Can you tell the difference?? Sacred music vs. secular music at Mass.

[buttercupjag]

i love the old styles of music what's so wrong with our Caribbean music? it's syncopated and catchy and nobody starts to wine down in church. is it wrong to dance in praise to God?not all parts of the mas are sorrowful. David danced for God why can't we? Praise is praise an God knows our hearts. make a joyful noise unto the Lord whether it be clashing or clanging of symbols whatever happened to that. no one is saying start a heavy metal praise song cuz that doesnt make one at peace but still....

[CathPresbyter]

@buttercupjag Yes indeed David danced before the presence of the Lord, but as Ecclesiastes tells us "A time for every matter under heaven."(Ecc 3:1) Solomon draws distinctions, between birth & death, killing & healing, weeping & mourning. So with dancing there is its anthesis. "A time to mourn"(Ecc 3:4) followed by dancing. The mass is not the time to dance. It is the once for all sacrifice of the Cross made present sacramentally. Was St. John or Mary dancing at the foot of the Cross?

[fool1shmortal]

Unless you were saying, Journeyman, that chant is too difficult to do and complicates participation. If you go often enough, you get a feel for the rhythm of what you participate in. The Gregorian chant from the choir can be taught. We have an amateur choir, so it's not like going to a concert. It's not perfect.

There are time-honored principles of beauty in art, so validating drums and guitars as part of changes in aesthetics and jazzy music is bad logic.

[JourneymanAlto]

@fool1shmortal

Chant too difficult? No! Our choir sings a lot of chant -- straight Gregorian, Gregorian with organum, and Anglican 4-part chant. It's not difficult if properly taught. I had never learned Gregorian or the Solesmes notation before I converted in 2004. Not difficult to learn at all!

I think the Holy Father has the best take on the whole drums-and-guitars nonsense. Commercial music is intended to stir emotions and to SELL, not to worship God.

[fool1shmortal]

@JourneymanAlto Oh good! I agree. It'll never be "relevant", because it'll never be as cool, in the secular understanding, as the secular music, except to those who want it to be. Traditional Mass music is powerful. No one thinks the Buddhist chant is 2 old-fashioned 4 today's Buddhists. Outside of Western Buddhist wannabes, I've never heard of Buddhist rock. High church Church of England believers still get a lot that our church leaders threw out decades ago. It's not irrelevant to them.

[hartleymartin]

@fool1shmortal - Chant isn't hard. In fact it is usually the trained musician who finds it hard since they are so used to modern notation that the old square-note style with 4 line stave proves to be a stumbling block. People who have never been trained in music before can usually pick it up quickly enough.

[Gwenhwyvar]

Perhaps it is because I am not Catholic, but I find the idea that there are instruments not suited to praise God completely outside of Scripture. Whatever happened to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord?" Whatever happened to good news? The celebration of God should always be held with wonder and reverence. Mistaking tradition for love is always a mistake, and is one of the reasons people run from the church. Love is genuine, tradition is rote.

[Drasai]

@Gwenhwyvar

No one has said that certain instruments are not suitable for praising God. These comments only apply to liturgical music, since we understand liturgy within a continuous hermeneutic that stretches back to the apostles. Other forms of music are suitable for praising God in other circumstances, just not during liturgy.

[fool1shmortal]

@Gwenhwyvar Traditional music is joyful to the soul, not always for the flesh (the former being most important). If you need dancin' music, you need sensual stimulants. I even heard a minister on a Protestant-style radio station speaking against sensual worship. Granted, some might get a high from chant, but people used to go to low Masses, which had no music. One thing black churches do that's right, as I've heard before, is they don't go banging drums, which moves the soul the wrong way.

[japotillor]

i'm sure that you didn't intend this, re-inactment does not mean re-crucified. :), but very good..

[fool1shmortal]

I think the threat of excommunication, interdict, censure or whatever can be done to enforce what they order would save the expense of Swiss Guards. I'm not the priests' boss. They (higher clergy) need to be big boys and do their jobs.

[Drasai]

@fool1shmortal But the clergy are the servants of the laity. Historically, the laity have had a bigger role to play in preserving tradition than the clergy, and I don't think these times are much different. True reform needs to be initiated by the laity, who can then call upon the clergy for support. Most priests prefer things to work this way anyway.

[hartleymartin]

@Drasai - And you will find that there are plenty of laity who are sick of poor-quality music and attend masses at Cathedrals, by-passing several parish churches on the way!

The laity play a major role, however they look to the clergy to lead and guide them. Every nation needs its sovereign, every ship has its captain, every team has its leader and every congregation has its priest/pastor to lead and guide.

[jmjdcc]

Point of doctrine. The mass is NOT a re-enactment of the Crucifixion, as you suggested at 4.05 and 5.23 on the video. It is a RE-PRESENTATION. Very different realities. Re-enactment suggests symbolism. It is the same Sacrifice, offered once for all (refer to all those readings from Hebrews we've been having lately.) Re-presentation means to literally make present that Sacrifice, transcending all temporal reality.

[Drasai]

@jmjdcc I don't think it's supposed to be a theological treatise on the Mass. In any case, by your definitions, it is *both* a reenactment and a representation. It is both a symbol of the thing and a representation of the thing itself.

[itubeyoublah]

one sister has a dots on the upper left of her chin and left collarbone, and they part their hair on opposite sides; both are very pretty; a date would be great

[etnocnad]

It can't sound like an opera or a symphony either! No Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and certainly no Verdi!

[libraryjim59]

I wish she would have given more examples of modern music groups/composers that ARE acceptable (John Michael Talbot; St. Louis Jesuits), and why they are and others (Amy Grant; Third Day; Robin Mark) are not.

[GuyWhoPrays]

LifeTeen sucks.

[JourneymanAlto]

@GuyWhoPrays

Let me tell you about my Life Teen experience. We were out of town, and my 22 year old daughter was the youngest person at the "teen Mass" - mostly 55+ squeaking in under the wire for their Sunday obligation. The "band" was a screechy 50ish lady, an off-duty priest with an out of tune guitar, and an old guy with a grey ponytail and beard and a tambourine. Words to songs were on mimeographed sheets, no music. Rotten old 70s ditties, Kumbaya vintage. Truly AWFUL.

[hartleymartin]

@JourneymanAlto - I find what you say to be so true. The biggest advocates of so-called "Youth Music" are rarely young people themselves. In fact, young people will tend to play whatever music that they are told is good for liturgy, and few have any concept of music supporting the liturgy and not just being interludes or entertainment.

[JourneymanAlto]

And, yahoube, if more parishes would just play and sing Haydn, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not only his great Masses, but his occasional pieces that can be managed by any decent choir.

Just because Haugen and Haas begin with "H" does NOT mean they should be mentioned in the same breath with Franz Joseph.

[JourneymanAlto]

As a choir singer and convert to Catholicism, I can tell you that the Vatican's very sensible instructions are not "pious delusion" or for "a few snobby aesthetes". The Episcopalians and Presbyterians follow most of the good advice. That's why (as Thomas Day says) 50 elderly Episcopalians sing louder than 300 Catholics.

And the stuff that passes for music in some Catholic parishes discourages any sort of participation -- much more difficult to sing than chant or straight up hymns.

[fool1shmortal]

@JourneymanAlto Thank you!

[rogue63]

Are these commenters serious? Have these guys read any legislation or instructions on sacred music? First of all, of the seven quotes listed by date, five were written either during or after Vatican II. Do people truly have that much trouble with math? And besides, what does "popular participation" mean, after all? Does the writer mean participatio actuosa, the Latin phrase chosen by the council Fathers? I didn't read "participatio populi" anywhere at all, but perhaps my Latin is rusty.

[yahoube]

A disagreeable video, distasteful even. It's meaningless to talk about 'restoration' of something that chiefly exists as pious delusion for a few snobby aesthetes who can't accept the Church's vision of popular participation in the liturgy. As Haydn famously put it: "At the thought of God my heart leaps for joy and I cannot help my music doing the same."

[gatherusin]

Thankfully this video, or group, is not promoted by any authority in the Church. This is simply hand-picking quotes - many from before the 2nd Vatican Council!! - and pushing a personal agenda.

[TVWriterGuy]

I recently converted to Catholicism because of the Protestant pop trends. Excuse me, I meant, "Worship Centers" where hymnals are replaced with PowerPoint projectors, hymns are replaced with emotion-pumping dance tunes with trite lyrics, choirs are replaced with praise performance bands, and sermons are replaced with stand-up comedy routines and sketches. "Sunday best" is a thing of the past; now it's beach & barbecue attire. I am sad to find many Catholic parishes follownig the same end.

[RandomHouze]

Folks, let us also be open to how our younger generation experience the divine. 75% of the references in this video are quoted from documents written in the 1950s. We can live in this black-or-white mentality, or we can focus on preaching the Gospel of Love. My prayer today is that our church leaders focus their time, money and energy on saving souls, not pushing them away...Roman Missal translations or the large elephant in the room?...clearly our current path is not working...time to wake up!

[angelakh]

@RandomHouze Actually the 4 of the documents quoted are either from the 2nd Vatican II or came afterward. Moreover, since the liturgical reforms, the younger generations have been leaving, convents are dying out and the number of priestly vocations has gone down. When you use "pop" music for the Mass, what you're using is a poorly done 2nd rate immitation of current trends in music. The youth are NOT loving it.

[fool1shmortal]

Thank you! Now, if the Vatican would enforce these great teachings instead of just talking!

[Drasai]

@fool1shmortal With a roving company of Swiss Guard? It's the role of the bishops to 'enforce' it, and the job of your parish priest to implement it. If he isn't, you need to talk to him, and you need to talk to your music director. Maybe suggest introducing just one chant (Agnus Dei XVIII perhaps) to see how it goes. Most importantly you need to immerse yourself in the chant, using sources like YouTube and MusicaSacra, to learn to love it. Then you can speak from the heart when asked.

[Charlesbex]

Excellent !

Dieu vous bénisse !