue that my gov't is taking advantage of me, and fellow sodiers and this is respect. you can not support the troops and oppose the war for the latter decreases morale of the former. i think i speak for many of my brothers in arms when i say that civilians can never understand that i am fully prpared to die for the mission. in this case an iraq free from islamofascism, because the mission is more important than i.

[abrams0000]

Now hold tight James - I'm a 2 tour Nam vet so I DO KNOW your position. To say that not supporting the mission is not supporting the troops is bullshit. Do you support your wife even though she made a big mistake on a particular issue?? Do you think these bureaucrats in D.C. who have never put themselves in harms way might have ulterior motives in sending Americans in harms way. How many of their kids are in the Middle East? Very very few. Think oil might have something to do with it?

[jamesbogus21]

it does not matter how many politician's children enlist because there is no draft. i respect that you are a vet. but you are totally wrong, the politics surrounding our respective wars are different. it does not matter about ulterior motives of bureaucrats because saddam had to go, even if he did not pose a threat. frankly the war was overdue saddam was, although less successful, just as evil as hitler. and when the populous opposes the war it does hurt morale of troops

[abrams0000]

Did you ever think that maybe the populace might know more than the troops? It worked out that way in Nam. The morale of the troops can also be affected by poor policy making in D.C. ever think of that? Evil you say - Why not take out the dictatorship in the Sudan, how about the dangerous N. Korea, far more dangerous than Sadam was. Just know this, empires whether they win wars or not collapse for going broke just fighting them. Ever heard of Rome the Ottomans, the British empires??

[tattootomorrow]

Any amount of torture, death, war, and immoral freakish behavior is worth it to Republicans, they pay none of the costs. What preposterous and terrible individuals.

Never vote Republican.

[theforeigner85]

I bet you believe that the democrats are paying for the bailout, don't you?

[tattootomorrow]

I think the banks are robbing us blind. Geitner and Sommers are terrible individuals who seem incapable of imposing decent regulation or ensuring our money isn't wasted in rich corrupt ceo mansions.

I bet your thoughts on torture are too complex and involve giving the psychopaths amongst us leeway.

[theforeigner85]

Name me a country or politician who has ever "imposed decent regulation".

[calmguy05]

What ????????????? Iranians lost ? Iranian role is growing everyday because of your stupid policy ... and yea right the democracy of Gitmo & Abu Gurayeb is very promising !

[abrams0000]

foreigner - you people never learn:

George Santayana -

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

And who have you chosen to die in these lands foreigner? Have you served in combat? If not are you willing to give your life for US corporations and their leaders who also have never served. Annex, occupy it's all semantics - mark my word we will fail militarily in Afghanistan. Why do you suppose the Europeans refuse to send more troops there?

[abrams0000]

How in the hell can he say that Iran is the strategic loser here???? We did their dirty work by eliminating their mortal enemy Sadam, and screwed up the balance of power in the region....I must be missing something here. Think AIPAC paid this guy???

[theforeigner85]

Iraq has a much greater chance of being a regional power now that the sanctions are lifted, but this time it'll be a regional power that is Muslim, Arab, relatively more modern and educated and a military and economic partner of the United States.

The religious parties Iran backed have suffered a huge blow in iraqi elections; its shia militias defeated, disarmed or in retreat.

Iran loses big time, the balance of power has been upset but not in the way you're suggesting.

[abrams0000]

Economic and military partner of the US??? Dream on my friend, ethnic strife is rearing its ugly head once again. Iran WILL complete its nuclear program and be the main Muslim power base in that region that will challenge Israeli hegemony. On the other hand why shouldn't they? Who says that the illegitimate state of Israel should be the only nation in that region with nuclear weapons? The war in Afghanistan will never be won either. The UK, USSR, Ottomans failed and so shall the US.

[theforeigner85]

"On the other hand why shouldn't they?"

Because they value martyrdom and death, and mutually assured destruction is the only thing that has kept a nuclear exchange from happening so far, and because they openly fund and support terrorist groups, and chant a daily government-recommended "Death to America" which is exceptionally beligerrent and hostile behaviour. And, because their military is in the hands of an ignorant superstitous theocrat who believes Jesus is returning to kill all pigs.

[theforeigner85]

"The war in Afghanistan will never be won either. The UK, USSR, Ottomans failed and so shall the US. "

You're comparing empires that wanted to annex Afghanistan with the United States which removed a vicious gang of thuggish murderers, hated by Afghans, to allow for a government chosen by Afghans, which is much more progressive and much less oppressive, with no intention of controlling or annexing the country?

The UK, USSR, and Ottomans had very different objectives from NATO.

[blackiron60]

To be blunt, this guy is full of shit.

[Hooya2]

I find it interesting that he uses the confirmed violent death number, rather than the mortality analysis of average death rates published by John Hopkins. Those rates take damage to medical infrastructure into account, and so are more reliable. If he had used them, it would be above 650k, rather than 100k.

As to Iraq's usefulness... maybe. Saddam was a monster, and I'm glad to be rid of him, but I'm not getting my hopes up that Iraqi democracy will last.

[theforeigner85]

The John Hopkins study is much older (3 years old now I believe), and surveyed much fewer homes so the sample was much smaller than newer studies, and is considered to be inaccurate because it took samples from areas particularly hard-hit by violence so it didn't accurately portray the level of violence and deaths throughout the country.

The latest Iraqi government figures, just released this week put the figure at around 80-90 000 innocent deaths.

[SaltyCaptianEcuador]

If white America told the truth for one day it would fall apart.

[kellaneric]

Why do we insist on starting wars? leave the world alone America. Stop letting our Government start wars in our name. Do yall really beleive all this shit?

[mikezephyr]

this system would collapse without the widespread use and normalization of violence. that's modern states were created for.

from its earliest days to today, the US is an occupier.

[kellaneric]

Thats is exactly what I'm hoping for. Whats wrong with the crash of Capitalism, the crash of the 1st world plundering the 3rd world so that we can eat exotic fruits and buy cheap clothes? fuck this system. Use Permaculture!

peace

one love

[ChuckyHammer]

your declaration of the failure of Capitalism is certainly premature. Capitalism is the only system that can adapt to changing conditions. Look at communism or even social democratic Europe which is presently disintegrating and falling apart as a "European" culture.

[mikezephyr]

you're right, it lasted for three or four centuries already. however, that capitalism is adaptable is no argument that it is democratic.

from every destructive/creative crisis, you witness the great centralization of power and class rule. the tendency is towards monopolization or oligopoly reinforces the strength of state and capital- and all the bourgeois rushing to save the profit-motive and cushy consumerism is proof perfect of that.

[ChuckyHammer]

The only point I was commenting on was its adaptability and not its concentration of power.

However I disagree with you, as while far from perfect, I see no system more democratic, and capable of preserving freedom. Look at Europe today, and it is less free then the United States which is more capitalistic. Preservation of personal freedoms are more secure in a country like the USA then Europe.

[itsabomberscope]

Was it worth it? It was for the murdering USA, for the poor fucking people in IRAQ all they will get is mcdonalds, and terrible TV. Democracy isnt democracy if is forced on you by bombs and guns.

[k166a]

I think the biggest problem people had with the Iraq war was that we were duped into it.

If the goal from the start was clearly to "make an island of democracy in the middle east" then I don't think as many people would be so pissed about it.

Of course, had Bush said that was the goal from the start, not as many people would have gone along with it either...

[Saktoth]

How many people have to die for that island of democracy? How many years of instability, poverty, and violence?

Even if this does end up good for Iraq in the long run, who is to say that the end justifies the means?

If the US wants to go about saving countries from themselves, it should have gone into Sudan. There was actual genocide going on at the time that they could have prevented. There are better uses for billions of military dollars and thousands of lives.

[ferrozm]

The ends never justifies the means. Thousands of innocent people died. We will never know the unintended consequences this war will bring us.

[italianchappy]

Indeed, Italy occupation:

60,000 US and UK soldiers killed

443,000 italians (130,000 civilians) killed.

However it made my country free twice, from fascism and nazism and from communism too. Hence the issue is not the means but whether Iraq has or has not the possibilities of being a free country as Italy had. In other words we don't know if muslim countries can be liberated.

[italianchappy]

From the previous data alone and the military point of view the Iraq campaign was more successful than the italian one. The fact is that here, after a brief period of civil war, we had a republic and a democracy, meanwhile iraqi keep slaughtering their own fellow countrymen, at least by now. My opinion is that we need still time to see if this campaign was successful as the italian one was. Maybe some years from now Iraq will flourish or not. My only doubt is islamism.

[Re5Publica]

"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing." - Oscar Wilde

A government by consent in a country which is no longer ruled by a psychopath and his sadistic sons is an end that couldn't have been achieved without conflict.

It's a matter of principle, would you allow Saddam to mass murder his own people to maintain his police state? Or would you put people in harms way to liberate the nation from it?

[humanist7117]

Bitter divisions? Media hype?

[DoctorMontalban]

Of course the neo-cons had to use force to "spread democracy"....I mean how else were they going to exploit another country for its resources? It's white-man karate....no mercy. How's Darfur doing? I haven't heard much about it lately :(

[arequipa1]

oh get over your conspiracy theories plz

[LettersToWashington]

For the families of those thousands who have died, the war may not seem worth it. According to the CIA, the war has lead to an increase in anti American bias and terrorist requirement. The gov't thwarted a planning of a coup in its initial phases only months ago so overthrow remains a possibility (ex Iran 1979). However, the US removed an obstacle for American hegemony in the region and opened Iraq's oil fields for exploitation by Western energy companies. The answer is not black and white.

[imstillwalking]

Do you realize between 9/11 & the Bush administration, Osama bin Laden & his cohorts have accomplished exactly what they wanted? What is it, $10 billion/week to fight these wars? It wasn't the housing bubble (ok, yeah, that's part of it), but it is the war expenditures over the last 8 years that could have fixed every road, healthcare, energy, global warming, education, but instead it was squandered for something that will show no return & all the dead & wounded. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.Way2Go

[kilaal]

shut up

[crydixxx]

Just what I would expect from a sheep. One that doesn't even know how to reply properly to a post. Shut up, yeah....SO mature lol Did I hurt your feelings with a dose of REALITY? WAKE UP!

[crydixxx]

I wish I could give this a ZERO star rating!

[arequipa1]

too bad, so sad. i'll give it five stars to offset you

[crydixxx]

Isn't their an age requirement for You Tube? I didn't know childish 10 y/olds were allowed

arequipa1

[arequipa1]

just like lefties to want to silence political opposition

[crydixxx]

Wow, you are very naive and senseless.

[arequipa1]

you don't know me

[crydixxx]

I don't need to know you to tell that much...It's obvious.

[arequipa1]

(you people are boring and you're all the same)

[crydixxx]

(You children are uninformed, stupid and blind)

[arequipa1]

get a job, clean up, cut your hair and join the human race, my friend

[crydixxx]

FORA, you should be embarrassed for posting this GARBAGE!

[crydixxx]

You have GOT to be kidding me LOL what a pathetic JOKE!. A hundred thousand dead Iraqi's? Try 1,600,000, 46% of which are women and children. This is SUCH New World Order propaganda. Yes, spreading democracy, what a load of bullshit that is. I see by some of the comments that people are still buying this spreading democracy load of crap, WAKE UP! They are there for the energy, to establish a base to strike Iran, Pakistan and Syria and a few other reasons I won't elaborate on. This is a JOKE!

[GOPsithlord]

Its going to take time but when all is said and done, Iraq will have been worth it, provided the endgame is not a contrived, zero sum sacrifice to make "peace" with Iran, forgetting that they are currently engaged in proxy war with us in Iraq through use of surogates.

[lumpfish99]

this guys an idiot.

[fielsjd]

How does the moderator sneak in the 100,000 dead Iraqis claim as though it's not many times larger than that. It's like saying, in passing, that half a million Jews were killed during the holocaust.

[Bobbiethejean]

This is a good point. I have read that close to a million innocent Iraqis died. I don't know how true that statement is, but the death toll is way above 100,000 for sure.

[prognost]

I don't think it's realistic or morally right to try and spread democracy by force. And I don't think Iraq was "worth it" as this guy says. But, if in the end Iraq winds up as a stable democracy in the heart of the Middle East, then at least something good will have come out of all of this evil. I suppose its better that Iraq ends up as a democracy ravaged by war than as a dictatorship ravaged by war.

[imstillwalking]

We'll make a country a democracy if we have to beat the shit out of them. What a message. That's why we're loved by so many for so little.

I get what you're saying, but maybe democracy has to come in its own time. It can't be forced on anyone.

[daejinko100]

disgusting nationalist!

[CitizenCindy]

Was Iraq worth it? No. Saying that that took a lot less than 126 seconds.

[HellWithPoverty]

Wow. Absolutely incredible people can still believe this non-sense.

Iraq does not want to be allied with Iran? /facepalm

[nickd4818]

idk see how the iranians are losers. they have a friendly government in Baghdad now. Husein wouldnt sit on his hands while they developed nuclear weapons. We removed a man that killed over a million Iranians. They should be sending us thank you cards.

Doesnt matter, the Israeli's are going to give them some change they wont believe in soon enough.

[jvittetoe]

another arrogant white male from the west.

[nickd4818]

shut up

[medliberty]

I like the way this guy knows all about what is good for that area of the world. The arrogance is amazing. And the interviewer was wrong in his opening statement. According to the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health study (published in Lancet), the no. of dead Iraqis is closer to one million, not 100,000. What a disgrace! Its all about oil.

[MrJs1G]

@medliberty

Errant nonesense. The ORB / Lancett Study has been discredited by almost every single peer review and statisitcal study which has reviewed the metholdology it used.

"all about oil"

- Please, point me to the fact which implies this. If one views the number of barrels of oil the US has imported from Iraq before the war, he or she will observe that this number has had a pattern of declination 2003 onwards. Of course, you haven't seen *this* evidence, have you?

[merdufer]

once again, somebody speaks at hoover, and people suffer somewhere else.

[malerror]

who cares if its a democrazy? He is crazy.

[WhyNotTruth]

Interesting that all reports say that Iran is stronger now that Saddam is gone...

[Andybaby]

I believe him. We should invent WMD's for ALL Nations on earth, and slaughter their citizens so they can all benefit from this wonderful war.

[llshamelessll]

ask the iraqi people if they are happy, not some fatcat that doesnt have to live there. they dont look happy to me. they dont look like they are willing to fight for their own freedom, so how are they going to have freedom.

[spikesmth]

I hope I have to tell my children I was wrong to oppose this war... but so far I haven't seen anything what he's talking about coming about. Iraq needs to take it's U.S. training wheels off and fly or fall. Either way... the number of lives lost on both sides for a LIE makes it very hard to say it has been worth it so far.

[oldhacks]

someone in the audience should've thrown a shoe at him

[regelemihai]

@oldhacks

Why?

[oldhacks]

@regelemihai haha! voted best comment! :p

[regelemihai]

@oldhacks

Excellent answer. 

[ernestshelley]

Hogwash, complete hogwash!!!!

[oldhacks]

this guy thinks its so great why doesn't he move there?

[n8iveidiot13]

i doubt you know anything about the background of the middle east

[kshackleton]

He drank the Kool-aid a long time ago.

[soundscapenyc]

could Kean be any more delusional?

[oldhacks]

he's just about as delusional as libertarians.

[jesuschrustpizza]

The righteous United States is accountable to no one but God. God Bless America!!!!

[wmg111]

I guess to a retired general the thought of over 100,000 dead people is a justifiable expense.

The disturbing thing is that they probably sleep very well at night.

[okee7]

Worth it ? General how long and how many more lives will it take to achieve what you plan for Iraq.

A buffer state - What happens when the allies withdraw.

A fledging democracy - Overnight !

[Ryguy1450]

Iran is the big winner. US is the big losers. THis guys is a piece of shit.

THE MONARCHIES THAT EXIST IN THE SUNNI ARAB STATES ARE BACKED BY THE US!!!!! BS DEMOCRACY!

JACK KEANE SUCKS DICK.

[MementoExpose]

Yes we are worth it believe me !